Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[tv echo]

This is in response to a discussion that started in the Social Media thread...

About a year ago, the show's ratings dropped significantly after 415.* IMO, that drop could've been attributed to a perfect storm of factors, including the BMD/Olicity breakup. Subsequently, the EPs must've discussed why it happened. They might've also reacted to a very vocal minority's hate mail/social media posts (just like they did to hate mail about Sara in S2).  We don't know.  All we know is that we got this version of the show in S5, where the EPs course-corrected a few elements but screwed up other, major elements.

(* I think that S4A and S4B need to be treated separately, using 415 as the demarcation point. S4 debuted with high ratings.  IIRC, S4A was generally well-received and maintained good ratings, with the only common complaint being that there was too much set-up for LoT. It was S4B that drew major complaints from all over the fandom and media.)

If I think the show is going in the wrong direction, then having the ratings drop is like confirmation that I'm not alone in that thought. I'm not happy or gloating about it, but sad for the show. (I'm still watching for the few characters that I do like.) However, I'm also hoping that the ratings drop will compel the EPs to take a good look at what they're doing. Of course, they may again make changes that I don't like or agree with, or they may do nothing to change their current plans.

Or, they may again misinterpret the reason(s) for the ratings decline and make worse changes. For example, here's a scary stat that the EPs could easily misinterpret: the three highest rated episodes of this current season so far were all directed by Bamford (501, 502 and 508).

Bottom line, though, I think that any changes made in response to the even lower ratings won't be reflected this season, but next season.

Edited February 28, 2017 by tv echo

[ladylaw99]

I know nothing about how ratings work.  I do feel bad that the ratings have declined, but I only feel bad for the actors and crew who put in the work.  The writers are a different story.  They have checked out because they have other shows/toys now. I often wonder what Arrow would be like if there was no Flash etc.  I feel like they decided this year to throw things together whether it makes sense or not.

The way I look at it is if you write crap, people will change the channel and not tune in.  I am here for Felicity's story but even that is falling short.  I am not a patient person so the whole Prometheus story is now irritating me.  As for reporter - no comment.

Will ratings go up, maybe or maybe not.  People will stick around if the stories are good, if there is character growth, if there is some kind of emotion to get invested in.  It can't be just about plot.  I need to feel something for these characters again.  I remember when Moira was killed I was devastated (I had not seen any spoilers), I was invested in the Queen family, Slade and Oliver's relationship, how their relationship went from friends to enemies (didn't like that it was because of Shado), the growing relationship between Diggle, Felicity and Oliver, how Oliver had to learn to trust again, it all worked for me. Oliver was growing as a character and now he is regressed so much in my opinion that I dislike him. I not interested in Oliver learning the same lessons he learned seasons ago.  I need him to keep growing and learn new lessons about life.

I think these writers have thrown in the towel which is sad.  I always thought Arrow had potential.

[MaisyDaisy]

It's almost impossible to win viewers back, that's why when Arrow bucked the trend of ever decreasing ratings season to season, it was such a huge deal, because it's not the norm that a show increases. 

There is an argument for 'they have done it before' and they obviously thought they could do it again with the changes in this season, but they picked the wrong things to neglect/focus on.

[thegirlsleuth]

I don't watch the Flash, but from reading the descriptions, it seems like the did have a major sweeps event, with speedsters, killer sentient gorillas, and an engagement.  Arrow's sweeps event has been Oliver fighting with his sketchy girlfriend, Dinah getting an apartment, and a very special episode with the full back story of a guest star we either hate/don't care about.  Coupled with the lack of promo, it sort of falls flat by comparison.

Edited March 1, 2017 by thegirlsleuth

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, thegirlsleuth said:

Arrow's sweeps event has been Oliver fighting with his sketchy girlfriend, Dinah getting an apartment, and a very special episode with the full back story of a guest star we either hate/don't care about

How can anyone not love that?

It really feels like the EPs and writers have got complacent and figured that their audience is loyal and will stick around while they play with whatever shiny toy catches their attention. I hope the dropping ratings and viewership lets them realize they're wrong before it's too late

[calliope1975]

Oops. Wrong thread. Nothing to see here. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by calliope1975

[Sunshine]

I know sweeps is all about the romance :-) Hook up, Break Up, Reconciliation, Kidnapping all in 4 episodes.  Too bad no one seems to care. 

[Morrigan2575]

Damnit Arrow you brought me back into the Bitterness thread!

OK here's my issue with S5B and it's not much different from S4B. The writers/producers are doing the exact same thing with Susan that they did with Samantha and still NOT getting why it doesn't work.

See, here's the thing, plots are fine and I understand that Arrow will always sacrifice character for plot. However, I don't understand and, can't accept when you sacrifice character for a nonsensical plot that does nothing to support the show.

In 4 you had the stupid BMD ultimatum that's only purpose was to break up Olicity. Fine whatever let's not use the billion logical reasons that they could have broken up. No, let's go with manufactured angst for laziness sake. This way we don't have to actually spend time on it because it was never about the characters or their relationship and ALWAYS about a plot point. Fine!

But given how the audience and media reacted to the whole thing. Given how stubborn MG was about how great Samantha was and only stupid shippers couldn't see what a brilliant story this was. Given that after S4 the idiot actually admits that they were stupid and, too stuck on their tent poles to realize the story wasn't working. You'd think after ALL that, they would have Learned!

So now in S5 they're repeating the same patterns. They're so locked into their plot (and that's all Susan is) that they can't see why it's failing. Why people think Oliver is an idiot. Why Oliver with Susan make no sense. Because it doesn't need to!

Oliver with Susan has never been about the characters or the relationship. It has always been about some dumbass plot point of either making her a pawn, a victim, a traitor (at the hands of Chase) or worst of all (IMO) a hero that validates Oliver's belief in himself (by not betraying Oliver). 

However and this is the big screw up. Because they never cared how the character or relationship was perceived just this end goal of 15/16. Then they didn't bother to explain why Oliver wanted to be with Susan. Why did Oliver want so badly to get back with Susan? Character wise, no reason given. Show wise? Because Chase had to go after Oliver's girlfriend the way Oliver took Chase's girlfriend...it's so meta!

This is the continuing problem with this show (and I pretty much realized it After S2). They're so focused on their end game, the final 3-5 episodes that they forget that it's the journey not the destination that matters.

I'm beginning to think that Arrow is not a show designed to be watched weekly, it's a show designed to be binged because ultimately the only thing that matters is the first and last 5 episodes.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[tangerine95]

Yep basically all that. But I really don't get wasting this much time on this plot. Susan has been around since 5. 03 i think and her and Oliver have been dating pretty much since 5. 07, they've focused 2 sweeps on her and now made her a clifhanger for 5. 15.  Susan is still a random character that they did nothing to make likeable and actually have fan favorites like Felicity and Thea hating her and she's put in the automatically to be hated place of stall for olicity so why do they think it will matter to people if she does or doesn't betray Oliver. In order to care about stuff like that people need to be invested in the character and relationship and I don't see how they think people will invest in this. 

[bijoux]

19 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm beginning to think that Arrow is not a show designed to be watched weekly, it's a show designed to be binged because ultimately the only thing that matters is the first and last 5 episodes.

This is the biggest lesson. I'm actually considering letting the remaining episodes pile up and watching them all after the season ends. I watched practically the first three seasons that way and it worked for me better than this does currently.

[LeighAn]

Very good post @Morrigan2575 It's sucks because the plotty plottiness of this arch will end up being meaningless in the long run.

Also they spend way to much time on things that don't matter and then end up rushing the things that do.

I do want Arrow to surprise me one season by not sucking in its middle section.  

[dtissagirl]

You can even trace what they changed from the plot driven shit of last season to the plot driven shit of this season.

Last season the BMD was stupid as fuck, but there were ~a lot of feelings~ involved in everything. There was O/F getting engaged, a secret kid, then Felicity almost dying and being paralyzed, then kid getting kidnapped, etc. Was it all plotty and garbage fire? Yes. But they bothered to establish emotional parameters for everything.

And then these morons apparently decided that it was ~using emotions~ that created the dumpster fire. So they got rid of it.

This season? There's nothing emotional about anything at all. Oliver's been a constipated robot for how many episodes now? 10-ish? Felicity is repressing everything she feels, Diggle is so sidelined they haven't written anything for him to feel about, Thea just got a leeetle emotion going on in these last two episodes, but she's just been put on a bus so that's over.

And really, you can't do plot driven shit without the emotional beats, because THAT IS WHEN YOUR AUDIENCE STARTS TO REALIZE YOUR WRITING IS SHIT. The only way plot driven crap works is when it also ~emotionally manipulates~ the audience into getting engaged with the characters. This season? They removed the narrative artifice that hooks people into plot driven stories from the show.

There's dumb, then there's Oliver, then there's the Arrow writers room.

[Chaser]

14 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Yep basically all that. But I really don't get wasting this much time on this plot. Susan has been around since 5. 03 i think and her and Oliver have been dating pretty much since 5. 07, they've focused 2 sweeps on her and now made her a clifhanger for 5. 15.  Susan is still a random character that they did nothing to make likeable and actually have fan favorites like Felicity and Thea hating her and she's put in the automatically to be hated place of stall for olicity so why do they think it will matter to people if she does or doesn't betray Oliver. In order to care about stuff like that people need to be invested in the character and relationship and I don't see how they think people will invest in this. 

I don't know why but this is really the part that pisses me off. I've accepted Oliver was going to be an idiot in this relationship and they were going to drag it out. I was annoyed with that but Arrow is Arrow. But This?!!! Asking me to care about her life for the big cliffhanger? Asking me to understand how it hits Oliver? Why in the world would they think the audience would care about any of this. It makes no sense. 

[benteen]

I'm bitter about the writing on this show.  The writers continue to write their characters to fit their scripts as opposed to writing their scripts to fit their characters.  Latest example is Quentin not being furious with Thea for suggesting that they pin the blame on Billy Malone, a good cop who was murdered.  I don't care how much closer Quentin has gotten with Thea and Team Arrow, he would never agree to go through with that and would have threatened to quit the team and the Mayor's office for good.  But no, because the script demands it, he says nothing about it and seems to give at least passive support for it.

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

You can even trace what they changed from the plot driven shit of last season to the plot driven shit of this season.

Last season the BMD was stupid as fuck, but there were ~a lot of feelings~ involved in everything. There was O/F getting engaged, a secret kid, then Felicity almost dying and being paralyzed, then kid getting kidnapped, etc. Was it all plotty and garbage fire? Yes. But they bothered to establish emotional parameters for everything.

And then these morons apparently decided that it was ~using emotions~ that created the dumpster fire. So they got rid of it.

This season? There's nothing emotional about anything at all. Oliver's been a constipated robot for how many episodes now? 10-ish? Felicity is repressing everything she feels, Diggle is so sidelined they haven't written anything for him to feel about, Thea just got a leeetle emotion going on in these last two episodes, but she's just been put on a bus so that's over.

And really, you can't do plot driven shit without the emotional beats, because THAT IS WHEN YOUR AUDIENCE STARTS TO REALIZE YOUR WRITING IS SHIT. The only way plot driven crap works is when it also ~emotionally manipulates~ the audience into getting engaged with the characters. This season? They removed the narrative artifice that hooks people into plot driven stories from the show.

There's dumb, then there's Oliver, then there's the Arrow writers room.

Pretty much this. I wrote something similar in the social media thread. In season 3 Raylicity was terrible but at least we got mopey sad panda eyes Oliver talking about dying alone if he can't be with Felicity and Oliver and Felicity having angsty longing looks/talks to offset the stupidity.

If they added a little emotional depth I think this season would be just a little more watchable.... but emotions are bad because.....

[tangerine95]

7 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

You can even trace what they changed from the plot driven shit of last season to the plot driven shit of this season.

Last season the BMD was stupid as fuck, but there were ~a lot of feelings~ involved in everything. There was O/F getting engaged, a secret kid, then Felicity almost dying and being paralyzed, then kid getting kidnapped, etc. Was it all plotty and garbage fire? Yes. But they bothered to establish emotional parameters for everything.

And then these morons apparently decided that it was ~using emotions~ that created the dumpster fire. So they got rid of it.

This season? There's nothing emotional about anything at all. Oliver's been a constipated robot for how many episodes now? 10-ish? Felicity is repressing everything she feels, Diggle is so sidelined they haven't written anything for him to feel about, Thea just got a leeetle emotion going on in these last two episodes, but she's just been put on a bus so that's over.

And really, you can't do plot driven shit without the emotional beats, because THAT IS WHEN YOUR AUDIENCE STARTS TO REALIZE YOUR WRITING IS SHIT. The only way plot driven crap works is when it also ~emotionally manipulates~ the audience into getting engaged with the characters. This season? They removed the narrative artifice that hooks people into plot driven stories from the show.

There's dumb, then there's Oliver, then there's the Arrow writers room.

Exactly, they just took emotion out of every single thing but continued writing like they always did. And I'll never understand that professional writers think you can avoid emotion when writing a TV show. That's what its about, the point is to make people feel something for these characters but that's not really possible when they don't seem to be allowed to express emotions themselves. 

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, tangerine95 said:

Exactly, they just took emotion out of every single thing but continued writing like they always did. And I'll never understand that professional writers think you can avoid emotion when writing a TV show. That's what its about, the point is to make people feel something for these characters but that's not really possible when they don't seem to be allowed to express emotions themselves. 

Then when they do throw some emotion in its used to justify the noobies by having the core characters share the majority of their feelings or emotions with characters the audience doesn't care about. 

But cest la vie. I'm in grin and bare it mode and if by the end of this season I haven't at least got reaffirmation of OTA and Olicity reunited I'll weigh up whether I like Oliver Felicity and Diggle individually enough to continue next season to go through more of this. Im an incredibly shallow tv watcher haha.

[bijoux]

10 minutes ago, benteen said:

I'm bitter about the writing on this show.  The writers continue to write their characters to fit their scripts as opposed to writing their scripts to fit their characters.  Latest example is Quentin not being furious with Thea for suggesting that they pin the blame on Billy Malone, a good cop who was murdered.  I don't care how much closer Quentin has gotten with Thea and Team Arrow, he would never agree to go through with that and would have threatened to quit the team and the Mayor's office for good.  But no, because the script demands it, he says nothing about it and seems to give at least passive support for it.

My reaction to Thea's proposal was to (in this order) laugh, then think you're crazy, and finally, I love you. But I completely agree that this would have been the right reaction for Lance and he would have been right in voicing it.

[SmallScreenDiva]

The worst part about all this is that it's not gonna change, not as long as Guggenheim is in charge of that writers room. I've never seen this much incompetent writing ever. I mean, when you watch a series for a long time you get that not every episode is a home run but Arrow's been grounding out and striking out almost every ep, IMO. And the sweeps episodes were just ugly. 

[Chaser]

S3 had loads of problems but I was looking forward to S4 because of Olicity.

S4 had loads of problems but I was looking forward to S5 because Laurel was killed off.

S5 is killing me. The last few episodes could be the best they have ever put out and everything could make sense, etc, etc and I still don't know if I would watch S6 at this point.

[insomniadreams88]

I'm starting to feel like I maybe should have appreciated Billy just a bit - or at least not called him Mayo. The character and Tyler Ritter deserved better. That is what the show has done to me. (I'm not saying I want him back or with Felicity. I still maintain that they could have just kept Felicity and Billy as friends and not much would have had to be different.)

[statsgirl]

On 2017-03-02 at 8:23 AM, Chaser said:

I don't know why but this is really the part that pisses me off. I've accepted Oliver was going to be an idiot in this relationship and they were going to drag it out. I was annoyed with that but Arrow is Arrow. But This?!!! Asking me to care about her life for the big cliffhanger? Asking me to understand how it hits Oliver? Why in the world would they think the audience would care about any of this. It makes no sense. 

I care deeply about whether Susan lives or dies in the big cliffhanger. 

If she dies, that increases my viewing pleasure 1000%.  (I don't think that's what they were going for though.)

[MaisyDaisy]

I think the fact that people are equating Oliver/Susan and the bridges they are burning moving it from plot point to plot point, to the disaster that was the BMD should be ringing alarm bells for the show runners, because they can't afford to lose another big chunk of viewers.

[statsgirl]

It really feels like the show runners don't care any more. They've got their season 6 so apres moi le deluge.

None of EPs or writers are on twitter much any more about the show. WM and Ben Sokolov tweet more about politics than they do about Arrow.

[leopardprint]

I also think the show runners are more focused on other projects. It's like they start with a good idea and then it goes totally off the rails because no one is keeping watch.  The reporter storyline is such a bizarre failure. I think she's supposed to be a kindred spirit to Oliver in that her version of "do anything to protect the city" is really unethical reporting and that's what he sees in her? She's just utterly pointless. Also it's ok for her to go to extreme lengths but when Thea and Felicity do it they get ethics mansplainations. 

[Mellowyellow]

Can they just phone it in next season and give me random Olicity scenes if they don't care anymore?

Olicity house hunting

Olicity grocery shopping

Olicity training their pet dog

And then fight some random villain at night

Surely the ratings won't drop that much more! 

[Hiveminder]

18 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Can they just phone it in next season and give me random Olicity scenes if they don't care anymore?

Olicity house hunting

Olicity grocery shopping

Olicity training their pet dog

And then fight some random villain at night

Surely the ratings won't drop that much more! 

They'd probably go up. 

[lemotomato]

59 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

None of EPs or writers are on twitter much any more about the show.

Considering how the majority of the responses to their tweets about anything is abuse and insults about the show, I'm not surprised they don't like to talk about the show anymore.

Edited March 4, 2017 by lemotomato

[statsgirl]

I think there is a lot of frustration but I don't think it's abuse and insults.

Oscar Balderama tweeted at the end of the last episode " And boom goes the dynamite. "  There are 25 replies and most express their frustration at the Susan storyline  One did say it was the worst episode of the show but most are   "Yes. You blew up Oliver. Where is the Oliver Queen I rooted for? I empathized with?" There were a couple of positive posts.

Why would Balderama tweet about Chase grabbing Susan for his only tweet about the episode?  Are the writers so out of touch that they think this is what people are going to take away when they leave the episode?  It's like WM talking about "genuine feelings" between Oliver and Susan. She and SA would both do better to talk about how Oliver is really trying to make this relationship work after his failures instead of trying to sell real feelings or other things the audience is too smart to believe.

[EmilyBettFan]

They better be prepared for that .4 because shit ending with Susan crap will take them there. Plus the divorce. Who actually cares about Paul and Curtis?

[kismet]

In addition to being bitter that OQ is fighting for Susan in a way he never fought for FS, I am bitter that he is fighting for this mayoral gig in a way he never fought for his family's company or legacy. And by throwing TQ under the bus, they only highlight how everyone and everything outside of his family & friends is more important to him than what we have always been told has been a priority to him.

It started slowly in s3/4, with him being unwilling to return to SC in the flashbacks - but I forgave him because he was broken and wanted to fix himself. Also, he got tricked by Waller and so he got stuck on the island again. And for whatever reason felt he owed Poppy, so off to Russia we went. Noble choices all things considered.

Him losing the company in s3 was not a surprise, but him not be willing to fight for it in any capacity really bummed me out. But I get RP needed a plot. And apparently rival tech companies at war with each other was not sensational enough. Ok, so for plot simplicity I went along with it. Besides FS was saving the company, so at least I got that fantasy for a bit. And OQ seemed to want to be noble in the daylight, how could I take that away from him, especially when they mentioned his Mother never being able to be mayor. So it was a different legacy he was living up to. But mission accomplished, he is no better at being mayor than any of the others.

Frankly, I've never been all that attached to Star City, as much as I have been the Queen Family, so maybe it's my fault. But I really don't see beyond comics, why it is so important that OQ fight to maintain his Mayoral gig. It brings no gravitas or scintillating plot lines to the show. It's boring to watch. It creates some big conflicts of interest. And largely sucks up time. It's not a life outside of the lair, its just poorly written exposition scenes on a different set. At least when he was at QC, he was helping deliver his family's destiny & redemption in the professional world and the mean streets. It was double duty and it paid lucratively so that he could fund his nighttime expeditions. He's on a civil salary now, with I'm assuming a bankrupt budget considering they have had to pay to repair/prevent the Apocalypses 4 years in a row. No way SC has functioning budget to actually pay good salary or benefits.

So I guess, I'm supposed to be excited by OQ's growth that he finally is learning to fight for important things. The only problem is he is choosing all the wrong things to fight for. It's a little bit too much effort, way too late. It's like he found his lottery ticket with all the right numbers, but it was for the wrong date.

The only saving grace via my headspace, is that perhaps this means that next year he will fight to regain his Family's company. He will fight to get back FS. He will fight to have TQ take her rightful place as Queen Badass with a good heart, now that Moira is no longer with us. That the trio will rule SC's as power family and use their power for good in the day and night. Perhaps more charity galas that TQ can throw. Perhaps a job for FS that shows her badassery in intelligence & tech, by letting her run the technical side of the company. And while we're at it, why not finally promote Dig to something beyond Bodyguard? That man has skills & expertise, surely they can find a role for him in a company like Queen Consolidated, or perhaps Queen Inc, as I think was rumored somewhere in one of the shows. It is TIME!!

I'm all for saving Star City, but I'm done with doing it through the Mayor's Office. I just really wish the show was also done with MayorOQ, and not bitterly wasting time having him fight for nothing important.

Edited March 4, 2017 by kismet

[statsgirl]

Sadly, I think that vision of Star City and the Queen family is more fanfic than anything they will ever do on the show.

And they like their shiny new toys too much.  Oliver as mayor in a relationship with Susan is the current shiny new toy and they don't understand how it's razing everything they have done before.

MG said that the one thing he regrets on past seasons is the BMD because they didn't give it enough time to play out properly.  It occurred to me that this is the reason we're stuck with Susan way too long.  They really have a problem learning the right lesson when their plotting blows up.

[kismet]

C'mon @statsgirl, let me have my headspace dreams & hope. :)

It's all I've got left good for the show. My little life vest as I bob along in the Sea of Bitterness and Despair that is Arrow now, waiting desperately for that rescue helicopter that's never coming.

They are totally going to Lucy me next season, but I want to dream a little for a little longer today that all is not lost. I'm fully prepared to "AAUGH", good grief :(.

Or another fitting ending clip for Arrow.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, kismet said:

In addition to being bitter that OQ is fighting for Susan in a way he never fought for FS, I am bitter that he is fighting for this mayoral gig in a way he never fought for his family's company or legacy. And by throwing TQ under the bus, they only highlight how everyone and everything outside of his family & friends is more important to him than what we have always been told has been a priority to him.

It started slowly in s3/4, with him being unwilling to return to SC in the flashbacks - but I forgave him because he was broken and wanted to fix himself. Also, he got tricked by Waller and so he got stuck on the island again. And for whatever reason felt he owed Poppy, so off to Russia we went. Noble choices all things considered.

Him losing the company in s3 was not a surprise, but him not be willing to fight for it in any capacity really bummed me out. But I get RP needed a plot. 

Well, Oliver killed Poppy's brother, though the brother was tricked into attacking and trying to kill Oliver by the redneck sounding mercenary. So he felt he had to help her as penance.

And since it seems crimes in Star City only take place during the night, you would think Oliver could run his company competently. Hell, Bruce Wayne is able to, and he's got MULTIPLE companies world wide and subsidiaries, and surrounds himself with competent people, so he can fight crime at night. But then again, Bruce Wayne is just smarter. In every iteration. Not that I'm biased or anything.?

[kismet]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Well, Oliver killed Poppy's brother, though the brother was tricked into attacking and trying to kill Oliver by the redneck sounding mercenary. So he felt he had to help her as penance.

And since it seems crimes in Star City only take place during the night, you would think Oliver could run his company competently. Hell, Bruce Wayne is able to, and he's got MULTIPLE companies world wide and subsidiaries, and surrounds himself with competent people, so he can fight crime at night. But then again, Bruce Wayne is just smarter. In every iteration. Not that I'm biased or anything.?

I remember the dead brother. But OQ has killed a lot of people's brothers, he didn't go on international quests to avenge their deaths. So there must have been another reason, the writers failed to explain or show us.

Agree that Bruce Wayne is smarter than OQ, especially this version of OQ. And don't get me even started on how bitter I am about the writers consistent need to make OQ dumber to make up for their inadequacies as writers. Seriously, a misguided injustice to both OQ and the audience.

[finnaire]

4 hours ago, kismet said:

I remember the dead brother. But OQ has killed a lot of people's brothers, he didn't go on international quests to avenge their deaths. So there must have been another reason, the writers failed to explain or show us.

I think he felt guilty for not being able to save Poppy and for ultimately having to put her down.  She also forced him into repeating his vow to avenge her before he snapped her neck.  I thought it was pretty clear why he felt he had to go to Russia.

[tv echo]

Oliver being Mayor is like Laurel being a D.A. - there's an inherent, unavoidable hypocrisy.

[dtissagirl]

5 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Oliver being Mayor is like Laurel being a D.A. - there's an inherent, unavoidable hypocrisy.

Agreed. I just wish the narrative addressed it. Vigilantes working law enforcement and/or politics is such a rich premise to do all sorts of interesting character work. But the feeling I get is these writers either ignore that hypocrisy, or worse -- are unaware of it.

[kismet]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, compared to The Flash, Arrow looked good in its treatment of female characters and that was after the sister swapping and Sara getting dropped on a dumpster.  The Flash is still pretty awful (this season Jessie Quick -the Flash of her home world-  supposedly happily sat out a round of crime fighting to admire someone else's engagement ring) but Arrow has lost so many of its female characters between season four and five that it's like they forgot how to write women.  I think the only reason Felicity is even half as well written as she (and it's far from perfect) is because of the constant scrutiny on the character.  They know people will complain LOUDLY if they muck up.  

Why wouldn't he?  Think of all the mutual praise they've shared for their work together this season.  And really, SA did probably some of the best work of his life emoting opposite of him as he was tortured.  It's pure bonus if he actually likes the guy, lol. 

I've really noticed a drop in the quality of female writing mid s3, definitely 4 and now 5. I'd even go so far to say that I think the main reason the writing was not perceived as bad for females before came down casting and acting talent. Because if I remove EBR's skill set from the script and just look at the script there are some major issues with how they have written the character. It started with Ray and has not gotten any better from a written perspective. Even this Helix plot line, does not highlight how special FS is, it just separates her plot from TA. I will agree that they do put more effort into her than others because of the constant scrutiny. But remove EBR from most of FS's plot line since mid s3 and I'm not sure how well written a character FS actually is. Her foundation has been amazing, but her actual episode to episode, season to season development has been inconsistent and shotty at times. And everything they give her, they take away for almost no reason.

However, similar things happen for me when I look at the other female characters, even in the early seasons. MQ was tremendously acted & written, but sacrificed very soon. TQ has always been used as a plot device. Even when I've enjoyed WH connection with the other actors, I have wondered why we keep TQ around when they have no idea what to do with her character besides give her whatever other males has passed up. I've been complaining about how they have failed LL since late s1. SL was also sacrificed when she was well cast for that role and had found a niche in the show. Even female villains have fallen flat after having shown potential early on. How about Nyssa, who went from strong female frenemy to insulting misogynistic plot device first for OQ in s3 & then MM in s4. The casting of Poppy, Susan & Evelyn, did nothing for the show- but it would have taken a massive talent to elevate the crappy & DOA writing for those characters.

So I begin to wonder, if I can so easily pick apart the female roles so easily, were they truly ever that much better at writing females than Flash? Or do they just better utilize Smoak & Mirrors better in Arrow? I mean I thought they were better in early seasons, because the writing was not as obvious or cliched as it has become, but I might have been wrong. And I do believe that most of the female cast on Arrow has always elevated the material far beyond the script. But now I think that the Arrow writers give the illusion of writing better female roles. But when you break it down there's just not much there. Because, I've noticed that I have far more complaints building up for far longer regarding their treatment than I initially remembered. It's definitely better than Flash, but I do not believe that Arrow is or ever was the beacon of good writing of female characters.

Quote

And yet his wife was half of the creative team behind Agent Carter.  Can we have her come audit his show for a while?  It might not be great for his marriage but could do wonders for us viewers.  

Yeah, I wonder about that a lot. I mean I totally can see how they might have met and fell in love, they seem to have a shared well of interests. But I do wonder how their marriage sustains itself with some of the things that comes out of MG's mouth. Unless, a lot of it is for show, publicity & fan pandering. I can see MG being the type of guy who pre/post interview says honey ~ disregard most of what I said in there, it was not what I believe - just what needed to be said for whatever stupid reason he believes at the time.

[bijoux]

I just randomly remembered Sara Diggle and whatever happened to some great moments she partook in? Did they even happen?

Like Oliver seeing everything he didn't know he wanted when she was born.

Or all these.

They actually used that child and wisely. What have we ever gotten from JJ? Rene being randomly the only one who thought of bringing him to Dig for his birthday and some mention of failed fishing lessons? 

[leopardprint]

@bijoux, it's especially glaring in light of all the fatherhood anvils dropped all over this season but it's another point that this season really made Oliver the center of almost everything to the detriment of the show. There should have been a fatherhood moment with Diggle in the island, FFS! 

Also, Baby Sara Forever! FU Barry! Never forget! 

[kismet]

Thanks @Bijoux for the memories!! Sara Diggle was the best. I think when I look back on my experience with Arrow and when I truly lost faith in the showrunners to deliver a quality show that I want to watch it will be when they decided to erase Sara Diggle for no good reason. I get that they wanted to have Flashpoint have resonance on every show, but they could have picked a million other options. And most glaringly, they could have just had Diggle have another kid or had Sara Diggle die as a result of FP. Death would have been better than erasure. Have we even see JJ this season? Does anyone care about him? The Diggles grieving the loss of SD or never fully recovering from her loss, might have made for some good side melodrama. The Diggles' marriage having some cracks in it as a result of her death, certainly would have been better than just because of Argus. Plus, Dig & Quentin could have bonded over being parents who lost children. And I agree it would have been nice with all the emphasis on fatherhood this season.

I may have been disappointed with a lot of the showrunners and writers choices for the last few seasons. But erasing Sara Diggle from existence really made me question whether this was a show I wanted to be part of. The answer is turning out more no than yes. I question whether I can trust the runners/writers to actually deliver a quality storyline in line with what I believe the show to be about and why I fell in love with it so long ago. I ultimately think it was the turning point for me to decide quitting or losing the show would not be something that either TPTB or myself would care about. Their lack of insight into why it was so appalling to erase her character from the show, really revealed what type of showrunners/writers they are and the image was not pretty. I know TPTB and writers do not care about my viewership. I am no longer a valued fan, that is what Sara Diggle's erasure revealed to me. I might as well be erased, and it looks like they are succeeding. I barely watched any Flarrowverse this year. I'm still deciding on whether I will be back for Arrow next season.

[EmeraldArcher]

7 hours ago, kismet said:

I may have been disappointed with a lot of the showrunners and writers choices for the last few seasons. But erasing Sara Diggle from existence really made me question whether this was a show I wanted to be part of. The answer is turning out more no than yes. [ . . . ] Their lack of insight into why it was so appalling to erase her character from the show, really revealed what type of showrunners/writers they are and the image was not pretty. I know TPTB and writers do not care about my viewership. I am no longer a valued fan, that is what Sara Diggle's erasure revealed to me. I might as well be erased, and it looks like they are succeeding. I barely watched any Flarrowverse this year. I'm still deciding on whether I will be back for Arrow next season.

@kismet, this is where I'm at, too.  I haven't watched live since they erased Baby Sara, even though I hadn't missed a live episode up until that point.  I was such a huge, devoted fan, and I was a fantastic ambassador in my unabashed enthusiasm for the show to whomever I happened to be chatting with. And, yet, the decision to erase Sara Diggle was a blow I haven't recovered from.  I hardly even post on here anymore, and I don't talk about the show other than to respond to people who ask that, no, I no longer watch because I got fed up with the way females are treated on the show and as fans.

Erasure of a female character for no good reason is unacceptable. I'm tired of the messages that women don't count as much as men, that sons are preferable to daughters, that our bodies' primary purpose is for male enjoyment.  Erasing Sara Diggle seems to be the one thing I didn't anticipate when I expected to be a devoted fan for the series' run.

[leopardprint]

9 hours ago, kismet said:

But erasing Sara Diggle from existence really made me question whether this was a show I wanted to be part of.

 

1 hour ago, EmeraldArcher said:

And, yet, the decision to erase Sara Diggle was a blow I haven't recovered from.  

@kismet, your post really struck a chord with me. I made the decision to stop watching live over the hiatus when the spoilers started coming out but then when I heard about Baby Sara, I was extremely unsettled. Both you and @EmeraldArcher have made excellent points for why it's so problematic. They also erased the child of a main character, a baby girl of color no less, as a gimmicky joke. Sara Diggle was a minor character but, as a poster on another thread said, we saw her parents reconcile, her father find out Lyla was expecting, checkups, her birth and several moments in her life. She was a much more important part of the show than William. They threw her away as an "easter egg" and erased her for a son who becomes a one-off mask which they screwed up in the first place by white washing the character who should have been the mother of Oliver's canon biracial child. (funny how the comics canon fans don't harp on that) It is so aggravating that their idea to fix the original mistake in not casting a black woman is to erase a black girl and for no actual storytelling or plot supporting reason, it was literally just a joke! It really made me look suspiciously at everything on the show. 

Edited June 1, 2017 by leopardprint

[kismet]

1 hour ago, EmeraldArcher said:

@kismet, this is where I'm at, too.  I haven't watched live since they erased Baby Sara, even though I hadn't missed a live episode up until that point.  I was such a huge, devoted fan, and I was a fantastic ambassador in my unabashed enthusiasm for the show to whomever I happened to be chatting with. And, yet, the decision to erase Sara Diggle was a blow I haven't recovered from.  I hardly even post on here anymore, and I don't talk about the show other than to respond to people who ask that, no, I no longer watch because I got fed up with the way females are treated on the show and as fans.

Erasure of a female character for no good reason is unacceptable. I'm tired of the messages that women don't count as much as men, that sons are preferable to daughters, that our bodies' primary purpose is for male enjoyment.  Erasing Sara Diggle seems to be the one thing I didn't anticipate when I expected to be a devoted fan for the series' run.

I wondered where you stood with the show. I know it was a really hard for you when it happened. I mean I guess they have made some recovery on the Olicity front. But honestly, FS is still hidden from view for stuff about her. Even her big side plots this season was all about RagGuy, Chase, Dig or Oliver. Still no professional advancement for her. No acknowledgement of her intelligence or her abilities outside of Team Arrow.

Evelyn was brought in as a poor replacement/scapegoat. Thea was virtually off the show. Black Siren is back, even if she is completely unnecessary. No Donna (and barely even a mention). I feel like I see Lyla on Flash more than on Arrow. And sorry, NuBC was just not enough representation for me, when I had to endure week after week of TPTBs please like WildDawg campaign.

Erasure of a female character was just insulting, demeaning and misogynistic. And honestly, what hurt the most was not that they did it, but that they were unapologetic. And even worse, I was not surprised by their behavior, which makes it even worse. To not be blindsided by their decision just proves how pervasive it is in modern entertainment that women are expendable.

[statsgirl]

I'm so bitter that Bam-Bam retweeted SA's win on Spoiler TV for Outstanding Actor for 5x19 and didn't retweet EBR's win for Outstanding Actress for the same episode.  He didn't win because Oliver did stunts, dummy.

[EmilyBettFan]

I have come to the conclusion that Bamford is just a douche and only likes you if you do stunts. So stupid. 

[Delphi]

So I came to a conclusion about Curtis.   I hate him.   He kinda worked in season four , I say that as I'm doing a limited rewatch of season 4 and note that I haven't really watched any of that again.. but Curtis worked as tech advisor in limited doses. 

I hate him as a person because he treated Paul awfully... constantly. 

And I can't see him as a vigilante not only because he fails.   But because I am firm in my belief that I could beat Curtis up.   I've had basic martial arts training,  my partner and I spar for fun and he served in not a pretty way and I hold my own, I'm not great but I am okay.   I just can't buy either Curtis or Echo in a vigilante role.   I do not want to fight Stephen or David or even Caity...I firmly believe they'd kick my ass.  Even knowing Colton and Willa can't fight,  they have presence.   I don't get that from Echo/Curtis. 

[insomniadreams88]

My problem with Curtis is that they seem to know how to write him well - but they just don't all the time. I liked him in season 4 enough to be happy he was made a series regular for season 5. And then season 5 happened. I haven't looked at the writers for each episode to see if that's a factor or not. 

[tangerine95]

Curtis has been the worst of the newbies for me and I really wasn't expecting that because I liked him in season 4.I think what made him work better in season 4 was that he wasn't a team member,he worked at PT and just seeing someone on the outside of team arrow helped the world of the show feel bigger and the show could use that so he had a somewhat unique role.Tho already when they let him into the bunker in 4.17 he started annoying me with how over the top he was and it just got worse with that when he joined the team.

Then in season 5 they pushed him into a mask and made him a fighter and it legit makes zero sense imo.I guess like with LL we're supposed to see him getting beaten up all the time but not giving up as brave or something but I just think its stupid and a liability to everyone else.I just don't see a reason for him to be on the team at all and it really makes him fit so badly into the show.He has some good moments I guess but for me the bad overweighs the good for sure.

Edited June 3, 2017 by tangerine95