Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Shanna]

I am bitter because as of tonight, Oliver is working with the man who killed Sara, against the man trying to avenge her death.

e.

That's what I was thinking too. Oliver should have gone to Nyssa and explained to her what happened and the league and Oliver should have teamed up against Malcolm. That is what should be happening here because all of this is Malcolm's fault. Felicity is completely right about this.

The only thing that will make me happy is if this is a massive attempt to guilt trip Malcolm into taking all blame for Sara's death and fighting Ra's.

[Sakura12]

So not only was Sara killed and dumped on a dumpster, but now her one-time lover and her sister don't even care about avenging her murder (or getting 'justice' for her) any more.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Sara.

 

That's why I don't want Sara to come back again, they are just going to ruin the character to prop up Laurel. Who is looking more and more like a mental case. 

 

They are even having repeat lines that Sara said. She told Felicity and Diggle that Oliver was lucky to have them in his life. Now Laurel apparently said the same thing to Felicity.

[tv echo]

Having just read through a slew of "Uprising" reviews, my heart hurts.  If the EPs' intent is to destroy the Felicity character and the Olicity relationship, then they've made a 'great' start.

Edited February 5, 2015 by tv echo

[moviewhore]

Oliver can go fuck himself now.  "Oh, I know you mindfucked my sister into killing Sara but could you please train me to fight, Malcolm?"  I was speechless with that bullshit.  Sara died for nothing since apparently all's forgiven.  I almost wish now that Ollie had died for real cause this guy isn't the Ollie I loved at all. 

[Sakura12]

I think the fact that Sara was tossed at a garbage, stuffed in a freezer, buried in an old grave and her death kept from the two people that actually care about her is supposed to show us how little Sara meant to this show. 

[Danny Franks]

So not only was Sara killed and dumped on a dumpster, but now her one-time lover and her sister don't even care about avenging her murder (or getting 'justice' for her) any more.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Sara.

 

That seems to be the attitude of the writers. They've done their best to reduce her to a dim, hazy memory, and I'm sure that the next episode will be the last time she's ever referred to, unless Laurel needs to bitch about all the bad things that happen to her. It seems clear to me that the writers and EPs regret ever employing Caity Lotz, because she made their futile quest to turn Laurel into a relevant hero that much harder.

 

I don't know what the mentality is of people who enjoy this show now, and buy Laurel as a real vigilante, and I think I'd rather not know. People who watch television without engaging their brains will forever be a mystery to me. But there are lots of them, as evidenced by the success of so much terrible television.

[Carrie Ann]

That's what I was thinking too. Oliver should have gone to Nyssa and explained to her what happened and the league and Oliver should have teamed up against Malcolm. That is what should be happening here because all of this is Malcolm's fault. Felicity is completely right about this.

The only thing that will make me happy is if this is a massive attempt to guilt trip Malcolm into taking all blame for Sara's death and fighting Ra's.

 

This is driving me nuts. Last night just threw it into relief for me, again, that of the people closest to Sara, only one of them knows the whole truth of what happened to her--Oliver. Only two were allowed to know she died (not counting the rest of TA because their relationships with Sara were a question mark for the audience), and then everyone else who found out has done so at Laurel's discretion. No one bothered to tell Sin or Dinah, no one has the balls to tell Quentin, no one tried to contact Nyssa.

 

And it's that last one that's really killing me. The show has no respect for that relationship at all. And I know Nyssa is a bit of a moral absolutist, but I strongly believe she shares Sara's ethos that no woman should suffer at the hands of men. I think she would not see Thea at fault in killing Sara, and would even want to protect her from Malcolm and Ra's if she could. But that would require people to allow others to absorb information and make decisions for themselves, and we must protect the womenfolk and the infirm from dangerous information.

[catrox14]

l will be bitter on Stephen's behalf at his show being usurped into Justice-Ish League.  Unless Stephen has gone to the showrunners and said, "Okay, I'm dying from exhaustion. I need more time off. Please write me out a little.  I don't care how you do it", this entire season has been about the half to quarter-assed "journey" of Laurel. It's not been about Oliver Queen's journey to being the Green Arrow. I'm over the introduction of the pantheon of heroes.  I want it back to Oliver and having people orbit Oliver. 

 

I am hopeful last night's episode is going to get Arrow being about you know the Green Fucking Arrow. 

[strikera0]

This is driving me nuts. Last night just threw it into relief for me, again, that of the people closest to Sara, only one of them knows the whole truth of what happened to her--Oliver. Only two were allowed to know she died (not counting the rest of TA because their relationships with Sara were a question mark for the audience), and then everyone else who found out has done so at Laurel's discretion. No one bothered to tell Sin or Dinah, no one has the balls to tell Quentin, no one tried to contact Nyssa.

 

And it's that last one that's really killing me. The show has no respect for that relationship at all. And I know Nyssa is a bit of a moral absolutist, but I strongly believe she shares Sara's ethos that no woman should suffer at the hands of men. I think she would not see Thea at fault in killing Sara, and would even want to protect her from Malcolm and Ra's if she could. But that would require people to allow others to absorb information and make decisions for themselves, and we must protect the womenfolk and the infirm from dangerous information.

 

Honestly, I don't think the writers were ever interested in exploring a same-sex relationship on this show. If they did, they wouldn't have brushed it under the carpet as quickly as they did by having Sara jump Oliver's magic peen at the end of HTTD. This may sound harsh, but I think they basically only threw the Sara/Nyssa thing into the plotline to tantalize viewers and score some brownie points with the media by showing how "progressive" they are.

[calliope1975]

But dontcha know? When you kill all the poor people dead at the disenfranchised neighborhood, rich folks can gentrify it and make it pretty and better so no more rich people get killed on the streets. Malcolm'S logic is totally sound.

/sarcasm font

 

The whole class issue is a huge part of Malcolm's plan that's being ignored. (No surprise there - these writers are terrible.) Just like the mayor just conceding that Brick now ran the Glades. No, that's just...not how anything works ever. I am willing to suspend my disbelief because I am watching a hyper real show, but I am not an idiot. Please don't treat me like one. 

 

Honestly, I don't think the writers were ever interested in exploring a same-sex relationship on this show. If they did, they wouldn't have brushed it under the carpet as quickly as they did by having Sara jump Oliver's magic peen at the end of HTTD. This may sound harsh, but I think they basically only threw the Sara/Nyssa thing into the plotline to tantalize viewers and score some brownie points with the media by showing how "progressive" they are.

 

Absolutely. They wouldn't even use "bisexual." It was absolutely a pat on the back moment without doing any follow up. It could have been great if Sara was alive to have flashbacks to how their romantic relationship began, but TIIC opted to throw Sara out with the trash. As much as I'll miss her (and I'll always consider her the Black Canary of Arrowverse) I hope Caity Lotz never returns after this next episode. They don't deserve her.

 

I read a bunch of the Felicity hate on Facebook before backing slowly away from that page. I will concede that part of it is that Felicity was always the bright spot of a very dark show and they've removed that. But a lot of it (most of it) is not wanting to deal with those pesky wimmens and their stupid emotions. I don't remember this type of criticism when Oliver fucking flounced off to the island and was quite whiny himself about his manpain. 

[thuganomics85]

Well, it's been over twelve hours, and I"m still pissed over the whole "Malcolm Merlyn isn't that bad of a guy" spiel from this episode.  In order to retain some sanity and humor myself, I decided to just invent or expand ways to make every villain be portrayed as redeemable or sympathetic; actions be damn.  It was fun!  To the list:

 

Brick: Bad guy?  Nah, the poor sap was clearly a guy who just had a rough childhood.  His parents weren't probably around, so he just needed to what he needed to do to survive "the streets."  In other words, he didn't choose the gang life; the gang life chose him!

Vertigo: Breaking Bad already taught us that drug lords can be cool.  So, Vertigo isn't some evil man who killed folks and pushed harmful drugs on the poor and desperate: he's just DC's Walter White!  Say his name.  SAY.  HIS. NAME!  "Vertigo."  You're goddamn right!!!

Slade: Already got a jump on that.  He was just a normal mercenary, who fell in love!  And, had it taken from him.  Plus, have you seen Ollie's flashback hair?  Having to see that for months would make any person go crazy!

Ra's: Some might see him as The Demon.  I see him as a single father, trying his best to raise his daughter, and sometimes that requires being a leader of a dangerous assassin league, to make ends meet.  Sometimes, that require you to kill everyone, kick former billionaires off mountains, and hiring annoying DJs to spy on mind-controlled victims (not to mention, annoy a good portion of the viewing audience.)  And, maybe he could be more respectful of his daughter's choice in girlfriends, but dammit, he's trying!

China White: The Triad (or gangs in general, really), seem like a male-dominated industry.  But, by golly, China has shattered that glass ceiling, and shown that women can be just as successful!  She shouldn't be hated; she should be respected!  An inspiration to us all!

Isabel: Like China, she is/was a woman in what could be considered a male-dominated society, but showed them how it's done.  You can't play nice in the business world!  Sometimes you've got to take advantage of those former party-going billionaires!  And, occasionally work alongside crazy, one-eyed mercenaries, who wanted to cause anarchy.  And her harsh treatment towards Felicity?  She was just trying to toughen her up!

Sebastian Blood: Simple: he truly loved the Glades.  Sure, that meant he was willing to form his own violent cult, allowed his main donor to kill off him main competition, and a few other nasty deeds.  But, it's the thought that counts!

Amanda Waller: Mommy issues.  Hear me out!  I still believe that this Amanda is actually the daughter of a more successful Amanda Waller (played by CCH Pounder, of course), and she always lived under her shadow.  She inherited ARGUS from her, so she has to prove her worth!  Sometimes, that requires being willing to bomb a city or form a squad consisting of former criminals and killers.

 

You see, they aren't bad!  Team Arrow doesn't need to take them out; they just need to all talk it over, and then everyone can hug it out!  Maybe even have a Return of the Jedi Ewok-like dance party, complete with Ollie wistfully looking around, and seeing ghost versions of Moira, Sara, and Tommy, smiling proudly at him.  Team Flash can come over too, so Barry can serenade everyone with "Summer Lovin."  Cue credits.

Edited February 5, 2015 by thuganomics85

[Menrva]

I'm pretty offended that they were never serious about Sara and Nyssa. It was just a publicity stunt 'cause, ooo, women kissing women is soooo hot. Not, hey, here's two, strong, brave people who love each other and isn't that awesome? Because as so many here have stated, Caity Lotz deserves better than how her character is being treated.

 

I would like the writers to draw a freaking roadmap of where they want to take their stories, because I feel really lost here. Then they can see, oh, you know what? We totally took a wrong turn here; we'd better get back on track. I'm even ok with taking the scenic route sometimes, as long as I'm not getting dragged through a narrative wasteland, as they're doing now. Unless they lost the map or never had one to begin with. Or worse yet, all roads lead to Laurel Lance as BC. Oliver Queen has been relegated to a quaint stop along the way to JusticeLeagueVille.

 

I am hoping that Oliver training with Malcolm is more of a "Keep your enemies closer" situation. And honestly, I really feel like Ra's, instead of hunting Oliver down, saying, "You survived me killing you. Guess we're even. Now, where did you say Malcolm Merlyn was hiding?"

 

And seriously, I know this show is about Oliver Queen and it's really what keeps me coming back, despite my frustrations, but can we stop dumbing down the women and killing them off? As a female viewer, it's pretty offensive and discouraging.

[hogwash]

Remeber when Thea wouldn't speak to Moira or visit her in prison because Moira's complicity in the Undertaking and constant lies? Moira  should have pretended to know some ninja moves and sword (katana?) fighting. That's the easiest to earn back Thea's undying loyalty and trust. My burning rage at that particular storyline has cooled considerably by now since I actually stopped watching the show before the "brainwashed Thea killed Sara" reveal. Everything in S03 before that particular reveal felt like 2B to me with the retcons, stupid decisions, even stupider motivations, etc. So, I went back to watching the show on tumblr (yay, pretty gifsets with none of the utterly and bafflingly stupid context!).

 

But I streamed Uprising live (with 6+ other tabs open to minimize the amount of stupid I would be subjected to) for Oliver's return and YIKES! It's like the "brainwashed Thea killed Sara" is infecting the show with its stupid. I didn't think the show could top Slade's dumb as HELL "I was in love with Shado(???). Oliver killed her (??????) and now I hate him (????)." Congrats on brainwashed Thea, Arrow! You've truly outdone yourself!

 

It has exact same issues as Slade's crap motivation. Except it's even dumber and tied to every major arc (except Ray's if you needed more proof that he's irrelevant). Sara's murder? Brainwashed Thea killed her. Laurel!Canary? Brainwashed Thea killed Sara. Oliver protecting Merlyn against the LOA (the 1st time)? Brainwashed Thea killed Sara. LOA threatening Starling? Brainwashed Thea killed Sara (+Merlyn's general suckage). Merlyn's plan to get the LOA off his back? Brainwashing Thea to kill Sara. Oliver going along with Merlyn's plan? Brainwashed Thea killed Sara. Oliver fighting Ra's Al Ghul??? Brainwashed Thea killed Sara. Oliver getting murdered by Ra's Al Ghul? Brainwashed Thea killed Sara. Half of Oliver/Felicity's arguments? Brainwashed Thea killed Sara. Oliver getting trained by Merlyn to fight Ra's Al Ghul? Brainwashed Thea killed Sara.

 

Most of my trouble with 2B (outside of it sucking horribly) was that the show kept pushing that all this horrible crap was happening because Oliver killed Shado and expected everyone to ignore that IVO actually killed Shado (not that Slade/Oliver/Sara/Ivo(???)/etc. actually cared). Now the show's pulling the same bullshit with MY BABY THEA'S ARC (with added Papa Dearest bullcrap) and using her to prop up a redemption arc for MALCOLM FREAKING MERLYN. Bite me, Arrow.

 

What a cute couple, I should check out that show. NEVER falling for that crap again! Hopefully, this is my last Arrow rant. Back to tumblr gifsets for me.

[calliope1975]

The only silver lining to the Felicity hate is I know it won't affect the writing since they've ignored 2.5 years of criticism for every other part of the show. 

 

I'm bitter because I was planning on going to SA's even in Austin this summer (mostly to hang with my BFF and visit where I went to college) but I don't even know if I could meet him when I have little to no respect for the show now. 

[TyranAmiros]

I'm barely watching this show these days, but I just have to say that Ra's is the worst villain on this show, because he's not a villain. What has he actually done, on Arrow, to show himself a villain? He's not even a good antagonist! So far, all we've seen of him is some disagreement with Nyssa over Sara--for reasons not specifically given--and wanting to avenge the death of one of his own (Sara this season). I don't understand what makes him so bad. And I don't want it to be "because Batman" because I need to see something on this show, not an allusion to another medium. Outside of trying to kill Oliver (because Oliver took the blame for Sara's death), what has Ra's done that's so bad in this universe?

I actually quite liked the Oliver-Ra's interaction in 309, and think that their shared fatalism really worked in their scenes together. But, frankly, I know "League of Assassins" comes from the comics, but it sounds like a something out of an 1980s swords-and-sorcery fantasy. I with in "realistic" Arrow they had called them something else (and "League of Assassins," like "Suicide Squad," turned out to be a nickname).

[blixie]

You know Guggenheim if you really expect me to hang with this season of 151 car pile up of STUPID, the least you could do is give me ABS and SALLY. I was much better of when I only occasionally watched for that.

[KirkB]

I'm barely watching this show these days, but I just have to say that Ra's is the worst villain on this show, because he's not a villain. What has he actually done, on Arrow, to show himself a villain? He's not even a good antagonist! So far, all we've seen of him is some disagreement with Nyssa over Sara--for reasons not specifically given--and wanting to avenge the death of one of his own (Sara this season). I don't understand what makes him so bad. And I don't want it to be "because Batman" because I need to see something on this show, not an allusion to another medium. Outside of trying to kill Oliver (because Oliver took the blame for Sara's death), what has Ra's done that's so bad in this universe

 

 

This is a good point actually. Plenty of people watching this show have never read a comic book in their life and the only thing they might know about Ra's al Ghul is from Batman Begins. Which has no bearing on the show itself, except in all the homaging the EPs are doing. So we have only what little has been shown and what we have been told about how bad Ra's is. He casually outfought a bunch of ninjas and fairly easily defeated Oliver. He's obviously a good fighter. Malcolm is terrified of him, and even Oliver has heard scary things but we haven't seen him DO anything and know nothing about his history. 

[jay741982]

Having just read through a slew of "Uprising" reviews, my heart hurts.  If the EPs' intent is to destroy the Felicity character and the Olicity relationship, then they've made a 'great' start.

Not saying they are but why would you be so stupid to try to Destroy two of the only reasons to tune in to this show.

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

I don't remember this type of criticism when Oliver fucking flounced off to the island and was quite whiny himself about his manpain.

 

Clearly Oliver's pain is different because it comes with a penis. :)  

 

Every character on this show bitches and whines, but it only seems to be the women who get the hate for it.   I'll just be putting opinions of the rabid haters in my "I have zero fucks to give" box to be opened only after hell freezes over or Rupert Murdoch crawls back into the slime from whence he came.

[silversauce]

So by the end of 'The Uprising' I'm left feeling like I don't care what happens with Olicity. Which in turn makes me angry because Olicity was everything in season 1/2 and the flash crossover episodes. Everything in season 3 just feels so forced and overblown - manufacturing drama, will they won't they, angst angst angst when it makes no sense, ruining the awkward yet affectionate dynamic between the two, destroying Felicity as the light and the supporter and the one who stands by the Arrow because she TRUSTS HIM and BELIEVES IN HIM (even if he does make some mistakes). The magic has been utterly ruined, at least for now.

 

Also I don't like the idea of Malcom being redeemed. He was and is horrible and should have died in Season 1.

Edited February 6, 2015 by silversauce

[calliope1975]

So by the end of 'The Uprising' I'm left feeling like I don't care what happens with Olicity. Which in turn makes me angry because Olicity was everything in season 1/2 and the flash crossover episodes. Everything in season 3 just feels so forced and overblown - manufacturing drama, will they won't they, angst angst angst when it makes no sense, ruining the awkward yet affectionate dynamic between the two, destroying Felicity as the light and the supporter and the one who stands by the Arrow because she TRUSTS HIM and BELIEVES IN HIM (even if he does make some mistakes). The magic has been utterly ruined, at least for now.

 

I'm not quite ready to turn my shipper card in yet, but I am beginning to realize that the Olicity in my head and in fanfic is better than what the show is giving me. I also think SA and EBR have something special that they brought to scenes that can't be scripted and the isolation with Ray is hurting that dynamic. The show can regain that (the crossover proves that) but if TIIC are so hell bent on punishing their characters, I fear we're never going to get a happy Oliver. And I do truly believe that Felicity and Oliver (once all the punishments are over) would make each other happy.

 

I also fear that I won't be able to put up with all the crap to get to that point. 

[jay741982]

I'm not quite ready to turn my shipper card in yet, but I am beginning to realize that the Olicity in my head and in fanfic is better than what the show is giving me. I also think SA and EBR have something special that they brought to scenes that can't be scripted and the isolation with Ray is hurting that dynamic. The show can regain that (the crossover proves that) but if TIIC are so hell bent on punishing their characters, I fear we're never going to get a happy Oliver. And I do truly believe that Felicity and Oliver (once all the punishments are over) would make each other happy.

 

I also fear that I won't be able to put up with all the crap to get to that point.

Yeah I don't get why these showruners can't give us some happiness while still having a dark tone for the show. I love Olicity and I can't see why they can't be happy. MG even said "they would be blissfully happy if they get through their issues which enraged me cause he's a big reason why! Dyla is happy why can't Olicity be? The Fan Fiction writers come up with ways to have Olicity be happy why can't these professionals?

[statsgirl]

I think it's a major mistake not to give us any happiness, and especially not to give Oliver and Felicity 2 seconds of happiness before they get torn apart.  It's a true thing that you can bear the crises better if you have some happy moments to remember.  (That is why twice as many marriages who never had honeymoons break up than those who did.  You need a reason to remember why you bought a ticket for this boat when the storm hits.)

 

Why is Malcolm training Oliver going to help? Malcolm was scared shitless of Ra's in season 2, which suggests he has no chance of beating him anyway. One guy who can't beat someone training another guy who can't beat someone to... not beat someone.

Seriously, it makes no sense.  And the idea that only the student can defeat the master makes even less.

 

Oliver can go fuck himself now.  "Oh, I know you mindfucked my sister into killing Sara but could you please train me to fight, Malcolm?"  I was speechless with that bullshit.  Sara died for nothing since apparently all's forgiven.  I almost wish now that Ollie had died for real cause this guy isn't the Ollie I loved at all. 

 

I hate what they're doing to Oliver. On the other hand, I'm happy that they're not doing it to Diggle and especially not to Felicity. Oliver can take the hit better.

 

Amanda Waller: Mommy issues.  Hear me out!  I still believe that this Amanda is actually the daughter of a more successful Amanda Waller (played by CCH Pounder, of course), and she always lived under her shadow.  She inherited ARGUS from her, so she has to prove her worth!  Sometimes, that requires being willing to bomb a city or form a squad consisting of former criminals and killers.

I want to see this so bad. Bring on Mommy Amanda to smack some sense into her.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm bitter that we're being told to trust the writers.  SA said that on Campea's show and I've seen people online saying this.  I watched Lost and Battlestar Galactica, and I trusted those writers.  That ended...badly.  I trusted the Arrow writers through the mess that was season 2B.  I believed MG when he said that they were aware of their problems, knew what people liked, and they were going to fix things this season.  I actually believe him when he says that he knows what people like and what they want to see.  Remember the interview MG gave recently where he talked about people's love of the Team Arrow "troika"?  Yeah, the one where he basically said, "I know people love the trio, but we've moved beyond that now."  Essentially, it doesn't matter what I want since I'm apparently going to get what I "need."  How can I trust these writers when so much of what I'm being given are things that I don't want and the reasoning seems to be "We thought it would look cool" or "It was dramatic!"    

[Genki]

They lost my trust when they killed Sara, because that was when I knew they were going in a direction that would be really forced and inorganic.

Also I hate the fact the 2B was a long arc of dumb decisions and character propping to only get enjoyable in the last 2 episodes, at least last season there was 2A to enjoy first. This season...it 2B x 2 (albeit with brief moments of fun).

[Menrva]

I really can't blame Felicity for her words and actions. It's just been too much. She's been powerless to stop or change most of the awful things that have happened and that's a terrible feeling. And how does one process the seeming death of a secret vigilante who declares his love, right before going off to battle the most dangerous man on earth, who leads a group of deadly assassins, oh, and also is possibly hundreds of years old? The sheer madness of the situation would make anyone weep. So I really don't have a problem with Felicity's reaction. And for those who would chastise Felicity for being emotional and making emotionally charged decisions, I really think there's a double standard being applied here. Choosing to become a vigilante to save your home is pretty damn emotional.

 

But to come back to the writers - some of this dialogue is painful. It's one thing to write the words. On paper, they might look fine. But have they actually said them out loud? Because then we wouldn't get clunkers like "I don't want to be a woman you love".

 

And Ted's words to Laurel about her being a better fighter than a liar; I beg to disagree. Laurel is an exemplary liar. She's lying to her father about Sara's death. She's lying to herself about why she's decided to become a vigilante (she wants to be like the cool kids! She even wants scars so she look tough and continue to replace Sara as the only Black Canary), she lied about her substance abuse, she blackmailed her boss. Laurel lies all the fucking time.

 

She just enrages me. Her snotty line to Felicity "Because I'm paying attention!" Paying attention to what? Getting her buckles buckled? Making sure her lipstick and nail polish match? I just can't with her.

 

I really see no reason to trust the writers and MG. Please, not all fans are idiots and the writers clearly are not objective about Arrow. Moving past something that fans love doesn't necessarily lead to better stories; maybe we loved it because it was good and it worked. For me, there are few things more satisfying than watching characters click and be damn good at their jobs. When you see the good guys finally be one or two steps ahead of the bad guys for once and win the day. Because that happens so rarely these days. It’s all about angst and pulling oneself of of the muck. Which isn't bad, unless that's all there is. There has to be some payoff and it is sorely lacking this season.

 

Sorry this was so long.

[dtissagirl]

I distrust tv writers in general so hard, I don't trust FANS who trust showrunners. In the wise words of Captain America, son, just don't.

[Shanna]

They lost my trust when they killed Sara, because that was when I knew they were going in a direction that would be really forced and inorganic.).

Yes. It's not just that they killed Sara, but everything about that has been idiot plot central. None of it makes sense, people reactions don't make sense or feel organic. This season is a mess.

If they had to kill off Sara they could have made it a mystery that was not actually stupid. She could have died elsewhere and forced them to investigate. It could have been Ra's fault, or Ra's could have actually been responsible which at least would have been a damn good reason for Oliver to fight him. But since literally everything is Malcolm's fault the whole damn season is nonsensical.

Moving past something that fans love doesn't necessarily lead to better stories; maybe we loved it because it was good and it worked.

This. So much this. If everybody hates your story maybe it sucks. If everybody like it, maybe it's actually good. I don't believe that making everyone an idiot is good writing either. Edited February 6, 2015 by Shanna

[statsgirl]

 But since literally everything is Malcolm's fault the whole damn season is nonsensical.

Making it even more stupid that now they appear to be trying to rehabilitate him.

 

 

And Ted's words to Laurel about her being a better fighter than a liar; I beg to disagree.

He had to say that. Because she's such an awful fighter.  It's the 'Laurel is wonderful' arc.

[Sakura12]

I'm bitter because this was another show I loved that the Showrunner decided to go with whatever sounds cool or causes drama and make an episode around that instead of thinking of a story first. So then we get half-assed lazy storytelling just to get the cool stuff or the drama. 

 

Not to mention the terrible treatment of female characters, they are either victims or love interests. It's the actresses that make the character popular. I should be like my sister, she will only watch shows with strong, well written and/or acted female characters. Because of that she doesn't watch much tv. 

[BumpSetSpike]

I'm not quite ready to turn my shipper card in yet

 

I think as a result of this episode I have turned in my "shipper card" for Olicity.   The actors are phenomenal with what mess they are given, but I think that they need to just chill on the romance for the rest of the season until Oliver can regain what humanity he has lost when he was "humbly" destroyed by Ras.  

 

I understand Felicity's reaction to his comments, and I am not one to 'hate' the character for doing that because it was actually 'in character' although I think she was unfair in what she said (see my comments in the relationship thread).  The characters are in different places in terms of emotional health, and this latest incident has pushed Oliver back SO many steps in terms of being able to be in a relationship.

 

Less focus on needing the "romance" of Olicity, more focus on Felicity helping Oliver regain his humanity as a 'friend' - the romance can come later.

Edited February 6, 2015 by BumpSetSpike

[shadow2008]

Absolutely. They wouldn't even use "bisexual." It was absolutely a pat on the back moment without doing any follow up. It could have been great if Sara was alive to have flashbacks to how their romantic relationship began, but TIIC opted to throw Sara out with the trash. As much as I'll miss her (and I'll always consider her the Black Canary of Arrowverse) I hope Caity Lotz never returns after this next episode. They don't deserve her.

 

See, this is why I was (foolishly) hoping that when Nyssa came to Sara's aid at the end of last season, she would do so against Ra's orders. If she had done that, we could have gotten a storyline where Nyssa has to go on the run from her own father. Sara could have went with her because she would have been the reason why Nyssa is in that predicament in the first place. This would have been an excellent opportunity for the characters to reconnect in the present (while being the BAMF's we know them to be) and also given the writers a chance to organically explore some of their shared backstory in a specific flashback episode. Unfortunately, this was not meant to be.

 

What also really gets to me right now is that when Sara was killed off, one of the producers said that they still have Nyssa to film the "badass female" quota and that we would see more of her character in the wake of Sara's death. And in how many episodes has Nyssa been so far? 2? That isn't really much of an improvement compared to last year considering that Nyssa didn't even exist in the Arrow verse until 2x13.

Edited February 7, 2015 by shadow2008

[loki567]

It really does bug me the lengths they've gone to turn John Barrowman into a series regular while almost literally tossing Caity Lotz into the trash. She would have fit so much more organically into a season about conflict between Team Arrow and the LoA. They've basically had to destroy the entire fabric of the show to get the characters in a place where they could accept Malcolm as an ally and it's annoying as fuck. Who asked for him as a regular? I don't care how charming Barrowman is in real life. 

 

And even though I wouldn't have wanted to lose her, I think this season might have worked better with Nyssa dying, instead of Sara. 

[Chaser]

I keep trying to type up a post about everything I'm bitter about this season. And I get tired half way thru. Bullet point version: 

 

The plot holes

The uneven stop and start story telling

The lack of Felicity and Diggle friendship

The lack of any logic applied to Laurel's arc

The lying to Thea

Malcolm's 'redemption'

Oliver's regressing by teaming with Malcolm before trying to Find Another Way i.e. the lesson of S2 (which was prompted by the murder of Tommy by Malcolm)

Sara's death

Ray's botched entrance

Using Felicity (a regular) to prop Ray (a guest star)

Lying to Lance 

Throwing characters under the bus for plot

Ra's is a huge disappointment

The Fandom

 

I don't look forward to Arrow anymore. Now I read spoilers to see if its an episode I would even want to watch. I literally dread episodes now.

Edited February 7, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Chaser]

I forgot to mention the very distinct lack of FUN. Remember when Arrow was Fun? 

[Password]

I haven't watched the past 2 episodes though I'd like to watch ep 12. Is it even worth my time?

I thoroughly enjoyed the Olicity ending.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I keep trying to type up a post about everything I'm bitter about this season. And I get tired half way thru. Bullet point version: 

(snip)

The Fandom

 

This is probably different than what you mean by "the fandom," but I've noticed lately that instead of snarking on the show, people are snarking at each other!  It was so much more fun when the bitterness was aimed at the ridiculous of the show, but I think that it's not even enjoyable to mock that anymore.   

[looptab]

I haven't watched the past 2 episodes though I'd like to watch ep 12. Is it even worth my time?

I thoroughly enjoyed the Olicity ending.

I think you should watch it:) The scenes with Oliver and Tatsu are nice, and with the discussion on whether to accept Malcolm's help or not, Sin, the Lance/Roy combo, it's worth it. Just ignore the weird timeline :)

[tv echo]

I have to laugh (somewhat bitterly) when people complain about Olicity turning Arrow into too much of an angsty soap opera.  Let's think back to season 1, shall we?

 

The hero cheats on his girlfriend by sleeping with her sister, who he then takes on a boat trip.  He and the sister are both presumed dead.  He returns from the dead to find his girlfriend is now sleeping with his best friend.  Love triangle ensues.  He ends up sleeping with his ex-girlfriend again, which is witnessed by his best friend.  His best friend is then killed in an earthquake trying to save the ex-girlfriend.  This best friend, incidentally, is the crush object of the hero's little sister - who turns out to be that best friend's half-sister.

Edited February 11, 2015 by tv echo

[Luckylyn]

I'm really bitter about the lack of urgency to inform Thea she was mind raped by Malcolm and help her protect herself.

[Guest]

Here's a list of everything I'm bitter about: *rolls out paper until it hits the floor*

 

Too much focus on Insta-heroes undermining OLIVER'S STORY. There's just too many masks on this show now that I feel like they should just start handing them out whenever people enter Starling City. "You want to be a hero? Here, have a mask and go get some boxing lessons and you're already there! You don't need to go through 5 plus years of hell!"

 

MG and co loving their shiny new toys like the ATOM have made them lose focus on the basics and what originally made this show so great. I didn't realize this show was called ARROW: the place where spin-offs happen.

 

Ray Palmer/Raylicity. I was fine when I first heard about Felicity having a potential love interest but this guy is THE WORST. His consistently questionable behavior and lack of any discernible characteristics makes him like white noise to me. They've even narratively likened him to Oliver and the implications of that alone are enough to gross me out where Felicity is involved. We couldn't have Felicity be with someone normal and different? Pretty much all I'm seeing from this relationship is Felicity acting like prop duty instead of having a storyline that is about her. It takes a village, I guess.

 

Diggle getting sidelined. He's a former special ops soldier, the most trained out of all of them, but he's stuck in the foundry while they try to make Laurel happen. Madness.

 

Quentin getting sidelined. The only times I remember that Quentin even exists is when we're reminded that he's been lied to about his daughter's death for MONTHS. Once again, this is because they're trying to make Laurel happen. They're just pigeon-holing him because plot tells them to. 

 

Dumb, predictable storylines. When I first started watching this show, I genuinely found some of the twists and story directions interesting and unpredictable. Going back to s1 I remember thinking Walter would turn out to be a bit questionable when it actually ended up being Moira. I loved that. Now, even without spoilers, we've pretty much seen exactly where this show is going. 

 

Olicity. I was so excited for these two and I foolishly allowed myself to get more invested in them than perhaps I should. But clearly the EP's can't write romance. They've pretty much removed what made me love them in the first place and their moments are now rife with tension and I'm not expecting that to change. I'm all for a slow burn but the whole point of that is we're still able to see the love and friendship between them along the way. It's all much too bitter for me at the moment. And now I don't think Olicity will happen at all, so I feel even more duped for believing the season would come full circle. LIES! Why did they even bother? They could have kept things at the status quo. I really don't understand the logic here.

 

Laurel. They had the opportunity to convince me about Laurel this season. I was indifferent to her before s3 started but killing Sara and writing other characters OOC just to make her fit on the team has only made me resent her. I won't say anymore on the subject but yeah. MUCH BITTER.

 

Sara's death. I liked Sara. I thought she had a heartbreaking and convincing backstory perfect for BC but that was all for nothing because her name is not Dinah Laurel Lance. Every time we see Sara I'm just reminded how much better she was. It doesn't help that Laurel is SIngle White Female-ing her own sister. It's all too creepy for me to digest. 

 

Ra's al Ghul. That guy is the most feared man in the world? Really, him? No. I don't believe it. Slade had more screen presence than him. 

 

Mind-raping Thea and removing all of her agency. I'm sick of this show's treatment of women and all the men deciding what is best for them. Even now Oliver is like 'Thea's not ready to know my secret.' Um, shut up grumpy face! Let her decide for herself. 

 

Trying to redeem Malcolm. Dedicating an episode of flashbacks to Malcolm Merlyn was a waste of everyone's time because that dude is a mass murderer with no remorse. He can't be redeemed. He's a monster. And the more this show pushes for redemption, the more stupid it makes Oliver look. I cannot believe he's even considering working with that man after everything he's done. You're supposed to want to root for the hero (and I really have been this season, more than ever) but 312 pretty much ruined all of that with his dumb choices. 

Edited February 11, 2015 by Guest

[Luckylyn]

Too much focus on Insta-heroes undermining OLIVER'S STORY. There's just too many masks on this show now that I feel like they should just start handing them out whenever people enter Starling City. "You want to be a hero? Here, have a mask and go get some boxing lessons and you're already there! You don't need to go through 5 plus years of hell!"

 

MG and co loving their shiny new toys like the ATOM have made them lose focus on the basics and what originally made this show so great. I didn't realize this show was called ARROW: the place where spin-offs happen.

This is a huge problem for me.   The show has turned into a jumping off point for other heroes, and Oliver's story is getting lost.  Characters like Felicity and Diggle are getting written poorly in order to twist things to support other characters.   Characters like Thea and Sara are just plot points and their potential as characters squandered.  The writers are so focused on the new shiny heroes they want to promote that character development has been lost in favor of plot driven stories.

 

Ray had potential, but he's not been written well because the writers are more focused on the outcome of him becoming Atom and using him to block Olicity than they are on developing him as a person.  Laurel is another character that suffers from that sort of writing.  They are writing to have big moments without making the effort to build up to those moments in a way that makes the most sense for the characters.

 

Killing Sara is a prime example of a lack of creativity and plot being a priority over organic storytelling.  I'm so bitter because killing Sara was the laziest choice they could make.

[Guest]

This is a huge problem for me.   The show has turned into a jumping off point for other heroes, and Oliver's story is getting lost.  Characters like Felicity and Diggle are getting written poorly in order to twist things to support other characters.   Characters like Thea and Sara are just plot points and their potential as characters squandered.  The writers are so focused on the new shiny heroes they want to promote that character development has been lost in favor of plot driven stories.

 

Ray had potential, but he's not been written well because the writers are more focused on the outcome of him becoming Atom and using him to block Olicity than they are on developing him as a person.  Laurel is another character that suffers from that sort of writing.  They are writing to have big moments without making the effort to build up to those moments in a way that makes the most sense for the characters.

 

Killing Sara is a prime example of a lack of creativity and plot being a priority over organic storytelling.  I'm so bitter because killing Sara was the laziest choice they could make.

 

Exactly.

 

I watch this show for Oliver and his journey. I'm fine with shaking things up and exploring new dynamics but they shouldn't remove what was working and loved in the first place. 

 

For me, the Original Team Arrow was an absolute highlight. I loved them before I loved Olicity. Even if Olicity never happened, I would be fine with that if I still saw that brilliant trio dynamic on my screen. Now it's non-existent and I'm sitting here wondering why I even bother tuning in when nothing I enjoyed is on screen anymore. And as I said, they want to shake things up? Fine. But do it in a way that ensures I still have something I love. It's all about balance. They totally screwed up because the characters I'm seeing right now are not the ones I fell in love with and that's all because of plot.

 

Ray is a big issue with me. I've made no secret of how much I hate him but his problems are all writing based. And if a character needs constant propping from someone else and he never gets the chance to stand on his own, he's not a good character to start with. Show me a scene where Ray is without Felicity and then we'll talk. Until then, I'm not interested. He's taking away valuable screen time from characters I already love.

 

They're pretty much creatively bankrupt at this point. Sara's death was so lazy. If they had to kill someone, they should have killed Quentin (they hardly use him this season anyway) in a senseless attack in the Glades or something, and Laurel can't get justice through the courts so she teams up with her sister and Sara trains her and ta da! Two women empowering each other. The show could have benefited from that. This mess they have instead is just creepy and unbelievable and frankly, unwatchable. I've no interest in Laurel's storyline because they've shit all over another character to make it happen.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Guest

[Sakura12]

I guess Sara wasn't far enough down in the trash, so they had to really stomp on her to shove her down there. 

 

I don't know if they thought this would get more fans for Laurel, even the people who like Laurel are like the WTF! with the Sara trashing. It was unnecessary and a terrible thing to do a character. I do hope Caity tells them no if they ask her to come back for the big plan for her. I shutter to think what else they can do to ruin her.

 

And Sara doesn't have light? Sin was Sara's light, fighting for women was Sara's light. Sara still had light despite all the horrible things she went through. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by Sakura12

[Chaser]

This show sucks

I'm going to admit something that probably makes me a bad person, but I hope Olicity is endgame so KC doesn't 'win.'

[wonderwall]

I sorta wish I never discovered Arrow until it was fully over so I could skip this season. Honestly this is Season 9 scrubs and Season 7 Gilmore Girls bad. 

[catrox14]

I am so upset, y'all.  I really am. 

 

I don't blame Caity Lotz for never coming back to Arrow.  Total character assassination AFTER the fact because these fuckers are trying to make it seem like Sara was not really a hero at all...just so Laurel can be a hero because she has a light inside her that apparently only Felicity can see? 

 

  And Oliver is getting run out of his own show.  At this point, I hope Amell tells them to stuff it. Gods I am so heartbroken.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I sorta wish I never discovered Arrow until it was fully over so I could skip this season. Honestly this is Season 9 scrubs and Season 7 Gilmore Girls bad. 

 

The scary thing is that I see people elsewhere loving the episode, giving it a 10 out of 10, calling it the best episode of the season.  I think that these people are the ones that MG is getting his feedback from.

[Chaser]

The scary thing is that I see people elsewhere loving the episode, giving it a 10 out of 10, calling it the best episode of the season.  I think that these people are the ones that MG is getting his feedback from.

And that right there is why I went off all social media. This forum is the only thing I look at Arrow related.

And I feel so much better for it.

[NumberCruncher]

Yet another episode I'm relieved I didn't bother watching. I've been holding out until the SS episode since that was the first one that actually looked the least bit interesting, but given the spoilers for that episode, I'm doubting I'll even watch that one. Oh Arrow, what happened to you? You went from must-see to avoid-at-all-cost TV in less than 10 episodes.