Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[catrox14]

Sakura12 Everyone has a Tatiana Maslany obsession, she's the epitome of perfection :D

I long for the day that I can have Tatiana and Jensen work together. I would probably die.  You could throw in John Barrowman for fun too.

[Zalyn]

 

Seriously, whoever said that is just not in touch with reality. There is almost nothing about Laurel Lance that I can relate to. I'm not blaming Katie Cassidy for that entirely, because the awful writing for her character is a large reason that she's so bafflingly unlikeable, but the end result is the same.

From the context of the post, it looks like the author is attributing that quote to KC on a panel.

 

I long for the day that I can have Tatiana and Jensen work together. I would probably die.  You could throw in John Barrowman for fun too.

That is just too much awesome; the cameras would explode.

[ohjoy]

I long for the day that I can have Tatiana and Jensen work together. I would probably die.

So would I. Which is fine, because I'm pretty sure the that entire western hemisphere would implode, taking most of the internet with it. Good times.

[dtissagirl]

Longtime lurker, first time poster here.

 

I have the same problem SilverLake0315 mentioned watching the Laurel scenes -- I'm taken out of the narrative, and start noticing Katie Cassidy's acting choices instead. And sure, the writing for the character has been abysmal, especially in S2, but I blame the actress as much as the writers. It's like KC infused Laurel with an impenetrable force field, and I have a really hard time feeling any empathy towards the character. Even during the pill popping/drunk mess it felt like she didn't show any vulnerability. So while rationally I could see that her going through such trials might deserve my sympathies and my ability to relate to her, in reality, because of the complete lack of emotional resonance, I ended up resenting the show -- and again with the taken out of the narrative thing -- for giving so much story and screen time to a character that is impossible to relate to.

[Morrigan2575]

Ok, I'm confused about that link. Did Katie Cassidy say the whole "Laurel is the heart of the show/most relateable character"? Or did a fan say this? It's so hard to imagine that KC could be this delusional, but maybe she is? I'm willing to give this the benefit of the doubt, until I see other sources from the comic con. I mean, that's seriously delusional.

Katie Cassidy said that.

[icandigit]

So are the directors helpless in all this?  I was watching one of the episodes where Laurel was going after the hood and those acting choices were insane. I'm not the first person on this site to ask about the directors. Shouldn't they be able to do something. I think if they would play to KC's strengths the show would be better.

[Morrigan2575]

So are the directors helpless in all this? I was watching one of the episodes where Laurel was going after the hood and those acting choices were insane. I'm not the first person on this site to ask about the directors. Shouldn't they be able to do something. I think if they would play to KC's strengths the show would be better.

They have a tight shooting schedule so they have limited options, for all we know the scenes that we've seen are her best takes. Directors can't make an actor act better and they can't re-write scripts to play to an actors ability.

If there's directing or writing issues in an entire episode then by all means chalk it up to the writer, director, etc but if everything else is good or even praise worthy then the failure is obvious (IMO). That's like when people blame the writing and all I can think is, everyone in the writing room somehow sucks at writing Laurel?

[Zalyn]

They have a tight shooting schedule so they have limited options, for all we know the scenes that we've seen are her best takes. Directors can't make an actor act better and they can't re-write scripts to play to an actors ability.

If there's directing or writing issues in an entire episode then by all means chalk it up to the writer, director, etc but if everything else is good or even praise worthy then the failure is obvious (IMO). That's like when people blame the writing and all I can think is, everyone in the writing room somehow sucks at writing Laurel?

At least they sucked at "I know you like I know my own name."  I put that all on the writers.  Maybe they don't like the character either.

[ohjoy]

Zalyn beat me to the punch, but yeah, I think it's a distinct possibility that everyone in the writing room somehow sucks at writing Laurel. That wasn't the first time they'd written her has being self-assured that she knows Oliver better than anybody. And really, the character as written has been a mess from Day 1. You don't create a character whose boyfriend cheated on her with her sister and subsequently got them both killed, and then when said boyfriend turns up alive have that character entertain even the faintest idea of hooking up with him again. At all. Ever. And then have that same character react to finding her sister alive by telling her to get out of her house. That is the worst "blame the other woman, but not the man" reaction, and to have against your own flesh and blood -- it leads me to believe that the writers have no concept of Laurel apart from with Oliver, so there's no way the character can exist or relate to anyone else apart from her relationship with Oliver either.

[Password]

You don't create a character whose boyfriend cheated on her with her sister and subsequently got them both killed, and then when said boyfriend turns up alive have that character entertain even the faintest idea of hooking up with him again. At all. Ever.

 

The thing is the first time they met she was hostile and very cold. Then for some unknown reason she's changed her attitude and says she's there for him. It's like the writers have this idea in their mind that Laurel is unstable when it comes to Oliver Queen. That's not love, that is doormat syndrome.

[SilverLake0315]

That's like when people blame the writing and all I can think is, everyone in the writing room somehow sucks at writing Laurel?

 

I agree and will add "and have no problem writing for every other character"?

 

I think there's plenty of blame to go around, though.  It's obvious to me that whoever writes for the character has no idea what to do with her, but KC also has no clue what to do with anything she is given (there have been a few good things and she's dropped the ball every time).

[Password]

I used to think KC was the problem because it feels too much like she's acting. But lately I've come to blame the writers more (look at "I know you in your bones"). I really would love to see some of the deleted scenes because maybe THEY'RE where all of Laurel's crunch lies. I can't find any other excuse for people toting Laurel and her super awesome amazingness, and by people I mean the EPs. It makes no sense. I stand by giving KC something funny. She could pull it off. Instead we're left with a character who is serious, and boring and a mess. Just no.

[Sakura12]

So while rationally I could see that her going through such trials might deserve my sympathies and my ability to relate to her, in reality, because of the complete lack of emotional resonance, I ended up resenting the show -- and again with the taken out of the narrative thing -- for giving so much story and screen time to a character that is impossible to relate to.

This is exactly how I feel. I get that what Laurel went through is horrible in it's own right and is something people struggle with. But Cassidy failed to show me anything that would make me feel anything. All I saw was an actress pretending to have a pretend drinking problem. How would I have sympathy for that? It's the actors job to make me feel their characters struggle, understand their characters pain.

 

Putting a wine glass in front of an actor does make me feel they have drinking problem. 

 

Another show I watch had a character have a sudden drug problem too but they actually showed the effects of the problem. She looked like shit, looked like she got dressed in the dark, her hair was a mess, she was increasingly paranoid and frantic, she'd zone out while talking to people. She even blacked out for an entire episode. Even though her rehab stint was laughably short, when she came back she still looked like shit for an episode or two showing that rehab isn't a magical fix. The difference was also that character was one of my favorites before that so I already empathized with her. 

 

Which is another problem with Laurel, for me if I don't care about the character, I'm not going to care what happens to them. They can have every bad thing happen to Laurel in one episode and I still wouldn't care because I just don't like her or feel anything for her. 

Edited May 28, 2014 by Sakura12

[calliope1975]

Which is another problem with Laurel, for me if I don't care about the character, I'm not going to care what happens to them. They can have every bad thing happen to Laurel in one episode and I still wouldn't care because I just don't like her or feel anything for her.

 

 

That's where I'm at as well. I tried for a season and a half to care about Laurel but eventually gave up. As unfair as it may be to the show, I don't think there's anything they could do to make me care at this point. I suppose it's not completely hopeless. I was not a fan of Jen's on Dawson's Creek, but when she became a cheerleader and got with Michael Pitt, I suddenly began liking her, and I think that was around Season 3. But realistically, I'm not holding out hope that I'm suddenly going to think Laurel's awesome.

[Morrigan2575]

I used to think KC was the problem because it feels too much like she's acting. But lately I've come to blame the writers more (look at "I know you in your bones"). I really would love to see some of the deleted scenes because maybe THEY'RE where all of Laurel's crunch lies. I can't find any other excuse for people toting Laurel and her super awesome amazingness, and by people I mean the EPs. It makes no sense. I stand by giving KC something funny. She could pull it off. Instead we're left with a character who is serious, and boring and a mess. Just no.

Which writers? All of them? The last 8 episodes were written by 8 different writing partners, including a few DC comic writers like Geoff Johns and even BQM (Smallville) writer.

Now, I can buy one writer having an issue, Tim Minear was vocal about not being able to write for Cordy. There was a Buffy writer who hated Spike so whenever he wrote an episode Spike was totally different then the episode before/after. There's a writer who was on SPN that always ignored canon and wrote Dean as a complete idiot.

So, I can totally buy one writer constantly messing the same character up but I have a hard time buying every writer in that writing room doesn't get/like the character, including the EPs.

BTW I'm not saying it's 100% KCs fault but I can't say it's 100% on the writers, directors, etc.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

Maybe all the writers hate Laurel and only the EP's like her?

That's what it looks like to me, the EP's praise KC/Laurel then the episode airs and it's completely different than anything they said about her. Everything they say they think will make her look good actually makes her look worse. (personality wise not looks wise). I know they look over the scripts and have to approve them but maybe the writers are saying one thing to them about it, knowing that most of the audience will have a different reaction.

 

That's the only thing I can up with as to why the EP interviews keep saying we'll see Jekyll when it comes Laurel but all I see is Hyde. 

[Morrigan2575]

MG co-wrote 1, 3, 7 ,12, 18 & 23

AK co-wrote 1, 4, 8, 19 & 23

Ben Sokolowski co-wrote 2, 6, 15 & 22

Beth Schwartz co-wrote 2, 6, 11, 14 & 20

Keto Shimizu co-wrote 3, 10, 16 & 19

Wendy Mericle co- wrote 4, 11, 14 & 20

Jake Coburn co-wrote 5, 10, 13, 15 & 22

Drew Z. Greenberg co-wrote 5, 7, 12 & 18

Geoff Johns co-wrote 8 & 9

Brian Q Miller co-wrote 16

Holly Harold wrote 21

Mark Bemesderfer & A.C. Bradley co-wrote 17.

So let's see if we can find a pattern, anything stand out?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arrow_episodes

Edited May 28, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[quarks]

it leads me to believe that the writers have no concept of Laurel apart from with Oliver, so there's no way the character can exist or relate to anyone else apart from her relationship with Oliver either.

 

 

RandomMe, I don't disagree with this, but what I find interesting is having just watched the pilot, I can see clear signs that the show didn't have to go this way. After all, in the pilot, both Thea and Laurel have friends that don't know and aren't involved with Oliver. (Technically, Moira does as well, but since all of her friends end up being connected to the Undertaking and thus the main plot, I'm not counting her.) Thea has the friends who are selling her drugs; Laurel has her coworkers and Joanna.  Eventually, we see that Diggle has his sister in law and later his ex-wife. The only major characters that don't have outside friends are Quentin (his cop partner is also chasing the Arrow) and Tommy (who is serving as Oliver's friend, so extra friends would be a distraction.)

 

Eventually, all of these extra people vanished - and the focus went back to Oliver. (Diggle did get an ex-wife, but since she's tied to Argus which is tied to Oliver's storyline, she's functionally similar to Moira's friends.) The new major characters brought in - Malcolm Merlyn, Felicity, Shado, Slade, Sara, Roy, Blood, Isabel, Amanda Waller, Dinah Lance, Nyssa - were almost all explicitly tied to Oliver. The exceptions are Deadshot, who was later pulled into Oliver's storyline despite being largely a Diggle antagonist; Nyssa, ditto as an originally Sara antagonist; Sin, who was very carefully tied to both Roy and Sara to give her a reason to interact with more of the cast; Dinah Lance, who is tied to Quentin, Laurel and Sara; and very arguably Blood, who at least started with a non-Oliver related agenda.  This ended up coming in for some criticism - especially since the result was that we've barely seen Felicity doing anything that wasn't related to Oliver, and Slade's motivations ended up being Oliver-focused, rather than something a bit grander/more personal like other villains, but it has served to streamline the story.  As we've also seen, when the story stops focusing on Oliver, people complain.

 

Unfortunately, what got left out was Laurel - because removing Joanna and all the extras working for CRNI meant removing Laurel's independent storyline, so, as you noted, Laurel really doesn't have a concept apart from Oliver - either as the damsel he needs to rescue, the love interest, or the old friend. And that's an issue when repeated damseling, a huge issue with Laurel, makes the character look useless on screen unless it doesn't happen that frequently (Thea, arguably, since she was only kidnapped twice this season, Lyla, Walter), happens because the character was out on a mission and/or deliberately offering herself up as bait (Felicity, Lyla, both damselled less frequently than Laurel in any case), pushes forward another part of the story (Thea, Felicity) or plays with the basic trope (Felicity).  Exactly one of Laurel's kidnappings this year significantly advanced the plot - the first one, when the kidnapping showed her she was wrong to blame Tommy, which in turn meant that Oliver/Arrow didn't have to worry that she would be continuing to hunt him. 

 

We've covered the Laurel as love interest issues pretty extensively, but is it possible - and I'm just throwing this out here - that one problem is that in the pilot, at least, she was conceived as having an independent storyline, which is why she was given a backstory and initial scene with Oliver that was so antithetical to the very idea of being a love interest at all? Only to have that be abandoned?

 

I ask because I was struck again by how much antagonism was set up between Oliver and Laurel in the pilot: the dead sister, the cheating, the Oliver being a jerk to begin with, the Tommy issue, the lying - it's a lot. No other potential love interest - including Helena, who later targeted his friends, and including Isabel, who later wanted to kill him, and including Sara who was originally introduced with camera angles/dialogue suggesting mistrust - was set up with this much antagonism.  I realize that part of this was to ensure that the main love interests wouldn't get together so quickly, and I realize that originally they did want to play with the "girl loves the mask, hates the guy under it" thing from traditional comics, but this really feels like overkill.

 

Or me overanalyzing things as usual. You decide!

[Password]

I don't think the writers do Laurel any favours, not just with those banger lines but with her overall story arc. The drinking and drug pushing didn't last long enough, and didn't make a big enough impression because you could not see any lasting effects of consequences. She lost her job, then a little while later got it back. She kept blackmailing the DA, but apparently she's a good person who knows Oliver better than anyone. Felicity herself said she hasn't figured him out and she spends all her time with him. The writing makes NO sense for her character. But then a lot of s2 made little sense. The directors and EPs have no excuse when it comes to her direction. If KC is not doing as she's told everyone is to blame. I can't see anything in her dialogue or story arc that would've made me like her or take her seriously.

 

I don't want to blame her, but I couldn't deal with her acting in s1. Most people seem to find flaws with her in s2 but I gave up after her dinner with Helena. I actually think I blanked her out of s2. I can't honestly tell you what she actually did.

[Sakura12]

Well MG and AK didn't write the episodes Laurel wasn't in, which was 6, 10 and 15. 

[Morrigan2575]

Laurel was in 10, she was missing from 6, 8 and 15

Edited May 28, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[tv echo]

Right now, I consider Laurel and maybe Roy the 'dead wood' in the cast that needs to be removed in order to improve the show significantly.  There are a lot of ways this can be done, still satisfy comic book canon, and still have their deaths/departures flow organically from the Green Arrow story as told in the TV series, as well as enhance the other characters' development.  Here's my suggestion:

 

Laurel - In Season 3, Laurel is murdered and Sara returns to Starling City.  In seeking vengeance, Sara turns even darker and becomes the Black Canary, rather than just the Canary.  When she leaves, she adopts the name Dinah in her sister's memory.  Sara/Dinah, as the Black Canary, becomes a recurring character who returns to the show every now and then.  She casually hooks up with Oliver on her return trips a few times, before finally departing for good (perhaps to a Birds of Prey spin-off).  This way, Sara stays the Black Canary and, like in the comic books, Green Arrow and Black Canary hook up and break up several times before finally separating for good.

 

Roy - Thea returns to Starling City with Malcolm, and they fight the Arrow and his red-hoodied sidekick, Roy.  Thea still does not know their true identities.  Roy is killed by Malcolm or maybe even Thea.  The masks come off.  Thea is distraught to find out that she's been fighting her ex-boyfriend and her brother.  She also feels betrayed by Malcolm, who didn't tell her that her brother was the Arrow.  She reconciles with Oliver and becomes his new sidekick, Speedy.

 

There, done.

 

EDITED TO ADD: Further embellishing my Laurel story above - Laurel is murdered on the orders of a mob boss because she is prosecuting the trial of one of his top lieutenants.  Oliver is very tempted to revert to the killer vigilante but Felicity and Diggle urge him to stay on the hero path.  In tracking down the mob boss, Sara kills several underlings and informants.  Oliver gets to the mob boss first, overcomes his desire to execute him on the spot, and takes him to Lance.  Lance also has to overcome the urge to kill his daughter's murderer and arrests him.  While in jail awaiting his lawyer, Sara (as Sara Lance) requests and gets permission to see him.  She identifies herself as Laurel's sister and then kills him through the jail bars.  Sara is arrested for murder but she disappears from policy custody (with Nyssa's help).  Because she is now a fugitive from the law, Sara leaves the city.  Later Oliver receives a message from her that she'll be in touch under her new alias "Dinah Drake" (taking the name Dinah in honor of her sister, Dinah Laurel Lance).

Edited May 30, 2014 by tv echo

[writersblock51]

TV Echo, those work for me though I'm OK if Roy sticks around.  But your plot proposal sounds interesting for him and Thea, so if he were to go, that would be a compelling way to handle it.

[FurryFury]

Wow, there are actually special threads for venting on this forum! What a great idea! We all know this show needs one ;)

It's a bit hard for me to explain in detail what exactly, I feel, is wrong with Arrow, but if I had to name one big reason, it's the lack of a singular vision/direction for the show. I still don't quite understand what story they want to tell exactly because it's clear they can't even plot one season well. Season 2 started so promisingly that by the time hiatus started I was fully engrossed and totally invested. I was even trying to find fanfiction, for God's sake! (sadly, 99.9% of Arrow ff seems to be Olicity, which I'm lukewarm towards) But then, everything went to hell. Characters and whole storylines, like Isobel Rochev, Blood and Roy's Mirakuru transformation, were constantly sidelined and underdeveloped. Diggle was, aside from one episode, reduced to a background prop. We got the awful Laurel's addiction storyline, which was hard to watch and which had zero influence on the overall story (and being subjected to KC's acting was a punishment in itself). We got the Oliver/Sara hook-up, which only served to make Olicity shippers hate Sara and, again, had zero influence on the overall plot, other than to get Sara out of Starling City for an episode or so (which still could work without any romance) and then make her leave again, with a smile on her face despite returning to the people she was willing to kill herself rather than go back to. We got Olicity ship tease without really exploring Felicity's character or the dynamics of this relationship, which made me dislike it, while before, I was perfectly OK with it (I'm still OK with the idea, but not the execution - these writers cannot do romance, period). We never got an explanation for Malcolm's return from the dead, and I really, really wanted one. They've killed off an awesome character of Moira Queen and lost Susanna Thompson, who was always able to handle anything they've thrown at her. Last but not least, they've completely botched Slade's villainous turn, which is a crime, as he was a great character played by one of the strongest actors in the cast.

I'd probably forgive at least some of these mistakes if there was an even remote possibility of the writers realizing and fixing them - but judging by the interviews, they will only be amplified in s3. Prepare for the entrance of Oliver's son, an inevitable hook-up with his mother (Oliver's not allowed to go without a lay for too long), a villain kidnapping the kid and other clichéd stuff, while Laurel will dress up in the fishnets and magically defeat villains after a few episodes of training. Yeah, sorry, I'm out.

Edited May 29, 2014 by FurryFury

[Password]

Someone should tweet a link of these forums to the EPs to allow them to see our frustration. The first half of the season was top notch. The second half was a mess of nothingness, storylines that were retconned, arcs that weren't explored enough to be interesting, the lead character turning into something I cheered for Slade to remove...permanently. I hope s3 will be better because apparently they have the storyline figured out already. The second half of s2 was the EPs playing pin the tail on the donkey, only to find they donkey was in fact a badger. It made very little sense. It was entertaining, without thinking about what was happening on the screen. However, seeing as we analyse on these threads the holes seem so much larger.

[icandigit]

I know the concern was that they had too many characters and too many stories to juggle. But, then there was this 7 episode or more lag in the show that could have been easily filled fleshing out those characters and story lines.

[bluebonnet]

I don't know if this is the thread for this or if a general discussion thread should be created (or already exists and I missed it).  Can someone explain Blood's plan to me?  I really didn't understand his motivations or plan.  Was he hoping to destroy the city (again) so that he could be it's savior and protector?  Or was it something else that made more sense?

[Carrie Ann]

I think you're halfway there--he wanted to be the city's savior and protector, but not just for self-aggrandizing reasons. I think he really believed the city needed saving, and he wanted the wealthy and corrupt to be removed from power. He thought that after this huge, scary event, the city would be ready for the kind of change he wanted to make, and he'd be in position to make the changes. That actual concern for the city is why he gave Oliver the cure in the end.

[catrox14]

Man I really hope Blood isn't really most sincerely dead. I liked him in that villain liking way and Kevin Alejandro, please and thank you.

[writersblock51]

I think Blood is Dead Dead, and I, too, think it's a pity.  I would have liked to see him stay on as Mayor while he and Oliver knew who the other was, while both worked to help the city in their own ways.  Remove Slade from the picture and who knows how that would have shaped up.

 

Oh well.

 

 

The second half of s2 was the EPs playing pin the tail on the donkey, only to find they donkey was in fact a badger. It made very little sense.

That's one helluva funny analogy and also quite perfect!

 

I stopped watching live once the show came back from hiatus in Feb.  I'd heard enough about who was going to be featured and that was plenty to keep my away. I watched the show with the FF button used heavily.  I think "Three Ghosts" - in retrospect - was a finale of sorts.  And the 2nd half, with the exception, IMO, of the final 2 episodes, felt like a disjointed mess.  Other than the jacket scene and Quentin as a cliffhanger, I thought the finale was very good.  But there were a LOT of episodes between 2.10 and 2.22/2.23.  And I have many concerns about what S3 will turn out to be.

[FurryFury]

I didn't like the finale. Mostly because of Laurel's scenes and Sara leaving for the League, which made little sense and felt like a nail in the character's coffin, but also because it made apparent how much potential from the first half of the season has been wasted. I envisioned Oliver/Slade final stand as something much, much more awesome, powerful and moving. Think Angelus/Buffy fight in Buffy s2 finale. Now that was a climactic, dramatic resolution. What I got here was underwhelming to say the least.

[Password]

I didn't like the finale. Mostly because of Laurel's scenes and Sara leaving for the League, which made little sense and felt like a nail in the character's coffin, but also because it made apparent how much potential from the first half of the season has been wasted. I envisioned Oliver/Slade final stand as something much, much more awesome, powerful and moving. Think Angelus/Buffy fight in Buffy s2 finale. Now that was a climactic, dramatic resolution. What I got here was underwhelming to say the least.

 

I think the fact that in the last 5 episodes, at least 2 or 3 could have been a finale is a reason why it felt anti-climatic. When Moira died it felt like a finale, when Slade showed up and wreaked havoc it felt like a finale. So much happened that the finale and the fight was "meh" in a way. There wasn't anything unexpected. Even Quentin dying (hopefully he doesn't) didn't make it WOW. Whereas s1 when the Glades was moved by an earthquake, I remember thinking I can't believe it actually happened, AND Tommy died.

[tv echo]

I just read this interesting (and kinda funny) review of this past season of Arrow, which I don't believe has been linked elsewhere in these forums - and if it has, I apologize for repeating it.  

 

I agree with most, though not all, of what the reviewer says in his criticisms (most notably, I would remove Roy and Suicide Squad from the "Pros", and remove Sara and Ending from the "Cons"):

 

Easter Eggs, Spoilers and Opinion: Arrow Season 2 Review by Mark Robirds, Jr. (May 20, 2014)
http://moviepilot.com/posts/2014/05/20/easter-eggs-spoilers-and-opinion-arrow-season-2-review-1434919?lt_source=external,manual#!SlYnc

Edited May 30, 2014 by tv echo

[bluebonnet]

Whoa, really didn't agree with half of his cons.  Though it makes me wonder if Sara wouldn't have been so likeable (to me and a large portion of the fandom, not for that reviewer) if we hadn't already been subjected to Laurel. 

[quarks]

Huh. Is Dinah Lance supposed to be Irish or Irish-American in the comics? I never got that impression, but then again I haven't read that much of Birds of Prey or the Green Arrow comics, and most of the Irish people I've seen in comics have been coded with red hair and a thick brogue, unless the comic writer is going for "accuracy" in which case it's black hair and a thick brogue. Not a blond wig. But I guess the Canary cry is kinda like a banshee, now that it's been pointed out to me.

 

I liked the concept of the Suicide Squad; I just thought the execution, and by execution I mean Amanda Waller, was terrible. And I loved Sara and Nyssa as lesbians but I am willing to admit that may just be my lust/sudden obsession with Nyssa talking. 

Edited May 30, 2014 by quarks

[doesntworkonwood]

Amanda Waller is absolutely awful. She drags down any scene she's in and her character makes no sense whatsoever. I did like Suicide Squad though, mostly because I think Deadshot is a really interesting character, and I like Diggles interactions with him.

[catrox14]

Well, that "review" was ...something...

 

As to his critique of Lotz, even the most ardent Lotz critics recognize her physicality and ability to do the stunt work and fight choreography as top notch so right there he loses credibility and his piece starts to read like a troll piece. The Canary Cry: Did he completely miss that the Canary cry is manifested in the show as a function of a piece of technology? It was there just not the way he wanted.  Pretentious? I do not think that means what he thinks it means. Sara displays well-earned confidence in her abilities to fight and kickass as Black Canary.  Where he gets pretentious is beyond me.  And really Bella Swan? He clearly has no idea who Sara Lance is if he is actually going to compare her to Bella Swan. That's just stupid on every level.

 

Clearly, he wasn't paying attention when lumped all the female characters not named Felicity into the same bucket of badly written and badly acted. Moira Queen IMO was the most well-developed, well-acted and completely three dimensional and layered female character with her own motivations and storyline in the show. Or Moira didn't meet his narrative purpose in the review to bash every female not named Felicity. 

 

As to the 5 years on a hellish island...I'm thinking that's been a metaphor more than an actual place now. And I suppose if I wanted to be really pedantic Hong Kong is an island so technically, the voice over is still accurate.

[KirkB]

If anyone's Bella it's Laurel, what with the one basic acting expression and all.

[catrox14]

You know, KirkB, it wouldn't surprise me if that 'reviewer' didn't actually confuse Sara for Laurel considering how little he really seemed to pay attention to the female characters not named Felicity or Isobel Rochev.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Well, now that I think about it Caity did have a pouty face a lot of the time, but it's not like her character had an abundance of reasons to be smiling.  Season 2 wasn't a happy time for the folks in the Arrow Cave.  And no, Caity isn't the best actress on the show, but she's so soft-spoken and her real-life warmth can't help but radiate through, so I find her likable.  I had some issues with her increased presence in the back half of season 2, but I think she is a great Black Canary and an awesome fighter.  The scene where she jumped at Deathstroke and he grabbed her by the neck midair was one of the coolest things I've seen on this show.  

 

I wasn't as jazzed as that reviewer about the island flashbacks or the Suicide Squad episode, that's for sure.  And where the review mentions the pacing picking up at around midseason, that's basically where I felt that everything came to a screeching halt.

 

He was right about the show being super soapy and the Ravager outfit being ridiculous.  I thought Deathstroke's mask was super-cheesy as well.  I think I was supposed to be getting "menacing" from that, but it just wasn't working for me. 

[catrox14]

I never said Lotz was the best actress but he went after her inability to fight properly on screen and that's flat out wrong.

Edited May 30, 2014 by catrox14

[SonofaBiscuit]

Oh no, catrox14.  I didn't mean that comment about Lotz's acting directed at you.  I meant that directed towards the reviewer of the article linked above.  He talks about Caity being a "terrible actress".  She's definitely not what I would consider terrible...she certainly isn't even the worst actress on this show.

Edited May 30, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[KirkB]

If anything, she's the best fighter in the cast. Amell does a lot of his stuff but much of it is stuntperson too. Caity, having trained as a stuntperson herself, actually does much of it.

[catrox14]

KirkB, I didn't think you meant it towards me, I was replying to SonofaBiscuit.  I should have made that more clear.  It's all good!

[writersblock51]

I thought parts of that review were on target for my own perspective.  But much of it was very different from my point of view.

 

I was excited by the Suicide Squad but I can't stand this version of Waller (and I know she matches the New 52 one, which I'm also inclined to dislike) AND I was disappointed in how Shrapnel was used/killed off so quickly.  On the other hand, I have thoroughly enjoyed Deadshot/Floyd Lawton this season and the teaser with Harley Quinn was nicely done.  I'm on the fence about Bronze Tiger.  I want to like him but I was also underwhelmed, and I'm not sure why.  I'm glad he's still around to come back, though.

 

I absolutely disagree with the reviewer about Caity Lotz and Black Canary.  Ok, maybe he's right about the pout thing.  BUT THAT'S IT.  I think CL is fantastic with the stunt work.  I have no idea who the reviewer thinks could have handled it better.

[truecrystal]

I also disagree with his assessment of Summer Glau. She was serviceable in the role but I didn't find her anything special. Honestly, I never have understood the fascination with her.

[slayer2]

Ah bitterness! That Felicity is still snooping around into Moira's business in 2.13 makes me buggy. Reminds me of Chloe micro-monitoring everyone in season 9 of Smallville. Yes Felicity, you're a hacker, I get it. Doesn't give you the right to go snooping around in others affairs and bossing them around about it! I could understand if she fell into the info innocently but I'm not cool with her digging hernise where it doesn't belong. The last few months alive were spent at odds with Thea due to a secret that should have been kept just that. Thanks a lot Felicity, thanks a fucking million. Gah!

While I'm at the bitterness, who the fuck is Oliver or Felicity to get pissy with Moira about secrets and lies. Hello? Pot to Kettle? You're fucking black. Gah!

Edited May 31, 2014 by slayer2

[BunsenBurner]

I do not understand about the pout thing with CL and why it bothers everyone.  The first time I saw it I thought it was great because it reminds me of PB and the way he moves his mouth. They are not exactly the same but they both do it. Like father like daughter. I am also putting this on the CL thread.

Edited May 31, 2014 by BunsenBurner

[tv echo]

Felicity wasn't snooping around in Moira's business just because she's a hacker.  As I recall, back in Season 1, when Walter asked her to help him investigate Moira, she programmed an alert if there was any activity in Moira's accounts.  In Season 2, she received an alert and went first to Moira to ask her about what she discovered.  So she did fall into the info about Thea's paternity innocently.  Moira tried to manipulate Felicity into keeping silent.  Also, Felicity did not want to tell Oliver, but Oliver picked up on the tension between her and Moira at Moira's press conference and confronted her.  Felicity could not lie to Oliver and felt that he would hate her for telling him.  

[icandigit]

Felicity and Diggle are really protective of Oliver when it comes to his mom. They know she's shady and they know Oliver has a blind spot with her. They intentionally look out for him when it comes to her.