Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[apinknightmare]

I was being ranty, on reflection O probably isn't ready, however I still stand by my wanting the relationship drama over as soon as possible. I like blixie's timeline.

 

Yeah, if I'm going to have to be subjected to drama while I watch Oliver get himself to a place where he's ready to be with her, once he's ready to be with her I want that to be it. I can only take so much.

[dtissagirl]

What Limbo is saying, is also where I'm at.

 

I actually think Oliver is getting the best character development he's ever had on this show right now. Because it's not some big glaring DUH thing like, you know, stop killing people because that's WRONG [duh]. But he's learning to... if not letting people in totally, at least he's reaching out TO people, and providing support to them. Compromising with Thea re: Merlyn, going to live with her, being a friend and mentor to Roy, talking to Diggle about his feelings about Felicity dating Palmer. These are all the things I always wished for Oliver, and he's finally getting it. Slow and steady, but he said "I don't wanna die down here" and he's taking steps towards that.

 

And I also think that he realizes that this is more than him not being ready for relationships. We know he's not, and he knows he's not, but I think it goes a bit further: he knows he's not ready to have the kind of relatioship with Felicity that HE WANTS TO HAVE. Which is full trust full disclosure all in all feelings ever partners in life and in superheroing for the rest of their lives. But hey, I'm still good with the fact that he wants that, even if he believes he doesn't deserve it.

 

And same with Felicity -- I love that she's not sitting in a corner pining for Oliver. While still spending [most of] her nights with him, helping him with a mission he thinks is just his, while she KNOWS it's as much hers and Diggle's as it ever was Oliver's. And I really really love it that she's finally got a job she can use all that brain power for. I wish Palmer was something else entirely [frankly, I wish he were Smallville!Oliver circa S8 -- arrogant playboy billionaire making shady business deals and buying expensive jewelry solely to get into Tess' pants, but hey, also a superhero on his spare time], but as I said in the Hopes & Fears thread, I'm tolerating his presence because he'll advance the romance plot. I can avert my eyes to avoid cringing too hard when HIS eyes go crazy.

 

But what's bugging me is Oliver/Felicity stopped being organic the second that bomb exploded the restaurant. This entire season feels more "written" than 2B ever was, even, and it's because it IS, but the romance storyline is glaringly more "written" than the plotty mess of the murder mystery. F/O was mostly happening despite the writing all through S1 and S2, and now, yeah, imo it's exactly what Pyramid said upthread -- the writers actively decided to ~write~ the romance storyline. Apparently with very specific cockblocking tropes to reach at specific episodes. And it shows.

 

It also feels very high schoolish. "Palmer asked me to the prom, Oliver, is that all right?" "Do. What. You. Want.", he said passive-aggressively. All that scene made me think of was Amell saying in the set interview that these are grown ups dealing with a grown up relationship, and I was watching and thinking, no, son, this is Degrassi.

Edited November 21, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Pyramid]

Yeah, it's almost like the character growth that Oliver has shown this season (and let's be honest that's one of the better things this year) has been an undesigned consequence of the relationship drama. Maybe I'm being too harsh on the writers, maybe the relationship drama was designed to push O's development, I just feel that it's kind happened by accident. 

However it's happened, the flip side is Felicity is isolated from TA and getting closer to Ray, which if Ray wasn't a creepy, stalkerish, Pretty Woman watching social inadequate I'd be all for F getting a little on the side. She deserves it!

[dtissagirl]

Yup. I actually can't decide if I'm grateful Palmer is so much more of a plot-device than a real character, or disappointed that he's not a genuine nice guy with real feelings for Felicity. On the one hand, I have zero worries that he poses a threat for F/O, even if Felicity starts dating him for real in the next episode. It'll be a plot-driven temporary side relationship to stall the storyline. But otoh, because Palmer is written and performed the way he is, it'll be excruciatingly painful to watch, because all his scenes are with Felicity, and it hurts *my* soul when Felicity has to breathe the same air as soul-sucking characters.

[Password]

Before I Ray Rant, I had a thought today about why I'm having such trouble with him. I feel like the writers have everything down pat with contrasting the many wonderful things Ray has to offer Felicity to what Oliver doesn't have to offer, but Ray's character is the glaring inconsistency for me. To me it seems the writers went OK, let Ray be that person whom appreciates Felicity, gives her a high standing job, is emotionally available and super hot. But that is all in conjunction with giving FELICITY what she needs. I feel like they failed to give US as the audience a man who's character makes him good for US too. He is a fairly divisive character in that some people say he has no boundaries, and others say he's just socially awkward. Personally, I think there's socially awkward then there's making up excuses to excuse his negative tendencies. And if his behaviour is called out and he's put in his place I would enjoy it. But what annoys me further is that at the beginning we had Felicity calling him out on his nonsense. Now apparently she's OK with it? That's probably what annoys me most, we have no idea what's going on her head concerning Ray so we assume she's OK with everything.

And on what green earth is it OK for your boss to buy you a couture dress and rent a $10m necklace. I just...I can't. How is that platonic? Who finds it romantic? Please someone explain this to me.

[apinknightmare]

And on what green earth is it OK for your boss to buy you a couture dress and rent a $10m necklace. I just...I can't. How is that platonic? Who finds it romantic? Please someone explain this to me.

 

My problem isn't because he's her boss per se - I was shipping her and Oliver together when she was his EA so I don't want to make myself into a hypocrite. I was okay with it then because I knew they already had a personal relationship outside of the office and that a gift of that nature (or even a loan) would've been outside of the realm of the boss/employee relationship even if she was wearing it to a work function (if that makes any sense). All of Ray's interactions with Felicity have been in the workplace and/or somewhat related to work, and adding a "romantic" element to them just makes it seem like he's taking advantage of his position as her employer or manipulating her in a way that makes me uncomfortable. If they had an established relationship (be it friendly or not) outside of the office, I think it wouldn't come off as questionable to me.

Edited November 21, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Password]

Erm practically everything Ray does comes across as questionable to me. That's why I desperately want to get inside Felicity's head. I need to know what she thinks because right now, things seem a-okay.

[blixie]

 

And I also think that he realizes that this is more than him not being ready for relationships. We know he's not, and he knows he's not, but I think it goes a bit further: he knows he's not ready to have the kind of relatioship with Felicity that HE WANTS TO HAVE. Which is full trust full disclosure all in all feelings ever partners in life and in superheroing for the rest of their lives. But hey, I'm still good with the fact that he wants that, even if he believes he doesn't deserve it.

 

I'm taking this to the Relationship thread cause it's evolved to the specifics of that rather than resultant bitterness about that.

[apinknightmare]

Erm practically everything Ray does comes across as questionable to me. That's why I desperately want to get inside Felicity's head. I need to know what she thinks because right now, things seem a-okay.

 

I meant as questionable. It'd still be questionable to me, but not as much, haha.

[chaos is welcome]

I suppose, when you think about it, it has been a month since Palmer was weirdly trying to hire her. Since then, she has flaked out on him repeatedly and he's been okay with it. He has had lots of great ideas for helping the city...taking a salary of one dollar, the coregeneration thing. ..I am sure there was more they didn't show us. I think palmers weird behavior is explained by the fact that he is ridiculously excited to have anyone who understands wtf he is saying. And felicity has had a filter issue so she gets it. Bitterness stems from the fact we have to fan wank all of this, rather than them showing us.

I am also bitter because guggenheims tweet has ruined my excitement for the cross. I have zero expectations and it's depressing.

[apinknightmare]

I suppose, when you think about it, it has been a month since Palmer was weirdly trying to hire her.

 

Speaking of, I mentioned this in the episode thread, but during the press conference, Ray mentioned that it's been a few months since his pledge to make Starling a better place (I'm paraphrasing). Did we have some kind of time jump? Because if we're in real time, Ray only came into the picture a month and a half ago, not three.

[Chaser]

I wanted Team Arrow/Team Flash. :-(

[dtissagirl]

Speaking of, I mentioned this in the episode thread, but during the press conference, Ray mentioned that it's been a few months since his pledge to make Starling a better place (I'm paraphrasing). Did we have some kind of time jump? Because if we're in real time, Ray only came into the picture a month and a half ago, not three.

 

I noticed that too -- as if sometime between 305 and 307 there was a bigger time jump than the usual one week. Except the flashback to Team Arrow vs. the Strokes said "six months ago". And that implies a month and a half, not 3 months. Hee. Arrow: always doing timelines wrong.

[NumberCruncher]

"It was because of WORMS Roxanne, WORMS!"

*still giggling* Perfect random movie reference.

 

Yeah, it's almost like the character growth that Oliver has shown this season (and let's be honest that's one of the better things this year) has been an undesigned consequence of the relationship drama. Maybe I'm being too harsh on the writers, maybe the relationship drama was designed to push O's development, I just feel that it's kind happened by accident. 

However it's happened, the flip side is Felicity is isolated from TA and getting closer to Ray, which if Ray wasn't a creepy, stalkerish, Pretty Woman watching social inadequate I'd be all for F getting a little on the side. She deserves it!

But what annoys me further is that at the beginning we had Felicity calling him out on his nonsense. Now apparently she's OK with it? That's probably what annoys me most, we have no idea what's going on her head concerning Ray so we assume she's OK with everything.

Yep. Although I hate love triangles with the fire of a thousand burning suns, I never objected to the idea that Felicity should be able to sleep with whomever she wants, but damn it! Why the hell does it have to be this guy? Furthermore, why are you now making her complicit to his questionable behavior? I want my Felicity back!

[statsgirl]

 but the bottom line is he punked out AGAIN, failed to follow through, ran because things were complicated and hard *emotionally*. 

I'm now thinking that he wasn't going to go to Felicity and tell her he wants to be in now.  I think it was just going to be like the time before, when he told Felicity she knows how he feels about her, and the time before that when he shut down the possibility of a relationship before it even started with his maybes.  This was going to be another 'I care about you but I can't be with you now but I really care about you', in which case, it's a good thing he turned on his heel and left.

 

I'm bitter that he's still hurting Felicity, but I'm okay with him turning tail.

Edited November 21, 2014 by statsgirl

[dtissagirl]

I legit feel there was no defined motivation in the writing for Oliver going to see Felicity. What was he doing there didn't even cross the writer's mind, because the entire point of the scene was Oliver witnessing Felicity kissing another dude, and leaving without being seen. I guess it could have equally been "Sage Master Diggle made me see the light, I'm wrong, let's do this" or "I'm sorry you heard me talking to Crazy Pants Lady over comms". I bet if anyone asks the writers, what would Oliver say if Felicity was alone?, it's something like "well, we'll never know, because she wasn't alone". Oliver was there because kiss because plot-driven.

Edited November 21, 2014 by dancingnancy

[MostlyC]

Some posts posted here have veered from bitterness into posts that belong in the relationship topic, or perhaps the Felicity topic.

 

I'm not going to move anything, but please be mindful when you post.

 

Thank you and happy Friday!

[calliope1975]

On yeah, they skipped S3/4 and went straight to S6...AKA the crap seasons.

 

I think this is why I'm so angry. Give me one or two awesome seasons, and I'll accept (though be sad) when the show begins to decline and gets crappy. We didn't even get the good seasons! I only got 9 episodes last season. Grr argh.

[writersblock51]

I'm profoundly bitter that Oliver is still, halfway into Season 3, still just 'the Arrow' while we're getting Laurel as Black Canary.  She's being marketed as such. It's so absolutely ridiculous.  She has done nothing to earn that title.

 

I'm bitter that Sara was so cruelly killed and fridged to prop up a pathetic verison of an iconic, strong female superhero.

[statsgirl]

I think Laurel gets to be the Black Canary right away because Sara was the Canary, although MG referred to her a number of times as the Black Canary.  Although really none of it makes much sense since while Yao Fei and Shado wore the hood first, Billy Wintergreen wore the two colored mask and was called Deathstroke.

 

The whole Canary story has been such a mess since they decided that Sara wouldn't do as an endpoint.  Either they never should have brought in an actress who could play a good Black Canary and give her an organic origin story, or they should have left her in position.

 

I'm bitter because this show is wasting my time trying to figure out the Canary storyline, like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.  The harder they try, the less sense it makes.

[tv echo]

In the first 12 minutes of his last After Show video, John Campea expressed exactly why I feel bitter about the way the show botched up the Laurel character and made instant superheroes on Arrow.

[Sakura12]

If this show wanted to a bunch of hero origin stories they should've called it Justice League. The show is called Arrow we should only be seeing Oliver's origin. If they wanted other heroes they should've already been established (like Sara was) to solve the insta-hero problem. Or make a show about that hero's origin and stop using Arrow for that. 

 

Even Smallville got that part right. The show was mostly about the BDA (and Lana Lang). The other heroes were already in a costume or close to getting one, then we got one episode about their origin and the rest of the show was back to Clark and later Oliver Queen.

[ohjoy]

Even Smallville got that part right. The show was mostly about the BDA (and Lana Lang). The other heroes were already in a costume or close to getting one, then we got one episode about their origin and the rest of the show was back to Clark and later Oliver Queen.

I bolded the last part because that's what concerns me. As someone else mentioned, this show seems to have jumped over seasons 3-5 quality-wise and right into season 6. Which is when Smallville introduced Oliver Queen. And while I loved Oliver on Smallville (I had quit watching the show in season 4 and tuned back in almost exclusively for Justin Hartley), it does sort of set a precedent for the show about the origins of one superhero becoming the story about the beginning of a different superhero, who is then used to compel the original main character to be the superhero that everyone was waiting on him to be.

 

Smallville essentially got away with it (because, again, Justin Hartley), but I'm doubtful of Arrow's ability to pull off the same kind of coup, especially the way they're currently going about it.

[Sakura12]

Smallville got away with it because by that point people were sick of Clark and would gladly take anyone over him. Plus it was in season 6 when shows start running out of materiel and need new blood. I was fine with it then. 

 

Arrow is on season 3 and acting like they are in season 10. They should not have run out of material already. They have because comics to use and seem to only use that excuse when they don't have an actual answer for why things are happening. 

[Betweenthisandthat]

If I'm bitter about anything it's that this show was about Oliver/Arrow and people trying to better the city and how difficult that is.  It was about characters who stood for something morally and how hard it was to be a source of good when it's so easy to be sucked into vengeance and corruption.  I'm sorry but I'm not interested in who is with whom or the Oliver and Felicity of it all.  I think that's taken away from the focus of the show and has screwed up the togetherness that Oliver, Felicity, and Diggle had.  It hasn't done Felicity and Oliver a lot of favors either.  I don't blame Roy or even Laurel for this.  Roy gets his origins story bit by bit and Laurel looks like she will as well.  Too often she's used as the scape goat in really disturbing ways for what's wrong with the show when for me it's that the show has lost the focus from Oliver and a group of people (Diggle, Felicity and now Roy and possibly Laurel) fighting corruption and trying to live their personal lives at the same time.  I don't know what the mission of the show is now.  I don't think it has one.  

 

I want Oliver's backstory to be compelling again.  I loved his scenes on the island especially in season 1.  So much about season 1 was better than we have now because there was a stronger arc, better surprises,  and more investment in the characters and their layered relationships on the show, too.  I understood what Oliver's goals were and what his internal struggles were.  I loved how they developed Diggle and Oliver's friendship and how important Diggle was to the story too.  He wasn't just the guy who shipped Olicity from the sidelines.  He had his own thing to contribute.  And Tommy was still around.  So many great characters in season 1 that aren't around anymore. Oliver had a family he was trying to protect and save and friends that believed in what they were fighting for.  There was a message that villains were taking advantage of the economic disenfranchisement of people in The Glades who generally had no hope.  Malcolm wanted to get rid of it all together but there was a focused mission for Oliver:  Save the glades and fix his father's legacy and redeem himself.  Where has that gone?  What is Oliver's purpose?  To be with Felicity?  To wallow in his own pain?  That's not enough for me.  We've gone from trying to save the city to trying hook up with Felicity in the clumsiest way possible?  That's what is failing me this season.  Bring other character's origin storylines because those at least have an endgame.  Oliver is lacking one now: that's the problem for me.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Betweenthisandthat

[SonofaBiscuit]

I don't know what the mission of the show is now.  I don't think it has one.

 

 

What is Oliver's purpose?  To be with Felicity?  To wallow in his own pain?  That's not enough for me.  We've gone from trying to save the city to trying to get a hook up?  That's what is failing me this season.  Bring other character's origin storylines because those at least have an endgame.  Oliver is lacking one now: that's the problem for me.

 

 

Guggenheim has mentioned that season 3 is all about identity.  Am I The Arrow, or am I Oliver Queen?  Obviously, we know that Oliver is pretty successful when it comes to being a hero.  But he's kind of a failure when it comes to being a human being.  I think that this season is about Oliver striving to be The Arrow and Oliver Queen, and the pieces have already started moving in place. 

 

Oliver went to Corto Maltese to retrieve Thea.  He's living with her, having popcorn movie nights, and slowly starting to tell her the truth about some of the things that he's kept from her (like the fact that Robert survived, made it to the life raft, but then killed himself).  He's trying to repair his relationship with the only family that he has left.

 

Oliver is actually starting to effectively mentor Roy.  He's training him (actually training him, not just advising Roy to slap some water) and refusing to give up on him. 

 

At some point, maybe Oliver will actually decide to fight to get his company back.   

 

Finally, yes, part of the point of this season is for Oliver to be with Felicity.  Romantic relationships are a part of life.  Normal human beings get to date, fall in love, get married, have babies.  Why can't Oliver have this too?  He can have this too and I'm hoping that along with The Arrow fighting crime, we're going to get to see Oliver's personal life again...see him doing normal people things like hanging out with his sister (check!), going to his friend's house for dinner (check!), or cooking a romantic dinner for his girlfriend.

Edited November 24, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[KirkB]

I guess I'm bitter about the fact the show has changed direction, and not in a good way. In season 1 Oliver was a man on a mission. He was trying to destroy the cancer eating away at his city (crime and corruption) by donning a hood and using his trusty bow to bring justice, or vengeance, or whatever you want to call it, by tracking down and eliminating the names in his father's book. Diggle and Felicity helped him see that while his cause was...admirable, understandable, again choose your own word here, he wasn't doing as much for the city as he could be and as a result he branched out to crime beyond the book. He has a bit of a breakdown at the start of season two after his utter failure, as he saw it, to stop the undertaking and save 500+ lives, one of them his best friend's. So he rededicated himself to his cause and was well on his way to helping clean up the streets when he was derailed by two things. Slade Wilson, a super criminal he helped create (which is good drama even if it is done in such a clumsy way) and the return of his old flame Sara Lance, now a costumed fighter in her own right. Slade should have been a personal nemesis but his story was instead a train wreck. Sara, on the other hand, began to dominate the show because she was in both the modern scenes and the flashbacks, which somehow had gotten even more prevalent. Season two ended by Sara leaving, which should have allowed the show to get back on track. Instead, they are going forward with Laurel as the Canary, who will apparently be literally dominating a whole chunk of the season while Oliver is possibly barely in it at all. I'm starting to question my continued interest in the show (which has lessened considerably because of both Laurel and Ra's) since it appears to be moving away from it's own original title, ARROW. I agree with the people who have said if they wanted to do Arrow and Canary, Justice League, or Smallville 2.0 they should have said that from the start so we'd know what we were in for. This is closer to bait and switch.

[calliope1975]

Guggenheim has mentioned that season 3 is all about identity.  Am I The Arrow, or am I Oliver Queen?  Obviously, we know that Oliver is pretty successful when it comes to being a hero.  But he's kind of a failure when it comes to being a human being.  I think that this season is about Oliver striving to be The Arrow and Oliver Queen, and the pieces have already started moving in place. 

 

I think this is what TPTB are going for, and they have set up some of these chess pieces. Unfortunately for me, I think the execution has been horrible. I feel like everyone is acting out of character because they are writing to plot. I hope it turns around.

[icandigit]

 

 

Too often she's used as the scape goat in really disturbing ways for what's wrong with the show when for me it's that the show has lost the focus from Oliver and a group of people (Diggle, Felicity and now Roy and possibly Laurel) fighting corruption and trying to live their personal lives at the same time.  I don't know what the mission of the show is now.  I don't think it has one.

As much as I love mocking Laurel And I do. The reason I'm barely watching this season is because there is nothing to show up for.  No team arrow.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm super aggravated because Sara had the LoA association.  There was no need to kill her and then come up with some convoluted plan that leads us back to the LoA/Ra's when we already had a character with the connections.  Sara knew that world, she lived that world.  If they had used Sara more sparingly this season, I would have been more than happy to have a full episode of Sara or Sara/Oliver infiltrating the LoA while showing us Sara flashbacks to her early days training with Nyssa.  That would have been awesome.  Ah, what could have been.

[statsgirl]

I've been calling it bait and switch all season.

 

I agree that the show should focus on Oliver and his origin story.  But I don't mind anyone else's origin story because either it's tied in to Oliver's (mentoring Roy; problems with Mirakuru) or it's done in small enough pieces that there is still lots of the Team Arrow I love (Thea, Felicity, Diggle).  Except for one character, and that is Laurel.  Her story took up a lot of the first two season and now so much of it doesn't even matter to the frame of the show (all that anger at Oliver, crushing on the Hood, hunting the Hood, addiction arc, getting fired, and at Sara, recovery) and now this season out of the first six episodes four were heavily focussed on her, much of it independent of the Oliver/Team Arrow stuff

and we're getting a four arc Laurel/BC road show in January and February.

 We'll see how much time Ray gets this season before I decide about him.

 

In order to watch a TV show, I have to get more that I enjoy than that which annoys me.  Much of the Oliver stuff has been iffy, I've liked Felicity and Roy, and Diggle when we got something of him, but there's been too much Black Canary origin story this season and it's a turn-off for me.  It's not completely bait-and-switch yet (it will be if Laurel ever co-leads the team with Oliver) but with less Oliver story, it's getting close.

[BumpSetSpike]

I just want to be thoroughly excited and obsessed with this show as I was for season 1 and season 2.  I used to watch episodes at least twice each week (and I admit to binge watching S1 a couple of times in between S1 and S2).  Oliver's journey was a fascinating story, Amell was so dang adorable and excited like a little puppy with his show (not anywhere near as much anymore), and the original trio was electric!  

It just isn't there anymore.  None of it.  I only watch the episodes once, and many times it is after it has been DVRd.  Amell's enthusiasm seems to have taken a hit and it is almost like every interview he is on the defensive now.  The original trio - let's face it, it is gone now and we are all here scrambling for scraps and glimpses of it to grasp on to.

 

I miss the passion *I* had for this show and I stick around in hopes that it will turn around but the future looks bleaker and bleaker with the next few episodes coming up after the crossover.  

Edited November 24, 2014 by BumpSetSpike

[Betweenthisandthat]

Finally, yes, part of the point of this season is for Oliver to be with Felicity.  Romantic relationships are a part of life.  Normal human beings get to date, fall in love, get married, have babies.  Why can't Oliver have this too?  He can have this too and I'm hoping that along with The Arrow fighting crime, we're going to get to see Oliver's personal life again...see him doing normal people things like hanging out with his sister (check!), going to his friend's house for dinner (check!), or cooking a romantic dinner for his girlfriend.

 

I only speak for myself but I find this a much less compelling than the season 1 arc.  Then I again I don't care enough about Olicity enough for this to be what I show up to watch.  I haven't seen that much of Oliver and Thea like I thought I would. I would be interested in Diggle and his dinners with Oliver if we could find out what's going on with Diggle too.  Maybe it's the way the season's been way it has been written, but I find it hard to go from larger themes that dealt with social inequality within the city and fighting one's demons and past to whether or not Oliver is going to be with Felicity this season.  There are ways to make that love story interesting, but what they've done so far this season is not working for me.  I just don't care that much, and I would hate if that was all this season really had to offer.  

 

The first season was able to focus on Oliver's difficulty to have a normal life but it was better at doing so.  We had Oliver interacting with his friends and family and lovers, and now it feels like his life has flattened and his purpose has been reduced because of that.  I have no problems with a romance but that's not what drew me to the show so that's my biggest problem with the season.  If there was a bait and switch it's that I thought I was watching a show about a man on his quest to be better in his personal life and his "profession" as the Arrow, that can include who he's with romantically as well as how he relates to everyone else in his life.  Now whether or not he'll get the girl is his central storyline and they've done it in such a bland way that it's shocking.  

 

As much as I'm indifferent about Olicity, their story might have been more interesting to me if they got together and we saw them struggle to make it work.  Oliver never had a problem starting a relationship.  He's been with seven women over the course of the show.  The difficult part is him keeping those relationships going because he usually failed at that.  If they built up Oliver and Felicity's romance differently where we saw them get closer and how Oliver slowly began to fuck up or doubt himself, that would be something I'd get my head around and would at least fit the idea of him fighting himself.  Instead what we've gotten has been limp, especially from his end.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Betweenthisandthat

[KirkB]

You've summed up a great deal of my own feelings more succinctly than I could, Betweenthisandthat. All I would add is that the show, and Oliver, seem to have lost the focus they had in the earlier seasons. What is the theme of the season? What story are they trying to tell? Or as you and I might put it, why should we care? We used to.

[calliope1975]

The first season was able to focus on Oliver's difficulty to have a normal life but it was better at doing so.  We had Oliver interacting with his friends and family and lovers, and now it feels like his life has flattened and his purpose has been reduced because of that.  

 

I really agree with this point. Part of the problem is they killed off his family and friends. I think the easy shock value of killing off Moira and Tommy was short-sighted and cut off some potentially interesting relationships and stories. And instead of opting for what may be the more difficult task of exploring these characters, they went for, yet another, "shocking" death. 

 

While I kind of like that the shows is pretty much in real time, I do think the jumps during the summer hiatus leaves a lot of stuff on the floor. As a shipper, I have my own imagination and can think what I want happened between Felicity and Oliver over the summer, but I do think for those who aren't interested in that aspect of the show, it might have been seen as abrupt. Just as when Oliver peaced out between S1 and S2, I was interested in what happened to these characters during that space. And it mostly gets ignored. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

There are ways to make that love story interesting, but what they've done so

far this season is not working for me.  I just don't care that much, and I

would hate if that was all this season really had to offer.

 

 

Problem is, I actually like the Olicity relationship, but I'm not at all enjoying how it is playing out either.  I'd say that the EPs have epically failed if they've managed to disappoint fans of the couple as well as those who are against or indifferent to the pairing. 

 

Maybe epic failure is the theme for the season.  Season 3A is being driven by the mystery of who killed Sara.  Does anyone fucking care?  I don't think that I've seen one person comment about how intrigued they are by this mystery. Most seem to want the murder solved so that we can move on to something more interesting. 

 

The EPs actually seem to be quite talented when it comes to disappointing an array of fans this season.  There are Olicity fans who are not happy with how the relationship is playing out, people who don't care about the romantic relationships who are not happy with how Olicity is playing out, fans of Sara who are angry that she's dead, people who dislike Laurel that are unhappy with what Sara's death means, fans of Oliver that are not happy that he will be

missing for a few episodes after the winter break

, etc.  Seems to me that the EPs have just managed to turn off a lot of fans with this season's storylines.

Edited November 25, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[NumberCruncher]

Maybe epic failure is the theme for the season.  Season 3A is being driven by the mystery of who killed Sara.  Does anyone fucking care?  I don't think that I've seen one person comment about how intrigued they are by this mystery. Most seem to want the murder solved so that we can move on to something more interesting.

No.

 

The EPs actually seem to be quite talented when it comes to disappointing an array of fans this season.  There are Olicity fans who are not happy with how the relationship is playing out, people who don't care about the romantic relationships who are not happy with how Olicity is playing out, fans of Sara who are angry that she's dead, people who dislike Laurel that are unhappy with what Sara's death means, fans of Oliver that are not happy that he will be

missing for a few episodes after the winter break

, etc.  Seems to me that the EPs have just managed to turn off a lot of fans with this season's storylines.

...except for comic canon fans. They seem relatively happy from what I've read. But your point is pretty close to where I'm at too. I won't say I'm bitter and angry (yet) but I'm disappointed because it seems like everything's been done in such a big hurry and it's been incredibly sloppy and uneven. They're also falling into the trap of trying to appease canon rather than letting storylines and characters grow organically. I don't hate that they base storylines and villains off of the comics, but they need to know where to draw the line. I'm not a big comic reader (I've read them sporatically throughout my life) but I absolutely love anything and everything comic-based that's on TV or in theaters, so I feel I have a relatively healthy reverence for the comic book medium, but I'm struggling this season because the underlying plot is revolving around an act whose main purpose served absolutely no purpose but to ensure a minor character becomes a major character "because comics" and I. Just. Don't. Give. A. Damn.

Before this season I at least had multiple storylines and relationships I cared about. Now...not so much. For the first time I'm forced to focus almost exclusively on Olicity because really, what other alternative is there? And even that's been a bit of a hot mess because again, everything is happening at lightning speed.

Edited November 25, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Password]

No.

...except for comic canon fans. They seem relatively happy from what I've read. But your point is pretty close to where I'm at too. I won't say I'm bitter and angry (yet) but I'm disappointed because it seems like everything's been done in such a big hurry and it's been incredibly sloppy and uneven. They're also falling into the trap of trying to appease canon rather than letting storylines and characters grow organically. I don't hate that they base storylines and villains off of the comics, but they need to know where to draw the line. I'm not a big comic reader (I've read them sporatically throughout my life) but I absolutely love anything and everything comic-based that's on TV or in theaters, so I feel I have a relatively healthy reverence for the comic book medium, but I'm struggling this season because the underlying plot is revolving around an act whose main purpose served absolutely no purpose but to ensure a minor character becomes a major character "because comics" and I. Just. Don't. Give. A. Damn.

Before this season I at least had multiple storylines and relationships I cared about. Now...not so much. For the first time I'm forced to focus almost exclusively on Olicity because really, what other alternative is there? And even that's been a bit of a hot mess because again, everything is happening at lightning speed.

I'm with you a lot. I've never thought the show is about Olicity but I'm increasingly watching it for that because everything else bores me. I was most looking forward to Merlyn and Thea because I just thought seeing Thea being a mini Moira would have been fun. But they haven't focused enough on that relationship and its crazy for me to be compelled by it. Them killing Moira off was a mistake because she brought such presence to the show. I really miss her. Oliver talk to mommy about your Felicity owwy...but oh wait THE SHOW KILLED MOTHER QUEEN. I'm annoyed for days.

Diggle has turned into a marriage counsellor/giver of WTF advice and baby daddy. Hive? Brother Andy? Did season 1 and 2 happen?

I don't care who killed Sara. She's dead, is there anything else? If the show doesn't stop hurting and killing off Oliver's friends and family, I'm done. I have little time for beating up a hero to an inch of his life. Ridiculous. And then he has to find balance during all of this? Whatever show.

Felicity, I am so stoked to say is being Miss Independent and it's so lovely to watch. Seeing her all wide eye'd and giggly at half naked men is WIN. Whom she's giggly over is an epic fail!!!!! People seem genuinely excited about Ray. I don't give a rats ass what faux Tony is doing...but I love what he's doing for QC. Suck it Palmer Tech.

I find myself dreading what the show will dish up for me instead of being excited. It's no way to live.

[NumberCruncher]

Felicity, I am so stoked to say is being Miss Independent and it's so lovely to watch. Seeing her all wide eye'd and giggly at half naked men is WIN. Whom she's giggly over is an epic fail!!!!! People seem genuinely excited about Ray. I don't give a rats ass what faux Tony is doing...but I love what he's doing for QC. Suck it Palmer Tech.

BWAH! "Faux Tony" is spot on.

Yeah, I loved Felicity as Miss Independent...until they hooked her up with her stalker.

[Orion]

They aren't pleasing all comic canon fans. Just in my very small sample group including my husband who loves BC and comics and about 10 of his comic loving friends have quit the show since S3E01. Three others are continuing to watch but are very unhappy. I'm not really sure who the EPs are pleasing at this point other than themselves it will be interesting to see how that works out for them. 

 

Something Sonofabiscuit said up thread really hit me about what has been missing this season. 

 

There is now no one on the show that isn't involved with either the hero or the villain storyline. Last season we had a few "regular" characters that grounded the story. We saw the real world outside the Arrow cave through Moira, Thea, Laurel, Walter, Sin. There was a sense of a larger world beyond what we were seeing whether that was actually through character interaction or just having the news on TV talking about events. Even locations that provided a real world feel like the Queen mansion are gone.  At the end of the day Oliver went home and we would see that. He had to take care of QC business and juggle being the Arrow. The universe of the show felt real.  I think that's one of the reasons I'm the most bitter about losing characters like Moira. I need regular people reacting to the superheroes to be able to relate to them. Even when things were at there most bizarre with Slade and Roy running around on Mirakuru we still had Moira hanging Christmas ornaments or Isabel complaining about Oliver going MIA from QC.  The extraordinary in the mix of the ordinary is what makes for compelling TV. When everyone is a special character then it is no longer special.

[NumberCruncher]

They aren't pleasing all comic canon fans. Just in my very small sample group including my husband who loves BC and comics and about 10 of his comic loving friends have quit the show since S3E01. Three others are continuing to watch but are very unhappy. I'm not really sure who the EPs are pleasing at this point other than themselves it will be interesting to see how that works out for them.

I'm sure there are some comic fans who aren't happy. I'm just going off of what I've observed on the official FB page where I still continue to see the majority of the "because comics" crowd arguments. Clearly there's an audience for it. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you want everything that happens in the comics to happen on the show then why the hell even bother watching the show when you already know how it ends?

 

Something Sonofabiscuit said up thread really hit me about what has been missing this season. 

 

There is now no one on the show that isn't involved with either the hero or the villain storyline. Last season we had a few "regular" characters that grounded the story. We saw the real world outside the Arrow cave through Moira, Thea, Laurel, Walter, Sin. There was a sense of a larger world beyond what we were seeing whether that was actually through character interaction or just having the news on TV talking about events. Even locations that provided a real world feel like the Queen mansion are gone.  At the end of the day Oliver went home and we would see that. He had to take care of QC business and juggle being the Arrow. The universe of the show felt real.  I think that's one of the reasons I'm the most bitter about losing characters like Moira. I need regular people reacting to the superheroes to be able to relate to them. Even when things were at there most bizarre with Slade and Roy running around on Mirakuru we still had Moira hanging Christmas ornaments or Isabel complaining about Oliver going MIA from QC.  The extraordinary in the mix of the ordinary is what makes for compelling TV. When everyone is a special character then it is no longer special.

I buy into this. The show has lost a lot of what keeps it grounded in reality because they've killed off so many characters and taken away any sense of normalcy by making everyone a superhero, but I think that again gets back to them being sloppy and trying to do too much with too many characters in too little time.

[Genki]

They aren't pleasing all comic canon fans. Just in my very small sample group including my husband who loves BC and comics and about 10 of his comic loving friends have quit the show since S3E01. Three others are continuing to watch but are very unhappy. I'm not really sure who the EPs are pleasing at this point other than themselves it will be interesting to see how that works out for them. 

 

Something Sonofabiscuit said up thread really hit me about what has been missing this season. 

 

There is now no one on the show that isn't involved with either the hero or the villain storyline. Last season we had a few "regular" characters that grounded the story. We saw the real world outside the Arrow cave through Moira, Thea, Laurel, Walter, Sin. There was a sense of a larger world beyond what we were seeing whether that was actually through character interaction or just having the news on TV talking about events. Even locations that provided a real world feel like the Queen mansion are gone.  At the end of the day Oliver went home and we would see that. He had to take care of QC business and juggle being the Arrow. The universe of the show felt real.  I think that's one of the reasons I'm the most bitter about losing characters like Moira. I need regular people reacting to the superheroes to be able to relate to them. Even when things were at there most bizarre with Slade and Roy running around on Mirakuru we still had Moira hanging Christmas ornaments or Isabel complaining about Oliver going MIA from QC.  The extraordinary in the mix of the ordinary is what makes for compelling TV. When everyone is a special character then it is no longer special.

 

@Orion & @NumberCruncher you guys really got me thinking, and I realised that I miss some the fun the show had with "hiding" Oliver's secret Identity. His lame excuses to Felicity which she called him on, the tension with Isabel, I loved "who taught you how to shave mister". Diggle's sarcasm about "black driver", etc.

 

I think the everyone knows angle works better on the Flash.

 

So this is just another thing that is missing in this season's Arrow.

 

Edited because: Damn autocorrect always changes Diggle to Giggle

Edited November 25, 2014 by Genki

[Danny Franks]

The 'comic canon fans', as far as I can tell, are made up largely of Katie Cassidy/Laurel fans who have been clinging to 'she has to be Black Canary and Oliver's love because comics' as their increasingly tenuous, unlikely 'proof' as to why everything will work out as they want.

 

Sadly, it looks like they might have been right after all. At least, in terms of the 'creative minds' on this show being slaves to that canon as these desperate fans are. Because Laurel is going to be Black Canary, despite never earning, deserving or looking like she was anything like a good fit for it. I wouldn't be surprised if she does ultimately end up being Oliver's endgame romance, either. These people do not have the creative ability to write and sustain a healthy relationship between charactes, from what I've seen. So if Oliver and Felicity get together at the end of this season, they'll be done by the end of season 4. No way these clowns will refrain from resorting to cheap drama to sour things between them, and it'll probably turn nearly everyone off the pairing.

 

But I'm glad I'm not watching, because Oliver's noble crusade, with the assistance of loyal and engaging friends, was my reason for watching the show. If that's falling by the wayside because these writers have too many pet ideas they insist on implementing, then it's no longer the show for me.

[blixie]

 

they haven't focused enough on that relationship

 

They aren't focused on ANYTHING other than getting Oliver to say some stupid ass variation of how ALONE he must be in every episode. MG: Did Oliver mention he should be ALONE, because he HAS to be alone, but he doesn't really WANT to be alone? Okay then our work here is done.

Edited November 25, 2014 by blixie

[SmallScreenDiva]

I wouldn't be surprised if she does ultimately end up being Oliver's endgame romance, either. These people do not have the creative ability to write and sustain a healthy relationship between charactes, from what I've seen. So if Oliver and Felicity get together at the end of this season, they'll be done by the end of season 4. No way these clowns will refrain from resorting to cheap drama to sour things between them, and it'll probably turn nearly everyone off the pairing.

 

Responding in Relationship thread

[NumberCruncher]

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/11/25/flash-reverse-flash-identity-spoilers/

 

Article about The Flash (with spoilers), but there is a bit from Andrew Kreisberg that was interesting in light of the conversation in this thread re:  meeting fan expectations

 

“I like to think that we’ve done a good job on both shows of meeting fans’ expectations and subverting them,” Kreisberg says. “The show has to appeal to everybody. It can’t just appeal to comic fans and it can’t ignore them either. We’re always treading this fine line of trying to bring something new, honoring what’s always been done and turning it into this brand new thing.”

This is why the whole trade-off theory applies now more than ever. They're giving the TV fans something (i.e. Olicity) in return for what they think comic fans demand (Laurel as BC). I don't have a problem with the trade-off, but I don't love that the Sara-is-murdered-so-her-sister-can-fulfill-her-comic-destiny has to take over everything else this season. :(

[tessaray]

I've been stockpiling S3 episodes (and S1 Flash) and need to find a way to either coexist with the bitterness and catch up enough to watch the crossover or delete them all and move on.  (Bitter and hooked on a show you aren't watching only works for so long...) Or maybe I should wait until they finish up the first half and then decide?  This show.  It's making me crazy and not in the fun way.

 

It's kind of ironic, because just when I was lowering my expectations , coming to terms with Sara and thinking of wading back in, I read all of the posts about the way they are writing Felicity and Team Arrow - not to mention  

the 3/4 LL/BC and Oliver-lite episodes coming up

- and it makes me wonder if I should even bother.  But I did like Secret Origins and obviously, still wish I was watching.   

 

I need some honest opinions from (how to put this politely?) any non-LL fans who have kept up with both shows.  Is The Flash worth sucking it up and binge-watching this weekend?      

Edited November 26, 2014 by tessaray

[calliope1975]

I need some honest opinions from (how to put this politely?) any non-LL fans who have kept up with both shows.  Is The Flash worth sucking it up and binge-watching this weekend?      

 

I really enjoy The Flash. You have most of the same superhero elements, but the tone is much more fun. Barry truly enjoys having his powers and being a hero. Team Flash is still gelling, but I think they have a good mix of characters. Wells is fascinating to me because I have no idea what his agenda is and if he's good/bad/grey/all of the above. You have paternal figure Joe, who is wonderfully played by Jesse L Martin. And Iris, the love interest, is smart, warm, funny, and has her own thing going on. 

 

Some of the dialogue is goofy, and the villains are mostly one note, but I think it's clear that all the good writers left Arrow for the The Flash. 

[NumberCruncher]

I would say The Flash is worth it. It's a guilty pleasure show and while I do find that they recycle certain Arrow motifs and character beats, the characters are interesting--Dr. Wells gives me Moira Queen levels of ambiguous vibes.

You can skip whole episodes of Arrow, IMO, and still be okay in understanding the crossover episodes. In a nutshell, Sara's dead, no one knows who did it but we do know it wasn't Komodo or Roy. If you like Felicity and Team Arrow, you should at least watch 3x07 to get an understanding of their mindset going into The Flash episode next week.

ETA:

 

Some of the dialogue is goofy, and the villains are mostly one note, but I think it's clear that all the good writers left Arrow for the The Flash.

Yep. Not only the good writers but good EPs too. :(

Edited November 26, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[tessaray]

Some of the dialogue is goofy, and the villains are mostly one note, but I think it's clear that all the good writers left Arrow for the The Flash. 

 

 

Yep. Not only the good writers but good EPs too. :(

 

Thanks for the input.

 

This explains a lot about S3.  I lose track of which EP is more aligned with which storylines, hence my skittishness re: The Flash. I don't need another show to make me bitter.  Arrow has that covered.  :-)