S04.E13: Blackjack

[raven]

Quote

Strand and Dorie are marooned; Luciana aids a man in need; the group's efforts to help a stranger put everyone in danger.

Airdate 2018.09.09

[Lamima]

The gator stuff was the most stupid this show has gone. I was embarrassed for the actors having to act in those scenes with such piss poor writing.

Oh, and what was the motherahip commercial that said 'Rick Grimes last episode'?

[DrNowsWeightScale]

Aw, I kind of liked the alligator eating zombies shtick. Sort of reminds me of that old zombie movie where a shark ate a zombie that was walking underwater at a beach.

At least John Dorie is back in this episode, after having been missing the last three episodes in a row. 

He's missing his hat now, though, and was looking very forlorn and sad by the end, sitting there alone eating his candy.

(I hate black licorice, though. Red is okay.)

Wonder why Crazy Lady is so opposed to people helping other people, why she considers that "weak," and worthy of killing people over??

[raven]

4 minutes ago, Lamima said:

Oh, and what was the motherahip commercial that said 'Rick Grimes last episode'?

There are spoilers for the mothership in its own forum.  We ask that the posters in this one not talk about specifics regarding TWD here, though generalities are OK.

This is not a knock on your question since the promo did appear during this episode, just a reminder to the posters here; not everyone watches both shows in the same time frame so we try to keep the forum as spoiler free as we can.

[SimoneS]

I am enjoying te reboot. Too bad they waited until the ratings collapsed before fixing the show. The ratings are even lower now. 

This is a good group of people around Morgan and they will be even stronger when Strand, John, and Daniel join them. However, Morgan needs to get off his "everyone can be saved" kick. Or maybe Tony Pinkins' character is this show's version of the redeemed villain.

I have always liked Stephen Henderson, the actor who played Polar Bear. Too bad we didn't have him longer. The actress who plays Luciana shone in those scenes with him.

Edited September 10, 2018 by SimoneS

[timesywimesy]

I’d pay good money to watch a show featuring the wacky ZA hijinks of John Dorie and Jerry from The Kingdom on The Mothership. 

John with his licorice, Jerry with his cobbler!

They are just about the only 100% likable characters this franchise has left. 

[oompa]

If only he had some Flex Seal and a screen door, he'd have been set!

Yes, the gator was ridiculous, but the old dude and the beer was sweet.

[Donder]

Still not as scary as watching Morgan on the john. I had bad nightmares about that one.

[Iguessnot]

Why didn't Strand just open the door instead of trying to retrieve the bottle through the window? Nobody believes that walker was capable of dragging Strand through the window.

How long have they been sitting in the road waiting? Thank God Ms. Crusty Face has shown up so we can have some movement.

Luciana walks from Polar Bear's crashed car to the box that Morgan wrote the channel number on, and back to Polar Bear. Are they still in some unknown place between Mississippi and Texas?

I can't believe they are digging deeper into the Morgan angst. It has ceased to make any sense and I hate revisiting it.  

[JackONeill]

My one, and continuing reservation/complaint: People in the group (not those in the new-new group, though I think this still applies, but the “old-group” of Alisha, Luicianda, Strand, Al, etc) haven’t had the time to get to know Morgan well enough to recognize his voice over a radio and, more importantly, be tickled pink when they do. They act as though he’s going to save them all, like he’s some ... I dunno, savior. Which the. Leads to the question: Why does the mud-lady have it in for him? It’s like she knows him, as in KNOWS him. 

Sure I can come up with explanations, the largest being that this is TWD universe, so whatever logic there might have once been, is no longer. But the cynical side of me sees this as a blatant attempt to “make” Morgan the leader of this group. Remember in the old days, with the original show, people had to earn being a leader, even, to a certain extent Rick. I’m thinking of when he first caught up to Lori and the gang. Sure he was a policeman and Shane knew him, but the crowd was pretty set in its way. He had to show what he could do to get them to sign up to his “posse.”

But Morgan appears and suddenly he’s voted Head Cheese. (Get it?) Other than being able to twirl a stick, the only thinghe’s been able to demonstrate is that he can’t make up his mind, and that he still has this kumbaya-thing going on.

 When he first gets there, he’s all “I’m on my own and heading that way,” only to then (and I still don’t understand this) wanting to go back to Virginia, but he needs to collect all his NEW friends first. It’s almost as if he heard there might be an opening in the ranks of leadership back in Virginia.  [Has Morgan been reading spoilers again?!?]

[UNOSEZ]

I for one totally understand why Morgan has the urge to head back to VA... He witnessed the aftermath of a failed community and recognized that the things happening in va were special.. And that probably no matter where he went ppl would be trying to rebuild and come together... Also he probably misses his friends... The guy has/had a flaw and that's running and shutting down after he loses himself( because he's lost ppl)... I think that's why after he woke up in Mississippi he kinda waffled... Figured he was still all cuckoo and that the Texas crew(older)  wouldn't/ didbt need him so he headed off... But after some introspection (via stuck on a car)  rigged he was wrong and probably had also been bullshitting himself.... 

 

As to why ppl are following him... The newest Texas ppl see VA as a place to be safe and he knows the way... The older Texas ppl were all super broken after Madison/Nick died and they had their lil civil war... Luciana just got out of her funk.. June who's also been kinda cut n run now has something she's not willing to run away from.. Al wants the story and is probably a little tired of just wanting the story without participating... Charlie is just a kid but she's desperate to belong somewhere... Alicia wants to emulate her mom and help ppl and I feel like Morgan's first VA pitch almost sold her.. And after ditching him and her exp with Charlie on the road.. She's ready to take on that challenge... John is probably gonna go wherever June decides to plus he seems to really attach emotionally to folks but foes have a strong moral core. And strand.. Well I dunno hes a cynic and a brutal realist so a cross country helpathon probably isn't in his wheelhouse.. But I think Alicia is the only Family he has left and he's gonna keep seeing pieces of Madison in her.  So with no other real plan besides survive which didn't work after the fall of the stadium..  Morgan and his mission would seem like the thing to do... Help folks and get to VA to meet the King and all the other communities 

[nodorothyparker]

Laura/Naomi/June is at least aware that Morgan and John became fast friends.  That's probably enough reason for her to trust Morgan and Al, who seems to have reached the realization that being with people is better than being alone, was just along for the ride anyway.  Morgan's new backup group (which I love because while they may have been haplessly opportunistic, they're not evil) seem primed to follow anyone who was going to lead them to something.  In promising community in Virginia, he's promising them something instead of just being aimlessly scattered.  Now while we know that as long as both shows continue to exist that they likely won't be making it to Virginia, if they all pull together they can still have something of a community.

I would imagine too that Morgan's rhetoric of wanting to help people and be better people is highly appealing when pretty everything else they know has turned to shit.  I mean, I'm struck by how much more palatable I'm finding all this than the endless everything is terrible, people are terrible so why try nihilism the mother show has been beating us over the head with since what feels like forever.  And I'm not the one stuck out on the road with nothing.  While filthy-faced crazy lady may be too ridiculous for words and I want to smack Morgan as much as anyone for thinking he can save her if he just gives her a good talking to, I like that the show is at least trying to find some grace and some reason for these people to keep going.   For example, I've never had much strong feeling about Luciana either way and I initially thought her storyline was going to be one of those time-wasting non sequiturs this franchise loves so much, but by the end it was quietly moving that she put so much effort into helping a complete stranger have a better death and then refound the group as a result.  

I could probably watch John Dorie in his boundless hopefulness and Strand in his slick cynicism snipe at each other all day.  

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, JackONeill said:

My one, and continuing reservation/complaint: People in the group (not those in the new-new group, though I think this still applies, but the “old-group” of Alisha, Luicianda, Strand, Al, etc) haven’t had the time to get to know Morgan well enough to recognize his voice over a radio and, more importantly, be tickled pink when they do. They act as though he’s going to save them all, like he’s some ... I dunno, savior. Which the. Leads to the question: Why does the mud-lady have it in for him? It’s like she knows him, as in KNOWS him. 

Sure I can come up with explanations, the largest being that this is TWD universe, so whatever logic there might have once been, is no longer. But the cynical side of me sees this as a blatant attempt to “make” Morgan the leader of this group. Remember in the old days, with the original show, people had to earn being a leader, even, to a certain extent Rick. I’m thinking of when he first caught up to Lori and the gang. Sure he was a policeman and Shane knew him, but the crowd was pretty set in its way. He had to show what he could do to get them to sign up to his “posse.”

But Morgan appears and suddenly he’s voted Head Cheese. (Get it?) Other than being able to twirl a stick, the only thinghe’s been able to demonstrate is that he can’t make up his mind, and that he still has this kumbaya-thing going on.

 When he first gets there, he’s all “I’m on my own and heading that way,” only to then (and I still don’t understand this) wanting to go back to Virginia, but he needs to collect all his NEW friends first. It’s almost as if he heard there might be an opening in the ranks of leadership back in Virginia.  [Has Morgan been reading spoilers again?!?]

I don't think that it takes much to recognize someone's voice over the radio and given what they are scattered and emotionally drained, it is understandable that they are happy to hear a familiar voice. However, I agree that the show is taking a shortcut to make Morgan the leader. Yet I see why the characters are attracted to Morgan as they were to Rick on TWD. There is something steady and trustworthy, and even hopeful about Morgan. Sure he waffles and is uncertain at times, but who isn't in that world (Rick has had his share of breakdowns). This that doesn't mean that Morgan isn't right that they should help people and go to Alexandria to be safe. They are taking a leap of fate that he is telling the truth about Alexandria, but given their lives it is worth taking. And despite their flaws, these new characters seem like fundamentally good people just trying to survive. They aren't attempting to burn down what is left of the world.

As for why Morgan wants to go back to VA, it never made sense that he would leave his friends and reasonably good life in the first place. Of course, now he realizes that he made a terrible mistake, misses everyone, and wants to head back home. Morgan has finally come to his senses. Morgan is the one who saved and helped Rick when it was risk with nothing to gain so wanting to help these new people and take them with him back to Alexandria is in character.

Edited September 10, 2018 by SimoneS

[JackONeill]

8 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

As for why Morgan wants to go back to VA, it never made sense that he would live his friends and reasonably good life to leave in the first place. Of course, now he realizes that he made a terrible mistake, misses everyone, and wants to head back home. Morgan has finally come to his senses. Morgan is the one who saved and helped Rick when it was risk with nothing to gain so wanting to help these new people and take them with him back to Alexandria is in character.

 

I don't totally disagree, but I never felt Morgan was a team player. And I say that not as a way to say that he was only out for himself, like the Claimers, or that he didn't care, because that's not it. But he's always had this "outsider" vibe (at least to me). He stayed locked in his house with his son. (understandable. Trust me, NO ONE would have seen me if I'd been in his shoes). Then he went nuts and stayed by himself after his son died (again, understandable). But he rebuffed Rick big-time in that same episode, which, though in itially understandable, is where the logic starts to break down. (And of course the logic has to break down because the actor wouldn't agreee, at the time, to sign on for more than a few episodes. So what could the writers do? Again, understandble, but it makes the rest of the arc for the charcter a little wobbly (IMO).

Then there was the long trek to find Rick. SOmewhere in there there was the cheese making episode (which I still have bad dreams about.) Then he gets to Alexandria, and he goes sideways with Carol almost from the get-go. She doesn't want to kill. He doesn't want to kill ... but they each want to kill the other, and very nearly do. (Slightly exaggerated!)Then he builds a jail cell. THen he ups and leaves. Then he visits Carol. Then he ups and leaves, again. Then Rick visits him. Then he ups and leaves.

And why does he go to Texas? The US is a mighty big place. I mean, c'mon, that was only so he could hook-up with the Madison left-overs (from a TPTB stand-point). And now ... and now ... after all that ... he wants to GO BACK???!!!??

Look, I like Morgan. I think he has a role on this show. I don't think he's a leader. I think a good leader requires being able to make snap decisions, even if they turn out to be wrong. I think Morgan's "voice" is a good one to have to even things out. I think Morgan is someone you want at the command table as you're planning yhe next bit of strategy. But once you "enagage" you need someone who could think on their feet.

Again, none of this matters. It's a TV show. The thing that bugs me is how things have been made to fit. In my opinion, they've been forced to fit. But, perhaps, it's the best anyone could do under the circumstances.

[Josette]

2 hours ago, JackONeill said:

Why does the mud-lady have it in for him? It’s like she knows him, as in KNOWS him. 

She watched his tape, so she does know some of his story.  She's formed an opinion, possibly accurate, about him from that and their brief interaction.

[JackONeill]

12 minutes ago, Josette said:

She watched his tape, so she does know some of his story.  She's formed an opinion, possibly accurate, about him from that and their brief interaction.

Yeah, I heard that too. But WHY Morgan?

I'm more like Strand. In a ZA, I'm going to be concerned about a safe place to stay, food and alcohol. But watching home movies??? Of peopple I don't know??? Sure, I might watch Smokey and the Bandit, but ...

But then that raises the lack of logic in this show. They can sometimes find a car that works, or some gas, or some food, or some batteries, or some bullets ... but usually only when they don't need them. When they need them, good luck with any of that. And not to mention, we should be past the point of finding good gas and batteries, and cars that work. But ... 

[nodorothyparker]

I've long accepted that it's easier to just go with the premise that gas doesn't go bad or that these people can easily find all the batteries for the walkies in the world to waste time chatting up strangers or telling long stories rather than make myself crazy.  Because I will nitpick to the point of making myself crazy if I do.

[Josette]

27 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

Yeah, I heard that too. But WHY Morgan?

I suppose because she knows he's continuing the work with the boxes and she wants him to stop.

[Josette]

5 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

How?  I thought the video camera batteries were dead and needed to be recharged.  I wouldn't expect that wackjob to know how to recharge them or drive the armored vehicle.

 I don't know.  But Al surmised that the woman must have watched Morgan's tape and that's why she knew stuff.  They never explained beyond that.

[DrNowsWeightScale]

13 hours ago, JackONeill said:

Why does the mud-lady have it in for him? It’s like she knows him, as in KNOWS him. 

I think one of them mentioned or alluded to the notion, during the episode, that Crazy Lady (aka Crusty Face Lady or Filthy Lady) found Al's tapes in the SWAT van she hi-jacked, and she's been watching those videos (including Al's interview with Morgan) on the camera in the truck. She was quoting almost verbatim from Morgan's interview, about how when he "loses people, he loses himself."

As to your other question about why they seem to be adopting Morgan so easily as a leader figure.

I think this was also kind of mentioned (maybe on Talking Dead afterwards) that Morgan has more experience. The people in the FTWD group (Alicia, Strand, etc) don't seem to have as much experience as he does with dealing with the new dynamics of living in a zombie apocalypse. 

I'd also guess that the original FTWD group (Alicia, Strand), are still reeling from the loss of their original leader (Madison) and are feeling lost. I think they are looking for someone to take her place, and they gravitate towards Morgan.

Edited September 11, 2018 by DrNowsWeightScale

[patty1h]

This season is still dragging for me -- not even Madison and Nick dying made it interesting. These last few episodes have been hard to invest in, with the wacky white/black truckers, the useless beer maker, Al whining about her truck, this witch like weirdo who's keeping walkers as pets, etc.  I never warmed to John Dorie, so he's not a factor in keeping my interest. The last one that I liked is Strand, but his alky nihilism is making me hate him.

One thing that I find mega unealistic:  Morgan demands that the truck duo drive him all over doing his bidding. They don't owe him any favors but he barks out orders and expects them to go along with his plans... and they give in.  I guess they gotta do something to keep MOVEMENT in this show. It's already so slow, they need to have these characters doing anything to keep viewers eyes open and driving about fills the time.

[Daltrey]

15 hours ago, DrNowsWeightScale said:

Crazy Lady (aka Crusty Face Lady or Filthy Lady)

 

I hereby motion that we officially adopt the moniker of "Witchiepoo", as christened by @icemiser69.

I've been enjoying the last few episodes, for the most part, other than Alicia and Charlie in the house, and this was no exception. The crocigator didn't bother me too much, as sightings were kept to a minimum; Victor going after the scotch bottle on the floor of the truck and the resulting walker tug into the truck and subsequent tumble down the embankment was far more ridiculous, IMO. It clearly came to a rest completely upside down in the water, not resting half on its left side at the waters edge. They must have had a first year student editor in that day for those shots.  Worst, though, had to be when the horn died when the battery ran out. The two walkers coming down the far bank to the waters edge stopped, turned and looked at each other as if to say "What?!  Oh well, guess there's nothing going on over there after all, may as well turn back." and then actually started to walk back up the bank! Then, when John shot at the water, they turned around and started heading to the water again!! I know they react to noise but since when did they have enough wherewithal turn and head back once a noise stops, regardless of what the noise was drawing them towards? Other than that, I thought the rest was fairly solid. As outlined by others upthread, I can understand Morgan's thought processes and why the others may be willing to look to him for some form of leadership.

[Jersey Guy 87]

18 hours ago, DrNowsWeightScale said:

I think this was also kind of mentioned (maybe on Talking Dead afterwards) that Morgan has more experience. The people in the FTWD group (Alicia, Strand, etc) don't seem to have as much experience as he does with dealing with the new dynamics of living in a zombie apocalypse. 

 

I don't buy that - they've been living in the ZA for just as long.  Maybe they have different experiences but they've dealt with zombies and they've dealt with asshole people.  They built up a safe area, they've moved around, etc. 

[Daltrey]

3 minutes ago, Jersey Guy 87 said:

I don't buy that - they've been living in the ZA for just as long.  Maybe they have different experiences but they've dealt with zombies and they've dealt with asshole people.  They built up a safe area, they've moved around, etc. 

They definitely SHOULD have as much experience....but they don't seem to ACT like it, much of the time. Whether it's being written that way intentionally or it's life affecting art in the sense that the show hasn't been on as long so the writers are still in that mode of thinking the characters haven't been in universe as long, they should or could have found someone from the original Fear group to take up the leadership mantle. I suspect It's a convenient way to have Morgan transition to the new show without it being a pointless move, other than to hopefully bolster ratings with a familiar, mostly beloved character from the flagship show.

[JackONeill]

I think both groups are now supposed to have the same amount of time under their belts. (Until the new season of TWD, when they make another time jump ahead.) I think the problem has been the writing and acting for FTWD. For the first season, was the lead Madison ... or Travis??? Seriously. WHich one? But that was the choice, because everyone else (except for Daniel who, even then, was on the outside of the group) was young. I think they toyed with letting Nick take leadership duties (he certainly appealed to many audience members). But he is and was always a druggy ... and Madison needed to protect him. And that became part of the story. (Just ask Alisha.) Strand came on late, but he and Madison worked well together. But then—what of Travis? But, in my opinion, the Madison character met the same fate as Serena Williams. It's tough for men, which is what Hollywood mostly is, to let women act tough. My God—don't they know their place?  So we can have Rick Grimes acting like a complete idiot just like John McEnroe often did and everyone goes, "Oh, how cool" (think of Rick ripping out Joe's neck, then think of McEnroe just going to town with a referee. People ate that stuff up!) but we can't have Madison acting ballsy and making tough (and sometimes stupid) decisions. Heaven forbid. So now the universe has been righted. We have a man in charge on FWTD. I can sleep better at night now.

[DrNowsWeightScale]

I mulled things over a little more and wanted to add some more thoughts about this episode.

Part of me does like the concept of an alligator taking down zombies (that's pretty cool), and I am thrilled to have John Dorie back on (this was his first episode after being absent three times in a row), but....

And I know someone above felt this was a good, exciting episode, not very dull, but I can't say the same.

I've said on previous threads that I am afraid of the show messing up, mis-using, or under-utilizing my new fave character (Dorie), as the original show did with Rick Grimes and Daryl Dixon.

Here we have Dorie in an episode, after having gone missing 3 eps in a row, and they basically just have him stuck on an "island" not doing a whole lot of anything.

I hope Dorie gets more to do in future eps, or more exciting stuff to do, other than bicker with Strand and try to build rafts.

I did enjoy the contrast of his optimistic, do-good nature with Strand's negativity and cynicism to a point, don't get me wrong - that was interesting and amusing to watch - but that was not quite enough to make it an exciting show for me.

I've seen a few documentaries about alligators over the years, but I'm no expert.

While I like the concept of an alligator taking out zombies, how realistic is it that a lone alligator can keep two grown men trapped, and that she insists on sitting on the same portion of "shore line" for days on end?

Also, can alligators really move as fast as she's depicted as moving on the show? She moves pretty fast.

I would find things a tad more realistic if there were more than one alligator keeping Strand and Dorie captive, if there were 3 or 4 of them, but then again, I'm not an alligator expert.

I don't know if they travel in herds / groups / prides, like, say, lions do.

If they do, I'd find it more believable if there were several keeping the two men hostage, not just the one.

I think even the show acknowledged this, because there was a point where Strand told Dorie something like, "I'm surprised she's not full yet, that she's still in the same spot."

[DrNowsWeightScale]

On 9/10/2018 at 7:35 AM, UNOSEZ said:

 And strand.. Well I dunno hes a cynic and a brutal realist so a cross country helpathon probably isn't in his wheelhouse.. But I think Alicia is the only Family he has left and he's gonna keep seeing pieces of Madison in her.  So with no other real plan besides survive which didn't work after the fall of the stadium..  Morgan and his mission would seem like the thing to do... Help folks and get to VA to meet the King and all the other communities 

I agree. I think Strand regards Alicia as being the last of his family. Even though he gets annoyed by John Dorie, I think he may sort of view Dorie as new family or as a friend, at least someone he can trust.

On 9/10/2018 at 8:06 AM, nodorothyparker said:

....I would imagine too that Morgan's rhetoric of wanting to help people and be better people is highly appealing when pretty everything else they know has turned to shit.  I mean, I'm struck by how much more palatable I'm finding all this than the endless everything is terrible, people are terrible so why try nihilism the mother show has been beating us over the head with since what feels like forever.  ...

... I could probably watch John Dorie in his boundless hopefulness and Strand in his slick cynicism snipe at each other all day.  

Oh yes, me too. I still watch the original TWD, but the non-stop gloom and doom, and nobody ever tells a joke or cracks a smile gets so very depressing and tiresome to watch. Also, it gets boring because it gets so repetitive! 

I too enjoy watching the conflict of Dorie's optimism against Strand's pessimism. 

I felt bad for Dorie in this ep.

Strand really wore down John's optimism to the point you could just tell from looking at him on the shore that he had a case of the sad's and he wanted to give up. Poor guy.

I come from a family of Strands - most of my family are very negative, a bunch of "Debbie Downers," and even when you try to fight that and stay optimistic, it's difficult to do when everyone around you is constantly "you're not going to make it, give up, the world is a terrible, horrible place" etc

Edited September 11, 2018 by DrNowsWeightScale

[DrNowsWeightScale]

On 9/10/2018 at 8:45 AM, JackONeill said:

I don't totally disagree, but I never felt Morgan was a team player. And I say that not as a way to say that he was only out for himself, like the Claimers, or that he didn't care, because that's not it. But he's always had this "outsider" vibe (at least to me). He stayed locked in his house with his son. (understandable.

Look, I like Morgan. I think he has a role on this show. I don't think he's a leader. ...

...Again, none of this matters. It's a TV show. The thing that bugs me is how things have been made to fit. In my opinion, they've been forced to fit. But, perhaps, it's the best anyone could do under the circumstances.

It may be too early to say on FTWD. The group is still split up. Maybe once the group is together again, we can see how future episodes play out. Maybe they do want Morgan to be the leader of this show, or they will turn the leader into Alicia, or perhaps they will keep it as an ensemble thing, where there is no one, real leader.

Maybe the show is transitioning the Morgan character. Like you, I've often picked up an outsider vibe from him. He's a loner, not much of a joiner.

Maybe the last few eps are showing a character arc where he comes to enjoy, or accept, being around people more and being part of a team? 

I did find the Morgan story lines of him going in and out of Crazy Town on the original show to be repetitive, then there was the storyline on that show, and kind of on this one, about him wanting to a Pacifist; that got repetitive, too.

[DrNowsWeightScale]

On 9/10/2018 at 9:27 AM, JackONeill said:

Yeah, I heard that too. But WHY Morgan?

I'm more like Strand. In a ZA, I'm going to be concerned about a safe place to stay, food and alcohol. But watching home movies??? Of peopple I don't know??? Sure, I might watch Smokey and the Bandit, but ...

But then that raises the lack of logic in this show. They can sometimes find a car that works, or some gas, or some food, or some batteries, or some bullets ... but usually only when they don't need them. When they need them, good luck with any of that. And not to mention, we should be past the point of finding good gas and batteries, and cars that work. But ... 

You mean why does the Crazy Lady seem to fixate on Morgan (after having watched his video)?

She told him over the Walkie that he used to be strong, but now he's losing himself and becoming weak.

And she seems to detest weakness.

For some wacko reason I don't grasp, she thinks giving or receiving help makes a person weak, so everyone should be a loner and never ask for help. (Actually, I do come from a family like this, but in the context of this show, I cannot understand why anyone would think it's wrong to get help during a ZA!!)

Maybe Morgan is the first person she's met who she considers strong, because she watched the video, and I think he mentioned he ran away from friends and is on his own. I think in her messed up state of mind, she admires that he was a loner.

But now she seems him trying to help other people, so, she wants to kill his friends off, to make him strong again. 

It will be interesting to see why she's on this kick.

I hope the show explains why this woman is so opposed to people asking for help or giving help because she thinks it's weak, because if I'm living in the zombie apocalypse, contrary to what my own family has taught me (that it's wrong to ask for help), heck yeah, I 'd be okay with receiving help (food, supplies, a safe place to sleep, encouragement) from other people.

I have a very low thresh-hold for boredom, so assuming I have food to eat, etc, if I stumbled across video tapes and a camera in the apocalypse, I'd watch them, if only to be entertained for a few hours. 

On 9/10/2018 at 9:35 AM, nodorothyparker said:

I've long accepted that it's easier to just go with the premise that gas doesn't go bad or that these people can easily find all the batteries for the walkies in the world to waste time chatting up strangers or telling long stories rather than make myself crazy.  Because I will nitpick to the point of making myself crazy if I do.

That's true, too.

I have a brother who nit picks every single movie and TV show. I used to have a college friend who was the same way. I told both of them, when I watch movies/ TV shows, I normally (not always, but usually) suspend my sense of disbelief, because if I don't, I get distracted by things that don't work in real life, etc. Shows/movies are usually more enjoyable if you just go with it.

I do still sometimes notice details that drive me nuts, though.

Edited September 11, 2018 by DrNowsWeightScale

[DrNowsWeightScale]

6 hours ago, Daltrey said:

The two walkers coming down the far bank to the waters edge stopped, turned and looked at each other as if to say "What?!  Oh well, guess there's nothing going on over there after all, may as well turn back." and then actually started to walk back up the bank!

Thank you for mentioning that. I noticed it as I was watching the show but didn't remember to comment on it here.

So true. You see the two or three zombies start ambling towards the water at the sound of the car horn in that scene, but once it stops, the zombies are like (their body language comes off as),

"Well, screw that, no more noise, I guess we'll just instantly pivot and walk back up the bank!"

The "acting" of the actors dressed as those two, three zombies was amateurish in that instance but amusing to watch. 

I think it would've been a tad more realistic to have the zombies in that scene continue walking forward for a bit, even after the horn stopped, before the zombies gradually lose interest, just kind of stop, stand there, and slowly turn around and walk back.

The way the zombie actors portrayed it, though, it looked as though the zombies were thinking (thinking like living people, as though their brains still work and react as quickly as ours!!) when they should be depicted, IMHO, as acting on delayed instinct.

4 hours ago, Jersey Guy 87 said:

I don't buy that - they've been living in the ZA for just as long.  Maybe they have different experiences but they've dealt with zombies and they've dealt with asshole people.  They built up a safe area, they've moved around, etc. 

I guess my impression of it is that Morgan has moved around locations a bit more and has been exposed to a wider variety of people and situations than the Alicia group has.

Alicia was mostly under her mother's wing and guidance while Madison was alive, and they spent a lot of time hiding out the ZA in the yacht at first, then at some family's compound, and then at the stadium.

Morgan seems like more of a drifter, moving to more places, and doing so on his own.

On a previous ep, the show established that the two truckers and the beer guy have next to no experience fighting zombies, or not as much as Morgan.

I dunno.

Edited September 11, 2018 by DrNowsWeightScale

[DrNowsWeightScale]

4 hours ago, Daltrey said:

They definitely SHOULD have as much experience....but they don't seem to ACT like it, much of the time. Whether it's being written that way intentionally or it's life affecting art in the sense that the show hasn't been on as long so the writers are still in that mode of thinking the characters haven't been in universe as long, they should or could have found someone from the original Fear group to take up the leadership mantle. I suspect It's a convenient way to have Morgan transition to the new show without it being a pointless move, other than to hopefully bolster ratings with a familiar, mostly beloved character from the flagship show.

Very true also. Especially this part,

Quote

 

"They definitely SHOULD have as much experience....but they don't seem to ACT like it, much of the time."

 

Morgan (even in spite of his waffling) comes across as seeming more self confident than Alicia and her group, or that's at least my impression.

Sometimes, people can have an equal amount of experience at something, but if they lack self confidence, they may gravitate to the person who is more self-assured.

[DrNowsWeightScale]

4 hours ago, JackONeill said:

I think both groups are now supposed to have the same amount of time under their belts. (Until the new season of TWD, when they make another time jump ahead.) I think the problem has been the writing and acting for FTWD. 

I'm kind of confused about both shows time line at this point, especially FTWD.

I think at this stage (since Morgan is now on here) that both shows are supposed to be at the same point time wise?

So the apocalypse has been going on for something like 3 to 5 years at this point?

But some of the characters on FTWD act as though the ZA just started like six months ago and they're all newbies at it.

(Also, I thought the original intent of the FTWD show was to slow down the ZA and show us how society crumbles form the out-set, but they drifted through that awful quick to bring us to a place where society has totally broken down, like the original show.)

If they're all in the ZA for about 3 - 5 years at this point, I'm confused even more, because I think the show conveyed that John Dorie has been by himself the entire ZA...

But if I remember correctly, he told June (or someone) he was in that cabin by the river for only a single year(?)

If the ZA is at 3-5 yrs at this point, that would mean that Dorie should've been in that cabin for 3-5 yrs, not one year. But maybe I'm not remembering details right.

[OoohMaggie]

3 hours ago, DrNowsWeightScale said:

So the apocalypse has been going on for something like 3 to 5 years at this point?

 

The latest episode of Fear the Walking Dead, is set two years three and a half months into the ZA.

 When the main show returns in October, it will be set just shy of three years into the ZA.

Edited September 11, 2018 by OoohMaggie

[Carl Malone]

I’m actually really enjoying the season despite the obvious BS... #alligator #witchlady. Seriously launch your raft from a different spot and try and land at a different spot. Problem solved. What was that noise when the horn died? John looked towards it but no one acknowledged.

as for the witch lady... just come on. She’s not some magical person who has the ability to take on grown ass men half her age. All the 18 wheeler has to do is hit the brakes when she pulls up along side and she’s done. They might jackknife but they’ll be in prime fighting position.

[Carl Malone]

15 hours ago, Jersey Guy 87 said:

I don't buy that - they've been living in the ZA for just as long.  Maybe they have different experiences but they've dealt with zombies and they've dealt with asshole people.  They built up a safe area, they've moved around, etc. 

I look at it like the east coast is where the main group has spent their time while the west/Midwest is for this group. The east is way more densely populated in comparison to the west. More people equals more chances for shit to go bad.

[Carl Malone]

17 hours ago, Daltrey said:

 

I hereby motion that we officially adopt the moniker of "Witchiepoo", as christened by @icemiser69.

I've been enjoying the last few episodes, for the most part, other than Alicia and Charlie in the house, and this was no exception. The crocigator didn't bother me too much, as sightings were kept to a minimum; Victor going after the scotch bottle on the floor of the truck and the resulting walker tug into the truck and subsequent tumble down the embankment was far more ridiculous, IMO. It clearly came to a rest completely upside down in the water, not resting half on its left side at the waters edge. They must have had a first year student editor in that day for those shots.  Worst, though, had to be when the horn died when the battery ran out. The two walkers coming down the far bank to the waters edge stopped, turned and looked at each other as if to say "What?!  Oh well, guess there's nothing going on over there after all, may as well turn back." and then actually started to walk back up the bank! Then, when John shot at the water, they turned around and started heading to the water again!! I know they react to noise but since when did they have enough wherewithal turn and head back once a noise stops, regardless of what the noise was drawing them towards? Other than that, I thought the rest was fairly solid. As outlined by others upthread, I can understand Morgan's thought processes and why the others may be willing to look to him for some form of leadership.

The writers have been terribly inconsistent with what behavior actually draws walkers. In the main a brief helicopter destroyed the farm after X amount of miles but here we see them turn back. Lol BS. Whenever we see someone trapped in a car or house or bomb shelter the walkers stick with it but in reality if the trapped just shut up and don’t move the walkers should lose interest. I think the writers could have done amazing things, like breaking bad the fly episode, if they were consistent.

[Haleth]

On 9/10/2018 at 9:06 AM, nodorothyparker said:

I'm struck by how much more palatable I'm finding all this than the endless everything is terrible, people are terrible so why try nihilism the mother show has been beating us over the head with since what feels like forever. 

I so agree with you!  This sort of has the feel of the first 2 or 3 years of the mothershow with (mostly) good people trying to pick up the pieces and build something.  I know we've seen this before in this show (the compound in Mexico, the hotel, the stadium, etc) but we knew they were doomed to fail once the Clark entourage showed up.  (That's why we can't have nice things, Madison.)  The new cast is soooo much more interesting than the whiny Clarks.  I've always loved Morgan and think Strand is gold, and now I love John's optimism and Al's unflappability.  The truck driver might have made an interesting addition too.  RIP, truck driver.  I'm not sure yet about the truck thieves or the beer guy.

17 hours ago, DrNowsWeightScale said:

But some of the characters on FTWD act as though the ZA just started like six months ago and they're all newbies at it.

Yeah, as Carl said above, I think it's a matter of population density.  

7 hours ago, Carl Malone said:

Seriously launch your raft from a different spot and try and land at a different spot.

Supposedly they were on an island, but what was over that ridge that Strand climbed to get the truck?  I'd like to know what was on that side of the island that made it more perilous than the alligator.  

So we've had a zombiecane and a zombie-fed gator.  Even the perils are more interesting this season.

[Daltrey]

19 hours ago, DrNowsWeightScale said:

suspend my sense of disbelief

Thank you for using this correctly! Everybody always seems to say belief instead of disbelief and it drives me nuts, lol!

 

19 hours ago, DrNowsWeightScale said:

it looked as though the zombies were thinking

Exactly! I would have found it more believable if they kept heading right into the water or just stopped at the waters edge and stood there like the brain dead  things they are.

[OoohMaggie]

A short Q&A with ‘Wendell’

https://www.amc.com/shows/fear-the-walking-dead/talk/2018/09/spoilers-fear-the-walking-dead-qa-daryl-mitchell-wendell

[DrNowsWeightScale]

On 9/11/2018 at 4:10 PM, OoohMaggie said:

The latest episode of Fear the Walking Dead, is set two years three and a half months into the ZA.

 When the main show returns in October, it will be set just shy of three years into the ZA.

Thank you for the information. 

It seems like it's been much longer, at least for the original TWD.

With Fear The Walking Dead, I go from feeling like it's been more than three years (when thinking of the first batch of characters, such as Madison and Alicia), but with June, Al, and John Dorie, it seems like the show's timeline has only been on for a year. 

[DrNowsWeightScale]

12 hours ago, Haleth said:

...  The new cast is soooo much more interesting than the whiny Clarks.  I've always loved Morgan and think Strand is gold, and now I love John's optimism and Al's unflappability.  The truck driver might have made an interesting addition too.  RIP, truck driver.  I'm not sure yet about the truck thieves or the beer guy.

....So we've had a zombiecane and a zombie-fed gator.  Even the perils are more interesting this season.

John (one of my all time fave characters now) is optimistic, but by the end of the episode, Strand had talked him out of hope.

John looked so forlorn sitting there on the bank by the end of the show. He ate the piece of candy, too - the one that symbolized his hope that he was getting out of there, and he was going to give that candy to June.

Dorie's speech to Strand about how you have to look for something, anything, to hold on to hope (like the piece of candy) sort of reminds me of Madison's speech to her son about the same thing, but with her, I think it was spotting blue bonnet flowers.

I felt so bad for John by the end of that show, being talked out of his hope by Negative Nancy Strand. I like Strand, but the fact that he bummed John out bugged me.

I come from family like Strand - most of them are very negative - and just when you manage to scrape together some hope or positivity all on your own, they knock it out of you with all their non-stop cynicism.

I was hoping to see far more of the Zombiecane than what we got!

As to the alligator: finally, at least we get ONE animal on either TWD show that defeats zombies instead of the other way around.

I'm a big animal person, so it always bothers me on these shows to see squirrels, owls, dogs, horses, a tiger, and other animals get killed by people or by the zombies. For the first time, the tables have turned and an animal is ripping the zombies apart.

11 hours ago, Daltrey said:

Thank you for using this correctly! Everybody always seems to say belief instead of disbelief and it drives me nuts, lol!

 

Exactly! I would have found it more believable if they kept heading right into the water or just stopped at the waters edge and stood there like the brain dead  things they are.

Whoa, I did something correct? Me? (And someone was being nice to someone else on the internet!) Thank you.

 (I'm accustomed to being told by strangers online just how very wrong I am, LOL.)

I did have doubts after I composed it and hit the "submit reply" button.

I looked at that phrase and thought, "Did I get that right? Is it suspend 'disbelief' or 'belief'? I think it's 'disbelief'. Well, if I'm wrong, hopefully nobody here will rag on me too much because of it!"

Yes, the part where it looked almost as though the zombies were thinking about their actions was a little unrealistic. Not that zombies are 100% realistic to start with, but if zombies are a given, you'd think they'd act much more by instinct. As it was, that scene was kind of comical to me.

Edited September 13, 2018 by DrNowsWeightScale

[Daltrey]

46 minutes ago, DrNowsWeightScale said:

Whoa, I did something correct? Me? (And someone was being nice to someone else on the internet!) Thank you.

 (I'm accustomed to being told by strangers online just how very wrong I am, LOL.)

You're welcome! I like to inject some positivity when I can, but man, it's tough, LOL!

 

50 minutes ago, DrNowsWeightScale said:

Yes, the part where it looked almost as though the zombies were thinking about their actions was a little unrealistic.

It's a perfect example to explain "disbelief" as the proper use of that term. Their actions were unrealistic, therefor, you disbelieve that they would act that way; in order to find it acceptable behavior, you must "suspend disbelief", or, in other words, stop yourself from finding it unbelievable in order to enjoy the story. The thing about this scene was, essentially they were background that should have been inconsequential at that point and it was comical that their actions drew the focus from John and Strand. The fact that they are inconsequential forces you to have to suspend your disbelief in order to refocus on the main characters and their current dilemma.

[nodorothyparker]

Reminder:  While it's fine to acknowledge that the mother show exists in general terms, do not discuss major plot points or spoilers here.  That includes character deaths, casting news, or particulars from this past season finale.  This thread is for this show and specifically this episode.  We seem to be creeping back in that direction again, so please be mindful.  As always, posts that violate this may be moved or removed.

[OoohMaggie]

DrNowsWeightScale commented,

Thank you for the information. 

It seems like it's been much longer, at least for the original TWD.

With Fear The Walking Dead, I go from feeling like it's been more than three years (when thinking of the first batch of characters, such as Madison and Alicia), but with June, Al, and John Dorie, it seems like the show's timeline has only been on for a year. 

************************************************************************************************************************

It is is very hard to keep track of ‘show time’ in relation to ‘real time’. For instance, from when Nick woke up in the church next to his girlfriend on day one, to when the dam blew up and Madison was washed up on the river bank, was 64 days ‘show time’

From the first time we ever saw Negan (season 6 finale), until the last time we saw Negan (season 8 finale), was only 29 days ‘showtime’. Unbelievable huh?

It’s no wonder people get confused, and  It’s only because ‘the geeks’ work all these things out that I have the faintest idea where we’re up to in the shows.

Edited September 13, 2018 by OoohMaggie

[connieinnc]

On 9/11/2018 at 6:33 AM, Daltrey said:

 

I hereby motion that we officially adopt the moniker of "Witchiepoo", as christened by @icemiser69.

I've been enjoying the last few episodes, for the most part, other than Alicia and Charlie in the house, and this was no exception. The crocigator didn't bother me too much, as sightings were kept to a minimum; Victor going after the scotch bottle on the floor of the truck and the resulting walker tug into the truck and subsequent tumble down the embankment was far more ridiculous, IMO. It clearly came to a rest completely upside down in the water, not resting half on its left side at the waters edge. They must have had a first year student editor in that day for those shots.  Worst, though, had to be when the horn died when the battery ran out. The two walkers coming down the far bank to the waters edge stopped, turned and looked at each other as if to say "What?!  Oh well, guess there's nothing going on over there after all, may as well turn back." and then actually started to walk back up the bank! Then, when John shot at the water, they turned around and started heading to the water again!! I know they react to noise but since when did they have enough wherewithal turn and head back once a noise stops, regardless of what the noise was drawing them towards? Other than that, I thought the rest was fairly solid. As outlined by others upthread, I can understand Morgan's thought processes and why the others may be willing to look to him for some form of leadership.

i assume the walkers refocused on the sound of the bird squawking after the car horn stopped. IIRC, John Dorie mentioned the bird several times and I couldn't figure out why until that moment.

[Daltrey]

3 hours ago, connieinnc said:

On 9/11/2018 at 3:33 AM, Daltrey said:

I hereby motion that we officially adopt the moniker of "Witchiepoo", as christened by @icemiser69.

I've been enjoying the last few episodes, for the most part, other than Alicia and Charlie in the house, and this was no exception. The crocigator didn't bother me too much, as sightings were kept to a minimum; Victor going after the scotch bottle on the floor of the truck and the resulting walker tug into the truck and subsequent tumble down the embankment was far more ridiculous, IMO. It clearly came to a rest completely upside down in the water, not resting half on its left side at the waters edge. They must have had a first year student editor in that day for those shots.  Worst, though, had to be when the horn died when the battery ran out. The two walkers coming down the far bank to the waters edge stopped, turned and looked at each other as if to say "What?!  Oh well, guess there's nothing going on over there after all, may as well turn back." and then actually started to walk back up the bank! Then, when John shot at the water, they turned around and started heading to the water again!! I know they react to noise but since when did they have enough wherewithal turn and head back once a noise stops, regardless of what the noise was drawing them towards? Other than that, I thought the rest was fairly solid. As outlined by others upthread, I can understand Morgan's thought processes and why the others may be willing to look to him for some form of leadership.

i assume the walkers refocused on the sound of the bird squawking after the car horn stopped. IIRC, John Dorie mentioned the bird several times and I couldn't figure out why until that moment.

Could we still hear the bird squawking at that point , though? I don't remember being able to hear it with everything else that was happening but I suppose it's a sound theory. It seems a bit ridiculous to have that kind of exposition in place to justify odd walker behavior but I guess it's not out of the realm of possibility.

[Iguessnot]

9 hours ago, Daltrey said:

Could we still hear the bird squawking at that point , though? I don't remember being able to hear it with everything else that was happening but I suppose it's a sound theory. It seems a bit ridiculous to have that kind of exposition in place to justify odd walker behavior but I guess it's not out of the realm of possibility.

I'm hard of hearing, so I couldn't hear any squawks, but the closed captioning said there was a squawk. However that's ridiculous writing. Are we going to consider crickets chirping, leaves rustling, water flowing etc. equal distractions?

[Daltrey]

4 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

that's ridiculous writing. Are we going to consider crickets chirping, leaves rustling, water flowing etc. equal distractions?

Exactly what I was thinking. Where do you draw the line? With all the nature noises in that location, they should have been turning in circles, lol.

[connieinnc]

5 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

I'm hard of hearing, so I couldn't hear any squawks, but the closed captioning said there was a squawk. However that's ridiculous writing. Are we going to consider crickets chirping, leaves rustling, water flowing etc. equal distractions?

I use closed captioning because I cannot otherwise follow the dialog. I was struck by the repeated mentions of the squawking, so made the assumption that the walkers also heard and reacted to it, couldn't think of any other reason for it to be important.

[Butless]

Which dick writers took my idea for a big alligator plotline, when I heard they were taking the band to east texas, last year?

 I only wish i had suggested back then that it included sacrificing  Dharma to it.