S09.E23: Do You Believe In Miracles?

[dr pepper]

I just realized something. The boys' most perverted fan has a whole new piece of Wincest action to write about, Sam retreiving his own demonic powers boy drinking Dean's blood.

[Zanne]

Sam retreiving his own demonic powers boy drinking Dean's [bLANK].

 

 

This is like an episode of The Newlywed Game!

 

 

ETA: Ha! Too late. Guess what I just saw at the top of my lj feed.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Zanne

[NoWillToResist]

 

Okay. That's funny. I got a good laugh at that.  First time I've smiled thinking about my poor Dean :(. So thank you for that.

 

Heh, no worries. Honestly, if you're bummed, there is a ton of fabulous stuff on tumblr where fans are - bless them - finding the potential for humour in this. For instance:

 

- Sam traps Dean in a demon trap in revenge for not doing the dishes

- Sam and Cas keep spray bottles of holy water around to spritz Dean if he starts acting too demon-y

 

There is some truly inspired hilarity out there. It will help get me through the hiatus, for sure.

[catrox14]

LOL at the spray  bottles like he's a cat.  That's funny.  Thank you.

[Mulva]

I loved it!  I loved the Crowley/Dean bromance, and Jared did a superb acting job during Dean's 'death'.

[Demented Daisy]

Hated it.  Hate the idea of Demon Dean.  Hate the idea of a Crowley/Dean bromance.  

 

I have no idea where they're going with it, but I doubt they know, either.

[smree]

I really liked this episode and the ending. Really hoping they stick with demon Dean for a while and go all out. Want to see Dean versus Crowley for King of hell and ultimately Sam saving his brother.   

[Mia-667]

I hate that, after all the fighting Dean has gone through, he's become the thing he's always hunted.

I hate that, after everything Castiel has given up to protect Dean, he thinks Dean is dead. I'm honestly not sure if it's worse that Dean is a demon instead of dead.

Sam, get your ass started on those hell trials, y'hear? And start by curing your brother!

I hate that he's become the thing that killed his parents and grand-parents too. But I loved the finale. Because I have hopes Sam will make it right this time and look for a way to bring his brother back. But not the trials, maybe find a way to free Michael, with all the angels help, and trick Demon Dean into getting possessed by the archangel to cure the Mark of Cain. Because I can't think of anything stronger than Lucifer to cure that curse.

Also, who's better than Michael to lead the angels, maybe even fix Cass' grace.

Since this show loves parallels-- both brothers possessed by an angel and turning into a demon --and if season 10 is to be the final one, that would be a good way to end it.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Mia-667

[Linderhill]

 

 

Awww, when Castiel saw the typewriter, i was hoping he'd go to it and type something like:

Suddenly, a truck ran over Metatron.

Why didn't this happen instead of MetaBooger's monologuing?

[rue721]

I think the main problem with the idea of betrayal here is that some of the audience didn't think it was a betrayal but more that it was a violation of Sam's agency. IMO Soulless Sam letting Dean be vamped was far worse violation of agency for far worse reasons.

 

Right before Dean comes back as a demon, Crowley has that long monologue where he makes a big point of saying that he never actually *lied* to Dean about what was happening to him (w/r/t everything related to Cain, I think), he just didn't tell the whole truth. I think that's similar to how Dean didn't actually lie to Sam about Gadreel possessing him, he just left out the stuff that he knew would make Sam say no. So I don't think it's just Sam-being-possessed and Dean-being-made-demonic that are paralleled, I think it's also Dean (and his choice w/r/t Sam) and Crowley (and his choice w/r/t Dean) that are paralleled.

 

Then, *right* before Dean "wakes up," Crowley says that it's not death he's feeling, it's a *new* kind of life. So I do wonder if Dean is still dead? And I also wonder why Crowley "wakes" him by saying, "see what I see, feel what I feel." Why would Dean -- even as a demon -- be seeing/feeling the same things as *Crowley*? Wtf is Crowley even seeing/feeling? Does Crowley just mean that Dean will see/feel things as a demon? Why would Crowley care about that, what good does a demon!Dean wondering the earth with a MoC and the FB do him? Demons aren't loyal or friendly compared to humans, Crowley knows that.

 

Thinking about it, they also made such a big point of Crowley becoming humanized right when Dean was becoming more monstrous because of the MoC. Are they for real trying to link those characters' journeys? I hope not, and I don't even understand why they would. Not that I get Crowley anyway, so *shrug.*

 

I guess that Crowley has his eye on Dean as his heir? When Gavin came back, he was blabbing on about the "prince of hell" idea so much, and I guess Gavin was there to make us see Crowley as paternal...?

 

This is sort of out of the blue, but the ending also made me wonder about why the show decided to throw in that not actually logical but Hallmark-level-sweet/sappy episode, Bad Boys -- mostly because it came at such a strange time. I actually like that episode OK despite it making no sense, but it came out of nowhere and then never effected anything again. I guess they wanted to end the Fall half of the season with a super clear message of Dean-is-a-good-person so that it would be a bigger deal or people would stick with him without being annoyed in the Spring half of the season? Another reason I bring that episode up specifically is that there's all this stuff about "choice" going on with Sam's SL in the first half of the season, and how Dean kind of denied him choice over whether he lived or died, and then the second half of the season builds up to Crowley kind of denying him choice over living or dying, too (and Sam maybe summoned Crowley to make that happen? Idk) -- and that episode specifically seemed like it was about choice/not-actually-having-choices.

 

This is actually why I get annoyed with the show for how they structure their seasons so randomly and sloppily -- there are just a bunch of random episodes that repeat the same theme and are tied together because they're thematically the same, whereas if the show structured the season so it had mini-arcs built into it, there would be more opportunity to actually explore the theme and build on it from mini-arc to mini-arc. So that it would feel like the stories were going somewhere thematically instead of just getting repetitious.

 

Gadreel's story seems like it relates to choice, too, though tbh I'm not sure how and am too tired to think about it in depth at the moment. I hate that he died! Why?! Why do they insist on killing the best characters and leaving behind the shitty ones? Of course Hannah and Metatron survived, of course. My heart broke for him as soon as he was back in that cell. To see him basically lose his mind and decide that he could still redeem himself by committing suicide if it meant busting out Castiel, only to see that Hannah was STILL ALIVE after that?! Fuck me. Hannah had the fucking KEY. She could have just LET OUT Castiel, Gadreel didn't have to die for that shit. He maybe could have *threatened* to die in order to force Hannah into letting out Castiel, if Hannah was so eager for Gadreel not to kill himself, he didn't have to actually do it. But I guess he also just couldn't stand to be in the prison anymore, he just hadn't had the courage to actually commit suicide yet, so when the opportunity came up where it made sense for him to do it, he took that opportunity -- they kind of covered that same thing with Tessa, when she also did some weird angel version of suicide-by-cop. UGH THESE ANGELS THEY ARE THE WORST.

 

ETA:

 

Wait, I guess Gadreel died because of the "life for a life" thing the show has been doing -- the thing of, if you save one person, the consequence is that another person suffers? When Dean decided to save Sam, in a Monkey's Paw roundabout kind of way, that led to Kevin's death. So Dean unwittingly traded Kevin's life for Sam's. When Castiel stuck with Dean instead of his Angel Army, that also in a Monkey's Paw roundabout kind of way, led to the imprisonment and Gadreel's death. So I guess that Castiel unwittingly traded Gadreel's life for Dean's. Though obviously nobody within-show is sad that Gadreel is gone, so nobody's going on vengeance missions over that one.

Edited December 20, 2014 by rue721

[supposebly]

 

So I don't think it's just Sam-being-possessed and Dean-being-made-demonic that are paralleled, I think it's also Dean (and his choice w/r/t Sam) and Crowley (and his choice w/r/t Dean) that are paralleled.

 

If they are trying to force that, I'm really not on board. I don't care that Crowley "betrayed" Dean. It's in his job description. It's not really a betrayal if you work with a guy for a while who usually isn't to be trusted unless it serves his needs. They know who and what he is.

 

I don't see how Crowley's "betrayal" is in any way equal to what Dean did to Sam. The closer you are, the bigger the betrayal is when trust is violated. I don't see a big betrayal here. Working with Crowley, it shouldn't come as a surprise that  things go bad in the end. As Meg said: Crowley is always the problem.

 

Dean betrayed Sam's infinite trust in him that he would never do anything to hurt him and would not do something that goes completely against Sam's wishes and what he stands for. I also see taking away someone's agency as a huge betrayal in and of itself. They go together for me and can't really be separated.

 

I think if there is any parallel to be drawn, it's maybe that Crowley is Dean's Ruby. He is helpful once in a while. Someone you trust under duress or because you don't feel like there is anyone else. Mostly, because you've isolated yourself from the people that you should actually trust.

[rue721]

I don't care that Crowley "betrayed" Dean. It's in his job description. It's not really a betrayal if you work with a guy for a while who usually isn't to be trusted unless it serves his needs. They know who and what he is.

 

Yes, I don't think anyone should be shocked when the King of Hell fucks someone over. But I do think it's interesting that the *way* he fucked Dean over was pretty much the same way that Dean fucked over Sam. Especially since Sam's issue with Dean lying (by omission) about how Dean was going to save his life, was that Dean wouldn't admit that he'd done it for himself. They had that big fight back at the bunker, when Sam was basically like, "just admit you did for your own sake!" and Dean couldn't. Crowley seemed to actually be taking responsibility for manipulating Dean for his own gain, more than Dean had been able to take responsibility for how saving Sam was also for himself. I guess being a demon makes self-deception less necessary, lol.

 

I think if there is any parallel to be drawn, it's maybe that Crowley is Dean's Ruby. He is helpful once in a while. Someone you trust under duress or because you don't feel like there is anyone else. Mostly, because you've isolated yourself from the people that you should actually trust.

 

Yes, I think that Crowley is Dean's Ruby. At least Dean is consistent. He has good taste in women, but has no instincts for men. Which is funny, imo, because Sam is pretty much the opposite.

[Demented Daisy]

DEAN

Listen to me. It's better this way.

 

SAM

What?!

 

DEAN [gasping]

The Mark. It's making me into something I don't want to be.

 

 

Will never stop breaking my heart.

[catrox14]

Dean's face...as Sam is running towards him ..is just .....too much....

 

[DittyDotDot]

I really thought I'd like this episode better in hindsight. It really has nothing to do with Dean becoming a demon--I mean I'm not happy for Dean or anything--but the episode itself just doesn't hold my interest. I actually fell asleep watching it twice, then the third time I realized I wasn't even paying attention about half way through, I finally gave up. This has been happening to me quite a bit throughout S9. I think there's just so much happening that I'm not sure much of anything really happens in the end. It's the season finale and Dean is turned into the one thing he would never, ever want to be. It should be epic and important, but in the end, I kinda feel like "so, Dean's a demon, okay." ::shrugs::  Shouldn't I feel outraged or worried or excited or...something? Sorry, I'll move along...

 

Marvatron talks too much and I'd rather he just shut up. Mark Sheppard is a treasure even if I still wish someone would stab Crowley in his face. Cass needs something to actually do. Sam and Dean didn't especially feel like Sam or Dean, but that was probably the actual point, so whatever.

 

Good to end on: I finally finished this re-watch. Only took me 9 months, but I'm done y'all!!!!! Whew!

Edited February 6, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I think the problem was too much Marvatron and his stupid pleading to the masses. And the monologuing. I thought Dean would drop dead of boredom listening to Monologuatron go on and on. By the time Dean hit him the first I was ready for Dean to kill me with the First Blade.

But when Dean was stabbed after getting the blade back in his hand, I gasped and cried and shouted "Nooo"....because I really did not expect that at all. So well played with that bit.

Jensen and Jared broke my heart during Dean's final words scene. "I'm proud of us" with the Dean's music playing.

I will say that I just really didn't think they would actually turn Dean into a demon. But as it was building to that conclusion I kept thinking no no no...they wouldn't really...no....you assholes. I screamed and then cried.

Fuck you, show. It still hurts and it always will.

Edited February 6, 2015 by catrox14

[Goldmoon]

Other than Marvatron's pointless posturing, this was an enjoyable ep.  I do wish the boys hadn't been on the outs all season though.  It left a sour taste for the whole thing in retrospect.  And as I have watched this for the first time after having already watched what has been aired of season ten, I know that Dean gets cured far too fast, and is not especially amusing as Dark Dean.  TPTB must have been afraid of making Dean so different than his factory settings.  Oh well.  Gadreel finally redeemed himself to me.

[Diane]

Ok i have just binge watched this series for the first time and have watched all 9 seasons in about 3 weeks.  I really thought at the end even Crowley seemed tired and a little sad too.  I also don't understand how he got in to the bunker before Sam summoned him?

[catrox14]

Dang dcm! Welcome to the family. I think you might hold the record for fastest binge watch!

 

I think it has long been a question fandom has wondered about but my head!canon is Crowley is powerful enough to ignore the summoning if he really wants too or can delay his arrival OR he was following Sam around and snuck in when Sam brought Dean back to the bunke

Edited April 13, 2015 by catrox14

[Diane]

Dang dcm! Welcome to the family. I think you might hold the record for fastest binge watch!

 

I think it has long been a question fandom has wondered about but my head!canon is Crowley is powerful enough to ignore the summoning if he really wants too or can delay his arrival OR he was following Sam around and snuck in when Sam brought Dean back to the bunke

Thanks, I think my head is swimming and I keep wondering why I only learned of this recently.  It's a good show, I have enjoyed it.

[catrox14]

I know exactly how you feel. I refused out of being pissed off about the cancellation of Angel because of this show (which is probably not really true) so I refused to watch it out of spite. LOL AT ME.

[mertensia]

I suspect Crowley had his eyes on Dean. If he personally did not watch the Dean/Metatron fight someone who reported to him did. When it was reported Dean had died and Sam had grabbed him he made sure someone was watching to see where Sam went with Dean (and they were probably ready to interfere in case Sam decided on a hunter's funeral) then simply appeared at the bunker.

[DittyDotDot]

The problem isn't that he knew when to appear, it's that he was able to appear without the key or an invitation--the bunker is supposed to be warded, right? I know...it's Crowley and Crowley seems to get a pass on cannon infractions all the time...whatever.

Edited April 15, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[mertensia]

But Sam was summoning him. That gives him an invite. He simply appeared somewhere besides the Trap. He did that in the season 7 finale too.

[DittyDotDot]

Crowley says, "Sam is summoning me right now." Obviously, Sam had not yet extended an invitation...which is really rude and presumptuous for Crowley to arrive not only early, but without an invitation, too! ;)

 

In the S7 finale, they had summoned him earlier, but he was stuck in a devil's trap. He didn't show up before they summoned him. Plus, Rufus's cabin was not warded against all evil like the bunker is supposed to be. They keep saying nothing can get in, but apparently angels and demons can stroll in there all the time. That's the logic fail there.

Edited April 15, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[mertensia]

He invaded Sam earlier in the season. Maybe he left a command for Sam to leave an invitation sigil.

[catrox14]

Crowley was getting a massage IIRC when Dean was summoning him. The room started shaking and there was a rumbling noise. The masseuse said he was being summoned by a Winchester. Then we saw Dean strike a match and throw it into whatever dish held the whatever summoning stuff. We just didn't hear Dean do the incantation.

In Sam's case we didn't hear him do the incantation but we saw him light the match. Sam said "Crowley, you got him into this and you will get him out of it, or so help me God", then he struck a match. Then the scene cuts to Crowley standing in the doorway to Dean's room and Crowley says "At this moment, your brother is summoning me.." and he goes on with his speech. So Crowley knew he was being summoned and I can fanwank that Sam said the incantation after he lit the match. So maybe once they start either part of the process Crowley knew already and could delay his arrival.

Dean would have had to alter the devil's trap in the dungeon to let Crowley out to help him get to the blade. Maybe the altered Devil's trap makes it so Crowley didn't have to appear at all but he just assumed Sam was going to summon him because it was expected. Perhaps Sam just didn't realize it had been altered or was in too much grief to notice.

Now my current head!canon is that maybe Crowley had enough humanity in him to not be bound immediately by the summoning ritual and could delay his arrival as needed or was able to slip past the warding. Maybe Crowley has known all along how to slip a devil's trap but didn't use it because he needed to be able to get into the bunker when wanted.

Edited April 15, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

It's not really all that important because the writers will never be consistent about it, but I wouldn't mind if they at least tried. Back when they got the key from Henry that blind MoL guy, whose name escapes me right now, said the bunker was warded against everything and the only way in was with the key--not just for supernatural/evil things, but humans as well. They also gave the key to Kevin at the end of S8 so he could get in, but then Dean was able to get in when Kevin was locked inside (presumably with the key) at the start of S9. Having knowledge of the key does not make the key appear, right?

 

I just find it rather silly they keep saying the place is warded and safe and so powerful, but in the next episode show that not to be the case. So, I'm sticking with my original theory...it's Crowley and Crowley always gets to do whatever he wants on this show.

 

 

 

In Sam's case we didn't hear him do the incantation but we saw him light the match.  Sam said "Crowley, you got him into this and you will get him out of it, or so help me God", then he struck a match. Then the scene cuts to Crowley standing in the doorway to Dean's room and Crowley says "At this moment, your brother is summoning me.." and he goes on with his speech. So Crowley knew he was being summoned and I can fanwank that Sam said the incantation after he lit the match. So maybe once they start either part of the process Crowley knew already and could delay his arrival. 

 

I  just find it hard to believe the magic would work (letting Crowley slip the warding) until the ritual was completed. I also would think the ritual would have to be done in the proper order or it won't work, but that's probably just me.

[Demented Daisy]

It's the same old, same old.  It works until it doesn't (or vice versa) as dictated by plot.  The Colt, Ruby's knife, ghosts and salt circles (sometimes they can throw open a window and blow the salt away, sometimes they can't), Holy Oil burning demons, etc etc etc.

 

It's tiresome, to be honest.

[catrox14]

Maybe they just aren't showing us the entire ritual anymore because it's kind of a rote thing for the audience possibly. Or they cut it for time.

Maybe they wanted to us to wonder how Crowley got in just for the sake of mystery. Or even to make us a little bit afraid of Crowley again before we see he's turned Dean into a demon. To remind us that Crowley is powerful and scary.


As far as Dean getting back into the Bunker they explained that as being possible when Kevin reset the system after it was on lock down,. Kevin said something like maybe it was reset and Dean said okay let's go with that.


As long as they at least give e me some dialogue to explain it. Like in bloodlines with the shifter lore. If they would have had one chracter explain why they didn't goo shift I would have been unhappy but I would have swallowed it. Or with the reaper Angels.

Edited April 15, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

As far as Dean getting back into the Bunker they explained that as being possible when Kevin reset the system after it was on lock down,. Kevin said something like maybe it was reset and Dean said okay let's go with that.

 

Actually, I believe Kevin said the system was reset by Dean using the key to get back in. Kevin didn't even know the system was reset until after Dean came in and they noticed Dean had service on his phone.

From the Devil May Care transcript:

It's back online. Maybe when you opened the door from the outside door, it reset the system.

 

Granted he didn't say Dean used the key, but if the only way in is with the key...

Edited April 15, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

Granted he didn't say Dean used the key, but if the only way in is with the key...

 

Or maybe...

 

[DittyDotDot]

Perhaps, but would you really hid the key to the bunker in a fake rock? Again, it doesn't really matter in the end and I can go with most of their "this is how it is except when it isn't", I just wouldn't mind them thinking these things through a bit more or at least made it look like they took the effort anyway.

[rue721]

LOL that was a joke, I don't think they use a Hide-A-Key.

Edited April 15, 2015 by rue721

[Altered Reality]

I figured the boys found the spare key when they were setting up shop in the bunker, so they now each have a key on them.  Otherwise the logistics of who goes where and when and who has the key becomes impossible (even getting groceries becomes problematic~if one goes either they are locked out or the other one is locked in). Without this fanwank, my head starts to hurt and I have enough headaches as it is ;D

 

As for warding, IIRC, the old MOL guy said the place was warded against everything evil not everything supernatural. I suspect that even if the MOL believed in angels, they wouldn't be classed as evil, hence why an angel could get in.  And because of Cas, the boys likely wouldn't have added angel warding.  I would also think that there would need to be a qualifier on that "everything", meaning everything the MOL knew about.  I doubt they knew (or could predict) Crowley :D

 

Oh and here's another line of thought.  I'm not sure, but didn't Crowley bring the First Blade with him?  Maybe the link between the Blade and the Mark is strong enough to overcome any warding?

[catrox14]

Actually, I believe Kevin said the system was reset by Dean using the key to get back in. Kevin didn't even know the system was reset until after Dean came in and they noticed Dean had service on his phone.

From the Devil May Care transcript:

 

Granted he didn't say Dean used the key, but if the only way in is with the key...

 

Okay. I couldn't remember exactly how that dialogue went. My point was to address that a bit of dialogue can address these questions. That question was addressed. Which is why I used that Bloodlines example of something needing to be addressed.  As far as Crowley getting into the bunker, I think there are a few ways to get around it. It bugged me at first but not really anymore.  Crowley has also been able to get around nearly everything. 

 

I like to think that Crowley was sneaking in and out of the bunker just for his own amusement.

[DittyDotDot]

As for warding, IIRC, the old MOL guy said the place was warded against everything evil not everything supernatural. I suspect that even if the MOL believed in angels, they wouldn't be classed as evil, hence why an angel could get in.  And because of Cas, the boys likely wouldn't have added angel warding.  I would also think that there would need to be a qualifier on that "everything", meaning everything the MOL knew about.  I doubt they knew (or could predict) Crowley :D

 

This is the problem with using the word "evil". Generally, they've used the word "evil" to describe the supernatural in this universe, IMO. What exactly brands something as evil is a good question, though. Are we talking about evil as in bad...well then most the angels definitely qualify, IMO. This is probably just me, but I've always considered angels as "evil" in this universe. They seem to presented that way--they're definitely not good--although, some can be, but most aren't, IMO.

 

Are shifters all evil because of their shifter nature, or are the shifters we've met so far evil because they do evil acts? Are there are other shifters out there who are living regular lives and don't bother anyone also considered evil? So, logically, some shifters could get in the bunker, but others couldn't? Wouldn't they still need the key though, which would negate the warding anyway? How does the bunker know what to allow and what to not without the key? But then it raises the whole question of why Sam and Dean would need the key if other supernatural beings can get in without it too?

 

This is a real chicken and egg thing they got going on, don't they?

 

I assume the warding is against species and they'd have to do a separate warding for each type of "evil". So, personally, I accept angels gaining access because I would assume the MoL didn't see a need to ward against them specifically--they probably didn't realize they were dicks and should be kept out for that purpose alone. I do take issue with anything supernatural, being able to stroll in without the key or an expressed invitation that would magically negate the warding somehow--like a summoning.

 

LOL that was a joke, I don't think they use a Hide-A-Key.

 

Yeah, I know. Sorry, I have a hard time conveying sarcasm over the internet.

[supposebly]

Can someone remind me when an angel got access to the bunker without either being in Sam, which means Dean invited him or Cas, who would also be invited?

 

I might be misremembering but there is a lot I repress since season 8, so that means a lot of plot and logic is dropped into the dark pit of my denial that that season ever happened.

[Altered Reality]

I don't remember the episode title, but Gadreel, once he was kicked out of Sam and after he realized what a douche Metatron was, came to "talk".  And Dean slashed him with the First Blade.

This is the problem with using the word "evil". Generally, they've used the word "evil" to describe the supernatural in this universe, IMO. What exactly brands something as evil is a good question, though. Are we talking about evil as in bad...well then most the angels definitely qualify, IMO. This is probably just me, but I've always considered angels as "evil" in this universe. They seem to presented that way--they're definitely not good--although, some can be, but most aren't, IMO.

 

Are shifters all evil because of their shifter nature, or are the shifters we've met so far evil because they do evil acts? Are there are other shifters out there who are living regular lives and don't bother anyone also considered evil? So, logically, some shifters could get in the bunker, but others couldn't? Wouldn't they still need the key though, which would negate the warding anyway? How does the bunker know what to allow and what to not without the key? But then it raises the whole question of why Sam and Dean would need the key if other supernatural beings can get in without it too?

 

This is a real chicken and egg thing they got going on, don't they?

 

I assume the warding is against species and they'd have to do a separate warding for each type of "evil". So, personally, I accept angels gaining access because I would assume the MoL didn't see a need to ward against them specifically--they probably didn't realize they were dicks and should be kept out for that purpose alone. I do take issue with anything supernatural, being able to stroll in without the key or an expressed invitation that would magically negate the warding somehow--like a summoning.

 

 

Yeah, I know. Sorry, I have a hard time conveying sarcasm over the internet.

Oh the whole "what is evil" discussion (in Universe) is a huge headache inducing puzzle.  I'm going to think some thoughts (and go to work~I'm already 1/2 hour behind) and get back to this later.

 

BTW, not being able to log on from work is a PITA.

[DittyDotDot]

Can someone remind me when an angel got access to the bunker without either being in Sam, which means Dean invited him or Cas, who would also be invited?

 

Gadreel, as Altered Reality said, and didn't Cass just show up once, too?

[GirlyGeek]

Rewatch was satisfying. And I *might* have something in my eye after that last Dean/Sam scene. Yes, it sucked to have them at arms length all season, and I never doubted that Sam was a lying liar about not saving Dean, but it sure was heartbreaking to see Sam panicking while Dean spun into darkness. And the parallel between Dean dying in Sam's arms and Sam dying in Deans in AHBL was nice. Sam always gets me with his crying, like in NRFTW (ugh! Sob!).

Forgot how much I began to like Gadreel and then they have to kill him, of course. But I'm a huge Helo from BsG fan, so TP can do no wrong :). While I dislike MetaTron, I find him amusing 50% of the time, so there's that. Crowley can stay.

I'm going to continue my rewatch with what's aired of S 10, but I have to say it was really cool to start at episode 1 and watch all 9 seasons, not skipping anything, over the last couple months. With fresh eyes, I've reallt fallen in love with SPN again, the good, the bad and the less bad (lol).

[catrox14]

I'm putting this here for now, but I've asked the mods for another thread..because it's behind the scenes and is spoilery but I dunno where else to put it.  It's VFX BTS rendering.  I was blown away by Jensen's eyes here. 

 

Okay this is the scene when Dean opens his eyes...and honest to gods for me Jensen's eyes are fucking scarier than the black eyes....I kid you not.  What say you all?

 

It's around t the 2:25 mark. Trying to find a gif.

 

https://vimeo.com/98053077

Edited April 23, 2015 by catrox14

[sarthaz]

Thanks for sharing, catrox14.  Really neat.

 

I remember enjoying this episode when it aired, and I liked it again on rewatch.  There are some great performances here, even Armstrong, who does a nice job becoming obsessed with his own mythology.  What I can't get over during this whole season, though, is how pathetic the angels are.  They're a bunch of douchebags and soccer moms hanging out in a cross between mission control, a cop show squad room, and the break room at your local Wal-Mart.  And this is the big "Angel Army"?  Ugh.  No wonder Cas doesn't want to lead these losers?  Not even Crowley could create a Hell worse than that.  Remember when Cas first appeared to Dean?  That was epic, an entire episode devoted to the sheer enormity of it.  I miss that.  Rafael?  Gabriel?  Those guys were great.  Earlier in the season, Metatron tells Castiel he's the only one with any spunk.  I guess that's because we've killed all the fun angels, and all that's left is the soccer moms.  I have a hard time believing Hannah can even tie her own shoes.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

• It doesn't seem very smart to have all the ingredients to call a demon in the dungeon when you're trying to lock someone up.
• I'm confused about Marv's plan for/about humanity.  Did he want humans to worship him like God?  Or did he want to destroy them?  
• Wait - Sam and Cas shut and bolted Dean in the dungeon.  But when Dean called Crowley, the doors were open behind him.  Continuity error?  Dean obviously didn't need Crowley to get out of there.
• How is Dean's body not strong enough for the Mark when he was the True Vessel for Michael - the most powerful archangel?  Pfft.
• Buggering off and howling at the moon - I thought that's what the annual Vegas trip was for.  I guess the show forgot about that.
• Woman gets hit by a car and everyone just stands around saying "she's dead."  No one calls 911 or checks for a pulse.  Nice.  Especially the dude with his hands in his pockets behind Marv.  
• Thought Marv closed the door to heaven but any two random angels can reopen it?  That's not too secure.  They could let anyone in.  And the doorway to heaven is an spirograph doodle.
• I wish Sam wouldn't have said "I get it" and "I know" so much this episode.  Because I don't get it and I don't know - and I'd like to know what Sam thinks he knows in regards to Dean, because none of that made sense to me.  Was that supposed to be making up for his 'we're not brothers' speech?  Cause it didn't do it for me.  Neither did the "I lied" or the summoning Crowley.  After all the time he spent acting all pissy toward Dean about Gadreel (who turns out wasn't so bad after all...) (and Season 8), it might very well be a case of too little too late, imo.  Damn, I hate that.  I don't want want to not like Sam, but that's where the show keeps pushing me.  
• Aw. the red haired Angel in the homeless camp was one of the few good ones, trying to protect humanity like he was supposed to.  I'm sorry he had to die.
• I also blame the Cubs on Marv.
• Why didn't Dean just shove the blade into Marv while Marv was he was spouting off instead of listening to him?  Classic mistake.  Go for the kill.  Don't let the bad guy monologue.
• And...once again Dean is beaten to a bloody pulp.  Cause we haven't seen that before.
• I really don't like Hannah.  She's a total hypocrite.  So Dean deserved to be 'punished' by being killed by Cas, but Cas did the right thing letting Marv live, despite all the deaths on his hands?  
• Dean's "I'm proud of us" was the best.

ETA: And now it's on to Season 10.  Yay?

Edited August 16, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

After all the time he spent acting all pissy toward Dean about Gadreel (who turns out wasn't so bad after all...) (and Season 8), it might very well be a case of too little too late, imo.  Damn, I hate that.  I don't want want to not like Sam, but that's where the show keeps pushing me.

Welcome to the Carver years. After these first two seasons, I really began to wonder exactly what Carver thought of Sam as a character, because come on, that's not a way to treat one of your leads who the audience is supposed to like (I thought, anyway.)

I took the rest of this over to the "Bitterness..." thread, just in case.

[Demented Daisy]

9 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

ETA: And now it's on to Season 10.  Yay?

Well, IMO, 10 is better than 9... marginally.  

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

ETA: And now it's on to Season 10.  Yay?

Glass half empty: it's kinda more of the same; glass half full: the overall tone of the show is less bitchy. 

Maybe not uppercase YAY, but yay? ;)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Well, IMO, 10 is better than 9... marginally.  

 

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Glass half empty: it's kinda more of the same; glass half full: the overall tone of the show is less bitchy. 

Maybe not uppercase YAY, but yay? ;)

I'll take marginally and less bitchy as a win at this point.  :)

[Dobian]

So...he's a Deanmon now.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, Dobian said:

So...he's a Deanmon now.

I prefer demon!Dean myself but yes he is a demon