Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Morrigan2575]

Brought over from SM thread about Screentimes.

Quote

Exactly. I feel like Dinah has been given elevated and unearned importance in the show not because she is in any way necessary or relevant to Oliver and his story but because she has the “important” comic book name/codename.

She really hasn't been elevated or mde super important. What she has done is gotten the same treatment Rene got in S5. 

In S5 Rene got a ton of screentime, he got storylines, a flashback episode and relationships with Oliver and Lance. Obviously the reason for this is because unlike Evelyn and Rory, Rene was the one they planned to keep long-term and put effort into it.

Granted people hated it and him but, it's obvious why they did it.

Now in S6 they're doing the same with Dinah. She was introduced late in S5 and other than her introduction episode in 511 she was pretty much wallpaper both in screentime and story. The only thing she really got was a friendship with Diggle. However, even that wasn't unique since by that time Felicity/Rory, Felicity/Curtis, Oliver/Rene and Lance/Rene had all been setup.

In S6 Dinah got an arc, she got a flashback episode and she got a villain (who she really shares with Lance).

To me there is no difference, they're giving time to develop a new, long-term character, just like they did for Rene in S5.

I get that people don't like the fact that the show is spending time on the Noobs but, I don't really but, older shows very often introduce new characters (even if I feel it never works).

Edited March 19, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

Dinah also got a love interest, and like Rene she replaced Oliver and Felicity as the person Diggle talks to.

48 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

She really hasn't been elevated or made super important. What she has done is gotten the same treatment Rene got in S5. 

Would Rene have got the treatment if he hadn't been Wild Dog? And if they weren't launching a comic book series with the character?

Like Ralph Dibney, these characters with the comic book names got sudden attention and more attention than long-running characters on the show's who still had story to tell.  I can't think of any reason to push aside Thea, who was not only popular but a had a mask and costume, to spend the time on Wild Dog, Mr. Terrific and Black Canary other than their comic book histories.

It's possible to bring in a new character well, you start small and make sure to never have the noob push aside the characters they audience is tuning in for.  Murdoch Mysteries did it with Det. Watts (played by Daniel Maslany, Tatiana's brother) by bringing him in first in small doses and then establishing him better until he's one of the characters I'm excited to see.  Castle, on the other hand, blew it with the character of Hayley Shipton (English PI) in s8  by having her take on much of the functions of Beckett when they wanted to push Kate aside. It's no surprise the show was cancelled at the end of the season.

So whether Dinah is actually taking over the show in s6 as Rene seemed to in s5 or she's not, she's using up more show time than many in the audience want her to have.  And like Rene, it's probably because of her comic book history and not because the character or the actor is worth it.

[way2interested]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Castle, on the other hand, blew it with the character of Hayley Shipton (English PI) in s8  by having her take on much of the functions of Beckett when they wanted to push Kate aside. It's no surprise the show was cancelled at the end of the season.

And that was from bts issues, just like the majority of Arrow's problems, including the newbs, Thea, and Dinah. It's not that the writers are obsessed with comics and want to throw everything to them. More like they are pushed to go one way and then try to find something that works for them and subsequently the show and it just hasn't worked out well in audience reactions.

[BkWurm1]

I really wish they could have given Dinah focus and attention in a positive way rather than an antagonistic manner.  Maybe she'd bug me less. Maybe not.  But I know how they did choose to develop her didn't endear her to me.  

[tangerine95]

Yeah Dinah is basically just like season 5 Rene.He got as much focus and it was just as annoying.It's pretty weird that when they give character focus suddenly they're aggressive and hating Oliver,like that's the go to storyline it seems.

I think the issue with Arrow is that they never stop with the new characters that sideline the main cast.Season 2 was Sara which as slightly better imo because they had a better storyline in season 2 so it was easier to get over it,then season 3 Ray and yet another time reinventing the BC character with Laurel then season 5 they introduce 5 newbies ,including another BC, who get heavy focus overall and again in season 6 the newbies are a thing overwhelming everything only now it's Dinah leading it and not Rene.I mean shows do tend to at some point usually late in the run introduce new characters who aren't really needed and who are heavily pushed and pretty often rejected by the audience but for arrow its a constant thing due to spinoffs,DC mandated masks and bts issues with actors.But at this point it's really bringing the show down especially when the main characters are all sidelined and don't really have storylines so it's a lot more glaring.

Edited March 19, 2018 by tangerine95

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh @BkWurm1!!!! You are needed HERE!

[bijoux]

To give credit where it’s due, I do think Roy was integrated well and Curtis had a decent introduction. How he’s been used since joining the team is a different story.

[Primal Slayer]

I'm still annoyed that Ted Grants storyline was cut short. They should've just recasted the role if they couldn't secure the actor (same with Mari) and gone with it. 

[Primal Slayer]

They really should have explored a teammate transitioning into the dark side. And not that half assed crap they pulled with Artemis. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I'm still annoyed that Ted Grants storyline was cut short. They should've just recasted the role if they couldn't secure the actor (same with Mari) and gone with it. 

Refresh my memory, who is Ted Grant?

8 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

They really should have explored a teammate transitioning into the dark side. And not that half assed crap they pulled with Artemis. 

I agree with this. And the way the newbies have behaved this season it would actually make sense. I still don't really understand why Evelyn decided to join Chase. She hated that Oliver murdered people so she joined forces with a murderer??? Weird.

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, Angel12d said:

Refresh my memory, who is Ted Grant?

Laurels first trainer in the first half of Season 3. Former vigilante known as Wildcat. 

[JamieLynn832002]

57 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I still don't really understand why Evelyn decided to join Chase. She hated that Oliver murdered people so she joined forces with a murderer??? Weird.

Yeah, that never made sense, 'You used to be a serial killer of bad guys so clearly the only solution is to join forces with guy who is currently a serial killer of innocent people.' Evelyn was screwed up from what happened with her parents but they never adequately (or really at all) explained her motivations. They went for the surprise evil reveal without ever going back to explain why.

Edited April 1, 2018 by JamieLynn832002

[Morrigan2575]

I continue to shake my head at how Arrow handled this Civil War. Fan loyalty to OTA is the least of the problems. They continue to write Noobs as assholes. 

I also don't get the Felicity has to apologize to Curtis while Curtis acts like an arrogant ass. I get the being the bigger person and making the first move but, wouldn't it have made more sense for Curtis to reciprocate rather than gloat?

Did they just not see it even as far as writing for 619/620?  Because I can't see why theyd have written that 619 scene that way?

Or did they see it but, figured the only way to fix that issue was TELL the audience that OTA were bad and you should hate them because poor Noobs?

[Guest]

It goes beyond fan loyalty to OTA at this point. They've just written the newbies badly from the start.

First OTA are the ones who remained a team and were still out there hunting Cayden James while the newbies stopped for over a month. Shows how little they really care. Then they acted like rude smug assholes every time OTA kindly offered them intel but refused the same courtesy. Dinah blamed Oliver for her shitty boyfriend's death. Rene attacked Oliver with an axe and shot at the people he loves the most. All three of them hacked Diggle's chip and kind of relished it tbh which was gross. 

And finally, when the opportunity to take some blame presented itself, Curtis didn't apologize to Felicity for any of it. And now the 3 of them are still acting like they're the best thing ever and taking joy in Oliver being alone.

I just don't understand how the writers ever thought fans would respond to that kind of behavior. Not just because a majority prefer OTA but because Oliver actually hasn't done anything wrong. I'm forever baffled by the whole thing and the writers defending them makes it worse. How much more infuriating is this gonna get? ?

[BunsenBurner]

It’s getting to a point where I think there’s something in the water in Star City and the NTA are acting out because of it. Not that it would ever make me like them. They just don’t fit with the OTA. 

[statsgirl]

I really wonder if the n00bs will be shown to be wrong and shitty in the end in-show and the writers defending them is just fogging. Because how can any adult, much less a whole room of writers, not see how bad they are?

Even in the last episode when Felicity apologized because she desperately needed a friend and Curtis gloated -- how can the writers not see how bad this is?  Does. Not. Compute.

[way2interested]

25 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Did they just not see it even as far as writing for 619/620?  Because I can't see why theyd have written that 619 scene that way?

That's the thing that gets me, that in writing this in a way trying to have both sides have a point they wrote and continue to write (either consciously or subconsciously) the newbies as jerks. It's almost as if they guessed, from how people reacted in s5, that people would automatically get mad at Oliver, so then they would have to balance it by making the newbies seem more jerkish and OTA more sympathetic, but then thinking that the newbies would have a sympathetic leg to stand on. It's very odd. I wonder if they were ever even told to fix anything in 6b in retaliation to reactions (I think to the extent they must have been told something since Rene was gone for 5 full episodes and he's the direct beginning of this whole plot), but clearly it wasn't about the attitudes of the newbies.

[Guest]

Is it possible the complaints about the newbies came too late to change things in the later episodes? I'm not entirely sure when they would've written 619/620.

[way2interested]

Just now, Angel12d said:

Is it possible the complaints about the newbies came too late to change things in the later episodes? I'm not entirely sure when they would've written 619/620.

I think it would be too late to change the plot, like Diggle leaving and them trying to frame it in the way that the way Oliver lives his life alienates people, but dialogue is changed on-set all of the time, so I'm not sure why lines like this or the interactions between Curtis and Felicity were not tweaked a bit.

Edited April 26, 2018 by way2interested

[SmallScreenDiva]

11 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I think it would be too late to change the plot, like Diggle leaving and them trying to frame it in the way that the way Oliver lives his life alienates people, but dialogue is changed on-set all of the time, so I'm not sure why lines like this or the interactions between Curtis and Felicity were not tweaked a bit.

THIS. Also, they got the first taste of the anti- ewbie vibes in 609. They could have started tweaking the 615 script but we’re still getting jackass newbies in 620, so either they don’t really get the need to course-correct or they really don’t want to or both. 

[lemotomato]

34 minutes ago, way2interested said:

but dialogue is changed on-set all of the time, so I'm not sure why lines like this or the interactions between Curtis and Felicity were not tweaked a bit.

I wonder if it’s not just a problem with the dialogue, but also the way the actors chose to say their lines. Both EK (in 619) and RG (in the 620 preview) picked “smug” when they could’ve sounded more sad or even pity. I think that aligns with the newbie actors’ tone on social media where they’re defensive and even resentful at the backlash their characters are getting. 

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

I wonder if it’s not just a problem with the dialogue, but also the way the actors chose to say their lines.

Still, that can be changed from the director who also still can choose himself/herself to change the line if it doesn't work. It just tells me it's not a priority to make the newbies look good even after the backlash. At this point they are just trying to cover up the mistake by tying it back to a bigger plot and Oliver's own self-perception issues rather than actually trying to make the newbies look good out of all of this. Felicity apologizing and Curtis still snarking afterwards may not have been caught simply because they wanted to breeze through to get to Felicity expressing her feelings to set up future episodes and how Curtis looked never even mattered to them. I still think they care a bit, since very quickly after 614 the newbies faded into unrelated background subplots and Rene, the instigator, was gone for 5 episodes, but imo this just shows to me that they ultimately don't care about the newbies too much. They like them, sure, but see them ultimately as support for plots.

[Morrigan2575]

45 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I wonder if it’s not just a problem with the dialogue, but also the way the actors chose to say their lines. Both EK (in 619) and RG (in the 620 preview) picked “smug” when they could’ve sounded more sad or even pity. I think that aligns with the newbie actors’ tone on social media where they’re defensive and even resentful at the backlash their characters are getting. 

I was trying to figure out if there was an acting component. Like is it all the writing or are the actors choosing to play smug (or in JHs case incapable of playing anything else) when they could go for a different take that would make the characters better.

[statsgirl]

33 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Still, that can be changed from the director who also still can choose himself/herself to change the line if it doesn't work. It just tells me it's not a priority to make the newbies look good even after the backlash. At this point they are just trying to cover up the mistake by tying it back to a bigger plot and Oliver's own self-perception issues rather than actually trying to make the newbies look good out of all of this. Felicity apologizing and Curtis still snarking afterwards may not have been caught simply because they wanted to breeze through to get to Felicity expressing her feelings to set up future episodes and how Curtis looked never even mattered to them.

Even if the scripts are set, the EPs could have had a meeting with EK, RG and JH and said "Look, NTA is getting negative feedback from social media and some reviews so when you're doing your lines, make it more regretful than angry ". They wouldn't even have to use the word 'smug'.

But it seems like they didn't. I'm really waiting for that tell-all book.

[lemotomato]

46 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Still, that can be changed from the director who also still can choose himself/herself to change the line if it doesn't work. It just tells me it's not a priority to make the newbies look good even after the backlash

I don’t know if I’d lay the responsiblily of keeping track of a multi-episode arc on the directors, who show up to direct their own episodes and then peace out. I do agree that if the show cared about rehabilitating the newbies, there should’ve been a bigger effort to change the tone, whether that meant the EPs talking to the actors, or the writers including stage directions in the script. 

This all assumes the writers even care about audience perception, though. 

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I do agree that if the show cared about rehabilitating the newbies, there should’ve been a bigger effort to change the tone, whether that meant the EPs talking to the actors, or the writers including stage directions in the script. 

Oh, that's what I mean too. Not laying solely on the director, but if the EPs mentioned, "hey, we kind of need to get people to like them a bit more," the directors could have picked up on a tonal issue. It's an overall issue of no effort to change them stemming from up top. No one thinks they need to change them or that the newbies even matter.

[tennisgurl]

I really hate to blame the performers, but I think they were either given poor direction, or have just been playing this Civil Meh badly, because they come off as so harsh, even when the dialogue could be made more sympathetic, that it makes the audience impossible to like them. Like, when Felicity and Diggle went to see Rene at the hospital, I think they could have played it more shell shocked or sad, instead of angry and smug. Really, that seems to be all they're capable of emoting lately. Angry and smug. Even when I should have felt for Dianh, when Vince died, I didnt get devastated from her, just pissy and smug, like always. I dont know if the actors are getting bad direction, or they really do think that NTA are awesome and wonderful and OTA are the real monsters, and thats how they're playing it? 

Of course, the shitty writing and nonsensical dialogue and character motivations cant have helped either. This has just been an ill conceived mess from the start, and when the show realized how badly it was coming off, they should have changed things, or at least told the actors to stop smirking in every damn scene. But they haven't, they've just doubled down. Its the ultimate tell, not show. They saw that NTA has a point and arent the bad guys, but we dont SEE that. The audience is calling a spade a spade, and they dont like it. Its killing what has otherwise been a decent season, and taking us back to the dreaded times of the Olicity break up and Cousin Oliver.

[statsgirl]

It feels like the actors are only playing the top note rather than making their characters complex and multi-layered.

Is it possible that EK has forgotten that Curtis fed tracking nanites to Felicity a season ago?  Or does he just not care?  The audience certainly hasn't forgotten.  Even more bewildering is expecting us to put equal blame on Oliver for fighting Rene and Rene for attacking him with an ax.

[EmilyBettFan]

On April 26, 2018 at 11:36 AM, way2interested said:

Still, that can be changed from the director who also still can choose himself/herself to change the line if it doesn't work. It just tells me it's not a priority to make the newbies look good even after the backlash. At this point they are just trying to cover up the mistake by tying it back to a bigger plot and Oliver's own self-perception issues rather than actually trying to make the newbies look good out of all of this. Felicity apologizing and Curtis still snarking afterwards may not have been caught simply because they wanted to breeze through to get to Felicity expressing her feelings to set up future episodes and how Curtis looked never even mattered to them. I still think they care a bit, since very quickly after 614 the newbies faded into unrelated background subplots and Rene, the instigator, was gone for 5 episodes, but imo this just shows to me that they ultimately don't care about the newbies too much. They like them, sure, but see them ultimately as support for plots.

He was gone thank God but they had the other two newbs be even more insufferable with claiming how Oliver destroyed Rene's life. I'm so tired of these three dweebs.

[TrueMyth]

On 4/1/2018 at 3:55 PM, Primal Slayer said:

Laurels first trainer in the first half of Season 3. Former vigilante known as Wildcat. 

You know, I hadn't thought of it until now, but I'm now extremely bitter that we will never get to see someone called Wildcat ripping into someone called Wild Dog. Aurgh.  I don't think it's the reason for the show's decline, but I really miss when Oliver was the only vigilante in town.

[DeadZeus]

One thing worth noting is that Oliver Always had Diggle and Felicity, true... But if you look at S1 and S2 you will notice diggle rarely went in the field with Oliver. He was mostly backup and only went out with Oliver on rare occasion. Dno when this push to have him out there 24/7 started. Really hope S7 focuses on the core team again. I kinda hate the term "team". "Our team is in shambles" "Their team isn't doing so well..." It sounds so petty and childish...

[SmallScreenDiva]

9 hours ago, DeadZeus said:

One thing worth noting is that Oliver Always had Diggle and Felicity, true... But if you look at S1 and S2 you will notice diggle rarely went in the field with Oliver. He was mostly backup and only went out with Oliver on rare occasion. Dno when this push to have him out there 24/7 started. Really hope S7 focuses on the core team again. I kinda hate the term "team". "Our team is in shambles" "Their team isn't doing so well..." It sounds so petty and childish...

I don't know if it was rare, he was definitely with Oliver during big moments and at least close by as backup. I think the push began after Season 2 when the show started adding more masks and people were like "if Oliver needs backup, Diggle is right there!" I mean, early Season 3 it was Oliver and Roy out in the field. So to avoid accusations of Digg getting sidelined (which were true) they sent him out there with the masks until they finally gave him a "suit" of his own. 

[Starfish35]

Yeah I think it started with Roy.  I mean, I loved Roy, but I think there was this thing of why could Roy be out there with Oliver, when Diggle, who had far more training and experience, was left back at base?  It didn't make sense.  

[way2interested]

For additional bts reasons, wasn't DR having back issues that season? I remember that there was a past season where it got bad for him and that's one of the reasons why they sidelined his character for action scenes.

[statsgirl]

Remember s3 when new fighter Laurel went out there with Roy and Diggle was sidelined to being back in the lair on comms?

[SmallScreenDiva]

23 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Remember s3 when new fighter Laurel went out there with Roy and Diggle was sidelined to being back in the lair on comms?

The rise of the Black Canary trilogy that AK was touting and MG was all like "Trilogy what? No, no, we're not doing that" LOL!

[Primal Slayer]

18 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Remember s3 when new fighter Laurel went out there with Roy and Diggle was sidelined to being back in the lair on comms?

Good times.

[Starfish35]

20 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Remember s3 when new fighter Laurel went out there with Roy and Diggle was sidelined to being back in the lair on comms?

Yep, although I'd temporarily repressed it. Thanks. ;)

[SmallScreenDiva]

30 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Not if the argument is "It's stuck with characters it has to sell despite the fact they have no natural or relevant place on the show." They were forced to add CH, they added Slade, they had Laurel, these were characters they had to sell regardless of their relationships to Oliver, with Laurel and Roy not even incorporated into Oliver's team way into their introductions. They've always had to work with characters that don't easily incorporate into Oliver's story since the beginning, so I don't think that that's the central reason of anything being bad (plus the idea that it is regarded that s1 got better and that s2 started well, strayed, and then ended strong, while I agree with the break down, is also acknowledging that there's been no consistent "good" Arrow, unless 1b-2a counts as consistent, to which then even 2 episodes they were stuck with selling Barry and Roy and Laurel). 

I do agree with the idea that straying from Oliver is where the show derails, since that encapsulates the idea that straying from Oliver's grounded redemption story into a magic, superpowered, team-up story is where the show derails. The messiness then comes from trying to balance the characters either pushed or introduced to them with Oliver's story, and it overflows everything else. Although how to keep the show centered on their main character while giving the actor more time off is a mess for them as well.

I guess I just give sympathy since I feel like a bunch of the choices are things out of their hands, but I also understand where it is their fault. They are the ones writing unflattering moments for these characters and making them somewhat of a drag on the show more than they intended, but then at the end of the day if they have to use these characters and they actually like them, I can't necessarily fault them for wanting to use them. Balancing is just their weakest point and having new characters they have/innocently want to use mixed with the desire to still center the show on Oliver mixed with giving the older cast time off mixed with higher up demands mixed with who knows what else makes it all a mess. 

But Laurel, Slade and Roy did have ties to Oliver and were relatively relevant to him from the very beginning — even if Roy's ties were with Thea first. I mean, Laurel is irrelevant now after they dropped her as love interest and they moved away from having the Arrow's cases/villain of the week come from the courts so her continued presence is hurting Arrow. So I'm not quite getting the comparison with the newbies and these characters. 

Believe me, I understand the rock and hard place the writers are in between. But I stand by my original assertion. Having characters like BS and the newbies who have no real ties to Oliver is profoundly hurting the show and nothing Beth or the new writers will do will be able to fix this fundamental problem. Especially in the case of the newbies, they've been trying to sell these characters for two seasons now and they've only made them worse. 

[way2interested]

9 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

But Laurel, Slade and Roy did have ties to Oliver and were relatively relevant to him from the very beginning — even if Roy's ties were with Thea first. I mean, Laurel is irrelevant now after they dropped her as love interest and they moved away from having the Arrow's cases/villain of the week come from the courts so her continued presence is hurting Arrow. So I'm not quite getting the comparison with the newbies and these characters.

It was kind of messy, but my point was that Laurel and Roy mostly, characters they were stuck with, were separated in their own subplots without Oliver (I don't count being tied to Thea as giving Roy a tie to Oliver) for significant lengths and yet s1 and s2 are considered "good" Arrow. Now the newbies are not as connected to Oliver as they were back then but it's considered "bad" Arrow. Both of them are bad, yet certain seasons are regarded better than others, so I was saying there are reasons beyond just tagging on characters not connected to Oliver that makes something "bad," since you originally argued that the idea that they have the characters they have to use is the reason why they can't be good ever again. The problem more comes from moving away from Oliver's journey, which looks like we both agree on that. That being said,

9 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Having characters like BS and the newbies who have no real ties to Oliver is profoundly hurting the show and nothing Beth or the new writers will do will be able to fix this fundamental problem.

It does hurt the show, but I don't think it necessarily kills it or makes it fundamentally unwatchable or anything. 5b's been well-regarded with these characters who only had slightly less background with Oliver than they do now. Pushing them to the background like they did in 5b is something they can do that could balance it out, but it something they are ultimately stuck with and have to try to work with. I thought 5b was good (minus 513-half of 515 which I didn't hate but just thought dragged), so they can partially, but it's a matter if they are able to with BS in the mix, and possibly still trying to give the main actors breaks and barring any injuries the cast might have again etc.

Edited May 7, 2018 by way2interested

[Featherhat]

I don't mind Roy being brought in for Thea, she needed something else other than being a brat/random other sister to Oliver plots and I think he worked a lot more than LL did within the team. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

30 minutes ago, way2interested said:

It does hurt the show, but I don't think it necessarily kills it or makes it fundamentally unwatchable or anything. 5b's been well-regarded with these characters who only had slightly less background with Oliver than they do now. Pushing them to the background like they did in 5b is something they can do that could balance it out, but it something they are ultimately stuck with and have to try to work with. I thought 5b was good (minus 513-half of 515 which I didn't hate but just thought dragged), so they can partially, but it's a matter if they are able to with BS in the mix, and possibly still trying to give the main actors breaks and barring any injuries the cast might have again etc.

But see, if the only way to make these characters palatable as they did in 5B was to push them in the background, to reduce their presence that only serves to underscore how irrelevant they are to the show, what a waste of space and time they are. 

[way2interested]

7 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

But see, if the only way to make these characters palatable as they did in 5B was to push them in the background, to reduce their presence that only serves to underscore how irrelevant they are to the show, what a waste of space and time they are. 

Yeah, but if they literally can't get rid of them (or if they like them), what can they do? 

*Not snark btw, I think we're pretty much on a similar page*

Edited May 7, 2018 by way2interested

[tennisgurl]

The weird thing is, by the time this whole Civil Meh began, I was actually warming to the Newbies. I still wouldn't mind if they all went away, but I thought they worked as kind of superheroes in training crew, or as a B Squad, who might one day leave the team to do their own thing, maybe in a different city, once they got more experience. Like Oliver was running a kind of superhero grad school to help people with powers or an interest, so they could get training and connections instead of making bad choices or getting themselves killed. I always felt like they were disconnected from OTA in ways that few other mainstays were (Roy was Thea's boyfriend and Oliver's first protege, Laurel was his childhood friend/former girlfriend, etc.), but they did end up settling into the team more, and building some connections, and while they could be annoying, and took more screen time than I wanted, I did start liking them more, and didnt really mind them being around, especially as back up/comic relief. I still missed Rory Reagan, who was actually a unique character with an interesting backstory and a cool power, and was definitely the best Newbie, and was baffled that we lost him and kept Curtis and Rene, but I made my peace with them.

And then, the Civil Meh happened, and they almost instantly transformed fully into self riotous, hypocritical, selfish, assholes, and now I loath the sight of them. They took their worst qualities up to 11, and downplayed anything I once liked about them. Even now that they're clearly trying to make the Newbies more likable, the damage has been done. They have just been so awful, and sucked up so much of the season with their bullshit, I just have no interest in them, beyond getting their asses kicked all the way to Ivy Town. If they cant give me that, my best case is the Newbies making peace with OTA, then going to another city to fight crime, and are never seen again.  

[KenyaJ]

I wish the newbies would go away, but if they stay, they really should continue being their own team. Even if they make nice with Oliver again, the underlying issue between them will still exist. The newbies complained in 609 and 610 that Oliver considered them second-class citizens compared to Felicity and Diggle. And they weren't wrong, but that's not something that's ever going to change, unless Diggle dies or Felicity and Oliver divorce (and probably not even then, if 417 through 519 are any indication). They are never, ever going to be on the same level of importance to the team or Oliver as Felicity or Diggle, and unless they finally accept and understand that, why go back?

[statsgirl]

If the n00bs stay, I think the only way I could take it is if they form their own team. But that's a lot of money for their salaries if they're only tangential to the show.  And I really don't want them to be the focus of any more episodes or even plots to justify the money spent on them.

[Guest]

Setting aside the fact that KA is completely wrong for the part, I feel like the big bad part of this season might've been better if it had been switched? And by that I mean we could've started off the season with Diaz in the original Cayden James role - set up as the big bad - but then much later on it becomes apparent that the guy is just too fucking dumb to be doing this himself and so out steps Cayden James as the man pulling all the strings. We wouldn't have needed to see CJ that much, maybe here and there, but I feel like it would've made more sense. Because at his heart Diaz is just a dumb street thug and I don't see how he has everyone so afraid or how he has everyone in his pockets. I don't buy it. 

Just another thing to be bitter about!

[way2interested]

Either that or actually have it as a team of villains like they initially promoted.

[Guest]

Yeah. I thought every team member was supposed to have their own nemesis too but that basically only turned out to be a nemesis for Dinah and one for Oliver. Annoying.

[lemotomato]

I’m bitter that there were no shirtless scenes this season, and the salmon ladder didn’t get a single appearance before its untimely demise last night. RIP, Sally. Thanks for the memories. ?

Edited May 11, 2018 by lemotomato