loki567 February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) And just really disappointing consider Moira and Sara's role in the show and Oliver's life, being fan-favorites, and having a lot of unused storyline potential, the writer's first reaction was to kill them off, while bending over backwards to give John Barrowman a regular spot on the show even if the story doesn't justify it. They're basically signaling that their female characters aren't important to them as their male characters. There are some characters who should not be a regular part of the show and Malcolm is one of them. Why? Because there should never be a scene between him and Oliver where there isn't the possibility of one of them dying. ETA: In fact, it really puts "The Magician," into a completely different light and makes Oliver look even more like a moron. Because if he lets Nyssa kill Malcolm, she probably goes back to Ra's and tells him that Sara's death has been avenged, and WOULD BE COMPLETELY RIGHT! Instead, Oliver and Sara's own sister are on the side of Sara's killer. My god, this storyline just gets worse and worse the more you think about it. Edited February 16, 2015 by loki567 10 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-828995
KirkB February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 As much as I hate to say it, Moira did have to die to justify keeping Malcolm around. All of you who said it are right that Moira would never have allowed Malcolm to influence her kids. Even from prison she would have found a way to have him eliminated. Hell, the first thing she did when he revealed himself and talked about Thea being his daughter was to find the LoA's phone number and personally tell Ra's al Ghul he was alive. There is a reason Malcolm didn't show his face again until after Moira was dead. And I get bending over backwards to keep John Barrowman on the show. He's hugely popular and a lot of fun to watch. But what gets me is they spent all the money and made a big deal out of his becoming a regular, then let whole episodes go by without him actually showing up or doing much of anything. A lot of us here were looking forward to some father/daughter bonding, Merlyn style, but we only got a glimpse of that. I think Arrow's biggest problem is it got too big too fast. It started out with a guy becoming a vigilante to make up for his father's (and to an extent his own) sins and to help his city. He was joined by a former soldier and a techie to do this better. They fought crime. Then they came up against a billionaire psychopath who wanted to destroy part of that city. A typically villainous comic book plot. Then they introduced a drug that turns people into super powered monsters and a world spanning group of ninjas, not to mention a government sponsored villain team led by a...I'm not sure how to describe Waller. Oh, and that billionaire psychopath from the first season came back. It ended with an army of arrow wielding vigilantes going up against an army of super powered serial killers in a battle that damn near trashed the entire city. That was season two! How do you follow that? 15 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-829336
kieyra February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 KirkB, my significant other said, when we finished S2 on Netflix, that he wouldn't bother watching after that because it couldn't be topped. I thought that was weird at the time. Little did I know. Extra twist, I finshed s2 about a week after they killed off Sara, but I was oblivious to S3 events so I was raving about the show to everyone. Then I ran into the bitterness and found out what had happened. I came off the S2 high believing that the showrunners surely realized how unlikeable Laurel was and that she'd continue to be drunk or off screen or tranquilized. Bless my heart. 11 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-830145
somewhereother February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) I think Arrow's biggest problem is it got too big too fast. It started out with a guy becoming a vigilante to make up for his father's (and to an extent his own) sins and to help his city. He was joined by a former soldier and a techie to do this better. They fought crime. Then they came up against a billionaire psychopath who wanted to destroy part of that city. A typically villainous comic book plot. Then they introduced a drug that turns people into super powered monsters and a world spanning group of ninjas, not to mention a government sponsored villain team led by a...I'm not sure how to describe Waller. Oh, and that billionaire psychopath from the first season came back. It ended with an army of arrow wielding vigilantes going up against an army of super powered serial killers in a battle that damn near trashed the entire city. That was season two! How do you follow that? What's strange about it though it has gotten much bigger, the scope for story seems to be reduced. There is no larger context beyond a bunch of masks hanging out together. Roy has no external storylines, Laurel could (DA's office & conflict of interest) but doesn't, Oliver is just the Arrow, Diggle doesn't have a job, Felicity is either Atom, Flash or Arrow, now Thea is just part of LOA storyline. I don't know where they can go from here because any narrative connections for interesting conflicts and interactions with non-mask have been removed. In season One and Two we had Moria & Walter, Laurels friend (for a while), tommy, Blood etc. I also had much more of a sense of the city and its institutions, people etc, so I cared about 'saving' it. Now the city gets damseled every week and I couldn't care less because I don't know anyone who lives in it who is not in the lair. Edited February 16, 2015 by somewhereother 13 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-830667
calliope1975 February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) In season One and Two we had Moria & Walter, Laurels friend (for a while), tommy, Blood etc. I also had much more of a sense of the city and its institutions, people etc, so I cared about 'saving' it. Now the city gets damseled every week and I couldn't care less because I don't know anyone who lives in it who is not in the lair. This is such a good point. I suppose I was supposed to care and be inspired by The Glades folks rising up against Brick, but I didn't care about anyone other than Sin. And that was more of a 'why haven't we seen her all season?' more of a response. All the focus on the LOA and Malcolm has robbed the show of any heart it originally had about saving Starling City and its citizens. Ray wants to save the city. From what? And why? Because he saw Iron Man and thought RDJ was super cool. He's not wrong about that but how about taking that billions he has and instead of buying a chain of retail stores for one employee invest that money back into The Glades and the people. Create some jobs. Mentor some kids. Laurel could do so much more good for the city as an ADA/DA. Change the system. Her flailing around in a thousand buckles isn't helping anyone other than her own ego. Edited February 16, 2015 by calliope1975 18 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-830690
Password February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 Ray wants to save the city. From what? And why? Because he saw Iron Man and thought RDJ was super cool. He's not wrong about that but how about taking that billions he has and instead of buying a chain of retail stores for one employee invest that money back into The Glades and the people. Create some jobs. Mentor some kids. Ex-actly. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-830735
Pyramid February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) My favourite parts of the show were about TA individually and as a unit, and their relationships with each other. My least favourite part of the show was Laurel's ludicrous "rise" to being Black Canary. So what am I bitter about? Fucking burying all the good TA stuff in 2.5 and putting Buckles front and centre. Honestly if they'd just had Laurel pitch up as a fully fledged BC in s03e01 and put all the TA 2.5 stuff into the god damned show I'd 've been a lot happier. So many of this year's problems could've been avoided. Of course you'd still have the disigrace of Sara's death and the laughable awefulness of MM and OQ teaming up. I mean for fuck's sakes. Oh yeah, and Ray ... so little point to Ray I can't be arsed saying anything. Edited February 16, 2015 by Pyramid 11 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-830827
tv echo February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 The fact that they did a storyline in Season 1 where Thea tried to hook up with Tommy is proof to me about how last-second the whole "Thea is Malcolm's kid" storyline was thrown together. Who welcomes a creepy incest storyline on purpose? Shows like Game of Thrones aside. I recall reading somewhere that they originally planned to make Oliver the bio son of Malcolm, but then changed their minds. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-830965
Danny Franks February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 The fact that they did a storyline in Season 1 where Thea tried to hook up with Tommy is proof to me about how last-second the whole "Thea is Malcolm's kid" storyline was thrown together. Who welcomes a creepy incest storyline on purpose? Shows like Game of Thrones aside. The same set of writers who also decided to have Barry Allen's one true love be his pseudo-sister? And who had Oliver swapping between two sisters during the first two years of Arrow? And who had Oliver sleep with his father's old mistress? Someone on this writing staff gets a kick out of incest, I guess. Is it like the next 'cool', 'sexy' trend, after vampires and BDSM fan fic? I'm fairly sure now that this show will end with Oliver and Laurel together. Everything I've seen and heard about the season, and about Laurel, tells me that they'll give Oliver and Felicity some sort of mid-run relationship, to shut fans of the pairing up, and then revert back to them being friends. They'll pair Felicity off with some new pet character, and clear the path for Oliver and Laurel to 'find their way back to one another'. And it'll suck, for anyone left watching who (although, by that time I guess the few people left watching will be Katie Cassidy fans, so maybe they'll actually enjoy it). 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-831002
Morrigan2575 February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 I recall reading somewhere that they originally planned to make Oliver the bio son of Malcolm, but then changed their minds.John Barrowman's husband suggested that it would be better for Malcolm to be Thea's dad instead and they went with it. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-831004
benteen February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) Sadly I think you're right about a lot of that, Danny. Edited February 16, 2015 by benteen 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-831005
newbie February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 A terrible prospekt and a killer for the fun in the show. Who hates the viewer so much? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-831020
kismet February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 The same set of writers who also decided to have Barry Allen's one true love be his pseudo-sister? And who had Oliver swapping between two sisters during the first two years of Arrow? And who had Oliver sleep with his father's old mistress? Someone on this writing staff gets a kick out of incest, I guess. Is it like the next 'cool', 'sexy' trend, after vampires and BDSM fan fic? I'm fairly sure now that this show will end with Oliver and Laurel together. Everything I've seen and heard about the season, and about Laurel, tells me that they'll give Oliver and Felicity some sort of mid-run relationship, to shut fans of the pairing up, and then revert back to them being friends. They'll pair Felicity off with some new pet character, and clear the path for Oliver and Laurel to 'find their way back to one another'. And it'll suck, for anyone left watching who (although, by that time I guess the few people left watching will be Katie Cassidy fans, so maybe they'll actually enjoy it). Agree with u that this is all a sad possibility. Sadly, I just can't use like button cuz I just don't like it. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-831332
benteen February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) Like I said, I think the writers are too hung up on the Laurel character, too hung up on their original plan, and too hung up on comic book canon (which changes constantly) to deviate from their original plan. Edited February 16, 2015 by benteen 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-831934
statsgirl February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 John Barrowman's husband suggested that it would be better for Malcolm to be Thea's dad instead and they went with it. I do think it makes for better plots (MM as Oliver's father would be so old and tired, which explains why they were planning on it). That's what has me bashing my head on the desk -- that these EPs know can see when something better comes up (MM as Thea's dad, Felicity, Olicity) so why do they keep giving up that tired old crap? I really thought "no, they're not going to go there to have Oliver see Ray kissing Felicity"..... and then they did. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-832033
SonofaBiscuit February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) I'm bitter that legitimate complaints about the show made on MG's Tumblr are dismissed. No, Ray isn't a creepy stalker, he's a professional stalker who "plenty of people like." Felicity's light comment to Laurel wasn't an insult to Sara, she was just pointing out that Sara was a tortured soul. Roy isn't a waffler, there is absolutely no contradiction in the way he's being portrayed. It doesn't matter how much feedback MG receives on these issues, he'll continue to ignore the responses. Edited February 16, 2015 by SonofaBiscuit 22 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-832058
TanyaKay February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) I'm bitter that legitimate complaints about the show made on MG's Tumblr are dismissed. No, Ray isn't a creepy stalker, he's a professional stalker who "plenty of people like." Felicity's light comment to Laurel wasn't an insult to Sara, she was just pointing out that Sara was a tortured soul. Nothing rankled me more than that light comment that Felicity made about Laurel. I mean WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK! For starter, Felicity knows jack about Laurel, she was either being damseled in season one or trying to capture Arrow in early season 2 or was drunk or tranqed or both in later half of season 2. In season 3, she was in the lair acting all entitled and bossy. As late as episode 3x03, Felicity asked if they were friends and now all of a sudden she saw this light in her that we were unable to see in 2.5 seasons and counting? What about the darkness that Laurel herself talked about when she was talking to Helena or when she blackmailed the DA Kate Spencer? This show has been trying to turn Laurel into a hero since season 1 and they are still failing at it. Now they just make me gag every time she appears on TV. At least I had the option of fast forwarding her in previous seasons but now that she is in every scene in the foundry and with Felicity, how am I gonna survive this? I am so bitter about it. Edited February 16, 2015 by TanyaKay 13 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-832644
jay741982 February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 I'm bitter that legitimate complaints about the show made on MG's Tumblr are dismissed. No, Ray isn't a creepy stalker, he's a professional stalker who "plenty of people like." Felicity's light comment to Laurel wasn't an insult to Sara, she was just pointing out that Sara was a tortured soul. Roy isn't a waffler, there is absolutely no contradiction in the way he's being portrayed. It doesn't matter how much feedback MG receives on these issues, he'll continue to ignore the responses. Yeah it's really troubling that he Doesnt want to listen to complaints I'm really starting to dislike him severely. These are legitimate gripes that more than a few are sharing. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-832664
statsgirl February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 Now they just make me gag every time she appears on TV. At least I had the option of Fast forwarding her in previous season but now that she is in every scene in the foundry and with Felicity, how am I gonna survive this? I am so bitter about it. There aren't enough likes in my quota to give your comment the credit it deserves. The beatification of Laurel has been ridiculous and OOC, and when I think that she's going to be around in every scene in the lair, I wonder if it's even worth watching the show for the little good I get out of it. AK tweeted that we can preorder the box set of s3 right. Yeah, right. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-832763
Danny Franks February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 AK tweeted that we can preorder the box set of s3 right. Yeah, right. Can we not get our money back on the season 1 boxed set instead? That's something that would actually interest me. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-832818
TanyaKay February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) There aren't enough likes in my quota to give your comment the credit it deserves. The beatification of Laurel has been ridiculous and OOC, and when I think that she's going to be around in every scene in the lair, I wonder if it's even worth watching the show for the little good I get out of it. AK tweeted that we can preorder the box set of s3 right. Yeah, right. Thanks a lot for the kind words, but I am just so bitter about it all. Between her being in the lair and her being part of the most of the fight scenes, KC's screen time has been increased a lot in season 3B comparison with season 2 or 3A . You know what makes it worse - it will affect her presence in coming seasons. More screen time this season will help her renegotiate her contract for upcoming seasons. I am willing to bet that she may even get them to put it in the contract that L/O would be end game couple (not really) and that she must get at least 8-10 minutes of screen time in every episode she appears in. This makes me even more bitter than I was feeling before and that is saying something. There is a reason why Flarrow crossover this season and The Scientist last season were the best and most watched episodes. They had little or no Laurel and they had vintage Team Arrow working with Barry to fight the bad guys with some lighter moments thrown in for levity. That is the show I want to watch, not this disaster where everyone with Super hero destiny is getting un deserved screen time and character development and fan favorites like Diggle and Felicity are side lined. Edited February 17, 2015 by TanyaKay 10 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-832821
Chaser February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 (edited) I have a hard time believing any actress has the power to say who ends up together. If she is hired to play Laurel Lance/Black Canary, then I can understand contractual obligations to make her BC. Though I really believe the EPs wanted her as BC so she is. Assuming that one can make that claim on a contract, SA trumps KC. Maybe I put to much faith in a facial expression, but something tells me he wouldn't like that. Edited February 16, 2015 by 10Eleven12 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-832852
TanyaKay February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 I have a hard time believing any actress has the power to say who ends up together. If she is hired to play Laurel Lance/Black Canary, then I can understand contractual obligations to make her BC. Though I really believe the EPs wanted her as BC so she is. of course I was being ridiculous about what she was going to put in her contract, I know it for a fact that it is impossible for anyone to do that. I was just me venting my bitterness. I hope no one will take my ranting about her dictating a storyline seriously. Though I was serious about her getting to increase her screen time to fit in her status as second lead or regarding monetary compensation. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-832884
Chaser February 16, 2015 Share February 16, 2015 I figured, but I've seen other people mention it to so I was a little unsure. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-832895
SonofaBiscuit February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 Another thing that I'm bitter about is they way that MG uses Olicity fans for financial gain. He puts all of the good Olicity developments in the comics and profits off of the fans who are yearning for these moments in the show. When asked if he would release the deleted Olicity mansion kiss, he said "maybe we'll use it to raise money for a good cause or something" (this was back in December before the Twitter trend that got it released). I mean, yay! for fundraising for good causes, but has anyone ever seen him say these types of things to other portions of the Arrow fandom? Then after the deleted kiss was actually released, MG retweeted some Olicity fan's tweet that said that people should buy his book as a thank you. It must have worked because later MG tweeted something about how his book sold out and he probably had Olicity fans to thank for that. I feel like he doesn't respect his audience at all, but he has no problems profiting from their loyalty to this show. 15 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-833707
writersblock51 February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 Another thing that I'm bitter about is they way that MG uses Olicity fans for financial gain. He puts all of the good Olicity developments in the comics and profits off of the fans who are yearning for these moments in the show. When asked if he would release the deleted Olicity mansion kiss, he said "maybe we'll use it to raise money for a good cause or something" (this was back in December before the Twitter trend that got it released). I mean, yay! for fundraising for good causes, but has anyone ever seen him say these types of things to other portions of the Arrow fandom? Then after the deleted kiss was actually released, MG retweeted some Olicity fan's tweet that said that people should buy his book as a thank you. It must have worked because later MG tweeted something about how his book sold out and he probably had Olicity fans to thank for that. I feel like he doesn't respect his audience at all, but he has no problems profiting from their loyalty to this show. Thank you - this is exactly what he does and I find it appalling while also understandable. There's more stuff shown of Original Team Arrow and Olicity, it seems, in the 2.5 comics than on the show. I wonder how he feels about Diggle and Felicity not being in the new run of the Green Arrow comics starting in June? Two of his cash cows, so to speak, not in the comics. Guess there will be an Arrow 3.5 comic run to keep fans happy? It's hard to shake the feeling that he views fans of Team Arrow and Olicity for their wallets only. I get that there's a bottom line and I'm fine with that. But it's the entertainment industry. Push fans too far, they stop buying and watching and reading and move onto another comic series, book or show/movie. 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-834110
Shanna February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 Thank you - this is exactly what he does and I find it appalling while also understandable. There's more stuff shown of Original Team Arrow and Olicity, it seems, in the 2.5 comics than on the show. I wonder how he feels about Diggle and Felicity not being in the new run of the Green Arrow comics starting in June? Two of his cash cows, so to speak, not in the comics. Guess there will be an Arrow 3.5 comic run to keep fans happy? It's hard to shake the feeling that he views fans of Team Arrow and Olicity for their wallets only. I get that there's a bottom line and I'm fine with that. But it's the entertainment industry. Push fans too far, they stop buying and watching and reading and move onto another comic series, book or show/movie. Wait there is a bunch of good stuff in comics (which I will never ever read or buy) instead of the show? Now I'm bitter about that. I think this show is such mess I am afraid to watch it. I am going to wait until I know there will be good felicity or Diggle or Oliver I guess before I watch because I'm not watching this show for laurel and Roy (sorry roy). My main problem is that the choices they are making on Malcolm are so incredibly dumb that it takes me completely out of the show and the drama of it all. And there is no fun team arrow to allow me to gloss over it. All there is is a ton of stupid decisions, laurel, and then using felicity to try to sell crazy eyes Brandon routh to me. I am beyond angry that felicity can't get her own stories because she is so damn popular they are just using her to try to sell other characters. That is not respectful to feleciity, ebr, or the fans. 8 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-834544
tv echo February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 (edited) The Season 3 poster has proven to be representative of this season. Just as Laurel displaced Diggle in importance on the poster, so has Laurel displaced Diggle as a fighter on Team Arrow - despite being less skilled and less experienced - just because she wears a costume. The EPs are slowly marginalizing Diggle and will justify it by throwing him a Suicide Squad or ARGUS episode once per season. MG has admitted that they've been struggling with the Diggle character. But they won't get rid of him - not because he's such a great character, which he is (and greatly underappreciated) - but because he's the only POC on the show. It's just like the TCAs, where DR's presence on the Flarrow panel was a glaring exception to their alleged theme of costumed heroes and villains. He was obviously there to break up their all-white panel.* * Wentworth Miller doesn't count because he usually plays white characters, as evidenced by all those roles where his character has a white sibling (Dominic Purcell on Prison Break, Ali Larter on Resident Evil: Afterlife, Peyton List on The Flash). This show is becoming less about Oliver's journey and more about having a national TV platform to market and develop brand name recognition for DC properties (comic characters, comics, toys, games, spin-offs, movies). Edited February 17, 2015 by tv echo 21 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-834712
statsgirl February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 * Wentworth Miller doesn't count because he usually plays white characters, as evidenced by all those roles where his character has a white sibling (Dominic Purcell on Prison Break, Ali Larter on Resident Evil: Afterlife, Peyton List on The Flash). Yes. It made me so angry that people said "it's not such a white panel, David Ramsey and Wentworth Miller are black. Uh, no, Wentworth Miller is black only if you know his personal background. My cousin is darker skinner than he is and she's completely Caucasian. Today I'm bitter because the show takes the middle of winter episodes to make crappy stories about characters I don't care about, and this is exactly when I need hope and lightness. It's too dark too early, it's below 0 outside and I have to put on coat, hat, boots and gloves just to bring the garbage bins in. I need hope and fun, not Laurel and everyone fighting with Oliver. 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-835342
Morrigan2575 February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 (edited) I might actually be ill if I have to watch Nyssa/Laurel bonding. It would be SO unearned and I have this terrible feeling it's coming after their last interaction. I'll cry if badass Nyssa gets added to the list of characters who are being used as props this season :( It already did happen. The show follows the same path with Laurel this season. Step 1: Character comes in makes a negative comment against Laurel that is found on the internet Step 2: Laurel "proves" them wrong Step 3: Character reverses their opinion and Laurel is now "worthy". As for Nyssa, she was one of the first victims, IIRC. Didn't she give Laurel crap about not being worthy of Sara's jacket in 304 and then by the end of the episode she reversed her opinion? Edited February 17, 2015 by Morrigan2575 11 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-836437
apinknightmare February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 As for Nyssa, she was one of the first victims, IIRC. Didn't she give Laurel crap about not being worthy of Sara's jacket in 304 and then by the end of the episode she reversed her opinion? Yes! Laurel reminded Nyssa that the strongest metal is forged in the hottest fire, baby! Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-836505
poetgirl925 February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 Oh jeez, I had forgotten that (or more likely intentionally blocked it from my memory.) I think it's highly doubtful I'll make it to the end of the season without taking a break. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-836711
tv echo February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 (edited) I wouldn't be surprised if even the great and powerful Ra's is used as prop duty -- like giving his blessing to Nyssa training Laurel because he can see the 'fire' in her. Edited February 17, 2015 by tv echo 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-836739
catrox14 February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 I wouldn't be surprised if even the great and powerful Ra's is used as prop duty -- like giving his blessing to Nyssa training Laurel because he can see the 'fire' in her. If only Nyssa would set fire to her instead.... 8 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-836815
statsgirl February 17, 2015 Share February 17, 2015 You know, I'd love to see the great Ra's doing prop duty. It would show just how really ridiculous this all is. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-836910
strikera0 February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 If Nyssa really turns out to be Laurel's new trainer, is there any chance that she could end up falling in love with her as well? You know, sister swapping of a different kind... Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-837021
TanyaKay February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 They can always make Ra'as fall for her. If I recall correctly, Ra'as did date Dinah briefly in the comics. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-837079
Danny Franks February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 They can always make Ra'as fall for her. If I recall correctly, Ra'as did date Dinah briefly in the comics. For about three issues of Birds of Prey. But Dinah didn't know he was Ra's Al Ghul, and dumped him pretty violently when she found out. I think that was during Chuck Dixon's run on the book. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-837092
wonderwall February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 Worst thing about Arrow is that I still love the show. Well, not this season, but the SHOW itself. I love Felicity, Diggle, and Oliver and even though all three of these characters have sort of been marginalized, I have hope that the show can get back to the core. MG has shown that he can still write a good series based on the comics. Idk... I wish I stopped liking the show so it would be easier to break up with it. :p 9 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-837948
Guest February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 Sadly, I have no hope for this show anymore. The great days of Original Team Arrow are long gone - MG even admitted that. And with Olicity slowly being ruined bit by bit, Felicity being turned into a pod person for other characters benefit, and them admitting they have no clue what to do with Diggle, there is seriously nothing to keep me invested anymore. The sad thing is I'm still attached because I only binge-watched this show last year so it's still newish to me and I'm having trouble breaking away completely. I've made a start but it's difficult when you know the show can be so much more. I must be a masochist. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-838564
kismet February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 Im bitter that "because comics" can now be used as an excuse & motivator for everything on the show good & bad. It is inspired & based upon comics, but if it was just a comic series, it would be just that a comic series. I watch the TV show, which is not necessarily the comics, as they have already so pleasantly reminded us multiple times. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to be a comic book fan & have them going off plot/character but then reeling it back enough to give some head knodding to canon. I have no problem mining from good source material, but its mind boggling all the source materials we have to wade through to get the actual story. Audiences shouldn't have to buy additional comics to see character growth & development after the fact. If you want me to read Season 2.5, don't release it during season 3, when you've already fried all the development you apparently made in 2.5. Release it in the summer. Otherwise, don't make it part of canon. As it stands now, in order to understand & appreciate what is going on on Arrow, Im supposed to watch the actual show, watch the Flash, read Arrow comics, ignore some but not all of the green arrow comics, decipher MG's tumblr & ego. There is just too many ways they are trying to tell the story, which would even be fine if it was sequential, but its all over the place & whats worse is some of that lack of synergy is beginning to show up on the screen. 9 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-838591
Password February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 (edited) Oh yeah I'm definitely getting more and more bitter about the 2.5 comics. It's one of the reasons I would've preferred they started up right after the Slade attacks, rather than the 5 month jump. Olicity, team Arrow, Roy. Things I actually would've preferred to see develop onscreen so that I can be invested in them are shoved into comics that, surprise surprise, are better than the show. The bitterness is strong right now. I don't particularly care for anything happening on the show atm because Oliver is acting stupid, team Arrow is at odds, Laurel is Laurel and Ray is getting more screen time. Not to mention the ridiculous Malcolm plot with Ra's hanging over them too. And NO ONE IS TALKING. What was so great about season 1 was I really felt like a story was being told. Moira was golden because she was such a grey character, the introduction of Felicity with her snark and unabashed staring at Oliver, seeing how different Oliver was with his family in comparison to TA, the Merlyn job. Back then the only thing I disliked was Laurel and the triangle. There was this amazing sense of mystery about the show that they never got back. Even though season 2a was filled with so much goodness it never reached the awesome suspense of the book and the Glades. Edited February 18, 2015 by Limbo 8 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-838654
Chaser February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 Laurel is killing the show for me. I hate her. I know they think that hate is better than apathy, but I have to disagree in Laurel's case; This character is an infectious disease. 16 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-840164
SonofaBiscuit February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 (edited) Laurel is killing the show for me. I hate her. I know they think that hate is better than apathy, but I have to disagree in Laurel's case; This character is an infectious disease. Things have become so awful that I would gladly go back to season 2, where she was a pill-popping boozy sequestered in her own storyline of suckitude (or missing, and nobody even noticed). Edited February 18, 2015 by SonofaBiscuit 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-840193
tv echo February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 (edited) I recently stumbled across an article written last fall by someone defending Laurel. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, so nothing's the matter with defending (or criticizing) any character on any TV show. However, that article turned me off just because the writer's overall tone was condescending and said stuff like the "bulk" of people who don't like Laurel are just being irrational, don't understand the show or character, aren't thinking, etc. So the writer set out to "educate" people with his article and prided himself on having changed several people's minds about Laurel after they read his article. I didn't want to post the article link because I don't want to stir up things here. I'll just say that the writer is one who posted a positive episode review of "Canaries". Edited February 18, 2015 by tv echo Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-840342
wonderwall February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 (edited) I recently stumbled across an article written last fall by someone defending Laurel. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, so nothing's the matter with defending (or criticizing) any character on any TV show. However, that article turned me off just because the writer's overall tone was condescending and said stuff like the "bulk" of people who don't like Laurel are just being irrational, don't understand the show or character, aren't thinking, etc. So the writer set out to "educate" people with his article and prided himself on having changed several people's minds about Laurel after they read his article. I didn't want to post the article link because I don't want to stir up things here. I'll just say that the writer is one who posted a positive episode review of "Canaries". When an article/person has to attack a group of people saying they're 'irrational' in order to prove their point, you know their argument isn't a sound one, nor should it be worth your time. Ad hominem is that person's fallacy. And that person should honestly stop writing opinion pieces if they can't back up their arguments with sound evidentiary support, because they clearly are poor at it. Edited February 18, 2015 by wonderwall Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-840381
Morrigan2575 February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 I recently stumbled across an article written last fall by someone defending Laurel. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, so nothing's the matter with defending (or criticizing) any character on any TV show. However, that article turned me off just because the writer's overall tone was condescending and said stuff like the "bulk" of people who don't like Laurel are just being irrational, don't understand the show or character, aren't thinking, etc. So the writer set out to "educate" people with his article and prided himself on having changed several people's minds about Laurel after they read his article. I didn't want to post the article link because I don't want to stir up things here. I'll just say that the writer is one who posted a positive episode review of "Canaries". jbuffyangel or GATV both posted their thesis in defense of Laurel Lance last year. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-840440
Genki February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 (edited) Between the current spoilers and the upcoming episode hiatus, I think I'm going to be stuck with a back-log of Arrow episodes while I wait for the show to become less frustrating and awful. I'm also wondering if people should be more vocal about the elements they dislike on the show since that seems to be rewarded by the show runners, as per MG's answer about the majority of hate in S2 was for Laurel not being BC. I thought it was obvious by the lack of fan generated content for Laurel Fiction/vids/tumblr that she was not a popular character. Not to mention the worst character polls and negative comments when she found out about Oliver and when she entered the Arrow cave for the first time, but obviously this was too subtle for MG et.al and what they took away was the show needs MORE Laurel. SMH Frankly the show has gone so far off-course from what made it good and there doesn't seem to be signs of any course correction. Frustratingly there is still no reason for the point of it all, except to make Laurel BC and introduce the Atom and blah blah Ra's. The more they delve into the new unearned BC arc the more bitter I become about Sara's death and she was only an OK character for me. I really hope there are some behind the scene changes between seasons because frankly S3 is a complete write off. Edited February 19, 2015 by MostlyC No Spoilers on this thread 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-840443
Password February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 (edited) There are no spoilers in this thread because if it hasn't happened yet, it doesn't belong here. Edited February 19, 2015 by MostlyC No spoilers in this thread Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-840458
tv echo February 18, 2015 Share February 18, 2015 (edited) jbuffyangel or GATV both posted their thesis in defense of Laurel Lance last year. It's neither of those sites. It was on moviepilot.com. Edited February 18, 2015 by tv echo Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/7318-target-practice-poisoned-arrow-the-bitterness-thread/page/47/#findComment-840471
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