S04.E09: Wiedersehen

[Lonesome Rhodes]

If Kim were to go to Kevin and say, "I think I may have figured a way to expedite the building you want in Lubbock, but it will certainly cost more.", Kevin would have gleefully jumped at the opportunity.  He would also have increased regard/admiration for Kim.  He for sure would know not ask just how she was going to make it happen.   ;)

I've been thinking more about Werner's fate.  Perhaps he would simply not survive the escape?  A coati wouldn't harm him, but there sure are a lot of snakes out there, legged and otherwise.  

[SnarkyTart]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Spoiler Alert.  In the Finale, we will find out that Chuck didn't actually die.   His badly burned body was taken to IGH who saved his life and transformed him into a snarky, emotionally unstable, alcoholic, super hero...just like they did with Jane on BB.  

12 months PPD for you!

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, SnarkyTart said:

What I can't predict is how Mesa Verde/Kevin will react when they suddenly learn that the plans have been altered, and with no delay or bureaucratic process involved.  What did Kim think Mesa Verde would do?

I was also wondering how Kim would explain the easy change to MV.  She seems to leave a lot of loose ends in her scams. 

[no10pin]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

I am still pondering the question about how and when Saul came to know Gus' identity as Walt and Jesse's boss.  In Caballo Sin Nombre, when the Salamanca twins are waiting for Walt in his home, Mike calls Vince who then talks to Gus.  Then the twins get a call from Gus.  That ends the episode.  It looks to me they made an effort to make an extra-dramatic reveal that Gus and Mike knew each other. 

 

 

Didn't Saul introduce them?  I seem to recall the part when they had to go through Saul to get another meeting when Jesse showed up wasted the first time.

[Irlandesa]

On 10/2/2018 at 11:52 AM, Bannon said:

I am also starting to wonder, as other posters have speculated, whether Howard had a way to influence the reinstatement board, and put his thumb on the scale. Will he succumb to the urge to gloat, and unintentionally reveal himself to Kim or Jimmy? I don't think the writers are going to wait another year for Jimmy to get his license back (in the time of the show), so I think something has to happen in the appeals process.

No I suspect someone works a miracle at the appeals process whether it's Kim, Jimmy/Saul or maybe even Howard standing up for him. I do not think he was behind the board's decision. There's really no reason for Howard to try and sabotage Jimmy.  He would have nothing to gain.

[SayMyName]

As mentioned by other people, I also suspect Werner was talking in code with his wife. I would guess she would have to come to him as Mike must have searched his possessions and removed identification and passport. My first thought was that she would meet him at the strip club bar as that would be the only place that he knew of...maybe from a napkin with the address on it.

How he gets to/finds the bar without any money is another matter.

[Bannon]

3 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

No I suspect someone works a miracle at the appeals process whether it's Kim, Jimmy/Saul or maybe even Howard standing up for him. I do not think he was behind the board's decision. There's really no reason for Howard to try and sabotage Jimmy.  He would have nothing to gain.

You may be correct, but 7 days a week intelligent people do things out of spite, despite having nothing to gain. Howard's demonstrated himself to be extremely insecure, and his last words to Jimmy were snarled in anger. Angry, insecure, people have been known to engage in behavior like that with some frequency.

3 hours ago, SayMyName said:

As mentioned by other people, I also suspect Werner was talking in code with his wife. I would guess she would have to come to him as Mike must have searched his possessions and removed identification and passport. My first thought was that she would meet him at the strip club bar as that would be the only place that he knew of...maybe from a napkin with the address on it.

How he gets to/finds the bar without any money is another matter.

How is she supposed to get there from Germany in a timely fashion? He had a code for an address in Albuquerque?

[wrlord]

On 10/1/2018 at 9:54 PM, sempervivum said:

I didn't buy the review board's rejection for 'insincerity' either. ! Also, isn't the ABA sort of like the AMA, where you basically have to be caught leaving a scalpel in a patient to be permanently kicked out as a doctor? 

No.  State bars (it's not the ABA) will censure or ultimately disbar an attorney for all manner of ethical breaches, and what Jimmy did was stunningly disbar-able.

[Captanne]

I don't know about anyone else but I was waiting for Jimmy to say "Chuck inspired me" or "Chuck made me love the law" at several points in that interview.  That was clearly (to me) what the lady asking the questions was fishing for.  Chuck was loved and admired by the legal community -- that much has been established over and over again -- she may well have known him (although we were not told anything like that, it is a reasonable assumption.)  

What I found most interesting was that they turned him down after a whole year (That's brutal, Board) and that Jimmy sincerely has written off Chuck's demise.  His lack of tears and mourning seems to be real and genuine (not suppressed or hidden or some other arcane emotional scar reaction.)

There is a bit of an "in the moment" sociopath in Jimmy.  Out of sight is out of mind.  Kim might find that attractive -- or she at least should be aware that if they split up, Jimmy won't look back.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Captanne

[PeterPirate]

8 hours ago, no10pin said:

Didn't Saul introduce them?  I seem to recall the part when they had to go through Saul to get another meeting when Jesse showed up wasted the first time.

Saul told Walt that that his contact (Mike) said a second meeting was not possible.  But Walt went back to El Pollo Hermanos on his own and asked to speak with the owner, whom he correctly discerned was drug kingpin he was looking for.    

 

10 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

If Kim were to go to Kevin and say, "I think I may have figured a way to expedite the building you want in Lubbock, but it will certainly cost more.", Kevin would have gleefully jumped at the opportunity.  He would also have increased regard/admiration for Kim.  He for sure would know not ask just how she was going to make it happen.   ;)   

For all we know, Kim did get Kevin's approval beforehand.  It would have been the prudent thing to do and Kim is generally a prudent person.  After the Save Huell caper it's hard to know what she will do in any situation, though.  

Edited October 4, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Saul told Walt that that his contact (Mike) said a second meeting was not possible.  But Walt went back to El Pollo Hermanos on his own and asked to speak with the owner, whom he correctly discerned was drug kingpin he was looking for.    

 

For all we know, Kim did get Kevin's approval beforehand.  It would have been the prudent thing to do and Kim is generally a prudent person.  After the Save Huell caper it's hard to know what she will do in any situation.  

I doubt she let Kevin in on the scam.  But, she probably told him something like, "Don't get your hopes up, but I think I might be able to expedite the approval on the changes you wanted for Lubbock."

Kim has the veneer of a prudent person, but she has frequently behaved imprudently.  She's no George H.W. Bush. :)

She shacks up with a con artist lawyer.

She committed fraud and ethical violations to help him in his disciplinary hearing.

She did the Huell letter writing scam, which could easily be uncovered.

She blew off her bread and butter client to deal with a pro bono client who didn't want to show up for court.

She pushed Howard to push for D&M to hire Jimmy.

She didn't tell Howard that Jimmy also blindsided her with the unauthorized tv ad.

She took on Gatwood when she was already sleep deprived from MV and could have killed herself or others.

I love Kim, but IMO she is not very prudent.

[Tikichick]

On 10/2/2018 at 12:00 AM, scenario said:

But he hasn't resolved his anger about Chuck. If he tried to say them the words would probably stick in his throat. And if he said the truth that Chuck inspired him to be a lawyer because he wanted to prove to the old SOB that he could do it, It probably wouldn't help his case any. 

He always looked up to someone who told him a few days before he died that he never really liked Jimmy. When it comes to Chuck, I see Jimmy as someone whose inches from flying off the handle whenever Chuck's is mentioned but covering it with a thick layer of indifference. 

IMO it's moreso Jimmy's grief and guilt about Chuck he cannot face.  Part of that grief is extremely complicated because it is enmeshed with Jimmy's complete confusion that the brother he idolized and loved since childhood harbored such extreme animus about him for so long.  It's also the reason Jimmy was in fact incapable of referencing Chuck in relation to his decision to go into law or as having anything at all to do with what the law means to him.  All of it circles back to Chuck for Jimmy, and at this point Chuck = Jimmy's electricity phobia/allergy/aversion.  Saul is Jimmy's foil blanket.  Chuck doesn't exist in the same universe as Saul. 

[Tikichick]

On 10/2/2018 at 7:01 AM, ShadowFacts said:

Lalo is not doing anything but annoy me, too.  A bit odd they introduce a big bad new Salamanca at the end of the season, and it's like they deliberately want to make him the total opposite of Hector, Tuco and the cousins.  Kind of hokey to me.

 

And I'm holding my breath every moment Lalo is onscreen because for me he's exactly like all of the other Salamanca's -- a high powered explosive device with an overactive, twitchy compulsion to explode violently at all times.  I literally have anxiety about the cousins coming back to town and/or Tuco getting released from prison every time we switch into the drug cartel side of the storyline.

Giancarlo Esposito's supreme ability to flip the switch with Gus' expressions in milliseconds don't play so well when it comes to my nerves either.  

[Tikichick]

On 10/2/2018 at 8:50 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think Chuck typically said things about Jimmy to his face.  Quite the opposite, for the most part he held his negative opinions about Jimmy in or told them to other people, not Jimmy.

He pretended to be happy and proud when Jimmy told him he passed the bar and pretended to be upset that "Howard" nixed him being an attorney at HHM.  He encouraged Jimmy in his solo law practice, though secretly disapproving, and telling him that Howard didn't want him using the McGill name in the name of his practice.    

When he came to dinner, he apologized to Rebecca in advance and called Jimmy "an acquired taste", but didn't say anything negative to his face.

Is wan't until Jimmy figured out that Chuck has shut him out of HHM and he confronted him, that Chuck let his feelings be known with the "chimp with a machine gun" speech.  

As their feud escalated, especially after Mesa Verde, Chuck became more open about his feelings, capped off by his final "You never mattered that much to me."  But, through most of their lives Chuck did not knock Jimmy, to his face.   

Chuck absolutely was as much a master of the face he presented to people as Gus is.  Until the blowup Jimmy had no idea that Chuck loathed him.  Up until that point Jimmy accepted any criticisms that Chuck doled out as justified, partially the product of a perpetually disappointed big brother/partially the product of a perfectionist overachiever personality wherein nothing but the highest of standards would do.  Jimmy knew he was a sinner.  Jimmy felt he had earned and deserved Chuck's disapproval and that it pained Chuck to give it, but that it was ultimately coming from Chuck's love for him.  Jimmy is completely blindsided still by the idea that wasn't at all true.   

[shapeshifter]

52 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I doubt she let Kevin in on the scam.  But, she probably told him something like, "Don't get your hopes up, but I think I might be able to expedite the approval on the changes you wanted for Lubbock."

I assumed this. Especially with this being the penultimate episode, there doesn't seem to be time for much blow back from the scam. But I also trust that VG could use it in an interesting way in the future.

[Captanne]

I sincerely believe that this episode showed us the grifter side of Jimmy -- I don't think he has a single emotion to reconcile about the death of Chuck.  I think he genuinely doesn't care.  Once you're in the rear view mirror, you're out of his thoughts.

I'm not judging him -- for me, that explains "Slippin' Jimmy".  He cruelly takes advantage of other people's weaknesses and as soon as he gets what he wants, they are non-entities to him.  

Now that I think about it, I'm not so sure the Board wasn't right in there assessment.  What I vehemently disagree with, though, is their not reinstating him.  There are all types of lawyers out there.  The ability to turn off your emotions in court room (and litigation is his thing), for some, is an asset not a liability.  Plus, if the justice system stands for anything -- it's what Jimmy himself said, "It's not perfect but it's the best we've got to punish the guilty and reward the innocent."  He's paid his dues.  He should have been reinstated.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I doubt she let Kevin in on the scam.  But, she probably told him something like, "Don't get your hopes up, but I think I might be able to expedite the approval on the changes you wanted for Lubbock."

Kim has the veneer of a prudent person, but she has frequently behaved imprudently.  She's no George H.W. Bush. :)

She shacks up with a con artist lawyer.

She committed fraud and ethical violations to help him in his disciplinary hearing.

She did the Huell letter writing scam, which could easily be uncovered.

She blew off her bread and butter client to deal with a pro bono client who didn't want to show up for court.

She pushed Howard to push for D&M to hire Jimmy.

She didn't tell Howard that Jimmy also blindsided her with the unauthorized tv ad.

She took on Gatwood when she was already sleep deprived from MV and could have killed herself or others.

I love Kim, but IMO she is not very prudent.

Kim may have gotten Kevin's approval beforehand regarding the added cost of construction without divulging her methods.   

I consider Kim "generally" prudent in that she is careful with regard to her own affairs, but has a blind spot when it comes to Jimmy.  When Jimmy showed her the TV ad, she knew that it was not appropriate for a high-end law firm like D&M.  But it didn't occur her to that he might be lying when he said he had Cliff's approval.  That blind spot has gotten bigger and bigger with the passing seasons.  In my opinion it eclipsed the way she saw herself when she made that phone call to handyman company. 

 

55 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

IMO it's moreso Jimmy's grief and guilt about Chuck he cannot face.  Part of that grief is extremely complicated because it is enmeshed with Jimmy's complete confusion that the brother he idolized and loved since childhood harbored such extreme animus about him for so long.  It's also the reason Jimmy was in fact incapable of referencing Chuck in relation to his decision to go into law or as having anything at all to do with what the law means to him.  All of it circles back to Chuck for Jimmy, and at this point Chuck = Jimmy's electricity phobia/allergy/aversion.  Saul is Jimmy's foil blanket.  Chuck doesn't exist in the same universe as Saul. 

I would say that Chuck was Jimmy's foil blanket for a while.  Jimmy has left a trail of people he's damaged throughout the show, and I can imagine there was a significant number of such people back in Cicero.  After the Chicago Sunroof incident, Chuck was Jimmy's one avenue towards redemption, and that turned out to be a dead end. 

I might even take that a step further Chuck was still Jimmy's blanket even after Chuck called him a chimp with a machine gun.  There's a scene early in season 3 when Jimmy tells Kim that there was a ten-minute span when he forgot that Chuck hated him.  Well, a lot of people hated him--justifiably so, imo.  Focusing on Chuck as the only person who hated him allowed him to avoid that fact.  But Chuck is gone, and Jimmy is going to need a new blanket.   

Edited October 4, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Kim may have gotten Kevin's approval beforehand regarding the added cost of construction without divulging her methods.   

I consider Kim "generally" prudent in that she is careful with regard to her own affairs, but has a blind spot when it comes to Jimmy.  When Jimmy showed her the TV ad, she knew that it was not appropriate for a high-end law firm like D&M.  But it didn't occur to that he might be lying when he said he had Cliff's approval.  That blind spot has gotten bigger and bigger with the passing seasons.  

I agree that Kim probably got approval on the costs and told Kevin she was working on getting the revised plans approved quickly.  

But, when Howard confronted her about the ad, and told her Jimmy did it without authorization, she let Howard believe that Jimmy had told her he went rogue, when he had lied to her about it, and even pretended that Cliff was thrilled.  Now, you could chalk that up to loyalty to Jimmy, but it wasn't prudent for her career.  

I'm not so sure it is only a blind spot with regard to Jimmy.  She took on the Gatwood work and almost killed herself.  Jimmy was trying to get her to slow down on that.  She rudely blew off Paige on an urgent matter , to try to talk her idiot PD client out of skipping court.   She came up with the idea for the latest blueprint scam.  Scamming the guy who tried to pick her up in the bar, was also her idea.  

Jimmy might have awakened, or reawakened the con artist in her, but it seems like imprudent behavior is part of her character.  She didn't want to talk to S&C about her past in her hometown, which suggests some embarrassing thing might have happened there.

I am starting to get a Jesse and Jane vibe off of Jimmy and Kim.  Jane had been an addict for years, cleaned herself up, but got slowly lured back into it by being around Jesse.  Kim might have be a con artist or at least a very irresponsible person in her earlier life, who cleaned up her act, but got lured back into it by being with Jimmy.  

Edited October 4, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[Tikichick]

7 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I would say that Chuck was Jimmy's foil blanket for a while.  Jimmy has left a trail of people he's damaged throughout the show, and I can imagine there was a significant number of such people back in Cicero.  After the Chicago Sunroof incident, Chuck was Jimmy's one avenue towards redemption, and that turned out to be a dead end. 

I might even take that a step further Chuck was still Jimmy's blanket even after Chuck called him a chimp with a machine gun.  There's a scene early in season 3 when Jimmy tells Kim that there was a ten-minute span when he forgot that Chuck hated him.  Well, a lot of people hated him--justifiably so, imo.  Focusing on Chuck as the only person who hated him allowed him to avoid that fact.  But Chuck is gone, and Jimmy is going to need a new blanket.   

I don't see Chuck serving as Jimmy's foil blanket at all -- particularly since he had a penchant for pushing Jimmy's nose right back into the messes he made on a regular basis like you would with a puppy who makes a mess on the carpet.  Jimmy didn't particularly feel any need for a foil blanket before because he could handle acknowledging the things he'd done.  Chuck was a touchstone for Jimmy.  He relied on Chuck to always point him to where true north was.  It was finding out he had no idea where Chuck was truly pointing him, no longer having that touchstone to go back to that has completely disoriented Jimmy.  Jimmy isn't ready to deal with any of it yet, cannot accept the loss.  That's why he's showing flickers of eagerness at the idea of donning the shiny protection Saul affords him.   Chuck never existed in Saul's world, so no dealing with those pesky thoughts or feelings -- s'all good man.

[meira.hand]

On 10/2/2018 at 5:39 AM, peeayebee said:

Do you all think that Werner plans to return to the job? I don't. Maybe he doesn't realize how brutal his employers are, so he will return, but I think he has gone back to Germany for good. I don't think he's going to be killed. Maybe this is wishful thinking.

What was going on with him when he was checking on the explosive wiring? Was he hearing things? I thought there was some kind of animal down there, but maybe this was in his head. I mean, I'm sure there wasn't an animal down there, but I didn't understand what kind of issue he was having.

 

On 10/2/2018 at 5:43 AM, SailorGirl said:

I was thinking there was going to be a short or something and Werner was going to get electrocuted or the charge was going to inadvertently blow with him down there/on his way down there. Then when he took his helmet off and leaned against the rock dejectedly I thought he was going to do something to trigger the charge and commit suicide right there. But nope... he's committing suicide by escaping, knowing Mike will kill him when (not if) he catches up to him. . .  

I think Werner will return because otherwise he will not be paid and the whole thing was for nothing. Also he is a man of his word, proud of his professionalism and would not leave the project unfinished. He even left technical instructions (drawings) on his table. I also do not think he expects to be killed or even treated with physical violence, only maybe fined in part of his salary. He knows the project is very secret and maybe illegal but probably not aware of the violent criminals involved. Nothing in his interactions with Mike or Gus hinted at this and they both project tough but calm personalities. I think we tend to project our own knowledge of the people involved on the situation with the group of German engineers and workers. I think what happened in the cellar when he was repairing the wires was a simple panic attack brought on by the accumulating stress and Mike sensed it but did not judge correctly how bad it was. He will probably blame himself for reading this wrong but killing Werner has no added value at this point. The only question is how will Gus react, logically or emotionally.

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

No I suspect someone works a miracle at the appeals process whether it's Kim, Jimmy/Saul or maybe even Howard standing up for him. I do not think he was behind the board's decision. There's really no reason for Howard to try and sabotage Jimmy.  He would have nothing to gain.

I like the idea of Howard standing up for him.

22 minutes ago, Captanne said:

I sincerely believe that this episode showed us the grifter side of Jimmy -- I don't think he has a single emotion to reconcile about the death of Chuck.  I think he genuinely doesn't care.  Once you're in the rear view mirror, you're out of his thoughts.

I'm not judging him -- for me, that explains "Slippin' Jimmy".  He cruelly takes advantage of other people's weaknesses and as soon as he gets what he wants, they are non-entities to him.  

Now that I think about it, I'm not so sure the Board wasn't right in there assessment.  What I vehemently disagree with, though, is their not reinstating him.  There are all types of lawyers out there.  The ability to turn off your emotions in court room (and litigation is his thing), for some, is an asset not a liability.  Plus, if the justice system stands for anything -- it's what Jimmy himself said, "It's not perfect but it's the best we've got to punish the guilty and reward the innocent."  He's paid his dues.  He should have been reinstated.

I think you may be right that Jimmy doesn't have any need to reconcile Chuck's death. But I disagree that it is reflective of his nature as a grifter. I don't think it is particularly unusual that once someone has kicked you to the curb enough times - that the final blow knocks out any emotion you feel for that person. And when they die, then you're relieved of the burden of people expecting you to reconcile.

2 minutes ago, meira.hand said:

 

I think Werner will return because otherwise he will not be paid and the whole thing was for nothing. Also he is a man of his word, proud of his professionalism and would not leave the project unfinished. He even left technical instructions (drawings) on his table. I also do not think he expects to be killed or even treated with physical violence, only maybe fined in part of his salary. He knows the project is very secret and maybe illegal but probably not aware of the violent criminals involved. Nothing in his interactions with Mike or Gus hinted at this and they both project tough but calm personalities. I think we tend to project our own knowledge of the people involved on the situation with the group of German engineers and workers. I think what happened in the cellar when he was repairing the wires was a simple panic attack brought on by the accumulating stress and Mike sensed it but did not judge correctly how bad it was. He will probably blame himself for reading this wrong but killing Werner has no added value at this point. The only question is how will Gus react, logically or emotionally.

I think Werner thinks he will return. I'm not all that confident he will.

[Captanne]

I think it's the "grifter" side because we also have to reconcile his almost obsessive protection of Chuck during Chuck's lifetime.  While Chuck was in his orbit, Jimmy protected and cared for him.  But, once he's dead, Chuck is an afterthought.  (I can't think of how he described it to Kim in this episode but he was sincere -- Chuck is out of sight, out of mind.)  

For me, that is the grifter mindset.  Use people while they are in your orbit but, once you've finished your interaction with them (taken advantage of them), they are out of sight, out of mind.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Captanne

[Tikichick]

On 10/2/2018 at 1:37 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

Jimmy isn't stupid.  I think he would suspect that following a guy with a backpack that Mike expected to be delivered to LPH might have something to do with drugs.

But, I think Fring might seek out HHM independent of Jimmy.  Mike has some familiarity with the HHM situation through his PI/door repair work for Jimmy and he gave Jimmy his condolences on the death of Chuck.  Gus and Mike could see cash starved, but well regarded HHM as a just the type of firm that would serve Fring well, and that Fring could control.   

I could see Mike meeting with Jimmy to find out what Jimmy knows about Howard and HHM and that meeting help convince Mike that HHM is the right firm for Fring and LPH. 

That is a seriously mindboggling concept to chew on.

[ShadowFacts]

11 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I am starting to get a Jesse and Jane vibe off of Jimmy and Kim.  Jane had been an addict for years, cleaned herself up, but got slowly lured back into it by being around Jesse.  Kim might have be a con artist or at least a very irresponsible person in her earlier life, who cleaned up her act, but got lured back into it by being with Jimmy.  

I think she may have been drawn to the law as a way to corral dark impulses and it worked for a long while.  She was around Jimmy for years before she started acting out, and he kept himself out of trouble for years as well.  Over time they both slipped back to what they had been resisting.  Almost like a drug relapse.  They enjoy stimulating the reward circuit.  

[Tikichick]

On 10/2/2018 at 2:08 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

Did anyone else suspect Werner might have been talking in code to his wife?

Wilkommen to Baden Baden., Herr Ehrmentraut.

[Bryce Lynch]

I looked into the procedure for being reinstated to the New Mexico Bar after a suspension.  It seems like for suspension of less than 6 months it is relatively easy.  But for suspensions of more than 6 months the burden is on the suspended attorney to prove by a strong preponderance of the evidence that he is morally fit and has the skills to be a lawyer and that his being a lawyer will not be detrimental to the profession.  

Also, if you are denied, you must wait at least a year to reapply.  

So, Jimmy shouldn't have expected his reinstatement to be rubber stamped.

I think Jimmy destroying the cassette tape (a point Chuck was adamant about getting into Jimmy's confession) might have been the difference between a 6 month and 12 month suspension.  The rest of the stuff he confessed to was a crime of passion, not one of dishonesty, done in anger, with some real provocation. Destroying evidence seems like the ethical issue that would bring his fitness to be an attorney into question.  

[Tikichick]

On 10/2/2018 at 7:42 PM, Bannon said:

I did chuckle when Lalo came back to Nacho, and said, huge grin on his face, "Same ol' Hector! He just wants to kill everyone!", like he was describing someone with a golf obsession.

I could agree with you if the sight of a Salamanca, even the thought of a Salamanca, didn't make me fight the urge to cower behind my sofa. 

On 10/2/2018 at 8:01 PM, Tighthead said:

 

That would make the fire story the equivalent of “remember the day we played Cypress Point and you birdied the last three holes? Best day ever!”

That's precisely why I'm so terrified -- that's exactly what those stories equate to for the Salamancas, a trip down memory lane to reminisce about the good ole days.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree that Kim probably got approval on the costs and told Kevin she was working on getting the revised plans approved quickly.  

But, when Howard confronted her about the ad, and told her Jimmy did it without authorization, she let Howard believe that Jimmy had told her he went rogue, when he had lied to her about it, and even pretended that Cliff was thrilled.  Now, you could chalk that up to loyalty to Jimmy, but it wasn't prudent for her career.  

I'm not so sure it is only a blind spot with regard to Jimmy.  She took on the Gatwood work and almost killed herself.  Jimmy was trying to get her to slow down on that.  She rudely blew off Paige on an urgent matter , to try to talk her idiot PD client out of skipping court.   She came up with the idea for the latest blueprint scam.  Scamming the guy who tried to pick her up in the bar, was also her idea.  

Jimmy might have awakened, or reawakened the con artist in her, but it seems like imprudent behavior is part of her character.  She didn't want to talk to S&C about her past in her hometown, which suggests some embarrassing thing might have happened there.

I am starting to get a Jesse and Jane vibe off of Jimmy and Kim.  Jane had been an addict for years, cleaned herself up, but got slowly lured back into it by Jesse.  Kim might have be a con artist or at least a very irresponsible person in her earlier life, who cleaned up her act, but got lured back into it by being with Jimmy.  

Kim took on Gatwood immediately after Jimmy had done the slipping thing at the music store to come up with his share of the expenses.  She told him she could cover him but he said he would do whatever was necessary to pay his freight.  Scamming that guy (Todd, I think) was her idea, but doing scams in general came from Jimmy.  Snapping at Paige resulted from her misgivings about what she and Jimmy did to Chuck.  Of course, we don't have much information about Kim that isn't connected to Jimmy in one way or another.  But she worked her way through law school on her own, and she refused to help the Kellermans adopt a hopeless defense strategy.  

While I like the parallel between Kim and Jane, I personally am OK not knowing why Kim is drawn to Jimmy.  Sometimes evil just cannot be explained.  Speaking of Baden Baden, there's a scene from War and Remembrance in which Professor Jastrow gives a lesson about Job and the nature of senseless evil from the confines of Theresienstadt.  

Edited October 4, 2018 by PeterPirate

[Tikichick]

22 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

The scene where Jimmy went to El Pollos Hermanos to surveil the place was the closest those two ever met.  Gus knew who Jimmy was, but Jimmy had no clue about Gus.  In fact I'm not sure if Jimmy/Saul ever learned about the connection between Mike and Gus, or Walt and Gus.  Considering how much business Mike and Walt did with both Gus and Saul, it is amazing those two never met.  

I suppose one can make the argument in Saul's favor that Gus never considered him sufficiently evil to make him a business partner.    

IDK if insufficiency on the evil scale earned Jimmy a non passing grade in Gus' book.  Gus went to the same optometrist as Chuck, he was only able to see Slippin' Jimmy from the moment he laid eyes on James McGill. 

[Eulipian 5k]

12 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Gus went to the same optometrist as Chuck, he was only able to see Slippin' Jimmy from the moment he laid eyes on James McGill. 

Now I'm not so sure if Gus ever knew Jimmy McGill. We do know that Saul Goodman was all over whatever TV Gus ever watched. Saul had blanketed TV and bus stop benches with his name and face. It wouldn't take Gus long to figure out that Saul Goodman would have a reputation of "the lawyer only guilty people hire". How red is that flag for Gus?

The benefactor  of the DEA having the same lawyer as just about every meth dealer and pickpocket in ABQ is not in LPH's business plan

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Now I'm not so sure if Gus ever knew Jimmy McGill. We do know that Saul Goodman was all over whatever TV Gus ever watched. Saul had blanketed TV and bus stop benches with his name and face. It wouldn't take Gus long to figure out that Saul Goodman would have a reputation of "the lawyer only guilty people hire". How red is that flag for Gus?

The benefactor  of the DEA having the same lawyer as just about every meth dealer and pickpocket in ABQ is not in LPH's business plan

We saw them meet in LPH when Mike sent Jimmy in for surveillance.  Jimmy used the digging around the garbage for his dropped watch as cover.  Gus was onto the entire charade.  Gus wasn't laboring under any misunderstandings about who Jimmy was.

[BradandJanet]

10 hours ago, SayMyName said:

As mentioned by other people, I also suspect Werner was talking in code with his wife. I would guess she would have to come to him as Mike must have searched his possessions and removed identification and passport. My first thought was that she would meet him at the strip club bar as that would be the only place that he knew of...maybe from a napkin with the address on it.

How he gets to/finds the bar without any money is another matter.

The conversation felt that way, but why would Werner have devised a code in the first place? Has he needed it for previous jobs? How would he and Mrs. Werner or whoever detail a specific rescue plan in place when nobody, presumably, knows where he is? 

Of course, it's possible there is no rescue, and Werner is just saying that his profession finally has caught up with him and there are several million euro stashed away in a hollow book in the study. 

[Bryce Lynch]

16 minutes ago, BradandJanet said:

The conversation felt that way, but why would Werner have devised a code in the first place? Has he needed it for previous jobs? How would he and Mrs. Werner or whoever detail a specific rescue plan in place when nobody, presumably, knows where he is? 

Of course, it's possible there is no rescue, and Werner is just saying that his profession finally has caught up with him and there are several million euro stashed away in a hollow book in the study. 

He might well have expected that he might need to escape from an illicit job like this one.  Maybe they had codes for different airports around the country that she would somehow send travel documents, plane tickets and cash to.   Maybe he embedded the abbreviation of the airport into something he said to her.  For example, maybe the next 3 nouns he used after she said, "book club" would start with A, B and Q.  Of course, he might be smarter to head to a different airport, because Mike would go there first.  

[PeterPirate]

7 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Now I'm not so sure if Gus ever knew Jimmy McGill. We do know that Saul Goodman was all over whatever TV Gus ever watched. Saul had blanketed TV and bus stop benches with his name and face. It wouldn't take Gus long to figure out that Saul Goodman would have a reputation of "the lawyer only guilty people hire". How red is that flag for Gus?

The benefactor  of the DEA having the same lawyer as just about every meth dealer and pickpocket in ABQ is not in LPH's business plan

I wonder if we'll get to see a scene wherein Gus explicitly instructs Mike to keep their business secret from Jimmy/Saul.  Mike, of course, would know that already.  But sometimes a scene is good for fanservice.  

For that matter, I wonder if Saul ends up representing some of Gus' street dealers, albeit without knowing who their crime boss was.  Gus may even send some of that business Saul's way.  

 

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I like the idea of Howard standing up for him.  

I'm warming up to this idea.   

[BradandJanet]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

He might well have expected that he might need to escape from an illicit job like this one.  Maybe they had codes for different airports around the country that she would somehow send travel documents, plane tickets and cash to.   Maybe he embedded the abbreviation of the airport into something he said to her.  For example, maybe the next 3 nouns he used after she said, "book club" would start with A, B and Q.  Of course, he might be smarter to head to a different airport, because Mike would go there first.  

This kind of escape needs the vacuum repair guy to make it work. 

[Eulipian 5k]

13 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

For example, maybe the next 3 nouns he used after she said, "book club" would start with A, B and Q.  Of course, he might be smarter to head to a different airport, because Mike would go there first.  

Sounds like the kind of plot Mike would figure out. At the Denver airport Werner sees a laser dot on his wife and spots Mike in the crowd carrying 2 black hoods!

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Sounds like the kind of plot Mike would figure out. At the Denver airport Werner sees a laser dot on his wife and spots Mike in the crowd carrying 2 black hoods!

If Werner had some cash hidden, he could catch a bus to any airport in the country.   

[Eulipian 5k]

18 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If Werner had some cash hidden, he could catch a bus to any airport in the country.   

In the old days he could have left a go bag in an airport locker but those days are long gone. And Mike was watching from the minute they arrived, so even if he tried to bury it Fargo-style next to the road where they were picked up in the van, that would be dug up by now.

Something tells me we're a loong way from Mike calling "Miller time!" on this job.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Eulipian 5k said:

In the old days he could have left a go bag in an airport locker but those days are long gone. And Mike was watching from the minute they arrived, so even if he tried to bury it Fargo-style next to the road where they were picked up in the van, that would be dug up by now.

Something tells me we're a loong way from Mike calling "Miller time!" on this job.

I'm thinking maybe he hid cash in the lining of his clothes or some other personal item. 

[Tikichick]

Once the immediate physical search doesn't lead them to Werner, Mike will turn his attention to Werner's wife as the logical endpoint for the search.  

[Tighthead]

Maybe Kai steps in and saves the day. I’ve said this before, they telegraphed him way too much as the live wire. 

They can’t kill them all, and low morale has already been identified as a serious issue. It’s not an easy situation from an HR perspective. 

I must say, I don’t really care if Werner lives or dies.  I just want the damn lab built. I’m sure in the end we will glean a few nuggets from this plot line, but I think it has been more wet tinder than slow burn. I say that as someone who has never had an issue with the pace of the show in the past. 

32 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Once the immediate physical search doesn't lead them to Werner, Mike will turn his attention to Werner's wife as the logical endpoint for the search.  

 

Tell Mike she is likely at her book club. 

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, BradandJanet said:

The conversation felt that way, but why would Werner have devised a code in the first place? Has he needed it for previous jobs? How would he and Mrs. Werner or whoever detail a specific rescue plan in place when nobody, presumably, knows where he is? 

Of course, it's possible there is no rescue, and Werner is just saying that his profession finally has caught up with him and there are several million euro stashed away in a hollow book in the study. 

 

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

He might well have expected that he might need to escape from an illicit job like this one.  Maybe they had codes for different airports around the country that she would somehow send travel documents, plane tickets and cash to.   Maybe he embedded the abbreviation of the airport into something he said to her.  For example, maybe the next 3 nouns he used after she said, "book club" would start with A, B and Q.  Of course, he might be smarter to head to a different airport, because Mike would go there first.  

I'm thinking it might be worthwhile to pay attention to those problem spots where the puppy had accidents and any suggestions Werner offered about cleanup.     

[Bryce Lynch]

22 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

 

I'm thinking it might be worthwhile to pay attention to those problem spots where the puppy had accidents and any suggestions Werner offered about cleanup.     

 

That makes a lot of sense!  The more I think about it, the more I think Werner wouldn't escape without a well thought out plan.  

Edited October 4, 2018 by Bryce Lynch

[Tikichick]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

 

That makes a lot of sense!  The more I think about it, the more I think Werner wouldn't escape without a well thought out plan.  

Werner didn't come into this whole operation as blind as the black hoodie initially made us think either.  It's not like he came for your average job interview, unquestioningly had that hood popped over his head, offered up his thoughts on how the job could be accomplished, accepted the job offer and pulled together a team of guys to come and work the project without having any ideas in his head that the job was unorthodox and carried risks beyond normal workplace mishaps.  He's too smart not to have attempted to put some mitigation plans of his own in place.

Discretion, orderliness, attention to detail and being a knowledgeable guy with a creative mind capable of solving problems did help him ace the job interview.    

[Bannon]

Oh, Werner's smart enough for anything. I just have doubts about the efficacy of enlisting your wife in Germany for a plan to escape confinement in Albuquerque, via a coded telephone conversation, using a phone that you have access to sporadically.

I think it much more doable that he located the lab in the time between the initial interview, and the start of the job, and had  the tools needed for an Albuquerque escape put in place in some Albuquerque storage locker (maybe the one Skyler rents in a few years!).

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Tighthead said:

I must say, I don’t really care if Werner lives or dies.  I just want the damn lab built. I’m sure in the end we will glean a few nuggets from this plot line, but I think it has been more wet tinder than slow burn.

(shrug) It's not my favorite storyline, but I think it's there more for its thematic resonance than its contribution to the plot. It's the physical representation of what's been going on psychologically with the characters, particularly Jimmy, this season -- how they have to hide who they are and what they're really up to, but it's driving them crazy and eventually they have to break out. I expect Werner's fate in the final episode to resonate with however Jimmy ends up dealing with -- or not dealing with -- his repressed grief over Chuck's death.

[benteen]

Another thing working against Werner getting out of the country is that this is only about 2 years after 9/11.  He's going to have to show some kind of identification to be able to get a flight out of Germany and I imagine there are other factors in play too.

[peeayebee]

BRYCE LYNCH, that gif is hilarious!

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, benteen said:

Another thing working against Werner getting out of the country is that this is only about 2 years after 9/11.  He's going to have to show some kind of identification to be able to get a flight out of Germany and I imagine there are other factors in play too.

His wife might have sent some documents or he could go to a German consulate to get new ones.  Worst case scenario, being in the custody of Homeland Security would be a lot better than being in a hole in the desert.   I wonder what type of visas the Germans have.  Ten months seems like a long time for a travel visa.  Could they have h1b visas through Madrigal?   

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Oh, Werner's smart enough for anything. I just have doubts about the efficacy of enlisting your wife in Germany for a plan to escape confinement in Albuquerque, via a coded telephone conversation, using a phone that you have access to sporadically.

I think it much more doable that he located the lab in the time between the initial interview, and the start of the job, and had  the tools needed for an Albuquerque escape put in place in some Albuquerque storage locker (maybe the one Skyler rents in a few years!).

What about the potential of Werner alerting his wife she needs to gather up the hidden assets make herself scarce in the event they seek her out as a means of getting Werner to reveal himself?    

What about the potential of alerting his wife to wire funds that Werner can access to enable him to hide somewhere?

What if in fact the "wife" is merely a cover for a partner that he was in fact activating to wire funds to enable him to hide?  

The title may tell us a lot about the outcome, but it doesn't necessarily have to happen in the very next episode.