Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[mertensia]

On 9/11/2017 at 7:39 AM, Wayward Son said:

 

As I outlined above (leaving Adam in the pit, killing Benny etc) Dean has consistently displayed a ruthless and selfish streak when he feels Sam is in danger and acts upon his "take care of Sammy" directive. In light of that, I find it perfectly in character for Dean to  have not give Castiel money in his rush to get Cas out of the bunker to ensure Sam was kept safe from "Ezekiel's" threat. 

Except that's not really fair. Adam had two half-brothers. Or possibly more- who knows with John? What has Sam done to try and save Adam?  There are no scenes of Sam doing research to save Adam. Or asking Chuck to raise him. Both brothers have pushed him way in the back of their minds. 

That said, seriously Chuck could have done something for poor Adam. Or reassure the boys that he had gone to Heaven before Stull or the like.

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, mertensia said:

That said, seriously Chuck could have done something for poor Adam. Or reassure the boys that he had gone to Heaven before Stull or the like.

If Adam had gone to Heaven before Stull Chuck wouldn't have had to tell them that.  Sam would have known that Adam wasn't in the cage.  Sucks to be Adam, but in a way I'm glad they didn't do anything to save him, bar Dean's half-hearted attempt with Death, because the cage is supposed to be hard to break into.  And, they can't save everybody. And what's dead should stay dead.  And all that.

[Wayward Son]

39 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Except that's not really fair. Adam had two half-brothers. Or possibly more- who knows with John? What has Sam done to try and save Adam?  There are no scenes of Sam doing research to save Adam. Or asking Chuck to raise him. Both brothers have pushed him way in the back of their minds. 

That said, seriously Chuck could have done something for poor Adam. Or reassure the boys that he had gone to Heaven before Stull or the like.

The argument I had been trying to make wasn't that Dean was worse than everyone else. It was that Dean was equal to the rest of them rather than better. The fact that Sam too failed to try and help Adam further supports my belief they have equally dubious morality at times serves to prove my point rather than take away from it IMO.

[ahrtee]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

 

Bottom Line for the TL; DR: Bobby knew exactly how to get through to Dean.  He needed to truncate the fight because they were out of time.  Taking a "play through the pain" approach was far more likely to get the outcome he (and ultimately Dean) desires.  Bobby has demonstrated in the past and in the future that he is looking out for Dean.  In this moment, the surly asshole approach was the right approach,  IMO. 

I actually agree with you *in this instance.*  Dean needed something to kick him out of self-pity there, and channeling John was the right way to go at that point.   (Dean was still close enough to his drilled-in "obey John, don't question" mode that it would be enough to make him snap out of himself.)

What I dislike is the fact that the writers seem to use that as the *only* way to get to Dean, so they had Bobby use it again (in slightly different words) in "How to Win Friends...", deliberately (I think) had Sam use it under the influence of the siren, and even had Eliot Ness (who didn't know him at all) tell him the same thing.   That IMO is more of a trope they've decided to use with Dean than a meaningful "get your head out of you ass because there's work to do" comment.

Once--works for shock value.  More than once--lazy writing. 

JMO.  

[ILoveReading]

I guess I don't see that Dean was really wallowing in self pity.  It's not like he was complaining or moping for weeks or even hours.  It had literally just happened.  Sam strangled him and chose a demon over him.   Dean was reacting to a situation that literally just happened. 

He did not deserve to have the words boo hoo, princess or whiny brat thrown at him.    Bobby was completely dismissive of the trauma that Dean just suffered.  And he gave Sam a free pass by acting like it was all Dean's fault for not reaching Sam. 

He could have tried a softer approach first. 

Another alternative-

Dean, I know your mad son, and you have every right to be.  But you can kick Sam's ass later.  I know you son.  I know that if there was a chance to save Sam, no matter how small and you didn't take it, you wouldn't be able to live with yourself.

After Jo was fatally wounded and Dean was about to fall apart, Bobby didn't go for "shock value", he used the sympathetic approach and it worked.  He didn't need to right to "shock value."

This may be an upopular opinion but Bobby was a first class asshat toward Dean in that scene. 

As for s7, I never understood why Bobby even asked Dean how he was doing.  Because no matter what Dean's feels are Bobby's response was basically suck it up.  Why bother asking if you think he's just moping or feeling sorry for himself.   He just have just issued the boo hoo princess speech and saved himself some time. 

[auntvi]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

Bottom Line for the TL; DR: Bobby knew exactly how to get through to Dean.  He needed to truncate the fight because they were out of time.  Taking a "play through the pain" approach was far more likely to get the outcome he (and ultimately Dean) desires.  Bobby has demonstrated in the past and in the future that he is looking out for Dean.  In this moment, the surly asshole approach was the right approach,  IMO.

I just watched this yesterday and couldn't agree more. And Bobby's boo-hoo princess speech was really effective on screen. We had been going back and forth between Dean and Sam's angst and anger, and BOOM! Bobby's speech breaks through and gives us some hope that the relationship between Sam & Dean will survive.

[catrox14]

Of the many things that bother me about the boo hoo princess speech is Bobby's 180 on the whole thing which sets up a stupid shit on Dean beratement from Bobby.

IMO, 4.21.and 4.22 has some of the worst writing this show has ever had. It went away from Dean AND Bobby acting as a unit and making a reasonable decision to keep Sam  from further harming himself and others by demon blood detox to Bobby's about face and minimizing the issues with Sam withv Bobby saying that they loved Sam TOO MUCH by not using him as a weapon that could end in Sam going full on Darkside. say what?

Quote

BOBBY
The news. The news ain't good.

DEAN
This is what Rufus called about? 'Key West sees ten species go extinct'.

BOBBY
Yep. Plus Alaska. Fifteen-man fishing crew all stricken blind, cause unknown. New York, teacher goes postal, locks the door, kills exactly sixty-six kids. All this in a single day. I looked them up. There's no doubt about it. They're all seals. Breaking. Fast.

DEAN
How many are left?

BOBBY
Who knows? Can't be many. Where the hell are your angel pals?

DEAN
You tell me.

BOBBY
I'm just wondering.

DEAN
What?

BOBBY
The apocalypse being nigh and all...is now really the right time to be having this little domestic drama of ours?

DEAN
What do you mean?

BOBBY
Well, I don't like this any more than you do, but Sam can kill demons. He's got a shot at stopping Armageddon.

DEAN
So what? Sacrifice Sam's life, his soul, for the greater good? Is that what you're saying? Times are bad, so let's use Sam as a nuclear warhead?

BOBBY
Look, I know you hate me for suggesting it. I hate me for suggesting it. I love that boy like a son. All I'm saying is maybe he's here right now instead of on the battlefield because we love him too much.

 

 

So the narrative, through Bobby, is  saying that in 4.21  Dean was selfish for not wanting Sam to be a weapon and going full dark side at the beginning of 4.21 but then by the end,  and at the  beginning of 4.22 , Dean is also selfish for not loving Sam enough after he did try to work with Sam to kill Lilith with the caveat that Ruby is out of the picture, only to have Sam literally strangle Dean at the end of their brawl, which left Dean thinking that Sam was no longer his brother and had become the thing he was trying to stop in the first place with demon detox.

I really find it unlikely that Dean didn't tell Bobby about the brawl.. I mean maybe he didn't but Dean had already made it clear that he was questiong whether Sam was  his brother and given Dean's words to Bobby about that being his big worry in 4.21 you would think, the sage Bobby, would have questioned more like asking him why this sudden change instead of launching into the tirade.

Talk about putting Dean in a double or triple bind there , Bobby!  And Sera and Eric.jeeez WTF.

[auntvi]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, 4.21.and 4.22 has some of the worst writing this show has ever had.

Agree to disagree. I think it's some of the best. Everything that's happened to and between Sam & Dean comes to a head, and it's not supposed to be reasonable, it's supposed to be hard to watch.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This may be an upopular opinion but Bobby was a first class asshat toward Dean in that scene. 

For me that was the scene Bobby died.

So when it later happened for "real" in Season 7, I had no positive feeling whatsoever left for the character. Hence, that episode - forgot the name, Death`s Door? - wasn`t at all effective for me. I can see it technically being an emotionally poignant episode but that all hinges on any emotional attachment you feel to the character himself or other character having attachment to him. And while Dean still had that at that point, it was no longer something I could feel or understand or anything so it was more like: meh.  

Same goes for the ghost!Bobby!arc or any of the times he showed up after. None of it was effective for me. I really liked him up to the Season 4 Premiere and somehow after that, they lost touch with the character and in the Season 4 Finale he died as far as I`m concerned.   

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

For me that was the scene Bobby died.

So when it later happened for "real" in Season 7, I had no positive feeling whatsoever left for the character. Hence, that episode - forgot the name, Death`s Door? - wasn`t at all effective for me. I can see it technically being an emotionally poignant episode but that all hinges on any emotional attachment you feel to the character himself or other character having attachment to him. And while Dean still had that at that point, it was no longer something I could feel or understand or anything so it was more like: meh.  

Same goes for the ghost!Bobby!arc or any of the times he showed up after. None of it was effective for me. I really liked him up to the Season 4 Premiere and somehow after that, they lost touch with the character and in the Season 4 Finale he died as far as I`m concerned.   

This is how I felt.  Bobby used to be one of my favorite characters, until he became a writer mouthpiece. 

Unfortunately, the more they turned Bobby into a father figure the more they turned him into John, who only saw Dean as a blunt instrument whose sole purpose was Sams' body guard. 

I had no feelings left for the character so when they killed him off, it didn't bother me.  For that reason and the fact that I knew he'd be back.  I saw ghost Bobby a mile away and that whole abominable snowman movie didn't fool me.  I knew he was filming SPN

Edited September 23, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

The only time I thought bringing the character back was effective was in that flashback episode with Rufus. Those two worked well together and that short moment he and Dean saw each other in that time loop thing was brief enough for me to elicit some kind of nostalgia even. And of course the AU version was neither here nor there for me, it was more of a gimmick. 

Beyond that, I didn`t think any of those many callbacks to the character worked. And it was overused, too.   

Quote

Unfortunately, the more they turned Bobby into a father figure the more they turned him into John

In the end they turned him into someone worse than John. Then they brough in Mary and made her even worse than that. So in the end, ironically, John became the "best" parental figure left. I would name Jody but she is more friend than parental and I prefer it that way.

[catrox14]

There are more problems for me with 4.21 and 4.22 than just the Dean stuff. Too many inconsistencies that overrode the drama

I have problems with the setup to get to the brawl and the fallout of the brawl and strangulation that was completely ignored. That's a pretty serious thing. I realize Dean and Sam have punched each other in the show but neither has tried to kill the other in such a brutal personal way as strangulation, that I can recall. Shapeshifter!Dean tried to strangle Sam but that was a shapeshifter so I don't count that one.  IMO, Sam wasn't trying to kill Dean but he was trying to make it clear to Dean he COULD kill him with his bear hands if he wanted to do it to prove that he was stronger than him now. IMO, he wanted Dean to remember. I think on some level Sam probably couldn't really kill Dean but all Dean knew is that he saw Sam kill famine with his powers and now his brother was strangling him. I dunno, seems reasonable to me that would give Dean pause for a moment or 10.

IMO, Bobby could have found 10 other ways to talk to Dean about his distance from Sam. IMO, threatening to shoot Dean was pretty ridiculous.  I think that writing unnecessarily woobified Dean a bit too, by not showing him tell Bobby that Sam strangled him. There is no mystery to not showing that conversation because Dean knows what Sam did, Sam knows what he did, and the audience knows what happened. Was Dean trying to protect Sam from Bobby? It's a strange writing/editing choice.  Was Kripke trying to paint Bobby as both an asshole and a sage? And IMO, the "you're a better man than your father" came too little too late for this viewer.  Bobby could have lead with that in the first place. IMO that was all done so Kripke could blather on about Family makes you miserable or whatever crap that was.

Bobby's quick climb onto YAY TEAM WEAPONIZED SAM! who will save the world and screw the potential down side for Sam was mystifying to me.  And yet Dean is somehow the bad guy for not wanting a weaponized Sam?  I'm not being snarky. I have never understood that shift for Bobby.

Sam's hallucination that Alastair had come back from the dead to torture Sam seemed rather out of left field for me. Azazel seemed to be the more logical choice between Sam the demon blood in the first place. Now actor availability may have influenced that decision but they could have made it work with Azazel, just by showing flashbacks of Azazel and having him be the face that Sam saw tormenting him. I guess Sam somehow thought Alastair would come back to torment him in Hell, even though Sam actually KILLED Alastair really most sincerely dead so he wasn't in Hell anymore. 

Cas was thrown under the bus by having him be the one that let Sam out. I mean I get the reasoning but still eh, not a fan of that. Since Bobby was all on Team Weaponized Sam, why not have him let him out. Too far for Bobby? Anyway, at least when Cas realized that Lilith was the seal he showed up to try and help Dean course correct.

Dean leaving the message for Sam didn't make any difference to the plot at all because Sam never got the real message, other than as adding more clarity to the idea that Sam and Dean were being manipulated by either the angels or Ruby. But Cas sent Dean to the church anyway so Dean got there in time to help except that Ruby locked the doors and apparently it took Dean a long ass time to find a way to break the door down. I'm not even sure that Sam would have believed Dean that Lilith was the seal because Ruby was there and manipulating him to the bitter end and IMO would have likely convinced him that Dean was lying. But that's just my musing on that particular point. 

So yeah, for me, 4.21 and 4.22 are just blech. YMMV

Edited September 23, 2017 by catrox14

[companionenvy]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Bobby's quick climb onto YAY TEAM WEAPONIZED SAM! who will save the world and screw the potential down side for Sam was mystifying to me.  And yet Dean is somehow the bad guy for not wanting a weaponized Sam?  I'm not being snarky. I have never understood that shift for Bobby.

For me, Bobby's turn-around does make sense, because the situation was desperate and Sam WAS, potentially, a powerful weapon.

If the ultimate goal is "stop Sam from going darkside," then it is obvious that Sam should be locked up in the panic room and forcibly detoxed.  But if the ultimate goal is "save the world," then I think (given the information they had at the time) Bobby is bringing up a valid point. Sam might have been dangerously unstable, but he was also very powerful -- and was still very much on Team Stop the Apocalypse. If he had defected to the demons side, that would have been one thing, but he hadn't: Sam still wanted exactly the same thing that Bobby and Dean wanted. He was simply (as far as they knew) taking an extremely morally questionable path to getting it.

Of course, as it turns out, Dean was right - but,at this point, for the wrong reason, given that he, too, still thought killing Lillith was a good thing. IMO, Dean's primary reason for keeping Sam locked up at this point wasn't to protect the world from Sam, but to protect Sam. The painful truth Bobby was raising was that saving the world might mean grudgingly utilizing Sam's powers even at the price of Sam's life and soul. Which isn't what happens at the end of S4, but is a version of what winds up happening at the end of S5. 

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

For me, Bobby's turn-around does make sense, because the situation was desperate and Sam WAS, potentially, a powerful weapon.

If the ultimate goal is "stop Sam from going darkside," then it is obvious that Sam should be locked up in the panic room and forcibly detoxed.  But if the ultimate goal is "save the world," then I think (given the information they had at the time) Bobby is bringing up a valid point. Sam might have been dangerously unstable, but he was also very powerful -- and was still very much on Team Stop the Apocalypse. If he had defected to the demons side, that would have been one thing, but he hadn't: Sam still wanted exactly the same thing that Bobby and Dean wanted. He was simply (as far as they knew) taking an extremely morally questionable path to getting it.

Of course, as it turns out, Dean was right - but,at this point, for the wrong reason, given that he, too, still thought killing Lillith was a good thing. IMO, Dean's primary reason for keeping Sam locked up at this point wasn't to protect the world from Sam, but to protect Sam. The painful truth Bobby was raising was that saving the world might mean grudgingly utilizing Sam's powers even at the price of Sam's life and soul. Which isn't what happens at the end of S4, but is a version of what winds up happening at the end of S5. 

Perfect post! Could not have put it better myself.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

For me, Bobby's turn-around does make sense, because the situation was desperate and Sam WAS, potentially, a powerful weapon.

Sorry I wasn't clear.  I know the technical reason for Bobby's turn around. The problem I have is that Dean's emotional issues  were shown to be the real  problem not that using Sam as a weapon might be really bad for Sam even if he does kill Lilith.

Bobby threw in the "we love him too much" which well come on, if Bobby loved Sam too much wouldn't he be ripping up heaven and hell and all the books to find some other way to take out Lilith, besides a weaponized Sam who might never be under control again?  Or if Sam goes totally dark side then Dean and/or Bobby are faced with killing him. It would have been interesting if Bobby knew Sam tried to kill Dean and that's why he was all "send Sam to war and fuck him if he goes dark side, I'll kill him myself". But that's not what happened. 

It was centered around Dean both loving Sam too much and not loving Sam enough in the end, which is why I said it was a double bind for Dean. Why have Sam strangle Dean, and ignore it for the remainder of the season/episode/to the end of time? Why not use that moment to show Bobby exactly why Dean was putting Sam on blast along with showing just how out of control Sam had gotten?  Instead, it's never mentioned again and the focus is now on how Dean was being selfish  with alleged'jealousy' over Ruby when he wasn't actually jealous at all about Ruby. He straight up thought Ruby was a POS  from the jump and warned Sam repeatedly to get away from her except for the hot minute in Heaven and Hell when she helped them. But now Dean's feet are being held to the fire because Sam didn't listen to him

And it's that shift to Dean's emotional and mental state that became the underpinning of Bobby's argument about using a weaponized Sam and that's the part I take issue with. There was no evidence that it was really the only way, because it was A WAY, not necessarily the ONLY way.

There is really no good explanation or head!canon for me for this other than to show that Dean is weak, too emotional and selfish, so Bobby is there to set him straight.Whatever, show.

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Bobby threw in the "we love him too much" which well come on, if Bobby loved Sam too much wouldn't he be ripping up heaven and hell and all the books to find some other way to take out Lilith, besides a weaponized Sam who might never be under control again? 

In this case, I'm willing to accept that Bobby had been searching for answers, and had come up empty. Bobby may not love Sam the way Dean does, but I don't think the fact that he's willing to possibly sacrifice Sam here shows that he doesn't sincerely care about him, any more than the fact that Dean lets Sam go on a suicide mission in Swan Song means that Dean no longer loves Sam.

I don't think the show or Bobby is presenting Dean unsympathetically. Dean is right to care about Sam, right to be wary of his powers, right to want to protect him. It is only natural, and even commendable, that he would have those impulses. The fact that Bobby may have a point that saving the world might, in this case, have to override those otherwise understandable motivations doesn't mean that Dean is a selfish moron. It means he's human. 

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

In this case, I'm willing to accept that Bobby had been searching for answers, and had come up empty. Bobby may not love Sam the way Dean does, but I don't think the fact that he's willing to possibly sacrifice Sam here shows that he doesn't sincerely care about him, any more than the fact that Dean lets Sam go on a suicide mission in Swan Song means that Dean no longer loves Sam.

Here's the problem for me.

As far as I know, it's been about 24 to 48 hr since Sam took out the demons in The Rapture and Dean and Cas went to Bobby to put Sam into detox, which NONE of them know what will happen. I'm legitimately fuzzy on that TL for what Bobby knew when.

I thought  Bobby didn't know about the demon blood issues until they had to explain why they needed to put Sam in his safe room. I know Bobby knew about the seals.  So at what point did it occur to Bobby that Sam might be the best weapon? It seemed to me if Bobby didn't know about Sam's demon blood problem until they put him on lockdown then he's making an assessment that Sam is the answer in a pretty fast turnaround. Like hours.

Can you guys help me on the TL?

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here's the problem for me.

As far as I know, it's been about 24 to 48 hr since Sam took out the demons in The Rapture and Dean and Cas went to Bobby to put Sam into detox, which NONE of them know what will happen. I'm legitimately fuzzy on that TL for what Bobby knew when.

I thought  Bobby didn't know about the demon blood issues until they had to explain why they needed to put Sam in his safe room. I know Bobby knew about the seals.  So at what point did it occur to Bobby that Sam might be the best weapon? It seemed to me if Bobby didn't know about Sam's demon blood problem until they put him on lockdown then he's making an assessment that Sam is the answer in a pretty fast turnaround. Like hours.

Can you guys help me on the TL?

Dean found out about the demon blood towards the end of The Rapture when he saw SAm drinking it.  He apparently called Bobby behind Sam's back to get the panic room ready and have Bobby call Sam.  So, that's when Bobby would have found out.  Dean knew that Sam had powers of some sort since Metamorphosis.  We only saw Bobby twice after that (Yellow Fever and Sex and Violence) until the panic room. So, what and if he knew about that is anyone's guess. 

[catrox14]

52 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Dean found out about the demon blood towards the end of The Rapture when he saw SAm drinking it.  He apparently called Bobby behind Sam's back to get the panic room ready and have Bobby call Sam.  So, that's when Bobby would have found out.  Dean knew that Sam had powers of some sort since Metamorphosis.  We only saw Bobby twice after that (Yellow Fever and Sex and Violence) until the panic room. So, what and if he knew about that is anyone's guess. 

I knew Dean knew about the powers but I thought Dean knew about the demon blood before the Rapture like as of My Bloody Valentine when he killed Famine with the blood all over his face when  handcuffed him to the bathroom sink to stop from drinking it again, which was before the Rapture.   Oh wait I'm thinking of S5 holy crap. NEVER MIND

Edited September 23, 2017 by catrox14
getting s5 and s4 confused on the demon blood thing SHEESH

[Katy M]

55 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I knew Dean knew about the powers but I thought Dean knew about the demon blood before the Rapture like as

I'll go one further and say that he suspected SAm of actually doing something to further the powers, beyond them just being "natural" as of around Death Takes a Holiday and Cas semi-confirming that in On the Head of a Pin.  This is when I can see Dean calling Bobby to talk about what's going on with Sam.  But, that's all speculation on my part.  The only thing we know for sure is that Bobby finds out about the blood in The Rapture.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'll go one further and say that he suspected SAm of actually doing something to further the powers, beyond them just being "natural" as of around Death Takes a Holiday and Cas semi-confirming that in On the Head of a Pin.  This is when I can see Dean calling Bobby to talk about what's going on with Sam.  But, that's all speculation on my part.  The only thing we know for sure is that Bobby finds out about the blood in The Rapture.

Thanks

[trxr4kids]

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I guess I don't see that Dean was really wallowing in self pity.  It's not like he was complaining or moping for weeks or even hours.  It had literally just happened.  Sam strangled him and chose a demon over him.   Dean was reacting to a situation that literally just happened. 

I don't see it either but maybe like Dean, I do feelings wrong. ; )

[catrox14]

12 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I guess I don't see that Dean was really wallowing in self pity.  It's not like he was complaining or moping for weeks or even hours.  It had literally just happened.  Sam strangled him and chose a demon over him.   Dean was reacting to a situation that literally just happened. 

Yeah, I don't really get the reading that Dean was in a lot of self-pity. That's why it will forever aggravate me that Bobby's bitchfest at Dean just completely dismissed the whole attempted murder and betrayal by Sam as if Dean had nothing to be worried about with Sam and was just feeling sorry that Sam picked a demon. JFC, that pisses me off LOL

[AwesomO4000]

On 9/23/2017 at 1:31 PM, catrox14 said:

So yeah, for me, 4.21 and 4.22 are just blech. YMMV

I too have issues with 4.21 and 4.22, but I don't think they are necessarily the same ones you had. (For instance, I don't think they were showing Dean as weak so much - since Dean, despite all odds, didn't give up in my opinion and stuck to his principals.) My main issue is that they turned Sam into a dumbass. And turned Dean into a stubborn dumbass of sorts. Dean is a strategist. That he went to find Sam without multiple plans of attack / strategy is shortsighted... (a tazer can be your friend, Dean). And that Dean didn't switch up his strategy midstream when his original plan wasn't working is... well dumbass. The whole fight in "When the Levee Breaks" happened because of large amounts of dumbass on both sides. Sigh.

But then again, I'm of the unpopular opinion that most if not all of season 4 was fairly blech. I had issues starting with "Lazurus Rising." :: Ducks in case of flying rotten fruit ::

[Whimsy]

Your wish is our command (within reason, of course).  We've created a thread for spoilers to be discussed bitterly.

The reason we try to keep the "bitterness" and "bitch vs jerk" contained is twofold.  1- many posters don't want to read through pages and pages of negativity.  If we keep it contained, they should be able to read most of the threads without vitriol.  2- If we allow those topics in all of the threads, everyone would just be fighting all of the time.  This is what happened and why all these threads and rules were established.  Supernatural and Arrow are the only boards with this level of topics and modding.  That should tell you something.  Let's remember that we are family here and keep it as pleasant as possible. 

Now that that is taken care of- let's get this thread back on topic. 

[Katy M]

My super unpopular opinion--I don't think Supernatural needs to be, or should be, a platform for gender equality.  I've enjoyed most of the female characters on the show, barring Bela.  And, I wouldn't mind if they have more female characters, and I don't care if they don't.  And, I don't care if they kill them off, because they kill everyone off eventually.  The only recurring characters never to have died, to the best of my recollection are Lisa, Ben, Ed, Harry, Claire, Jodie, Becky, Garth, Amelia, and Mrs. Tran.  Percentage-wise, seems like females are making out better in that respect anyway.  OK, some deaths are more equal than others, so I'll add Sam, Dean, Mary, Lucifer, and unfortunately probably Cas to that list.

[Diane]

56 minutes ago, Katy M said:

My super unpopular opinion--I don't think Supernatural needs to be, or should be, a platform for gender equality.  I've enjoyed most of the female characters on the show, barring Bela.  And, I wouldn't mind if they have more female characters, and I don't care if they don't.  And, I don't care if they kill them off, because they kill everyone off eventually.  The only recurring characters never to have died, to the best of my recollection are Lisa, Ben, Ed, Harry, Claire, Jodie, Becky, Garth, Amelia, and Mrs. Tran.  Percentage-wise, seems like females are making out better in that respect anyway.  OK, some deaths are more equal than others, so I'll add Sam, Dean, Mary, Lucifer, and unfortunately probably Cas to that list.

I agree with this.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "All Episodes" thread:

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see them as comparable at all.  Charlie wasn't a minor character. She was in 8 episodes, with major screen time in the those episodes, and the boys considered her family. Frank was in 6 episodes as an occasional ally who had one advisory chat with Dean.

Frank and Charlie were both genius hackers but one wasn't dumbed down to bring on his own death like Charlie was. And really, it's not known if Frank is even dead. It's presumed but no body was ever shown.  Charlie behaved totally out of character, was being petty with Rowena and left a blind open so the Stynes could see her. Then she was sliced and diced and left in a bathtub for Dean and Sam to find all to further Dean's rage against the Stynes which wasn't necessary because Dean was going to kill them anyway after they broke into the bunker. 

I changed my mind and went ahead with the Frank part of this in the "All Episodes" thread. (Basically I concluded that Frank was sort of Dean's equivalent of Sam's scar.) But the highlighted part I'm going to talk about here, because it verges into Bitch/Jerk, I think.

For me, I think it was maybe less to justify Dean's rage per se, and more to further the narrative of the writers' perspective from the beginning of the season. As you said, Dean was already amped up, but with Charlie's horrific death, now his rage had more justification. And even better that it could be somewhat blamed on Sam. So then all of that tied back into the writers' - "Ooh Sam is maybe even more dark and monstrous than even Demon Dean - or in this case, mark of Cain Dean - was." For me, it was part of the reason why the "telling" with Sam and Castiel's worry didn't always seem to match with what we were seeing of Dean's behavior throughout season 10. Dean killed all of the would be rapists... but they had tried to kill him first, so there was justification rather than troubling behavior, so what were Sam and Castiel talking about when they were saying that Dean was acting out of control? And I don't know if that was the writing / directing choice or if maybe Jensen was somehow playing mark of Cain Dean more sympathetically than he maybe should have or both, but somehow for me, they didn't quite take mark of Cain Dean dark enough in season 10. And then when they did start going there, it seemed like an all of a sudden thing rather than something that had been building up over the season... or maybe that's what Charlie was supposed to be? A sympathy-inducing trigger to justify Dean going over the edge without him really going dark dark, but instead justified dark? And that seemed kinda wishy-washy to me. If you're gonna do it - then do it. My opinion on that one.

[FlickChick]

59 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 And I don't know if that was the writing / directing choice or if maybe Jensen was somehow playing mark of Cain Dean more sympathetically than he maybe should have or both, but somehow for me, they didn't quite take mark of Cain Dean dark enough in season 10. And then when they did start going there, it seemed like an all of a sudden thing rather than something that had been building up over the season... or maybe that's what Charlie was supposed to be? A sympathy-inducing trigger to justify Dean going over the edge without him really going dark dark, but instead justified dark? And that seemed kinda wishy-washy to me. If you're gonna do it - then do it. My opinion on that one.

Sorry, Awesomo, you give these writers too much credit for thinking ahead and focusing on how this would make Sam look or Dean act. The reason the story seemed to have evolved all of a sudden is because it was Dean's story and they don't usually develop his stories consistently or well. And my bitter opinion is that the Duo killed off Charlie in the most horrible manner because they could - for shock value. They IMO don't give a crap about giving a "reason" for a character to do something. Sometimes I swear that they write in a vacuum. :(

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Sorry, Awesomo, you give these writers too much credit for thinking ahead and focusing on how this would make Sam look or Dean act. The reason the story seemed to have evolved all of a sudden is because it was Dean's story and they don't usually develop his stories consistently or well. And my bitter opinion is that the Duo killed off Charlie in the most horrible manner because they could - for shock value. They IMO don't give a crap about giving a "reason" for a character to do something. Sometimes I swear that they write in a vacuum. :(

I would likely agree with you more except that I seem to remember a lot of talk before the beginning of the season about the lengths that Sam was going to go through to find Dean and get him back and all of the teasing of would Sam's behavior be considered worse than Dean's even though Dean was a demon. Even some of the dialogue in the early episodes seemed to support that the writers were attempting to go in this direction. And I think maybe that might have colored some of the first half of the season in terms of how mark of Cain Dean was presented - in that maybe there wasn't a lot of consensus as to how "dark" Dean was actually supposed to be.

As for developing the story, I somewhat disagree on that, because this was not a short arc. The demon Dean* part was short, but the over all mark of Cain arc went on for a season and a half - with the build up to Dean's taking it on going on a half season before that. And considering that I had a pretty good idea that Sam curing Dean of the mark was going to cause really, really bad things about 8 or so episodes before it happened - and predicted as such - I have a feeling the writers had already thought that far ahead (since I knew it was coming).

* And I actually think that the Demon Dean part of the story was short maybe partially because of the same reasoning - that the writers didn't want to go too far down the dark arc path for Dean. I say this, because I think they could only have Dean be a demon for so long before people started to wonder when Demon Dean was actually going to do something awful... and why wouldn't he? We've never seen a "good" demon, so either Dean was going to have to also end up being bad or they were going to end up having to de-demon him before it came to that. For example, we had Dean in hell supposedly enjoying (according to Dean) torturing. Now that he was a demon - who even seriously considered killing Sam, so obviously even letting go of one of regular Dean's basic traits of save Sam - why wasn't demon Dean doing that? It made no sense that he would be holding back - at least in my opinion. I think they chickened out and went the de-demoning route, before too many people could wonder about that and they would have to address it.

I call it the Angelus problem. When the writers of Angel decided to have the rest of the gang remove Angel's soul so they could get information from Angelus, thereby making him Angelus again, they wimped out in actually having Angelus do what Angelus likes to so - kill, torture and rape people. I suppose because they didn't want that to reflect on Angel when he got his soul back. Unfortunately, it ended up being annoying, because we all knew what Angelus was supposed to be doing... not letting people go and/or being duped out of killing people (because Angelus is also smart), so the lengths the writers seemed to go through to avoid Angelus actually killing people - rather than just talking about killing people - seemed ridiculous. Yet they did it anyway. Because they wimped out. In my opinion anyway.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Diane said:

I agree with this.

Me too!

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

No I didn't mean towards you! Sorry the quoting was wonky cause mobile. I was meaning in general with Dabb  and suuuuubtexxxxxt LOL

I knew what you meant ;) I'm just not a Destiel shipper and don't see the subtext most do, but that's for another day (and thread), lol.

Edited October 3, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[trxr4kids]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Ahh fair enough. I just didn't want to think I was directing it at you in particular. Just my musings .I don't know if Dean was ever in love with Lisa .I think he was in love with Cassie though.

I think Dean was in love with the idea of Lisa, much like I think Sam was in love with the idea of Amelia ( for reasons I will never understand) , I do think he loved Cassie. He must have a soft spot for people whose names start with Cas. 

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Ahh fair enough. I just didn't want to think I was directing it at you in particular. Just my musings .I don't know if Dean was ever in love with Lisa .I think he was in love with Cassie though.

I think he loved her as much as Sam loved Amelia. Loved, as opposed to in love with, in both cases (IMO). I'd say Jessica and Cassie (potentially) were great loves, while Lisa and Amelia were shock/rebounds (though loved in their own way). Either case, it's Dabb's distinction between the two brothers that galls.

[trxr4kids]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think he loved her as much as Sam loved Amelia. Loved, as opposed to in love with, in both cases (IMO). I'd say Jessica and Cassie (potentially) were great loves, while Lisa and Amelia were shock/rebounds (though loved in their own way). Either case, it's Dabb's distinction between the two brothers that galls.

OMG get out of head, lmao!

[Airmid]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 5:13 AM, Katy M said:

If Adam had gone to Heaven before Stull Chuck wouldn't have had to tell them that.  Sam would have known that Adam wasn't in the cage.  Sucks to be Adam, but in a way I'm glad they didn't do anything to save him, bar Dean's half-hearted attempt with Death, because the cage is supposed to be hard to break into.  And, they can't save everybody. And what's dead should stay dead.  And all that.

I was skimming through since I haven't kept up over here and saw this and all I could think was - wow, that's harsh. 

Adam doesn't have to come back as a living person on earth but he could have been saved to go to heaven and be with his mom. That's what he wanted - to be with family. It's rather ironic that Adam choose his family and what he was told was right and now suffers in hell while the Winchester's continually break the world (though not everything is their fault) choosing each other and they're supposed to be seen as right. It was originally the entire Winchester family making bad deals/decisions that lead to the apocalypse in the first place.

Say what you want about the angels (I am not a fan of how they have been portrayed in general) but they didn't make those choices. Even, lets say, they had used cupids on John and Mary and that's why he went around the bend so far. In the end he is still responsible for his actions. He knew, talking to Dean in that hospital room, about how he hadn't taken care of them the way he should have. He understood that he had done wrong. And he still put Dean in that terrible position. In the end it was the entire family not choosing the right path that got them to where they are now. Which, in all honesty, is a rather nasty thing to have for your two main characters IMO,

So back to Adam. Sam and Dean were in front of Guck*. When Kevin was shown to them why didn't one of them say "Hey, that's great and everything and we want the prophet in heaven but what about our brother? The one trapped in hell?" There's really no excuse for why they choose Kevin over Adam and even if the actor for Adam wasn't available they could have done some hand waving like saying he was released long ago, was never there, Michael needs him to not go totally nutso, whatever. 

It leaves a really bad taste in my mouth when they claim to be all about family and totally forget the family they risked a lot trying to save before. 

 

 

*I also hate Guck. I absolutely adore the actor who plays him - he gives the character likability. I am bitter at how they portrayed him and what's amazing is that at any time he could have stopped the breaking of the lock and letting Amara out because, God, and he didn't. Then he blamed the Winchesters. I just really, really dislike him from beginning to end. 

[Res]

9 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I was skimming through since I haven't kept up over here and saw this and all I could think was - wow, that's harsh. 

Adam doesn't have to come back as a living person on earth but he could have been saved to go to heaven and be with his mom. That's what he wanted - to be with family. It's rather ironic that Adam choose his family and what he was told was right and now suffers in hell while the Winchester's continually break the world (though not everything is their fault) choosing each other and they're supposed to be seen as right. It was originally the entire Winchester family making bad deals/decisions that lead to the apocalypse in the first place.

Say what you want about the angels (I am not a fan of how they have been portrayed in general) but they didn't make those choices. Even, lets say, they had used cupids on John and Mary and that's why he went around the bend so far. In the end he is still responsible for his actions. He knew, talking to Dean in that hospital room, about how he hadn't taken care of them the way he should have. He understood that he had done wrong. And he still put Dean in that terrible position. In the end it was the entire family not choosing the right path that got them to where they are now. Which, in all honesty, is a rather nasty thing to have for your two main characters IMO,

So back to Adam. Sam and Dean were in front of Guck*. When Kevin was shown to them why didn't one of them say "Hey, that's great and everything and we want the prophet in heaven but what about our brother? The one trapped in hell?" There's really no excuse for why they choose Kevin over Adam and even if the actor for Adam wasn't available they could have done some hand waving like saying he was released long ago, was never there, Michael needs him to not go totally nutso, whatever. 

It leaves a really bad taste in my mouth when they claim to be all about family and totally forget the family they risked a lot trying to save before. 

 

 

*I also hate Guck. I absolutely adore the actor who plays him - he gives the character likability. I am bitter at how they portrayed him and what's amazing is that at any time he could have stopped the breaking of the lock and letting Amara out because, God, and he didn't. Then he blamed the Winchesters. I just really, really dislike him from beginning to end. 

Wish I could do so much more than just like this whole thing!

[trxr4kids]

I've always thought that Adam being in the cage was kind of a retcon for these reasons:

 1) We were told Adam was a backup to Dean. Dean was told that even as Michael's intended vessel it would fry his brain, so wouldn't Adam just die immediately post possession and go back to heaven.

2) Adam was only going to agree if he could be with his mom, in heaven, why wouldn't Michael abide by those terms.

3) When Dean goes to Stull in SS Michael says something like "Adam isn't here right now" which can easily be interpreted as him no longer being in his body, thus in heaven.

It just makes no sense to me regardless of what Death said that Adam was actually there, he was certainly never in Sam's flashbacks and surely making Sam watch as Adam was tortured would give Lucifer satisfaction if it was an option. When Lucifer mentioned Michael playing with himself or whatever it would've been the perfect time to torment Sam and/or Dean about Adam but he wasn't mentioned implying, to me at least, he wasn't there. Also when Guck mentions Michael he says he isn't in any condition to fight, he never says he's still in the cage and since Lucifer is out it would make absolutely no sense for Michael( who can't fight) to be imprisoned still, presumably for fighting, especially since Guck left a free range Lucifer behind.

2 hours ago, Airmid said:

*I also hate Guck. I absolutely adore the actor who plays him - he gives the character likability. I am bitter at how they portrayed him and what's amazing is that at any time he could have stopped the breaking of the lock and letting Amara out because, God, and he didn't. Then he blamed the Winchesters. I just really, really dislike him from beginning to end. 

I couldn't agree more.

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

 1) We were told Adam was a backup to Dean. Dean was told that even as Michael's intended vessel it would fry his brain, so wouldn't Adam just die immediately post possession and go back to heaven.

2) Adam was only going to agree if he could be with his mom, in heaven, why wouldn't Michael abide by those terms.

3) When Dean goes to Stull in SS Michael says something like "Adam isn't here right now" which can easily be interpreted as him no longer being in his body, thus in heaven.

I think they didn't know how to get rid of Adam. So they stuck him in the Cage and hoped that fandom would forget about him and fandom won't let it go LOL

[Airmid]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think they didn't know how to get rid of Adam. So they stuck him in the Cage and hoped that fandom would forget about him and fandom won't let it go LOL

 

Probably because of that pesky theme the writer's/show runners like to pound in about family being first. :P

 

1 hour ago, trxr4kids said:

I've always thought that Adam being in the cage was kind of a retcon for these reasons:

 1) We were told Adam was a backup to Dean. Dean was told that even as Michael's intended vessel it would fry his brain, so wouldn't Adam just die immediately post possession and go back to heaven.

2) Adam was only going to agree if he could be with his mom, in heaven, why wouldn't Michael abide by those terms.

3) When Dean goes to Stull in SS Michael says something like "Adam isn't here right now" which can easily be interpreted as him no longer being in his body, thus in heaven.

It just makes no sense to me regardless of what Death said that Adam was actually there, he was certainly never in Sam's flashbacks and surely making Sam watch as Adam was tortured would give Lucifer satisfaction if it was an option. When Lucifer mentioned Michael playing with himself or whatever it would've been the perfect time to torment Sam and/or Dean about Adam but he wasn't mentioned implying, to me at least, he wasn't there. Also when Guck mentions Michael he says he isn't in any condition to fight, he never says he's still in the cage and since Lucifer is out it would make absolutely no sense for Michael( who can't fight) to be imprisoned still, presumably for fighting, especially since Guck left a free range Lucifer behind.

 

This does bring up an question for me - when demons are in a technically dead body, is the host soul still trapped in there with them or reaped? I thought the soul stayed around but I'm not sure if it was ever addressed or where. Though, if the host soul stays throughout the possession no matter the condition of the body (unless the demon tosses it out, I guess) then wouldn't it be the same for angels? If Michael possessing Adam was so hard that it killed his body but it was kept intact by Michael's power, does that automatically mean Adam is released?

Probably over thinking that part. 

But yeah, they could have just hand waved the whole thing away. Even as late as S11 they had a perfect opportunity for Guck to let them know Death had been messing with Dean and Adam wasn't there (IIRC Death doesn't say that Adam is actually down there, he just makes Dean choose without confirming or denying anything, right?) Dean just assumes Adam's in the pit because his body fell. Even Cas, who wandered down there to pull Sam up, didn't mention seeing Adam. In fact, the whole problem could have been solved as early as the first part of S6 by just having Cas tell Dean - "Hey, I found your brother in his mom's heaven. He never fell. Thought you'd like to know."

Boom. Done.

Would have solved a lot, kept with the show's themes and not had this hanging over the Winchesters. Adam was problematic from beginning to end, which is a shame because it didn't have to be that way. First he was just a one-off we never got to met really (being already dead and all) and then shoved in as a placeholder with no real mention on why an angel so hell bent on destiny would give up on his truly destined vessel that easily. I can't really see Michael being a quitter. 

But that's just me. 

I did see this one thing quite a while back about how the series will finally end. It will be Sam and Dean, driving off down the road listening to classic rock as the screen fades to black. Then: "Shit, we forgot Adam."

I just look how Guck treats his first creations. Michael's the oldest thing he's got (and at least was immensely devoted to him) and he just ditches him in hell even when his help is sorely needed and Guck could probably fix him, at least a little.  Lucifer was, as you so nicely put it, left free range. Not to mention he pretty much leaves Dean in charge whether or not Dean wants the 'keeping the earth spinning' job, with the belated addition of Sam and Guck couldn't even make sure Satan wasn't fluttering around blowing things up on his way out the door. Again.

And it actually would have been nice that in place of painting Michael like a loon, Guck did free him and slap him in a vessel only for Michael to tell him to fuck off and went to go eat Dean's pie instead.

Gah - I just...sorry I have real issues with Guck. 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Probably because of that pesky theme the writer's/show runners like to pound in about family being first. :P

 

Sure, if Adam was worthy of that whole family thing and wasn't an asshole who was fine with selling out  his half-brothers, and humanity for his chance to be with his mom in heaven. LOL.

Edited October 6, 2017 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

29 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Even as late as S11 they had a perfect opportunity for Guck to let them know Death had been messing with Dean and Adam wasn't there (IIRC Death doesn't say that Adam is actually down there, he just makes Dean choose without confirming or denying anything, right?) Dean just assumes Adam's in the pit because his body fell. Even Cas, who wandered down there to pull Sam up, didn't mention seeing Adam.

Exactly, two other reasons I've never thought Adam was actually in the cage.

 

29 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Adam was problematic from beginning to end, which is a shame because it didn't have to be that way. First he was just a one-off we never got to met really (being already dead and all) and then shoved in as a placeholder with no real mention on why an angel so hell bent on destiny would give up on his truly destined vessel that easily. I can't really see Michael being a quitter. 

But that's just me. 

No, it's not just you. It's never made the slightest bit of sense for me other than reasons, several I'm sure. I'm sure if TBTB were asked, one of many would say "we go where the story takes us" which I've translated to mean, "we pull it outta our asses".

Edited October 6, 2017 by trxr4kids
Forgot to bold part

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

No, it's not just you. It's never made the slightest bit of sense for me other than reasons, several I'm sure. I'm sure if TBTB were asked, one of many would say "we go where the story takes us" which I've translated to mean, "we pull it outta our asses".

It doesn't make sense because Dean being Michael's vessel and jumping into the pit, made sense for Dean and Michael. It doesn't make sense for Adam and shoving him into Dean's arc is a big fat mess.

[Airmid]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sure, if Adam was worthy of that whole family thing and wasn't an asshole who was fine with selling out  his half-brothers, and humanity for his chance to be with his mom in heaven. LOL.

So, he was just supposed to trust a bunch of people telling him he's family while he has angels - who culturally are seen as shepherds of mankind and not assholes - asking him to help save the world and offering him heaven with his mom? He doesn't know these people at all and doesn't have any real proof that he's being lied to,

We also don't know what was done to him to make him compliant. I would think after what Zach pulled he would be less ready to hand himself over. It could have been anything from sweet lies to full out torture. We don't know - only that Michael got to slap on his Adam suit in the end.

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It doesn't make sense because Dean being Michael's vessel and jumping into the pit, made sense for Dean and Michael. It doesn't make sense for Adam and shoving him into Dean's arc is a big fat mess.

It would have worked better IMO if they had had Michael come to earth and begin stalking Dean. It would have meant that Michael would have naturally had to show up wearing Adam after Sam says yes. When Dean shows up to distract them, Cas saves him from Michael hauling him off to make him compliant and gives him time with Sam. At least it would make a little more sense.

That still wouldn't excuse Michael in my mind from standing on the edge of a hole into a prison when the keys to open and close it at will were right there. So what if Sam falls? He could have just popped it right back open, or opened it at his convenience. I mean, they're supposed to be keys and keys open doors for two way traffic -

I'm going to stop thinking about this and just say I was very displeased by these things and that they were mixed in with some truly good things.  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Airmid said:

So, he was just supposed to trust a bunch of people telling him he's family while he has angels - who culturally are seen as shepherds of mankind and not assholes - asking him to help save the world and offering him heaven with his mom? He doesn't know these people at all and doesn't have any real proof that he's being lied to,

We also don't know what was done to him to make him compliant. I would think after what Zach pulled he would be less ready to hand himself over. It could have been anything from sweet lies to full out torture. We don't know - only that Michael got to slap on his Adam suit in the end.

 IMO if the show wanted to show Zachariah tormenting Adam they would have done so because we saw him torment Dean and Sam. The only thing Adam was promised was to see his mom again and I can believe that was enough for him but that doesn't mean I feel bad that he was left in the pit and I don't think the Winchesters are bad guys for not getting him out.  But that's just me :)

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sure, if Adam was worthy of that whole family thing and wasn't an asshole who was fine with selling out  his half-brothers, and humanity for his chance to be with his mom in heaven. LOL.

That’s a bit of a contradiction! Are you saying Sam or Dean (and yes both this isn’t a bitch vs jerk thing) wouldn’t sell others out to be with each other?  I doubt that. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

I've always thought that Adam being in the cage was kind of a retcon for these reasons:

 1) We were told Adam was a backup to Dean. Dean was told that even as Michael's intended vessel it would fry his brain, so wouldn't Adam just die immediately post possession and go back to heaven.

2) Adam was only going to agree if he could be with his mom, in heaven, why wouldn't Michael abide by those terms.

3) When Dean goes to Stull in SS Michael says something like "Adam isn't here right now" which can easily be interpreted as him no longer being in his body, thus in heaven.

It just makes no sense to me regardless of what Death said that Adam was actually there, he was certainly never in Sam's flashbacks and surely making Sam watch as Adam was tortured would give Lucifer satisfaction if it was an option. When Lucifer mentioned Michael playing with himself or whatever it would've been the perfect time to torment Sam and/or Dean about Adam but he wasn't mentioned implying, to me at least, he wasn't there. Also when Guck mentions Michael he says he isn't in any condition to fight, he never says he's still in the cage and since Lucifer is out it would make absolutely no sense for Michael( who can't fight) to be imprisoned still, presumably for fighting, especially since Guck left a free range Lucifer behind.

I agree with 2). and 3). and the rest, but as far as 1): I believe Michael promised Dean that he wouldn't leave him a drooling mess like Raphael(?  or maybe it was Uriel?) had left his vessel.  Which, to me, implies that Michael would not have fried Dean's brain - or if he did, he would have fixed it when he left at least.  

[DittyDotDot]

I'm sure there's instances where this doesn't exactly match up, but my understanding is,  when being possessed by either demon or angel, the host remains until the body dies. Meg, the girl, in S1 was still inside until Meg, the demon, was exorcised and her body, being so broken, died. Cass still had Jimmy with him until the end of S5 when Lucifer killed him--and as we saw later, Jimmy was released to Heaven.  

However, considering that it's completely illogical that Micheal is still in the cage in any form at this point, I'm willing to go with either Adam was never in the cage or was released from it long ago:

• Maybe Adam made a deal with Micheal that put him in Heaven and out of his body before the big showdown. Maybe he was tortured; Maybe he just didn't think he could escape the inevitable? Either way, he would've never been in the cage to begin with.
• Or, even better, maybe Adam's soul was never in the body Michael possessed? Adam died via ghoul and got a hunter's funeral and his soul went to Heaven. So perhaps when the angels resurrected Adam's charred remains, they put his consciousness back in him, but not his soul? It's also possible Micheal didn't need Adam's consent for the possession if his soul wasn't in his body, but that's probably a whole different discussion... .
• It also could be that Death retrieved Adam's soul when he retrieved Sam's soul. Granted he told Dean to choose, but he also told Dean he would only retrieve Sam's soul if Dean wore the ring for a whole day... . Could be that Death was just dicking with Dean by making him choose and all. It's not like that was unprecedented.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

It also could be that Death retrieved Adam's soul when he retrieved Sam's soul. Granted he told Dean to choose, but he also told Dean he would only retrieve Sam's soul if Dean wore the ring for a whole day... . Could be that Death was just dicking with Dean by making him choose and all. It's not like that was unprecedented.

I like this one the best - just because I like the idea of Death being snarky and messing with the guys, and then doing something nice without them even knowing it.  Death doesn't seem to need the kind of affirmation that most angels do.  

Plus, it probably bothered his sense of 'the natural order of things' to leave Adam's soul, which had previously been in Heaven, down in the Cage.  

[Airmid]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm sure there's instances where this doesn't exactly match up, but my understanding is,  when being possessed by either demon or angel, the host remains until the body dies. Meg, the girl, in S1 was still inside until Meg, the demon, was exorcised and her body, being so broken, died. Cass still had Jimmy with him until the end of S5 when Lucifer killed him--and as we saw later, Jimmy was released to Heaven.  

 

Taking my response to this to the All Episode Thread - think that's the best place.