Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Reganne]

7 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Donna, Ellen and Rufus never showed a preference for either brother as I recall. Zachariah, Dick and Abbadon were villains who didn't care which brother was tormented. Dean may have been the one in their faces more than Sam but they certainly didn't have a preference. I wouldn't count Benny and Alastair either; one was met in Purgatory so of course he's going to be closer to Dean and the other was his torturer in Hell which doesn't equal fondness in my book. I get the examples of Jo & Pam but it's been ages since they've even been around whereas the poster up thread seemed to imply that every new character fawns over Dean while ignoring Sam which I don't agree with.

I never said they all ignore Sam and fawn over Dean.  I said they gravitate more towards Dean .  Cas has said he has a bigger bond with Dean and that has never changed though he does think of Sam as a friend as well.  Bobby has also said that Dean is his favourite.  You also have characters like Charlie who has more bonding moments with Dean.   Still friends with Sam though and of course Crowley who is much closer to Dean.

[Reganne]

55 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think Jodie does.

This could be true.  I guess I never gave a thought to who Jodie could be closer to, but I could see it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Lucifer literally told Sam in "Free to Be You and Me " he was his true vessel. And to him that Nick was Plan B.. Literally.

I never said "true vessel" wasn't cannon.  I only said the "One True Vessel" thing that some like to 'quote' (only it isn't really a quote) wasn't cannon.  And it isn't.  As you actually just pointed out.  

As for the Plan B.  What I was talking about was not Plan B.  But part b of The Plan.  You know like:

An Outline of The Plan: to get Lucifer released from the cage
1-65. Break the seals.
66. Get Sam to kill Lilith to break the last seal.
      a. Sam needs to be juiced up on demon blood to serve as a vessel for Our Dark Lord.
      b. Sam needs to be present when Lucifer is released so Our Dark Lord can possess him.  

[catrox14]

 @AwesomO4000

 

Quote

Dean doesn't have the stigma of that part of it, since he hasn't been saddled with being the direct cause of some awful evil being unleashed on the world - both Sam and Castiel each have two of those, all with multiple large body count

I don't understand this. Dean broke the first seal. If the first seal doesn't break then nothing happens. And he was included with Sam as the starters of the  apocalypse. If Dean had never sold his soul, he doesn't go to Hell and doesn't break the first seal.  Dean has the stigma of selling his soul, being a demon and murdering at least 10 human beings whether they were bad guys and deserved it, he still brutally murdered them was responsible for Rudy's death. The show put him on equal footing with releasing the Darkness and responsible for stopping it. I guess I don't see Sam as having anymore stigma attached to him than Dean. And if he did have a stigma he always gotten redemption. I suppose it comes down to whether one thinks redemption outweighs the stigma. I think it does.

[Katy M]

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 11:31 PM, trxr4kids said:

Emphasis mine: That is precisely my problem with how this show has consistently treated anything Deancentric. Dean and his actions are treated as insignificant in the scheme of things by TPTB except in regards to how his actions effect Sam, most recently taking on the MoC and becoming a demon. The MoC only became world changing when Sam did something (the seals and apocalypse all over again) . I get that that annoys Sam fans but as a Dean fan it pisses me off or it would if I wasn't so apathetic at this point.

You know, I've always kind of seen that as the opposite.  Sam does something and the whole world goes to crap, or he kills innocent people, or whatnot.  If Sam had killed Death, there would have been major ramifications such as nobody dying anymore, and another mess that Sam and Dean have to clean up.  But, since Dean did it, it's just kind of awesome. Hey, Dean killed Death.  I don't really care that much either way, because I like both of them.  But, I've kind of noticed that Sam gets a bum deal when it comes to consequences.

Even when it comes to coming back from the dead.  Sam dies and Dean sells his soul to bring him back. Dean dies, angels rescue him, yes, he had broken the first seal, but that was while he was in Hell, not because he came back.  Sam dies again at the end of Swan Song and is brought back without his soul.  Mayhem ensues.  Dean dies at the end of Survival of the Fittest and has to fight his way back, but nothing bad comes of his coming back.  He even gets a friends out of the deal--temporarily, but let's face it all their friends are temporary.  OK, next time he dies he becomes a demon, so there is that.  But, even then all he does is sing bad karaoke, make some girl feel bad about herself and kill some guy who hired a hit man to kill his wife.  He didn't shoot the hostage, try to kill Bobby, or piss off a bunch of arachnes he didn't kill.

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand this. Dean broke the first seal. If the first seal doesn't break then nothing happens. And he was included with Sam as the starters of the  apocalypse. If Dean had never sold his soul, he doesn't go to Hell and doesn't break the first seal. 

And likewise, If Sam doesn't break the last seal, then also nothing happens. It just so happens that Sam's breaking the last seal was the thing that released Lucifer. Dean's breaking the first seal could arguably be said to have started off the minor incidences - the few deaths that occurred as the seals broke - but once Sam broke the final seal, he was the one that caused Lucifer to rise, so from then on, everything that happened got shifted to Sam, and of course that's when the thousands of deaths occurred.

As for Dean being mentioned in the starting of the apocalypse, I agree that two characters did that - Alastair and Castiel - in one season, season 4. But Castiel pretty much said that it wasn't Dean's fault, but his fate. The only other person who acknowledged Dean breaking the first seal and being a part of starting the actual problem was Dean, early in season 5, and by episode 5, even he had shifted all of the blame over to Sam when he said to Bobby on the phone sarcastically "well, we all know who's fault that (the apocalypse and/or Lucifer) is." From then on, the blame went to Sam with multiple characters bringing it up including Dean and Castiel, and it still being mentioned by random characters into season 9. When the hunters killed Sam for it, they even made sure to mention that killing Sam was right, and that they were only killing Dean because he was a witness. Even Joshua, arguably the nicest angel (besides Cas) of the bunch made sure to look right at only Sam as he said "And after all that you've done, too." So basically, Dean might have broken the first seal, but the damage was minimal. The stigma came from raising Lucifer, and that was put solely on Sam, and was reflected accordingly over the next 4 1/2 seasons (Sera gave Sam a bit of a break, I will admit, thankfully, because Carver picked it right back up again.)

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean has the stigma of selling his soul, being a demon and murdering at least 10 human beings whether they were bad guys and deserved it, he still brutally murdered them was responsible for Rudy's death.

Sam has the stigma of being a demon blood junkie who killed an innocent nurse - not even a hint there of her being bad like the youngest Stein had - and his raising of Lucifer caused thousands of deaths. Yes, he thankfully got some redemption for that.

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The show put him on equal footing with releasing the Darkness and responsible for stopping it. I guess I don't see Sam as having anymore stigma attached to him than Dean. And if he did have a stigma he always gotten redemption. I suppose it comes down to whether one thinks redemption outweighs the stigma. I think it does.

I didn't see the show put Dean on equal footing with Sam for releasing the Darkness. And again over 1000 people were killed. The only one who even mentioned Dean having any role at all - and he was referring to the saving each other at any costs rut they'd gotten themselves into - was Sam. And in case it wasn't clear that it was Sam's fault from the entire set up of season 10 to show us it was, there was God making a point of saying that demon Dean wasn't anything to worry about, it was Sam who caused the problem. To which Metatron replied that they were trying to fix it. However, it was Dean who fixed the problem and saved the world. Sam played the role of cheerleader. So while I liked season 11 a lot, I wouldn't exactly call it Sam getting redemption there.

 I think my original statement stands. Both Sam and Castiel have unleashed two apocalyptic forces onto the world (Lucifer and the Darkness for Sam, the Leviathans and Metatron/the fallen angels for Cas). They each got redemption for one of those. Dean stopped the other one for each of them.

Edited to add: Reading this back after posting - I had to go and so had to post before a final go through - I realize this sounds a bit harsher than I intended, so I apologize if that is the case.

I can't even say that I disagree that Sam deserved some blame for Lucifer being raised - though I do think he got a bit more than he deserved, considering angel interference - but the main point that I was trying to make here is that even though Sam got credit for saving the world in "Swan Song," he had a LOT to make up for, as illustrated by how often and how long in the show his reputation for starting the apocalypse was mentioned. So even though Sam does have the hero label, he also has the "raised Lucifer" and "caused the Darkness" label hanging over his head - which is why I said it was a double edged sword in that regard.

And I still stand by that.

Edited February 23, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, Reganne said:

I never said they all ignore Sam and fawn over Dean.  I said they gravitate more towards Dean .  Cas has said he has a bigger bond with Dean and that has never changed though he does think of Sam as a friend as well.  Bobby has also said that Dean is his favourite.  You also have characters like Charlie who has more bonding moments with Dean.   Still friends with Sam though and of course Crowley who is much closer to Dean.

I didn't state that it was a direct quote; I said it was implied because that was my interpretation of your post.

[MysteryGuest]

I guess I'm a bit surprised that this is such a big issue for so many people.  I just don't see it as a competition between the brothers and who gets what kills, or who's friends with whom, etc.  I've always pretty much thought of them as a unit...two brothers fighting the good fight, while all sorts of bad shit happens around them...some of which they're responsible for themselves, and some that's just arbitrarily done to them.  

I knew right from episode one that Sam's story was going to be the central theme.  Mother dies trying to protect him from some demon, then his girlfriend dies at the hands of the same demon...I think it was pretty obvious that he was marked somehow.  And while I believe that Dean's character may have started out as more "supporting",  I don't think that continued for very long at all.  I think TPTB realized early on what they had in Jensen, and the show quickly became a vehicle for two co-stars.  Sam's demon connection was still the big story, but we got to see that story through Dean's eyes.  

I was team Dean right from the get go, but I've really never felt that he was mistreated by the writers.  He may not have gotten the multiple personality roles that Sam got, but I think Dean always got the majority of the big emotional scenes and most of the comedic ones, which absolutely showcased his acting range.  

There have been two main instances where I've been annoyed with the writers on Dean's behalf, and that was Demon Dean and his return trip to Hell last season.  Demon Dean was resolved far too quickly, and too much of it was played for comedy.  He should have been at least as dark as an actual demon as he was with the MOC, but they screwed that up, big time.  And they absolutely should have acknowledged that Dean had been to Hell before, and should have given us something (other than just Jensen's stellar acting) to show how that affected him.

I have a lot of bitches where the writing is concerned on this show, but very little of it has to do with how they split the character roles.  I just want the writing to be better, period.  

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Demon Dean was resolved far too quickly, and too much of it was played for comedy.  He should have been at least as dark as an actual demon as he was with the MOC, but they screwed that up, big time.

This is very true but when you think about it a lot of the demons are portrayed as having a kind of dark humor about them mixed in with the evil. I guess that's what they were aiming for with Demon Dean but I agree that I also hoped that with the addition of the Mark he would be a bit more chilling along the lines of how Cain seemed to be.

Edited February 23, 2017 by DeeDee79

[Reganne]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

I didn't state that it was a direct quote; I said it was implied because that was my interpretation of your post.

That wasn't my intention.  I know characters like Bobby, Charlie and Cas have a relationship with Sam.  They just have a bigger bond with Dean is all.  Most characters on the show do.  Though it doesn't have to be entirely equal among the two characters, sometimes it just seems a little too one sided with whom the characters bond with more.  At least for me.  However, someone in this thread brought up Jodie, and I could definitely see her as being a character to possibly bond with Sam more.

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I never said "true vessel" wasn't cannon.  I only said the "One True Vessel" thing that some like to 'quote' (only it isn't really a quote) wasn't cannon.  And it isn't.  As you actually just pointed out.  

Okay well I guess I've totally lost the thread of this discussion.  It seemed to me you were disputing the idea that Dean and Sam were THE TRUE vessels for Michael and Lucifer. 

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Reganne said:

That wasn't my intention.  I know characters like Bobby, Charlie and Cas have a relationship with Sam.  They just have a bigger bond with Dean is all.  Most characters on the show do.  Though it doesn't have to be entirely equal among the two characters, sometimes it just seems a little too one sided with whom the characters bond with more.  At least for me.  However, someone in this thread brought up Jodie, and I could definitely see her as being a character to possibly bond with Sam more.

I can understand your viewpoint. I don't see others favoring one brother over the other but that's just me. The ones that gravitate towards Dean ( Crowley, Charlie, Castiel, Donna ) have been shown in situations in which Dean happened to be the brother that they connected with. As much as I adore Dean we see that Sam is the overall more empathetic brother in contrast to Dean's blunt ( but endearing! ) nature. Even if the person that he connected with was a creature that they would normally hunt doesn't take away from that.

For all of the characters that have connected with Dean, Sam has had his own connections both good and evil throughout the series. Off the top of my head: Missouri, Sarah, Meg, Lenore, the mother from Playthings, Madison, Ruby, all of the Campbell's, Jody, the psychic from the Mentalists, Eileen from Into The Mystic and more recently Magda, Eileen, Elvis, Alicia, Max & Lily Sunder from season 12.  This is not a small or shabby list IMO as they were all good characters.

Also to be honest I was surprised when Bobby declared Dean to be his favorite. I thought that it was just a plot point considering in this particular ep people were being hit with the truth after they asked for it and they needed to show Dean getting clarification that he had been cursed as well. If not for that scene I wouldn't have thought that he had any preference since he didn't treat them differently in my opinion. Except maybe after Soulless Sam which was understandable because Bobby needed a while to get over being nearly killed by someone he considered to be his son.

[Reganne]

17 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

 

For all of the characters that have connected with Dean, Sam has had his own connections both good and evil throughout the series. Off the top of my head: Missouri, Sarah, Meg, Lenore, the mother from Playthings, Madison, Ruby, all of the Campbell's, Jody, the psychic from the Mentalists, Eileen from Into The Mystic and more recently Magda, Eileen, Elvis, Alicia, Max & Lily Sunder from season 12.  This is not a small or shabby list IMO as they were all good characters.

 

I didn't really include any villains as I don't really think there were any true bonds made.  With Ruby for instance, it was all pure manipulation on her part.  I was also mostly referring to recurring characters.  These characters are the ones they actually have time to bond with and actually form a friendship with.  I don't know if I would include the Campbell's either.  They worked with soulessSam and Samuel sold them out to Crowley so I don't think he cared much about him to begin with.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Reganne said:

I didn't really include any villains as I don't really think there were any true bonds made.  With Ruby for instance, it was all pure manipulation on her part.  I was also mostly referring to recurring characters.  These characters are the ones they actually have time to bond with and actually form a friendship with.  I don't know if I would include the Campbell's either.  They worked with soulessSam and Samuel sold them out to Crowley so I don't think he cared much about him to begin with.

The rest of the Campbell clan still preferred Sam after they met Dean and most of them save Samuel didn't know he was soulless. I count them because they were family however unscrupulous they turned out to be. Sam knew Ruby wasn't on the up and up from the moment he met her in season 3 but she still favored him over Dean. IMO in regards to recurring characters they both shared a bond with the majority of them with the exception of the villains. My point being each brothers have had a character that connected more closely with them whether it be good or evil while at times there was also shown to be a preference between the two. I see them as pretty evenly matched regarding their bonds with regulars but of course your viewpoint doesn't have to match with mine.

[Reganne]

18 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

The rest of the Campbell clan still preferred Sam after they met Dean and most of them save Samuel didn't know he was souless.

I think the fact that they only knew him when he was souless, means they actually really didn't know him at all.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Okay well I guess I've totally lost the thread of this discussion.  It seemed to me you were disputing the idea that Dean and Sam were THE TRUE vessels for Michael and Lucifer. 

At one time they may have been TRUE vessels for Michael and Lucifer.  (That only means that, due to their bloodline, they were capable of holding them.)  I don't think they are any longer - regardless of their bloodlines.  Oh, I guess they could maybe still hold them, but I don't think either archangel particularly wants them as hosts anymore, which, imo, demotes their status a good bit.  And I certainly don't think they were the ONE TRUE Vessels - or as that seems to be interpreted quite often the ONLY TRUE vessels.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Sam knew Ruby wasn't on the up and up from the moment he met her in season 3 but she still favored him over Dean.

Ruby wanted something from Sam - for him to be Lucifer's vessel.  If Dean had been the 'chosen one' she would have favored him, imo.  So I've got to agree with @Reganne on that one.

I don't think Sheriff Jody favors either.  She seems pretty balanced.  Sheriff Donna I would have to say leans more toward Dean - they both seem to have the same sense of humor and love of doughnuts.  :)  

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Ruby wanted something from Sam - for him to be Lucifer's vessel.  If Dean had been the 'chosen one' she would have favored him, imo.  So I've got to agree with @Reganne on that one.

But the point was characters that favored Sam over Dean in regards to recurring characters which is why she counts in my opinion. The same as how Castiel would favor Dean because he's Heaven's "chosen one".

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

At one time they may have been TRUE vessels for Michael and Lucifer.  (That only means that, due to their bloodline, they were capable of holding them.)  I don't think they are any longer - regardless of their bloodlines.  Oh, I guess they could maybe still hold them, but I don't think either archangel particularly wants them as hosts anymore, which, imo, demotes their status a good bit.  And I certainly don't think they were the ONE TRUE Vessels - or as that seems to be interpreted quite often the ONLY TRUE vessels.  

Okay.  I'll just go ahead and agree to disagree. Thanks for clarifying.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Reganne said:

I think the fact that they only knew him when he was souless, means they actually really didn't know him at all.  

That is fine if that is your viewpoint. As stated before, this is only my opinion.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

But the point was characters that favored Sam over Dean in regards to recurring characters which is why she counts in my opinion. The same as how Castiel would favor Dean because he's Heaven's "chosen one".

Oh.  I guess I thought that it meant characters who favored one brother over the other without having some ulterior motive (which, I really think should be a consideration if there is to be a "fair" count.)  But okay.  

Edited February 23, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[Reganne]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh.  I guess I thought that it meant characters who favored one brother over the other without having some ulterior motive (which, I really think should be a consideration if there is to be a "fair" count.)  But okay.  

In my original post, I had referred to characters that gravitate towards Dean over Sam.  I was referring more to bonds and friendships of recurring characters through the series, but I didn't initially specify that.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I guess I thought that it meant characters who favored one brother over the other without having some ulterior motive.  My mistake.

It's actually a little of both. As seen below:

3 hours ago, Reganne said:

With Ruby for instance, it was all pure manipulation on her part.  I was also mostly referring to recurring characters.

When Castiel pulled Dean from Hell it was because he was the chosen one that would end the apocalypse because he broke the first seal. However fond of him Cas has grown throughout the seasons God and the angels had an ulterior motive for latching onto Dean in the beginning much like Ruby's attachment to Sam.

[AwesomO4000]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

The rest of the Campbell clan still preferred Sam after they met Dean and most of them save Samuel didn't know he was soulless.

But not only was Sam soulless, one of those Campbells was actually a demon. I would maybe count Gwen, but that's about all.

I actually don't care that Sam only has a few recurring characters that seem to gravitate more towards him it is what it is. I agree with @Wayward Son that it's mainly a difference in how Sam and Dean relate to people. That said I do enjoy when we get a character who really likes Sam, because it does seem - to me anyway - to happen less often.  And season 11 was a good year for other characters relating to Sam.

Quote

Donna, Ellen and Rufus never showed a preference for either brother as I recall.

I mostly included Rufus in my original list, because Rufus and Dean had that bonding conversation about hunting over the bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue while Dean was looking for information about Bella.

Quote

Zachariah, Dick and Abbadon were villains who didn't care which brother was tormented. Dean may have been the one in their faces more than Sam but they certainly didn't have a preference.

Dean was the one who made it personal for Dick, because Dean did get in Dick's face, but I agree it wasn't by much. But Abadon was definitely more interested in Dean. Her interest was extremely creepy actually in that she was showing almost a sexual interest in Dean. I wouldn't say that this was a positive thing by any means, but it was there.

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think Sheriff Jody favors either.  

I would say she does, mostly because of circumstance in which they met. Sam was the one who saved her... and had to go back in and take care of her zombified son for her so that she didn't have to. I think they formed a bond over that. I also think that of the two brothers that Rowena is probably more associated with and/or has more of a fondness for Sam  - if that's possible for Rowena anyway. So for me those would be the main two who favor Sam.

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

But the point was characters that favored Sam over Dean in regards to recurring characters which is why she counts in my opinion. The same as how Castiel would favor Dean because he's Heaven's "chosen one".

Except that Castiel is good while Ruby is a villain and always had ulterior motives that Castiel doesn't anymore. I agree Ruby is more associated with Sam, but I believe I said in my original response that a lot of the characters often more associated with Sam were evil, manipulating him, or both rather than friendly. I'm not exactly sure that's a positive thing.

[Reganne]

13 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

It's actually a little of both. As seen below:

When Castiel pulled Dean from Hell it was because he was the chosen one that would end the apocalypse because he broke the first seal. However fond of him Cas has grown throughout the seasons God and the angels had an ulterior motive for latching onto Dean in the beginning much like Ruby's attachment to Sam.

It may have started like that, but Cas and Deans friendship grew from there.  To the point where Cas essentially betrayed the angels and helped Dean.  In the end, Cas gave up on his ulterior motive for Dean.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Except that Castiel is good while Ruby is a villain and always had ulterior motives that Castiel doesn't anymore. I agree Ruby is more associated with Sam, but I believe I said in my original response that a lot of the characters often more associated with Sam were evil, manipulating him, or both rather than friendly. I'm not exactly sure that's a positive thing.

Considering some of Castiel's mishaps in which he's beat Dean to a bloody pulp maybe it's to Sam's benefit that he wasn't the "bonded" brother :)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I also think that of the two brothers that Rowena is probably more associated with and/or has more of a fondness for Sam  - if that's possible for Rowena anyway.

I'm not even so sure of that anymore after "Regarding Dean.".

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Reganne said:

It may have started like that, but Cas and Deans friendship grew from there.  To the point where Cas essentially betrayed the angels and helped Dean.  In the end, Cas gave up on his ulterior motive for Dean.

And has now become a true friend to both Sam and Dean. As I've stated more than once he doesn't show preference between the brothers these days as he's done in the beginning of his introduction.

[AwesomO4000]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Considering some of Castiel's mishaps in which he's beat Dean to a bloody pulp maybe it's to Sam's benefit that he wasn't the "bonded" brother :)

Not entirely disagreeing there, but considering Castiel broke Sam's hell wall, being the "non-bonded" brother wasn't so great either. ; )

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm not even so sure of that anymore after "Regarding Dean.".

Good point.

Edited to add:

Quote

And has now become a true friend to both Sam and Dean. As I've stated more than once he doesn't show preference between the brothers these days as he's done in the beginning of his introduction.

But this is a relatively new thing, for a large majority of the previous seasons Castiel has been on, he has shown a preference for and a greater bond with Dean, so I'm not going to entirely discount the previous history of the show.

Edited February 23, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Not entirely disagreeing there, but considering Castiel broke Sam's hell wall, being the "non-bonded" brother wasn't so great either. ; )

Touché!

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm not even so sure of that anymore after "Regarding Dean.".

Which is only one instance of her talking to instead of trying to kill Dean because Sam made her stay with him and she knew he didn't have his wits about him.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But this is a relatively new thing, for a large majority of the previous seasons Castiel has been on, he has shown a preference for and a greater bond with Dean, so I'm not going to entirely discount the previous history of the show.

This may be so but I don't see the need to keep score regarding which brothers has more friends.

[sarthaz]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This may be so but I don't see the need to keep score regarding which brothers has more friends.

This thread is strange. :)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This may be so but I don't see the need to keep score regarding which brothers has more friends.

I could be wrong of course, but I believe the original comment was an observation about how it seemed to the poster that in general more people tend to gravitate to Dean over Sam initially.  And a simple wish that there would be a few more who would gravitate toward Sam, at least initially.  

And then it devolved into score-keeping from there.  

That was my impression anyway.  

1 minute ago, sarthaz said:

This thread is strange. :)

Yup!  :)

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

This thread is strange. :)

Isn't it though? ?

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I could be wrong of course, but I believe the original comment was an observation about how it seemed to the poster that in general more people tend to gravitate to Dean over Sam initially.  And a simple wish that there would be a few more who would gravitate toward Sam, at least initially.  

And then it devolved into score-keeping from there.  

That was my impression anyway.  

 

That was indeed how it began but sometimes things spiral into something entirely different  ☹️

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Can we move on please, I don't want to have to start a scoreboard on this subject!

Thanks.

[ILoveReading]

The biggest problem with Mary is the writing failures.  The show seems to think its all or nothing. That if they show her cleaning the bunker or cooking for her sons it somehow lessens her as a character or reduces her to mom.  Although the show has no problem with Dean doing all that, even relegating him to it for half a season.  We've seen him ironing, cooking and cleaning.

They are so busy trying to establish Mary as some bad ass they've forgotten the most important thing. Her connection to Sam and Dean.  Right now its like she's more more than a fellow hunter.  I know that Mary is a stranger but even now, 5 months later it still feels like Mary is a stranger.  We've seen one scene of Mary trying to establish a connection to the men in front of her.  Right now everything between them seems so impersonal.  Even their communication.  It seems Mary texts once a week to let them know she's alive and and calls on them when she needs help.  Does she ever pop in just to say hello? 

So when Mary offers to sacrifice herself I can't help but question her motives.  Its like when John sold his soul.   It was good that John gave up his mission for his son, but before he did that he laid the save Sam/ kill Sam order on Dean.  You can make a strong argument that he did it because he knew he wouldn't be strong enough to do what needed to be done, or that he didn't trust that Sam would stay with him if Dean died.  I don't think its black and white either/or situation but I do think both factors came into play in John's decision.

The same with Mary's sacrifice.  When you establish the boys in her memory mean more than the one in front of her and fail to have show any personal interest it make me question if part of the reason she wanted to sacrifice is to get back to Heaven.  Like, John I do think both things factored into her decision.   

Edited February 23, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

I think the writers wanted to a create a new character. Which is fine. But then DO create a new character. Don`t bring one in with a backstory already in place. 

If everyone from the writers to the actress didn`t care for the "mother" part of the character, then, sorry to say, Mary was the wrong character to bring back. They could have brought in simply another hunter for that. John was complex, he was both father and hunter, basically his own person but his connection to the brothers worked both ways. Have some balance between the aspects of the character. 

Mary right now seems to be there to bring some angst for the brothers on their end but otherwise simply be completely her own person. A person that I don`t even find likeable or interesting. Right now I think she is Mary Winchester of canon in name and someone different named Mary onscreen. The dichotomy is way too stark for my taste.    

I knew when they brought her back, it would be awkward but I didn`t think I would feel like Mary Winchester is effectively still dead. Her flashback appearances in Sam Smith-form were all very brief and focused on the nurturing mother aspect (or once Eve posing as a villian/Zachariah puppetering her) and it`s fine if the character branches out from that. I fully expected it because that could never sustain a recurring presence on the show which we have now. But right now you might just well call the character "Marnie Wanchester" and pretend it`s an entirely new one. No throughline whatsoever.  

[DittyDotDot]

I guess the truly unpopular opinion is: I'm enjoying how they deconstructed the myth of Mary; I think they were very smart to do this, myself. And, I think they've mostly done it well. 

[Myrelle]

I'd have to lay some of this at Sam Smith's feet, too. I didn't realize it before this season(and likely because of how sparsely she was used previously on this show), but to me(and possibly an unpopular opinion) she's a been very much a one-note actress in most of her episodes this season, and what she's doing right now and especially since she decided to leave the bunker, simply requires more. So much more. I'm sure they're going to try and soften her up in upcoming episodes, but for me, between the inattention of the writing(as to how badly they've made her look, that is) and again her lack in being able to give us more nuance/layers in the character, I'm just seeing a poor man's John Winchester in Mary right now. And I could not stand John Winchester from the get-go, even while I could understand why others might have liked him because of JDM.

But yeah, not sure getting all dewy-eyed over her sons and just wanting to save them from the hunting life is going to make up for what it sounds like mainly the writing did to the character in last week's episode. Same as with John for me.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Myrelle

[rue721]

@DittyDotDot

Quote

I'm enjoying how they deconstructed the myth of Mary; I think they were very smart to do this, myself. And, I think they've mostly done it well. 

I like where they've been going with Mary, too.

It's interesting that she's such a loner and so reserved. In retrospect, I think her characterization makes a lot of sense. I mean considering what her parents were like, what her background is like, etc.

The only thing that I wish they would build on is -- why does she never seem to have any friends? Just regular buddies, like other women that she likes hanging around or whatever. It just seems weird.

Anyway, I would actually like it if they went darker with her and make her even more of a tortured soul. Not that this show is light on tortured souls, so I guess it's fine either way. ;)

My other UO about Mary is that I think she's been very kind to Sam and Dean on a personal level. Like when she left the bunker, I think she did that in a very kind, loving way. As much as possible given the circumstances. I don't think she's been shown as a bad mother. I'm just not sure yet whether or not she's a bad PERSON lol. ;)

ETA

You know, I take that back about it being weird that she doesn't have any regular friends. I guess John was her best friend, so without him and without any family, I guess it actually makes perfect sense that she really has no one.

Edited February 23, 2017 by rue721

[Myrelle]

I've seen her being referred to as "evil" after last week's episode. Well who knows, maybe Amara messed up and brought her back "wrong" in some way. *shrugs*

[companionenvy]

I don't see Mary as just a generic hunter character, given that they've consistently addressed her dislocation at being back from the dead, trouble relating to her boys, Dean's disappointment, etc. Those issues aren't necessarily going to come up in every episode she's in, but they've been reasonably well established, IMO, especially given that this is a show that isn't always stellar in its emotional continuity. 

I also don't see her as that similar to John. Both are hunters who left their sons, but the circumstances are wildly different. John was leaving young children alone for extended periods and, during season one, totally disappeared without giving Dean an indication of where, why, or when he'd return. Mary, in a very difficult emotional situation, told her adult sons that she needed some time and space, and since then has been keeping in at least occasional contact with them. While I agree that, messed up as she may be, she has an obligation to be more present than she is, that's still a far cry from John Winchester. Plus, John's faults as a parent went way farther than not being around. He prioritized revenge over giving a stable home to his kids, pressured them into following his path, to the extent of being angry that his teenage son was going to college, and constantly expressed disapproval for their failure to live up to his unreasonable expectations, especially in Dean's case. Mary hasn't given her sons (and, again, the fact that they are adults matters here) all that much validation, and it is clear that she isn't happy that they are hunters, but she has never blamed them. 

So far, I think the show has done a pretty good job of making Mary a problematic character without demonizing her, or making her return an utter devastation for her sons. As I've said before, I'm afraid that the Mary-plot is going to wind up with Sam and Dean having to suffer her loss again, or worse, breaking with her when she makes a full-on evil turn (although I don't actually think the latter will happen), but as of now, I'm willing to wait and see what the resolution to all this is. 

[MysteryGuest]

I don't see Mary as evil by any means.  I think she's a bit misguided to think that she can trust the BMOL, but she probably believes that she is in control and doesn't really have to trust them to use them to get the end result she wants.  I have the same issue with Mary working behind the backs of Sam and Dean as I used to have when they did it to each other.  It's just frustrating as hell.

I thought the opening episodes of this season did a good job to establish Mary's feelings of being a stranger in a strange land, and also showing the emotional rollercoaster Sam and Dean have experienced by having her back.  My issue now is that we've been in this sort of limbo state a little too long for my taste.  At the end of the Asa Fox episode, Mary said she was coming home.  Not right away, but soon.  Now weeks or months have gone by, and nothing has really changed.  I thought we'd see her getting closer to her boys by now.  It's never going to be a typical mother/son relationship, but I figured they'd be finding their way to something better than what they have.  

Sam and Dean respond to her as a mother, as evidenced by the diner scene when she scolded them.  But the writers haven't given us anything to show that she's actually taken on that roll in any way.  And after almost getting them all killed last week, they're going to have to give me more information about what's going on in her head, and why she's so willing to risk their lives.  The idea that she's working with the BMOL to allow her boys to move on from hunting doesn't really fly if she gets them killed in the process.

[Casseiopeia]

So far I don't see either mom or dad being parent of the year.  The difference being that John never used his sons as bait or cover for a clandestine operation for a foriegn faction.  He kept them away presumably because he didn't want Sam anywhere near the YED and he was hoping that Dean would be strong enough to keep them safe.  Which he was.  Mary on the other hand used an innocent man (and got him killed), lied to and deceived Cas, Dean and Sam, risked all their lives when she wouldn't give up the Colt (I think Dean is on to her) and looks to have given over the most powerful weapon anyone has ever known to that foreign faction.  The one that brutally tortured her son and almost killed all three of them.  And then blamed the BMOL's for the caper gone wrong.  I am not on the Mary bandwagon atm.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

So far I don't see either mom or dad being parent of the year.  The difference being that John never used his sons as bait or cover for a clandestine operation for a foriegn faction.

John used Dean as bait for the vampires in Dead Man's Blood.  It was a pretty risky venture and could have gotten Dean killed. 

[Casseiopeia]

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

John used Dean as bait for the vampires in Dead Man's Blood.  It was a pretty risky venture and could have gotten Dean killed. 

Dean knew what John had planned.  He was prepared for what happened next.  The difference here was that Sam and Dean were in the dark.  They had no idea they were being used as cover for Mary's burglary.  Mary didn't want them asking questions so they hadn't prepared for the hunt like they would have normally.  They would have investigated what kind of demon they were up against.  Even Castiel seemed confused that they were going after a demon that liked to fish and hadn't apparently harmed anyone.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

Dean knew what John had planned.  He was prepared for what happened next.  The difference here was that Sam and Dean were in the dark.  They had no idea they were being used as cover for Mary's burglary.  Mary didn't want them asking questions so they hadn't prepared for the hunt like they would have normally.  They would have investigated what kind of demon they were up against.  Even Castiel seemed confused that they were going after a demon that liked to fish and hadn't apparently harmed anyone.

Don't get me wrong. I"m not pitting John and Mary against each other here. I'm just saying that John has actually used Dean as bait so Mary isn't alone in that.  Seemed to me that John must have used Dean as bait previously for Dean to know what to expect. Makes me wonder just how often he did that.

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Don't get me wrong. I"m not pitting John and Mary against each other here. I'm just saying that John has actually used Dean as bait so Mary isn't alone in that.  Seemed to me that John must have used Dean as bait previously for Dean to know what to expect. Makes me wonder just how often he did that.

Well according to Meg (Sam) he did use Jo's Dad as bait.  Seems to have been his thing.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Well according to Meg (Sam) he did use Jo's Dad as bait.  Seems to have been his thing.

True that.