S01.E06: Cherry

[Beezella]

I am wondering where the rehab center is. Is it near Wind Gap, or closer to where Camille works? (Forget which "Big" town.) I am kind of assuming it isn't in Wind Gap because Camille's situation, or the depth of it doesn't seem to be well known in that small town. How far did Richard travel? It makes it even weirder if it was very far.

[TattleTeeny]

41 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

yes, the age gap makes no sense there. 

Amma's not in any flashbacks if I am not mistaken; the flashbacks are of Marion, not Amma.

[Beezella]

36 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

18 hours ago, Mothra said:

https://metro.co.uk/2017/10/04/metros-a-to-z-of-fetishes-o-is-for-orville-orthodontists-and-getting-thrown-out-of-pets-at-home-6938796/

 

i have dental phobia. this is one of the most sickening horrifying things i have ever heard of. some sexual fetishes are really crazy and the people need to be in intense therapy.

OMG! Me too, I couldn't even read that article.

[Mothra]

58 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

i have dental phobia. this is one of the most sickening horrifying things i have ever heard of. some sexual fetishes are really crazy and the people need to be in intense therapy.

I agree--just awful to imagine.  But I think it might be significant in that a lot has been made of the fact that the girls weren't raped.  If the murderer has dental fetishes, what he did might make these sexual crimes after all.  When the victims appear to Camille, their bloody mouths are always front and center.

Have you read "Berenice?"  It's very disturbing, and I can't help thinking that Camille's stepfather's name is Alan.

[Blakeston]

3 hours ago, rubinia said:

Yeah, there wasn't a weekly gangbang. It was where the team brought the most popular/lusted after cheerleader at the moment.

I think it would be pretty strange for Camille to refer to it as "the cheerleader of the week" if it didn't happen with some regularity.

If it was only a one-time thing (or a once-per-football season thing), I think she'd be more likely to say "their favorite cheerleader."

[Cyranetta]

Quote

All I can tell you that's occurred to me re: fans is that they stir the air; fans *stir things up* more than a/c does.  Those fans must be largely symbolic,

. . . and a fan blade can also be a "sharp object...

[Butless]

On 8/13/2018 at 3:36 PM, teddysmom said:

  Now I know why I don't attend the yearly lunch with old high school friends - "they're building that I 69 expansion so the Mexicans can walk up here and kill us".   

Maybe Camille could explain what feminism is to these nitwits. 

I cant <3 this comment enough ;p

Edited August 14, 2018 by Buttless

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

 

I think it would be pretty strange for Camille to refer to it as "the cheerleader of the week" if it didn't happen with some regularity.

If it was only a one-time thing (or a once-per-football season thing), I think she'd be more likely to say "their favorite cheerleader."

 

Maybe it's just a common and/or hyperbolic figure of speech, not intended to be 100% exactly perfectly literal, and thus not that important? Like when someone uses the expression "flavor of the week" for a thing that changes a lot but maybe not exactly once a week (and probably isn't really a "flavor").

Edited August 14, 2018 by TattleTeeny

[Butless]

20 hours ago, Mothra said:

I had this niggling in the back of my mind about an Edgar Allan Poe story about pulled, bloody teeth, and I finally remembered:

(from Wikipedia)

"Berenice" is a short horror story by Edgar Allan Poe, first published in the Southern Literary Messenger in 1835. The story follows a man named Egaeus who is preparing to marry his cousin Berenice. He has a tendency to fall into periods of intense focus during which he seems to separate himself from the outside world. Berenice begins to deteriorate from an unnamed disease until the only part of her remaining healthy is her teeth, which become the object of Egaeus' obsession. Berenice is buried, and Egaeus continues to contemplate her teeth. One day Egaeus wakes up from a period of focus with an uneasy feeling, and the sound of screams in his ears. A servant startles him by telling him Berenice's grave has been disturbed, and she is still alive; but beside Egaeus is a shovel, a poem about "visiting the grave of my beloved" and a box containing 32 blood-stained teeth.

Back to me:  There is no Southern Gothic without Poe, and it is Southern Gothic we're dealing with here.

This episode scared me.  The shifting  identities of the girls Camille was swinging around with, then ghost Marian telling her she wasn't safe there, made me too scared to go outside in the dark and bring in the bird feeder.  Thanks to Sharp Objects, the raccoons will feast on sunflower seeds tonight.

Edited to add:  Tooth-pulling is a genuine sexual fetish:

Odontophilia is a fetish for sex involving teeth, and it can range from licking a partner’s teeth or gently biting their skin to actually removing their teeth.

The use of dental props such as Jennings, Whitehead or Hallam gags, which are used in dentistry to keep the patient’s mouth open, may also play a part.

It’s something the Marquis De Sade wrote about, describing somebody called Boniface being sodomised while having sex with a woman whose teeth he was pulling out. Our dentist almost seems gentle by comparison.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/10/04/metros-a-to-z-of-fetishes-o-is-for-orville-orthodontists-and-getting-thrown-out-of-pets-at-home-6938796/

That just went from me agreeing with you about the show, to me fearing you because of what you know, loll

19 hours ago, Penman61 said:

I know what you mean, and I actually agree about John, but the second statement most definitely does not follow from the first, especially in a story where rape is, at best, blithely woven into the town's history and culture.

Johns not from there, though. They moved there not long ago.

[Butless]

6 hours ago, Mothra said:

You're right--there isn't any reason, any technical reason.  So I think we have to assume that the difficulty we have in hearing exactly what's being said is deliberate, and significant somehow.  I do watch with CC on and find it helpful, but not revelatory, so I tend to think that the poor sound quality is more to create an ambiance of murkiness and unease more than to conceal clues we should be looking for.  I think it's yet another aspect of this very arty show we have to allow to wash over us and influence how we feel, rather than what it means intellectually.  Which can be very frustrating to me, but I find I love the show more if I don't struggle against it too much, trying to make things more (or less) meaningful than they are.  As an English major, I'm constantly on the lookout for imagery and metaphor and allegory in a narrative.  I find I enjoy noticing things--like the crosses that keep popping up--without trying to decide what they mean, or if they're meaningful at all, but just noticing them as part of the work of art I'm being exposed to.

This is HBO. They know they have this problem and wont fix it. Theyre the reason I had to buy speakers. Been like this for years. 

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, Beezella said:

am wondering where the rehab center is. Is it near Wind Gap, or closer to where Camille works? (Forget which "Big" tow

I think he was gone all day. He sees Jackie as he is leaving and sees Jackie when he returns. And has a late dinner at the dinner. I think it makes more sense for her rehab to be near St Louis. 

[Butless]

3 hours ago, Mothra said:

I wonder if Becky was raped.  She is the only black cheerleader.  It looked to me that all the football players were white--in itself unusual, I think.  I wonder if racism protected Becky?

I took what Camille said about the cheerleader of the week as deflecting what happened to her. I think it was only  her.

[LeGrandElephant]

I haven’t read the book, but what would be the most unpredictable ending? Maybe Camille did it all - killed Marion, killed her roommate, and killed the girls in a wind gap (driving there and back secretly at night or whatever). Maybe she doesn’t even know it herself. 

[Butless]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

I think it would be pretty strange for Camille to refer to it as "the cheerleader of the week" if it didn't happen with some regularity.

If it was only a one-time thing (or a once-per-football season thing), I think she'd be more likely to say "their favorite cheerleader."

When she was talking about it, wasnt she affecting a rhetorical type of explanation with Dickie? She even asked him 'what if' it was consensual.

I took all of what she said to be deflection. I think it happened to her, and any other vulnerable girls like her maybe, but not all the cheerleaders.

The apologizer, Lacy, said he was haunted by that one time.

He would likely have also been involved or knew about the gangrape of his wife and all the women at his house that day. So, it was likely just Camille.

When the blood was flowing down her leg in that flashback, i thought it mightve been a rape related injury, but No they said it was her cutting.

Back to what a poster said earlier in the thread, whatever happened in the woods, it affected all participants in one way or another. I think the apologizer was harmed, obviously. But I just have less sympathy for him and any other boys. Especially next to the trauma it did to Camille. Those boys were old enough to know right from wrong, and its why he couldnt get an erection.  The fact that they "pulled a train" on her as opposed to forming a line and 'taking a turn', smacks of them learning how to think about and treat girls from porn. Which was plastered all over that shed. And Camille mightve learned it from there too. It seems like her sexual awakening came a few years earlier, when she was looking at the pictures in that shed. I think Camille had no love or affection in her life. I can see things she mightve been seeking , as opposed to Ashley who is only concerned with popularity, could have led her there that day, and it went wrong, as reality is harsher than still lifes.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Buttless

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, TattleTeeny said:

Maybe it's just a common and/or hyperbolic figure of speech, not intended to be 100% exactly perfectly literal, and thus not that important? Like when someone uses the expression "flavor of the week" for a thing that changes a lot but maybe not exactly once a week (and probably isn't really a "flavor").

That's what I said - that she used the expression "of the week" to mean that it changes with some regularity.

I never suggested that it was literal.

[Butless]

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

Those were actually vintage albums. The one at the very bottom is a Gil Ventura album and apparently some of his other album covers were even more explicit than the ones we saw! Check out these two! One of the other albums was by Billy Maxted and another was by Harry Bendler.

It was Lisa's husband who was jerking off on a copy of her credit card bill, which was odd but not nearly as creepy as some of the weird porn out there on the internet so I don't know why Angie made it sound like it was THAT bad.

 

That makes it even more perfect, thanks.

I thought the comment about jerking off on a credit card receipt  or whatever, was a way to say that he got off on his wife cuckolding him for his money? Its called financial cuckolding or domination.

I think shes referring  to the apologizer?  Im assuming hes married to the blonde hostess. Only because she looked hard at him and then Amma, in the previous episode. She also has a home full of crappy knickknacks.

She seems mean and shes definitely bossy. And he has guilt all mixed up with sex. So it fits.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Buttless

[TattleTeeny]

On 8/14/2018 at 6:40 PM, Blakeston said:

That's what I said - that she used the expression "of the week" to mean that it changes with some regularity.

I never suggested that it was literal.

Well, yeah, it's all a possibility; I just didn't find "of the week" to be telling one way or another. Personally, I'm kind of with another poster who suspects it was a deflection thing on Camille's part, partly because how many times could such a thing happen without word getting around and also because one former cheerleader seems to have married one of the perpetrators. Of course, I'm applying logic that people in this town may not possess or choose to ignore in the interest of keeping up the ruse they have going on there.

Edited August 15, 2018 by TattleTeeny

[ElectricBoogaloo]

45 minutes ago, Buttless said:

I thought the comment about jerking off on a credit card receipt  or whatever, was a way to say that he got off on his wife cuckolding him for his money? Its called financial cuckolding or domination.

I think shes referring  to the apologizer?  Im assuming hes married to the blonde hostess. Only because she looked hard at him and then Amma, in the previous episode. She also has a home full of crappy knickknacks.

Katie Lacey is the blonde woman who hosted Beaches Sobfest 2018 at her home with the cheap booze. Her husband Kirk is the one who apologized to Camille. 

Lisa, the friend with the short hair, is the one whose husband was jerking off on her credit card statement. Lisa’s husband is named Jack. She mentions this when she starts crying to the other girls about how he said four kids is enough.

Angie is the one with curly hair who drove Camille to movie night at Katie’s house.

Gretchen is the brunette who told Angie about Lisa’s husband. 

[Anela]

6 hours ago, smartymarty said:

I was surprised with Alan getting upset with Camille. At least in that one flashback on her birthday, he seemed to sympathize with her. Why does he now take Adora's side?

As someone said above, because Adora told him to. He has no spine, and doesn't want to lose Adora, I guess. On her part, I think she was testing loyalty, or making it clear that Alan would take her side. It just seemed like a Queen Bee move. 

[Mothra]

It just occurred to me (I spend way too much time thinking about this show when I should be thinking about other things) that all the fans we see are mirrored by the enormous fans at the ends of the hog sheds.

And could someone either correct or confirm my vague memory that there had been a similar murder, years earlier, in Wind Gap? 

Are we convinced that the murderer must be a man because of the upper body strength required to pull teeth?  We've been presented with John (Natalie's brother), Ann's father, Alan, the sheriff--I'm not counting Richard because he's from out of town--the Lacey guy (and is he the same guy as the high school music teacher Amma Lolitas?) are there any other named male characters who are candidates?  Does Adora know who the murderer is, and is she protecting him?  I'm assuming she was somehow responsible for Natalie/Ann's bicycle's being found in the hog waste pond, throwing suspicion on John.  That would point I guess to Alan, but I'm not sure Adora would protect him, except to preserve her own reputation.

I believe Camille when she contradicts her mother's saying that Camille chopped her hair off rather than have it curled--that was the story told about either Ann or Natalie--but that leaves us with all Camille's memories of having very short hair.  At the same time, though, she is shown as a cheerleader with long hair--I don't think such short hair would grow that long in less than a couple of years.  Is the memory of short hair a way Camille has of identifying herself with the murder victims? 

I'm kind of agnostic on cheerleader of the week.  I do think girls other than Camille were raped, but maybe not on a weekly basis.  Males on teams are notoriously apt to sexually assault women and do things they would absolutely not do if they were on their own.  A pack mentality takes over, and I don't think that would be a one-time, one-girl happening.  But I don't feel strongly about it.

And could somebody tell me the difference between "pulling a train" and gang rape?  Is "pulling a train" consensual?  Given the age of the victim(s), consent is impossible in this case, but maybe that's what Camille tells herself happened because she can't confront the horror.  And if so, is her cutting punishment for being a "bad girl?"

The scene where Camille remembers being swimming and the boys come by, and one of them threatens her, playfully, with a rifle--before or after the rape?

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, Mothra said:

... the Lacey guy (and is he the same guy as the high school music teacher Amma Lolitas?) ...

Yes.

Quote

The scene where Camille remembers being swimming and the boys come by, and one of them threatens her, playfully, with a rifle--before or after the rape?

I think she had short hair in that scene and I'm pretty sure the short hair is before the long hair so it would've been before the rape. But I'm not 100% sure on the timeline tbh.

[Jextella]

Just popping in to share that this show has been sort of helpful for me.  I have a mother who said things to me similar to what Camille's mother said to her while growing up, i.e. references to being a difficult child, weight-related comments, and personality issues.  I have a younger sister who was the opposite on all fronts and I never heard my mother say to her things like she said to me.  The other thing that is similar is that whenever I brought these things up as being hurtful to me, my mother dismissed me as being overly sensitive. Oh, and a father who deferred to my mother and was completely distant and said a few things of his own. 

I guess the one difference between my mother and Camille's is that I don't think my mother is as twisted as Camille's and the comments weren't quite as frequent or deep. And, she would never physically harm me.  Although, I'm not sure I ever feel entirely safe around her - at least emotionally or at times physically.

Regardless, I came out of that environment with an eating disorder that lasted 15 years and other forms of self-hurt that I struggle with today, and I am still unable to shake the feeling of being unloved...or maybe it's less loved or barely loved.  Can't tell which.  Whatever it is, it is engrained in my being and has been impossible for me to shake thus far.  

The show has made me see it all a little more clearly....kind of like looking in a mirror (although not as extreme as in Camille's case) at the past.  Sort of revelatory for me, actually. 

It's a dark story - far darker than mine - but super helpful and I imagine it is for others as well.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Jextella

[ChicagoCita]

On 8/13/2018 at 2:36 PM, teddysmom said:

How many times can you watch Beaches before you stop crying.

I saw it with my best friend in the theater, and afterward he told me his HIV+ status had progressed to full-blown AIDS.

Never gonna get a second viewing from me!

(I asked him later if he chose that particular movie because he knew he was going to tell me that night, and he was appalled. It didn't even dawn on him that there was a connection. Still, for me, it's inextricably linked to that awful announcement and I can't ever watch it again.)

[TattleTeeny]

Oh, you guys, yikes! I'm so sorry, @Jextella and @ChicagoCita. 

[SarahPrtr]

3 hours ago, Anela said:

As someone said above, because Adora told him to. He has no spine, and doesn't want to lose Adora, I guess. On her part, I think she was testing loyalty, or making it clear that Alan would take her side. It just seemed like a Queen Bee move. 

AKA Shit Testing.

[ChicagoCita]

I just had a thought. I'm not sure if it's a spoiler, but it's my theory on the killer:

• Spoiler

  • John said something like, "You know how bad Ashley's temper is."
  • Ashley's ear was bitten off (I only know this from this board, so thanks for pointing it out).
  • Both the dead girls had their teeth removed.
  • Neither of the dead girls was raped.
  • Ashley was trying to get a large blood stain out of the carpet.

  Could Ashley be the killer?

   

Edited August 15, 2018 by ChicagoCita

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

Lisa, the friend with the short hair, is the one whose husband was jerking off on her credit card statement. Lisa’s husband is named Jack. She mentions this when she starts crying to the other girls about how he said four kids is enough.

Ah, well there’s the explanation. Jack doesn’t want another kid and the paper could have been prepared for some kind of clean up. 

What’s the difference between pulling a train and taking a turn? I assumed Camille just used a different phrase for the same thing.

[SarahPrtr]

I like all the FU moments Camille pulls on Alan and Adora - gulping down the drink at the wake and slamming down the glass and storming out of the change room at the store in just her bra and undies when Adora wouldn't shut up, and giving the finger to Alan.  Yeah, you show 'em, Camille!  I would've been too scared to do that to my parents when I was younger, but now, I don't give a shit.  If they yell, I'll yell back.  If they curse at me, I'll curse back.  If they hit me, I'll hit them back.  It's a life with that part of your fear removed, and it's very freeing.  I see why people live their lives without giving a shit.

[Accidental Martyr]

19 hours ago, Luckylondon said:

 

I also get the feeling that Adora had something to do with Camille’s sister’s death. Her cause of death is left unexplained except that she was “always sickly” and we saw her in the spinning flashback with Camille getting more and more weak and skeletal like. It makes me think there is some kind of Munchausen by proxy situation in which Adora hurt one of her daughters, by keeping her ill, due to the attention and sympathy it brought her. 

 

I have the same feeling.

 

In the preview for the next episode Amma says, “You know what’s the best thing about getting wasted? Momma takes care of me after.” Then in another shot we see Adora and it looks like she’s giving someone (Amma or Marian?) a spoonful of something and she says, “A little of the sweet before the bitter.” Wasn’t there a scene a few episodes back where we see Amma on the floor looking like she’s having some sort of attack/seizure?

Edited August 15, 2018 by Accidental Martyr

[ElectricBoogaloo]

7 hours ago, Mothra said:

I believe Camille when she contradicts her mother's saying that Camille chopped her hair off rather than have it curled--that was the story told about either Ann or Natalie--but that leaves us with all Camille's memories of having very short hair.  At the same time, though, she is shown as a cheerleader with long hair--I don't think such short hair would grow that long in less than a couple of years. 

Just for reference, I bleached sections of my hair from the root to the tip and colored them bright pink so for the first time, I have been able to see exactly how long it takes my hair to grow. It took two years for my hair to get as long as teen cheerleader Camille's is in the flashbacks. Has anyone on the show said how old Camille was when Marian died? Camille's hair was short when Marian was still alive and at the funeral. The gang rape happened in ninth grade so theoretically the long hair could fit the timeline depending on when Marian died (assuming that Camille let it grow it after she initially cut it).

[Mothra]

Now officially totally losing my mind over this show.  Like the Berenice/teeth thing, "Camille" was niggling my brain.  "La dame aux camellias" is a story by Dumas about a courtesan who is supported by lovers who give her gifts.  She is called the camellia lady because when she is menstruating, she wears a red camellia; when she is sexually available, she wears a white camellia; she dies of consumption (TB).  There are movies, plays and an opera based on this story.  But what relationship could that have to this show, other than the name Camille?  The name of the heroine in the Dumas story is Marguerite, French for daisy.  And the blood, first assumed to be menstrual.

Remember when Jackie is seen by Richard removing some flowers from the shrine for Natalie, and she tells him that she thinks daisies are more appropriate for young girls, "fresher," I think she says?  Well, there goes my brain.  There is no plot-justifiable reason for Jackie to say this, so I think it must be an intentional nudge by the director.  Who is French.

And why is Camille's editor so intent on her writing about these murders?  What newspaper would pay for a reporter to spend this kind of time writing "background" material?  And BTW, there's his wife, another loving black woman who seems to have genuine affection for Camille, for those of us on racism patrol.  Some have suggested he's her father, which I have trouble believing, but he clearly has some interest in her beyond being her boss, and he's worried about her mental state.

Her mental state:  I think she's crazy.  I'm beginning to suspect that "Amma" is really Camille, in Camille's mind.  I'm beginning to suspect that either/or Marian's death/rape by the football team was so traumatic that it shattered Camille's sanity into multiple personas.  Adora keeps telling Camille that such-and-such undesirable part of her is from her father; what if "Amma" is the part of Camille that she inherited from her mother ("Mama")?  Does Camille every actually interact with Adora and Amma simultaneously?  She spends time observing Amma with Adora--dancing to Tupac, for instance--is she watching herself?  Or remembering her relationship with her mother?

[jeansheridan]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The gang rape happened in ninth grade so theoretically the long hair could fit the timeline depending on when Marian died

Why 9th grade? I don't recall a specific grade.

I just checked. I honestly thought there were two actresses playing Young Camille. She was 16 or 17 when they filmed but wow I thought short haired Camille was 12-13 and older Camille 16-17. Plus the boys with the guns looked younger than the football jocks.

Hair can grow fast, especially at that age. Plus her hair wasn't crazy long. Plus long haired Camille is cutting and depressed. Short haired Camille still had joy.

Edited August 15, 2018 by jeansheridan

[Mothra]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Just for reference, I bleached sections of my hair from the root to the tip and colored them bright pink so for the first time, I have been able to see exactly how long it takes my hair to grow. It took two years for my hair to get as long as teen cheerleader Camille's is in the flashbacks. Has anyone on the show said how old Camille was when Marian died? Camille's hair was short when Marian was still alive and at the funeral. The gang rape happened in ninth grade so theoretically the long hair could fit the timeline depending on when Marian died (assuming that Camille let it grow it after she initially cut it).

That's what we need to know.  Because the same actress is playing Camille during both time periods, I am assuming that the short hair (or "short hair") was pretty nearly simultaneous with the rape and the long hair.  Or maybe I'm intent on believing that the short hair is all in--not on--her head (a little Sharp Objects humor there).  But there has to be a reason that the same story--a mother trying to curl the daughter's hair and the daughter rebelliously cutting her long hair extremely short--is told by Natalie's mother and by Camille's mother.  Further identification with the murder victims.

[bijoux]

9 minutes ago, Mothra said:

 

Does Camille every actually interact with Adora and Amma simultaneously?  She spends time observing Amma with Adora--dancing to Tupac, for instance--is she watching herself?  Or remembering her relationship with her mother?

All three went shopping together in the last episode for one thing, so yes.

[jeansheridan]

15 minutes ago, Mothra said:

but he clearly has some interest in her beyond being her boss, and he's worried about her mental state.

I don't think the boss is so complicated. Camille needs a character to talk to outside of Wind Gap. Also, she has no friends or family. When that happens your coworkers become more important. I see this in a lot of workplaces. Coworkers temporarily become family at times, especially when illness is involved. At this moment in his life he is going through chemo and he knows she is ill. They both have narrow worldviews right now. So there is this closeness. It may be temporary or last longer. I have former coworkers that are dear friends now. 

But on this show, he is just a neutral third party so she can talk out her ideas. Otherwise we'd watch her typing on her laptop.

16 minutes ago, Mothra said:

Now officially totally losing my mind over this show.  Li

Mothra if you can handle grossnes, you might enjoy the TV show Hannibal. Symbolism galore. Very deep dive sort of show. :)

Edited August 15, 2018 by jeansheridan

[ElectricBoogaloo]

53 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Why 9th grade? I don't recall a specific grade.

From S1.E4:

Camille: So, for various reasons, this is what they call the end zone, double entendre intended. This is where the football team would have their way with that week's lucky cheerleader. 
Richard: Ninth grade, you said. 
Camille: Yep.

[Mothra]

11 hours ago, Jextella said:

Just popping in to share that this show has been sort of helpful for me.  I have a mother who said things to me similar to what Camille's mother said to her while growing up,

Me too.  Probably why I'm so obsessed with the show.  I'm glad it's helping you deal with things--I think it's driving me right over the edge!  Maybe because I'm feeling it a little personally, it's hard for me to accept the literality of a lot of what we're seeing.

[carrps]

2 hours ago, Mothra said:

She is called the camellia lady because when she is menstruating, she wears a red camellia; when she is sexually available, she wears a white camellia; she dies of consumption (TB).  There are movies, plays and an opera based on this story. 

...

There is no plot-justifiable reason for Jackie to say this, so I think it must be an intentional nudge by the director.  Who is French.

 

I never knew this! I saw the Garbo movie when I was kid, but given the squeamishness of American movies back then I'd assumed it was left out. Either that or it went completely over my head.

Well, the director is French-Canadian which could make a difference.

[LeGrandElephant]

6 hours ago, Mothra said:

Her mental state:  I think she's crazy.  I'm beginning to suspect that "Amma" is really Camille, in Camille's mind. 

Ooh, that could work. I do think there’s going to be some big reveal that Camille and/or her perspective isn’t what we think. 

The short and long hair in the flashbacks is confusing. It would make more sense if the long hair came first and then she suddenly cut it off, but other aspects make them seem the other way around. 

[TattleTeeny]

That was mixing me up at first too--hacking off one's hair seems like it could be a response to some kind of trauma, so my brain reversed the flashback scenes or something. Or I was drunk.

[Mothra]

I'm backing off my Camille-is-Amma position after rewatching that shopping expedition.  When I saw it the first time, I felt like there were no interactions among Adora, Camille and Amma that wouldn't work with Camille and Amma being the same person, but now I don't think so--and thanks to Bijoux who pointed me to that scene.  I think it's pretty conclusive that they are separate women.

But I still do think the hair-cutting is significant, and I believe Camille (for once!) when she tells Adora she didn't do it.  I think Camille's memories/dreams/visions of herself with hacked-off hair is that sort of melding of persons that can happen in dreams, with her melding herself into the murdered girl (Natalie?) whose mother reported the same story Adora did.

And can we ignore all the damn roller-skating?  It looks like so much fun--they skate fast!  Do kids use that kind of skate, though?  Should they be inline skates?  The boys, apparently, do not skate.  "Little girls" skate; these girls skate but they do it dressed very seductively, not looking like little girls at all.  Amma's dollhouse is a little girl's toy, but an elaborate dollhouse like that can also be an older woman's hobby and obsession.  The Vulture recaps point out that Camille's room does not exist in the dollhouse--there's the door but only space behind it.  I think the position of Camille's door in the real house is odd.  All the other rooms are fairly easily accessible from the staircase, but Camille's room, which is on the same level as the other bedrooms, has to approached through a sort of corridor.  I would have expected the stairs to open at the top more in the middle of the upstairs, to make a balanced upper hallway.  I'd actually like to see a blueprint!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

25 minutes ago, Mothra said:

Do kids use that kind of skate, though?  Should they be inline skates? 

I’ve seen lots of people with old school/non-inline skates recently. A friend of mine frequents the local skate park and there are lots of girls with regular skates there. She’s been taking roller skating classes at a dance studio for over a year now, so apparently regular roller skating is popular enough to have weekly classes!

[Butless]

On 8/14/2018 at 7:41 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Katie Lacey is the blonde woman who hosted Beaches Sobfest 2018 at her home with the cheap booze. Her husband Kirk is the one who apologized to Camille. 

Lisa, the friend with the short hair, is the one whose husband was jerking off on her credit card statement. Lisa’s husband is named Jack. She mentions this when she starts crying to the other girls about how he said four kids is enough.

Angie is the one with curly hair who drove Camille to movie night at Katie’s house.

Gretchen is the brunette who told Angie about Lisa’s husband. 

Thank you. I will probably never remember this, though. The reason I cant learn these names is in partly because the volume is so damn low with HBO, and partly because all of the characters except for the  apologist Kirk and the nice cheerleader Becky could be interchangeable. Theyre all deeply shitty narrowminded small town assholes. Is Wind Gap another term that means flatulence?  Cause that;s all I hear when they open their mouths.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Mothra said:

I think the position of Camille's door in the real house is odd.  All the other rooms are fairly easily accessible from the staircase, but Camille's room, which is on the same level as the other bedrooms, has to approached through a sort of corridor.  I would have expected the stairs to open at the top more in the middle of the upstairs, to make a balanced upper hallway.  I'd actually like to see a blueprint!

I have noticed this weird staircase and tried to figure out its exact construction, because it's strange that someone has to go all the way around in order to get to her room at the end.  When she and Amma snuck back in the house, Camille shows her how to make a shortcut by climbing over the railing in front of her door.  Since the staircase goes all the way there, why wasn't that railing open to the stairs, like the other side?  I want to see the blueprint, too.

[TattleTeeny]

I love that other people want blueprints! I drive my BF crazy with that (particularly the house in one of the Paranormal Activity movies). And then, on top of obsessing over the blueprints, I can barely understand flat renditions of 3D things anyway (I can't read a map and forget about those mall guide things!) so what is even the point?

[Butless]

On 8/14/2018 at 7:58 PM, Mothra said:

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It just occurred to me (I spend way too much time thinking about this show when I should be thinking about other things) that all the fans we see are mirrored by the enormous fans at the ends of the hog sheds.

Yes; this: theyre all pigs for the slaughter in Wind Gap. And the executioner is Adora , and Amma, on her own plain.

 

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Are we convinced that the murderer must be a man because of the upper body strength required to pull teeth? 

This author seems to like to write about female predatory behavior, so Im thinking the murderer will be female.  Youd have to be strong enough, big enough and angry enough as a woman, to pull out all those teeth. Dick had a hard time doing it, and he has the strength of a small monkey compared to the female characters on the show.

I can think of one female character who has all three of those  factors; strength, leverage and most importantly, the level of anger.

What I dont understand is any significance to pulling teeth. That does smack of a male fetish; something sexual, in itself.  Whereas if the murderers reasoning is that the person said something horrible and it angered them, youd go after the tongue or lips. Not the teeth. Minus a sexual angle, the pulling out of the teeth would be done just because you could, i guess, and to mutilate the victim. Or maybe, say, they had been bitten by the victim?. But would they have been bitten by two different girls? Even if those girls were friends and both were biters (at 12 or 13? thats really odd) , what is the likihood the murderer would have been bitten by both of them?

Can anyone else thing of a reason why a murderer would pull out those victims' teeth?

I dont think Adora has the upper body strength to  wrestle a 12 year old, let alone pull out their teeth.  If this is a tandem killing team, Im going to cry foul. That would just be so far out on the outlier. The town is shitty, its not a cult.

 

 

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I believe Camille when she contradicts her mother's saying that Camille chopped her hair off rather than have it curled--that was the story told about either Ann or Natalie--but that leaves us with all Camille's memories of having very short hair.  At the same time, though, she is shown as a cheerleader with long hair--I don't think such short hair would grow that long in less than a couple of years.  Is the memory of short hair a way Camille has of identifying herself with the murder victims? 

People keep talking about this as if Camille's an unreliable narrator. I havent read the book, so I dont know if the book is played up to be that way. But I got no indication that the show was ever presenting all these flashbacks as being those of a possibly unreliable narrator. Camille is presented as clear-eyed on this show. She's a cutter, and as far as I know, they arent related to any metal illness that have  delusion or psychosis as a side effects. So there's no reason for me to think she is remembering the past at all.  She lies to  Kirk Lacey about not remembering what happened in the woods with him and the other boys obviously because she mentions the fact that he couldnt get an erection.  Believing you were responsible or deserved a sexual assault isnt the same as being an unreliable narrator, as scores of people who are sexually assaulted have a very difficult time coming to terms with it. And for her, this was a betrayal x 5 or 6 (boys).

 

 

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I'm kind of agnostic on cheerleader of the week.  I do think girls other than Camille were raped, but maybe not on a weekly basis.  Males on teams are notoriously apt to sexually assault women and do things they would absolutely not do if they were on their own.  A pack mentality takes over, and I don't think that would be a one-time, one-girl happening.  But I don't feel strongly about it.

Somehow I may have forgotten the age she mentioned was of a freshman football team , which is even more mindbreaking because 14 year olds are truly on the childish side of the teen years. Even in Wind Gap, I tdont think a freshman football team can get away with gangraping all the cheerleaders. A tradition of gangrape is beyond the pale.  A weekly one beggars reality.

I think if they did it to anyone other than Camille, they picked the vulnerable girls, like any predators do. The promiscuous ones, the ones who drink or do drugs, the ones who are poor or from broken or ill-reputed families. So that they can deflect the blame of the rapes back onto them, and no one is bound to believe those girls.

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And could somebody tell me the difference between "pulling a train" and gang rape?  Is "pulling a train" consensual?  Given the age of the victim(s), consent is impossible in this case, but maybe that's what Camille tells herself happened because she can't confront the horror.  And if so, is her cutting punishment for being a "bad girl?"

Another poster asked this also. 'Pulling a train 'refers to at least two males on a female, with the male genitals linking  them; ie, looking like train cars. Its a sexual term that makes my hair stand up, in how it objectifies the female person involved (all of them, really).  I have nothing against the sexual practice at all , when its consensually practiced by adults. But it is almost always said in the context of  the men degrading the woman (girl , here) involved, when it isnt a private act, as with the football team. And it;s something so frequently seen in porn, that 14 year old boys would think it was somewhat acceptable to do to a classmate, in this particular case. 

I  just said "taking a turn' to define the difference between that M-F-M sexual ac, that's typically seen in porn, as opposed  to standing in line and having sex in a M&F act.  Typically packs of men (or boys, here)  use the 'pulling a train ' act as a way of male bonding, such as with football teams, like in this story. The woman is just an object that is used.

 

 

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The scene where Camille remembers being swimming and the boys come by, and one of them threatens her, playfully, with a rifle--before or after the rape?

I thought it was from a few years before the rape. Shes not only looks and dresses younger, and her sister is alive.  She's dead on her birthday/ the gangrape day, where her hair is long.

 

22 hours ago, bijoux said:

Ah, well there’s the explanation. Jack doesn’t want another kid and the paper could have been prepared for some kind of clean up.

Mystery solved. Kind of.  Why were the credit card bills right there ? Were they  fighting over the bills and it broke out into sex? Or was he making a really gross point about how they couldnt afford any more kids?

 

21 hours ago, Accidental Martyr said:

 

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In the preview for the next episode Amma says, “You know what’s the best thing about getting wasted? Momma takes care of me after.” Then in another shot we see Adora and it looks like she’s giving someone (Amma or Marian?) a spoonful of something and she says, “A little of the sweet before the bitter.” Wasn’t there a scene a few episodes back where we see Amma on the floor looking like she’s having some sort of attack/seizure?

 

Was there? I recall a scene where Adora's holding Amma on the floor, but Amma seems to be having some kind of  tantrum more than a seizure.  Amma seems physically hale and healthy all the time.  Like a force of nature.

 

14 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I don't think the boss is so complicated. Camille needs a character to talk to outside of Wind Gap. Also, she has no friends or family. When that happens your coworkers become more important. I see this in a lot of workplaces. Coworkers temporarily become family at times, especially when illness is involved. At this moment in his life he is going through chemo and he knows she is ill. They both have narrow worldviews right now. So there is this closeness. It may be temporary or last longer. I have former coworkers that are dear friends now. 

But on this show, he is just a neutral third party so she can talk out her ideas. Otherwise we'd watch her typing on her laptop.

Mothra if you can handle grossnes, you might enjoy the TV show Hannibal. Symbolism galore. Very deep dive sort of show. :)

 

i dont think hes needed at all. Hes there much like the black characters of Becky and Gayla, and that is solely to show us that Camille is a good person and worthy of love. Its unnecessary. The audience can see for themselves that Camille is a sympathetic character. It really comes off to me as her having a wizened old fatherlike champion, like in a lot of older films, with a female lead.

Hes the man behind the woman, sort of thing. Newsflash: women go through trauma, some so horrible that it leaves all sorts of emotional and physical scars on them, that cripple them. And you know what? They survive, more or less. And they overwhelmingly do  it alone.  Men can come , men can go; and the women roll on.

This crutch of a male champion  of female protagonists in movies is just that, a crutch, and Id rather see something more realistic, for once.   Camille doesnt need Richard, or Alan, or the sheriff, or her creepy editor who orders her around like he knows whats best for her when he doesnt know  the depth of the shit she is in with Adora and her hometown, to validate her. To bolster her. Or to champion her. She's come this far on her own; she's strong enough to handle this on her own.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Buttless

[Mothra]

I just rewatched episode 2, and I want to write down a couple of things that struck me before I forget them. 

In his conversation with Camille, her editor in telling her to dig deep for details and color when she's writing about Wind Gap says "Don't go gentle" which is a well-known near-quotation from the Dylan Thomas poem about dying--"Do not go gentle into that good night; rage, rage against the dying of the light"--which seemed a very strange thing to say to her, especially since he is the one who is (apparently) dying.

In the same episode as we see Richard pulling out the pig's teeth with pliers, we see the police chief using pliers to repair the damage done to the stop sign.

"A cry for help" is also mentioned twice in this episode.  Richard tells the police chief he thinks the murderer took a risk in posing Natalie's body right in town, that it would have been easy for someone to have seen him; the chief says that maybe he wants to be caught--"it's a cry for help."  When Camille asks the police chief why he didn't take the little boy's statement about the woman in white seriously, the chief tells her that the kid is not reliable, that he tells tall tales about where he's been with his mother, like Disneyland, and that his stories are "a cry for help."

None of this may mean anything, but it seemed odd to me, especially given that imo nothing in this series is put into the show casually or by accident.

 

2 hours ago, Buttless said:

Hes the man behind the woman, sort of thing. Newsflash: women go through trauma, some so horrible that it leaves all sorts of emotional and physical scars on them, that cripple them. And you know what? They survive, more or less. And they overwhelmingly do  it alone.  Men can come , men can go; and the women roll on.

This.  Just this.

Although Adora has positioned herself as the one person who protects the grieving families from unkind intrusions and worries about how they'll ever get over this, who says it's her duty to look after the families of Wind Gap, Camille, it seems to me, bears the burden of suffering for the sins of the town.  I think the cross references, even the "sacrifice" of the rape(s), and especially the blood sacrifice of her cutting indicate her role as not quite scapegoat and not quite Christ figure, but something between.  In a larger, shallower, sense, this is the role of all the women in Wind Gap, starting with Milly (Camilly?) Calhoun, who suffered rape and torture and the loss of her baby as a burden of love to save her husband, whose "sin" was more than fighting for the South, more than abandoning his pregnant young wife--and this is the sacrifice the town celebrates annually. 

[Jlyblylvr]

I have not read the book, and I haven't watched the episodes as closely as some of the posters here. But Wind Gap (and by extension, many of its citizens) reminds me of a person who has been traumatized but does not realize yet that they are behaving in response to their trauma. Camille is the person who seems to be the most outwardly dysfunctional - the all-black clothing, the alcoholic drinking, the scars, the refusal to be polite - but she is the one who seems to be getting closest to the truth of what happened with the murders. Amy Adams mentioned in an interview that as Camille gets closer to discovering the truth about the murders, she gets closer to discovering the truth about her family. I hope that the story has a satisfying conclusion and we find out what is at the heart of the Crellin-Preaker family dysfunction.

[Butless]

1 hour ago, Mothra said:

I just rewatched episode 2, and I want to write down a couple of things that struck me before I forget them. 

In his conversation with Camille, her editor in telling her to dig deep for details and color when she's writing about Wind Gap says "Don't go gentle" which is a well-known near-quotation from the Dylan Thomas poem about dying--"Do not go gentle into that good night; rage, rage against the dying of the light"--which seemed a very strange thing to say to her, especially since he is the one who is (apparently) dying.

In the same episode as we see Richard pulling out the pig's teeth with pliers, we see the police chief using pliers to repair the damage done to the stop sign.

"A cry for help" is also mentioned twice in this episode.  Richard tells the police chief he thinks the murderer took a risk in posing Natalie's body right in town, that it would have been easy for someone to have seen him; the chief says that maybe he wants to be caught--"it's a cry for help."  When Camille asks the police chief why he didn't take the little boy's statement about the woman in white seriously, the chief tells her that the kid is not reliable, that he tells tall tales about where he's been with his mother, like Disneyland, and that his stories are "a cry for help."

None of this may mean anything, but it seemed odd to me, especially given that imo nothing in this series is put into the show casually or by accident.

That's odd that they would say it was a cry for help, because usually what is said , is that the killer  staged the victim , because he wanted to shock th eonlookers, because its a Fuck You to the town/neighborhood/city/ cops, and that they frequently put the victims on display publicly to admire their handiwork and delight in the horror  and fear it causes  the witnesses. Cops also know  that frequently, the killer is nearby watching the gruesome display unfold. So who was there when they found her? The older man & woman who cam out of the back door to the alley and found her, and then John  &  Amma and her posse across the street?

Sometimes they will match images in editing a story for no other reason than that the two images mirror one another in some way. Im hardpressed to think what those two images mean on a deeper level other than  what they convey: the sheriff concerned about law and order and keeping up appearances in town, and Dick is doing the nitty gritty innovative work on a deeper level, in order to solve the crime.

How did Camille carve her thigh up and expect that it wouldnt be seen by the other cheerleaders when they are wearing  short skirts that fly up?  Hows she going to ascend a pyramid formation , etc, and not get a hand on her leg  or someone see up her skirt?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, Buttless said:

How did Camille carve her thigh up and expect that it wouldnt be seen by the other cheerleaders when they are wearing  short skirts that fly up?  Hows she going to ascend a pyramid formation , etc, and not get a hand on her leg  or someone see up her skirt?

Not every cheerleader is necessarily a flyer. It’s the tiniest girls who are usually the designated flyers on the squad. The other girls are the bases (the ones who stay on the ground). There are also high school squads that mostly do poms and dancing without stunting.