Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[catrox14]

I always enjoyed Gordon for being a real anti-hero in this show. He was kind of extreme but I understand it. And I really enjoyed Sterling and Jensen's work together, especially in Bloodlust and Hunted.  So good

[DeeDee79]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I always enjoyed Gordon for being a real anti-hero in this show. He was kind of extreme but I understand it. And I really enjoyed Sterling and Jensen's work together, especially in Bloodlust and Hunted.  So good

Yes! I was actually watching Hunted when I posted. He and Jensen had such good chemistry together in both episodes.

[Bobcatkitten]

Honest question, is there anyone Jensen has played off in Supernatural that he didn't have great chemistry with? 

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Honest question, is there anyone Jensen has played off in Supernatural that he didn't have great chemistry with? 

For me it was the Goat God episode.  (12.18, I think).  I felt like Dean was shoe horned into that episode and even Jensen wasn't feeling it.  It just felt like all Dean scenes were going through the motions. 

[sarthaz]

10 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Honest question, is there anyone Jensen has played off in Supernatural that he didn't have great chemistry with? 

Amara (Emily Swallow)

[Bobcatkitten]

I thought he still had chemistry with Amara, I just found her creepy. That whole storyline was creepy. He was amazing with Cain and Benny.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Honest question, is there anyone Jensen has played off in Supernatural that he didn't have great chemistry with? 

For me, he had no chemistry with actress who played Lisa but then I thought she wasn't very good either. For me, they were unsexy. LOL.  Onthe other hand, Idid think he really clicked for a hot minute with Lisa's friend in season as in actor chemistry. And it was there again when that actress returned to play Elizabeth in s8.

[Bobcatkitten]

I loved Dean with Lisa. I agree it wasn't "hot" chemistry. But they meshed well in their scenes and played off each other. That's what I mean by chemistry. Not sexual chemistry but just bringing out the best in the other actor. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I loved Dean with Lisa. I agree it wasn't "hot" chemistry. But they meshed well in their scenes and played off each other. That's what I mean by chemistry. Not sexual chemistry but just bringing out the best in the other actor. 

I didn't mean sexual chemistry only either. And for me, they didn't bring out the best in each other.  IMO, Jensen gave some of his worst performances with Lisa, which is not saying he was bad but for me they never clicked. It always felt forced and awkward. Now, I will say, if the point was for Dean to have been uncomfortable with Lisa, then they hit that out of the park.  But I don't think that is what they were intending. I never thought there scenes felt "real".

[Bobcatkitten]

Maybe because Dean was never completely sold or settled? If so that's next level acting there ;)

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Honest question, is there anyone Jensen has played off in Supernatural that he didn't have great chemistry with? 

Just my opinion. I'm sure others might disagree:

Anna? I never really felt that they had much in terms of chemistry.

Weirdly, I thought Anna (and the actress who played her) either had more chemistry during her moments when she was alone (she seemed more otherwordly to me that way, I guess) or when she was with Ruby for some reason. I didn't like Ruby or Anna much, but when they interacted together they seemed more, I don't know, interesting? But I'm pretty sure I'm going to be in the minority on that one.

Oh, and maybe Rowena earlier on. I just didn't see much chemistry between them in the beginning - more with Rowena and Sam. That changed for me in "Regarding Dean" when Rowena and Dean had a lot more chemistry. But before that, I wasn't really feeling it.

Maybe Claire too? Again, for me, I think she had more chemistry with Sam.

[Aeryn13]

Lady Deadeyes. Sorry to say but I think the actress is where chemistry goes to die. 

[Bobcatkitten]

My faves that Jensen has worked with are Death, Donna, Billie and Cain. Oh Cain, it's still a shame that there wasn't more than two episodes with him.

[Res]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Just my opinion. I'm sure others might disagree:

Anna? I never really felt that they had much in terms of chemistry.

Weirdly, I thought Anna (and the actress who played her) either had more chemistry during her moments when she was alone (she seemed more otherwordly to me that way, I guess) or when she was with Ruby for some reason. I didn't like Ruby or Anna much, but when they interacted together they seemed more, I don't know, interesting? But I'm pretty sure I'm going to be in the minority on that one.

Oh, and maybe Rowena earlier on. I just didn't see much chemistry between them in the beginning - more with Rowena and Sam. That changed for me in "Regarding Dean" when Rowena and Dean had a lot more chemistry. But before that, I wasn't really feeling it.

Maybe Claire too? Again, for me, I think she had more chemistry with Sam.

I completely agree with this. I was never overly fond of Anna but I thought her chemistry and storyline with Dean was extremely rushed to the determent of both characters. I HATE, HATE, HATE that hookup scene and even shirtless Dean/Jensen can't convince me to rewatch it. 

I also agree with the other two as well.

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, Res said:

I was never overly fond of Anna but I thought her chemistry and storyline with Dean was extremely rushed to the determent of both characters.

Dean was all about casual sex, though.  Provenance, The Magnificent Seven are two examples.

[DeeDee79]

23 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Dean was all about casual sex, though.  Provenance, The Magnificent Seven are two examples.

I took @Res's comment to mean the rushed way that Dean and Anna supposedly bonded, not the fact that he hooked up with her. To me it seemed as though it was played as Dean had feelings for her beyond the casual hookup.

[SueB]

11 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Honest question, is there anyone Jensen has played off in Supernatural that he didn't have great chemistry with? 

The dog-lady familiar in the episode that shall not be named.

 

Who is "Lady Deadeyes"?

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, Res said:

I completely agree with this. I was never overly fond of Anna but I thought her chemistry and storyline with Dean was extremely rushed to the determent of both characters. I HATE, HATE, HATE that hookup scene and even shirtless Dean/Jensen can't convince me to rewatch it. 

I also agree with the other two as well.

I read a review once on this episode that I always think of now, even years later, that talked about this scene. The reviewer mentioned it was like Dean needed an excuse to not have sex, couldn't think of one fast enough with Anna getting all handsy, and just ended up going along for the ride. 

I never liked Anna and am forever grateful that they didn't try to make her a love interest. There were things about her character that disturbed me (i.e. she seemed manipulative), and looking back on S4 as a whole - her telling Dean to go talk to Sam about hell when he was ready is just all kinds of bad advice. I'd even say it was bad advice then, given the way Sam was already acting and his trust in a demon. 

58 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Dean was all about casual sex, though.  Provenance, The Magnificent Seven are two examples.

He wasn't always, i.e. Cassie who left him when he told her the truth. To me, he went with the casual sex route because it meant he didn't have to deal with being left or show who he really was. 

Lisa and Ben were the exceptions and that was due to a forced promise that Sam made him make. At the beginning of S6, I did like them together, TBH. However, I disliked her more as the season went on but that's not a slam on the actress, just how the character was written and the plot of the season. And of course at the end, both she and Ben were used as leverage against Dean, and it almost cost Lisa her life. I don't agree with Dean's decision at all to wipe her mind (it was a terrible, shitty choice that he forced on them), but I do see why he won't have close relationships like that anymore. 

YMMV, of course, but that's just kind of my view on it. 

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Res said:

I was never overly fond of Anna but I thought her chemistry and storyline with Dean was extremely rushed to the determent of both characters. I HATE, HATE, HATE that hookup scene and even shirtless Dean/Jensen can't convince me to rewatch it. 

2 hours ago, Airmid said:

I read a review once on this episode that I always think of now, even years later, that talked about this scene. The reviewer mentioned it was like Dean needed an excuse to not have sex, couldn't think of one fast enough with Anna getting all handsy, and just ended up going along for the ride. 

Agreed. Especially about it feeling rushed towards a supposed connection.

I agree about the hook-up too. I found it somehow... awkward. Like two people who didn't have much experience trying to fumble on through. For me, it almost seemed too tame somehow for two supposedly adventurous and experienced people/beings.

Edited to add: Ohhh - and that scene at the beginning of "The Song Remains the Same." It was like Anna showed up in Dean's dream and I could just feel the chemistry draining away like a wet blanket was thrown over the scene. I mean there's awkward - which the scene was maybe supposed to be I guess - and then there was... that.

Edited August 25, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

He wasn't always, i.e. Cassie who left him when he told her the truth. To me, he went with the casual sex route because it meant he didn't have to deal with being left or show who he really was. 

That still doesn't negate the fact that he certainly wasn't against it and it was not out of character for him to have sex with Anna 2 days after meeting her.

[Airmid]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That still doesn't negate the fact that he certainly wasn't against it and it was not out of character for him to have sex with Anna 2 days after meeting her.

I didn't mean to say that it negated his want for casual sex, just why he seemed to go that way. He did have sex with the waitress from the shifter episode (the one with the love of old movies, too lazy to look up the name). It's just that it seemed like he wasn't always like that, at least to this extent. 

While I always got the impression that Dean did have one night stands quite often, the whole thing with Anna felt out of place. It was weird, and it felt like Dean felt like he was obliged to sleep with her, not that he wanted to. Like, that was what the situation called for and he just decided to play along, whether or not he was into it. I haven't watched it in a while, but I do remember being kind of creeped out instead of 'ooh, sex scene' like I think the writers wanted. 

Well, and the sex scenes with Ruby when Sam was telling his story didn't help the mood at all. 

S4 had a pretty solid arc though I wish they had concentrated on Sam a little more as to why he was doing this and allowing us to get inside his noggin to figure out what was compelling him.

I also wish it had never happened. I know there's a lot of people that like it, but for me, there's just too much negative between Dean's hell trip being ignored (like how in the world does someone come back from 40 years of torture and just function?), and Sam's decline into something that wasn't redeemable, it just started my dislike of certain things that have carried on to other seasons. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Who is "Lady Deadeyes"?

Guessing it's Lady Glad-She's-Dead Toni Bevell.

[Bobcatkitten]

No doubt, Dean likes his flings. I thought the Anna scene was great all around. I bought it. He was surprised she initiated but otherwise I thought he was into it. 

[Airmid]

So, I finally got around to watching the last few episodes of S13. I know, behind but I just have had so little interest in the season outside of some of the MoTW ones. I thought about putting my comments in each episode thread but seeing as I'm bitter and I kind of want to group some things together, this seemed better. Sorry long read, just venting.

AU!Michael - Just don't care. I saw someone's comments about angels being dysfunctional, highly destructive children, and as depressing as it is, that's kind of what it feels like. Playing war because it's what they feel is popular. For AU!Michael, there's just nothing about him. I really like the actor and think he was criminally underused here. I did kind of zone out, so maybe they mentioned just why he destroyed the earth, or why he went into the apocalypse without the true vessels. In fact, making it so the brothers didn't even need to exist to get the war between heaven and hell just diminishes what Dean and Sam had been through for me. Apparently, neither of them had to suffer horrendously and suffer eternal guilt to pop the Cage. All that was needed was a bored archangel that wanted a fight. 

Flipping back a few pages here, I did see that people were excited about Dean!Michael. Honestly, I'm not. This Michael has no real motivation for me, he just is a violent sociopath. That's not even taking into account how far the angels themselves have fallen in the power department. Originally, Michael was the Viceroy of Heaven and had managed to keep things running for who knows how long by himself. He was powerful enough to kill his little brothers with barely a thought or send them away. Archangels like Raphael caused destruction when they took a vessel (S5, the gas station going up), and also cause natural disasters like hurricanes and loss of power to the eastern seaboard when they showed up. Even when Dean was brought back, there was a swath of destruction all around his grave site due to the power of it, and Raphael or Michael descending just a little was shown to be frightening and damaging. Yes, there was that reveal in S8 that angels get retuned against their will, but given that all they do is have petty fights and murder each other by that point, I can totally understand why that stuff was happening, even if it wasn't for good reasons.

Now angels seem more like super humans rather than some vast cosmic force temporarily crammed into flesh that was barely holding on. The massive climatic fight between Michael and Lucifer that was to destroy the world ended up taking place in a church that survived the whole thing and was like sixty seconds long. Sorry Sam, you went to hell and suffered unspeakable torture for decades when all you had to do was get Dean possessed instead and make sure you tossed him a sword at the right time. 

Gabriel coming back - well not a fan. For one it makes Chuck the biggest asshole in the universe. Not only did he just shrug his shoulders at his most loyal son who he completely abandoned still suffering in hell, he also would have known about Gabriel not dying. But he just didn't tell anyone or bother to save him. I wonder if Dean or Sam mentioned to him that God had stopped by and almost died in their house. 

Then the stupidity of any demon being able to withstand angel grace, let alone archangel grace, and then being able to use it. Nope. 

To make it worse, Gabriel then whines at the brothers about his few years of torture when he's trying to get them to help with his revenge plot. What should have happened is that Dean tied him up more and then letting Sam just wail on him for a while. Then Dean could have had a turn while telling him what he did - that Gabriel is in this mess because he left them and ran off. I can get why the Pagans thought Gabriel was the cause of their woes as they probably wouldn't have known that Mercury sold them out to Luci, but really, what did Gabriel expect to happen after the massacre at the hotel?

His death was stupid and pointless. They all should have run towards the rift when Luci went towards Michael. Then they could have closed it and told Jack that Luci stayed and saved them. Plausible deniability guys, learn it. Then on top of that, Gabriel marches off to go confront this Michael who also seems to have a beef with him. Why? Well, we won't ever know why Michael was willing to kill him so quickly. Because that would be backstory and character development and those things take time and thought that our script doesn't have. So the boys just stand there stupidly again while Gabriel dies. They could have run back through the portal and again said that the angels stayed and saved them. But nope, still standing around. Long enough for Luci to actually ask for help and Sam to leave him there - which of course was the wrong decision. 

So Gabriel was a pointless addition that solved little and added nothing, taking away from his apparent heroic sacrifice that he made in S5 to assist the brothers in keeping the world afloat. Not to mention being a giant dick and not caring about what happened to his family.

I did like that the pornstars in his story were both men and women. Nice touch show - appreciated that.

Mary - I just don't like her. This is already getting long and my feelings on Mary might be better in her thread. I just really, really dislike her most of the time. 

During Exodus, at the beginning, I did like Luci's reaction to seeing Gabriel again. That actually was rather humorous. But it begs the question - if Gabriel is still powerful enough to warp reality and help create a roofie that can do in an ancient being, why doesn't he have enough grace again?

Then during that episode, they actually have Cas tell Sam that he understands Sam's feelings about Luci and how being possessed by him was the worst violation. At that point, Dean should have knocked him out, chained him up, and let Sam wail on him for a while. I mean, Cas was supposed to have taken on Sam's crazy a few years ago. He should have known Luci was bad news just from that, but he still said yes even when Sam stood strong and any suffering was on him. Cas should be contrite that it is his fault, and solely his fault, that Luci is out. It's not Sam's (even if he brought Lucifer to Limbo) and it sure as hell isn't Dean's. So, the second episode in a row where I yelling at the screen for Sam to punch someone.

After they met Maggie in Exodus, I got bored and wandered off to go water my plants. I came back to Cas killing himself and Luci driving a bus. I don't feel I missed a whole lot reading the thread, which feels bad. I mean they rescued a couple people apparently and had Luci time, but I don't feel the need to try to rewatch after reading the episode thread. That's, well, that's rather terrible.

To add insult to injury on angels - how does Dean's holy fire trick work when he was trying to stop Michael in the finale? Do archangels not have the ability to shuffle a few feet to either side and merely go around something? It just adds to my distaste on how disappointing Michael is here. I mean, he can destroy with a flick of his wrist, Naomi confirms that heaven was responsible for things like the plagues of Egypt in S8 in our world. So, why doesn't he just send a plague to earth? Or make it stop raining, or cause an ice age, or any other number of well thought out plans? Or hell, just finding the humans, descending without a vessel and murdering each camp as he floats along. Is playing with maps and little army men that engaging?

TL;DR - I am so unexcited for the upcoming season. At this point, it feels like I'm watching a campy soap opera instead of a horror show with supernatural and some fantasy elements to it. I look back at something like S1's Shifter episode. Even for the first season, it's dark, it's disturbing, and it hints to a world of trouble for the brothers. Or S4 Lazuras Rising, when Cas seems otherworldly and truly threatening. And then I see this kind of thing, where three archangels are standing around, chatting, before a little footwork and one gets a sword to the chest. 

Sorry for the long rant, I just feel frustrated and weirdly let down. I honestly don't know if I can stomach the next season. I will say though that I do look forward to the threads here, as I enjoy reading about a show that I still for unknown reasons care about after all these years and the well thought out comments of all of you. 

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Airmid said:

They all should have run towards the rift when Luci went towards Michael. Then they could have closed it and told Jack that Luci stayed and saved them. Plausible deniability guys, learn it.

I am on board with pretty much your whole post. So much wasted potential. *sigh* 

Just one thing to this point. I do think Sam deserved his moment with Lucifer,  and if Michael had ended him there it would have been awesome. But once again they rendered the moment useless and the (my) emotional impact gone. 

[Airmid]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I am on board with pretty much your whole post. So much wasted potential. *sigh* 

Just one thing to this point. I do think Sam deserved his moment with Lucifer,  and if Michael had ended him there it would have been awesome. But once again they rendered the moment useless and the (my) emotional impact gone. 

I am totally pro Sam having his time to kick Luci to the curb (and what he thought would be his death). I just wish they hadn't had the cast hit by a stupid stick to make it happen or to completely undermine Sam's strength here by Luci popping out like an hour later. They just kept standing there when escape was totally possible and safety was a few steps away.

Now if it had been something like Dean and Cas in Purgatory, where Luci is holding onto Sam and Sam, instead of trying to save him like Dean did for Cas, pushes Satan back, condemning him there in a tense situation, I would be totally behind that. Would have been the best part of the whole damn thing. 

I also just remembered that in that scene Gabriel says some dumb stuff about how he is always running as he marches off to go confront Michael. Uh, well, right now, running towards the glowing thing is the best option, Gabe. In fact, it would have been really good as he could have returned to their heaven and stabilized it - meaning that he would have saved the brothers, ditched Satan, and done some good. 

[DittyDotDot]

On 8/23/2018 at 7:01 PM, DeeDee79 said:

I'm watching season 2 ( again! ) and I have what may be an unpopular opinion: I don't hate Gordon. He's absolutely paranoid and cutthroat but he's also somewhat sympathetic. When you take away his fixation on Sam it's not hard to see where he's coming from. With his backstory in regards to his sister's kidnapping and subsequent turning by vampires you can kinda understand his motivation and his inability to see beyond black and white with whether or not monsters deserve to live or should be put down immediately. He's not likable but his character is intriguing. It's largely due to Sterling Brown's portrayal IMO.

Yeah, I always think of Gordon as just being an extremist, as a few hunters we met early on were shown--one of the main reasons Dean was so worried about other hunters learning about Sam having those psychic powers. But back to Gordon, he wasn't actually wrong about Sam--and monsters in general--just took his actions too far in dealing with them. And, it totally made sense for his character. I was sad they couldn't keep him on the show a bit more, even though it was great Sterling had found other work. 

On 8/24/2018 at 7:49 AM, Bobcatkitten said:

Honest question, is there anyone Jensen has played off in Supernatural that he didn't have great chemistry with? 

I never felt like he had chemistry with the actress who played Cassie. But, then again, I don't care for the actress and don't feel like she has chemistry with anyone in anything I've seen her in. And, as with @AwesomO4000, I didn't think Jensen and Julie McNiven (Anna) had any chemistry either, but I think the actress has had good chemistry in other projects I've seen her in. 

Other than that, I can't think of anyone that didn't seem to click well on-screen with Jensen. He just seems to be one of those actors.

[devlin]

Reading about the latest con I am beginning to think they need fewer cons coz some of the questions are getting ridiculous. I feel sorry for Jensen and his fans having to sit through questions revolving around jared’s hair! Like seriously you get the chance to ask your favourite actors questions and you choose to waste the time discussing hair and drooling over a single scene from 7 years ago 

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, devlin said:

Reading about the latest con I am beginning to think they need fewer cons coz some of the questions are getting ridiculous. I feel sorry for Jensen and his fans having to sit through questions revolving around jared’s hair! Like seriously you get the chance to ask your favourite actors questions and you choose to waste the time discussing hair and drooling over a single scene from 7 years ago 

That does sound ridiculous. I wonder if it's partly due to younger fans that have just been exposed to the show via streaming services who are still focused on the pretty as opposed to the content. Then again in that case Jensen's fans should comment on the scenes with the most freckle exposure, angles that showcased the bowlegs most prominently, etc. if we're going to go that route!

[Casseiopeia]

10 minutes ago, devlin said:

Reading about the latest con I am beginning to think they need fewer cons coz some of the questions are getting ridiculous. I feel sorry for Jensen and his fans having to sit through questions revolving around jared’s hair! Like seriously you get the chance to ask your favourite actors questions and you choose to waste the time discussing hair and drooling over a single scene from 7 years ago 

Creation did announce that Supernatural would be reducing the number of conventions next year.  I am not sure which ones they are dropping.

[Myrelle]

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 8:49 AM, Bobcatkitten said:

Honest question, is there anyone Jensen has played off in Supernatural that he didn't have great chemistry with? 

Not to me.

I loved him with Emily Swallow. I think that Julie McNiven was given a raw deal in that she had to follow behind all of that electricity that was generated by those early Dean and Cas scenes.

I think he helped Ruth Connell to up her game immensely after that one episode when Rowena tried to kill Dean in the pool hall. Up until that point, I couldn't stand the Rowena. And her best episode of the series for me has been Regarding Dean up to this point in time.

Same with the actress who played Lisa. I only disliked Lisa when Gamble(as showrunner) really got her hooks into her S6.

I even thought that Dean and Cassie had great sexual chemistry even while I, too, found the actress completely wanting in every other facet of her acting in Route 666.

I've loved watching him best with actors like Timothy O, Robert Wisdom, Robert Englund, Dee Wallace Stone, and Amanda Tapping, just off the top of my head. And his torture scene with Alastair highlighted by that "sensual hatred" that the two characters shared was one of the most amazing examples of that kind of chemistry that I've ever seen on a screen anywhere or at any time, bar none.

And his chemistry with MC and Mark Sheppard has often been the best thing about this show for me-especially when it's been allowed to flourish to it's fullest by the writing.

As for lesser known actors/actresses-I loved him with Carmen from WIAWSNB and yes, with Elizabeth from Citizen Fang; the public defender from Folsom Prison Blues and Deputy Kathleen from The Benders. And Ketch and AU Michael and on and on...

So yeah, I have no complaints whatsoever within the chemistry dept. where it concerns JA/Dean and any other actor/character on this show. Others, yes, but not Jensen. Guess that's what makes me an EDG/EJAG of the first order/degree, I suppose. ;-)

[DeeDee79]

15 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Not to me.

I loved him with Emily Swallow. I think that Julie McNiven was given a raw deal in that she had to follow behind all of that electricity that was generated by those early Dean and Cas scenes.

I think he helped Ruth Connell to up her game immensely after that one episode when Rowena tried to kill Dean in the pool hall. Up until that point, I couldn't stand the Rowena. And her best episode of the series for me has been Regarding Dean up to this point in time.

Same with the actress who played Lisa. I only disliked Lisa when Gamble(as showrunner) really got her hooks into her S6.

I even thought that Dean and Cassie had great sexual chemistry even while I, too, found the actress completely wanting in every other facet of her acting in Route 666.

I've loved watching him best with actors like Timothy O, Robert Wisdom, Robert Englund, Dee Wallace Stone, and Amanda Tapping, just off the top of my head. And his torture scene with Alastair highlighted by that "sensual hatred" that the two characters shared was one of the most amazing examples of that kind of chemistry that I've ever seen on a screen anywhere or at any time, bar none.

And his chemistry with MC and Mark Sheppard has often been the best thing about this show for me-especially when it's been allowed to flourish to it's fullest by the writing.

As for lesser known actors/actresses-I loved him with Carmen from WIAWSNB and yes, with Elizabeth from Citizen Fang; the public defender from Folsom Prison Blues and Deputy Kathleen from The Benders. And Ketch and AU Michael and on and on...

So yeah, I have no complaints whatsoever within the chemistry dept. where it concerns JA/Dean and any other actor/character on this show. Others, yes, but not Jensen. Guess that's what makes me an EDG/EJAG of the first order/degree, I suppose. ;-)

I agree with every word! I'd just like to add Charles Malik Whitfied, Ty Olsson and Amy Gumenick ( young Mary ) to that list. For the last IMO his chemistry is way better than it is with Samantha Smith.

[Myrelle]

40 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I'd just like to add Charles Malik Whitfied, Ty Olsson and Amy Gumenick ( young Mary ) to that list. For the last IMO his chemistry is way better than it is with Samantha Smith.

ITA. And I'd add that, IMO, his greatest acting challenge in the chemistry dept. might have come in S12 when he had to make something great out of those words he had for Mother Mary in the finale of that season, especially after all he had to put up with from her during that season of her resurrection. And he came through with flying colors again. Many of us in the fandom, might still not love her or hold her in any great esteem any longer(thanks for that writers, <insert sarcasm here>), but from Jensen's performance in that scene, some can still see why Dean would have still wanted her in his life, at this point in the story.

The Ackting in that scene, and the one this season with her when he had to tell her that Sam had died on his watch in the AU-these are the kind of scenes that make me feel that he's the most under-rated actor in Hollywood, at this point in time.  

[Res]

11 hours ago, Myrelle said:

ITA. And I'd add that, IMO, his greatest acting challenge in the chemistry dept. might have come in S12 when he had to make something great out of those words he had for Mother Mary in the finale of that season, especially after all he had to put up with from her during that season of her resurrection. And he came through with flying colors again. Many of us in the fandom, might still not love her or hold her in any great esteem any longer(thanks for that writers, <insert sarcasm here>), but from Jensen's performance in that scene, some can still see why Dean would have still wanted her in his life, at this point in the story.

The Ackting in that scene, and the one this season with her when he had to tell her that Sam had died on his watch in the AU-these are the kind of scenes that make me feel that he's the most under-rated actor in Hollywood, at this point in time.  

I totally agree but count me as a viewer who couldn't careless about Mary at this point which is tremendously bad considering she (or her death, rather) is the primary motivation for the main characters for most of their childhood. I used to love Mary as a little known character, even after I found out about the deal (because I could understand how that happened and her POV at the time). Now, though, I'd much prefer if she joined the WS in their eventual spin-off that will make up more of our normal SPN episodes now. And none of those actresses can really overcome the horrible writing and fanpandering anymore for me. Only Jensen can and the more I hear, the less it seems we will see of them. I might be spending a lot of time on Twitter just for spite. (hehe) If RL isn't getting in the way at the time, which it always is. 

Anxiously awaiting Jensen's next gig which hopefully he will be the main star of.

[DeeDee79]

38 minutes ago, Res said:

Anxiously awaiting Jensen's next gig which hopefully he will be the main star of.

I'm also waiting for this!

[Pondlass1]

13 hours ago, Res said:

love Mary as a little known character, even after I found out about the deal (because I could understand how that happened and her POV at the time).

I still don't understand.  She did the 10 year deal with the YED to resurrect John.  Dean even gave her the exact date.  Yet she still did nothing.  And her being a super duper hunter and all.  

 I know it's a tired old debate.  When the pilot was written they had no idea how things would evolve.  But you'd think they'd come up with an answer by now.  That night in the nursery was her own fault.  Even if she could do nothing - she should at least have tried.  And wouldn't Dean ask why she didn't heed his warning?  Or was Dean's time-trip a mere dream instigated by Cas ... ??????

I get so confused with this show sometimes....

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Dean even gave her the exact date.

That got wiped.  At the end of The Song Remains the Same, Michael erased all memories relating to Dean in both that epi and In the Beginning from Mary and John.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

That got wiped.  At the end of The Song Remains the Same, Michael erased all memories relating to Dean in both that epi and In the Beginning from Mary and John.

I'll never agree with this. There is no evidence that the original visit was wiped, IMO.

[Lemuria]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

That got wiped.  At the end of The Song Remains the Same, Michael erased all memories relating to Dean in both that epi and In the Beginning from Mary and John.

Which is why I don't blame her for not remembering what Dean told her.  However, since we have now been told that, instead of hating hunting (as we were told in ITB), she stayed on as a super-duper (well, in the telling, not the showing) hunter, I totally blame her for not warding her house up the wazoo.  Maybe it wouldn't have work against Azazel.  Maybe it would have.

We won't know because Mary has turned out to be a total idiot.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Lemuria said:

We won't know because Mary has turned out to be a total idiot.

Maybe this explains it.

She has all the warmth of a Cyborg anyway.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Which is why I don't blame her for not remembering what Dean told her.  However, since we have now been told that, instead of hating hunting (as we were told in ITB), she stayed on as a super-duper (well, in the telling, not the showing) hunter, I totally blame her for not warding her house up the wazoo.  Maybe it wouldn't have work against Azazel.  Maybe it would have.

We won't know because Mary has turned out to be a total idiot.

 

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe this explains it.

She has all the warmth of a Cyborg anyway.

Indeed-to both of these posts.

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

However, since we have now been told that, instead of hating hunting (as we were told in ITB), she stayed on as a super-duper (well, in the telling, not the showing) hunter,

I agree that she should have warded the house, but we have absolutely not been told this. We have seen that she expressed hatred toward hunting in her late teens. We have also seen that she then went on at least one hunt during her marriage to John. That's it. 

People can have competing impulses, and people can have different priorities at different times. It doesn't seem that Mary was anything like a full-time hunter between the ages of 19-29; from flashbacks, it would appear that she was more or less living the domestic life. That's not, IMO, incompatible with a combination of circumstances and her own emotional issues sometimes leading her back to hunting during that period. 

Sam also left hunting and came back. Even if YED hadn't forced him back into the game, I wouldn't find it inconsistent if Sam had married Jessica and become a lawyer but also taken on a few hunts in secret on very rare occasions. Similarly, if several people at Stanford had died in an incident that had all the signs of a classic haunting, I would have expected Sam to do something about it. 

The problem I have with Mary's backstory, aside from the fact that she should have been making some efforts to protect her house, is that it makes no sense that she would be presented in the present day as a hunter extraordinaire based on what we know of her past. 

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

That got wiped.  At the end of The Song Remains the Same, Michael erased all memories relating to Dean in both that epi and In the Beginning from Mary and John.

I'm not sure where you're getting that Dean's visit to Mary in s3 in the past was a memory Michael erased.
 

Quote

 

From Song Remains the Same:

Michael: Better than new. In fact, I'm gonna do your mom and your dad a favor.

DEAN
What?

MICHAEL
Scrub their minds. They won't remember me or you.

DEAN
You can't do that.

MICHAEL
I'm just giving your mother what she wants. She can go back to her husband, her family—

DEAN
She's gonna walk right into that nursery!

MICHAEL
Obviously.

 

He couldn't have erased her memories from making the deal with Azazel because she said, quite clearly" in s2, "It's you" to Azazel. She recognized him.  If it were a complete memory wipe she wouldn't have recognized him at all. And I don't think the show intended for it to be understood that Michael erased her memories of making the deal nor Azazel between the time she made the deal and when Azazel returned.

Mary could have actively/subconsciously repressed her own memory of Azazel and making the deal for 10 years, and ignore her hunting skills, except that one time after Dean was born(but that seems really unlikely that she only hunted that one time that happened to be Asa Fox), and it was shown that with some help from drugs in s12, and her own capacity for denial when she stayed in her own headspace and couldn't face Dean in 12.22. 

 

ETA: Maybe Mary was using drugs herself between the deal and Azazel coming back. I would actually accept that was an answer for her apparent erratic behavior and lying to John.  I really would.  I am also not saying she was. Just a little headcanon of mine that would tie it up LOL

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'll never agree with this. There is no evidence that the original visit was wiped, IMO.

Except that Mary said in Keep Calm with Carry On that she doesn't remember meeting him in the past.  And, Michael said that he wiped their memories and since Michael's aim was so that Mary wouldn't prevent the deal, I see no reason why he wouldn't include the first visit.

 

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He couldn't have erased her memories from making the deal with Azazel because she said, quite clearly" in s2, "It's you" to Azazel. She recognized him.  If it were a complete memory wipe she wouldn't have recognized him at all. And I don't think the show intended for it to be understood that Michael erased her memories of making the deal nor Azazel between the time she made the deal and when Azazel returned.

I didn't say he erased her memory of Azazel.  Just of Dean.  And that seemed to have been verified by Mary herself in Keep Calm and Carry On.  Unless you think she was lying?

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

I didn't say he erased her memory of Azazel.  Just of Dean.  And that seemed to have been verified by Mary herself in Keep Calm and Carry On.  Unless you think she was lying?

 

Mary was just resurrected. It's possible she didn't remember much of anything at that time. And yes, I could see her lying about not remembering meeting Dean if she was repressing all her memories. But I would argue that if Mary remembered Azazel in s2 then she should have remembered Dean as well but that is something Kripke never addressed again really.

Of course if they had never resurrected Mary at all, none of this matters LOL but they did so the onus is now on the current showrunners to make the continuity work. And ....it doesn't without Mary looking terrible. IMO

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But I would argue that if Mary remembered Azazel in s2 then she should have remembered Dean as well but that is something Kripke never addressed again really.

I don't know that that's true.  Cas wiped Dean from Lisa and Ben's memories,but he couldn't have possibly erased all the stuff that happened the three times that she knew him from, especially since the last time was over a year.  So, obviously angels have very specific memory removing powers.  LOL.

[gonzosgirrl]

32 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Except that Mary said in Keep Calm with Carry On that she doesn't remember meeting him in the past.  And, Michael said that he wiped their memories and since Michael's aim was so that Mary wouldn't prevent the deal, I see no reason why he wouldn't include the first visit.

 

I didn't say he erased her memory of Azazel.  Just of Dean.  And that seemed to have been verified by Mary herself in Keep Calm and Carry On.  Unless you think she was lying?

I don't think she was lying, I think the (current) writers suck. They can ignore canon all they want, but I don't think it was implied that both visits were wiped, at all. If Dean's visit didn't happen, why did John have the Impala? And the deal happened while Dean watched. It was too late to prevent it. Maybe in all the ensuing trauma/drama, she forgot about Dean's plea, or maybe she just brushed it off as weirdness. Or maybe she remembered and just stuck her head in the sand. But I don't believe the mind wipe was retroactive.

Edited August 29, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think she was lying, I think the (current) writers suck. They can ignore canon all they want, but I don't think it was implied that both visits were wiped, at all. If Dean's visit didn't happen, why did John have the Impala?

No one said the visits didn't happen, just Mary's memories of them.  And since John at that time only knew the stranger as "Dean Van Halen" (and especially since he didn't actually meet him again till TSRTS) there was no reason to wipe John's memory of Dean's visit.  

I think it was stated outright that at least the last visit was wiped *from John and Mary's minds* (per Michael's lines quoted above).  I think it was also implied that the earlier visit to Mary was wiped as well, but I understand that others might see it differently.  YMMV, and AtD.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

No one said the visits didn't happen, just Mary's memories of them.  And since John at that time only knew the stranger as "Dean Van Halen" (and especially since he didn't actually meet him again till TSRTS) there was no reason to wipe John's memory of Dean's visit.  

I think it was stated outright that at least the last visit was wiped *from John and Mary's minds* (per Michael's lines quoted above).  I think it was also implied that the earlier visit to Mary was wiped as well, but I understand that others might see it differently.  YMMV, and AtD.

I agree the events of TSRTS were wiped, which is when it's revealed to Mary that these are her sons. But prior to that, she only knew Dean Van Halen, and I don't believe that visit  (ITB) was wiped. There was nothing in the story to make me even lean that way until LOL!Canon Mary came along. Enough bad shit happened after Dean Van Halen's warning to maybe believe she forgot that, if I'm being generous to the character. But given the givens, I just don't.

Edited August 29, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think she was lying, I think the (current) writers suck. They can ignore canon all they want, but I don't think it was implied that both visits were wiped, at all. If Dean's visit didn't happen, why did John have the Impala?

Nobody said that it didn't happen.  Just that Michael wiped it from their memories.  And TBH, I understood it to mean wiping Dean completely from their memories (including the In the Beginning) visit back when Michael originally said it in S5.  So, I don't feel like Mary not remembering is canon being igorned, but canon being honored for once.  Of course it happened.  Samuel and Deanna were both still dead.  The deal with YED still happened.  John still had the Impala.  Mary and John just don't remember Dean being there.