Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[DittyDotDot]

I always though Sera's comment about the epic love story of Sam and Dean was both funny and true and I don't think it did anything to get people to romanticize Sam and Dean, literally. Shippers are going to ship and I think that ship sailed before Sera made the comment, myself.

19 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Hey correct me if i'm wrong because i'm no expert but isn't Supernatural supposed to mimic my favorite book growing up, "On the Road."  Two guys (Dean moriarty and Sal paradise) crisscross America, in a vintage car searching for God and Freedom (free will).  They replace the shackles of domestic life and traditional work (apple pie life)  with male brotherhood and bonding as a substitute for the nuclear family, white picket fence and regular employment (law school).  In the book, Dean (Neal Cassady) is the one who drives the car all the time, has a temper, drinks too much etc. .  They listen to Jazz (a 1950's version of classic rock and roll).  There are so many parallels between On the Road and Supernatural that the Kerouac estate probably should've sued Kripke.  But my point is that it's a book about the male bonds of friendship and brotherhood, not necessarily a love story.  They even get away with using the mixed name Sal Moriarty in Swan Song as the guy who first buys Baby..  Sorry for the book report.  That's just always the way I saw the show

There were many influences on Kripke in developing the show--Kolchack, American Gods, Dogma, Frailty--but this is the first time I've heard this book being an influence. Sounds like it would be right up Kripke's alley, though.

Edited January 11, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[bozodegama]

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I always though Sera's comment about the epic love story of Sam and Dean was both funny and true and I don't think it did anything to get people to romanticize Sam and Dean, literally. Shippers are going to ship and I think that ship sailed before Sera made the comment, myself.

There were many influences on Kripke in developing the show--Kolchack, American Gods, Dogma, Frailty--but this is the first time I've heard this book being an influence. Sounds like it would be right up Kripke's alley, though.

Yeah, don't forget the x-files.  Supernatural used a lot from that show.  But i'm pretty sure Supernatural is a direct take off of On The Road, at least the first five years of the show.  It was a huge influence on Baby Boomers and on Dylan and Jerry Garcia.  

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Hey correct me if i'm wrong because i'm no expert but isn't Supernatural supposed to mimic my favorite book growing up, "On the Road."  Two guys (Dean moriarty and Sal paradise) crisscross America, in a vintage car searching for God and Freedom (free will).  They replace the shackles of domestic life and traditional work (apple pie life)  with male brotherhood and bonding as a substitute for the nuclear family, white picket fence and regular employment (law school).  In the book, Dean (Neal Cassady) is the one who drives the car all the time, has a temper, drinks too much etc. .  They listen to Jazz (a 1950's version of classic rock and roll).  There are so many parallels between On the Road and Supernatural that the Kerouac estate probably should've sued Kripke.**  But my point is that it's a book about the male bonds of friendship and brotherhood, not necessarily a love story.  They even get away with using the mixed name Sal Moriarty in Swan Song as the guy who first buys Baby..  Sorry for the book report.  That's just always the way I saw the show

They don't have to sue Kripke. He's acknowledged openly that is what he based it on in large part.

**In addition, Neal Cassady was bisexual with wife and kids and had a 20 year romantic relationship with Allen Ginsberg.

Quote

ady in 1947, while she worked in Denver, Colorado as a teaching assistant.[9] LuAnne would leave the Beat group shortly after walking in on Neal, Carolyn, and Allen Ginsberg in bed together. Five weeks after LuAnne's departure, Neal got an annulment from LuAnne and married Carolyn, on April 1, 1948. Carolyn's book, Off the Road: Twenty Years with Cassady, Kerouac and Ginsberg (1990), details her marriage to Cassady and recalls him as, "the archetype of the American Man".[10] Cassady's sexual relationship with Ginsberg lasted off and on for the next 20 years.[11]

Dean Winchester has the drinking, multiple relationships but no wives and children that we know of, and no cheating. And thus far a 9 year friendship with Castiel. Clearly they altered and adapted certain things with Dean W, like the cheating and bigamy didn't happen that we know of, so maybe it was decided that Dean Moriarty/Neal Cassady's bisexuality would just not be put on screen but maybe it's in the subtext that a lot of viewers see. Not trying to start a war, just saying it's interesting to consider.  I don't know what to think.  

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

here were many influences on Kripke in developing the show--Kolchack, American Gods, Dogma, Frailty--but this is the first time I've heard this book being an influence. Sounds like it would be right up Kripke's alley, though.

I've mentioned that in this forum before. Oh well. I guess not all my comments are remembered! Dammit! LOL

[auntvi]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I used to be a big fan of the brotherly bond (although I’ve never shipped Winchester), but I’d say I’ve been watching the show since season 8 in spite of the brotherly bond. 

I agree - and we don't have to agree if one's worse that the other. The almost constant conflict & dysfunction from s. 8 through s. 10 wore me out.

[Wayward Son]

15 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I agree - and we don't have to agree if one's worse that the other. The almost constant conflict & dysfunction from s. 8 through s. 10 wore me out.

I’m pretty much the same. Without getting into bitch vs Jerk territory, because this is more a reflection on their relationships nature than the boys themselves, after watching a series of events which include Dean forcing possession on Sam or Sam knowingly condemning thousands to death, through breaking the mark,  “their bond” is my least favourite thing about the brothers. 

 

Since theyre meant to be the heroes of this show then I want to see them be heroic! I don’t want to see them grossly violating each other or condemning thousands to death out of a selfish need to save one man who happens to be important to them. 

 

I think I tolerated the less positive aspects of their relationship when the show began because I had hopes that the character would grow and become more healthy, but alas that ship sailed long ago. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Wayward Son

[auntvi]

27 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Since theyre meant to be the heroes of this show then I want to see them be heroic! I don’t want to see them grossly violating each other or condemning thousands to death out of a selfish need to save one man who happens to be important to them. 

Yes! They certainly don't need to be perfect to be heroic. Flawed characters are compelling, disagreements are interesting. Please just no more paralyzing codependency!

[bozodegama]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

They don't have to sue Kripke. He's acknowledged openly that is what he based it on in large part.

**In addition, Neal Cassady was bisexual with wife and kids and had a 20 year romantic relationship with Allen Ginsberg.

Dean Winchester has the drinking, multiple relationships but no wives and children that we know of, and no cheating. And thus far a 9 year friendship with Castiel. Clearly they altered and adapted certain things with Dean W, like the cheating and bigamy didn't happen that we know of, so maybe it was decided that Dean Moriarty/Neal Cassady's bisexuality would just not be put on screen but maybe it's in the subtext that a lot of viewers see. Not trying to start a war, just saying it's interesting to consider.  I don't know what to think.  

I've mentioned that in this forum before. Oh well. I guess not all my comments are remembered! Dammit! LOL

Yeah i wasn’t talking about Dean Winchester being based on Neal Cassidy, the actual guy, just Loosely based on Dean Moriarty, the character in the book.  I don’t remember Dean Moriarty being bisexual in the book i read in the 70’s but there was some strange subtext going on.   Obviously Dean W is not like Neal Cassidy.  Neil Cassidy was kind of a maniac, a speed freak who drove the bus for the merry pranksters and The Grateful Dead, i believe.  I cant see Dean Winchester doing that.  Question though, if Kripke said he’s basing Supernatural loosely on On The Road, he doesn’t have to pay royalties for that?  I know you do in music, there’s songwriting royalties but i don’t know about tv. I thought the book was required reading for high school English literature but that was 40 years ago when i went to high school. 

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Obviously Dean W is not like Neal Cassidy.  Neil Cassidy was kind of a maniac, a speed freak who drove the bus for the merry pranksters and The Grateful Dead, i believe.  I cant see Dean Winchester doing that.

Really? I totally could see it.

10 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Question though, if Kripke said he’s basing Supernatural loosely on On The Road, he doesn’t have to pay royalties for that?

Well, it wasn't based on On the Road, but it may have had an influence on Kripke while developing the series. Which, as I said before, there are many influences Kripke has stated. But, Kripke's original idea was basically Kolchak meets American Gods--a reporter on the road hunting down urban legends and folklore. The network passed on the reporter idea, but said they liked the idea of urban legends...and Kripke pulled the idea of the brothers out of his ass. The show wasn't really originally imagined to be about family and brotherhood, just urban legends, more than anything. Funny how things  develop, isn't it?

Anyway, you don't pay royalties for influences, only direct copying. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[Res]

6 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m pretty much the same. Without getting into bitch vs Jerk territory, because this is more a reflection on their relationships nature than the boys themselves, after watching a series of events which include Dean forcing possession on Sam or Sam knowingly condemning thousands to death, through breaking the mark,  “their bond” is my least favourite thing about the brothers. 

 

Since theyre meant to be the heroes of this show then I want to see them be heroic! I don’t want to see them grossly violating each other or condemning thousands to death out of a selfish need to save one man who happens to be important to them. 

 

I think I tolerated the less positive aspects of their relationship when the show began because I had hopes that the character would grow and become more healthy, but alas that ship sailed long ago. 

I agree which is why it is revolting IMO that some want to romanticize such a destructive, abusive relationship. I think the brothers individually are good men and can be very heroic but together is iffy as all get out. For instance, I would definitely trust one of them to get me out of danger if the other one wasn't in the equation but, if Sam's life, or Dean's life, was in the balance, I wouldn't trust the other to get me out safely. As was stated above, hundreds to thousands have already been killed more than once while one brother was trying to save the other. That is not something that I find very heroic or something to root for, especially if you aren't want of the people that in their secret circle. Some times even being in that circle will save you (RIP Kevin).

 

This is why I'd really like for it to get away from the stupid IMO brother bond crap and actually get back to just saving people from the supernatural. At this point, the show really feels like The Young and the Restless crossed with Sliders and a side of the Facts of Life about to spin-off on its own. These are Different Strokes that I didn't need. JMO YMMV. 

[companionenvy]

5 hours ago, Res said:

I agree which is why it is revolting IMO that some want to romanticize such a destructive, abusive relationship. I think the brothers individually are good men and can be very heroic but together is iffy as all get out. For instance, I would definitely trust one of them to get me out of danger if the other one wasn't in the equation but, if Sam's life, or Dean's life, was in the balance, I wouldn't trust the other to get me out safely.

I don't think calling the perspective of a certain group of fans "revolting" is helpful here, even if you add "IMO."

One thing that weighs heavily in my judgment of the brothers is that many of the most destructive consequences of their actions were not foreseeable. Dean trading his soul for Sam was an incredibly emotionally messed up thing to do, but he couldn't possibly have anticipated that this would have far-reaching consequences. Similarly, while Dean not telling Sam that he had allowed Gadreel to save him was a gross violation, Kevin's death would not have been a foreseeable result of that decision. Even Sam using the Book of the Damned, which probably comes closest, off the top of my head, to one brother looking out for the other while recklessly disregarding the safety of others, isn't a case in which he could have reasonably anticipated the extent of the risk he was taking. The spell he was doing was intended to remove the mark. No one had any notion that the mark was holding back some kind of primordial Darkness.

The one time that comes to mind that they consciously chose each other over the world was when they decided not to close the gates of hell, and that situation seems to me more ambiguous. Closing the gates may have been the more heroic thing to do, but the question of whether or not Sam was obligated to martyr himself in that situation is a pretty complex one, ethically speaking. It is a variation on the old thought experiment: would it be OK to kill a person if you had a guarantee that their body contained the cure for cancer? If you were that person, would you be morally obligated to allow this? Even if the answer is yes, how many people would actually agree to this for themselves or a loved one?  Maybe the hero would, but "hero" isn't a stable characteristic; one can be a hero in many situations without acting heroically all the time.  On a more practical level, It also isn't necessarily obvious that closing the gates would have proven to be a good thing - changing the cosmic order in that way strikes me as a terribly dicey proposition.

On the question of feeling safe that the Winchesters would save me if one of their lives were on the line -- I wouldn't, but I don't think that's an indictment of the Winchesters. Again, it comes down to what you think their moral obligation is. The brothers routinely put their own lives at risk to save others, which is pretty damn heroic. It is not something they are obligated to do, any more than those of us in the normal world are obligated to go into dangerous, life-saving professions.  That's why we consider the people that do choose this heroes. But again, heroism isn't an all or nothing proposition. Even in professions where people risk their lives, there's a certain threshhold of what constitutes reasonable risks that they are expected to assume.  Even if someone were willing to voluntarily go beyond that expectation,  that's a choice one might well be a lot more comfortable making for oneself than for a loved one. Saying that the Winchesters are willing to assume an extraordinarily high level of risk, but not to court certain death for each other in every circumstance doesn't, IMO, preclude them from being good men and heroes.

[Bobcatkitten]

Questions for you all - are you bothered by the Wayward women "saving" Sam and Dean in the upcoming episode? I am seeing some people be very annoyed by it and it just seems like not a big deal to me. They are human. What's wrong with them needing help sometimes? I can't count the number of times they have been knocked out and tied up. Other people have aided them before. Why is it a problem for the Wayward sisters to do so? P.S. this is coming from someone who is pretty ambivalent to the spinoff. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

Questions for you all - are you bothered by the Wayward women "saving" Sam and Dean in the upcoming episode? I am seeing some people be very annoyed by it and it just seems like not a big deal to me. They are human. What's wrong with them needing help sometimes? I can't count the number of times they have been knocked out and tied up. Other people have aided them before. Why is it a problem for the Wayward sisters to do so? P.S. this is coming from someone who is pretty ambivalent to the spinoff. 

FWIW: There is discussion about this in the WS spoiler thread that you might find relevant

[ILoveReading]

17 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

Questions for you all - are you bothered by the Wayward women "saving" Sam and Dean in the upcoming episode? I am seeing some people be very annoyed by it and it just seems like not a big deal to me. They are human. What's wrong with them needing help sometimes? I can't count the number of times they have been knocked out and tied up. Other people have aided them before. Why is it a problem for the Wayward sisters to do so? P.S. this is coming from someone who is pretty ambivalent to the spinoff. 

Moving my response to the bitter spoilers thread because my answer contains a spoiler for the upcoming ep

Edited January 12, 2018 by ILoveReading

[companionenvy]

8 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

 

Questions for you all - are you bothered by the Wayward women "saving" Sam and Dean in the upcoming episode? I am seeing some people be very annoyed by it and it just seems like not a big deal to me. They are human. What's wrong with them needing help sometimes? I can't count the number of times they have been knocked out and tied up. Other people have aided them before. Why is it a problem for the Wayward sisters to do so? P.S. this is coming from someone who is pretty ambivalent to the spinoff. 

 

I didn't like the promo, but it doesn't bother me as long as they don't frame it as "look how totes awesome these women are! They could show Sam and Dean's a thing or two!"

There's a great Buffy episode where Buffy, shaken after a close call on a routine mission, asks the vampire Spike, who has killed two previous slayers, ( and who is kind of a frenemy at this point), to tell her about how he got the jump on the other slayers. He winds up telling her, essentially, that as a slayer, she needs to be "on" all the time. All he or another monster needs is one lucky day. What I loved about that logic is that it explains why the strongest character can plausibly be saved, now and then, by the weakest, or be in real danger from vamp extra number 6. All it takes is a fall in the wrong moment, and you're dead. Unless, in certain cases, someone else -- even a much less competent someone -- comes in with a shotgun loaded with salt at that same moment. 

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

For me personally, it isn't that Sam and Dean need help.  It's that the help is coming in the form untrained teenagers.  It's the fact that they're making the guys do things they wouldn't normally do to set up the situation.  Sam and Dean have been in the business a long time but we (the audience) is supposed to believe that the only person they can call for help is a teenage psychic who has no control over her powers and who Dean warned away from hunting?

That promo shows how easily Sam and (especially) Dean get taken out by the hooded figure but her comes teenagers (not even Jody and Donna) who save Sam and Dean from themselves. 

These days all you need to be a good hunter is an app and an attitude.   It really sucks for Sam and Dean whose whole childhood's were sacrificed and they had to be raised like warriors to be good hunters. 

Dean summed it up best when he said:

"This ain't gender studies.  Woman can do the job just fine.  Amateurs can't."

The job seems to big for their first case. 

Replying in bitter spoilers because I have a spoiler related question.

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I didn't like the promo, but it doesn't bother me as long as they don't frame it as "look how totes awesome these women are! They could show Sam and Dean's a thing or two!"

How do they avoid this?

[Pondlass1]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

are you bothered by the Wayward women "saving" Sam and Dean

It's just a contrived notion to kick-start the WS show, so I'm not bothered.  The writers are  kind of stuck with this dream-walker/clairvoyant teens scenario.  Although I don't know why networks chase such a demo - these kids don't watch ads.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I have not read the book, but the way that you describe it, it sounds like at least an inspiration to me... after throwing in some monsters, demons, and apocalyptic consequences.

Neither have I, but now I think I'll put it on my 'to read' list after reading @bozodegama's description.  Thanks!  :)

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I didn't like the promo, but it doesn't bother me as long as they don't frame it as "look how totes awesome these women are! They could show Sam and Dean's a thing or two!"

They've already done that in a way though. They had Dean, who told Patience to stay out of the hunting life, call her for help making him either a hypocrite or wrong for telling her to find a normal life. They had Dean put a gun to Kaia's head to compel her to get into a car with 3 men she doesn't know., then he apologizes and she uses her powers.

They are already saying that Dean is either wrong or underestimates them or needs them because he's desperate but he'll see that those ladies really do have moxie and boy was he wrong to think they shouldn't be involved. 

[bozodegama]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Neither have I, but now I think I'll put it on my 'to read' list after reading @bozodegama's description.  Thanks!  :)

Your welcome.  My pleasure.    I always thought that the reason God *Chuck" sang Dinks song (Noah's wings) and loved "crappy" old folk  music was also a nod to the beat generation which was the inspiration (along with Jazz) for a lot of On The Road.   Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense.  Dink's song is not a Dylan song although he covers it.  It's an old traditional folk song.  It's really a beautiful moment when Rob Benedict sings that song to Metatron. Just my opinionl

[companionenvy]

On 1/12/2018 at 10:10 AM, ILoveReading said:

How do they avoid this?

By not making it a matter of categorically different approaches in which the girls are right and the boys are wrong, but simply presenting it as the WS being in a position where they were able to help. 

The example of the kind of thing I want to avoid would be the episode last year where Mary feels out of place because hunting has gotten so high-tech, only for her interview skills prove crucial to a case. Which was silly, because Sam and Dean routinely interview people, so the writers were just setting up a straw man version of Sam and Dean to prop Mary. 

[catrox14]

53 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

By not making it a matter of categorically different approaches in which the girls are right and the boys are wrong, but simply presenting it as the WS being in a position where they were able to help. 

The example of the kind of thing I want to avoid would be the episode last year where Mary feels out of place because hunting has gotten so high-tech, only for her interview skills prove crucial to a case. Which was silly, because Sam and Dean routinely interview people, so the writers were just setting up a straw man version of Sam and Dean to prop Mary. 

And they have set up straw men versions of the boys and taken Cas out off the board altogether to set up WS. 

[bozodegama]

Rewatching season 13.  I’ve got to say i can’t stand evil Levon Helm (Asmodeus.).  Can’t wait for Dean to stab him.  Really miss Crowley.

[auntvi]

4 hours ago, bozodegama said:

Rewatching season 13.  I’ve got to say i can’t stand evil Levon Helm (Asmodeus.).  Can’t wait for Dean to stab him.  Really miss Crowley.

Evil Levon Helm!!  Now if Asmodeus could sing & play drums he’d be entertaining! 

I pulled into Nazareth, was feeling bout half past dead......

[Pondlass1]

I think Supernatural writers have forgotten that bad guys are allowed to have a personality and sense of humour.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I think Supernatural writers have forgotten that bad guys are allowed to have a personality and sense of humour.

Bring. Back. Crowley. 

9 episodes into the season I have no idea who the enemy is supposed to be. Asmodeus? Michael? Lucifer? Ketch? Dinosaurs? And instead of being an intriguing, slow build, it's just confusing at best, boring at worst. I hope 13b is better, once we're past the Wayward stuff. 

Edited January 14, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
typo

[catrox14]

I think in this case they wanted to get Crowley 2.0 but know the backlash would be too great so I think they went cartoon villain to avoid it.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think in this case they wanted to get Crowley 2.0 but know the backlash would be too great so I think they went cartoon villain to avoid it.

Cartoonish, and too many new/revisited characters. I don't know who any of them are, and 9 episodes in I should. It feels like they are just throwing shit at the wall and waiting to see what sticks. It's not a good way to run a show, IMO. And my opinion of Dabb as the worst thing that ever happened to the Winchesters, and more-so Dean, only grows stronger. He's sacrificing the brothers on the altar of his pets. I have thought since his ascension that he only cares about the spin-off and what's next; he DNGAF about the mothership. Nothing I've seen so far has altered my opinion.

[Bobcatkitten]

I know some people love to have old characters back but I am one that doesn't. At least not all the time. It loses impact to have every episode with a new once-dead character back. Bobby! Rowena! Kevin! Cas! Mary! Ketch! Also makes for weird writing leaps to try to craft a story that makes sense. 

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, scribe95 said:

Ketch! Also makes for weird writing leaps to try to craft a story that makes sense. 

You mean like the groan moment  of evil/good twin?  

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

You mean like the groan moment  of evil/good twin?  

That was ridiculous. The stupidest thing this show has done in a long time and that's saying something. Like in a world filled with shapeshifters and that shifted into Ketch and Mary with the BMOL, you'd think they would have just gone with Ketch is dead and it's a shapeshifter who's lurking about. Seriously!

[Lemuria]

Quote

Even Sam using the Book of the Damned, which probably comes closest, off the top of my head, to one brother looking out for the other while recklessly disregarding the safety of others, isn't a case in which he could have reasonably anticipated the extent of the risk he was taking. The spell he was doing was intended to remove the mark. No one had any notion that the mark was holding back some kind of primordial Darkness.

I have to disagree with this.  For me, this was Sam doing much of the same thing he'd done in Season 4: Ignoring everything/everyone who wasn't saying what he wanted to hear.  As in Season 4, Sam ignored his brother (and others), the only person who could actually hear the Book and certainly someone who wanted the Mark removed.   Dean told him that the Book wanted to be used and that the consequences would be of "biblical proportions." 

We see Sam talking to Cas in a later ep, when Cas is again trying to talk him out using the Book, and Sam is arguing that because Cas can't tell him exactly what's going to happen, he's going to ignore the warning he got.  You know, I may not know precisely what will be visited on us when we encounter "biblical proportions"--hail, murrain, locusts, volcanoes erupting for 100,000 years, earthquakes, dogs and cats sleeping together--but I do have a pretty good idea what "biblical proportions" means overall:  Armageddon.  End of Days. 

And I suspect that Sam, who's supposed to be at least a little bit smart, knows that, too, which would mean that he simply did not  care.

More importantly, Death does tell him exactly what it means and at that point, Sam could still have called off the spell.  He doesn't even try.

So he knew the consequences and he went ahead anyway, ignoring not only those consequences but Dean's stated desire to put the world first.

JMO.  YMMV.

[MysteryGuest]

7 hours ago, scribe95 said:

I know some people love to have old characters back but I am one that doesn't. At least not all the time. It loses impact to have every episode with a new once-dead character back. Bobby! Rowena! Kevin! Cas! Mary! Ketch! Also makes for weird writing leaps to try to craft a story that makes sense. 

Part of the problem is that they should never have "pretend" killed the characters off at the end of last season, then we wouldn't need to resurrect Cas, Mary and Rowena.  If they felt that Crowley/Mark had run his course, then allow that character a decent goodbye.  They totally screwed that one up, and I don't even watch the last few minutes of that episode when I've rewatched.  It was beyond ridiculous.  

I see absolutely no reason to bring Ketch back, and his using Rowena's magic thigh trick was absurd.  I can live with Bobby coming back, because I love Bobby, and it didn't have to be any long thing.  

[Res]

27 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Part of the problem is that they should never have "pretend" killed the characters off at the end of last season, then we wouldn't need to resurrect Cas, Mary and Rowena.  If they felt that Crowley/Mark had run his course, then allow that character a decent goodbye.  They totally screwed that one up, and I don't even watch the last few minutes of that episode when I've rewatched.  It was beyond ridiculous.  

I see absolutely no reason to bring Ketch back, and his using Rowena's magic thigh trick was absurd.  I can live with Bobby coming back, because I love Bobby, and it didn't have to be any long thing.  

I totally agree with all of this, except the Bobby thing which I absolutely HATE every time. Admittedly, I've been completely over his character since season 4. The later attempts to make Bobby the complete, totally amazing better father to the brothers in later season actually had time complete opposite effect on me. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Res

[companionenvy]

At least the show isn't pretending that Bobby mark 1 never died. Every time we've seen him, it has been afterlife Bobby, memory Bobby, or alt Bobby.  Whether or not these returns were necessary, they don't bother me as much as resurrecting characters willy nilly.

Although I'll concede that as dumb as resurrected Ketch is, it is less stupid than I'm Arthur's Good Twin Ketch, which it seemed like we might be getting for a hot minute. 

[Wayward Son]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

J2 are those being "jokingly" maligned by Briana and Dick Speight. That's why we are talking about J2. 

Why do you think Pedowitz keeps saying as long as J2 are in the show will continue. He doesn't say as long as Castiel or Crowley or the rogues gallery of monsters and random hunters stick around the show will continue.

Yes, I would agree that the current main factor on the shows survival is the interest, or lack of interest, J2 have in keeping it going.

 

I am talking about the shows history as a whole and not just now. IMO if the show just had J2 but had been entirely lacking in the other aspects I mentioned (writing, music, direction, special effects etc) the show would not have made it past season one. 

 

This isnt intended as a slight against J2 who definitely played their part in it successes. The great writing wouldn’t have mattered had the two actors cast been substandard.

 

Im just saying that for a show to be successful, particularly in  the early years, IMO it needs good writing and a sense of identity in addition to good acting. If it were just about the actors then there wouldn’t be numerous instances of strong actors being involved in shows that flop and are cancelled after one season. 

[Myrelle]

The CW is not a network that's known for it's stellar writing, IMO, and I don't think that it ever has been. The writing on this network is mediocre, at best, and always has been. If a show lasts on this network, it is largely because of the appeal of the actors that they cast, again IMO.

The writing for Supernatural has never been it's greatest strength to me. Everything else, the directing, the lighting, the acting-all have over-shadowed the writing from pretty much Day One to the present, IMO. That doesn't mean that they haven't had some well-written episodes, but after s4 those became much more far between each other than not to me, and the gaps just kept getting bigger in pretty much every season since.

[Res]

13 hours ago, Myrelle said:

The CW is not a network that's known for it's stellar writing, IMO, and I don't think that it ever has been. The writing on this network is mediocre, at best, and always has been. If a show lasts on this network, it is largely because of the appeal of the actors that they cast, again IMO.

The writing for Supernatural has never been it's greatest strength to me. Everything else, the directing, the lighting, the acting-all have over-shadowed the writing from pretty much Day One to the present, IMO. That doesn't mean that they haven't had some well-written episodes, but after s4 those became much more far between each other than not to me, and the gaps just kept getting bigger in pretty much every season since.

Definitely the last part. I cannot remember in the last three seasons an episode that I can say I want to rewatch or that was well-written. I can hardly remember any parts of episodes that qualify either. I actually am only watching now because I have a hard time quitting something that I once loved and that I want to see JA's acting as well as the end of Dean's story. 

[belbar]

25 minutes ago, Res said:

Definitely the last part. I cannot remember in the last three seasons an episode that I can say I want to rewatch or that was well-written. I can hardly remember any parts of episodes that qualify either. I actually am only watching now because I have a hard time quitting something that I once loved and that I want to see JA's acting as well as the end of Dean's story. 

This so much.

[Bobcatkitten]

This got me thinking - what episodes do I think were well-written in the last few seasons:

 

Season 11 - Baby and Just My Imagination. Both were premises that could have easily flopped but the writing was excellent. In Baby the technical aspects raised it as well and in Just My Imagination the actor that played Sully cemented it for me. 

 

Season 12 - Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox I thought was solid all around. Regarding Dean was amazing. Great concept, good dialogue and obvious Ackles' performance put it over the top.

 

Season 13 - Advanced Thanatology was really good to me; loved the resurrection of Billie as Death and her interaction with Dean. Loved the MOW.

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

This got me thinking - what episodes do I think were well-written in the last few seasons:

 

Season 11 - Baby and Just My Imagination. Both were premises that could have easily flopped but the writing was excellent. In Baby the technical aspects raised it as well and in Just My Imagination the actor that played Sully cemented it for me. 

 

Season 12 - Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox I thought was solid all around. Regarding Dean was amazing. Great concept, good dialogue and obvious Ackles' performance put it over the top.

 

Season 13 - Advanced Thanatology was really good to me; loved the resurrection of Billie as Death and her interaction with Dean. Loved the MOW.

I think from Dabb's era of showrunning

I think there are really wonderful well written scenes in many episodes (not all) but for entire episodes I'll go with

Baby
Into the Mystic
Thin Lizzie
Safe House
Asa Fox
Regarding Dean
Lily Sunder
Lost and Found
Advanced Thanatology

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think from Dabb's era of showrunning

I think there are really wonderful well written scenes in many episodes (not all) but for entire episodes I'll go with

Baby
Into the Mystic
Thin Lizzie
Safe House
Asa Fox
Regarding Dean
Lily Sunder
Lost and Found
Advanced Thanatology

These are pretty good picks and I loved all of the scenes between Jensen & Dee Wallace in Into the Mystic.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

These are pretty good picks and I loved all of the scenes between Jensen & Dee Wallace in Into the Mystic.

IMO Into The Mystic is woefully underrated. The banshee was a good concept. Eileen was great. Her scenes with Sam were wonderful. Dean and Mildred were great. All of it a great episode and super disturbing to see Dean bash his own head against a wall. I'm kind of traumatized by it.

I'm so pissed they killed Eileen. That was just a garbage choice.

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm so pissed they killed Eileen. That was just a garbage choice.

Agreed and the way that they killed her was disgusting.

[Wayward Son]

My choices would be 

 

Baby 

Just My Imagination 

The Vessel 

Safe House 

Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox

Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets

Regarding Dean

Stuck in the Middle With You 

Lost and Found

 

I consider most of the remainder of season 13 so far rather average - not great or not terrible. Except Advanced Thantology - that’s utter trash. 

[Pondlass1]

My Unpopular Opinion is that I'm at the point where I yearn to see Jensen in another role.  I'm kind of hoping it ends at 300 episodes.  Jared has intimated he wants a year off.  But Jensen is very infected by the acting bug.  He loves his family, but I don't think he'll sit on his hands.  And he's pretty brilliant so I would think he'd be snapped up right away - hopefully by some project that's  worthy of him.

It's not so much that Jensen is not respected... I think we've reached a point in the show where Dean is not respected.  And Jensen is only too happy to go along with some of the ad lib slapstick.  Which is ok in small doses.  But it's kind of become a thing lately.

And the story swirls around everyone else now.  Some episodes don't even need Sam and Dean to advance a plot.

The awesome chemistry is still there of course.  Everyone works so hard and I never feel anyone phones it in... but the writers seem stuck on the BIG celestial otherworldly stories now and the brothers are just swept along on a tide of broken and outlandish canon.

 I wanting them riding off into the sunset "We've got work to do".   I'd really like Supernatural The Movie in a few years.  

But it's time.  It's been a fantastic run.  But I'd love to see Jensen portray someone other than Dean Winchester.

[ghostwhisperer]

I love this thread! It lets us know that even the most unpopular opinions are shared by a few other people out there.

Mine are that season 10 is my favorite season of the series, I loved Bela and wish she had stayed on the show for at least a couple of other seasons, in some seasons the blooper and gag reels are better than the majority of the episodes and are awesome enough to justify my decision to buy every DVD set even though I'm broke, Cain as played by Timothy Odmunson is one of my favorite supporting characters (and there have been, what, hundreds by now?), and I love Dean, Sam and Castiel all more or less equally.

[Bobcatkitten]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

My Unpopular Opinion is that I'm at the point where I yearn to see Jensen in another role.  I'm kind of hoping it ends at 300 episodes.  Jared has intimated he wants a year off.  But Jensen is very infected by the acting bug.  He loves his family, but I don't think he'll sit on his hands.  And he's pretty brilliant so I would think he'd be snapped up right away - hopefully by some project that's  worthy of him.

It's not so much that Jensen is not respected... I think we've reached a point in the show where Dean is not respected.  And Jensen is only too happy to go along with some of the ad lib slapstick.  Which is ok in small doses.  But it's kind of become a thing lately.

And the story swirls around everyone else now.  Some episodes don't even need Sam and Dean to advance a plot.

The awesome chemistry is still there of course.  Everyone works so hard and I never feel anyone phones it in... but the writers seem stuck on the BIG celestial otherworldly stories now and the brothers are just swept along on a tide of broken and outlandish canon.

 I wanting them riding off into the sunset "We've got work to do".   I'd really like Supernatural The Movie in a few years.  

But it's time.  It's been a fantastic run.  But I'd love to see Jensen portray someone other than Dean Winchester.

I would be okay with the end of the show at 300 - which is my prediction. I too would like to see Jensen get to do a movie or frankly he would be great in a sitcom. The show has become pretty hit and miss and honestly I think there is a point where storylines are hard to come up with. We are there. But I will soooooo miss it. 

[AsYouWish]

Ghostwhisperer, season 10 is one of my favorites too! The order of my favorite seasons changes all the time, but S10 is definitely in the top three of four. And I hear you on loving and never tiring of the blooper reels :) 

[Katy M]

My UO is I generally don't particularly like the blooper reels.  There will maybe be 2 minutes to stuff on the 10 minute reel that I find funny. 

I don't think these are UOs, but since we're discussing DVD extras, I will say that I wish they would do another Devil's Road Map like they did for Season 2 and I wish J2 would do a commentary once a season.