Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, nightwing877 said:

Unpopular opinion: I liked Jo way more than Charlie. 

Me, too.  I don't hate Charlie, I just hate the way that she is worshipped by everyone.  Every male or female she has come into contact with has wanted her.  Sam and Dean forget how to do things they have done before around her and only she can do them now.  So, basically, I was OK with her in her first 2 or 3 epis.  At least in her first epi, she needed to be talked through the break-in.  But, after that, each episode, she just got more and more perfect and adored, until her last episode, when she got stupid.  How anybody can blame her death on anybody but her (and the Steins, of course) is beyond me.

[nightwing877]

28 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Me, too.  I don't hate Charlie, I just hate the way that she is worshipped by everyone.  Every male or female she has come into contact with has wanted her.  Sam and Dean forget how to do things they have done before around her and only she can do them now.  So, basically, I was OK with her in her first 2 or 3 epis.  At least in her first epi, she needed to be talked through the break-in.  But, after that, each episode, she just got more and more perfect and adored, until her last episode, when she got stupid.  How anybody can blame her death on anybody but her (and the Steins, of course) is beyond me.

Exactly, all of this is why I wasn't a fan of her later on. I admit I didn't mind her in season 7 and 8 though. I just feel Charlie got too good too quickly and too perfect, had Jo survived and lived through season 10. I could buy into her getting better with another 5 or 6 years under her belt. I can buy Jody, given the field of work she does, she could pick it up over the years. Charlie just got too perfect too quickly. Yeah Charlie's death was her own doing. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, nightwing877 said:

Unpopular opinion: I liked Jo way more than Charlie. 

Right there with you. I can't say I disliked Charlie, but I always found her to be a thin character, especially in comparison to Jo, Ellen and Jodi. 

[Pondlass1]

On 10/10/2017 at 5:32 PM, FlickChick said:

What I dislike the most about Dabb's approach to the show, is that by trying to minimize/eliminate the brother angst, he has turned his focus on every other character on the show - including guest stars.

Totally agree.  I get that he's enthused and wants to give us a great show  but in the process he's forgotten why we all watch -  Sam & Dean (and Castiel).  Dabb gets too carried away with the peripheral and discounts the core (S&D).  He gives us shock & awe without time to absorb before we're hit with the next shock & awe - and it's all without consequence, motivation or even makes much sense.

My UO will get me tarred and feathered.  But  Jensen seems to be a bit too keen on ad-libbing the slapstick comedy lately.  And the editors are leaving it in.   

Edited October 18, 2017 by Pondlass1

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, nightwing877 said:

Exactly, all of this is why I wasn't a fan of her later on. I admit I didn't mind her in season 7 and 8 though. I just feel Charlie got too good too quickly and too perfect, had Jo survived and lived through season 10. I could buy into her getting better with another 5 or 6 years under her belt. I can buy Jody, given the field of work she does, she could pick it up over the years. Charlie just got too perfect too quickly. Yeah Charlie's death was her own doing. 

+1 

My beef with the character was how everyone else got a case of the stupids around her. Kinda ironic that she then died of a terminal case of stupid herself. 

18 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

 

My UO will get me tarred and feathered.  But  Jensen seems to be a bit too keen on ad-libbing the slapstick comedy lately.  And the editors are leaving it in.   

Eh, maybe he's figures out that, and the occasional OPT is all that will get him focused on these days. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Jeddah]

I really liked Jo. She’s on my list of this show’s missed opportunities and wasted potential. If TPTB had known this show would last for 13 (and hopefully more!) seasons I wonder if they would have killed off Ellen and Jo when they did.

But I did like Charlie too!

[MysteryGuest]

I liked Charlie, and I thought she brought out an interesting side to both Sam and Dean.  I agree that they went too far in making her character some sort of super hunter.  She was much more fun as the geeky computer nerd.  Had they just allowed her character to remain as she was originally written, it would have been much better.  Her death was horribly written for so many reasons...they had to turn both her and Cas into idiots, first of all, which annoyed the crap out of me.  I was sad that they killed her off, but I was more angry at how they did it.

I loved both Ellen and Jo and wish they'd been kept around longer.  

[Diane]

5 hours ago, nightwing877 said:

Unpopular opinion: I liked Jo way more than Charlie. 

Me too. 

[ahrtee]

6 hours ago, nightwing877 said:

Unpopular opinion: I liked Jo way more than Charlie. 

I liked 'em both, but in different ways.  Jo was kind of a cliche at first, but at the end had potential to become a more interesting character.  Charlie was a more interesting character in the beginning (and I did love her relationship with Dean), but by the end had become too much of a Mary Sue and that killed my liking for her.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I actually enjoyed Bella on the show.  I don't like that they gave her a super-sad backstory with a demon deal.  But I liked when she was an interesting adversary, without being particularly evil.  

[Aeryn13]

In retrospect I think Bella wasn`t a terrible character but what became more pronounced with Charlie later was a problem with her also. The characters regressed into Dumby McDumbersons in her episodes so she could shine. I think a character template for her was Amanda, the immortal thief on Highlander and she did a little dance with the main character, too but he still kepts his normal wits about him around her. 

With Jo, ironically, they killed her off, right when they had fixed her. Originally conceptionalized as a love interest for Dean because they were honest-to-God gonna do Empire there early Season 2 with Luke  Sam on his destiny journey and Han/Leia Dean/Jo on their romance sidenote. Thankfully that got nipped in the butt super-early.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

In retrospect I think Bella wasn`t a terrible character but what became more pronounced with Charlie later was a problem with her also. The characters regressed into Dumby McDumbersons in her episodes so she could shine. I think a character template for her was Amanda, the immortal thief on Highlander and she did a little dance with the main character, too but he still kepts his normal wits about him around her. 

I think the problem with Bela was completely different.  She was a thief who didn't care for human life.  I could handle that. Its who she was.  She was kind of fun in Bad Day at Black Rock.  Though I find it hard to believe that Dean was OK with her shooting Sam.  However, they then tried to give her a humanizing back story, which, at least to me, failed miserably. I have all the sympathy in the world for abused children.   If Bela had just taken a knife and stabbed her father, while I won't go so far as to say that's OK, it's certainly understandable, and I'm not going to judge people for that.  But, she sold her soul to a demon for something it seems she could have done herself.  Cut brake lines?  And, then, even though she inherited more than enough to support herself for 10 years, when she's going to die anyway, she has to rob people and has no compunction about killing.  And what makes it even weirder is that story was just for us.  Dean knows she killed her parents, but never did find out she was abused.  She and Alistair are the only two characters I absolutely hate and can't even find anything about them I like.  I even find Ketch, the sociopath, more palatable than Bela.  Precisely because they didn't try to make me feel sorry for him, probably.

[nightwing877]

8 hours ago, Jeddah said:

I really liked Jo. She’s on my list of this show’s missed opportunities and wasted potential. If TPTB had known this show would last for 13 (and hopefully more!) seasons I wonder if they would have killed off Ellen and Jo when they did.

But I did like Charlie too!

Your exactly right about that, had they known how long the show would go. They may not have died, it felt like they died to serve the story and possible ending of the series in season 5 at that point. So much wasted potential for these characters. 

If it were me, and they knew the show may have lasted longer. Ellen, Jo and Rufus would of had longer life on this show as recurring characters through the seasons. But had they been around, we may not have gotten much more than Jody and Donna. Heck the spin-off series may have well just focused on Ellen, Jo, Rufus, Jody and Bobby if he lived instead lol

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Right there with you. I can't say I disliked Charlie, but I always found her to be a thin character, especially in comparison to Jo, Ellen and Jodi. 

Exactly. Jo, Ellen and Jody are my fav female characters, I actually even like them more than Mary. 

[DittyDotDot]

13 hours ago, nightwing877 said:

Exactly. Jo, Ellen and Jody are my fav female characters, I actually even like them more than Mary. 

I don't dislike Mary, per se, i just think she's a fool and all. But, every story needs a fool or two, right?

[nightwing877]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't dislike Mary, per se, i just think she's a fool and all. But, every story needs a fool or two, right?

Your right about that in regards to Mary. I do hope they have better stuff for her in S13, since she didn't get killed off by Lucifer in the S12 final, she must have more story left. I just hope she survives long enough for John to make a return.

[Wayward Son]

I was pretty convinced before, but after watching his solo season 8 episodes featuring Castiel (Hunteri Heroici and Clip Show) I am now 100% certain all my issues with Castiel from S11 on are Andrew Dabb’s fault. He's the one who sees Castiel as a bumbling idiot utterly incapable of getting anything right such as a simple vampire hunt.He’s the one who sees Cas’ only role being there to cause trouble for everyone else through his stupid, moronic decisions.

 

Him becoming show runner is the worst ‘effng thing to ever happen to Castiel. And yes that includes Sera Gambles era. Yes, she too made him into the screws everything up guy, but at least he was competent and got bad ass moments under her. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I was pretty convinced before, but after watching his solo season 8 episodes featuring Castiel (Hunteri Heroici and Clip Show) I am now 100% certain all my issues with Castiel from S11 on are Andrew Dabb’s fault.

I actually thought that Cas's storyline in Hunteri Heroici was pretty good. He's able to voice his remorse from his actions in Heaven as God Cas while Sera disintegrated him and later made him insane after these events. He also wants to return to make things right but is held back from doing so by Naomi's mind control. We see that his intentions are still good & he is intent on doing the honorable by making things right. Plus it gave us this cute face after his hunter declaration:

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I actually thought that Cas's storyline in Hunteri Heroici was pretty good. He's able to voice his remorse from his actions in Heaven as God Cas while Sera disintegrated him and later made him insane after these events. He also wants to return to make things right but is held back from doing so by Naomi's mind control. We see that his intentions are still good & he is intent on doing the honorable by making things right. Plus it gave us this cute face after his hunter declaration:

In my opinion, Cas' time under Carver was more of a tragic figure seeking redemption than a fool. Dabb wrote Hunter Heroci but I didn't think Cas looked the fool at all. He wanted to hunt. He helped with the case and he stayed with Fred. IMO that parallel was more about Cas than Sam.

Anyway, Cas messed up badly with the angel war. He carried so much guilt that he did penance by staying in Purgatory and protecting Dean for a year by staying away from him. He had no way of knowing that Metatron was a liar and that he was being reprogrammed by Naomi to kill Dean. Once Dean helped him break that programming he took the tablet to keep it away from the angels.  He only tried to make things right and was taken advantage of by Metatron and Naomi. As he told Dean "I prefer trusting. Less dumb. Less ass".

I still think Sera did the worst number on Cas because she made him borderline villainous, made him a Leviathan and CrazyGod!Cas and then killed him off.  IMO, it was Carver who resurrected Cas and make him important to the boys again and give him a SL with the angel tablets, being human (heh)and trying to reunite Heaven. He wasn't a fool but he was hopeful.

IMO, the only characters Dabb cares about is Lucifer/Jack. Dean/Sam/Cas are plot devices to prop Lucifer's SL.

[ILoveReading]

I wasn't sure of the best place to post this, but some of the opinions on this tumblr post might be unpopular I thought the best place was here. 

http://electric-sympathy.tumblr.com/post/166763448825/the-combined-attitude-of-this-show-and-fandom

It basically sums up my thougths and feelings on the way Dabb and Co. are handing the Jack storyline.

I'd like to add my name to that list who think Dabb is the worst thing that ever happened to this show.

I won't copy and paste the whole because there is one part that may or may not be a spoiler.  So I'll err on the side of caution.  But if you avoid spoilers its vague enough to be considered speculation. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

30 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I wasn't sure of the best place to post this, but some of the opinions on this tumblr post might be unpopular I thought the best place was here. 

http://electric-sympathy.tumblr.com/post/166763448825/the-combined-attitude-of-this-show-and-fandom

It basically sums up my thougths and feelings on the way Dabb and Co. are handing the Jack storyline.

I'd like to add my name to that list who think Dabb is the worst thing that ever happened to this show.

I won't copy and paste the whole because there is one part that may or may not be a spoiler.  So I'll err on the side of caution.  But if you avoid spoilers its vague enough to be considered speculation. 

+1 (million)

[Aeryn13]

I think they have gone overboard with the purity and cutesy-ness. They basically made him Baby Groot, only Baby Groot actually had a dangerous side. Right now there is no question about Jack. He is "dangerous" only because he is so naive and sweet, any yokel can manipulate him into using his powers.   

[Wayward Son]

20 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I actually thought that Cas's storyline in Hunteri Heroici was pretty good. He's able to voice his remorse from his actions in Heaven as God Cas while Sera disintegrated him and later made him insane after these events. He also wants to return to make things right but is held back from doing so by Naomi's mind control. We see that his intentions are still good & he is intent on doing the honorable by making things right. Plus it gave us this cute face after his hunter declaration:

I'd agree that his Hunteri Heroici storyline was overall rather decent with the exception of it being the beginning of the end re Cas' redemption thanks to Naomi's interference, but I'll blame that side of things on Carver as he was the show runner at the time. However, it also features moron Cas scenes such as the overly dramatic "why did you kill your husband?" or the whole debacle with the cat *rolls eyes*. At the time I didn't mind this so much, but due to these aspects of Cas being multipled by x100 under Dabb I'm rather bitter. 

 

Overall, I am extremely critical to Carver and strongly dislike his seasons considering him to be the worst show runner yet for both Sam and Dean. I know others disagree and I don't want to get into a debate over it, I'm just stating that I consider him the worst for both brothers. However, to give credit where credit is due I feel Carver did a pretty good job of allowing Castiel to develop as a person throughout the course of season 9. Through his time as a human, and the fallout of that time, Castiel was forced to interact with general humanity in a way he never had before, he learnt more about how to relate to others and to their struggle, he learnt about the importance of the individual rather than just the big picture etc. He was even given the pop culture upgrade from Metatron. IMO, Dabb has decided to ignore all of this pivotal character development and instead opted to completely forget the best aspects of Castiel and simply focus on the worst parts of him. To Dabb Castiel is the gullible sap destined to a grim life of forever making mistake after mistake and learning nothing from each of them. The show even has Cas call out on the writers insistence on heaping failure after failure on him only to then kill him off several episodes later as a result of another mistake of his.

 

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

In my opinion, Cas' time under Carver was more of a tragic figure seeking redemption than a fool. Dabb wrote Hunter Heroci but I didn't think Cas looked the fool at all. He wanted to hunt. He helped with the case and he stayed with Fred. IMO that parallel was more about Cas than Sam.

Anyway, Cas messed up badly with the angel war. He carried so much guilt that he did penance by staying in Purgatory and protecting Dean for a year by staying away from him. He had no way of knowing that Metatron was a liar and that he was being reprogrammed by Naomi to kill Dean. Once Dean helped him break that programming he took the tablet to keep it away from the angels.  He only tried to make things right and was taken advantage of by Metatron and Naomi. As he told Dean "I prefer trusting. Less dumb. Less ass".

I still think Sera did the worst number on Cas because she made him borderline villainous, made him a Leviathan and CrazyGod!Cas and then killed him off.  IMO, it was Carver who resurrected Cas and make him important to the boys again and give him a SL with the angel tablets, being human (heh)and trying to reunite Heaven. He wasn't a fool but he was hopeful.

IMO, the only characters Dabb cares about is Lucifer/Jack. Dean/Sam/Cas are plot devices to prop Lucifer's SL.

Surprisingly, as I highlighted to @DeeDee79 above, I actually have few complaints about the overall handling of Castiel under Carver and was referring to specific episodes written by Andrew Dabb. I actually consider him the second best show runner for Cas (the first being Eric Kripke) as he allowed Castiel to try and atone for his actions in a way far more meaningful than the escapism of late season seven, he allowed Castiel to grow as a person through his experiences as a human as demonstrated when he refused to risk Sam's life for the bigger picture in First Born, he allowed Castiel a rather clever defeat over Metatron and instead of heaping all the blame on him for Amara in S10 that blame was shared with Sam (if not more strongly Sam's). 

 

I consider Sera Gamble and Andrew Dabb to both be truly terrible show runners for Castiel, but the crown of worst quite firmly belongs to Dabb IMO. As a viewer I place importance on two things

 

• Characterisation (I don't care about anything else. If I get this in a way that's consistent I'm delighted)
• Competency / Big Hero Moments etc.

IMO Sera Gamble's treatment of the characterization of Castiel was atrocious. However, there were some things about Castiel that made sense for instance Raphael's plan to free Michael and Lucifer and get the apocalypse back in order was a legitimate threat he needed to do something about and since a lot of the fighting involved was based in heaven rather than earth the help Sam and Dean could offer was limited. While her characterisation had major, major, flaws that make me consider her era bad for Castiel, at the very least she allowed Cas to be competent. He got to kick the ass of other angels who opposed him such as those in The Third Man, he had the leadership and charisma qualities needed to lead an army of angels against Raphael throughout season 6, and while Dean got the kill he also played an essential role in the defeat of Dick Roman. So under Gamble characterisation = bad while competency = somewhat acceptable. 

Dabb on the other hand does not even give Castiel that much. Under Dabb he is portrayed as an utter weakling and has his ass kicked by pretty much every enemy he comes across. His actions make no sense whatsoever. At least Gamble established that he began his descent into hubris and darkness threatened by Raphael who was indeed troublesome. Under Dabb he unleashed Lucifer out of the age because what he's a gullible moron who is stupid enough to buy the pitched Sam just rejected? He sided against the brothers and started supporting Kelly and Jack because Jack happened to show him a vision of this happy utopia? All Dabb has done with Castiel is make him commit failure after failure without the slightest win. They practically make fun of it by having Cas himself comment on it to Dean only to die thanks to another failure a few episodes later. Dabb has abandoned any development Carver tried to give the character in favour of his vision of Cas as a bumbling moron with absolutely no common sense. At this point even I, as a major Cas fan, just want to tell him to go sit in the back and say nothing because all he does is make things worse for everyone. So under Dabb it's character = bad competency = even worse than bad. Gamble gets one out of two (albeit the point I care less about) while Dabb has given the character absolutely nothing. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So under Dabb it's character = bad competency = even worse than bad. Gamble gets one out of two (albeit the point I care less about) while Dabb has given the character absolutely nothing. 

We feel the same way about Carver, just for different characters. Though I will say I agree also on Cas not faring particularly well under him. Season 12-Cas was just weird and his "death" was super weird. There had to have been a way to write/shoot this scene more competently than "danger has passed...nope, Cas goes back for no real reason...and he just gets randomely killed off."  For an episodic character, fine, but for a long-standing regular one? Eh.

Now I do believe Dabb is heavily enamored with Lucifer but that hasn`t translated to good writing either. Just more screentime. 

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

We feel the same way about Carver, just for different characters. Though I will say I agree also on Cas not faring particularly well under him. Season 12-Cas was just weird and his "death" was super weird. There had to have been a way to write/shoot this scene more competently than "danger has passed...nope, Cas goes back for no real reason...and he just gets randomely killed off."  For an episodic character, fine, but for a long-standing regular one? Eh.

Now I do believe Dabb is heavily enamored with Lucifer but that hasn`t translated to good writing either. Just more screentime. 

 

Do you mean we agree about Dabb, just for different character? 

And  don't even get me started on how idiotic they had Cas behave for his death scene. If they had to kill him off why couldn't it have been portrayed him as him knowingly going to his death to help Crowley with the task of biding time for the boys to escape or something. Instead it's just like "the dangers past, but I'm going to approach Lucifer with a weapon that won't kill him and try to kill him anyway". Ugh. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I wasn't sure of the best place to post this, but some of the opinions on this tumblr post might be unpopular I thought the best place was here. 

http://electric-sympathy.tumblr.com/post/166763448825/the-combined-attitude-of-this-show-and-fandom

It basically sums up my thougths and feelings on the way Dabb and Co. are handing the Jack storyline.

I'd like to add my name to that list who think Dabb is the worst thing that ever happened to this show.

I won't copy and paste the whole because there is one part that may or may not be a spoiler.  So I'll err on the side of caution.  But if you avoid spoilers its vague enough to be considered speculation. 

Yep!  Andrew Dabb/Ross/Lemming/Singer have turned this show into a silly melodrama.    It's really tough to watch Jensen and Jared still trying to make their show edgy and dark and pertinent to the brothers journey.  They have been reduced to one dimensional characters.  Basically shadow traits of who they used to be.  Dark depressed Dean and Emo/analyzing everyone Sam.   This season like the last doesn't really need the Winchesters at all.  They are (at least so far) just witnesses to Jack's story. 

[FlickChick]

19 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Yep!  Andrew Dabb/Ross/Lemming/Singer have turned this show into a silly melodrama.    It's really tough to watch Jensen and Jared still trying to make their show edgy and dark and pertinent to the brothers journey.  They have been reduced to one dimensional characters.  Basically shadow traits of who they used to be.  Dark depressed Dean and Emo/analyzing everyone Sam.   This season like the last doesn't really need the Winchesters at all.  They are (at least so far) just witnesses to Jack's story. 

This exactly! And I am extremely bitter that the story of the Winchesters that I loved has devolved into this extreme focus on Jack and Lucifer. It is an insult to long-time viewers/fans in my opinion. And Dabb should be aware of this as he has been a writer for the show for a long time. Don't even get me started about his killing off Cas at the end of last season in the most moronic manner possible. I know we'll see Misha again, but I'm not sure in what way. However,

Spoiler

since I saw full wings at the beginning of the premiere episode while Dean is by his side, I'm hoping that OUR CAS is in the AU and will return to us. But this is my speculation only.

The saddest part of having Dabb as show-runner is that I believe that he will remain as such until the series' end. Which will probably mean that this viewer won't get a satisfying ending. :( JMO

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

However, it also features moron Cas scenes such as the overly dramatic "why did you kill your husband?" or the whole debacle with the cat *rolls eyes*. At the time I didn't mind this so much, but due to these aspects of Cas being multipled by x100 under Dabb I'm rather bitter. 

I can understand this. It's fine for a chuckle or two during an episode that's mostly comedic but when a pattern emerges under the same writer you start to become pretty pissed off. Strangely enough he's actually written 2 of my favorite season 10 episodes: The Prisoner & Inside Man. Hard to believe since I hate what he's done to the show since he's taken over.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

This exactly! And I am extremely bitter that the story of the Winchesters that I loved has devolved into this extreme focus on Jack and Lucifer. It is an insult to long-time viewers/fans in my opinion. And Dabb should be aware of this as he has been a writer for the show for a long time. Don't even get me started about his killing off Cas at the end of last season in the most moronic manner possible. I know we'll see Misha again, but I'm not sure in what way. However,

  Hide contents

since I saw full wings at the beginning of the premiere episode while Dean is by his side, I'm hoping that OUR CAS is in the AU and will return to us. But this is my speculation only.

The saddest part of having Dabb as show-runner is that I believe that he will remain as such until the series' end. Which will probably mean that this viewer won't get a satisfying ending. :( JMO

Dabb has acknowledged that they will lose core fans.  He and Singer (Ross/Lemming) are confident those loyal fans will be replaced by more recent fans.  As long as the ratings hold Dabb/CW/WB will consider his tenure a success.

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Dabb has acknowledged that they will lose core fans.  He and Singer (Ross/Lemming) are confident those loyal fans will be replaced by more recent fans.  As long as the ratings hold Dabb/CW/WB will consider his tenure a success.

So the fans that have stuck with and loved the show from the beginning are irrelevant as long as someone keeps watching. That's..pretty repugnant.

Edited October 27, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Dabb has acknowledged that they will lose core fans.  He and Singer (Ross/Lemming) are confident those loyal fans will be replaced by more recent fans.  As long as the ratings hold Dabb/CW/WB will consider his tenure a success.

When did he say that? That seems like terrible PR

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

When did he say that? That seems like terrible PR

Exactly!

[Casseiopeia]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

When did he say that? That seems like terrible PR

I want to say it was sometime around SDCC.  I can't remember if it was in an interview I read or if it was a video.  But he and Singer both said that they knew they would lose core fans.  I remember being stunned they said that out loud in an interview. He has said similar things about fans in the past.  At 2016 SCDCC he commented that he knew fans wouldn't love or even like his season finale.   He just didn't seem all that concerned about it.  He had the keys to the Lamborghini.   He wants to tell his Bloodlines story.

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

So the fans that have stuck with and loved the show from the beginning are irrelevant as long as someone keeps watching. That's..pretty repugnant.

I think the context for the question had something to do with the longevity of the show. If I recall properly, it wasn't Dabb, but Singer who said it and he wasn't saying that it's okay to lose viewers because we pick up more, but was more a comment of: there's always a loss of viewers with a show that's been on this long and most don't weather that loss, but they've been lucky in that they seem to keep picking up new viewers too.

So, no, I don't think he's celebrating the loss of longtime viewers, but just knows that it's going happen no matter what he does--it's the nature of the business--but he is glad Kripke sold his soul back in the day so they could still be getting so lucky all these years later...or, that was my take on it anyway.

16 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Yep!  Andrew Dabb/Ross/Lemming/Singer have turned this show into a silly melodrama. 

You wouldn't include Carver in this statement? I think was never more silly and melodramatic than under Carver's tutelage. I think Dabb has backed off the silly melodrama quite a bit in comparison. but it seems they think melodrama works now, so I don't think it will ever go away. 

TBH, I think the melodrama is probably mostly due to Singer, myself. His episodes have always had a melodramatic tilt to them and the show seemed to embrace that tone once Kripke exited for good and Singer took more of the reigns. It seems to me Carver and Singer were probably too like minded so the scales tipped too far to the melodrama. What they need is another Kripke--a polar opposite to Singer--to regain that balance.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Do you mean we agree about Dabb, just for different character? 

Yes. Your points "character bad" and "competency bad" I heartily agree with, just for Dean. Though I`d say it was true for Cas as well last Season. I mean, what was that? 

This year, I think Cas has at least a potentially interesting storyline that doesn`t feel so disconnected from everything. We`ll see about the execution.

In terms of being the worst showrunner for Cas, hm. I felt everyone in one way or another fell down on the job after Kripke. Maybe that is because under Kripke`s reign, Cas was part of the main plot and therefore allowed to be there organically and grow as a character. The other showrunners tried to come up with stories for the character that could have been potentially interesting but noone ever had the fucking guts to commit. Those weren`t stories to be told in offscreenville and have that revolving door for Cas. Those were stories that would have warranted for the character to do more than just barely 13 out of 22/23 episodes.

And if they weren`t gonna do that, then they should have continued to integrate him in the main plot. not those side adventures that got told in stop-motion-fashion.  

[Wayward Son]

13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yes. Your points "character bad" and "competency bad" I heartily agree with, just for Dean. Though I`d say it was true for Cas as well last Season. I mean, what was that? 

This year, I think Cas has at least a potentially interesting storyline that doesn`t feel so disconnected from everything. We`ll see about the execution.

In terms of being the worst showrunner for Cas, hm. I felt everyone in one way or another fell down on the job after Kripke. Maybe that is because under Kripke`s reign, Cas was part of the main plot and therefore allowed to be there organically and grow as a character. The other showrunners tried to come up with stories for the character that could have been potentially interesting but noone ever had the fucking guts to commit. Those weren`t stories to be told in offscreenville and have that revolving door for Cas. Those were stories that would have warranted for the character to do more than just barely 13 out of 22/23 episodes.

And if they weren`t gonna do that, then they should have continued to integrate him in the main plot. not those side adventures that got told in stop-motion-fashion.  

I agree with you completely on this! I've said for a long time the biggest problem with Castiel is that the writers want to treat him like a main character, with his own individual mytharcs and motivations, but they aren't willing to put in the time and commitment to pull it off effectively. 

[ILoveReading]

For me the Jack storyline isn't working.

I don't dislike the character, I just find him boring.  Now, Alex is doing a good job with is trying to convey Jack's good vs evil story, but I find the writing isn't backing this up.

What I mean is I feel like the writers have already made up their minds that Jack is a goody two shoes.  So it kind of takes me out of the scene because I don't think the writers are actually interested in exploring Jack's dark side.  So Jack wondering if he'll go bad doesn't ring true. 

[Bergamot]

On 10/27/2017 at 6:24 PM, ILoveReading said:

For me the Jack storyline isn't working.

I don't dislike the character, I just find him boring.  Now, Alex is doing a good job with is trying to convey Jack's good vs evil story, but I find the writing isn't backing this up.

What I mean is I feel like the writers have already made up their minds that Jack is a goody two shoes.  So it kind of takes me out of the scene because I don't think the writers are actually interested in exploring Jack's dark side.  So Jack wondering if he'll go bad doesn't ring true. 

I agree with this opinion - I find Jack to be boring too, and a disappointment as a character. He is all-powerful offspring of Lucifer, yet as a character he conveys no sense of real danger, no layers,  no ambiguity, no sharp edges at all. He is just a soft, sad little muffin.

I was struck by the way he misrepresented to Sam what Dean said about ending him if he went bad, and was momentarily hopeful that we would see Jack carefully observing Sam's reaction, at least raising the possibility that he was playing the brothers off against each other. It would have made him so much more interesting as a character. But I don't think this is where the show is going.

I also agree that the nature versus nurture debate is already over, as far as Jack is concerned. If he goes evil, it appears to me that it will only be because he is somehow nutured that way. He is just an innocent little woobie who likes eating candy, and who can't possibly be asked to sleep on a couch instead of a soft bed. Who cries because he wants his Mommy, and curls up in a corner to pout if he feels that someone is being mean to him. His primary superpower appears to be his capacity for self-absorption and self-pity. I am already so tired of him.

I guess I am just disappointed in the way that Supernatural has turned into a show about misunderstood teenagers with superpowers, who must develop their powers in order to heroically save the world. Aren't there already enough shows like this on TV?

I think that the contrast between the introductions of Alex and Patience shows how the show has changed. Alex was kidnapped as a child by vampires, and used by them for years, horribly, as bait and as a feeding bag. The story of her life was not a superhero fantasy, but a twisted horror story. But because of her inner strength and goodness, she was able to survive and break free.

And Jody, who had suffered through her own horror story, was there to help. When Jody told Alex, "Whatever you want from me, I'll give it... I'm here" - it made me cry. Two broken people bonding together, helping each other to survive the supernatural evil that ruined their lives and tried to use them in horrible ways, people who then try to help others who face the same fate. This was the story that the show was telling about its characters, with Dean and Sam, but also with characters like Bobby and Cas.

Jody's parting words to Patience, in contrast to her words to Alex, did not move me. Patience, you are a special magical person, and you need to allow yourself to be the special magical heroic person that you are and not let anyone tell you what to do.  And of course it is what most teenagers would like to hear, so I understand why it is such a popular theme.

Dean's warning to her - based on a lifetime of bitter experience - about the consequences of choosing the life of a hunter made him sound like a character who has somehow stepped in from a totally different show. Which to me it is starting to feel that he has. It makes me miss the original recipe Supernatural.
 

[ILoveReading]

24 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Dean's warning to her - based on a lifetime of bitter experience - about the consequences of choosing the life of a hunter made him sound like a character who has somehow stepped in from a totally different show. Which to me it is starting to feel that he has. It makes me miss the original recipe Supernatural.

I read an interesting post on Tumblr about this.  About how Dean no longer fits in the Supernatural world. 

Hunting used to presented as something that was a cold hard lonely life that most often meant dying young.   It reminds me of the difference between how Dean talked about hunting to Jo and Claire.  He told Jo to hold on to what she had, that hunting wasn't the romantic story she heard about at the Roadhouse.  With Claire he gives encorages it somewhat.  Why the complete 180?

We saw a hunter like Richie back in Sin City.  He was clearly not cut our for the job and ended up getting killed.  There was the ghostfacers.  I didn't mind them becasue we saw just how inept they were.  It wasn't skill that kept them alive it was just dumb luck. 

Now we have Charlie whinging that hunting isn't magical enough, and you can be a good hunter by downloading an ap, and its something teenagers should do in their spare time.   Don't listen to the guy that years of experience.  That end scene really came out of no where it felt like Jody threw Dean under the bus.

Actually, I found Dean and Jody's interaction in this ep kind of cold.  It was like two strangers hunting together. 

It's gone from horror to fantasy.  Hunting is now an an adventure not something to be feared.  Monsters don't seem to be scary anymore because they all have sob stories and are really just misunderstood.

I think that is also what is turning me off the spin off. 

Dean is the the only character that hasn't really made the transition yet, so its making him the odd man out. 

Here's the link

http://veneredirimmel.tumblr.com/post/166978489150/i-wanted-to-expand-on-the-idea-i-have-seen

Edited November 1, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I read an interesting post on Tumblr about this.  About how Dean no longer fits in the Supernatural world. 

Hunting used to presented as something that was a cold hard lonely life that most often meant dying young.   It reminds me of the difference between how Dean talked about hunting to Jo and Claire.  He told Jo to hold on to what she had, that hunting wasn't the romantic story she heard about at the Roadhouse.  With Claire he gives encorages it somewhat.  Why the complete 180?

We saw a hunter like Richie back in Sin City.  He was clearly not cut our for the job and ended up getting killed.  There was the ghostfacers.  I didn't mind them becasue we saw just how inept they were.  It wasn't skill that kept them alive it was just dumb luck. 

Now we have Charlie whinging that hunting isn't magical enough, and you can be a good hunter by downloading an ap, and its something teenagers should do in their spare time.   Don't listen to the guy that years of experience.  That end scene really came out of no where it felt like Jody threw Dean under the bus.

Actually, I found Dean and Jody's interaction in this ep kind of cold.  It was like two strangers hunting together. 

It's gone from horror to fantasy.  Hunting is now an an adventure not something to be feared.  Monsters don't seem to be scary anymore because they all have sob stories and are really just misunderstood.

I think that is also what is turning me off the spin off. 

Dean is the the only character that hasn't really made the transition yet, so its making him the odd man out. 

Here's the link

http://veneredirimmel.tumblr.com/post/166978489150/i-wanted-to-expand-on-the-idea-i-have-seen

That's a really interesting read. Thanks for bringing it over. I wonder if that's how they end the show for Dean. That he no longer fits. Which would be a fucking shame to do a badass character. I wonder if some of this has to do with trying to get the spinoff and the move to 8pm. Like do TPTB or Dabb just want "Bloodlines" which was fantasy not horror really.

Hmmm. Good food for thought.

[Aeryn13]

I think it`s the somewhat clumsy set-up of the spin-off. To get these characters to join up, diving into the supernatural world is cool and awesome and an empowered choice. Yet I bet once the show gets going (if it does), there will be endless angsting and moaning over the inability to have a normal life. Because that`s a staple of all shows of that ilk, Buffy did it, the Berlanti-verse shows do it to varying degrees, the vampire shows do/did it and so on and so forth. 

Dean said nothing but the truth. It got dismissed here because he is a man and Jody was supposed to be the woman who gave another young woman the empowered choice. And yet if Wayward Sisters runs long enough, you will have Patience (and Claire and Alex and Jody) bemoan the hunting life just as Dean described it here. To which I will say: you should have listened in the first place.

Overall, giving all the monsters sob stories and misunderstood woobie backgrounds negates the premise of the show. Why do they hunt and why should that be a good thing? It makes the Winchesters the monsters basically. Oh, I know, we`re supposed to ignore this for the random monster episodes but sorry, ain`t that easy. It`s like opening Pandora`s box. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think it`s the somewhat clumsy set-up of the spin-off. To get these characters to join up, diving into the supernatural world is cool and awesome and an empowered choice. Yet I bet once the show gets going (if it does), there will be endless angsting and moaning over the inability to have a normal life. Because that`s a staple of all shows of that ilk, Buffy did it, the Berlanti-verse shows do it to varying degrees, the vampire shows do/did it and so on and so forth. 

Dean said nothing but the truth. It got dismissed here because he is a man and Jody was supposed to be the woman who gave another young woman the empowered choice. And yet if Wayward Sisters runs long enough, you will have Patience (and Claire and Alex and Jody) bemoan the hunting life just as Dean described it here. To which I will say: you should have listened in the first place.

Overall, giving all the monsters sob stories and misunderstood woobie backgrounds negates the premise of the show. Why do they hunt and why should that be a good thing? It makes the Winchesters the monsters basically. Oh, I know, we`re supposed to ignore this for the random monster episodes but sorry, ain`t that easy. It`s like opening Pandora`s box. 

Boy this is the truth.  Like if Dabb et al were trying to say that the longer you stay in hunting the more you become a monster yourself, then the answer is to stop hunting and that's the end of the show.  Like that would be an interesting ending. But this is just dragging Dean through the mud of incompetency and I guess HARHAR OLD or something.

I agree that Dean and Jody did not seem comfortable together which was a complete 180 from last season.

[FlickChick]

I think a lot of what's going on is Dabb's pandering to the ever-growing young audience that have found this long-running show. New blood and young blood to post on twitter, tumblr, and please the CW advertising gods. That, IMO, is why this season is focused on this uninteresting young teen Jack and his "ever possibly growing evil powers" that we have seen no proof of. And Dean, especially as the oldest hunter (since Bobby and Rufus are gone), doesn't fit in with his sage advice borne of experience. Yes, I believe that is one of the reasons that Dean specifically might be shown as a monster somewhat this season. And have I mentioned how much I hate Dabb running this show? How much I hate this focus on Lucifer/Spawnifer instead of our interesting Winchesters and Cas? And last season on the BMOL and Kelly and Lucifer and unfortunately, Mary? Am I bitter? You're damn right I am!

Edited November 1, 2017 by FlickChick
Can't forget Cas...

[MysteryGuest]

I think that throughout the series, both Dean and Sam have wavered back and forth between "hunting is an awful life and it's going to end bloody" and "we do important work and have saved the world".  I think it depends on their mindset.  Just last season Dean was telling Mary that he was proud to be a hunter.  He's been kicked in the teeth again with the loss of Mary, Cas, Crowley, etc., so he's in a particularly bad place right now, emotionally.  So all he's focused on is what they've lost and the burden of having to protect people from Jack, if he becomes a problem.  He's not thinking at all of the good they've done.  I think it's a pretty normal reaction, so it doesn't really bother me.

What does bother me about Jack the "sad little muffin" (love it!) is that as much as he doesn't seem the least bit scary at this point, I wouldn't really be much happier if they had decided to have him be evil right from the start.  This was my problem with the Jack storyline from the beginning.  Where do you take it?  If he's bad, then he's just another Lucifer and considering original recipe Lucifer is still around, we don't need two of them.  Add in AU Michael to the mix, and they can't have all three of them being evil.  I'm going to assume that Jack will end up helping them destroy Michael, and possibly Lucifer by the end of the season.  I just don't see where else they they go with this.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I read an interesting post on Tumblr about this.  About how Dean no longer fits in the Supernatural world. 

Hunting used to presented as something that was a cold hard lonely life that most often meant dying young.   It reminds me of the difference between how Dean talked about hunting to Jo and Claire.  He told Jo to hold on to what she had, that hunting wasn't the romantic story she heard about at the Roadhouse.  With Claire he gives encorages it somewhat.  Why the complete 180?

We saw a hunter like Richie back in Sin City.  He was clearly not cut our for the job and ended up getting killed.  There was the ghostfacers.  I didn't mind them becasue we saw just how inept they were.  It wasn't skill that kept them alive it was just dumb luck. 

Now we have Charlie whinging that hunting isn't magical enough, and you can be a good hunter by downloading an ap, and its something teenagers should do in their spare time.   Don't listen to the guy that years of experience.  That end scene really came out of no where it felt like Jody threw Dean under the bus.

Actually, I found Dean and Jody's interaction in this ep kind of cold.  It was like two strangers hunting together. 

It's gone from horror to fantasy.  Hunting is now an an adventure not something to be feared.  Monsters don't seem to be scary anymore because they all have sob stories and are really just misunderstood.

I think that is also what is turning me off the spin off. 

Dean is the the only character that hasn't really made the transition yet, so its making him the odd man out. 

Here's the link

http://veneredirimmel.tumblr.com/post/166978489150/i-wanted-to-expand-on-the-idea-i-have-seen

Thanks for the link! This was a good read but it honestly depressed me a little when you realize how much the show has changed and not necessarily for the better :(

[Pondlass1]

Thanks also for link.  I find myself watching early seasons most of the time.  I liked the gritty dark tragic story we got back then .

Carver gave us soap, Dabb just wants shock & awe without substance or sense. 

[flyinghigh]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Actually, I found Dean and Jody's interaction in this ep kind of cold.  It was like two strangers hunting together. 

Yes!! There was definitely something off about it. it was soo noticeable - even in the first viewing - I mean I didn't have to look for "nuances" to hit it!!

My initial reaction was - Jody (the actress, actually - whatever) is in this episode to promote the spin off - which I am not looking forward to after this episode's Jody's slap-on-Dean's-face kind of attitude. 

Its not just Jody. 

IMO - if any character - or actor - thinks or behaves like he/she can promote his or her character - n this case - spin off - at the expense of Sam  and Dean, that person needs to have his head examined. 

I know this might be an unpopular opinion - I don't watch this show for the so-called- "fan favourites" .  I belong to that group of fans who watch SPN for Sam and Dean. Jensen and Jared have worked their a** off for the past 13 years to bring us this show, worked hard and for long hours to ensure this show remains on air. Today some "fan- favouite" who works for 3 seconds in three episodes becomes more important??? His entry is the most awaited entry.!! Really???

I get when Sam and Dean are not on the same page.  Jared said in a recent con - Sam and Dean are like ying and yan - I had read this difference in their characters long time ago  - and I agree with it. That is why, IMO, we get such heated arguments from fans - even though so many times, both are right from their own perspectives.  

ok- correction here - Dean is more right than Sam - IMO.- always.  But that is a different discussion. 

Point being  this show belongs to Sam and Dean - not Jody, or Crowley or Lucifer or Castiel.

[flyinghigh]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Overall, giving all the monsters sob stories and misunderstood woobie backgrounds negates the premise of the show. Why do they hunt and why should that be a good thing? It makes the Winchesters the monsters basically. Oh, I know, we`re supposed to ignore this for the random monster episodes but sorry, ain`t that easy. It`s like opening Pandora`s box. 

My thoughts exactly!!

I like Jack. But if we are looking for background stories - there must be so many who may be having their own reasons - and very valid circumstantial reasons or otherwise - to become what they had become.

I think that is the main reason why I  understood Dean's perspective - after all Jack is half Lucifer's son. So however cute and adorable and vulnerable and innocent he might be, a distinction has to be made between humans and monsters.

6 hours ago, FlickChick said:

And Dean, especially as the oldest hunter (since Bobby and Rufus are gone), doesn't fit in with his sage advice borne of experience. Yes, I believe that is one of the reasons that Dean specifically might be shown as a monster somewhat this season. 

Yes. 

[companionenvy]

4 hours ago, flyinghigh said:

I like Jack. But if we are looking for background stories - there must be so many who may be having their own reasons - and very valid circumstantial reasons or otherwise - to become what they had become.

I think that is the main reason why I  understood Dean's perspective - after all Jack is half Lucifer's son. So however cute and adorable and vulnerable and innocent he might be, a distinction has to be made between humans and monsters.

I think the question is how we -- and Sam and Dean -- define "monster."  Clearly, it isn't just "supernatural being," because then Cas would count, and possibly even supernaturally affected humans like psychics.

It seems to me that the show, and the Winchesters, draw a distinction between species whose natural state of being is to harm humans -- i.e vampires, ruguru, and kitsune -- and species/beings that are powered, perhaps dangerously so, but in a way that doesn't necessarily involve harming innocents - i.e, shifters and witches. The Winchesters have gone up against shifters, but when they wind up taking care of a shifter baby, they don't treat it like a monster, and  Samuel Campbell even gives it to one of his relatives to raise. I don't think a vampire baby would have gotten the same treatment, even if Sam and Dean couldn't bring themselves to kill a a baby of any type.  Similarly, while Dean "hates witches," his and Sam's reaction to Tasha Banes suggests that unless they're encountering the witch because they're on a case involving one, they don't think simply being a witch is justification to kill that person.

Now, we have had "good" vampires, and the ruguru and kitsune episodes, while they end with the death of a person who has killed, also suggest the possibility - albeit a remote one -- that a member of that species could, with difficulty, choose to reject their nature. I think, though, that the show, and Sam and Dean, are OK with the idea of taking a guilty until proven innocent response to creatures of this type. Yes, there's the odd vampire who decides to live off cow's blood, or the kitsune who only feeds off corpses, but that's such a rare exception that killing them unless there's any sign that this is an exception is the way to go. That's why (super unpopular opinion time), I didn't have a problem with Sam's decision to join the BMOL, Sure, he should have asked more questions about the parameters of the BMOL's "we have eradicated all monsters from Britain, and will now do the same here" approach (which frankly never made sense -- there are no ghosts in Britain?), but when the Brits talked about beings they had wiped out, it was, IIRC, pretty much always beings from the "monster until proven otherwise" category.  The second a case comes up in which the monster occupies grayer territory, Sam and Dean refuse to go along. 

To me, what makes Jack very different from the other beings who might have background stories and reasons for their actions is that Jack has not killed. Once you start killing innocents, your sad childhood and lonely life no longer matters. Until then, Jack, as the child of an angel and a human -- even though that angel is Lucifer -- gets benefit of the doubt.  If Kelly had been a serial killer, we wouldn't automatically assume her kid was evil. The fact that Jack's angel part comes from Lucifer doesn't mean he's doomed to evil, either. Although that may also be an unpopular opinion. 

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Res said:

Yep. It was at a con. JIB I think a couple of years ago. He said it very sardonically. I was shocked and very sad after the shock wore off.

Honestly, I’ve thought both Jared and Jensen have only been in it for the money since at least S8 and S9! It can’t have been for the writing considering how terribly both were written under Carver, or the “petty little jerks” era as @DittyDotDot likes to call it.

[Res]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Honestly, I’ve thought both Jared and Jensen have only been in it for the money since at least S8 and S9! It can’t have been for the writing considering how terribly both were written under Carver, or the “petty little jerks” era as @DittyDotDot likes to call it.

I had the exact same thoughts. Plus, they both have young, growing families so a steady paycheck is a blessing during that time.