Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Sakura12]

They showed everyone an amazing badass final project, threw it in the trash and are now giving us the first rough draft, then they wonder why they failed. 

[HighHopes]

I think they will try the argument "give Laurel as the BC a chance! She of course won't be like Sara! They learned to fight under different circumstances (enter KC interview here about how Laurel chose to learn to fight and Sara fell into it). You'll love Laurel just as much just wait!". At least until mid-season four or possibly the season four finale. After that, who knows what argument they will use.

I shouldn't have to like every female character just because they are female, and I shouldn't accept every female friendship just because it's between two female characters. That's not what I want from my female characters and that's not realistic. I want better for the female characters on the shows I watch, and if that includes calling out terrible writing and characterization and not liking that character, that's fine. That's what we should be doing. We shouldn't just accept everything a female does because "oh no. Can't hate a female character!". Do I want more female friendships on Arrow? Yes. God yes. But I don't want those friendships to happen inorganically. Laurel and Felicity could have formed a friendship in season two when Felicity seemed to be the only one who believed Laurel about Blood. They could have had Felicity do some digging and bring it to Laurel as proof. They could have fought along side each other against Blood, one on the legal side and one by doing some not so legal things. That would have made sense. But now? Not so much.

Edited January 21, 2015 by HighHopes

[Happy Harpy]

I'm bitter because I feel that Arrow is like the ugly duckling of the DC franchise, including in the eyes of its writers.

 

Arrow deserves better than being used as a matrix for spinoffs, to see its narrative broken and messed in order to make place for characters who just don't belong.

 

Oliver, and S.Amell who portrayed him with enough layers to get people interested in his journey, deserves better than being backburned and used as a McGuffin on his own show.

 

Arrow and Oliver deserve better than being treated as afterthoughts, and imo that's what happens.

[KenyaJ]

Today, I got a surprise gift from one of my best friends.  She knows I'm an Arrow fan, but she doesn't watch, so I haven't told her how apathetic I'm feeling about the show lately. Anyway, it was thoughtful, nonetheless. But one of the things she got me was the 2015 calendar, and WTF is this bullshit? 

 

 

No Diggle, Felicity, or Thea, but there's space for random Season 1 villains? I'm so incredibly annoyed by this calendar. I almost wish my friend hadn't bothered spending her money on it.

[calliope1975]

That calendar's great. I mean, I love Michael Jai White as much as any other action hero, Black Dynamite loving girl, but I don't think he needs his own month. And yet I would buy an entire calendar of just Felicity Smoak or Felicity and Oliver staring doofily at one another. 

 

I'm not too surprised though. Both DC and Marvel have the worst merch as far as what fans actually want. And that's without even touching on the lack of merch for and including the ladies of Marvel and DC.

[TanyaKay]

I think they will try the argument "give Laurel as the BC a chance! She of course won't be like Sara! They learned to fight under different circumstances (enter KC interview here about how Laurel chose to learn to fight and Sara fell into it). You'll love Laurel just as much just wait!". At least until mid-season four or possibly the season four finale. After that, who knows what argument they will use.

I will forever be bitter about that " Laurel chose to learn to fight and Sara fell into it" line. I have no great love for Sara (I thought all Lance women are diabolical creatures - from sister swapping to their sister swapping approving mother) but that line seems pure pettiness on KC's account. It's like she is trying to belittle both the character and the actor who played that part which will never win her any appreciation or support.

[quarks]

....they've released a 2015 Arrow calendar and yet still haven't restocked the Star Labs sweatshirts at Hot Topic or anywhere else??????

 

Ok, I was enjoying this show this season a lot more than most of you, BUT NOW I AM BITTER. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by quarks

[statsgirl]

No Diggle, Felicity, or Thea, but there's space for random Season 1 villains? I'm so incredibly annoyed by this calendar. I almost wish my friend hadn't bothered spending her money on it.

Write and tell them and that you won't be getting the 2016 calendar if there is one. It may not make a difference but if you don't tell them, it certainly won't make a difference.

 

If you post the address, I'll write too. I have no interest in getting a Laurel/random villains calendar.

[Sakura12]

KC is probably bitter about Sara/Caity being the first and better Black Canary that's why her best line reading was when she screamed that Sara stole her life. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by Sakura12

[jay741982]

KC is probably bitter about Sara/Caity being the first and better Black Canary that's why her best line reading was when she screamed that Sara stole her life.

Like her fans who scream that Felicity stole Oliver from her lol

[chaos is welcome]

New superheroes promo made me throw up in my mouth a little.

Also, bitter that I had no desire to watch flash. Probably thanks to the TCA fiasco. Endlessly bitter.

Edited January 21, 2015 by chaos is welcome

[Shanna]

I am so bitter that I am not excited for this show coming back at all because I am afraid its going to be a bunch of laurel bullshit and not Oliver, no felicity or only felicity in support of Brandon rouths character. I am actually afraid to watch live. Boo.

And damn I would be pissed if I had gotten that calendar! Wtf??? I adore tommy but why is he there? Maybe they were only allowed to use season one promo stuff from before they knew felicity would be popular?

Edited January 21, 2015 by Shanna

[DrSpaceman10]

It seems like these writers only know how to write women as love-interests or costumed vigilantes. Where's Willa Holland's "reward" for being a team player the past two seasons? All Thea's gotten is brainwashed into killing someone and a creepy DJ love-interest. As other people have said repeatedly, it seems Felicity is only the supporting character/potential love-interest in Ray's origin story, when really Ray should be a supporting character in Felicity's story. 

 

This is something that I've also noticed on The Flash with Iris, while I think Iris is likeable, she's the love-interest and not much else. 

 

Kreisberg said in an interview released today that "Green Arrow, The Flash, and The Atom are all in love with [Felicity]". Is that what the EPs think Felicity's main purpose is, to be the love interest for whichever new superhero they decide to bring on? It's starting to seem like it...

Edited January 22, 2015 by drspaceman10

[jay741982]

It seems like these writers only know how to write women as love-interests or costumed vigilantes. Where's Willa Holland's "reward" for being a team player the past two seasons? All Thea's gotten is brainwashed into killing someone and a creepy DJ love-interest. As other people have said repeatedly, it seems Felicity is only the supporting character/potential love-interest in Ray's origin story, when really Ray should be a supporting character in Felicity's story. 

 

This is something that I've also noticed on The Flash with Iris, while I think Iris is likeable, she's the love-interest and not much else. 

 

Kreisberg said in an interview released today that "Green Arrow, The Flash, and The Atom are all in love with [Felicity]". Is that what the EPs think Felicity's main purpose is, to be the love interest for whichever new superhero they decide to bring on? It's starting to seem like it...

The Flash is in love with Iris so that is a dumb statement, I don't think Ray is in Love with Felicity, and Oliver is

[Shanna]

The flash is not in love with felicity, how asinine!

[Chaser]

For Laurel to suit up: Oliver had to die, Team Arrow had to step down, and Felicity had to make a mistake that let out all the bad guys they had previously put away. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[jay741982]

Diggle and Roy were gonna lose anyway it's really unfair to blame her.

[Danny Franks]

For Laurel to suit up: Oliver had to die, Team Arrow had to step down, and Felicity had to make a mistake that let out all the bad guys they had previously put away. 

 

And Sara had to die. And Quentin had to have a heart attack that made him so fragile that Laurel couldn't share the burden of her sister dying with him, but could tell her mother, who egged Laurel on to get vengeance. Basically, every character has to either be removed or be an idiot to make Laurel relevant. That's... some going, show.

[tv echo]

I'm going to rant about two things...

 

1.  "I'm the justice that you can't run from."

It's both ironic and hypocritical for Laurel to make that her Black Canary quippy line.  How many times has Laurel herself broken the law and gotten away with it?  She got away with DUI because of her cop father.  She got away with meeting with Moira without the defense lawyer present during an ongoing trial and giving away prosecution evidence/strategy.  She got away with beating up an injured guy in his hospital bed.  She got away with assaulting a guy with a baseball bat.  Maybe someone should mete out justice to Laurel.

 

2.  The EPs' 'blind spots.' 

The EPs apparently really don't see some of the things that viewers see, when it comes to the show: 

-- Although they've never commented on it, they've also never acknowledged the repugnance, stupidity, etc., of the Lance sister-swapping, first with Oliver having alternating sex with the two sisters multiple times, and now with Laurel replacing Sara as the Black Canary.  (Yes, I realize MG has said it's not replacement, but living up to Sara's legacy - but B.S.  It's replacement.) 

-- According to MG, they really didn't stop to consider the significance of literally fridging Sara.
-- The EPs don't find Ray Palmer stalkerish at all.
-- They still envision Laurel as a warm, compassionate lawyer with a big heart who fights for justice, despite the disconnect with what we've seen on screen.  (This has already been discussed at length in other threads, so I won't say more.)

Edited January 22, 2015 by tv echo

[moviewhore]

I'm bitter that Laurel just put on her late sister's outfit and started kicking ass like she's done it for years.  It's just fallen into her lap.  No goddamn training and she's like Buffy now.  And, fuck it all, Quentin still has no idea Sara's dead.  Christ, what bullshit to not let him know about that. 

 

I'm also bitter that Thea was mindfucked by her own dad and is still being manipulated by him. 

 

Most of all I'm bitter that Lotz's work on the show, the care she put into making Sara relatable and real was for nothing more than to prop up Laurel and make her into the Black Canary.  Sara had to die horribly for that.  That is unforgivable to me. 

[Genki]

I'm bitter that they are repeating the "Don't tell Lance, Sara is dead" with Thea. 

[Starfish35]

Most of all I'm bitter that Lotz's work on the show, the care she put into making Sara relatable and real was for nothing more than to prop up Laurel and make her into the Black Canary. Sara had to die horribly for that. That is unforgivable to me.

Yeah, that's something I'll never be able to forgive the show for, even if I'm getting past the insane rage over it. ;)

[Chaser]

I get that it's Canary, Laurel, Canary, Laurel. That is the main story.

 

.EBR killed it in Left Behind. No props. No fanfare.

 

I'm even getting annoyed at DR right now. The priase he is throwing on KC (and CH) and no mention of EBR.

Edited January 22, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[apinknightmare]

I'm even getting annoyed at DR right now. The priase he is throwing on KC (and CH) and no mention of EBR.

 

Are you talking about his Collider interview? Because either he wasn't asked about EBR or they cut those answers from the interview, so the upcoming BC arc could be spotlighted. 

[Shanna]

I'm bitter that they are repeating the "Don't tell Lance, Sara is dead" with Thea.

Damn, now I am too!!! At least they were still mostly in denial about the whole thing and there is no body so it's a little more understandable. And Merlin is evil and will only do what benefits him.

Oh yeah, I'm also bitter that I have to watch felicity set up spin off number two, even though I know it is because she is awesome, because what the hell show?

Edited January 22, 2015 by Shanna

[Chaser]

It's more of an in-general complaint.

 

DR was praised (rightfully so) for his performance. However if it wasn't with Laurel, would it have been given the same attenion by the EPs? I doubt it.

 

Maybe I'm just feeling really protective of EBR/Felicity now. Shrug

[HighHopes]

I'm bitter because now we are going to have Laurel in scenes like this. 

 

 

Katie Cassidy walks too stiff for me to believe that she could have a "tough/badass" walk. She has more of a...power/fashion walk to her? 

[jay741982]

I'm bitter because now we are going to have Laurel in scenes like this. 

 

 

Katie Cassidy walks too stiff for me to believe that she could have a "tough/badass" walk. She has more of a...power/fashion walk to her?

Ooh yeah Sara and Nyssa walked like badasses cause they are or were in Sara's case :( Laurel? Not so much

[wonderwall]

If you watched the producer's preview for episode 11, did anyone notice how weird Laurel was walking holding her bo staff with two hands? I thought it was awkward and really stiff and I thought I was the only one to notice...

[SonofaBiscuit]

If you watched the producer's preview for episode 11, did anyone notice how weird Laurel was walking holding her bo staff with two hands? I thought it was awkward and really stiff and I thought I was the only one to notice...

 

I was thinking that it was on purpose to show Laurel "struggling" at first.  I'm sure she'll be an expert in about two episodes because we don't want to rush it...

[insubordination]

Alas the bitterness  has overwhelmed me and I have now stopped watching 'Arrow'. I've only missed two eps so far, but have 0 desire to watch anything coming up (Imagining Laurel in a GIF like above was just the nail in the coffin). They really botched season 3 and I can't see it improving from here. Most of the support characters -the ones still alive-  have been ruined (Diggle/Felicity/Quentin/Thea). I don't care for Laurel or Roy.

 

They've just wasted John Barrowman's time with his role.  And If Ra's is their big gun, well call me underwhelmed. They've already botched Slade and I don't want to see him back.  I can watch a very crappy show (Pretty Little Liars) if it has good and consistent main characters with interesting friendships, but Arrow has not been able to pull that off this season. They've only had success with the 'crappy' part (Flash X-over excluded).

 

I predict the show's actually going to get much, much worse. I held in right til the end for 'Dexter' and it was a huge mistake. The characters were massacred beyond repair and I'm embarrassed I ever thought it was worthy of my time.

 

Will wean myself off 'Arrow' by reading the amusing reactions here for a while like some of you former viewers do. There have been so many good (Fake/Hack/Buckle/Blech) Canary nicknames to keep me grinning. It's a shame, 'cos I still like what Stephen Amell does with what he gets. I want his character to succeed as a human being and superhero. However, MG (or whoever) has made so many errors of judgement, it's inconceivable! I wish Nyssa would kick his ass.

Edited January 24, 2015 by insubordination

[KirkB]

I'm not ready to give up on the show yet, but I actually agree with a lot of your points.

 

As much as I enjoy watching Barrowman, he's been absolutely wasted here. When he showed up in season one it was a big deal because you didn't know what he was up to and the only person who could survive his scenery chewing was Susanna Thompson. Now he mostly just shows up enough to earn his presumably substantial paycheck. 

 

Ra's was what I was most looking forward to before the season started. And while I know Matt Nable is doing his best, the accent still throws me and for the world's greatest assassin he's just so...bland.

 

Slade started out really well, then his whole story line just kind of fell apart.

 

And last but not least, Laurel. I don't hate her, but trying to promote the single least interesting character on the show to me isn't going to get them anywhere. 

[Morrigan2575]

Katie Cassidy walks too stiff for me to believe that she could have a "tough/badass" walk. She has more of a...power/fashion walk to her?

it's a tough, edgy, "sexy" fashion runway walk. Basically (IMO) KC thinks this is how a tough/sexy/badass chick would walk.

[NumberCruncher]

Reading the latest round of MG "spoilers" only reminded me how much I loathe that he's the main showrunner. The thing that struck me is that practically everything he hinted at or said runs complete opposite to what I would find enjoyable to watch. At this point I really do wonder if my loyalty to the show is only going to end up biting me in the ass as I force myself to keep watching in the hope things improve only to find out they never do after I've wasted all that time I could have been watching a better show.

[wingster55]

Sidelining the most capable actress in favor of one who is awful at drama or subtlety and another who...is just awful in general.

 

Same with sidelining all male actors...other than Stephen (and even that's not true)

[statsgirl]

I'm bitter because I'm reading comments all over the place of "Laurel is so great, she's stepped up to lead the team when Felicity quit and Diggle and Roy didn't know what to do".  No one seems to get it that Laurel putting on Sara's costume and going out to fight when she can't is the same kind of problematic response to Sara and Oliver's deaths that Felicity and Diggle had.

 

Also bitter because they keep getting rid of the best in the actresses. Caity Lotz was the best physical Canary and she brought the vulnerability the role needed.  EBR and Willa Holland are good, but they're no Susanna Thompson.

Edited January 24, 2015 by statsgirl

[Chaser]

I feel like after this episode we were tossed into the Twilight zone. The pro-Laurel comments are one thing, but all the hate of Felicity and too an extent Diggle and Roy. And yet, Laurel and Black Canary couldn't even trend and it wasn't getting a lot of love on twitter or with critics (which Team Arrow did).

But all of Team Arrow trended, usually with a Poor in front of it. And yet accordind to some on tumblr, they didn't grieve enough...

 

Its just weird.

[jay741982]

Laurel fans being extremely vocal and fans of Team Arrow and Felicity weren't as vocal cause they know Laurel is being shoved down our throats and nothing we can do about it. The biggest Laurel fan of the 3 creators is running things. He seems to like Olicity yet he puts them through this angst that didn't have to happen

[dtissagirl]

I'm bitter because I'm reading comments all over the place of "Laurel is so great, she's stepped up to lead the team when Felicity quit and Diggle and Roy didn't know what to do".  No one seems to get it that Laurel putting on Sara's costume and going out to fight when she can't is the same kind of problematic response to Sara and Oliver's deaths that Felicity and Diggle had.

How is she leading the team when she buckled up and went out alone, without telling the team? Troll logic, it is insane.

[tv echo]

Maybe Laurel/BC didn't trend because she was barely BC for 2 seconds at the end of the last episode?  Perhaps the real test will be next week's episode

when Laurel's BC will be fighting a lot out in the field

- it might be more likely to trend then.  If it still doesn't, then that will be significant.

[apinknightmare]

Maybe Laurel/BC didn't trend because she was barely BC for 2 seconds at the end of the last episode?  Perhaps the real test will be next week's episode

when Laurel's BC will be fighting a lot out in the field

- it might be more likely to trend then.  If it still doesn't, then that will be significant.

 

Her fans are organizing a trend, so it probably will. 

[quarks]

Maybe Laurel/BC didn't trend because she was barely BC for 2 seconds at the end of the last episode?

 

 

The two second thing has been true for other things that have trended in Arrow's past, though. I think it's more that at the end, viewers were focused on Maseo, which did trend. Not surprisingly -  "Oliver is coming back, right?  How?" was the big fan question going into the episode.

[Sakura12]

Did Sara as BC trend when she appeared for 2 seconds in Season 2?

 

I really wonder what Caity Lotz thinks about what they did with her character.  They gave a her an empowering character to play, one who went through so much and survived to become a powerful woman that fought for other women. Then they were just like, "yeah we're going to kill Sara and get this, she's going to die standing there doing nothing, then we are going to throw her at a garbage dumpster, after they find her body the other characters are going to stick her in a refrigerator and instead of getting a heroes funeral they are going to bury her in an old grave and not tell anyone she's dead. That way Laurel the real Black Canary can rise from all her suffering of people leaving her and become a hero in her place. Doesn't that sound awesome for you?" "However, you can still come back to tell everyone how awesome and badass is Laurel is, you know so people get that she's the real BC. That should be fun, right?"
 

[tv echo]

At yesterday's Portland Comic Con, CL said "DC sent me the comics. But I took liberties. I felt like I could be my own character."

 

Why did they bother sending her the comics if Sara wasn't the "real" Black Canary, and if the EPs were just going to kill Sara off anyway?

[HighHopes]

At yesterday's Portland Comic Con, CL said "DC sent me the comics. But I took liberties. I felt like I could be my own character."

 

Why did they bother sending her the comics if Sara wasn't the "real" Black Canary, and if the EPs were just going to kill Sara off anyway?

 

I think DC actually wanted her to be the Black Canary. She had been invited to some sort of DC headquarters or something and other gifts as well. They made her into an action figure and they often called her "the Black Canary" in tweets and articles. 

 

It makes me even more angry for CL who read the comics and put so much thought into her character to be essentially replaced by an actress who has said multiple times that she wouldn't read the comics until she became the Black Canary on the show. Not to mention KC asked Geoff Johns (the Chief Creative Officer at DC Comics) if he has "ever read the comics" when he asked her a question about her character at SDCC this year. 

[TanyaKay]

I think DC actually wanted her to be the Black Canary. She had been invited to some sort of DC headquarters or something and other gifts as well. They made her into an action figure and they often called her "the Black Canary" in tweets and articles.

It makes me even more angry for CL who read the comics and put so much thought into her character to be essentially replaced by an actress who has said multiple times that she wouldn't read the comics until she became the Black Canary on the show. Not to mention KC asked Geoff Johns (the Chief Creative Officer at DC Comics) if he has "ever read the comics" when he asked her a question about her character at SDCC this year.

If all that is true then how do you explain her eventually becoming BC. From what I know, both DC and Marvel are extremely protective of their characters and how they are portrayed. If they were really concerned about the black canary and how she was portrayed and by whom, they would have made sure that their creative input is taken into account.

I personally think they never meant to introduce the character of Black Canary when they first envisioned the series, hence casting Katie Cassidy for Laurel Lance, a character that is not even called Dinah, the name that is associated with BC. The show was supposed to be about titular character of Arrow, and because he was a cheating cad in the comics with a semi permanent girl friend Dinah Lance, they made LL the love interest. They thought may be in the end, they will make her BC when green arrow is a fully actualized character because this one is an origins story. I think they never expected Arrow to be as popular and as big as it turned out to be. They had no idea that the thirst for characters other than Green Arrow would be that strong. That is why they later hired Colton Haynes to play side kick Arsenal and wondered what to do with the Black canary which lead to the addition of the character of Sara Lance.

But none of that answers the question why Katie Cassidy ended up being BC when they had a much better BC in another actress. I don't think we will know as long as the show is being aired.

[Sakura12]

I actually think that KC's contract stated she would be BC at some point. But they wanted a BC now, so they made Sara, they just for some reason didn't count on a badass woman that beats up abusers would be popular. They weren't going to hire CL at first because she looked too athletic compared to the rest of the CW actresses. They decided to go with her and also probably thought that an actress that can fight and looks the part wouldn't be popular with the male comic book fans. They were wrong. CL also cared a lot more about the character and brought more to her and generally enjoyed playing Sara, in the Canary costume and out of it. 

 

Cassidy it appears from the Behind the Media thread doesn't care all that much about the show or her character. She just wants the paycheck and hope it will lead her to bigger things. 

Edited January 25, 2015 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

If all that is true then how do you explain her eventually becoming BC. From what I know, both DC and Marvel are extremely protective of their characters and how they are portrayed.

 

By my previous experience with Smallville and Birds of Prey [and the fact that they gave David E Kelly OF ALL PEOPLE that Wonder Woman pilot OF HILARITY a few years ago], DC only extremely protects their male characters. And Black Canary in particular just recently got the shaft in the comics too, when the BoP book was canceled. Without Gail Simone, she doesn't seem to be a priority, unfortunately.

 

[it also doesn't help that they reverted Babs to Batgirl, and at the same time they canceled BoP, they rebooted Batgirl to cater to a much younger audience. And Babs has been Dinah's most important relationship for a while now, but the YA vibe doesn't really fit Dinah? Idek. I mean, Batgirl's a pretty good book currently, but it almost veers into teenybooperdom at times.]

Edited January 25, 2015 by dancingnancy

[kismet]

I will say that I am bitter that they would introduce Sara, only to kill her after 1 season. It does seem that CL did put a lot of effort into the BC character. It seems like KC put a lot of thought into LL, not BC, so it would be interesting to see how it plays out moving forward. Im not sure if its a contractual thing, but it does seem that may have drove the decision making. It just felt a little short sighted. They could have had Sara as a bad-ass, but not be the canary. I do miss Sara, but thats not a slight to the new BC. Im just sad that they proceed kill people off for plot lines, that could possibly be achieved in other ways.

One of DC Universe's primary goal is to make profits. That is why they do not allow certain characters on the TV shows if it might interfere with the movies or comic portrayals. I think that is why the suicide squad may be pushed back on Arrow, now that there is a SS movie in production. So as much as I think they put some thought into helping CL being BC, I don't think they care if the ARROW team can somehow make the new BC popular and profitable. The fact that they are changing some of their newer comics to include Diggle & Felicity indicates to me that they don't mind plans for their characters being altered, so long as there is good stories that help increase interest & profits. I don't think female superheroes have ever been financially as profitable as males, but I think that is more to do with audiences than the DC universe choosing not to care about their female characters. Sadly, it likely all comes down to profits.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Not to mention KC asked Geoff Johns (the Chief Creative Officer at DC Comics) if he has "ever read the comics" when he asked her a question about her character at SDCC this year.

Are you SERIOUS?  Is there a cite for this?