Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Myrelle]

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Well, I was thinking more in terms of a big, splashy sacrifice (like Sam jumping into the pit) that can be seen by others (and maybe even praised) as an act of redemption.

I was okay with what was given to us as Dean's "redemptive" act, but writing-wise, ITA; it was definitely not as big or splashy or dramatic as Sam's. I understood what you were trying to say.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

22 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Dean spent the year Sam was missing/in the Cage with Lisa and Ben, suffering horribly and trying everything he could to get him out.  Sam spent the year Dean was missing/in Purgatory with Amelia--playing with a dog.  Just sayin'!

 

18 hours ago, mertensia said:

Eh, I still firmly believe that Sam collapsed mentally. Dean is gone-who knows where. Cats is gone, too. He's alone and that's it. He just can't cope.

And the fact that Sam spent the year with Angry Lady IS suffering horribly in my book!  (And some pretty damn good proof that he wasn't in his right mind.)  ;)

[rue721]

On 9/23/2016 at 0:34 PM, Bessie said:

I really do find it kind of hilarious. I mean we just wrapped up Dean's seasons- long dark arc. Comparing the endings of Sam's dark arc and Dean's dark arc kind of sums it up for me. Sam's trapped in a cage with two vengeful archangels in the darkest pits of hell for all eternity. Dean is suffering horribly but he's got Lisa and Ben to help him deal.

Honestly, to me it's not even about who's got it worse.

It's more like...with Sam, there's always some jerk popping up out of the background and going MWAHAHAHAHA THIS WAS ALL PART OF MY DASTARDLY PLAN! Sam is endlessly entangled in some villain's evil Rube Goldberg bullshit. Whereas Dean seems like he's more often caught in what is basically just an unfortunate confluence of events. (Which maybe doesn't make it easier, but it does make it less...absurd?).

Like how Dean was an obedient kid pressured by his father (and by his own need to please) into becoming a hunter. Versus how Sam was targeted by YED to be fed demon blood as an infant in order to ultimately take part in on a Battle Royale to determine the next antichrist, and who still had to have not one but two loved ones burnt to death right over his bed in order to keep him "on track."

Or Crowley's soft-touch manipulation of Dean in order to turn him into his lieutenant versus Lucifer's embarrassingly over-orchestrated manipulation of Sam in order to turn him into his vessel.

Plus, there's just something so hapless about Sam! His toast always falls jelly-side-down, you know?

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Plus, there's just something so hapless about Sam! His toast always falls jelly-side-down, you know?

Heh, that is such a great description of Sam!

[Aeryn13]

But having the most shit happen to someone in a work of fiction is really just the sign that it is the main character. It`s not unique to this show. Sam had so much happen to him because the story was pretty much about him for many years. And the whole agency-taken-away thing, sure it`s true, but that`s because he got all those supernatural storyline opportunities. Èven leads in other genre work don`t get half as much.

Frankly, I expect that to happen in fiction, for the lead character(s) to be abused as much as possible basically. It depends on how that is presented and if the character gets a big triumphant moment at the end of it. For me that is what the first five Seasons followed by that Season Finale was for Sam. 

The writers didn`t take half as much care with the entire MOC storyline and the conclusion with Amara. I was only just happy that Dean wasn`t cheated out of the resolution completely even though the potential of those storylines was mostly squandered.    

[companionenvy]

I really disagree that Sam is the main character. I don't think that has been true since very, very early in the show -- probably as soon as the writers realized what a great actor JA was. 

No matter who is getting the "plot," to me, Dean is almost always the emotional focus (this is not a source of bitterness to me, by the way :)). That, to me, is one reason the show has been much more likely to go with extended "Sam isn't Sam" arcs than "Dean isn't Dean" ones.

[JunebugWA]

This is a VERY unpopular opinion, I think :) -- I personally think JP is a better actor than JA. When I watch the show, JP is Sam but I always feel that JA is acting Dean - he is not Dean. 

[SueB]

On 9/24/2016 at 7:55 PM, companionenvy said:

I really disagree that Sam is the main character. I don't think that has been true since very, very early in the show -- probably as soon as the writers realized what a great actor JA was. 

No matter who is getting the "plot," to me, Dean is almost always the emotional focus (this is not a source of bitterness to me, by the way :)). That, to me, is one reason the show has been much more likely to go with extended "Sam isn't Sam" arcs than "Dean isn't Dean" ones.

Honestly, I don't believe in Sam vs Dean comparisons because I think the writers genuinely care about both. BUT, I also think they hand certain "tasks" to Jensen out of trust and different "tasks" to Jared that play to his strengths. And I see the heavy-lifting often going more towards Jensen than Jared.  The last shot before break, the first shot after break.  I think Jensen has Jared's back on balancing the emotional toll of acting.  I think he looks out after Jared in many ways. That there is a "life imitating art" element here with Jensen taking a more protective role sometimes.  Regarding acting, I honestly feel Jared has improved since the early years -- and I've always enjoyed his performances.  But he's blown me away more in recent years than he did early on.  Jensen, OTOH, started out as exceptional and always delivers IMO.

27 minutes ago, JunebugWA said:

This is a VERY unpopular opinion, I think :) -- I personally think JP is a better actor than JA. When I watch the show, JP is Sam but I always feel that JA is acting Dean - he is not Dean. 

While I don't agree with this particular opinion, I also can see times when I think Jensen plays Dean like more of an asshole or more crude than I think he is.  And I can see how this may come across as more of a persona versus genuine character moments.  But I can also see that Jensen thinks Dean has this range.  And I can respect that.  Having unlikable character traits is probably more realistic.  I think Jared shows some of that in Sam as well.  In Sam's case, it's less crude and more 'arrogant'.  Both have 'asshole' down pretty well for their character when the script calls for it.

Bottom line: Both have the ability to make me gasp, to make me cry, to make me laugh.  I see differences but both have got their characters down to an art at this point IMO. 

Edited October 4, 2016 by SueB

[Bessie]

51 minutes ago, JunebugWA said:

This is a VERY unpopular opinion, I think :) -- I personally think JP is a better actor than JA. When I watch the show, JP is Sam but I always feel that JA is acting Dean - he is not Dean. 

I think they both have their strengths and weaknesses, but overall, I find them to be solid at the craft. Not great, but competent. The only actor on the show whose acting negatively impacts how I view the character is Collins.

Often, I have to remind myself that Cas is a gazillion-year old angel and not a person. The writing certainly doesn't help, but much of the problem, for me, is Collins' acting choices. He seems incapable of portraying Cas as a friend to the boys while maintaining his otherworldliness.  His lucifer was laughable, although he improved a bit over time. I haven't enjoyed Castiel's story since Season 6. A lot of that is on the writers, but Collins doesn't help. 

Edited October 4, 2016 by Bessie

[sarthaz]

It bothers me that the boys are always double-crossing those who help them.  The show has established very blurry lines of morality, but if a crossroads demon can keep its word, you'd think Dean could.

[Bessie]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

It bothers me that the boys are always double-crossing those who help them.  The show has established very blurry lines of morality, but if a crossroads demon can keep its word, you'd think Dean could.

Who did Dean betray?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

It bothers me that the boys are always double-crossing those who help them.  The show has established very blurry lines of morality, but if a crossroads demon can keep its word, you'd think Dean could.

I've always presumed that becoming a crossroads demon is a promotion. I think crossroads demons honor deals so they don't get sent back to the rigors of regular Hell with all the suffereing, pain and torment, not because they are any more honorable than Sam and Dean.

I'm curious what would be really considered a double cross when it comes to the boys and their deals.  Is lying to enemies to gain the upper hand in  battles a double cross?  Even if it is a double cross isn't that a valid strategy when battling demons and angels who are more powerful than humans. 

I'm trying to think of a time that Dean betrayed an ally other than Anna which came down to a choice between Anna and Sam, which obviously Dean is going to choose Sam. 

[SueB]

Dean betrayed Crowley.  He lied twice in that one episode. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Dean betrayed Crowley.  He lied twice in that one episode. 

Dean flat out lied as a strategy to get him to meet up and to get the FB back so he could kill Cain. To me that isn't a betrayal. It's a lie and Crowley believed him. Crowley might have felt betrayed but only because he's still a jilted not!boyfriend, IMO.  

But you know thinking more about how that scene was played, it was like Dean almost felt bad for lying to Crowley,  which he would never have felt bad about before he became a demon. Maybe that's because demons think lying is a sin (Lazarus Rising and On the Head of a Pin). That would have been a fun clue that Dean was possibly slipping back to being a demon. 

[Myrelle]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

Dean betrayed Crowley.  He lied twice in that one episode. 

Only if he considered Crowley an equal of any sort-which I've never seen-not even when Dean was demonized. I always thought of Dean as a Knight of Hell, even then, too; and which Crowley could never even aspire to.

[JunebugWA]

My bitterness: I hate the character of Rowena with a thousand suns!! It sucks to know that she is still around. Wonder whose hidden skeletons she knows to be on the show this long. There have been bad guys on the show that I don't mind one bit but Rowena is so OTT that it is always painful to watch her scenes. 

[SueB]

22 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Only if he considered Crowley an equal of any sort-which I've never seen-not even when Dean was demonized. I always thought of Dean as a Knight of Hell, even then, too; and which Crowley could never even aspire to.

I'm pretty sure betrayal is betrayal, independent of how you rationalize whether or not the betrayal was justified or the other person was deserving of such treatment. In this instance he asked Crowley to give him the blade just to kill Cain.  Crowley was, in fact, helping them by protecting the serial killer's son with the Rune of Amarath and providing Dean the blade.  Dean then still went to Crowley for help AFTER that (to get to Lucifer with Sam and to help with the attack in Amara).  He asked for help and betrayed Crowley's trust.  

Another example: Dean betrayed Sam by making him think Amelia was in danger, Dean betrayed Sam by helping an angel trick his way into consent, Dean betrayed Sam by knocking him out en route to confront Metatron.  Dean is not above betrayal.  'I lie, it's what I do.'  

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm pretty sure betrayal is betrayal, independent of how you rationalize whether or not the betrayal was justified or the other person was deserving of such treatment.

To me whether something is an act of betrayal is measured by the nature of the relationship between the parties. IMO, for it be be considered a betrayal there has to be a continual, ongoing established trust & loyalty along with a clear expectation of continued, ongoing loyalty; a vow of allegiance so to speak.

Dean and Crowley were no longer buddies; no longer in fealty to each other; no allegiance to each other if they ever really had one at all. IMO what Dean did  was a deception, a specific lie for a specific purpose rather than a betrayal. Dean and Sam deceive people every day as part of their jobs. Besides, IIRC Crowley only helped out of his own self-interest when he fell for Dean's deception that he was on Cain's list. That's not betrayal in my book.

[Myrelle]

I never said Dean was above betrayal, I just said he didn't betray Crowley because he didn't consider Crowley an equal I should have added where it concerns being honorable, and I should have also added that any betrayal perpetrated on Crowley is better described as payback, in all cases, IMO, because he's not only the King of Hell he's also the King of Betrayals on this show, especially if you consider lying to be the same thing as a betrayal-which I don't. And Dean has always told Crowley that they've never been friends or besties or any such thing, so Crowley "trusting" Dean at any time, for any reason is Crowley's problem. Dean is just good at playing the same game as Crowley. You call it betrayal, I call it street smarts-even what Sam(and you) saw as the betrayals you described all saved Sam's life, so Dean didn't betray the prime directive or his own conscience. So what's a betrayal to Sam is Dean upholding an oath that's practically etched into his bones, at this point; so in that way maybe a betrayal isn't always betrayal. As ever, it always about character and viewer POV on this show.

[MysteryGuest]

Dean betrayed Sam by tricking him into accepting Gadreel, and Sam betrayed Dean by continuing to use the Book of the Damned to remove the Mark...and on and on it goes.  I don't think that either one of them think of those actions as betrayals.  There was anger upon the discovery, but ultimately, they both know that this is the drill for them.  They will always do whatever is required to save the other.

[Aeryn13]

I don`t consider any double-crossing done to Crowley, Rowena or any of the evil-doers on the show to be a betrayal. In fairness, not when those evil do-ers double-cross the protagonists either. That is more like an obvious outcome. It`s actually satisfying when the supposed good guys aren`t doofuses all the time and manage to dupe the evil ones every now and then too. Not gonna cry for them. If they team up again afterwards or ask for well after either side has "betrayed" the other one previously, well, that`s on all of them. 

What Cas did in Season 6, pulling strings with Crowley behind their backs and then outright lying about it when finally asked, that would be a betrayal IMO. They were allies and friends at this point. I get why he wanted to lie his way out of the situation but for me, it was a betrayal. Sam with Ruby and later with Cas/Charlie/Rowena and Dean with Gadreel, yeah, I would consider those betrayals of the respective brother because they lied about their involvements.

Actually, while this show makes a big thing out of secreths and lieths, I don`t think they mine a lot of story from actual betrayals. For example the vampire shows on the CW have at least one big betrayal every other episode. Compared to those, what happenes on SPN is child`s play.

[Aeryn13]

Moving my answer here to be on the safe side:

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Some discussion of the show/TPTB disrespecting the character of Dean Winchester in the Spoilers w/Spec thread.  

For those that feel this way (I am not one), I'm curious to know what you consider "disrespect" of the character.

For me personally, for example the entire episode of Yellow Fever with the "haha, you are dick and that`s why you deserve to die, dick" message. After the character had recently returned from hell no less.

The entire Season 5 Finale. The second half of Season 8. Apparently they found it necessary to get in a clumsy message about how Mary isn`t just around to cook, clean and play nurse in 12.02 so noone gets any ideas but the role is fine for Dean. Yeah, that know they would have been crucified for it with a female character. Same with 5.22, reduce a female character these days to being the wind beneath the big manly hero`s wings. Even men call that out nowadays.

Whenever the writers need a particular dumbboard to explain something, he is the default character for it. His accomplishments are either belittled or ignored later on. They love to do this by having another character, mostly Sam but not always, doing the same thing, just so much bigger and better. Basically, they use Dean as their prop TO prop.

The ignored or half-assed storylines or the character not being considered for storylines, I`d chalk down to disinterest. The other stuff to disrespect. For me it shows in many little things and the occasional big thing here and there.  

And noone can convince me that that assholish "Dean is boring"-remark Carver made at one Comic Con wasn`t what he actually meant. Not meant to say, probably but that is different.

Lately there is even this weird thing where apparently the character is supposed to be old, fat? and unattractive. But this would actually be more an insult to the actor and I`ll have to write this down as some weird penis envy.     

[Demented Daisy]

I'm just going to say I disagree with pretty much everything you consider "disrespect".  I never heard that remark from Carver, so I have no context to base an opinion.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Lately there is even this weird thing where apparently the character is supposed to be old, fat? and unattractive. But this would actually be more an insult to the actor and I`ll have to write this down as some weird penis envy.

This I don't understand.  

[companionenvy]

I think the show is sometimes disrespectful of Dean in that it will present him as temporarily dumb or ignorant for the sake of a cheap joke. There are also cases in which a trait of his  is either exaggerated or forgotten to serve another character or a narrative the show is trying to sell -- although I think this happens just as often to Sam and Cas as well; it is a flaw of the show's writing, not a sign of particular unfairness to Dean. For instance, while Dean under the Mark of Cain obviously went too far in certain cases, until Charlie's death, he honestly didn't seem all that out of control, and the show's constant attempts to act as if he was dangerously off the rails came off more as gaslighting than an accurate assessment of where his character was. At the other extreme, just last week I thought it was silly that Dean was telling Cas to go easy on the sketchy vet who had worked on Sam, while Mary jumped in with "hurt him." The purpose seemed to make Mary look like a badass mama bear, but Dean has never been squeamish about hurting (non-innocent) others when Sam was in danger. Again, though, I think Sam and Cas are often subject to similar treatment.

On the larger issue, I will never agree that Dean is stuck playing second-fiddle to Sam; if anything, it is the reverse. After season 1, it seems clear to me that the showrunners realized that JA was the better actor and Dean the more interesting character (I love Sam and think JP has really grown, but I do think this is still a fair assessment), and began writing him accordingly as the emotional center of the show, while also allowing him to take the lead in defeating the majority of major villains. 

To me, the original 5 series arc is not, primarily, the story of how Sam Winchester escaped his dark destiny and became a hero. It is the story of how Dean Winchester learned to let his brother go and accept that he couldn't save everyone, even (and especially) the person he loved most.

A good question for me in determining who is the primary focus of an arc, is often "which brother has to change, grow, or reverse a previously established position?" IMO, the emotional crux of season 1 -- the only one I think was really Sam-centric -- was the moment in which Sam decides not to kill the YED, because doing so would require killing John and family is more important. That's a huge moment for Sam's character, because up until then Dean has consistently been the one preaching "family first," while Sam has been the one single-mindedly obsessed with killing the YED, not to mention consistently at odds with John. In season 5, the person who changes is Dean. For all that Sam "goes dark" in season 4, really, all that happens is that he is duped by a demon. I don't think there's actually much of a change in character. He's in a bad, self-destructive place and allows a seemingly helpful (and, not incidentally, attractive) demon to lead him down a terrible path by, essentially, lying to him and addicting him to a mind-altering substance. Once he realizes he's been played -- and detoxes from the demon blood -- he is contrite and remorseful, as expected. It is amazing that he is willing to accept a fate worse than death to atone, but that isn't actually all that surprising, as the question of whether or not the Winchesters will sacrifice themselves for the greater good is not and never has been a source of major anxiety for the show: of course they will. The much bigger question is whether or not they will sacrifice each other. That is Dean's struggle in S5, and the fact that he is ultimately able to agree to the plan is more narratively and emotionally significant, to me, than the fact that Sam proposes it, which was never really in doubt.

[Aeryn13]

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To me, the original 5 series arc is not, primarily, the story of how Sam Winchester escaped his dark destiny and became a hero. It is the story of how Dean Winchester learned to let his brother go and accept that he couldn't save everyone, even (and especially) the person he loved most.

That`s actually what I really hated, that Dean`s "role" was learning to step back and be a cheerleader to the actual hero. It`s so passive and unfulfilling to me. But then pure "emo stories" just don`t work for me. Even in dramas I want the character to actually do something interesting. Themselves, that is, not watching other people do it or telling other people`s stories. Good emotional exploration then can come from that.  

I hated that the onus to change and "learn" was apparently on Dean. Sam was the Chosen One with or without it. It didn`t matter what I saw as a culmination of hubris in Season 4, no, he was right all along, Dean had to bend backwards and change his stance. I wanted a redemption for Sam in Season 5 from I saw were his character problems, not the culmination of his superdom. To me the big heroic sacrifice is validation from the narrative, if it`s bad for the character within the story notwithstanding. 

If say the show had ended with Season 11 and the Finale had played out a lot more dynamic (and the Season had spent better care on developing whatever the relationship between Dean and Amara was) with Dean sacrificing himself, if they had established he wouldn`t be blown to bits but his soul would have to suffer horrible torment after destroying Amara, yada yada, I would have thought it was a stellar ending for the character. One of the best endings a fictional character in a show like that canpossibly get. I can always fix the character`s actual situation in my head or have it done via fanfic, that`s what it is for after all.   

[companionenvy]

Dean has gotten plenty of Big Bad kills over the years. Heck, he even killed Azazel, who narratively speaking, seemed almost bound to be Sam's to take out. 

But if you see Swan Song as Dean or the show validating Sam's season 4 choices, I just think our views are so fundamentally different that we're never going to see eye to eye, especially if you also think that a good ending is contingent on the level of suffering the character takes on.

This is a show about two brothers. Sometimes, one of them is going to play a more active role. Sometimes, the other is. Given that S5 is really the only time Sam successfully takes the lead in defeating the Big Bad, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for the idea that Dean is stuck playing "cheerleader." I understand (and, to an extent, share) the disappointment that Dean never gets to be Michael's  vessel, but I don't think that is a way of demeaning Dean. The great irony of S4 and 5 is that while Sam is Lucifer's vessel and Dean is Michael's, contrary to what might be expected, Sam's journey requires him to find the strength to say "yes" to the devil, and Dean's requires him to find the strength to say "no" to an angel. Both are heroic decisions -- which also goes to show that, while the structure of the story means that Sam's sacrifice does wind up being the big climax, it isn't like Dean doesn't do a heck of a lot of actively heroic stuff along the way. He kills Zachariah, he resists Michael, he goes toe-to-toe with Death -- it isn't as if he's back at the motel cleaning Sam's weapons and making his supper.

I also don't think the fact that a character changes implies that he needed redemption or is doing anything as simple as learning the error of his ways. Frankly, in purely practical terms, Sam was dead wrong not to kill Azazel/John in S1. A lot of lives and grief would have been saved if he had. Yet, it is also emotionally significant (and healthy) that Sam is recognizing the depth of his love for his family. Similarly, while I think Dean does need to learn to let go in Swan Song, that doesn't mean that his earlier actions are being demonized; to ultimately recognize that the sacrifice is needed isn't to say that it was wrong not to be willing to make it until it was clear that that was the only way. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I hated that the onus to change and "learn" was apparently on Dean. Sam was the Chosen One with or without it. It didn`t matter what I saw as a culmination of hubris in Season 4, no, he was right all along, Dean had to bend backwards and change his stance. I wanted a redemption for Sam in Season 5 from I saw were his character problems, not the culmination of his superdom. To me the big heroic sacrifice is validation from the narrative, if it`s bad for the character within the story notwithstanding.

But Dean was not the only character who changed during that time. Sam went from criticizing John to agreeing with Dean - previously, because apparently Dean was now conflicted - that John did the best that he could and how he raised them was now apparently correct. Sam was also made to change his stance in that apparently he was in the wrong for going to college or any time he left the family, because apparently that was "running away" and was "wrong every time [he] did it." For me Sam's sacrificing in "Swan Song" was less about the narrative saying Sam was "right all along" - because the narrative has since talked more about how Sam started the apocalypse than how he averted it, in my opinion - and more about Sam accepting that he had been wrong and not running away from what he did, but taking responsibility for fixing it. For me that was the redemption.

What kind of "redemption" would have been appropriate in your opinion? My guess is that it would've been Sam admitting he was completely wrong about everything and then stepping aside to let Dean be the one to save the day. Except that, to me, this would also have been Sam letting Dean clean up Sam's mess. Dean would've been taking responsibility for Sam just like Dean had done much of his life. There is no change there in their dynamic, and they are still the older brother / younger brother who Dean has to "take care of" and sacrifice for. For me, it would've also validated - using your dynamics - Dean making the deal to begin with, because then Dean gets to make that mistake and still save his brother and the world and be the hero doing it. Dean already got to be the hero by killing Azazel and saving Sam from that threat. He already sacrificed for Sam by making the deal to save him to begin with, but there were flaws there, too. And Dean sacrificing again, leaving Sam alive and saving the world, to me, would validate that choice. Even both of them falling in the hole together would have validated that choice of Dean's. Dean had to lose the thing he wanted and made a bad deal for - Sam safe and alive - and Sam had to fix the problems he made by not doing what he promised Dean he would do. The answer, for me, to both of those things was Sam making the sacrifice and Dean making that possible by being there for Sam, but not trying to take the burden for him as he'd always tried to do before.

Season 11 was about Sam accepting the same kind of thing (with the added thing that of course Sam's "mistake" in saving Dean caused a lot more deaths and problems, because that's generally how the show rolls when it comes to Sam, in my opinion.) Sam had to let Dean go to die, because his efforts to try and "fix" Dean caused problems. (Dean's deal = Sam's getting rid of the mark). So Sam had to step aside and let Dean go. In my opinion, there was no suffering for Dean needed. The threat of the Empty for me was enough for Dean to be a hero - which he was. He just didn't have to go through yet more torture - he already went to hell. And how much of a dick would God/Chuck have been anyway if he would've let Dean go to hell again or be tortured by Amara for all eternity after Dean fixed God's problem? The biggest one ever, in my opinion. So for me, no, Dean going through yet more torture was not needed for him to be the hero in season 11. The Empty was a new and different threat, and not just a rehash of Sam/Lucifer and Dean/hell.

I also agree with most of what @companionenvy says above. I agree it's not only about "learning their lesson." It was also about changing their dynamics together and growing as brothers. In my opinion, if anyone has changed the most over the years of the show, it has been Sam.

[Aeryn13]

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What kind of "redemption" would have been appropriate in your opinion? My guess is that it would've been Sam admitting he was completely wrong about everything and then stepping aside to let Dean be the one to save the day. 

Well, redemption from hubris can never be to end up being the "Chosen One" after all, at least not for me. And an acknowledgment OF hubris wouldn`t go amiss either. IMO that never happened with Sam. He had this moment - under the influence, sure, but it was endemic of Season 4 - of going "I`m stronger, smarter, better". And then Season 5 comes along and the message basically is "yup, he was totally right". Sorry, that will never be a worthy redemption storyline to me.

I would have taken an equal save at least. Where Dean had a valid, active role onscreen. Nothing that can be as easily dismissed as it was. Lots of people attribute the valid help to the car or Sam`s toy. Because hey, I can see it. At least the car SEEMED important there. And this car could have ended up there some other way. Or you could really do it without the car even because it was just Sam having memories. Well, those memories were already there. No present presence needed.

They could have just written the character as assessing them. Dean was written into that episode in a kind of "eh" way. I don`t want to tell myself really, really hard that he actually mattered even though I have to really ignore and stretch it with what I was given. I wanted it undisputed.   

Sam`s contribution was such that noone, but absolutely noone, even if they hate it, can ignore it. He got the big hero save. Even when Dean killed Azazel, John`s ghostly participation was active and needed. Heck, even with the Amara thing, they kinda gave enough hero credit to some old lady feeding birds. 

They could, at the very least, have given Dean some special part in it, like build up something where he was the only one to work the rings and open the portal. It is still the far less contribution but it would have been something that made him special and needed. Guess that was all too much to ask.

Nope, on top of things I got a nice little spit in my face with the "you are no longer a part of this story". Well, thanks for nothing because him being supposedly a part in this story was the only thing that kept me watching beyond Season 3, the one thing I actively enjoyed about the show starting with the beginning of Season 4 and the beginning of a Dean storyline intrigue. And here comes the conclusion and the answer is: haha, it was just a red herring and we`ll throw it away like garbage now, feel like you wasted the last two years watching yet? Yup, I did.     

[Diane]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, redemption from hubris can never be to end up being the "Chosen One" after all, at least not for me. And an acknowledgment OF hubris wouldn`t go amiss either. IMO that never happened with Sam. He had this moment - under the influence, sure, but it was endemic of Season 4 - of going "I`m stronger, smarter, better". And then Season 5 comes along and the message basically is "yup, he was totally right". Sorry, that will never be a worthy redemption storyline to me.

I would have taken an equal save at least. Where Dean had a valid, active role onscreen. Nothing that can be as easily dismissed as it was. Lots of people attribute the valid help to the car or Sam`s toy. Because hey, I can see it. At least the car SEEMED important there. And this car could have ended up there some other way. Or you could really do it without the car even because it was just Sam having memories. Well, those memories were already there. No present presence needed.

They could have just written the character as assessing them. Dean was written into that episode in a kind of "eh" way. I don`t want to tell myself really, really hard that he actually mattered even though I have to really ignore and stretch it with what I was given. I wanted it undisputed.   

Sam`s contribution was such that noone, but absolutely noone, even if they hate it, can ignore it. He got the big hero save. Even when Dean killed Azazel, John`s ghostly participation was active and needed. Heck, even with the Amara thing, they kinda gave enough hero credit to some old lady feeding birds. 

They could, at the very least, have given Dean some special part in it, like build up something where he was the only one to work the rings and open the portal. It is still the far less contribution but it would have been something that made him special and needed. Guess that was all too much to ask.

Nope, on top of things I got a nice little spit in my face with the "you are no longer a part of this story". Well, thanks for nothing because him being supposedly a part in this story was the only thing that kept me watching beyond Season 3, the one thing I actively enjoyed about the show starting with the beginning of Season 4 and the beginning of a Dean storyline intrigue. And here comes the conclusion and the answer is: haha, it was just a red herring and we`ll throw it away like garbage now, feel like you wasted the last two years watching yet? Yup, I did.     

I don't understand why people wanted Dean to be Michael's meat suit, it would have been horrible for Dean. I love the characters of Dean and Sam and don't want either of them to suffer.  They both suffered horribly in hell.  I didn't want (and maybe it's an UO) Dean to go back to hell to be tortured again.  He gave Sam the strength to say yes to Lucifer.  He would not have been able to over come him to jump into the cage without Dean.  So again maybe the UO) but I consider it a joint save. YMMV of course.

[Aeryn13]

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I don't understand why people wanted Dean to be Michael's meat suit, it would have been horrible for Dean.

That`s the thing, horrible stuff needs to happen to fictional characters or else there is no story to tell, at least not one that won`t bore you to tears. Even sidekicks have stuff happening to them occassionally but the heroes do definitely. 

The Mark of Cain was horrible for Dean, I knew that from the second he took it on and yet that episode made me do metaphorical backflips with joy. A Dean-centric supernatural storyline with him being special? Hooray.

In comparism during the second half of Season 8 the character got housework in the bunker and nursing Sam, comparatively 100 % less horrible than the MOC and I wanted to drip bleach into my eyes in response.

I would have loved to see Dean as Michael and especially Jensen playing other for a change. Well, now that they`ve turned Michael into a complete wimp, I don`t want it anymore either. But back then it could have been freakishly cool. In the end, I`m selfish, I want good things to happen for me, not necessarily the characters.  

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He gave Sam the strength to say yes to Lucifer.  He would not have been able to over come him to jump into the cage without Dean.  

You can interpret the episode that way but there is an equal case to interpret it another way. That was my point, I wanted it to be clear-cut that it WAS a joint effort. Try interpreting Sam jumping into the hole with Lucifer away, it doesn`t work, it was spelled out onscreen. Dean was there but there was never a scene or line of dialogue from a credible source that make it explicitely clear, beyond interpretation, that without him Sam would have failed.  

Edited October 26, 2016 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

2 hours ago, Diane said:

I don't understand why people wanted Dean to be Michael's meat suit, it would have been horrible for Dean. I love the characters of Dean and Sam and don't want either of them to suffer.  They both suffered horribly in hell.  I didn't want (and maybe it's an UO) Dean to go back to hell to be tortured again.  He gave Sam the strength to say yes to Lucifer.  He would not have been able to over come him to jump into the cage without Dean.  So again maybe the UO) but I consider it a joint save. YMMV of course.

I'm with you, Diane, I think Dean played a big part in what happened at the end of season 5.  I honestly can't be bothered keeping track of who killed whom, who got the biggest kill, etc.  And I've never gotten the whole Michael thing, but that's just me.  They've both traveled this road together and have each contributed, in good ways and bad, to get them where they are today.  

As a Dean fan, I honestly think he is the heart and soul of the show.  But I know there are Sam fans who feel the same way about him.  That's the problem with having a favorite...your perception can be a bit skewed sometimes.  I think both brothers get their share of playing the hero.  I also think the writers throw both characters under the bus if it fits their storyline.  They've made Dean look like an idiot on numerous occasions, and they've turned Sam into a selfish dick at times, and I've pretty much hated it each and every time it's happened.  But I'm sure they'll do it again, if it suits them.

[Diane]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm with you, Diane, I think Dean played a big part in what happened at the end of season 5.  I honestly can't be bothered keeping track of who killed whom, who got the biggest kill, etc.  And I've never gotten the whole Michael thing, but that's just me.  They've both traveled this road together and have each contributed, in good ways and bad, to get them where they are today.  

As a Dean fan, I honestly think he is the heart and soul of the show.  But I know there are Sam fans who feel the same way about him.  That's the problem with having a favorite...your perception can be a bit skewed sometimes.  I think both brothers get their share of playing the hero.  I also think the writers throw both characters under the bus if it fits their storyline.  They've made Dean look like an idiot on numerous occasions, and they've turned Sam into a selfish dick at times, and I've pretty much hated it each and every time it's happened.  But I'm sure they'll do it again, if it suits them.

I agree with you too, I hate it when they dumb them down or make Same the selfish one. I also agree as a Dean fan that he is the heart and soul of the show, but I also love Sam and the brothers relationship.

[Aeryn13]

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As a Dean fan, I honestly think he is the heart and soul of the show.  But I know there are Sam fans who feel the same way about him. 

Heh, Dean is unequivocally my favourite but any character is welcome to that title as far as I`m concerned because I flinch in sympathy when in a show a character struggles with their purpose among a group and in the end get pointed out to them how they are the heart and soul of it all. I can only think that if I was that fictional character, I would probably throw myself of a cliff in response. Also, those are usually the characters that, if a show absolutely needed to let one go, I would volunteer as tribute. Not that I necessarily dislike them but it`s like TV show triage.  

I know that`s not how you meant it but for me I`m perfectly content not laying claim to it.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Or you could really do it without the car even because it was just Sam having memories. Well, those memories were already there. No present presence needed.

For me that wasn't Sam having memories. Sam wasn't in control. That was Lucifer seeing Sam's memories and realizing that Dean would always be there for Sam - and yup here Dean was, even getting beat to death to be with Sam - while his brother, Michael, shrugged his shoulders and said "nope, I'm going to kill you, because Dad said so." Without Dean there, Lucifer wouldn't have given a crap if Sam had those memories, because Sam's brother would have abandoned him just like Michael abandoned him (Lucifer) and just like Lucifer had taunted Sam with - "only I understand you/care about you/etc." Only then, when that blow to his ego was realized by Lucifer, did the expression change and Sam take over. Watching the focus on Sam's face, I can see the moment it happens - when Lucifer realizes he'll never have what Sam and Dean have - and it all changes. It's not a mighty struggle for power where Sam wins that comes over (then) Lucifer's face, it's an almost giving up by Lucifer, that no matter what he does, he'll never get what he wants - validation from Michael.

Maybe just my opinion, but for me that parallel and difference was there. I didn't need it spelled out in dialogue that that is what happened. Now maybe if I saw an epic struggle between Lucifer and Sam played out over Lucifer/Sam's face where Lucifer fought mightily but Sam took over, then yes, I'd entirely agree with you, but that's not what I saw happen. I saw what I described. Lucifer realized he'd already lost what he wanted most, because when he asked Michael to choose him over what God wanted, Michael chose "Dad," and even worse... Sam, his lowly vessel, was chosen by Dean over his Dad's (John's) words/wishes to kill Sam if he couldn't be saved... and Sam wasn't since he raised Lucifer. For Sam, Dean defied Dad. For Lucifer, Michael wouldn't do the same. The blow to Lucifer's ego was too great and he lost control. But in my opinion, Dean was absolutely necessary for any of that to happen. Without Dean, Lucifer would've been right that he, Lucifer, was Sam's "real family" (Lucifer called Dean and John Sam's "foster family, at best"), the one who really cared about him.

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Nope, on top of things I got a nice little spit in my face with the "you are no longer a part of this story".

Of course Michael is going to say that. He was an egotistical jerk and Dean "defied" him. Michael is not a reliable narrator. He was supposedly championing humanity by defeating Lucifer, but he went around manipulating everything and killing innocent people who just happened to be in the wrong place when he made a "phone call" without a thought. If it had been something Chuck had said, well then okay, but Michael? Nope, I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth. In fact Chuck summed it all up at the end just the opposite "Up against good, evil, angels, devils, destiny, and God himself, they made their own choice. They chose family (unlike Michael with Lucifer, where Michael chose destiny)... And well, isn't that kinda the whole point?" In my opinion, yup it kinda was.

[Aeryn13]

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For me that wasn't Sam having memories. Sam wasn't in control. That was Lucifer seeing Sam's memories and realizing that Dean would always be there for Sam 

Again, that is your interpretation. In my eyes the show wanted to establish how Sam overpowered Lucifer by all awesomeness. Lucifer even kinda alluded to it in that one episode last Season. And yup, despite Lucifer kinda wanting to convince Sam to say yes again, I took that statement at face value.

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I didn't need it spelled out in dialogue that that is what happened.

I did, 100 %, what they did wasn`t good enough. Half the reviews after that episode aired thought Dean`s part was pretty negliable. And as much as I hated it, I couldn`t blame a single one of them. I wanted more too. His "contribution" is written and played out onscreen in such a way that it is pretty easy to ignore.

 

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Of course Michael is going to say that. He was an egotistical jerk and Dean "defied" him. Michael is not a reliable narrator.

But he actually is. I mean, he says the truth. In a way he is Kripke`s mouthpiece in that scene. Dean is not a part of that story anymore, literally. That goes for the story happening in the show and the meta-statement on how he is now useless to the story. They actually made that pretty clear to me. If the episode convinced me of one thing, it was that. Just like you felt Dean was important, I felt he was thrown aside in a pretty purposeful statement and middle finger.

And Chuck`s spiel in the end was ridiculous, nope they didn`t "choose family". Sam chose to go save the world and Dean chose... well, since I don`t think he really mattered, his choices seem trivial. 

[companionenvy]

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But he actually is. I mean, he says the truth. In a way he is Kripke`s mouthpiece in that scene. Dean is not a part of that story anymore, literally. 

Saying "actually" and "literally" doesn't make it so, and I see no justification for reading Michael, one of the villains of the scene, as Kripke's mouthpiece, especially in an episode that includes a much more direct avatar of Kripke in the form of Chuck, who is, as of s5 canon, responsible for writing a book series called "Supernatural," is a prophet of the Lord, and possibly God himself. 

Michael's mistake is that he sees Dean as irrelevant. But, whether you find Dean's role satisfactory or not, Dean's part in the story is not over - he would be "literally" out of the story if he exited stage left and didn't show up again until after Sam's big moment. In fact, that is not remotely what happens. Let's go to the script. Here's what happens after Michael says Dean isn't a part of the story:

DEAN: Sammy? Are you in there? 

LUCIFER/SAM: Oh, he's in here, all right. [He punches DEAN again.] And he's gonna feel the snap of your bones. [Another punch. DEAN falls to the ground.] Every single one. [He hauls DEAN to his feet.] We're gonna take our time. 

LUCIFER/SAM punches DEAN a further ten times. DEAN, his face now very swollen and bleeding, puts out a hand to LUCIFER/SAM's jacket. 

DEAN: Sam, it's okay. It's okay. I'm here. I'm here. I'm not gonna leave you. [LUCIFER/SAM punches him twice more.] I'm not gonna leave you. 

LUCIFER/SAM draws back his fist for another punch. 

Sunlight glints off the roof of the IMPALA, catching LUCIFER/SAM's eye. LUCIFER/SAM's reflection is visible in the IMPALA's window; through the window LUCIFER/SAM can see the little green army man stuck in the ashtray. 

From 5.22 Swan Song, young SAM stuffs the army man in the IMPALA's ashtray.

From 5.22 Swan Song, young DEAN puts Legos in the IMPALA's vent.

From 5.22 Swan Song, young SAM and young DEAN carve their initials in the IMPALA.

From 5.22 Swan Song, young SAM plays with an army man, then stuffs it in the ashtray.

From 5.22 Swan Song, young DEAN puts Legos in the IMPALA's vent.

From 5.22 Swan Song, young SAM and young DEAN carve their initials in the IMPALA.

From 1.01 Pilot, SAM goes through DEAN's cassette collection while DEAN fills the IMPALA's tank. SAM holds up the tape labeled "MOTORHEAD" to show DEAN in the driver's seat. DEAN takes the tape labeled "METALLICA" from SAM.

From 1.02 Wendigo, SAM tells DEAN that SAM's driving.

From 1.01 Pilot, DEAN grins at SAM....

 

And so on, until Sam reasserts control.

 

To me, it couldn't be much clearer that Dean, who let's recall is here allowing Lucifer to give him a potentially fatal beating, triggers these memories of the boys' history, allowing Sam to take over for long enough to throw Lucifer into the pit. 

Again, you may not think Dean's role is sufficient. But he is still very much a part of the story right up to the bitter end.

[mertensia]

Of course Dean chose family. He chose-despite being told "stay away" by everyone but the Osmonds- to go to Stull. He chose to stay in hopes that some part of  Sam would see Dean and understand that Dean was there for him. Hell, he chose to fulfill Sam's dying wish and go be with Lisa and Ben.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

In my eyes the show wanted to establish how Sam overpowered Lucifer by all awesomeness.

My interpretation of the scene when Sam said "yes" was to show that this wasn't the case. When Sam was supposedly at his strongest after drinking all of that demon blood - shown by Sam killing Lucifer's henchdemons in a second with only a thought - he was also at his most overconfident, going ahead with saying "yes" even though Lucifer knew the plan. And the result of that wasn't Sam overpowering Lucifer all on his own. It was Sam getting crushed like a bug. Sam didn't make the right choice there, not doing what he said he would do: which was go along with Dean as a united front. In his blood induced overconfidence, Sam didn't. He chose to say yes anyway even though Dean objected, and instead of beating Lucifer, Sam was beaten. It was only when Dean chose to be a united front with Sam and support him no matter what and even though the last thing Dean wanted to do was lose Sam, that the result was Lucifer being defeated. Dean had to be the strong one for Sam when Sam couldn't be strong and caved to the effect of his addiction. Dean showed Sam they could be strong no matter what. (Kinda like Sam believing Dean would make the right choice in "Point of No Return.")

Yeah, it's kinda cheesy as all get out, but that's what I saw. And that's what Chuck told me I saw, so I tend to believe Chuck over Michael. And I ended up loving the cheesiness. And in the end, I guess I'm also okay with that.

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

Of course Dean chose family. He chose-despite being told "stay away" by everyone but the Osmonds- to go to Stull. He chose to stay in hopes that some part of  Sam would see Dean and understand that Dean was there for him. Hell, he chose to fulfill Sam's dying wish and go be with Lisa and Ben.

I wanted to like this a bunch of times.

[MysteryGuest]

Swan Song is not an episode I go to very often because frankly, I find it just too sad.  But when I saw it the first time, I thought it was extremely effective and it absolutely elicited the emotional reaction out of me that TPTB were hoping for.  I was a wreck.  I never once felt cheated that Dean didn't get to be Michael's vessel.  I didn't want him to say yes to Michael anymore than I wanted Sam to say yes to Lucifer.  I was team Free Will, all the way!  But ultimately, I understood that a sacrifice was going to be needed in order to save the world, and Sam needed to be able to atone for some of his behavior.  And Dean being there with him every step of the way was exactly the ending I wanted.  If it had been the series ending episode, I'd have walked away satisfied.  I'm very glad it wasn't the end, but I wouldn't have been disappointed in how it turned out.

Edited October 27, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[Boopsahoy]

13 hours ago, companionenvy said:

, you may not think Dean's role is sufficient. But he is still very much a part of the story right up to the bitter end

I agree. Without Dean Sam wouldn't have been able to take control.

[ILoveReading]

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Without Dean Sam wouldn't have been able to take control.

 

If Dean was so important than why was an avatar of Dean needed when Dean was right there?  Why was a toy solider we had never seen of or heard before shown to have more influence over Sam than Dean's physical presence promising to never leave Sam.   IMO, this episode not only showed how expendable Dean was but a plastic toy is more effective.  Lucifer was going or the killing blow when the sunlight hit the car and Sam saw Sam's toy (it wasn't even Dean's toy) and seeing the toy is what triggered Sam's memories. 

If we were meant to for it to be Dean promising to never leave Sam that allowed Sam to overcome Lucifer there was no need for the car/toy combo.  It made Dean (physically) redundant and way to easy to dimiss Dean's contribution 

Cas and Bobby showed up at the cemetery and sacrificed themselves for Sam too, so its not like even Dean got to do that alone.

Based on the exact way the scene was written, if Cas had enough mojo to zap Dean to the cemetery and he didn't bring the impala, Dean would be dead and the apoclypse would have happened.  The toy solider was the key there. 

Personally, I don't find emo all that exciting to watch over the long term.  Give me an actual storyline where my fave gets to over come his dark destiny over letting go anyday.    Even Jensen described the Mark of Cain as a rare Dean centric storyline.  Learning to let go can be done completely off screen, and also giving the nature of the show its not an actual lesson that can stick, unless Jared decided not to renew his contract.  Once Sam was in the cage Dean immediately started looking for a way to bust him out, so not only was Dean's (physical) role completely redundant, but he didn't even learn what he was apparently supposed to.  I will never buy Kripke's BS that Dean needed to learn to love Sam more.   He sold his soul for Sam.  That's not exactly a way to ensure he'll be with Sam.

I've always felt that Dean's real issue is that he can't live with feeling like he failed to protect Sam, more than he can't live without him.  We saw that when Sam was at college.  Dean only went to him when their dad disappeared.  So we see Dean can let go. 

[Myrelle]

All I wanted out of that 2 season long red herring Dean/Michael storyline was to see one scene of Jensen portraying Michael. It could have happened in any way and at any time and I would have been satisfied, but the showrunner and writers weren't interested enough in that storyline to give us even that, not when they had Lucifer/Sam to think about. This is probably the most disappointing thing that ever happened during the entire run of this show within the segment of the Dean fandom that doesn't/didn't consider themselves bi-bros also. This is a bi-bro site, so i'd never expect understanding of that here, but within that segment of the fandom, Swan Song failed miserably on so many levels-writing-wise-according to Kripke Dean had to learn/love/appreciate Sam more. Please. What about the reverse of that?  And also according to Kripke Dean would have never gone to the cemetery if these events had happened in the first season of the show which I also call BS on. All on would have to do is remember how protective of Sam Dean was even back then(all thanks to Jensen, if Kripke really believed those words, but that's something even Kripke didn't have a firm enough grasp of until after he'd left the show, IMO). The way he hugged Sam at the end of Home? Please. Again.

Swan Song failed Dean, Jensen, and the fandoms of both the actor and the character immensely, IMO. Again not including fans who consider themselves Deanfans  and Bi-bros. This disagreement on Swan Song within the fandom has been on-going on since that episode first aired. The reason that the dislike was so strong back then is because there were so many more Deanfans who didn't care as much about the bond. That has changed immensely, IMO too; and with good reason as the bait and switch writing continued for Dean and JA all the way up to the S11 finale-which I also feel wasn't written as dramatically for Dean as the S5 finale was written for Sam, but hey, at least Dean(and Jensen) was allowed to keep his role at the center of the myth-arc this time AND Dean was named by God to be the firewall between darkness and the light along the way to that. THAT was probably the most satisfying moment in the entire run of this show for Deanfans such as myself who are still here and were still hoping for something like this for the character. I still think they owe JA that Michael role, though, and he can be brought back to put Lucifer back in the cage and I STILL think Jense woulsd rock that role like nothing else. I just will never understand the seemingly adamant refusal on the parts of every showrunner on this show to give this to that segment of the Dean fandom when they bend over backwards for pretty much every other segment out there. It makes for some pretty bitter feelings. Bitter enough that many have left, but that would never register on this board.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

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Dean's part in the story is not over - he would be "literally" out of the story if he exited stage left and didn't show up again until after Sam's big moment. 

I`m not saying he wasn`t technically onscreen, just that for all the good it did, he might as well have not been. I can easily rewrite the entire episode without Dean in it at all, have Bobby drive the car to the cemetery in the first place, Sam still sees his toy, takes control and nothing about the story or even the message or anything changes. The episode remains largely as it is, despite the re-cast. I don`t think even the response to the episode would have changed all that much.   

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Michael's mistake is that he sees Dean as irrelevant.

It`s not like Dean managed to do anything to (or for) him so I`d have to agree with his assessment. Just because it bugs me doesn`t mean I don`t think he spoke the truth. I also don`t see how it was a mistake. His mistake would have been to show up to the big epic apocalypse showdown in an inferior vessel. At least Lucifer wouldn`t do that, he cared enough for Sam`s storyline to wait. 

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He chose-despite being told "stay away" by everyone but the Osmonds- to go to Stull. He chose to stay in hopes that some part of  Sam would see Dean and understand that Dean was there for him.

I guess I was supposed to find that heartwarming or something but I just found it pretty pathetic. I`d like to think he went in the slim hope of making a difference in the apocalypse battle somehow. Even if he didn`t, that motivation sits far better with me.   

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This disagreement on Swan Song within the fandom has been on-going on since that episode first aired. 

My sense memory of the ep is actually physical nausea. Which tells you something about my silly overinvestment but even when the name is mentioned, I can`t help but associating nausea with it. That episode last year where they did a tour with Lucifer and had actual flashbacks of 5.22, I had to look away because hell no. There is just no chance in hell I can ever feel even one good thing about this mess of an ep.  

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 AND Dean was named by God to be the firewall between darkness and the light along the way to that. THAT was probably the most satisfying moment in the entire run of this show for Deanfans such as myself

After the Season 11 Finale, I breathed a sigh of relief that the character was allowed to play out his role somewhat. I mean, it`s still a lot less than it could and should have been but if I didn`t settle for it, I`d have nothing to fall back on. So, tiny hooray?

Edited October 27, 2016 by Aeryn13

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I cannot for the life of me understand why any 'hard core Dean fan' would want Dean to become Michael's vessel.  I mean, for the actor it makes sense, (because you want to see what the actor would do it) but not for the character.  Dean would feel immeasurably violated.  He would hate it.  I don't want that for him.  I don't have the problems with many of the episodes that some on here obviously have, but seems to me if one really wanted a big, huge Dean win (cause he's never had one before /snark) and have him play a significant role in putting Lucifer back in the cage in S12*, then - for the CHARACTER - wouldn't it be better if Dean did it without having to become Michael's meatsuit?  Oh, and then throw in a 'Dean also gets Michael out of the cage' and Boom!  Two BDH moments for Dean in one.  And then, Michael would have to be grateful to Dean (oh, wouldn't that just burn?) for saving him and maybe even acknowledge that Dean was right to turn him down back in the day.  

*tbh - Sam should have more of role of helping to put Lucifer back in the cage than Dean, since it was pretty much Sam's fault that he got out.  (Even though it's really Cas' fault since he said yes.  But still, more Sam's fault than Dean's.)  Now, before you 'hardcore Dean fans' stomp all over me for that, think for a moment if the situation were reversed and Sam got to fix something that was pretty much Dean's mistake and how you'd be up in arms about that!

Edited October 27, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
strange way to define a fan, imo

[Diane]

11 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I cannot for the life of me understand why any 'hard core Dean fan' would want Dean to become Michael's vessel.  I mean, for the actor it makes sense, (because you want to see what the actor would do it) but not for the character.  Dean would feel immeasurably violated.  He would hate it.  I don't want that for him.  I don't have the problems with many of the episodes that some on here obviously have, but seems to me if one really wanted a big, huge Dean win (cause he's never had one before /snark) and have him play a significant role in putting Lucifer back in the cage in S12*, then - for the CHARACTER - wouldn't it be better if Dean did it without having to become Michael's meatsuit?  Oh, and then throw in a 'Dean also gets Michael out of the cage' and Boom!  Two BDH moments for Dean in one.  And then, Michael would have to be grateful to Dean (oh, wouldn't that just burn?) for saving him and maybe even acknowledge that Dean was right to turn him down back in the day.  

*tbh - Sam should have more of role of helping to put Lucifer back in the cage than Dean, since it was pretty much Sam's fault that he got out.  (Even though it's really Cas' fault since he said yes.  But still, more Sam's fault than Dean's.)  Now, before you 'hardcore Dean fans' stomp all over me for that, think for a moment if the situation were reversed and Sam got to fix something that was pretty much Dean's mistake and how you'd be up in arms about that!

This is what I have said, it would be horrific for Dean to be Michael's vessel.  I am sure Jensen could act the hell out of it, but I don't want that for my favorite character.  I do not want him to have to live through that, he has been through enough.

[Aeryn13]

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I cannot for the life of me understand why any 'hard core Dean fan' would want Dean to become Michael's vessel.  I mean, for the actor it makes sense, (because you want to see what the actor would do it) but not for the character.  Dean would feel immeasurably violated.  He would hate it. 

And I wouldn`t care one iota if it was a good interesting genre-story for the character. Why is that such an outrageous wish? Wanting characters to have actual plotlines centered on that character seems pretty normal to me. And in a show like that to have these plots be action-oriented and genre in nature also seems normal. I specifically watch such shows to have more than just emo and mundane, everyday stuff. If you can`t even get a character in a supernatural show get supernatural plotlines and powers, then where?

I see wishes for Sam to have his demon blood powers or have the boyking stuff brought back or have Lucifer be back to focusing on Sam being his vessel all the time. Now, I don`t want these plots to come back but I understand the wish. Or when Sam didn`t have a supernatural storyline of his own, I heard so many things on how that is boring and he can`t just be "Dean`s brother". Welcome to my world for years. I didn`t like it either yet I was always told that for Dean, that was okay. 

    

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Now, before you 'hardcore Dean fans' stomp all over me for that, think for a moment if the situation were reversed and Sam got to fix something that was pretty much Dean's mistake and how you'd be up in arms about that!

If they were treated equally story-wise so far, maybe, but I happen to think the score is still quite imbalanced right now. So, nope, I take any and all Dean-story, anyway I can get it.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Aeryn13

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 minutes ago, Diane said:

This is what I have said, it would be horrific for Dean to be Michael's vessel.  I am sure Jensen could act the hell out of it, but I don't want that for my favorite character.  I do not want him to have to live through that, he has been through enough.

Oh, I didn't see your comment earlier!  I whole-heartedly concur.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why is that such an outrageous wish?

I just don't understand why someone claims to really like a character and wants to see them suffer horribly.  I guess my UO on this thread is: that's fucked up.  Talk about emo!

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Wanting characters to have actual plotlines centered on that character seems pretty normal to me.

Oh, I'll agree with that.  Nothing wrong there.  But actual plotlines centered around a character do not necessitate them being violated in order for them to be the BDH you want.  

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If you can`t even get a character in a supernatural show get supernatural plotlines and powers, then where?

Eh - one of the best things about the show, imo, is that the brothers do not have supernatural powers..  FWIW - I hated the demon blood storyline for Sam.  Didn't like the extra powers it gave him.  I'd much rather see the boys being smart and outwitting the stupid monsters than becoming monsters themselves.

13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I see wishes for Sam to have his demon blood powers or have the boyking stuff brought back or have Lucifer be back to focusing on Sam being his vessel all the time.

Not from me you won't.  And tbh, I don't recall seeing those wishes on this board from the 'hardcore Sam fans' either.  Of course, I could be wrong about that, because obviously I don't remember every line on here I've ever read...  But I don't want those plot lines back and I don't understand the wish to to have those plot lines back (if indeed those wishes for Sam exist).   Mostly what I've read on episode threads when Lucifer came back in S11 was the wish that the Show hadn't gone there.  Maybe you're confusing forums?

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If they were treated equally story-wise so far, maybe, but I happen to think the score is still quite imbalanced right now. So, nope, I take any and all Dean-story, anyway I can get it.

That may be your perception - because you obviously are a Dean fan and not a Sam fan.  So every time Sam has a story line - any little story line - to you that's going to be like a slap across your face because it's taking screen time away from Dean.  However, the statistics compiled by Demented Daisy don't back you up.  Unless you have an issue with her data analysis also.  ::shrugs::

[Diane]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I just don't understand why someone claims to really like a character and wants to see them suffer horribly.  I guess my UO on this thread is: that's fucked up.  Talk about emo!

Oh, I'll agree with that.  Nothing wrong there.  But actual plotlines centered around a character do not necessitate them being violated in order for them to be the BDH you want.  

Eh - one of the best things about the show, imo, is that the brothers do not have supernatural powers..  FWIW - I hated the demon blood storyline for Sam.  Didn't like the extra powers it gave him.  I'd much rather see the boys being smart and outwitting the stupid monsters than becoming monsters themselves.

Not from me you won't.  And tbh, I don't recall seeing those wishes on this board from the 'hardcore Sam fans' either.  Of course, I could be wrong about that, because obviously I don't remember every line on here I've ever read...  But I don't want those plot lines back and I don't understand the wish to to have those plot lines back (if indeed those wishes for Sam exist).   Mostly what I've read on episode threads when Lucifer came back in S11 was the wish that the Show hadn't gone there.  Maybe you're confusing forums?

That may be your perception - because you obviously are a Dean fan and not a Sam fan.  So every time Sam has a story line - any little story line - to you that's going to be like a slap across your face because it's taking screen time away from Dean.  However, the statistics compiled by Demented Daisy don't back you up.  Unless you have an issue with her data analysis also.  ::shrugs::

You have said what I feel much more eloquently than I could ever have done myself.  I concur.

[ahrtee]

I didn’t really have as hard a time with Swan Song as so many of the other Dean girls did—at least, not for the same reasons.  Once Sam agreed to wear Lucifer, to have Dean as Michael would ensure the big battle/end of the world, and the only real way to avoid it would be what I think was Kripke’s original plan:  have Lucifer/Sam and Michael/Dean jump into the pit together, as the end of the show. 

OTOH, if only one of them was to become a vessel, I think Michael/Dean would have been the better (though less dramatic) choice, if it hadn’t been for Sam’s “redemption arc” .  If we were talking pure logic,  wouldn’t it make more sense to think that Dean could control (or reason with) the “good” angel (at least enough to hold off the Apocalypse) rather than thinking that Sam could beat the devil?  And even if he couldn’t…Michael/Dean fighting Lucifer/Nick would be a lot surer/easier win than if both angels were in equally strong vessels.  But that wouldn’t give the brother-against-brother theme they were going for.

My bitterness is more at the *way* they sidelined Dean:  not at being replaced, but the fact that everyone *blamed* him for wanting to say yes, while they supported and praised Sam.  (Granted, they had a plan to recage Lucifer, but the fact is still that they trusted Sam to overcome the devil but told Dean that saying yes was the worst possible thing he could do.) 

I was particularly angry at Cas, while he was pounding the crap out of Dean, blaming him for the fact that he’d rebelled against heaven and lost everything.  You’d think with all those years of watching Earth that he’d have a better perspective on wars, wouldn’t you?  If neither side surrenders, wars would go on forever with horrendous losses.  Just because you’re on the losing side doesn’t mean you should blame the general, especially when you chose to fight and what side to pick.  Admitting when you’re beaten can be a sign of strength, to save lives, not necessarily weakness. 

But I see no point (or benefit) in having Dean become Michael now (especially since they’ve made such a point of the fact that Michael is pretty much catatonic and useless.)  It might work if he were the only one capable of caging Lucifer again, but IMO it would be much more effective if (as RulerofallIsurvey said above) it were the *human* Sam and Dean to do that, rather than another angelus-ex-machina save.  

While I'd love to see a Dean-centric storyline that can come to a satisfying end (preferably with a BDH moment), I'd be happy with wins that are good for both, not at the expense of each other.