OUAT vs. Other Fairy Tales: Compare & Contrast

[Lexx]

I was watching the trailer when I realized with horror that I was feeling uncomfortable.  Not because of anything I was seeing, but because I instinctively thought of how toxic Belle and Rumple are.

Thanks, OUaT.  You may have contaminated a beloved part of my childhood.

[CCTC]

It looks like it is well done and a beautiful movie to watch, but it also looks like it is not going to offer anything new, just a live action version of the animated movie.  Cinderella was interesting, because it offered a different interpretation of the the story.  Still, Beauty and the Beast is one of Disney's best films, so an overly faithful, but well done live action version of it would still be pretty kick-ass.

[Camera One]

Cinderella's trailer also made it seem like it would be identical, but they made some logical changes.  And Emma Watson has also mentioned some changes like 

Spoiler

explaining Belle not fitting in with the provincial town because she was an inventor like her father.

[CCTC]

Cool - I should know better than to judge a movie by its trailer.  At the very least, it looks like a well-made production.

[orza]

The Disney version of Beauty and the Beast doesn't have much to do with the traditional story. The Beauty was pretty much a spoiled dumb bunny in the Villeneuve and Beaumont versions of the story. Oh, wait, that isn't much different than the show. The Disney movies are not the gold standard for any fairy tales. They are sanitized and sugar-coated and embellished to the point that they barely resemble the stories they are very loosely based on.

Edited November 15, 2016 by orza

[MostlyC]

Robin McKinley wrote a terrific take on Beauty and the Beast.  I remember really enjoying it.

[pezgirl7]

26 minutes ago, CCTC said:

It looks like it is well done and a beautiful movie to watch, but it also looks like it is not going to offer anything new, just a live action version of the animated movie. 

It does have more of the beast's backstory. And they made Belle an inventor, so I'm not sure if they changed anything else about her. Gaston is more fleshed out, and I think has a military background, as opposed to being a hunter. There are also some new songs, as well as some new lyrics in the Gaston song, that never made the animated film cut, but they decided to use for this one. 

I was worried about how the beast would look, but I think they did a good job. I'm mostly excited for Gaston because I'm a huge Luke Evans fan. I just hope the scenes with Gaston and Belle aren't too creepy because of how young Emma Watson looks.

[CCTC]

6 minutes ago, orza said:

They are sanitized and sugar-coated and embellished to the point that they barely resemble the stories they are very loosely based on.

It would have been hard to work in a song in Cinderella where the cute animated birds took out the step-sisters' eyes (whose feet I imagine were still a bit messed up from the self-mutilation they did to try and fit into the slipper).

[orza]

Disney is in the business of making cloying feel-good movies that appeal to little kids and make a lot of money, not telling the traditional fairy tale stories. This show, however, is not geared toward 6-year-olds so I see no reason why they have to slavishly follow the cloying Disney stuff. Belle and Rumple's story has been the anti Beauty and the Beast story from the get go. Skin Deep is the story of a failed romance. Everything that follows just reinforces that.

[daxx]

They should have left it be after skin deep and let it end there.

[orza]

2 minutes ago, daxx said:

They should have left it be after skin deep and let it end there.

Totally.

[tri4335]

16 minutes ago, daxx said:

They should have left it be after skin deep and let it end there.

Or they could've left Belle in flashbacks with Rumple trying to free her for the series because she was trapped by whatever magical means they created. Then Rumple could be as bad as they wanted in present time balancing that with Belle making him a better person in the past.  At by the end of the series, he could've worked at being good to free her and that would be the HEA for him.  It was a mistake to have her in the present.

[maryle]

I watched the new episode of timeless.  They have something that Once lost somewhere between season 3 and 4 a story to tell (maybe not the most clever) but is coherent inside the show and interesting. Sadly, this show will probably have only one season just hoping they have the time to close their arc.  

[Shanna Marie]

This could fit both here and in "cast in other roles" (sort of), but I noticed this in the Holiday Movies thread about an upcoming ION Christmas movie:

"A Cinderella Christmas" - Sunday, Dec. 4, at 9/8c PM
Cast: Emma Rigby, Peter Porte, Sarah Stouffer, Leland B. Martin, Lesley-Anne Down, Mindy Cohn, Lucy DeVito
Synopsis: At a holiday masquerade ball, fledgling event planner Angie Wells and wealthy playboy Nicholas Karmichael, who needs to marry to retain his inheritance, meet and fall for each other anonymously. While Nicholas tries to locate the girl of his dreams, Angie must choose between pursuing her lifelong dream of running a business or following her heart.

I know they said that Ana wasn't actually the stepsister of the mother show's Cinderella, but I still find it amusing that Emma Rigby is apparently playing the Cinderella role in a Cinderella-themed holiday movie.

[Camera One]

While Nicholas tries to locate the girl of his dreams, Angie must choose between pursuing her lifelong dream of running a business or following her heart.

You can't have it all... love AND career?  What is this, 2016?

[YaddaYadda]

21 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 

You can't have it all... love AND career?  What is this, 2016?

I don't know if you've been living under a rock, but 2016 needs to die. 

[Shanna Marie]

53 minutes ago, Camera One said:

You can't have it all... love AND career?  What is this, 2016?

That's about 1950 in TV Christmas movie years. Careers for women are bad. True fulfillment can only be found through marriage and family. Big cities are also evil. True happiness can only be found in quaint small towns. If you don't absolutely love Christmas so much that you cover your entire house in decorations and devote your entire life to Christmas-related activities during December, you're evil. And yet, I absolutely love those sappy movies. It's a weird blend of hate watching and unironically enjoying them (kind of like the way I am with this series).

Speaking of which, it's kind of a pity Once has never done a Christmas episode. I'd love to see what Christmas in Storybrooke would be like. Does the Enchanted Forest have a comparable winter festival? What would the people who don't have the memory download think of Christmas? But that would require worldbuilding and remembering that not everyone is clued in, and actually using the culture clash and fish out of water elements built into the story.

[Spartan Girl]

I would just like to point out that Disney's Beast, for all his faults, never actually lied to Belle. For better or worse, he was always straightforward about who he was. Unlike Rumple, who is a full blown sociopath.

[Camera One]

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Speaking of which, it's kind of a pity Once has never done a Christmas episode. I'd love to see what Christmas in Storybrooke would be like. Does the Enchanted Forest have a comparable winter festival? What would the people who don't have the memory download think of Christmas? But that would require worldbuilding and remembering that not everyone is clued in, and actually using the culture clash and fish out of water elements built into the story.

LOL, they won't explore any of that.  It would be a disturbing mash-up of Santa Claus, the Grinch, Ebeneezer Scrooge and Tiny Tim.  And yes, Tiny Tim grew up hungering for revenge, and so full of envy that he turned green and became The Grinch, Zelena's next love interest.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Camera One

[Mari]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

 And yes, Tiny Tim grew up hungering for revenge, and so full of envy that he turned green and became The Grinch, Zelena's next love interest.

Well, it's important to have things in common.

Maybe his previous True Love was a Munchkin using him for his business connections?

[Shanna Marie]

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

And yes, Tiny Tim grew up hungering for revenge, and so full of envy that he turned green and became The Grinch, Zelena's next love interest.

I think I want to see that episode, actually.

[pezgirl7]

Today is the 27th anniversary of The Little Mermaid! Time sure flies. I was at Kohl's today at bought this cute Ariel mug, which I did before I knew it was the anniversary. Strange coincidence!

http://mobile.kohls.com/product/prd-2600974/disneys-the-little-mermaid-ariel-coffee-mug-by-jumping-beans.jsp

[MostlyC]

Santa Claus was lurking in the land of untold stories and shows up with his reindeer.  He is somehow Pan's brother, so Rumple has to deal with his relative Uncle Bad Santa.  The town bands together to fight and Santa gets redeemed in the last five minutes.  Everyone is happy, Belle and Rumple share a romantic moment, the reindeer are set free and make homes in Storybrook, and Santa bicycles off to the North Pole to reconcile with Mrs. Claus  ....so it's a happy winter festival/christmas/hannukah/holiday of one's choice.

And then Baby New Year shows up on Emma's doorstep just as the credits role.

[Camera One]

Without any "Once" this weekend, I borrowed the "Tin Man" miniseries from 2007 starring Zooey Deschanel.

I've watched the first episode so far, and it's decent.  I was surprised to see Zelena's farmhouse being used as the Kansas farmhouse.  Beware specific spoilers from Episode 1 below.

Spoiler

There is some cleverness in how they reimagine the "Scarecrow", the "Tin Man" and the "Lion", and their lack of brains, hearts and courage.  The actors are fine and the narrative is watchable.  There are a few aspects seriously lacking, though.  The use of initials D.G. for the main character and O.Z. for the place they're in become very grating to hear after awhile.  The main character DG (Zooey Deschanel) is from "our world", but she seems to have zero disbelief at the things she sees in "The O.Z." and she seems to have no knowledge of Oz from popular culture, so it takes the fun out of it.  Her Kansas personality is so thinly defined, that I'm not sure if there is even a character journey happening inside of her.  The "Wicked Witch" is kinda lame... at least throw in the pointy hat.   The plot is very linear, so gets a bit hum-drum... basically, they travel to a place, almost get caught by the villains but gets a clue to their next destination, the villain finds out where they're going through interrogation, and then they clash at the next location... wash, rinse, repeat.  We don't really see the characters being smart, and the villain always gets the answer they need.  The series is also lacking in "fun", though the Scarecrow played by Alan Cumming does provide a bit of comic relief. I didn't like Neal McDonough in "Desperate Housewives", so it has a bit of an effect watching him here, though he's ok and I'm getting used to him.  The "reveal" that "D.G." is the Wicked Witch's sister isn't intriguing at all. and doesn't make me too excited to see what happens next in Part 2.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Mari]

I enjoyed it, even though I struggle through most things with Zooey Deschanel in it.  (She's one of those people who in interviews it seems like I would like, but I find her performances grating and unconvincing.)

[KingOfHearts]

I watched Tin Man and it's not terrible, but it's not something I'd watch again. It's a very creative retelling of the Oz saga, but it throws in some cliches and doesn't always hold its own. I found a lot of it forgettable and unnecessarily weird. (Even for Oz.) I don't know why adapting Oz gives the industry so much trouble. Is it really that hard to capture the spirit of the books?

Spoiler

I do like how the villain's actions are explained through a witch possession. It makes the redemption believable and cohesive. After Regina started pooping rainbows and drawing light magic out of a hat on Once, there really needed to be more explanation for the stark changes. While magic/possession would have been a massive cop-out, it wouldn't have been a bad choice if it were planned from the beginning, like Tin Man. Maybe dark magic could have gradually corrupted her or something. 

Edited November 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I've watched the second episode... there's only one left, so after that, I'll read the comments above.

Spoiler

I did like the second episode better.  At least there seemed to be a little more depth to the DG character, with the lack of confidence in her magic.  I did like how she made the apple tree live again, bringing life back to Oz.  Toto being the tutor was clever, though I hate evil mole storylines.  I hope the Wizard and the Tin Man's wife will be brought back to life, though I'm not sure if this series is meant to have happy endings for all.  The young DG was so annoying... of course it's all her fault that Azkadelia turned evil.  At least this provides a goal for the final episode... it was becoming a bit pointless with the search for the emerald.  A few aspects did remind me of "Once"... all that talk of darkness... "The darkness is too deeply rooted in her"... " Light conquered over darkness"... "I gave my light to save someone".  The round mirror that Azkedelia looks into is stylistically very similar to Regina's one in the vault and in her mansion.  

[Camera One]

I just watched the third episode of "Tin Man".  

Spoiler

Overall, I think I would say it was watchable and not bad.  I liked the characters by the end, and I appreciated the clever adaptations of elements from the books, from the Poppy animals, to Toto the shapeshifter, to the "Scarecrow" without a brain, to the gruff "Tin Man" needing to reconnect with his heart, to the Lion-like empath (though the courage thing with him just didn't work and wasn't developed so didn't feel natural in the speech near the end).  I suppose it was nice to see the name "Dorothy Gale" spelled out in Part 3 as her ancestor, but the "name" D.G. still bugged, though not as much as "The O.Z."  

Still, I can't say I loved it so it won't go down as a favorite or something I'd rewatch.  The whole plot to get the emerald was much too simplistic so it felt like the "heroes" were going after one MacGuffin after another, and the repetitive pattern of the villain finding out their plans right away was continuous right to the end.  They also didn't do much to explain the reasoning behind the eclipse... why the villain needed it, or why it was a big deal.  That made the ending rather anti-climatic, especially the defeat of the witch.  I was hoping they would have water melting her in some way.  There were also some weird pacing moments like how it look forever for the eclipse to end, for no apparent reason.  

Looking back on the story as a whole, it made zero sense the dad didn't go with DG to Kansas.  If he just told her where the emerald was, and told her how to get it, half of this wouldn't even have been necessary.  Heck, the witch thought DG was dead.  The dad and the mom were kinda useless there at the end.  I guess she was this adaptation's version of Glinda The Useless.  

The demon possession also would have worked better if the older sister was able to penetrate through once in a while.  It was unclear whether the witch was channeling the anger that existed in the older sister, but going by the flashbacks, it seems like she was just an innocent victim of the idiotic young DG.

While I get why adaptations of Oz often go for the post-apocalyptic route, since they don't want to retread the original story, it just completely siphons away the magic of the Land of Oz.  An epilogue for this movie might have been nice, since "The O.Z." seemed about as inviting as District 12 from "The Hunger Games".

I wonder if A&E watched this and was inspired by several elements of it, complete with a useless Help Me Obi-Wan Kinobe message.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Camera One

[Souris]

On 11/8/2016 at 2:47 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Those who love retellings/prequels about Wonderland, I highly recommend Heartless by Marissa Meyer, which is her take on the origin story of the Queen of Hearts. It is a little similar to Regina's season one backstory before she became St. Woegina, but don't worry, this book is better. Definitely check it out, it was just released today!

I loved her sci-fi take on fairy tales in the Lunar Chronicles series.

[KingOfHearts]

I read an article headline that said, "U.K. Schools Accuse Beauty and the Beast of Promoting Domestic Violence". They're talking about the Disney version. Have they even seen Once Upon a Time's? LOL.

Edited November 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

I just watched the new trailer for NBC's Emerald City. So that's what OUAT could have looked like if it actually had a budget? Damn. I feel ripped off.

Now, imagine Emerald City's show runners getting a little tired of Dorothy's character after Season 1, focusing more on the Wicked Witch and her backstory in Season 2, and then forcing Dorothy and the Wicked Witch to become best friends even though Dorothy doesn't know the Wicked Witch killed Dorothy's good friend/love interest the Scarecrow behind her back. And that's OUAT in a nutshell.

[KingOfHearts]

It looks intriguing. The gritty style actually isn't too bad. It's either going to be horrible or decent, and I'm hoping for the latter. I'll try to watch it.

[Camera One]

I'll try it out too.  I have a feeling I'll watch it even if it's bad just for curiosity sake.  Some of the visuals like The Emerald City look good.  Other aspects seem nothing like Oz at all, like the Witches and the Munchkins.  I was expecting Merida to pop up.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I'll try it out too.  I have a feeling I'll watch it even if it's bad just for curiosity sake.  Some of the visuals like The Emerald City look good.  Other aspects seem nothing like Oz at all, like the Witches and the Munchkins.  I was expecting Merida to pop up.

I like the unique take on the Witches... the Munchkins seem difficult to do in the GoT vein. (How can you get away with such an adorable name?) The best you could do is probably make them close to Hobbits or dwarves.

I'm not too fond of the Wizard.

Edited November 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

I'm very wary over the Cruella movie. It'll probably be a wooby fest like Maleficent. Cruella will probably quit smoking, quit drinking, join the PETA and switch to faux furs. After all that she'll start a shelter for homeless Dalmatians with Roger and Anita. Poor girl was just misunderstood because she was raised by abusive poachers.

It'll probably be like what Once was misdirecting with the false Cinderella-type story.

Edited November 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Remember Anita went to school with Cruella?  If only Anita had done more to help Cruella fit in... she would never have become a cat lady and developed her irrational hatred for dogs which led to her to want to kill them.

This reminds me how little "Once" incorporated from the actual "101 Dalmatians".  If Roger and Anita were on the show, Anita would probably be "We need to find Perdita" non-stop à la Jasmine with "We need to save Agrabah".  And Roger would probably be a coward.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

This reminds me how little "Once" incorporated from the actual "101 Dalmatians".  If Roger and Anita were on the show, Anita would probably be "We need to find Perdita" non-stop à la Jasmine with "We need to save Agrabah".  And Roger would probably be a coward.

I was surprisingly disappointed they didn't incorporate Roger and Anita. They're pretty bland and forgettable characters. I wish they would have at least named the mother Anita. (Her name is Madeline.)

Apparently, Once's Cruella is based on Zelda Fitzgerald. What's funny is that Isaac can be seen reading the The Great Gatsby, which was written by Zelda's husband.

Edited November 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Last week I watched the whole DC lineup on the CW because of the 4-way crossover they were doing and when they got to Arrow, they did an alternate universe. The AU was happening in people's minds, so loved ones that were dead were actually alive there, and everything was kind of  good which would make it more difficult for some of the characters to just up and leave.  

The reason I'm bringing this up is because of the horrific job A&E did with their no curse-AU, which apparently wasn't a no curse-AU as much as it was something else according to Adam who keeps digging himself a hole the more he answers questions.

Bottom line is, as someone who stopped watching Arrow after season 2, I thought that it was well done. People would come into contact with each other and they'd kind of remember something, but they don't really say anything about it, but they know something is off, and then their nature as heroes would take over in the dream and that's how they managed to get out of that verse.

I can't express the ways I'm disappointed in what A&E did with episode 6x10.

But I guess that's what happens when you write with only one character in mind.

Edited December 7, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

I'm seeing a lot of comparisons to Buffy's Wishverse episode from the winter finale, and I'm not quite sure it tracks, other than just the generic "wish brought to life" aspect. In most of those wish come true things, whether the Buffy Wishverse or It's a Wonderful Life, the wisher is the one who's conscious of the changes and learns that the wish was wrong. Here, Regina is the one who remembers and knows that something's wrong that needs to be set right, and I guess it kind of fits in that it was the Evil Queen who made the wish, so Regina might count as the wisher, but at the same time it was Emma's wish. And I don't even know.

But there's plenty of other material that gets things into "Joss Whedon should maybe talk to his lawyer" territory. For one thing, we have our blond Chosen One with the weight of the world on her shoulders and the sense that it all always comes down to be her responsibility, and she's also burdened with the knowledge that her kind of Chosen One is doomed to die young (and not all of this was there in the original series concept, where it was more like she was the Savior for just this one curse, it wasn't a lifetime burden and an early death sentence). She falls in love with a black-leather-wearing villain turned hero who feels really bad about his past bad deeds and often is forced to face the consequences of things he did when he was evil (hmmm, we've commented how weird it is that they wrote such a lame redemption arc for Regina and such a good one for Hook, but maybe the reason is that they just copied Angel's arc for Hook). The heroine inadvertently turns her boyfriend evil through an act of love, then has to kill him in order to save everyone else, just as he turns good again (though in this case, I do like what this show did, with him turning himself good again and choosing to be the sacrifice). Then he's miraculously brought back to life by divine intervention (though Buffy did a lot better at showing the impact of all this on Angel's psyche and his relationship with Buffy). One or two of these elements might be a coincidence or just the kind of thing that happens in similar genres, but this close a parallel?

And now we have the Connor arc from Angel being played out, with Belle and Blue sharing the Wesley role. We've got the person who fears that the father will harm his son, confirmed by prophecies and visions (though here Belle has the advantage over Wes because she's heard Rumple's plans directly from him. Rumple really was a threat). The baby is taken away from the father for safekeeping, but the person taking him away is attacked and the baby is taken by an enemy into another dimension where time passes differently, and then the son returns, all grown up and apparently trained to hate his father and to be a badass fighter.

I think the writers think they're writing Regina as Cordelia, the antagonist/enemy who becomes a reluctant ally and then a friend and eventually a hero. They've certainly reached that near-deification point Cordy eventually got to. Regina's got the similar "sassy" tone and free pass to say anything because she speaks the truth. They just seem to have forgotten that Cordy didn't murder Buffy's dad, and her ongoing torment of them was catty remarks, not a curse. She also had a bigger karmic downfall than Regina ever got, since her family lost all its money, she lost her home, and she was left on her own, and then she later got extremely painful visions of people in need that forced her to have empathy for others.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

But there's plenty of other material that gets things into "Joss Whedon should maybe talk to his lawyer" territory. 

Starting to think I should watch Buffy just to join the "Once Upon a Time is ripping off BTVS!" bandwagon. Jane Espenson wrote some episodes that show too... (And produced 88 of them.)

Edited December 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Starting to think I should watch Buffy just to join the "Once Upon a Time is ripping off BTVS!" bandwagon.

I have found that Buffy doesn't age so well. I've tried to go back and rewatch from the beginning, and I just couldn't, as much as I loved it when it was on. Angel ages a lot better. A few years ago, I went to watch one episode, mostly to refresh myself on something I was writing or discussing at the time, and ended up binging the entire series. Maybe it's just that I'm way too removed from the high school scene now, though I think a lot of it had to do with severely disliking a lot of the last few seasons, which retroactively tainted the earlier seasons that were actually good. Be warned that the first season looks rather cheap and is very cheesy, though you get glimpses of the promise in the finale. Season two is really quite good (good enough that they stole a lot of it for Once). Three isn't quite as good, but still really impressive. The rest of the series flounders a bit. I don't think they knew quite what to do when the characters went on to college and some of the characters left for the spinoff. The brilliant thing about the first three seasons was the monsters as metaphor for high school. They took all the teen anxieties and high school woes and made them literal monsters and supernatural events. They lost that thread in later seasons, so it felt less tightly woven.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I have found that Buffy doesn't age so well. I've tried to go back and rewatch from the beginning, and I just couldn't, as much as I loved it when it was on.  ... Be warned that the first season looks rather cheap and is very cheesy, though you get glimpses of the promise in the finale. 

I have tried to watch the first couple of episodes before, and this is what I immediately thought. Very 90s high school.

[InsertWordHere]

33 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think the writers think they're writing Regina as Cordelia, the antagonist/enemy who becomes a reluctant ally and then a friend and eventually a hero. They've certainly reached that near-deification point Cordy eventually got to. Regina's got the similar "sassy" tone and free pass to say anything because she speaks the truth. They just seem to have forgotten that Cordy didn't murder Buffy's dad, and her ongoing torment of them was catty remarks, not a curse.

I watched Cordelia. I loved Cordelia. Cordelia Chase is a favorite character of mine. Regina, you're no Cordelia. Also, this wish episode was no "The Wish," which remains my favorite "AU" episode of any show. 

There's a scene between Cordelia and Buffy that I occasionally see making the rounds on tumblr. It's a scene where Buffy is visibly upset because of something another character did to her. Cordelia, who is not Buffy's friend at this point, and who had recently had her heart broken by the actions of two of Buffy's friends which resulted in a serious injury, walks in and Buffy asks her if she could drive her home. Cordelia takes one look at her face, drops whatever she had come in there to do, and says, "of course." Not because they have family or friends in common, not because she'd get something out of it, but because she saw someone in distress and chose to help her. That is a strong character, that is female solidarity, and that is one of the reasons why I love Cordelia. Cordelia helped before she had a romantic connection to one of the main characters and she kept helping after that connection was broken. That's what OUaT is missing by making everyone family, by making their reasons to help only be to save a family member or a family member's SO while the tertiary characters are simply left to get swept up in curses they didn't ask for and get turned into trees, crickets or other assorted objects. 

[KAOS Agent]

The Wish followed mostly Cordy as she explored this new Sunnydale without Buffy and realized oops, having Buffy around was really important to Cordy being able to live the life she enjoyed. She liked bright clothes, hanging out at The Bronze and driving her convertible to school, none of which was allowed in Alternate Sunnydale. That kind of lesson might have been interesting if they could have worked it out some way for Regina to learn that the Saviour isn't what ruined her life. It wasn't like Buffy was deified in the episode either, so there wouldn't have been a huge need to feature Emma at all, she wouldn't even have to appear. Emma dying was supposed to have ended the curse, so Emma dies of old age and the curse breaks and we see how Storybrooke would be without Emma there to influence her parents and the town's feelings about Regina. Would Snowing be as forgiving if Emma was dead before they ever met her? How would they handle knowing that they had sacrificed her and she grew up alone and abandoned hating her parents all her life? Would they have stopped the mob that descended upon Regina in 2.01? That truly would be a be careful what you wish for scenario that doesn't punish Emma, but creates actual consequences for the Evil Queen/Regina and maybe she learns something in the process. A nice way to make a Regina-centric without using other characters to prop her story. 

If they wanted an Enchanted Forest setting, simply have Storybrooke disappear like in 3.11 and have everyone returned home. Robin would still be alive and not aged up, so they could still have her find him and bring him back. Then they could parallel 2A and have Regina dealing with AU!Hook and AU!Cora to get the compass/find a bean and get back to Storybrooke where Emma and everyone else are still frozen because no time has passed.

The one thing that I always thought was interesting about The Wish is that Cordy didn't remember anything about it. It was entirely an audience experience to see the difference one character made in the world of the show. They even managed to reflect how Sunnydale and its people changed Buffy for the better by showing AU!Buffy. Cordy didn't learn a Very Important Lesson that changed her character going forward, but I think the audience sort of did.

Edited December 7, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

I would never rewatch "Buffy" again since I'm actually not a huge fan of monster shows.  The last season and a half totally ruined the characters, but the first half of the series was much better crafted than "Once" in all areas - characterization, plotting and worldbuilding.  Its semi-procedural aspect was in a way more like Season 1.  

The one aspect of "Buffy" that I wish (oops) Jane had brought to "Once" was team dynamic.  The "heroes" on Buffy worked together in a library, and research was actually important.  It's not just Belle waltzing in with a book declaring something out of the blue.  They had a wise sage character (Giles) and his role was explored.  It would be sort of like if "Once" bothered to flesh out Fairies, and Blue was actually a source of advice, instead of everyone hitting up that trustworthy Gold every other week when he wasn't trying to destroy their lives.  On "Once", the heroes are always reactive, magical solutions appear with zero work or effort, and the powers of evil always have the upperhand except at the climax.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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They had a wise sage character (Giles) and his role was explored.

I saw "Giles" and thought you wanted Gideon to be the sage character for the heroes on Once, lol.

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On "Once", the heroes are always reactive, magical solutions appear with zero work or effort, and the powers of evil always have the upperhand except at the climax.

I would love to see the heroes functioning as a unit (i.e. The Nevengers) to help people in need. We saw a little bit of that in 4A and 5B. Storybrooke should be the new Land of Untold Stories, and their "operation" should be giving refugees a safe place to live or help them resolve their situations back home. Instead of showing us the characters caring enough about others to do something like that, the writers have them so self-absorbed that they won't lift finger unless it has to do with a family member. Belle, Regina and Henry love to talk about "what heroes do", but they don't actually do it unless whatever is happening affects them. I think the emotional investment comes in when the characters are allowed to build new relationships with interesting people (Emma/Elsa) and we get time to warm up to the guest characters.

Basically, I need Storybrooke to become the Deep Space Nine for the multiverse. Bonus points if the barrier goes away and they have to balance LWM people riding through with magical shenanigans.  

Edited December 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

One thing Joss Whedon did well in the shows of his that I've watched (Buffy, Angel, and Firefly) was the concept of "found family," where the family you came from might have been screwed up, but that just meant you could choose your family. There was none of this "but they're family" nonsense, where you had to put up with someone because of blood ties, regardless of what they'd done to you or how they treated you. You found your family in people who had your back and who had common goals. And it didn't necessarily mean you had to come from an awful family. On Firefly, it sounded like Kaylee and Jayne had happy, stable families. They'd just chosen to go out into space, so the found family was about proximity. They couldn't always be with their families, but they could be with the crew.

I like the Deep Space Nine for the multiverse idea. That was my favorite Trek show. And that was a great case of found families, as well, plus relationships that were slowly and organically developed. The friendship between O'Brien and Bashir was a thing of beauty, with all the ups and downs and bumps along the way, and Bashir having to grow up a lot. That was a show where I really got the sense that they dug into exploring what each character would really do in a given situation rather than them being twisted by the plot.

[KingOfHearts]

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That was a show where I really got the sense that they dug into exploring what each character would really do in a given situation rather than them being twisted by the plot.

This. While the characters had to constantly react to different scenarios, they reacted like real beings. They made decisions based on their experiences in an organic manner. Their choices would sometimes even affect the outcome of bigger conflicts.

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One thing Joss Whedon did well in the shows of his that I've watched (Buffy, Angel, and Firefly) was the concept of "found family," where the family you came from might have been screwed up, but that just meant you could choose your family. 

Lost did that to a lesser extent, I think. The Oceanic 815 survivors progressed from reluctant strangers to a big family over time. They cared about each other and discovered a belonging they had never had in their lives before. Most of them had screwed up childhoods too.

[daxx]

DS9 is my favorite Trek also, hence my moniker, based on Jadzia Dax.

[Shanna Marie]

One other thing that Deep Space Nine did that this show could learn from was come up with surprise twists in character backstories that still made sense, that you could really believe had been planned all along, even if it wasn't. They did that by paying attention to the characters and what the actors did with them. The whole plotline about Bashir's genetic enhancement sprang from the way Alexander Siddig delivered a rather innocuous line -- someone going to Earth asked if he wanted to send greetings to anyone, and he said no like there was some tension or conflict rather than just a casual "no thanks." There was nothing suggesting tone in the script, but once they saw the way he played it, they started brainstorming about why he might be estranged from his family, and then they drew upon that whole "second in the class" thing that kept coming up. It was a shock, but then you could also look back at the earlier episodes and kind of see it. It wasn't out of the blue, like eggnapping, Liam letting the whole crew die, Hook murdering his father and orphaning his little brother, Emma still being a fugitive just a couple of years before the show, etc. And then there were consequences that lasted the rest of the season -- hearings about whether or not he should be kicked out of Starfleet, dealing with other genetically modified people, being forced into the spy ring, his friends becoming wary of him, not being welcome to play darts, etc. So no huge twist out of the blue that ended up being meaningless.