Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

So why is Ladygofuckherself bitching at Sam?

I formally approve of LadyGoFuckHerself (tm @trxr4kids) as the 'official' nickname. At least I'm using it henceforth LOL

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Could you hear me howling when Chuck was suspended in the air last week? Yeah, the special effects have really gotten goofy lately!

And you know the worst part? CGI is hellaexpensive. I mean it's more expensive than practical effects. That said Rob was actually doing wire work for that episode. The problem IMO is that the harness they use makes their legs sprawl out awkwardly and they don't seem to be able to move properly, like with Abaddon and her death scene and with Dean pinned up against the wall in that same scene.

But yeah I'm not a big fan of some of the effects lately. The souls flitting around is fine, and I liked how they did the Mark Pellegrino Lucifer face coming out of Misha's face. That was cool.

[trxr4kids]

20 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Could you hear me howling when Chuck was suspended in the air last week? Yeah, the special effects have really gotten goofy lately!

I know it was so ridiculous. When the coven's eyes lit up all I could hear was Ron Resnick saying "he had laser eyes ".

Edited May 27, 2016 by trxr4kids
here and hear are not the same, it's actually a pet peeve of mine and yet

[sarthaz]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I formally approve of LadyGoFuckHerself (tm @trxr4kids) as the 'official' nickname. At least I'm using it henceforth LOL

Aww .. I was hoping we'd go with Lady McWhoFuckingCares from the other thread. :)

[Pete Martell]

I don't really mind most of the effects, but I thought the shot of Cas sitting in the bar as the sun returned looked like something from 1975. 

Not that this was effects, I guess, but I also thought the car scene with Dean and Cas looked weird as hell.

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

I don't really mind most of the effects, but I thought the shot of Cas sitting in the bar as the sun returned looked like something from 1975. 

Not that this was effects, I guess, but I also thought the car scene with Dean and Cas looked weird as hell.

So did I. I know they employed some of the tricks they learned from Baby, but it just didn't feel like it fit visually into the style of this episode. That's kinda the problem with the effects though too--and I'm taking visual, special, CGI, all of it--they're too...I don't know...flashy, loud...just somehow they don't settle into the episodes like they used to. It's not like they haven't always had low-budget effects, it's just I don't think I should notice them. They used to do a lot more practical effects, which, IMO, helped keep the show more grounded. I kinda feel like they're trying to show off lately. 

Edited May 28, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

I think the camera angles in the car scene just screamed "look how experimental and edgy I am" from the director. Instead of enhancing the scene, it just took the focus away from its content. The dialogue was supposed to be some sweet recognition of Castiel, not a psychedelic nightmare scenario. So, use camera angles accordingly. 

And whoever did the musical cues for the Finale also partook in some bad shrooms. 

On the other hand, an effect I really did like was Amara and Chuck`s physical forms dissolving into a black cloud and white light respectively and mingling on their way up. Yes, it was cheesy but their whole resolution was cheesy with "family trumps all" and the goofy smiles in the end. So that effect flowed with the vibe of the scene. It looked pretty and the message was kinda heartwarming.    

[MysteryGuest]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the camera angles in the car scene just screamed "look how experimental and edgy I am" from the director. Instead of enhancing the scene, it just took the focus away from its content.

I agree that the camera angels in that scene were very distracting and it definitely took you out of the scene, which I'm sure was not their intent.  

[Omegamom]

I liked the way Chuck and Amara sort of...melted/smeared away, then resolved into black and white smoke...that was a very cool effect

[Sailor55CancriE]

I actually hate most of the female characters. I'm not sure why, they just come off as annoying or boring. Especially Amelia. Part of me thinks it's because most of them have a relationship with the boys, but most of me is like 'just because you are dating a strong character, doesn't make you a strong character.'

[7kstar]

On 5/27/2016 at 8:05 AM, sarthaz said:

Aww .. I was hoping we'd go with Lady McWhoFuckingCares from the other thread. :)

Since I love Shakespeare, I love this.  I think it will be how I will address the idiot.  lol

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 5/26/2016 at 7:49 PM, catrox14 said:

And you know the worst part? CGI is hellaexpensive. I mean it's more expensive than practical effects. That said Rob was actually doing wire work for that episode. The problem IMO is that the harness they use makes their legs sprawl out awkwardly and they don't seem to be able to move properly, like with Abaddon and her death scene and with Dean pinned up against the wall in that same scene.

But yeah I'm not a big fan of some of the effects lately. The souls flitting around is fine, and I liked how they did the Mark Pellegrino Lucifer face coming out of Misha's face. That was cool.

I'll have to go back and check that out. Despite having watched the episode twice now, I never noticed that effect. I feel as though I'm terminally unobservant sometimes anyway...It took reading here to make me notice that Amara's touch had killed the geraniums, and that she looked at her hands in realization afterwards; it explained why she said "I probably shouldn't" to pigeon lady, which had puzzled me the first time around. I was mostly distracted by the huge veins in her hands and how old they looked. That's my problem with watching TV/movies in general; I miss huge chunks of information because of getting distracted by a meaningless detail. The scene in the car, for instance, which is being discussed here - I was taken out of the scene as well, but not because of camera angles, per se. It was a smear on the window, which made me start wondering whether it had been put there purposely to accentuate the state of chaos, whether it was purely accidental but not worried about because it wasn't the sort of scene where you are looking for things to be pristine, whether it was at all a conscious choice of the director or not. I just found it distracting for some reason, and not because I have any sort of neatness fetish (much the opposite to be honest).

[SueB]

9 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

I'll have to go back and check that out. Despite having watched the episode twice now, I never noticed that effect. I feel as though I'm terminally unobservant sometimes anyway...It took reading here to make me notice that Amara's touch had killed the geraniums, and that she looked at her hands in realization afterwards; it explained why she said "I probably shouldn't" to pigeon lady, which had puzzled me the first time around. I was mostly distracted by the huge veins in her hands and how old they looked. That's my problem with watching TV/movies in general; I miss huge chunks of information because of getting distracted by a meaningless detail. The scene in the car, for instance, which is being discussed here - I was taken out of the scene as well, but not because of camera angles, per se. It was a smear on the window, which made me start wondering whether it had been put there purposely to accentuate the state of chaos, whether it was purely accidental but not worried about because it wasn't the sort of scene where you are looking for things to be pristine, whether it was at all a conscious choice of the director or not. I just found it distracting for some reason, and not because I have any sort of neatness fetish (much the opposite to be honest).

Squirrel!  

Just kidding.  I think we all get taken out of scene from time to time.  Or we think something matters and then later find out it was some random choice.  And I get my details by obsessively watching multiple times. Because. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

22 minutes ago, SueB said:

Squirrel!  

Just kidding.  I think we all get taken out of scene from time to time.  Or we think something matters and then later find out it was some random choice.  And I get my details by obsessively watching multiple times. Because. 

Ah, yes...because :) Always the best reason.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Spoilers With Speculation" thread (but no spoilers here):

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I truly hope that the myth-arc sl, which at this point seems to involve the british MOL, does not become simply yet another retread or redux of any other sl that we've seen so far, but I would not be the least bit surprised if that is exactly what happens as it seems like they cannot even move past the now ridiculously over-played Lucifer sl. The only good and original thing that I could ever foresee coming out of it at this point, would be the return of Michael with JA finally getting a chance to at long last take on that role. But it seems like the showrunners from all the way back into S5, just do not want to grant this long-held and still often asked for Dean/JA fan wish/desire. They've refused to even give Jensen the opportunity in a dreamscape or AU scenario. I will never understand their absolute refusal concerning this. Never.

Warning Anti-Michael rant ahead, please proceed with caution:

That is certainly not a fan wish from me. Michael is a jerk, and for me was never a hero or even necessarily trying to do the right thing. His logic was flawed. He wasn't fighting for humanity - at all. He had less regard for humans than even Gabriel did, who at the end at least turned it around. If Dean was going to say "yes" to that, Dean would have to be either going villainous, be extremely naive (which Dean is not), or have given up on humanity. I would dislike any of those things.

And the way Michael has been presented has been fairly consistent. There would be no reason for him to be doing anything remotely good, and the first thing he would likely want to do is kill Sam for getting him trapped in the cage in the first place, or cause the apocalypse like he wanted to. And I really don't want to see a Michael is redeemed by possessing Dean, because Dean teaches him humanity story. I love Dean, but enough with the Dean teaches everyone humanity stories already. We've had an angel (Castiel), his father-ish, his brother, a vampire (Benny), arguably an archangel (Gabriel), and god's sister. Oh, and arguably helped with God (Chuck), too.

I can't think of a single storyline where I would want to see Michael return unless it was for Dean to tell off his annoying, pompous ass for royally screwing with his family, and that certainly wouldn't involve Dean being possessed by him.

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I found the Comic Con stuff to be all too predictable again with, yes, JA's role apparently being regressed back to the strictly and only reacting mode.

But wasn't there a similar complaint from last year? That Jensen didn't seem to have anything much to say concerning Dean's role in the mytharc and that Sam was going to be the one to save the day and blah blah... and it all turned out to be not the case.

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I also had truly hoped that now that the two main characters seemed to have finally reached a sort of equilibrium where it pertains to the assigned roles of who gets the bulk of the myth-arc sl and who gets the bulk of the emotional/reactive storyline, we might finally be able to move forward with both actors and their respective characters once again being written and seen as all human protagonists.

When in recent seasons did that happen? The past few years, Sam's storyline has mostly been just the emotional arc, or in the case of season 9 wasn't either one, since Dean had the both the myth-arc and an emotional arc. Sam had some emotional arc that season, but the way it was presented, it was mostly bluster or Sam being wrong-headed since it all ended with "I lied" and wasn't really emotional growth at all since of course Sam would do the same thing... we saw that in other seasons - except 8, so all that emotional arc was was bringing Sam back to where he was before Carver regressed him in the first place. It was mostly a waste of time.

However, that said, I didn't really need balance this year. I was okay with Dean having the storyline, because at least Sam was acting like Sam instead of someone I didn't recognize. And the emotional episodes Sam did have were, for me, some of my favorites in a long, long time.

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I see that everyone at CC was once again saying that they were again going back to the "roots of the show". I truly hope that that's not just code for we're doing DemonSam again and it's going to span numerous seasons again.

I wouldn't actually mind if Sam actually got some true closure with the storyline

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I'm sure that Jensen will act the hell out of Mary's return, but I'd like more than just emo for the character this season and I'd like to see the return of DemonHunterExtraordinaireDean, in all of his badass glory, and even when one of his family members is not in imminent danger. THIS would be a return to the show's roots for me-at least as far as the Dean character is concerned and if they're again going to choose to exclude him entirely from any physically supernaturally-connected storyline that they've dreamed up for Sam again- and again, IF this is where they're headed for the umpteenth time-to which I reiterate-No thank you, writers. Please come up with something else. Anything else. Please.

I'm not seeing how Dean has been "excluded from any physically supernaturally-connected storyline"  in recent years or even in the past. Even when Dean hasn't been the mytharc, he's had many, many badass moments. Compare that to season 8 or Dean's mark of Cain storyline. Season 8 had Dean in purgatory killing  monsters everywhere, while Sam "hit a dog" and hung out with Amelia. Season 9 saw Sam with a total of 2 solo kill episodes while Dean was killing demons and monsters right and left. Season 10 had Dean on a killing spree of demons and bad guys galore. And even when Sam had the mytharc in earlier seasons, Dean would have his own bottle episodes where he would be entirely badass. Or maybe I'm just missing something.

Edited July 29, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[FlickChick]

I personally think that the bottom line is that we have two factions in fandom - and each wants their favorite character not to be ignored by the writers. By this time - 12 seasons in - we should have two brothers working together for the common good. Not one saving the other, not the storyline focused on only one and not the other, but a good mytharc, emotional storyline that involves both brothers. I say it's about time to do that and then close up shop. JMO

[AwesomO4000]

I mostly agree with you, @FlickChick, except for the closing up shop part. I think that if they can get the balance right I'd like the show to stick around some more.

But then again I'm not even that picky I don't think. I don't even mind if the storyline isn't balanced. I'm just happy so long as Sam isn't being turned into a jerk, made to look massively incompetent, or starting an apocalypse. My only objection at all to Dean having the storyline this year was that it was at the expense of Sam starting yet another apocalypse, and this season was my favorite by a good margin of the last 4 seasons. Season 10 would be closer if not for the last minute "of course Sam screws everything up" final hour thing *sigh.* I really liked Sam's emotional arcs and episodes this season, so it was all good with me that he didn't have the mytharc (I actually preferred it to some of the times Sam did have the myth arc - like in season 4 and 8.) Even with my above objection, this season would probably be in my top 5 seasons of this show.

However actually now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind a "Sam saves Dean" storyline that doesn't end in starting an apocalypse, because I don't think we've really actually had one of those that I remember.

Crap. Maybe I don't agree with you as much as I thought I did.

And though your opinion is entirely valid... It just might be beyond the capabilities of most televisions shows to do, especially for one this long in the tooth. Unlike a book - which is written by one person - I think the multiple writers thing generally restricts many television shows from getting really complex and focusing successfully on multiple characters and arcs.

But the bottom line I guess is that I'm a character person. The story for me always takes a back seat to that. I don't want an "equal" story if that means that Sam or Dean ends up being a jerk.  Sam can have the most exciting storyline imaginable, but I won't like it if it's not something I think Sam would do or it's something that I wouldn't want to see Sam doing. And the same goes for Dean. It's why - as I described in my rant above - that I would hate a Michael uses Dean as a vessel storyline. Sure it would be exciting, but it's not something I would want to see Dean's character doing, because for me that isn't something Dean would do. At all. Yuck. Sorry, just my opinion on that.

I also would've hated a Sam says "yes" to Lucifer again storyline for the same reason, and I kind of felt bad for Castiel that he did say "yes..." though I kind of guess that is something that Cas would do. He seems to have a harder time learning his lesson for some reason - poor Cas.

[FlickChick]

Well, Sam did save Dean from staying a demon, against demon!Dean's wishes. I do agree with you regarding how many times Sam's actions have had dire results, but that only started with the end of S4 and causing Lucifer to rise. If we're going to throw blame around, it has always been my opinion that all of the bad things that have happened since the boys got together have been a result of Dean selling his soul to save Sam's life. Of course we wouldn't even have a show if Dean didn't, but that really starts the ball rolling down hill. Using that logic, all of the apocalypses were a result of Dean's action of selling his soul. Of course we could go around and around about the love of family, sacrifice, etc., but that's really where it started. Even Yellow Eyes giving Sam demon blood wouldn't make any difference if he died in Cold Oak and Dean didn't make a deal.

[Demented Daisy]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

The only good and original thing that I could ever foresee coming out of it at this point, would be the return of Michael with JA finally getting a chance to at long last take on that role. But it seems like the showrunners from all the way back into S5, just do not want to grant this long-held and still often asked for Dean/JA fan wish/desire.

 

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That is certainly not a fan wish from me.

Nope, me neither.  Didn't want it in S5, don't want it now.  I've never wanted Dean to be anyone but Dean -- I love him just the way he is, as the song goes.

(Sorry about the misattribution -- it's Myrelle's quote, but I can't seem to fix it.)

Edited July 29, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

 

Nope, me neither.  Didn't want it in S5, don't want it now.  I've never wanted Dean to be anyone but Dean -- I love him just the way he is, as the song goes.

(Sorry about the misattribution -- it's Myrelle's quote, but I can't seem to fix it.)

Classic Dean is classy enough for me too! 

[Myrelle]

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Classic Dean is classy enough for me too! 

But what about JA the Actor? I think this would be a great question for one of these next cons. Would Jensen not like to explore Dean as Michael? I offer this up as a question from someone who will likely never attend  a convention of any sort...

And Dean need not be written OOC in an AU...

Edited July 30, 2016 by Myrelle
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[Myrelle]

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Well, Sam did save Dean from staying a demon, against demon!Dean's wishes. I do agree with you regarding how many times Sam's actions have had dire results, but that only started with the end of S4 and causing Lucifer to rise. If we're going to throw blame around, it has always been my opinion that all of the bad things that have happened since the boys got together have been a result of Dean selling his soul to save Sam's life. Of course we wouldn't even have a show if Dean didn't, but that really starts the ball rolling down hill. Using that logic, all of the apocalypses were a result of Dean's action of selling his soul. Of course we could go around and around about the love of family, sacrifice, etc., but that's really where it started. Even Yellow Eyes giving Sam demon blood wouldn't make any difference if he died in Cold Oak and Dean didn't make a deal.

 This has to go back to Mary's deal as there would be no Dean( or Sam) w/o Mary's deal.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Myrelle
add info

[Demented Daisy]

33 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

But what about JA the Actor?

Well, this is the unpopular opinions thread, so... I don't care what the actors want.  No offense to them, but I care about the character, not the actor.  I'm sure he's a perfectly nice person, but how he feels about the show has zero effect on how I feel about it.  He may have wanted Demon Dean to go on for more episodes, for example, but I was thankful it ended as quickly as it did.  If it were up to me, it never would have happened, but that's another discussion.

Frankly, I have no interest in seeing Jensen (or Jared or Misha, etc.) become the next David Canary (R.I.P.).  Frankly, I miss Castiel.  It seems like such a long time since he's been himself.  I don't want that to happen to Dean (and, to a lesser extent, Sam).

32 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

This has to go back to Mary's deal as there would be no Dean( or Sam) w/o Mary's deal.

Even further than that, since the angels engineered the match of John and Mary.

[DittyDotDot]

30 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

But what about JA the Actor? I think this would be a great question for one of these next cons. Would Jensen not like to explore Dean as Michael? I offer this up as a question from someone who will likely never attend  a convention of any sort...

And Dean need not be written OOC in an AU...

Whatever they give Jensen to do, I'm confident he'll do it justice, but I'm in it for the characters and the story. Decisions for storylines should be character-based, not actor-based, IMO. 

Plus, I guess, I just fail to see what's so special about Micheal that would be such a boon for Jensen to get to play. Wouldn't it just be mimickery of what Matt Cohen did with the role back in S5?  Look how that sort of thing turned out with Lucifer/Misha? 

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Even further than that, since the angels engineered the match of John and Mary.

Which leads back to God and his "plan" the angels were supposedly trying to make happen. You could drive yourself nuts with this sort of thing. ;)

[Myrelle]

.\

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Even further than that, since the angels engineered the match of John and Mary.

 

And Mary still chose John above everything and everyone else when the ultimate choice was presented to her.

Her choice was the initial disruption of the natural order, as far as we've seen; and as such, her choice was the springboard to everything else that's ever happened; again, as far as we know so far...

 This show is all about human choice, and all of the power of that's linked to/with human choice, IMO.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Myrelle
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[ahrtee]

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

But what about JA the Actor? I think this would be a great question for one of these next cons. Would Jensen not like to explore Dean as Michael? I offer this up as a question from someone who will likely never attend  a convention of any sort...

And Dean need not be written OOC in an AU...

IIRC, In one of the Nerd HQ interviews last week, Jensen talked about The End and how much it took out of him to play two different Deans, and said something like "never again."  Jared then went on to say  that that's the reason why he gets to be the one to play all the alternate versions, (I can think of Soulless Sam, Meg!Sam, Gadreel, and Samifer off the top of my head).  The only other "alternate" versions of Dean I can remember are as the shapeshifter way back in Skin, Demon!Dean, and the short time Dean and Sam were possessed  by the witch in the Wizard of Oz ep...are there others I can't remember?   I don't know if Jensen really *doesn't* want to play other versions, like Michael!Dean (even if he doesn't have to play opposite himself!)--or if he's just too protective of the character and doesn't want to see him do anything that wasn't really "Dean" (as Awesom04000 mentioned above).  

I have to say I liked TheEnd!Dean,Purgatory!Dean and Meg!Sam (because they were so beautifully played!) was interested to see Soulless!Sam and Samifer (because of the SLs), and wasn't thrilled with Gadreel or Demon!Dean (just because the characters/stories weren't well thought out), so for me, it depends on how well it's written.   YMMV.  (Ooh....how about Dean as Gabriel, saying he's been "fixed" by Chuck but hasn't found a permanent vessel yet?)

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And Mary still chose John above everything and everyone else when the ultimate choice was presented to her.

It's tough with Mary, because she didn't know what the deal really was. Azazel wasn't telling. She was all of 18/19 and had just seen her father possessed, her mother and fiance murdered in the span of like one day.  I suspect if she realized the deal was for Sam to be a demon blood baby should would not have made that choice but she didn't know. 

I think Mary was reckless but I don't blame her really. And I don't blame Dean for trying to save Sam's life by making a deal. At the time Dean made the deal, he thought he was only going to affect him and Sam. Dean was prepared for the price he was told he would pay. I feel pretty sure that if Dean knew he was starting the Apocalypse he would not have made that deal..... well I'm pretty sure. ....I think. LOL Oh Dean.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

IIRC, In one of the Nerd HQ interviews last week, Jensen talked about The End and how much it took out of him to play two different Deans, and said something like "never again."

Jensen has talked in the past about THE END and that it's his favorite episode (which he reiterated in at Nerd HQ. That's one of the few episodes where he gives himself credit for a good job. Not that he doesn't do a good job but that he's quite humble about his own good works. IIRC, he said  the stress came from playing two different versions of Dean opposite himself with wardrobe and hair changes and character modifications to play Future!Dean and then change everything back to play the present!Dean. He said it messed him and was exhausting. 

It seems pretty clear to me that Jensen relishes playing different aspects of Dean and he obviously LOVED playing Demon!Dean or he wouldn't keep bringing it up as something he wished had gone longer.   If he were to play Michael, it would be against other actors and not the dual role in the same episode like he did in The End.

[ahrtee]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Jensen has talked in the past about THE END and that it's his favorite episode (which he reiterated in at Nerd HQ. That's one of the few episodes where he gives himself credit for a good job. Not that he doesn't do a good job but that he's quite humble about his own good works. IIRC, he said  the stress came from playing two different versions of Dean opposite himself with wardrobe and hair changes and character modifications to play Future!Dean and then change everything back to play the present!Dean. He said it messed him and was exhausting. 

It seems pretty clear to me that Jensen relishes playing different aspects of Dean and he obviously LOVED playing Demon!Dean or he wouldn't keep bringing it up as something he wished had gone longer.   If he were to play Michael, it would be against other actors and not the dual role in the same episode like he did in The End.

I know Jensen was talking about the strain of playing against himself and that (IMO) is what he said "never again" to, but Jared then went on to point out that he's been the one playing all the alternate versions I mentioned, so that made me wonder.  I know Jensen enjoyed playing Demon!Dean (who was still Dean, not another character pretending to be Dean) and I think that may be Jensen's point: he wants to play Dean, not another-character-in-Dean.  Again, JMO.  

[catrox14]

This is just my personal opinion but I think once demon!Dean was kicked to the curb in 3 episodes which disappointed him, Jensen gave up because that was was when he started saying he'll stick to driving the car and bailing out Sam.  I think he's just being diplomatic.

But yeah I would LOVE for someone to ask him about Michael.

[DittyDotDot]

51 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IIRC, In one of the Nerd HQ interviews last week, Jensen talked about The End and how much it took out of him to play two different Deans, and said something like "never again."  Jared then went on to say  that that's the reason why he gets to be the one to play all the alternate versions, (I can think of Soulless Sam, Meg!Sam, Gadreel, and Samifer off the top of my head).  The only other "alternate" versions of Dean I can remember are as the shapeshifter way back in Skin, Demon!Dean, and the short time Dean and Sam were possessed  by the witch in the Wizard of Oz ep...are there others I can't remember?   I don't know if Jensen really *doesn't* want to play other versions, like Michael!Dean (even if he doesn't have to play opposite himself!)--or if he's just too protective of the character and doesn't want to see him do anything that wasn't really "Dean" (as Awesom04000 mentioned above).  

I have to say I liked TheEnd!Dean,Purgatory!Dean and Meg!Sam (because they were so beautifully played!) was interested to see Soulless!Sam and Samifer (because of the SLs), and wasn't thrilled with Gadreel or Demon!Dean (just because the characters/stories weren't well thought out), so for me, it depends on how well it's written.   YMMV.  (Ooh....how about Dean as Gabriel, saying he's been "fixed" by Chuck but hasn't found a permanent vessel yet?)

I was going to say I felt like it's not so much that Jared gets to play all the "others", but I think there's been quite a few different versions or facets of Dean for Jensen to play: Future Dean, Shapeshifter Dean, Demon Dean, etc., while Jared generally plays other characters in Sam's body--Meg-in-a-Sam, Gadreel-in-a-Sam, etc. But then, I remembered Soulless Sam and Dean Smith...nothing can ever be simple, can it? ;)

Anyhoo, regarding The End: On the commentary, Kripke says Jensen sent him an email afterward saying "never again." But I didn't think it was about playing a different version of Dean, it's that Jensen had to also play Dean, as well. It was just a tremendous amount of work, there's hardly any frame he's not in at least once, and many twice. They already work some very long hours when he's just playing one Dean; two was very exhausting. However, Jensen has also stated many times that despite the challenge, he's very proud of it mostly because he pushed through and did it. Which is classic, and classy, Jensen, if you ask me.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Well, Sam did save Dean from staying a demon, against demon!Dean's wishes. I do agree with you regarding how many times Sam's actions have had dire results, but that only started with the end of S4 and causing Lucifer to rise. If we're going to throw blame around, it has always been my opinion that all of the bad things that have happened since the boys got together have been a result of Dean selling his soul to save Sam's life. Of course we wouldn't even have a show if Dean didn't, but that really starts the ball rolling down hill. Using that logic, all of the apocalypses were a result of Dean's action of selling his soul. Of course we could go around and around about the love of family, sacrifice, etc., but that's really where it started. Even Yellow Eyes giving Sam demon blood wouldn't make any difference if he died in Cold Oak and Dean didn't make a deal.

I had a huge, well thought out post that took me about an hour to write - and no, I'm not kidding - and of course the internet ate it, so I am going to assume Karma was telling me that it wasn't meant to be.

I will mention a few points though - which was to say that I was going to mention Dean's de-demoning as a rare win example for Sam, but that it was so short-lived - with Castiel (I think) pointing out immediately that Dean still had the mark of Cain, so the problem still remained - that I decided that it wasn't really that big a win. Also considering we had to wait over 9 seasons to even get it after so many Sam failures was kinda sad - with even in season 8 having a vampire save Dean instead of Sam. *sigh* Even more annoying: Sam finally gets a big save of Dean, and so it causes an apocalypse. Really, show? Because apparently only Dean is allowed to make reckless decisions to save Sam without getting a major narrative smackdown.

As to Dean and the deal, I had a well thought out section as to the show not seeming to see Dean's role as very relevant in starting the apocalypse, even bringing in the point that they repeated the storyline with even this time giving Dean positive results when they did the Gadreel storyline, so pretty much Dean making the deal was given no weight for the most part and more likely supported as a good thing. Dean was absolved way back in the season 3 finale, by saying that it was his fault and going to hell, and it's pretty much been shifted over to Sam ever since.

I thought they might address it in season 4, and in fact felt kind of sorry for Sam that even though he didn't ask Dean to save him, Dean expected him to live how Dean wanted him to rather than have his own choices (even if those choices weren't great, it still should've been Sam's choice to make), but nope the writers didn't address that, making it all about Sam making the wrong choice and "betraying" Dean by doing so... a stigma Sam was stuck with on and off for the next 4 seasons or more. (Even though Sam also admitted fault and went to hell.) Never mind Dean's original potentially bad choice and how he might've betrayed Sam by doing to him what John did to Dean... but nope never mind. I can't get that post back, and wouldn't be able to duplicate its carefully thought out well-rounded point of view anyway.

I should've control C'd - but usually the recovery thing at least works, but nope that didn't work either. *is annoyed*

[ahrtee]

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I was going to say I felt like it's not so much that Jared gets to play all the "others", but I think there's been quite a few different versions or facets of Dean for Jensen to play: Future Dean, Shapeshifter Dean, Demon Dean, etc., while Jared generally plays other characters in Sam's body--Meg-in-a-Sam, Gadreel-in-a-Sam, etc. But then, I remembered Soulless Sam and Dean Smith...nothing can ever be simple, can it? ;)

Anyhoo, regarding The End: On the commentary, Kripke says Jensen sent him an email afterward saying "never again." But I didn't think it was about playing a different version of Dean, it's that Jensen had to also play Dean, as well. It was just a tremendous amount of work, there's hardly any frame he's not in at least once, and many twice. They already work some very long hours when he's just playing one Dean; two was very exhausting. However, Jensen has also stated many times that despite the challenge, he's very proud of it mostly because he pushed through and did it. Which is classic, and classy, Jensen, if you ask me.

Hmmm...I think I wasn't too clear, and I apologize.  I *know* that Jensen was talking about all the work and energy it took to play two Deans at once, and I wasn't trying to say that Jensen doesn't want to play other aspects.  My point (I think) was more like what you said:  Jensen plays different facets of *Dean*:  there's future!Dean, Purgatory!Dean, Demon!Dean, even stoned!Dean and Vampire!Dean...but they're all DEAN.  Jared sometimes plays aspects of Sam (ie, SoullessSam) and sometimes other characters entirely, like Gadreel, Lucifer or Meg.  The only time I remember Jensen playing someone NOT Dean was the shapeshifter in season 1...who was still sort-of-Dean.  Even Dean Smith/Sam Wesson were still really Sam/Dean, not someone pretending to be them, so Jensen was still playing Dean.   I may be missing some, so let me know if I'm wrong.  This goes all the way back to season 1, so it's not just that he was disillusioned with Demon!Dean being short-changed.  

So when I started thinking about all the "other characters in Sam's body" I started wondering if Jensen always playing Dean was a choice (or preference) on his part, or just circumstance--or some showrunner's plan.    I know I used to wonder why Jared was always the one to get those "meatier" roles, where he plays against character--the actors I've known or heard about usually enjoy variety in characters that they've been playing for long time, so it would seem like Jensen and Jared would both have the opportunity if they wanted.  

Anyway,  it would be interesting to see if now Jensen finally gets to play another character-in-Dean, but I'm not really expecting it .  

[catrox14]

I think shapeshifter!Dean is sadly underrated for a great and completely different character. He was nothing like Dean. His voice was different. His manner when he revealed himself to Sam's friend and to Sam himself was nothing like Dean, IMO. 

Basically Jensen was playing Dean and Shapeshifter!Dean who was also playing regular!Dean.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

The only time I remember Jensen playing someone NOT Dean was the shapeshifter in season 1...who was still sort-of-Dean.  Even Dean Smith/Sam Wesson were still really Sam/Dean, not someone pretending to be them, so Jensen was still playing Dean.

Ooh ooh - there was Leviathan Dean who was not Dean as well.

Also I'm not really sure if future Dean counts as a version of Dean, since he wasn't really our Dean. And we're not even completely sure if he was a real alternative version of Dean or some construct of Zachariah's or some combination of both.

And he wasn't around too long, but there was Hallucination LuciferDean who had the memorable line "Don't let Satan change my presets" which wouldn't make sense if it was real Dean, but made a lot of sense as a hallucination LuciferDean. That was also an interesting character since it wasn't really Dean, and I could tell something was off, but somehow not enough that I was suspicious but still fooled.

There were other hallucinated Deans that weren't really Dean either, but are maybe less obvious as "other." I don't like to think about the one in "I think I'm Gonna Like It Here," because I don't like that episode. But the one in "When the Levee Breaks" was memorable and not quite Dean-like.

Dean was also briefly "herpeed" by the Khan worm, but that didn't last long.

I'm probably missing one or two as well, but a lot of season 8 and 9 is a blur... some of 10 also.

[SueB]

First, a moment of silence for AwesomeO's post.

*    *

I've had that happen  it sucks.

Second, I didn't realized 'Jensen as Michael' was something people wanted. Imma gonna let Michael rot in the cage thankyouverymuch. Michael was the one who drove kick starting the last Apocalypse by setting up Mary and John with Cupid. He can stay in the corner. 

I'm always happy when Jensen gets an opportunity to stretch his acting wings. Kinda over the possession thing  let's bring back another shapeshifter.

14 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I personally think that the bottom line is that we have two factions in fandom - and each wants their favorite character not to be ignored by the writers. 

My unpopular opinion is that the writers do not ignore either Sam or Dean. And the story is pretty balanced. As for factions - I'm Team Everyone but I think the fandom is mutifaceted. 

[Boopsahoy]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Imma gonna let Michael rot in the cage thankyouverymuch. Michael was the one who drove kick starting the last Apocalypse by setting up Mary and John with Cupid. He can stay in the corner. 

I agree. Actually if Michael came back Id rather Matt Cohen reprise the role.

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

So when I started thinking about all the "other characters in Sam's body" I started wondering if Jensen always playing Dean was a choice (or preference) on his part, or just circumstance--or some showrunner's plan.    I know I used to wonder why Jared was always the one to get those "meatier" roles, where he plays against character--the actors I've known or heard about usually enjoy variety in characters that they've been playing for long time, so it would seem like Jensen and Jared would both have the opportunity if they wanted.  

Anyway,  it would be interesting to see if now Jensen finally gets to play another character-in-Dean, but I'm not really expecting it .  

In the early seasons, I believe it was a purposeful choice by the show because Dean's was the "human" on the show. So, Dean was always Dean, for the most part. I think it mostly persists because writers started writing to each actors' strengths.

I think Jensen is a master at finding that little subtle line to walk between the two characters--like Future Dean and Demon Dean. And, I think Jared generally does well with that sort of mimickery that goes along with playing another character in your character's body--like Meg-in-a-Sam, Gadreel-in-a-Sam or Lucifer-in-a-Sam. Not that I don't think they can do both, but I think Jensen is one of those actors who just tends to work better without a road map and Jared works better with one and the writers know that. 

Personally, I'd think the "meatier" roles would be what they give Jensen to do. But, I'm not an actor and probably just projecting my own preferences of what I prefer to see as a viewer. Anytime an actor can dig into their character and show me something new or nuanced I've never seen or thought of about that character, I'm pretty happy. 

1 hour ago, SueB said:

My unpopular opinion is that the writers do not ignore either Sam or Dean. And the story is pretty balanced. As for factions - I'm Team Everyone but I think the fandom is mutifaceted. 

I totally agree. I'm not so sure that's actually an unpopular opinion, but it sure does seem to be one here.

Edited July 30, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Ooh ooh - there was Leviathan Dean who was not Dean as well.

Also I'm not really sure if future Dean counts as a version of Dean, since he wasn't really our Dean. And we're not even completely sure if he was a real alternative version of Dean or some construct of Zachariah's or some combination of both.

And he wasn't around too long, but there was Hallucination LuciferDean who had the memorable line "Don't let Satan change my presets" which wouldn't make sense if it was real Dean, but made a lot of sense as a hallucination LuciferDean. That was also an interesting character since it wasn't really Dean, and I could tell something was off, but somehow not enough that I was suspicious but still fooled.

There were other hallucinated Deans that weren't really Dean either, but are maybe less obvious as "other." I don't like to think about the one in "I think I'm Gonna Like It Here," because I don't like that episode. But the one in "When the Levee Breaks" was memorable and not quite Dean-like.

Dean was also briefly "herpeed" by the Khan worm, but that didn't last long.

I'm probably missing one or two as well, but a lot of season 8 and 9 is a blur... some of 10 also.

Oh, you're right!  I'd forgotten Leviathan!Dean, who was definitely a different person (more like shapeshifter!Dean, who was using Dean's form and memories but not his actual body.)  The hallucinations (including the one in DALDOM) are a little more iffy to me, because they really are Dean, at least through someone else's thoughts, but I'm willing to concede those.  Maybe the real difference is that Sam has multi-ep arcs when he's a different character or a different version of Sam (and thinking that way, I can include not just Soulless Sam through half of season 6, but Sick!Sam for the second half of season 8 and Hallucifer-vision Sam, driven to desperation, in season 7.)  Not to say these were a good thing for the audience (half a season without the character we know and love, just like Casifer last season) but they were definitely acting challenges.  

23 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

In the early seasons, I believe it was a purposeful choice by the show because Dean's was the "human" on the show. So, Dean was always Dean, for the most part. I think it mostly persists because writers started writing to each actors' strengths.

I think Jensen is a master at finding that little subtle line to walk between the two characters--like Future Dean and Demon Dean. And, I think Jared generally does well with that sort of mimickery that goes along with playing another character in your character's body--like Meg-in-a-Sam, Gadreel-in-a-Sam or Lucifer-in-a-Sam. Not that I don't think they can do both, but I think Jensen is one of those actors who just tends to work better without a road map and Jared works better with one and the writers know that. 

Personally, I'd think the "meatier" roles would be what they give Jensen to do. But, I'm not an actor and probably just projecting my own preferences of what I prefer to see as a viewer. Anytime an actor can dig into their character and show me something new or nuanced I've never seen or thought of about that character, I'm pretty happy. 

I like your idea that Dean remained the human in the show.  I'm not sure if now it's because of writing to their strengths, or if it's just become the standard/commonplace.  I think the writers have been pretty lazy over the last few years.  

I do think Jensen is better than Jared (sorry!) about finding the subtle nuances between different versions of his character (Jared can do it, but Jensen is better, IMO), though I'm not sure how that translates to the "character-in-your-character's-body", but I can agree that maybe that's the difference.  So, as I pointed out above, maybe what I'm thinking of is more the extent of the character changes than the actual changes themselves.  Again, just curious, not really wanting to start a Sam-vs-Dean war again, because yes, I do agree that they're both given equal time in the storylines.  My idea of "meatier" role was not more time, or more focus on one over the other, but something that challenges the actor to do/be something different.  

On a separate note, as a dedicated Dean h/c junkie, I'm a little sad that it always seems to be Sam who's tied down and tortured.  I don't think it's the "Samsel/must be rescued" part, because often it's done to cure instead of hurt (like pulling out Gadreel or putting back his soul), and often Sam gets himself out.  Maybe it's because Jared screams so well...  

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I do think Jensen is better than Jared (sorry!) about finding the subtle nuances between different versions of his character (Jared can do it, but Jensen is better, IMO), though I'm not sure how that translates to the "character-in-your-character's-body", but I can agree that maybe that's the difference.  So, as I pointed out above, maybe what I'm thinking of is more the extent of the character changes than the actual changes themselves.  Again, just curious, not really wanting to start a Sam-vs-Dean war again, because yes, I do agree that they're both given equal time in the storylines.  My idea of "meatier" role was not more time, or more focus on one over the other, but something that challenges the actor to do/be something different.  

In general, on this show, the character-in-a-character is mostly characters already established by another actor, so it's more mimicking what they did with the character to maintain consistency. For instance, like how Jared went back and watched original recipe Meg's episodes from S1 to match some of her cadence and mannerisms when doing Born Under A Bad Sign--IMO, one of Jared's best performances on the show. On the other hand, Jared's spoken about how Soulless Sam terrified him because TPTB basically told him they were leaving it up to him for performance--which, IMO, is one of his weaker performances, no matter how much I liked the idea of it. They basically did the same thing with Jensen and Demon Dean, but Jensen was pretty quick to figure what that meant and what he wanted to do with it. 

I just think Jared is better when he has more direction or something to base his performance off of and Jensen is better without much direction and left to his own devices. That's not a slight against either of them, some people work better in a more structured environment and some people work better without the structure. But, I think the writers noticed that pretty early-on and started writing to it. But now? Yeah, I too think it's lazy.

Like I said, IMO, storylines should be done for character reasons, not actor reasons and, IMO, the show has relied on the actors to make the story work, rather than coming up with a compelling story for the actors to work with, for far too long.

[Myrelle]

Quote

I can't think of a single storyline where I would want to see Michael return unless it was for Dean to tell off his annoying, pompous ass for royally screwing with his family, and that certainly wouldn't involve Dean being possessed by him.

Well, I can think of many storylines involving Michael's return that I'd like to see, but I'm sure that they would never write Jensen in the Dean/Michael role at this point, so half the posters here would likely get their wish in this regard. I say half just going by the likes to the comments in this thread on that topic. And I would rather they not bring the character back at all if their plan would be to never get his shot at that role. Jensen actually helped Matt Cohen shape his take on Michael with the thought that he'd likely play that role also before the season was over(this, from one of the cons that were going on at the time).

Michael has supposedly los this mind in the cage-according to Lucifer, at least; and as such his words should be taken with a grain of salt, IMO, but even if he has lost his mind, he could likely pretend that he hasn't and Jensen would play this to the hilt. Tom Hanniger comes to mind here.

From all I've read and seen on this topic, IMO, Dean as Michael would electrify this fandom even more than MOCDean and DemonDean did precisely because it has been asked for and wished for more than any other Dean sl, IMO-again, just going by what I've read and seen within the Dean fandom. I WILL say this, though-in my fandom experience, many in the Dean fandom have left or retreated into the Lurkdom for the most part; and this because they feel that not much will truly change on the show as far as role assignments are concerned-and even if by some miracle(as happened with the MOC sl) the writers might  againmake the move to let JA spread his acting wings a little more in this way, it would again only be curtailed/cut short in it's prime-for reasons. Still, *I* personally would welcome it with open arms as much as I welcomed the MOC sl for Dean-more so even. The Dean fandom has become accustomed to his storylines getting short shrift by the writers/showrunners at this point in the game, IMO, and those of  us who are still here know that it would likely be one episode or three at the most and would be grateful for this-as we were grateful when Dean/JA was surprisingly given the main myth-arc all to himself from the second half of s9-11, while Sam/JP was gifted with the same for the first five seasons, at least, with some(myself included) believing that he also solely carried the main myth-arc sl in big chunks of S6 and 7 also, having to share it with Castiel/MC then. S8 saw the myth-arc divided in half, IMO-with equal focus on JP's emo Samelia sl in the first half of that season and then completely on his Trials sl in the second half.

So when I see the roles of the main characters as having reached an equilibrium, to me(and to many other Deanfans out there that I've seen) it's not true equilibrium in the genuine sense of that word, but it was the best that the writers were willing to give us. For some, it was enough-as it was for me, or I wouldn't still be watching, even though I'm not watching live and just DVRing it all the time again and as I did after S8 until First Born aired.

My last thought is that both brothers have been given an emo storyline even when they carry the myth-arc. Those respective storylines depend on the actors' ability to showcase it much more than the myth-arc storylines do, IMO-and IA with the thought that JA has always been better at showing this to the audience even when there's little to no actual writing to them on the page. That he's better at it, shouldn't keep him pigeon-holed there, IMO, though. We've seen what he can do with both now, and many of us want more of that and less of the strictly handwringing and crying over other characters. That's regression and stifling of the actor much more than the character, IMO. And yes, JA likely doesn't feel this way OR he just doesn't like to make waves BTS, but his fans and their feelings are another story, and hopefully there are still enough of us here who are still willing to speak up for what we, his fandom, would like to see the writers do with his character-just as the fans of the other characters/actors on this show do-and maybe Dean kept the myth-arc at the end of s11 because many in his fandom spoke up regarding that all through out s11 right from the very beginning. The PTBs(and even the actors) say that they listen to us and try to give us what we want, so I will keep asking for Dean as Michael until the cows come home or until the series ends, I even have this little head canon where as a twist on the S5 finale, Dean confronts Lucifer but this time hosting Michael, who sends Lucifer back to the Pit, but decides that he likes it right where he is, inside Dean and we head into s13 like that. That would be one of the few kind of redux'/re-dos that I could get behind, but I'm pretty sure that this is an unpopular opinion/scenario at this particular site.

[Demented Daisy]

7 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Michael has supposedly los this mind in the cage-according to Lucifer, at least; and as such his words should be taken with a grain of salt, IMO,

Didn't Chuck also make a comment about Michael being beyond saving, or something like that?  Michael was so far gone that Chuck didn't have enough time to reconstruct him?  (Same with Gabriel -- Chuck confirmed that he is, indeed, dead.  Boo!)

[Diane]

I watch this show for the characters of Sam and Dean, I don't like it when they are possessed or soulless or not themselves. It is painful and hurtful for those characters, so for that reason I don't want Dean to be possessed by Michael it would not be a good thing for Dean. I also would not want Sam to be possessed again or to have demon blood, it's hurtful to the character.  In the end I want them to be happy or what can at least pass for happy with their lives.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Diane

[catrox14]

47 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Didn't Chuck also make a comment about Michael being beyond saving, or something like that?  Michael was so far gone that Chuck didn't have enough time to reconstruct him?  (Same with Gabriel -- Chuck confirmed that he is, indeed, dead.  Boo!)

 

Maybe he said it to protect Michael and Gabriel for a future battle.  JMHO. I think Chod was a lying liar so why not lie about Michael and Gabriel too. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[AwesomO4000]

15 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

On the other hand, Jared's spoken about how Soulless Sam terrified him because TPTB basically told him they were leaving it up to him for performance--which, IMO, is one of his weaker performances, no matter how much I liked the idea of it.

My unpopular opinion is that I liked Jared's portrayal of soulless Sam, especially later on when we found out what was wrong with him. He was genuinely creepy for me when he gave that smile while watching Dean get bitten and when he gave that bloody-toothed smile after biting his arm. My favorite Soulless Sam scene was the one in "The Man Who Knew Too Much" (One of my favorite Jared performance episodes) when there was the contrast between regular Sam and soulless Sam... and then Hell Memory Sam was added, and I adored that version as well.

My least favorite portrayal of Jared's was Gadreel. Oh and when he was possessed by the teen manwitch. And most of the first half of season 8. Wait, I take it back - that was my least favorite. Whiny, pining for Amelia Sam was extremely annoying and not at all convincing for me. I didn't buy their "great love" for a minute despite all of the scenes they had together - unlike for Jessica where in just those two dream sequences with LuciferJess, I could feel Sam's loss of her.
 

Also weirdly, and unpopularly - and don't shoot me - I sometimes find Jensen's emotional scenes too much. Not that they aren't good - I realize they are excellent - they are just maybe too much? (Except the comedy sometimes. I often prefer Jared's more subtle comedy to Jensen's more overt comedy which I sometimes do find to be just too much - not always, but "Yellow Fever" comes to mind.) But maybe it's because Jensen does the emotional so well that I am now maybe spoiled? So that it takes more to impress me from him somehow... so when Jared gets an emotional scene and really nails it for me - like that "Behind Blue Eyes" scene in "The Book of the Damned" - I tend to feel it more. But even in the beginning I felt that way - the scene at the end of "Bloody Mary" where Sam thinks he sees Jessica is another example. Or his hopeful smile when Dean walks into the hotel room at the end of "A Very Supernatural Christmas" or the look Jared gives during his Dean hug at the end of "Mystery Spot"* - so I don't know. Something might be off about me. Heh. I have the same problem with food. Sometimes something tastes delicious, but it's just too much / strong (barbecue sauce, for example, or spicy food) so I don't like it as much as something less flavorful - while other people don't get what the hell I'm talking about. ("How can something be too flavorful?") I think I see Jared and Jensen's portrayals of Sam and Dean in kind of the same way maybe?

That likely only made sense to me. My head truly is a strange place.... *shows myself out*

* Those two kill me every time

[SueB]

I get too flavorful. 

When I binged watched, I think the performances stood out easily for me. When Inrealtime watch, my mind is too cluttered to pick up everything. So, for me, I enjoy the performance more on repeat. Especially the facial expressions. Although some DO just grab me at the moment. Maybe how they say something or a look. But on rewatch all the details fill in. Kinda a variant on too flavorful. I have to savor to appreciate fully. But what I appreciate is not always what others do.  So, I'm fairly certain there's very little 'objectively bad' in anything we're offered.  Except Mans Best Friends With Benefits.  And Bloodlines.  But not the acting if the two leads. 

Edited July 31, 2016 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

They have pretty spectacularly ruined Michael at this point by basically turning him into a wimp. I mean, granted, they turned Lucifer into a clown but they made Michael "weak" and that is for me bar none the worst and most damning trait you can give a character in fiction. Ever. It`s why I hated all those occurences when the show loves to imply or outright say in fricking dialogue Dean is weak. 

So while once upon a time I would have given anything to see Michael!Dean, it seems unfeasible now. If they wanted to bring in another mythological character - there are still some left - and fabricate a storyline so Jensen gets to play them, by all means, I would love that. I don`t mind possession or something along those lines. This is a genre show, I expect and want those storylines. And I would be greatly interested to see someone looking like Dean but acting completely different. For half a Season at least, mind you, not a measly episode or two.

I would also love supernatural powers or something like that but that seems unlikely now. Though, if Dean doesn`t have them, I don`t want Sam to have them either. Either both get something or both get nothing.   

Now I`m realist enough to know that nothing I want is particularly likely to happen on this show. There is no real set-up or possibility for it and Comic Con painted a picture of "meh" stories.  I believe the mytharc episodes will be a bust this year, it remains to be seen what the newbie, very green writers can bring towards individual MOTW episodes, though. Maybe, unlike the atrocious Season 11 fare, there can be some good ones again like Season 1 and 2.   

[shang yiet]

Sam was supposed to have supernatural powers in the very beginning. Dean, in contrast, was the 'human' one. That was Kripke's vision from the start, like it or not. Why should there be this 'both or nothing' rule?

So if anyone should still have supernatural powers, it should be Sam. I would hate a bait and switch. The writers never provided closure on the whole demon blood issue. Why Max, Ava and Jake could develop powers so fast and not Sam? 

For what it's worth, I had no problem with Dean becoming a demon as long as it gave Sam an active role to play and Dean is welcome to be  possessed by Michael as long as Sam gets an equally good role. And I am keen on Sam/Michael interaction too while Dean is off the screen.

I don't understand the  desire anyway for Dean to be possessed. That would mean the character of Dean disappearing off the screen while someone else takes his place. I disliked Gadreel!Sam and Soulless Sam because they weren't Sam. Lucifer!Sam was exciting but at least Lucifer didn't take over for ten episodes while the character of Sam disappears. The actor may enjoy stretching his acting muscles but I don't care about the actor, I just care about the character he plays.

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

I don't understand the  desire anyway for Dean to be possessed. That would mean the character of Dean disappearing off the screen while someone else takes his place. I disliked Gadreel!Sam and Soulless Sam because they weren't Sam. Lucifer!Sam was exciting but at least Lucifer didn't take over for ten episodes while the character of Sam disappears. The actor may enjoy stretching his acting muscles but I don't care about the actor, I just care about the character he plays.

That's it for me to. I don't want Dean to disappear for a bunch of episodes. Same with Cass/Lucifer, I didn't want them to revisit Lucifer in the first place, but really hated how they used it to make Cass disappear but keep Misha on the show. 

17 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

The writers never provided closure on the whole demon blood issue. Why Max, Ava and Jake could develop powers so fast and not Sam? 

Personally, I hope they don't revisit the demon blood storyline. "What's dead, should stay dead" applies to storylines too, IMO. However, I explain why Sam didn't develop his powers as quickly as some of the other psychic kids by Sam not really ever giving into it like they did. It doesn't solve all the problems, but mostly explains it for me anyway.