Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[jay741982]

This show sucks

I'm going to admit something that probably makes me a bad person, but I hope Olicity is endgame so KC doesn't 'win.'

That don't make you a bad person at all Olicity should be endgame the chemistry is insane and Felicity completes Oliver

[Lord Kira]

I can't with this show anymore. The Laurelpocalypse, all of the OOC characters, propping up Laurel, forced angst, etc.  Its just too much. I may continue to watch, but if I do it won't be with any enthusiasm.

Its clear that all of the behind the scenes talent went to The Flash.

[loki567]

Somebody said it a couple weeks ago, The Flash being picked up was probably the worst thing possible for Arrow. Almost literally. Season two's quality started to drop off after Barry was introduced (although I don't really blame it on the character).

 

But Greg Berlanti and Andrew Kreisberg seemed to be the most of the show's creative strength and their focus shifted to development of The Flash in the latter-half of season two. Creative went into the hands of Marc Guggenheim and that's when the show started to blow. 

[wonderwall]

With the sidelining of Diggle, making Felicity so out of character in order to prop the weakest links (which sadly is working on a lot of people), as well as MG constantly saying that the show isn't about the trio anymore and it's 'evolved' from that, I'm wondering... How will it evolve in the next few seasons? Will it evolve into Diggle and/or Felicity being written off the show just to make room for the comic canon trio BC/GA/RA? Because the writers themselves have admitted that they're having trouble writing Diggle into the show right now (and they've used this excuse to kill off so many people like Moira and Tommy) and then when they're done using Felicity's popularity to finally make people like Laurel and Roy, will they dump them in the trash like they did Sara? 

 

In the first half of the season I could've told you flat out no. But with the last four episodes, I'm not quite sure anymore. It's disheartening. The arrow writers are essentially trashing what made the show good in the first place and they call it 'evolving' because now the weakest links aren't the weakest anymore (well, this is the case I've seen with a lot of critics and a lot of comments). It's sickening. And it's just. Ugh. I wish I could quit this show like John Campea because each week I feel disrespected as a viewer. I feel like they are questioning my intelligence when it comes to the blatant propping and sidelining as well as the nonsensical stories they come up with like teaming up with Malcolm. 

 

The show is testing my patience and I'm not usually so negative about a show's outlook. I usually try to see the bright side of things but if this is how Arrow is going to be now, then I see nothing but dark times ahead. I'm honestly HATING this show SO MUCH right now. But it doesn't change the fact that I SO LOVE Felicity and Diggle and Oliver. It's just so... conflicting. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by wonderwall

[loki567]

They didn't know what to do with Moira when she was in the middle of a mayor's race, hadn't found about Oliver being the Arrow, and still had Malcolm skirting around trying to put his hooks into her daughter? Jesus Christ, writers. 

[catrox14]

I resent the fuck out of Guggenheim et al for destroying everything that worked over ONE shitty character.  Between this and Sleepy Hollow, I have never been so utterly disappointed with a TV shows changes, and I am a Smallville, LOST and BSG fan.  Supernatural almost pushed me over the edge at then end of s9 but I stuck with it for pretty much only Jensen Ackles.  I am sticking with Arrow solely because of Oliver Queen and Stephen Amell. If they don't do something to bring the show back to being about Oliver Queen and not just tangentially, I won't be back for s4 much past a looksee. I am just really sad and disappointed.

[jay741982]

Somebody said it a couple weeks ago, The Flash being picked up was probably the worst thing possible for Arrow. Almost literally. Season two's quality started to drop off after Barry was introduced (although I don't really blame it on the character).

 

But Greg Berlanti and Andrew Kreisberg seemed to be the most of the show's creative strength and their focus shifted to development of The Flash in the latter-half of season two. Creative went into the hands of Marc Guggenheim and that's when the show started to blow.

GB or AK need to come back and have more input or boot MG out of being Showruner or something. Or get a new guy

[Shanna]

This show sucks

I'm going to admit something that probably makes me a bad person, but I hope Olicity is endgame so KC doesn't 'win.'

That's hilarious.

I have skipped half of the episodes since we came back from break. I'm wondering if I shoul wait out ray and hoping they'll put team arrow back together when he leaves?

I tell you what writers? If you think you can get me to watch atom by using felicity to make him look better you are sadly mistaken.

[tv echo]

I can't buy Laurel's "hero journey" because it just seems less a journey of self-discovery than a journey toward stealing her sister's life.  If Sara hadn't been the first Canary and was murdered, then it would be an easier sell that Laurel would then go on her own vigilante journey.  Plus, there's that back story of young Laurel sabotaging young Sara's opportunity to hook up with young Oliver, without which maybe Sara would've been Oliver's "first love" instead of Laurel.  So it just seems like Laurel first stole her sister's would-be boyfriend and then stole her sister's hero role.

Edited February 12, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

It sounds like episode was an attempt at reconing Sara and Laurel.

Que Campea: "I have never felt so disrepected as an audience member."

[Pete Martell]

I can't with this show anymore. The Laurelpocalypse, all of the OOC characters, propping up Laurel, forced angst, etc.  Its just too much. I may continue to watch, but if I do it won't be with any enthusiasm.

Its clear that all of the behind the scenes talent went to The Flash.

 

Many of the problems some have with Arrow seem to be popping up on The Flash (every argument about Iris gives me Laurel deja vu), so maybe they just have limited focus and abilities and it pops up on every show they do.

[Carrie Ann]

With the sidelining of Diggle, making Felicity so out of character in order to prop the weakest links (which sadly is working on a lot of people), as well as MG constantly saying that the show isn't about the trio anymore and it's 'evolved' from that, I'm wondering... How will it evolve in the next few seasons? Will it evolve into Diggle and/or Felicity being written off the show just to make room for the comic canon trio BC/GA/RA? Because the writers themselves have admitted that they're having trouble writing Diggle into the show right now (and they've used this excuse to kill off so many people like Moira and Tommy) and then when they're done using Felicity's popularity to finally make people like Laurel and Roy, will they dump them in the trash like they did Sara? 

 

I definitely don't think Dig or Felicity would be written out of the show unless the actors wanted out. But what I think is happening is that they are becoming tertiary characters--the way Thea and Roy used to be, for example--and I think that's what's really eating at me. This "evolving" really means a structural change in the show that leaves my favorite characters and relationships getting short-shrift. And I don't see that improving--particularly for Diggle. They say they've "struggled with" not having Dig in the field--that struggle only exists because their priority is on having BC in the field. And Roy, TBH. That is not going to change. It's only going to get worse as the focus shifts more to make this a "true ensemble."

 

Felicity is in a better situation because she's the love interest, currently for two characters, and because she serves a plot function that no one else can. But even for her, having more minutes on screen does not equal having focus. This season, I have no complaints about her screentime, but I have many many complaints over her story and her lack of development. She is being used to prop up two heroes, and again, I don't see that changing. She will get an episode or two tossed her way per season, because fans will demand it, but it feels pretty clear we're moving in a direction that will put costumed heroes at the top of the hierarchy.

[moviewhore]

I'm bitter that Ollie is teaming up with Malcolm knowing he mindfucked Thea and that she still doesn't know about that.  Another fucking secret.  Thea's agency is still being taken away each day she's unaware of her father's manipulating.  I'm also bitter that Ollie smacked down Roy possibly telling about it and still taming up with the guy anyway.  Fuck him sideways, he's still being a lying asshole even after the big "I am Arrow" reveal.  This Ollie doesn't deserve the suit and I hate it.

 

Jesus Christ enough of Felicity propping Laurel and telling her that she has a "light" within her.  Caity Lotz was kicked to the curb and had her character be ignored and marginalized with her hourney unimportant just so Laurel can wear the suit.  I'm also bitter that it took being drugged to make Laurel tell her dad about Sara's death when she should have done that from the start. 

 

SA being pushed back for Laurel's story.  He would have gotten more screen time playing Spartacus like he wanted to.  I'm bitter for him because it's like he's getting screwed over again.  He's looking so tired on the show and that's pissing me off. 

 

I wish I hadn't started the show now. 

[Shanna]

I definitely don't think Dig or Felicity would be written out of the show unless the actors wanted out. But what I think is happening is that they are becoming tertiary characters--the way Thea and Roy used to be, for example--and I think that's what's really eating at me. This "evolving" really means a structural change in the show that leaves my favorite characters and relationships getting short-shrift. And I don't see that improving--particularly for Diggle. They say they've "struggled with" not having Dig in the field--that struggle only exists because their priority is on having BC in the field. And Roy, TBH. That is not going to change. It's only going to get worse as the focus shifts more to make this a "true ensemble."

Felicity is in a better situation because she's the love interest, currently for two characters, and because she serves a plot function that no one else can. But even for her, having more minutes on screen does not equal having focus. This season, I have no complaints about her screentime, but I have many many complaints over her story and her lack of development. She is being used to prop up two heroes, and again, I don't see that changing. She will get an episode or two tossed her way per season, because fans will demand it, but it feels pretty clear we're moving in a direction that will put costumed heroes at the top of the hierarchy.

All of this is pretty damned depressing.

[BumpSetSpike]

What the heck has happened to my one-time favorite show? 

 

• The show I used to count down time and watch live on a Wednesday night because it was so intriguing? 
• The show I would be able to use as bribery material to get my teen and tween to get homework done quickly and get a few extra chores thrown in for Mommy? 
• The show where I would watch each episode at least two if not more times just to make sure I didn't miss any nuances that I may have missed the first time?
• The show where I was so intrigued by the journey of this tortured character and his relationships with his family and his original team?

 

What happened?  

 

Now...

• I DVR the show because 'eh, other things to do
• My kids have not watched an episode in weeks because, as last night showed, my teen would rather fold his laundry (which rarely happens) and my tween would rather watch a Disney XD Lab Rats episode for the 50th time
• I have found myself fast-forwardeding, on first watch, many of the scenes because this show is just getting so ridiculous and come to this forum to read if I may have missed anything good ... I haven't.
• At what point did it change from a story about Oliver Queen becoming the Arrow to a story about Superheroes 'R Us?

Edited February 12, 2015 by BumpSetSpike

[blixie]

 

Because the writers themselves have admitted that they're having trouble writing Diggle

 

What is "What White People Say When Writing for Black Characters" for a $1000 Alex! 

[KirkB]

I wonder if the reason you only get a couple of shots of Caity Lotz while the rest of it is clearly two stunt doubles fighting is because after a while she got fed up with it and left. I don't blame her for not wanting to come back.

[chaos is welcome]

 

 

Screentime:

« canaries »

Oliver: 25mins, 9secs

Laurel: 17mins, 29secs

Diggle: 7mins, 0secs

Thea: 13mins, 16secs

Felicity: 7mins, 40secs

Roy: 10mins, 30secs

Malcolm: 3mins, 28secs

Quentin: 3mins, 39secs

« season totals (so far) »

Oliver: 4hours, 30mins, 49secs

Laurel: 1hour, 49mins, 36secs

Diggle: 1hour, 50mins, 54secs

Thea: 58mins, 36secs

Felicity: 2hours, 30mins, 33secs

Roy: 1hour, 57mins, 11secs

Malcolm: 42mins, 10secs

Quentin: 28mins, 16secs

Now that her arc has ended, Laurel has almost caught up to Diggle. They are both behind Oliver, Felicity and Roy.

These totals don't include Felicity, Diggle and Oliver over on Flash, which catches Diggle up to Roy and bumps Felicity and Oliver well above the rest of the cast.

(Source: http://forgingfire.t...s-laurel-17mins )

From the Canaries ep thread, posted by Quarks.

 

I am bitter that Laurel has almost caught Diggle in terms of screen time this season. 

The sad thing is, I'm almost over my bitterness.  I forgot Arrow was on last night (first time that's happened) and just a glance on the ep thread made me glad I'd forgotten.  Its horrible what they've done to Sara for Laurel, and I don't like the person they've written Felicity to become.  Her character is questionable because they have made her say and do questionable things, and that pretty much kills the show for me.  I'll keep the S2 version of Felicity in my head and just choose to forget S3 Laurel.

 

I have seriously considering sending my S1 and S2 dvds to Guggenheim. Its to that point.  I may never watch any episodes again for fun. 

[benteen]

What is "What White People Say When Writing for Black Characters" for a $1000 Alex! 

 

This a thousand times!  How can they be having trouble writing for Diggle?  The actor and the character was great and he's been a major, logical part in things from the beginning.  Despite Laurel being one of their pet characters, it's taken the writers into the third season of the show to come up with a remotely decent storyline for her.  Ridiculous.

 

I'm bitter about the fact that Malcolm basically violated Thea with the whole brainwashing/murder thing and Oliver still hasn't told her about it.  What Malcolm did doesn't warrant a second chance, despite him being the only "blood parent" Thea has left.

 

On the flip side, this might sound cruel but Thea is 20 years old.  It's terrible what happend to her REAL parents (Robert and Moira) but why does she still need a parental figure?  A father figure?  She already had one in Walter although the writers wants us to forget about that (like they wanted us to forget about Malcolm's brainwashing last episode).  She's almost 21...it's time for her to move on.

Edited February 12, 2015 by benteen

[dtissagirl]

I'm bitter because I'm having a hard time figuring out what the hell they're doing with Oliver's characterization post not-death. I was loving him, and how he was developing until 309,but now it just feels like the writing derailed him for plot reasons.

I'm even having some cognitive dissonance with him? I mean, I think I'm supposed to think this deal with Merlyn to defeat Ra's is his Arrow side acting up, right? The ends justify the means and the mission comes first and shit. Except the mission is to protect the city and its people, and he just let that in Team Arrowless hands. It feels like defeating Ra's is an Oliver Queen acting in his own self interest mission instead. Sure, his life is in danger, and so is Thea's [in a very show not tell way, btw, since Ra's actually hasn't threatened Thea yet], but it feels like compromising everything he learned last season about what being the Arrow means. The deal with Malcolm is compromising his soul, isolating him from his team, and the worst part is the writing is trying to sell it as THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, when that is more about creative bankruptcy and making John Barrowman happy, rather than actual in-text only choice. There are other choices, the first of which is GETTING RID OF MALCOLM FIRST, dealing with Ra's later. If only because the only person who's gonna tell Ra's about Thea's involvement in Sara's death is Daddy Psycho himself.

Anyway. Super forever bitter Oliver is being written dumb because Merlyn.

Edited February 14, 2015 by dancingnancy

[looptab]

 

If only because the only person who's gonna tell Ra's about Thea's involvement in Sara's death is Daddy Psycho himself.

This. This is the crux of the problem.  But no one wants to dwell on that, because if they'd actually stop and think that MM is the cause of it all, that he is the one who put Thea's life in danger in the first place, by threatening to show his video, all this convoluted plot would fall like a cards castle. :/

Edited February 14, 2015 by looptab

[benteen]

This. This is the crux of the problem.  But no one wants to dwell on that, because if they'd actually stop and think that MM is the cause of it all, that he is the one who put Thea's life in danger in the first place, by threatening to show his video, all this convoluted plot would fall like a cards castle. :/

 

Not to mention Malcolm's convoluted plan to kill Sara so that Oliver would have to fight Ra....it just doesn't make any sense.

[Password]

I'm bitter because I'm having a hard time figuring out what the hell they're doing with Oliver's characterization post not-death. I was loving him, and how he was developing until 309,but now it just feels like the writing derailed him for plot reasons.

I'm even having some cognitive dissonance with him? I mean, I think I'm supposed to think this deal with Merlyn to defeat Ra's is his Arrow side acting up, right? The ends justify the means and the mission comes first and shit. Except the mission is to protect the city and its people, and he just let that in Team Arrowless hands. It feels like defeating Ra's is an Oliver Queen acting in his own self interest mission instead. Sure, his life is in danger, and so is Thea's [in a very show not tell way, btw, since Ra's actually hasn't threatened Thea yet], but it feels like compromising everything he learned last season about what being the Arrow means. The deal with Malcolm is compromising his soul, isolating him from his team, and the worst part is the writing is trying to sell it as THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, when that is more about creative bankruptcy and making John Barrowman happy, rather than actual in-text only choice. There are other choices, the first of which is GETTING RID OF MALCOLM FIRST, dealing with Ra's later. If only because the only person who's gonna tell Ra's about Thea's involvement in Sara's death is Daddy Psycho himself.

Anyway. Super forever bitter Oliver is being written dumb because Merlyn.

This. This is pretty much where I'm at with this plot. None of it makes logical sense therefore the only reason Oliver is doing it is because plot dictates it.

It's the reason I'm having difficulty connecting to anything happening in 3b at the moment. They keep making Oliver dumb for plot and it's irritating me.

[Danny Franks]

I'm bitter because I'm having a hard time figuring out what the hell they're doing with Oliver's characterization post not-death. I was loving him, and how he was developing until 309,but now it just feels like the writing derailed him for plot reasons.

 

Hasn't Guggenheim pretty much admitted that this is exactly what they're doing? They need Oliver to make dumb decisions because it fits the story they want to tell, so dumb decisions he shall make. Even if they don't really make sense when put in the context of his previous characterisation and decisionmaking.

 

Just like they want Felicity to be mad at him for putting Thea's safety ahead of his own moral preferences. I honestly don't see how the Felicity I remember from seasons 1 and 2 would be so mad about it that she'd walk away from him. But that's what the writers want, because she has to validate 50 Shades with her affections.

[poetgirl925]

I know I'm going to have to get over it if I have any hope of continuing to watch this show without bitterness, but seeing Sara back in Canaries just made me sad that we lost such a strong female character. And these quick ascensions to superhero status are just bugging the hell out of me. The current Black Canary, an iconic fighter in comics, had an unarmed self defense class once upon a time and a few months of boxing lessons with a guy who can't even hold his own in a street fight for more than a minute, but she's ready to rumble. Hey Arrow writers - I've done taekwondo, more unarmed self defense classes than I count, martial arts and kickboxing. By your logic, I should be able to wander right into Nanda Parbat and kick Ra's al Ghul's ass. Forget Malcolm - I can train Oliver! *sigh*

God, this show is getting so stupid with this logic and magic herbs. They might as well just bring in superpowers and get it over with.

[dtissagirl]

I think I would take the leaps in logic and development if the show was fun. But these insane levels of angst, and the constant character whumping, and every single storyline being super depressive make it impossible to handwave the faulty narrative stuff. And I'm *great* with overlooking crappy writing, but only if there's emotional payoff for the characters. And amusement for me. Arrow currently offers neither.

[poetgirl925]

I think I would take the leaps in logic and development if the show was fun. But these insane levels of angst, and the constant character whumping, and every single storyline being super depressive make it impossible to handwave the faulty narrative stuff. And I'm *great* with overlooking crappy writing, but only if there's emotional payoff for the characters. And amusement for me. Arrow currently offers neither.

Agreed. I'm watching this week, but if my annoyance level doesn't decrease, I'm gonna peace out for a while. I will say that this show is good for the treadmill. I'm so pissed while watching that I at least manage to work off some of my aggression

[KirkB]

Oh I don't need logic to enjoy a show. As long as the writing isn't so bad it's physically painful to watch and, more importantly, what is happening on screen is both fun and interesting I can put up with or ignore an awful lot. Arrow was that, at least for a season and a half. IMO the Slade stuff utterly derailed in the second half but that alone wasn't enough to ruin the show for me, it was just a plot gone wrong. Then season 3 came along and didn't even make it a full episode before the whole thing started to fall apart. Killing Sara in the last few seconds ruined what had been an otherwise enjoyable season premiere and put a depressing pallor on everything that followed. Then they go and turn Laurel into a vigilante out of nowhere, mess with Quentin for far too long, have everybody except maybe Ra's al Ghul making stupid, OOC decisions or statements, and drive away a number of their previously loyal viewers at least here on this board. I'm personally not ready to give up on the show but for the first time I am actually considering it. 

[statsgirl]

The show isn't fun any more. They took what made it good -- the O/D/F Team Arrow, Felicity's humor, Diggle's strength, Oliver's hotness, Sara's strength and vulnerability Moira's scheming and greyness -- and dumped it to write they're SuperHeroes R Us starring InstaCanary and Who is that character with no boundaries?  At this point, all I want is for Ray to get his own show and to take Laurel with him permanently.  And if the EPs intend to have Thea suit up with a mask, they can take her too.

 

On the flip side, this might sound cruel but Thea is 20 years old.  It's terrible what happend to her REAL parents (Robert and Moira) but why does she still need a parental figure?  A father figure?  She already had one in Walter although the writers wants us to forget about that (like they wanted us to forget about Malcolm's brainwashing last episode).  She's almost 21...it's time for her to move on.

Ordinarily, I'd say yes, she doesn't need a parental figure. Oliver's been without one since he was 22, Sara since she was 20.  But at the moment, uch of the timeThea is acting like a 6 year old 'you don't get to be the boss of me' except when she's banging her DJ on the couch of the apartment her brother and father walk in and out of.

 

Bitter about Thea's storyline this season; it could have been so good.

[pootlus]

Geez yeah if this is Willa's 'reward' for being a team player they must straight up hate her.

 

Mind you I can see the cognitive dissonance where they think they're giving her a fantastic story and it's all AWSUM and all I'm seeing is an abused woman whose agency has been taken away from her (not that Thea had much to start with).

[benteen]

I enjoyed Season 2 a lot more than many here though I agree that Slade's motivations were weak as all hell.  Only Manu Bennett was able to make that work

 

I'm bitter because as it's been pointed out, Laurel swings her weapon like she's swinging at a piñata.  That's what happens when you get a partially-trained Canary.

Edited February 15, 2015 by benteen

[Password]

The really annoying thing is she's never trained to use it. She's literally using it like a stick she picked up off the floor.

I mean at least Oliver frikin trained with the bow and arrow.

[apinknightmare]

The really annoying thing is she's never trained to use it. She's literally using it like a stick she picked up off the floor.

 

Isn't that the point? 

[Password]

Perhaps it is. But I'm surprised she can wield it at all. She hasn't even thought of training how to use it.

The fact that Laurel hasn't gotten herself killed yet is mind boggling. Didn't she watch kick-ass?

Edited February 15, 2015 by Limbo

[apinknightmare]

Perhaps it is. But I'm surprised she can wield it at all. She hasn't even thought of training how to use it.

 

She hasn't really thought about training to do anything, but the training part of this arc is the least important, apparently. I'm sure Nyssa or whoever ultimately takes her on will give her some much-needed weapons lessons. Off screen, of course, and probably never mentioned again.

[KirkB]

She doesn't need training to whack people with a stick. Anyone can do that. It doesn't require skill or finesse, neither of which Laurel has. You just need a solid enough weapon and the physical strength necessary to swing it. Laurel has that at least.

[catrox14]

She would have the strength to swing Sara's big baton thing but that nightstick is smaller and would require she get closer to the enemy to strike I would think. If she has to get closer she's already putting herself at risk without better hand to hand combat training. Same with the boxing lessons. I mean she doesn't have elastoarms to punch someone from 3 feet away. 

[pivot]

It's not believable that Laurel has the physical strength to do any damage when she is played by Katie Cassidy who is easily 10-15 lbs underweight. Season 1 KC was believable but not the current KC.

[benteen]

Perhaps it is. But I'm surprised she can wield it at all. She hasn't even thought of training how to use it.

The fact that Laurel hasn't gotten herself killed yet is mind boggling. Didn't she watch kick-ass?

 

Laurel as Kick-Ass?  I admit, I'd LOVE to see that!

[catrox14]

Ugh...that makes me want to cry. What an insult to Kick-Ass.

[Angel12d]

How do you stand the hate mails all of you get? How do you move past it and keep writing a magnificent show?

You just recognize that everyone’s entitled to their opinion.  Also, we don’t get as much hate mail as you might expect.  And the vast majority of the hate mail we do get is from people who are just angry that they’re not getting what the want immediately.  For example, last year, 95% — I’m guesstimating — of our hate mail was from people who were pissed off that we made Caity Lotz the Canary instead of making Katie Cassidy Black Canary.  But we always had the plan that you’re seeing unfold this year.  A lot of what looks like “hate” mail is really misguided “impatient” or “I don’t have faith in you” mail.

 

So MG basically just admitted here that they created Sara with the sole purpose of killing her off at some point, just so Laurel could become BC. They invested so much screen time on her character (to the point where she was basically female lead in a lot of episodes) even though she was going to die. WTF was the point then? I don't understand these showrunners. Why build Sara up to have such a great backstory and leave Laurel in some weird sort of story limbo that drained the life of everything when she was onscreen? It makes no sense.

 

Seriously, if you have to kill off one character to make another one work, you're doing writing wrong. I can't.

[kieyra]

I'm not a regular here, but just dropped by to say how infuriating it is to watch them making various characters into sock puppets for the producers so they can tell the audience, I mean, Oliver, that we are dumb for rejecting Laurel as a viable superhero.

Almost as infuriating as FelicityBot.

Between this and Sleepy Hollow, I'm getting close to having to go back to shows I merely like rather than love.

P.S., seeing Laurel get tranq-darted in the neck was an awful tease back to the good old days of s2 when she used to spend so much time unconscious.

Edited February 15, 2015 by kieyra

[kismet]

It's not believable that Laurel has the physical strength to do any damage when she is played by Katie Cassidy who is easily 10-15 lbs underweight. Season 1 KC was believable but not the current KC.

Its not just her weight, its a lack of visible muscle tone. Maggie Q was super skinny in Nikita, as was her partner on that show, but they were all lean muscle. So they either need to get KC a physical trainer or the stunt doubles need to change the way they fight so its more believable. Personally, I would hope they just work on KC, since healthier body images are needed on tv. Can't stand all the crop tops this season, but the one thing the wardrobe dept has shown us is that WH & EBR are both pretty fit & tone. I can understand KC wanting to stay lean, I just wish she had more tone.

Edited - I want to make sure it didnt sound too bitter. I think kc is beautiful, I think she was beautiful in s1 & Monte Carlo. I just think since they made her take on training more for BC, her portions of muscle/fat/tone/bone has gone a little out of balance. I would just like her to look a lil healthier. That's probably not her fault but more just side effect of the schedule. She's a beautiful woman, just want her to look like her body can handle the kick ass things she does as BC.

Edited February 15, 2015 by kismet

[loki567]

I'm not a regular here, but just dropped by to say how infuriating it is to watch them making various characters into sock puppets for the producers so they can tell the audience, I mean, Oliver, that we are dumb for rejecting Laurel as a viable superhero.

Almost as infuriating as FelicityBot.

 

 

I could even accept this if it was just about Laurel, but when the entire season's plot hinges on, "characters acting like sock puppets," that's when I jump off.

 

No scene was worse for me than when Roy comes down to the Arrow Cave after talking to Thea about Malcolm, who remember unknowingly drugged her to kill someone, comes downstairs to the team, "We should work with Malcolm. He cares about Thea and the Glades. Just in a different way." It was just the stupidest, most contrived way possible for this season to go.   

 

I'll ask again: why would they decide to kill Susanna Thompson and Caity Lotz off and pretty much rip the fabric of the show apart to keep John Barrowman as a regular? Where was the benefit for anybody? 

[catrox14]

 

'll ask again: why would they decide to kill Susanna Thompson and Caity Lotz off and pretty much rip the fabric of the show apart to keep John Barrowman as a regular? Where was the benefit for anybody?

 

I don'tsee how keeping Barrowman necessitated killing Moira or Sara.  They could have easily kept both on board.  They always planned to bring Malcolm back after s1 according to all accounts but they needed to make us think he was dead.

Edited February 15, 2015 by catrox14

[pootlus]

So next time they should chop him into tiny pieces and scatter him to the corners of the earth. I mean I love Barrowman but srsly show.

[apinknightmare]

I don'tsee how keeping Barrowman necessitated killing Moira or Sara.  They could have easily kept both on board.  They always planned to bring Malcolm back after s1 according to all accounts but they needed to make us think he was dead.

 

I disagree. If they had this batshit story with Malcolm planned from last season, they needed to kill Moira. No way would things have gotten this far with him if she'd been alive, estranged from Thea or not. She'd have had him killed by now.

[catrox14]

My point was more that I  don't  think they had to get rid of Susannah and Caity to pay Barrowman.

Edited February 15, 2015 by catrox14

[benteen]

The fact that they did a storyline in Season 1 where Thea tried to hook up with Tommy is proof to me about how last-second the whole "Thea is Malcolm's kid" storyline was thrown together.  Who welcomes a creepy incest storyline on purpose?  Shows like Game of Thrones aside.

 

I became a fan of Barrowman during the first season and a bigger fan of him once I watched Doctor Who.  But bringing back Malcolm Merlyn has done nothing for the show but hurt its storylines and characterizations.  It's brought nothing to the table.  Not a knock on Barrowman, just the writers.

 

I think the plan all along was to have Laurel as the Black Canary (more on that later) but I have no idea why they wrote her such an awful Season 2 storyline that hurt her character and made her more unqualified than ever to be The Black Canary.

 

I still worry that Oliver/Felicity is the ultimate endgame for this show.  While they made Felicity a bigger character on this show, showrunners can be very stubborn when deviating from their "master plan."  There's also the obsession with making things happen because they were like that with the source material.  Don't get me wrong, for a lot of movies and shows I want them to keep with the original source material.  But I see comic book adaptations as far more flexible because of its very nature.  Lot of different writers, a lot of retcons, a lot of stories.  That's comic books.  Good or bad, Smallville did things their way and made their own universe out of Superman's past.  That's why is annoyed me when during the last season of two (especially the finale) they started awkwardly imposing comic book canon into the stories despite what they have established onscreen.  It pissed me off at the end.

 

DC Comics itself isn't exactly tied down to their own canon once they did the New 52 reboot.  They've shown a willingness to break-up long-term couples (hell, I believe there's a no marriage policy now in their books).  Arrow shouldn't be so rigidly tied to it's comic book history but I have a feeling that's what the writers of the show want.  So I think Oliver and Laurel will be their ultimate endgame.  Just my opinion.

Edited February 16, 2015 by benteen

[statsgirl]

I disagree. If they had this batshit story with Malcolm planned from last season, they needed to kill Moira. No way would things have gotten this far with him if she'd been alive, estranged from Thea or not. She'd have had him killed by now.

Put her in a coma or have her disappear off-screen for year the way that did with Malcolm Merlyn.  Have her in jail or lost on her own island.

 

Or have her stick around but hobble her somehow. She doesn't know where Malcolm is, and Thea refuses to talk to her.  She argues with Oliver not to believe MM (because someone has to and they're not letting Felicity or Diggle do it) but he goes anyway and it backfires.  Great scenes between Oliver and Moira.

 

Malcolm has been a huge disappointment as a villain this season because he just does what he wants and no one stands up to him.  It's like doing wall push-ups, you can stand there in the middle of the room and just move your arms back and forth (Merlyn with no opponent) and get a little exercise, or you can go stand against a wall and push back against it (Moira) and really develop the muscles.

 

The season, the Malcolm storyline, from the moment Oliver decided to protect  him from the LoA, has been flabby.