Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Mulva]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I think it was all three of them deciding to be stubborn. I'd guess since John told Sam if he walked out the door he was out, so John was sticking to his threat hoping Sam would come running back on his own; Sam figured since John told him to stay gone and since no one reached out to him, he figured they didn't want him to reach out to them either; Dean figured since Sam didn't try to reach out, Sam didn't want to hear from him.

IMO, it was a stubborn circle of all of them figuring the other didn't want contact and none of them wanting to be the first to cave. Because...stubborn men!

And the fault still lies with the one who kicked his own teenaged son out in the middle of the night, not with the teenager.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Mulva said:

And the fault still lies with the one who kicked his own teenaged son out in the middle of the night, not with the teenager.

In Bugs, Dean tells Sam, "I remember that fight.  In fact, I seem to recall a few choice phrases coming out of your mouth."

John was wrong to kick Sam out, but I dont' think all the fault for that fight in just on John ..  I think Sam gave as good as he got. 

An argument can only take place with two people participating.  

It's reminds me of the argument Sam and Dean had during Scarecrow.  Both said hurtful things, so one of them had to reach out and bridge that gap.  It was not more on one or the other.  

[Katy M]

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

In Bugs, Dean tells Sam, "I remember that fight.  In fact, I seem to recall a few choice phrases coming out of your mouth."

John was wrong to kick Sam out, but I dont' think all the fault for that fight in just on John ..  I think Sam gave as good as he got. 

An argument can only take place with two people participating.  

It's reminds me of the argument Sam and Dean had during Scarecrow.  Both said hurtful things, so one of them had to reach out and bridge that gap.  It was not more on one or the other.  

I totally agree that Sam probably gave as good as he got.  I tend to think John started the argument, though, as going to college shouldn't necessitate one.  I also think this one differs from the one in Scarecrow.  We saw the argument and scarecrow, but we've only heard about the Stanford fight.  But, nowhere in the Scarecrow argument did either one of them say you can't come back, or stay gone.  They just left to do two different things.  Neither one of them were in the wrong in that.  Nothing in the Scarecrow argument would make me, as an onlooker, think that either one of them thought the other wouldn't be glad to see      the other in the future.  In Bugs, Sam said "Truth is, even if we do find dad, I doubt he's even going to want to see me."  He clearly believed that his dad absolutely meant it to not come back, even though I think it was probably said more out of anger than as an actual directive.

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, Mulva said:

And the fault still lies with the one who kicked his own teenaged son out in the middle of the night, not with the teenager.

Was it really in the middle of the night? I honestly don't remember, not that it matters I guess what time of day it was but that seems like an odd time to be having a discussion unless it followed some hunt they had just finished.

At any rate I think the dialogue in pilot is vague and can be interpreted a lot of ways depending on perspectives and sympathies. I mean just because Dean asks if Sam would've answered the phone doesn't mean that Sam had at any time not done so or wouldn't have and just because Dean says he never bothered Sam or asked him for anything for 2 years doesn't say they never spoke or saw each other IMO it just says he wasn't bothering Sam to research for or asking for hunting backup. JMO

Edited May 1, 2017 by trxr4kids

[Katy M]

43 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Was it really in the middle of the night? I honestly don't remember, not that it matters I guess what time of day it was but that seems like an odd time to be having a discussion unless it followed some hunt they had just finished.

It was dark out.  How middle of the night it was is anyone's guess.

[trxr4kids]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It was dark out.  How middle of the night it was is anyone's guess.

I now keep picturing it as A dark and stormy night, Sam huddled under an overpass to shield against freezing rain, shivering in his threadbare hoodie trying to ignore both the freezing rain that had seeped into his worn sneakers as he fled into the night and the gnawing hunger he felt but even that was preferable to another fricking bowl of spaghettio's. Anyway John's an assbutt. ;)

Edited May 1, 2017 by trxr4kids
missing it

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

John was wrong to kick Sam out, but I dont' think all the fault for that fight in just on John ..  I think Sam gave as good as he got. 

An argument can only take place with two people participating.  

While they both may have said somethings they regret, the fault for the argument escalating to the point where John kicked Sam out lies completely on John.  He was the parent.  Not Sam.  

ETA: like @Mulva already said.

Edited May 1, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
just rehashing others it seems.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, trxr4kids said:

Was it really in the middle of the night? I honestly don't remember, not that it matters I guess what time of day it was but that seems like an odd time to be having a discussion unless it followed some hunt they had just finished.

IIRC, the only time it was discussed as being at night was in Sam's Heaven visit.  They were on a dark street, and Dean said "This is one of your happy memories". 

Quote

Dean had walked outside into daylight, but it’s now night. Sam joins Dean in the middle of the street across from an old house with a wrap-around porch. When they turn to look at the shack they’d just left, it’s gone. Sam obviously remembers where they are. It takes Dean a moment but he also figures it out.

DEAN: What memory is this?

SAM: (obviously lying) No idea. (He sniffs.) Alright, come on. Dean… Road. God. Remember?

DEAN: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. This? (He looks at Sam accusingly.) This is the night you ditched us for Stanford, isn’t it? This is your idea of heaven? Wow. (He laughs painfully) This was one of the worst nights of my life.

It doesn't really say it was in the middle of the night. It could have been after sunset at 7 pm and not at 2 in the morning.

I mean I guess that might not make a material difference but I think it does change where sympathies may or may not lie with John or Sam. If the perception is that John kicked out a 19 year old (which I think Sam must have been 19 when he left because he was 22 when he left school to go with Dean and was interviewing for law school so I think puts him at junior in college?) Anyway, it's not like John threw a 15 or 16 year old out of the house, so for me that changes the perception of things.  

ETA: I'm not saying what John did was right by telling him he can't come back. I'm saying there is a difference between the 19 year old who figured out how to score a full ride to Stanford and his ability to find a way to live vs a 16 or 17 year old who has no way to really support himself. 

That said, John is an asshole no matter what LOL

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That said, John is an asshole no matter what LOL

A sentiment that shockingly enough the majority of the fandom agree on, lol.

[catrox14]

52 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I now keep picturing it as A dark and stormy night, Sam huddled under an overpass to shield against freezing rain, shivering in his threadbare hoodie trying to ignore both the freezing rain that had seeped into his worn sneakers as he fled into the night and the gnawing hunger he felt but even that was preferable to another fricking bowl of spaghettio's. Anyway John's an assbutt. ;)

And I think this is exactly what some viewers probably think about. I do think that the idea of John telling him if he leaves to not come back does invoke a tragic scene of Sam with nothing but the clothes on his back.

I don't see it that way because I go back to the fact that Sam scored a full ride scholarship and I would think he squirreled away enough money to hop a bus straight to Palo Alto.

[trxr4kids]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see it that way because I go back to the fact that Sam scored a full ride scholarship and I would think he squirreled away enough money to hop a bus straight to Palo Alto.

Yeah, I don't really see it that way either, I was just messing around. ; )

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Yeah, I don't really see it that way either, I was just messing around. ; )

Oh I know you were.

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see it that way because I go back to the fact that Sam scored a full ride scholarship and I would think he squirreled away enough money to hop a bus straight to Palo Alto.

And even if not, Sam hitchhikes on a regular basis with no problem.  And, he could have been quite close when he told them.  I'm not really worried about his physical well-being when he was kicked out.  I just think it was a jerk-y thing to do on John's part.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

And even if not, Sam hitchhikes on a regular basis with no problem.  And, he could have been quite close when he told them.  I'm not really worried about his physical well-being when he was kicked out.  I just think it was a jerk-y thing to do on John's part.

Oh that's for sure re John.

Heh, it would be kind of funny if they were in like Modesto when they had the big fight.  LOL.

I was thinking too, wouldn't Sam just boost a car if he didn't have money for a bus?

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was thinking too, wouldn't Sam just boost a car if he didn't have money for a bus?

I don't think he would have.  I think once he decided to leave the life, he would have lived pretty much on the straight and narrow.  If he got caught stealing a car, he would have lost his scholarship.  He would have a felony conviction which would make him ineligible to be a lawyer.  No way would he risk the future he just lost his family for on stealing a car when there were other ways to get where he was going.

Not to mention in Scarecrow, he seemed a bit ashamed of stealing a car.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Katy M

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think he would have.  I think once he decided to leave the life, he would have lived pretty much on the straight and narrow.  If he got caught stealing a car, he would have lost his scholarship.  He would have a felony conviction which would make him ineligible to be a lawyer.  No way would he risk the future he just lost his family for on stealing a car when there were other ways to get where he was going.

Not to mention in Scarecrow, he seemed a bit ashamed of stealing a car.

Maybe so. 

Which begs the question, at what point did Sam decide that stealing cars would be a matter of course for him? I mean how many cars has he stolen at this point? Like 10 probably?

Also, was Sam committing credit card fraud as a teen? Or was that just John and Dean? Or did he just get lucky and not get caught before he went to school?

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[Dobian]

I want them to bring Bela back, I thought that character got the raw end of the stick.  It's really the only thing that ever bugged me about this show where I yelled, "Do Over!".  Yeah, Lauren Cohan does Walking Dead now but she's had the time to work in a D-movie or two and she's only in about a third of the episodes anyway.

[Katy M]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe so. 

Which begs the question, at what point did Sam decide that stealing cars would be a matter of course for him? I mean how many cars has he stolen at this point? Like 10 probably?

Also, was Sam committing credit card fraud as a teen? Or was that just John and Dean? Or did he just get lucky and not get caught before he went to school?

I would imagine John did all the credit card fraud.  And, even if Sam filled out some of the paperwork, how would the authorities know which one of them filled it out?  Whoever had the card would be blamed, and that would have most likely been John, and later, Dean. 

Probably just got easier after the first one, although we did see him renting two cars in Season 3, so maybe it was after Dean went to Hell that he just said, screw it, and went whole hog.  But, he did steal a car in season 2, so you got me.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Which begs the question, at what point did Sam decide that stealing cars would be a matter of course for him? I mean how many cars has he stolen at this point? Like 10 probably?

Heh. I'd say he's probably stolen more than that - in season 7 they blasted through a bunch, and I'd bet that Sam stole the car as often as Dean did. As for when Sam started to do it as a matter of course, I would guess somewhere around late season 2 when he started to change his mind about wanting a normal life. It was likely part of Sam's deciding he probably wouldn't go back to normal, so he might as well embrace it. I think even Chuck addressed the shift indirectly in "Swan Song."

Quote

Sam used to insist on honest work, but now he hustles pool, like his brother.

So somewhere along the line, Sam just accepted that, and now it's so "normal" for him, he even taught Claire how to use credit card fraud to get by without even a second thought.

So I basically guess that Sam decided that stealing cars, hustling pool, and credit card fraud was just par for the course about the same time he decided to embrace the hunting life in earnest... and so passed that along to Claire when she decided the same.

[SueB]

I presume the shift occurred in S3, when he had to take on some of the roles Dean did in prep for his impending death. Which... how SUCKY WAS THAT! Just saying.  Not that he had to do the work but every action was probably like a knife to Sam's heart.  

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Heh. I'd say he's probably stolen more than that - in season 7 they blasted through a bunch, and I'd bet that Sam stole the car as often as Dean did. As for when Sam started to do it as a matter of course, I would guess somewhere around late season 2 when he started to change his mind about wanting a normal life. It was likely part of Sam's deciding he probably wouldn't go back to normal, so he might as well embrace it. I think even Chuck addressed the shift indirectly in "Swan Song."

So somewhere along the line, Sam just accepted that, and now it's so "normal" for him, he even taught Claire how to use credit card fraud to get by without even a second thought.

So I basically guess that Sam decided that stealing cars, hustling pool, and credit card fraud was just par for the course about the same time he decided to embrace the hunting life in earnest... and so passed that along to Claire when she decided the same.

This sounds about right to me LOL. I forgot about all the cars in s7 LOL

[AwesomO4000]

29 minutes ago, SueB said:

I presume the shift occurred in S3, when he had to take on some of the roles Dean did in prep for his impending death.

That makes sense, too.

Edited to add:

Quote

catrox14: I forgot about all the cars in s7 LOL

My favorite was the first one - the minivan - with the My Little Pony thing on the rearview mirror. Dean cutting that down and throwing it in the back seat and its sad little "eeeee" will never not be funny to me... and then of course right after that was Dean's "All Out of Love" lip sync, oh and "Nobody puts Baby in a corner," so all around awesome.

Edited May 1, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[mertensia]

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

Point of fact, Travis waited for Jack to wake up before attempting to set him on fire in Metamorphosis.

He didn't say that he knew for a fact that Sam wouldn't have answered.  You may be right, but you're stating a bunch of things as fact that are actually your opinion.

It's implied heavily enough for me to take it as fact. 

[rue721]

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe so. 

Which begs the question, at what point did Sam decide that stealing cars would be a matter of course for him? I mean how many cars has he stolen at this point? Like 10 probably?

Also, was Sam committing credit card fraud as a teen? Or was that just John and Dean? Or did he just get lucky and not get caught before he went to school?

I think that Sam sees the fraud, stealing, etc, as part of the hunting lifestyle. When he didn't want that life, he didn't want to do those things. When he accepted/embraced that life, he accepted/embraced that stuff, too. And now when he's inducting people into that life, he's teaching them that stuff along with all the other stuff they need to know in order to hunt. I think for him, it's just part and parcel.

In terms of stealing/etc, Dean was apparently just a terrible thief even in high school, so eh. I doubt they were involved in anything too rough as kids. Probably just normal kid-level crimes lol.

Also, there's the model of Alex to go by. She's trying to be such a straight arrow presumably because her "family" (the vampires) were a wreck. I think Sam reacted similarly -- was extra uptight and extra straight arrow as a reaction to the chaos around him.

[catrox14]

From the Spoilers thread and I am spoiler barring this.

Rant Warning:

Be advised, this is a hard core rant about Dean. A bitter, angry  unkind to the show rant. If you don't want to be offended by the language I will be using then feel free to steer clear. I am putting this  under spoilers because it's related to the clip released about 12.20

I've been pretty good about trying to be patient with the show and how it's been presenting Dean thus far in s12, but I'm at my limit :

Again, spoilers for 12.20
 

Spoiler

 

I have put up Dean being sidelined, written out of episodes almost whole cloth with no explanations. I've put up with Dean being made to apologize for things IMO he didn't have to apologize for, but this. This just too much. It's worse than Demon!Dean or Moc!Dean. 

Dean is asking Sam if Sam can fix the fucking Colt, as if Dean has NO IDEA or seems to not even be willing to try. Fuck you, writers. Just, fuck you.

Dean has been the keeper and protector of the Winchesters Arsenal. He is the  shown almost exclusively maintaining their arsenal. Dean is an expert marksman. Dean made his first sawed off shotgun when he was in the 6th grade, FFS.  Dean has an engineering and mechanically inclined mind which he has put to good use rebuilding the Impala, maintaining the Impala, creating EMF detectors out of Walkmans. Dean is inventive and creative. Dean is capable of reading and doing research on Lore as much as anyone.

And you fuckers in the writing room, have now based on the  clip from 12.20 have ceded THE ONE THING Dean had left to someone else. This isn't bitch/Jerk either. I would be pitching the same fit if this was given to Bobby, John, Garth, Jody, Donna or Samuel Fucking Colt himself.  Why, show? Why are you doing this to Dean? 

Maybe I'll get a nice swerve and Sam will say, "No man, this is your thing. I can help you with the sigils but this is not in my wheelhouse". I have absolutely NO real belief the show is actually going to do that but this IMO is the ultimate insult to Dean. The show has one chance to get me off the ledge of this Chrysler Building size Stack o Bittercakes.

Godsfrakkingdammit, I'm so pissed off right now.

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by catrox14

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

From the Spoilers thread and I am spoiler barring this.

Rant Warning:

Be advised, this is a hard core rant about Dean. A bitter, angry  unkind to the show rant. If you don't want to be offended by the language I will be using then feel free to steer clear. I am putting this  under spoilers because it's related to the clip released about 12.20

I've been pretty good about trying to be patient with the show and how it's been presenting Dean thus far in s12, but I'm at my limit :

Again, spoilers for 12.20
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I have put up Dean being sidelined, written out of episodes almost whole cloth with no explanations. I've put up with Dean being made to apologize for things IMO he didn't have to apologize for, but this. This just too much. It's worse than Demon!Dean or Moc!Dean. 

Dean is asking Sam if Sam can fix the fucking Colt, as if Dean has NO IDEA or seems to not even be willing to try. Fuck you, writers. Just, fuck you.

Dean has been the keeper and protector of the Winchesters Arsenal. He is the  shown almost exclusively maintaining their arsenal. Dean is an expert marksman. Dean made his first sawed off shotgun when he was in the 6th grade, FFS.  Dean has an engineering and mechanically inclined mind which he has put to good use rebuilding the Impala, maintaining the Impala, creating EMF detectors out of Walkmans. Dean is inventive and creative. Dean is capable of reading and doing research on Lore as much as anyone.

And you fuckers in the writing room, have now based on the  clip from 12.20 have ceded THE ONE THING Dean had left to someone else. This isn't bitch/Jerk either. I would be pitching the same fit if this was given to Bobby, John, Garth, Jody, Donna or Samuel Fucking Colt himself.  Why, show? Why are you doing this to Dean? 

Maybe I'll get a nice swerve and Sam will say, "No man, this is your thing. I can help you with the sigils but this is not in my wheelhouse". I have absolutely NO real belief the show is actually going to do that but this IMO is the ultimate insult to Dean. The show has one chance to get me off the ledge of this Chrysler Building size Stack o Bittercakes.

Godsfrakkingdammit, I'm so pissed off right now.

 

 

 

Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!

[Res]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

From the Spoilers thread and I am spoiler barring this.

Rant Warning:

Be advised, this is a hard core rant about Dean. A bitter, angry  unkind to the show rant. If you don't want to be offended by the language I will be using then feel free to steer clear. I am putting this  under spoilers because it's related to the clip released about 12.20

I've been pretty good about trying to be patient with the show and how it's been presenting Dean thus far in s12, but I'm at my limit :

Again, spoilers for 12.20
 

  Hide contents

 

I have put up Dean being sidelined, written out of episodes almost whole cloth with no explanations. I've put up with Dean being made to apologize for things IMO he didn't have to apologize for, but this. This just too much. It's worse than Demon!Dean or Moc!Dean. 

Dean is asking Sam if Sam can fix the fucking Colt, as if Dean has NO IDEA or seems to not even be willing to try. Fuck you, writers. Just, fuck you.

Dean has been the keeper and protector of the Winchesters Arsenal. He is the  shown almost exclusively maintaining their arsenal. Dean is an expert marksman. Dean made his first sawed off shotgun when he was in the 6th grade, FFS.  Dean has an engineering and mechanically inclined mind which he has put to good use rebuilding the Impala, maintaining the Impala, creating EMF detectors out of Walkmans. Dean is inventive and creative. Dean is capable of reading and doing research on Lore as much as anyone.

And you fuckers in the writing room, have now based on the  clip from 12.20 have ceded THE ONE THING Dean had left to someone else. This isn't bitch/Jerk either. I would be pitching the same fit if this was given to Bobby, John, Garth, Jody, Donna or Samuel Fucking Colt himself.  Why, show? Why are you doing this to Dean? 

Maybe I'll get a nice swerve and Sam will say, "No man, this is your thing. I can help you with the sigils but this is not in my wheelhouse". I have absolutely NO real belief the show is actually going to do that but this IMO is the ultimate insult to Dean. The show has one chance to get me off the ledge of this Chrysler Building size Stack o Bittercakes.

Godsfrakkingdammit, I'm so pissed off right now.

 

 

 

THIS and then some!!!!

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

From the Spoilers thread and I am spoiler barring this.

Rant Warning:

Be advised, this is a hard core rant about Dean. A bitter, angry  unkind to the show rant. If you don't want to be offended by the language I will be using then feel free to steer clear. I am putting this  under spoilers because it's related to the clip released about 12.20

I've been pretty good about trying to be patient with the show and how it's been presenting Dean thus far in s12, but I'm at my limit :

Again, spoilers for 12.20
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I have put up Dean being sidelined, written out of episodes almost whole cloth with no explanations. I've put up with Dean being made to apologize for things IMO he didn't have to apologize for, but this. This just too much. It's worse than Demon!Dean or Moc!Dean. 

Dean is asking Sam if Sam can fix the fucking Colt, as if Dean has NO IDEA or seems to not even be willing to try. Fuck you, writers. Just, fuck you.

Dean has been the keeper and protector of the Winchesters Arsenal. He is the  shown almost exclusively maintaining their arsenal. Dean is an expert marksman. Dean made his first sawed off shotgun when he was in the 6th grade, FFS.  Dean has an engineering and mechanically inclined mind which he has put to good use rebuilding the Impala, maintaining the Impala, creating EMF detectors out of Walkmans. Dean is inventive and creative. Dean is capable of reading and doing research on Lore as much as anyone.

And you fuckers in the writing room, have now based on the  clip from 12.20 have ceded THE ONE THING Dean had left to someone else. This isn't bitch/Jerk either. I would be pitching the same fit if this was given to Bobby, John, Garth, Jody, Donna or Samuel Fucking Colt himself.  Why, show? Why are you doing this to Dean? 

Maybe I'll get a nice swerve and Sam will say, "No man, this is your thing. I can help you with the sigils but this is not in my wheelhouse". I have absolutely NO real belief the show is actually going to do that but this IMO is the ultimate insult to Dean. The show has one chance to get me off the ledge of this Chrysler Building size Stack o Bittercakes.

Godsfrakkingdammit, I'm so pissed off right now.

 

 

 

Well said.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I've been rewatching some of S5 and S6 - and I gotta say - I didn't think about it at the time I first binge-watched, but after reading the division on this forum recently, I noticed that there were several episodes where Sam was practically non-existent (The End, The Song Remains The Same, Sam Interrupted) or useless even if he was present (99 problems,  Hammer of the Gods.)  I still enjoyed those eps - even though my "favorite" wasn't front and center.  Even when Sam was important to the action, it wasn't necessarily presented as a good thing (My Bloody Valentine).  So IF Dean has been 'sidelined' in the action this year - a sentiment with which I disagree - then I say, stay tuned: it'll turn around*.  

(*and if it's not this year - welcome to the 'Sam party' <//snark>)

[catrox14]

disregard

Edited May 4, 2017 by catrox14

[Idahoforspn]

16 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I've been rewatching some of S5 and S6 - and I gotta say - I didn't think about it at the time I first binge-watched, but after reading the division on this forum recently, I noticed that there were several episodes where Sam was practically non-existent (The End, The Song Remains The Same, Sam Interrupted) or useless even if he was present (99 problems,  Hammer of the Gods.)  I still enjoyed those eps - even though my "favorite" wasn't front and center.  Even when Sam was important to the action, it wasn't necessarily presented as a good thing (My Bloody Valentine).  So IF Dean has been 'sidelined' in the action this year - a sentiment with which I disagree - then I say, stay tuned: it'll turn around*.  

(*and if it's not this year - welcome to the 'Sam party' <//snark>)

Nope.....if it continues as a Sam party, I won't stick around! Count it as one more previously avid viewer Dabb has driven away.

[Diane]

16 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I've been rewatching some of S5 and S6 - and I gotta say - I didn't think about it at the time I first binge-watched, but after reading the division on this forum recently, I noticed that there were several episodes where Sam was practically non-existent (The End, The Song Remains The Same, Sam Interrupted) or useless even if he was present (99 problems,  Hammer of the Gods.)  I still enjoyed those eps - even though my "favorite" wasn't front and center.  Even when Sam was important to the action, it wasn't necessarily presented as a good thing (My Bloody Valentine).  So IF Dean has been 'sidelined' in the action this year - a sentiment with which I disagree - then I say, stay tuned: it'll turn around*.  

(*and if it's not this year - welcome to the 'Sam party' <//snark>)

So true, I am rewatching and in S5 now.

[shang yiet]

I am quite disappointed Lucifer no longer has a special relationship with Sam. Now he's all about his spawn and I don't give a damn about the baby.

[CluelessDrifter]

16 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I've been rewatching some of S5 and S6 - and I gotta say - I didn't think about it at the time I first binge-watched, but after reading the division on this forum recently, I noticed that there were several episodes where Sam was practically non-existent (The End, The Song Remains The Same, Sam Interrupted) or useless even if he was present (99 problems,  Hammer of the Gods.)  I still enjoyed those eps - even though my "favorite" wasn't front and center.  Even when Sam was important to the action, it wasn't necessarily presented as a good thing (My Bloody Valentine).  So IF Dean has been 'sidelined' in the action this year - a sentiment with which I disagree - then I say, stay tuned: it'll turn around*.  

(*and if it's not this year - welcome to the 'Sam party' <//snark>)

Season 5 - Sam was on a redemption arc for releasing Lucifer after Sam's self-appointed Chosen One, i.e. pride comes before the fall arc in season 4.  He put Lucifer back in the cage, thus completing his redemption arc, and this is after he had Cas stop Dean from doing the same thing.  That the arcs follow Sam is why Dean got more kills . . . to balance it.   IMO of course.

[CluelessDrifter]

Quote

Yes and no. Last Season, for the first time ever, I thought the MOTW episodes were just a major disappointment. Normally, I think they are the strongest part of the show but in Season 11 I found them to be really bad overall. And the Dabb-penned Red Meat was one of the worst. So when he was announced as showrunner, I was really afraid how things were gonna go.

The first episode, again penned by Dabb? Meh, had a lot of things I`ve come to expect from him as eye-roll-worthy but the Season was somewhat okay till Christmas break. Nothing to write home about and Perez right away got on my shitlist but I thought by far and large the Season was boring yet inoffensive.

The mid-Season-Opener, Dabb once more, was also not my thing. He has a penchant for doing certain tropes I hate. But the next two eps I liked.

And then it started, like my worst fears I had when Dabb was announced came true and then some. Episode after episode after episode. The worse it got and the longer it went on, I noticed, of course, but I didn`t wonder. Or rather I only wondered in the reverse, like why wasn`t the first half that bad?

Honestly, I never thought it had narrative reasons. Not once. The show is anvillicious as hell. When they want to make a point, everyone sees it. So I didn`t look for in-story-reasons. On this show, that`s not really necessary. I mean, for headcanons, sure but not for intended storylines. Those basically jump in your face. Since there was nothing there in way of explanation onscreen, I only came away with an explanation offscreen.    

Personally, I am no fan of Dabb as a show runner, and I was the opposite.  I found the MotW episodes a welcome respite from the myth arc episodes last year for the first time in the history of this show.  Outside of the first two episodes, I found the myth arc unlikable and confusing.  I didn't like that Sam was getting visions and then decided to open the cage.  I didn't like that Cas agreed to be Lucifer's vessel.  I didn't like the non-con relationship they had going with Amara and Dean.  That last one was also a myth arc that didn't go anywhere.  What did she mean, she wanted Dean to be a part of her?  Did she want him to voluntarily let him have her soul?  Did she want to turn him into an immortal god and have him rule alongside her forever?  What?  

I think the Dean/Amara arc was made weird and then fizzled out because Dabb got involved more in the myth arcs as the season went along and unofficially took over on where they were going around the mid-point of last season, roughly around the time Dean got sidelined by smiting sickness (something that didn't affect Dean or Sam after the angels did the mass smiting right outside the warehouse where they were in WHF - maybe because Chuck was there, maybe not.  Who knows?).  That's when Lucifer was released, something I really did not want or like and still don't like.  

Then you have the final episodes when Dean and Sam got completely shoved out of the story as soon as Chuck got involved.  You had Metatron sacrificing himself to save Lucifer in AiF; Dean and Sam counseling Lucifer and Chuck and then being sent to recruit demons and witches and Lucifer/Cas recruiting the angels - it was the all-powerful beings giving it a shot in WHF; and if it weren't for collecting spirits for the soul bomb, a very flawed idea, because if detonated, it would've blown up the planet, Dean and Sam would've had nothing to do in the finale except when Dean went to meet with Amara.  The rest was taken up by Toni and moping around about the end of the world/loss of Dean.  Now did I like the talks that Dean had with Chuck in those final episodes and that Rowena had with Chuck in the finale?  Yeah, I did, but the rest?  I think it set up what we're seeing this season with Dean and Sam being almost kicked out of their own show.  We don't have their POV.  We don't have the story lines revolving around them except for their personal ones and chasing after the nephilim.  What we have been given is ways they both look bad.  

I've said this before on another site, but if we saw what Ruby did behind the scenes in season 4, if we knew what her plans were all along and knew why she was getting Sam to use his powers, it would've made Sam look even worse than he did for the decisions he made in trying to do what he thought was the right thing.  And it makes Sam look worse for working with the BMoL now that we're clued in on every little evil thing the BMoL are doing.  The same goes for Dean reluctantly working with them too, and that's not even getting into them not knowing about Crowley still having Lucifer.  

I assume that Dean and Sam are still having conversations off-screen about the things that would give us their point of view, but we're not seeing them, like I'm sure they spoke about what happened in the garden when Dean met with Amara and Chuck, because Dean had to explain Mary being there and him not being dead somehow, but we didn't see it.  Sam must've told Dean about the Colt and how the BMoL got it, because Dean wasn't all that surprised to see, just happy, but we didn't see it.  We've yet to see them really talk about Mary in any real meaningful way except for in The Raid when Sam asked Dean if he wanted to talk about it, and it was a brief conversation.  A couple minutes here and there wouldn't have gone amiss.  It's these things that the show thrives on for both characters, and they're things we aren't getting for whatever reason this season.  

So, I have problems with this season and Dabb as a creative show runner.  It's not that I don't.  I just also think that if so much is going on off-screen this season, I need to look a little bit harder to understand what's on-screen when it's there, and in a season when there isn't a lot in the myth arcs that the Winchesters know about, I'm going to go with Dean not getting kills while working with the BMoL as something of an anvil, so I can continue to enjoy this show.  

Edited May 7, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[DittyDotDot]

52 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Personally, I am no fan of Dabb as a show runner, and I was the opposite.  I found the MotW episodes a welcome respite from the myth arc episodes last year for the first time in the history of this show.  Outside of the first two episodes, I found the myth arc unlikable and confusing.  I didn't like that Sam was getting visions and then decided to open the cage.  I didn't like that Cas agreed to be Lucifer's vessel.  I didn't like the non-con relationship they had going with Amara and Dean.  That last one was also a myth arc that didn't go anywhere.  What did she mean, she wanted Dean to be a part of her?  Did she want him to voluntarily let him have her soul?  Did she want to turn him into an immortal god and rule alongside her forever?  What?  

Not to talk you out of your dislike for Dabb as a showrunner but all that was set up and happening when Carver was still running the show, not Dabb. It's unclear exactly when Dabb took over in S11, but my feeling is sometime around the winter hiatus.

Edited May 7, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[CluelessDrifter]

21 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Not to talk you out of your dislike for Dabb as a showrunner but all that was set up and happening when Carver was still running the show, not Dabb. It's unclear exactly when Dabb took over in S11, but my feeling is sometime around the winter hiatus.

I would agree that's when he unofficially officially took the helm, but I think it wasn't an instantaneous change.  I think there was more of Dabb being involved before the take over happened.  I think it's why he was up front and center with Carver before the season started in interviews like this one: http://www.screenfad.com/supernatural/supernatural-comic-con-press-room-season-11-spoilers-40312

Also, note that he wrote 11.02 Form and Void, which set up the Sam visions/ Cas/ Lucifer arc, and he knew where it was going with his 'ties into their past,' comment before the season even started.  Carver set up the Dean/Amara arc, and it was not fleshed out at all, no details were added to it through out the season other than there was this inexplainable bond.  There was little build up or follow through on it too, with the exception of the finale talk, which was the only way it could really be resolved with minimal effort.  Don't get me wrong.  I don't think Carver was perfect.  Canon went out the window in his era and story line follow through was lacking, but I don't blame him for what happened to that arc or how Season 11 ended. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I would agree that's when he unofficially officially took the helm, but I think it wasn't an instantaneous change.  I think there was more of Dabb being involved before the take over happened.  I think it's why he was up front and center with Carver before the season started in interviews like this one: http://www.screenfad.com/supernatural/supernatural-comic-con-press-room-season-11-spoilers-40312

Also, note that he wrote 11.02 Form and Void, which set up the Sam visions/ Cas/ Lucifer arc, and he knew where it was going with his 'ties into their past,' comment before the season even started.  If he set up that arc, then Carver set up the Dean/Amara arc, and it was not fleshed out at all, no details were added to it through out the season other than there was this inexplainable bond.  There was little build up or follow through on it too, with the exception of the finale talk, which was the only way it could really be resolved with minimal effort.  Don't get me wrong.  I don't think Carver was perfect.  Canon went out the window in his era and story line follow through was lacking, but I don't blame him for what happened to that arc or how Season 11 ended. 

Dabb has been around since S4 and he's been credited with a lot of their big mythology ideas for a few years, so I'm quite certain he was very involved. I wasn't suggesting he wasn't around, just that I think a lot of the beginning of S11 is still Carver making the decisions and driving the story. That doesn't mean Dabb is blameless, but since Carver was supposed to be the guy in charge, he's the one I put the responsibility on.

[CluelessDrifter]

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Dabb has been around since S4 and he's been credited with a lot of their big mythology ideas for a few years, so I'm quite certain he was very involved. I wasn't suggesting he wasn't around, just that I think a lot of the beginning of S11 is still Carver making the decisions and driving the story. That doesn't mean Dabb is blameless, but since Carver was supposed to be the guy in charge, he's the one I put the responsibility on.

Okay, but I've agreed with you twice that the mid-way point is when Dabb most likely took the reins on where the rest of the season was going to go (I guess you could say episode 9/10, so not quite midway, but definitely the myth arc episode going into the winter hiatus and everything after that). I just also happen to think that's the reason there was little to no follow through on the Dean/Amara arc, because it wasn't his arc.  The Sam/Lucifer/Cas arc was his, so that's why it got more attention, and he set that up in episode 2 - maybe because he knew 11 was going to be Carver's last and knew the way he wanted season 11 to go - maybe not, but it's the arc that got the most attention in the back half of the season.

I think that the Dean and Amara set up in the premiere is what made Dean talking to Amara have to happen in the finale.  It's why Dean's talk about revenge to the girl in Just My Imagination (11.08 - before the winter hiatus) worked in getting her to forgive Sully.  Dean's speech to Amara in the finale was almost a direct repeat of that speech, so it was telegraphed that's where it was gong before the winter hiatus.  It's just that the details along the way, the build up, and all the things that would've fleshed that story line out to make it less confusing didn't happen, because Dabb had no interest in it other than he needed to follow through on the original set up that Carver gave him, but I can appreciate that your opinion on Dabb differs from mine, and that's okay. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Wayward Son]

Unpopular Opinion Time

I was rewatching Bad Day at Black Rock last night and it reminded me of the fact I really don't consider Jared or Jensen good comedy actors. I think they're amazing actors when it comes to day to day scenes and emotional ones, but the comedy scenes not so much. I think it's partly down to the writing (the shows sense of humour and mine rarely match) and it's partly down to the fact their performances often feel a little too forced and try hard IMO.

[catrox14]

47 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Unpopular Opinion Time

I was rewatching Bad Day at Black Rock last night and it reminded me of the fact I really don't consider Jared or Jensen good comedy actors. I think they're amazing actors when it comes to day to day scenes and emotional ones, but the comedy scenes not so much. I think it's partly down to the writing (the shows sense of humour and mine rarely match) and it's partly down to the fact their performances often feel a little too forced and try hard IMO.

:):):P I keed!!

Edited May 7, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Unpopular Opinion Time

I was rewatching Bad Day at Black Rock last night and it reminded me of the fact I really don't consider Jared or Jensen good comedy actors. I think they're amazing actors when it comes to day to day scenes and emotional ones, but the comedy scenes not so much. I think it's partly down to the writing (the shows sense of humour and mine rarely match) and it's partly down to the fact their performances often feel a little too forced and try hard IMO.

I'll half agree. I don't think Jared is that great with the comedy, but I think Jensen is.

[Wayward Son]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'll half agree. I don't think Jared is that great with the comedy, but I think Jensen is.

Well a half agreement is better than no agreement. ;) 

 But yeah we will have to agree to disagree on Jensen. I often find his attempts at comedy to be way over the top, too slapstick and not at all convincing. They'd be better suited to some cheesy pantomime or something ;) 

[rue721]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'll half agree. I don't think Jared is that great with the comedy, but I think Jensen is.

That's funny, I find the opposite!

I think Jensen goes way too big and looks like he's trying too hard. But I can completely buy Jared's haplessness as Sam.

That said, I don't think either of them are great comedic actors.

[MysteryGuest]

I think there have been a handful of instances where Jensen has taken things a bit too far into slapstick territory, but other than that, I find his comedic timing to be excellent.  

[Aeryn13]

I think the comedy on Bad Day was cute and funny and well-portrayed but IMO the script helped. When the script isn`t there, then it gets iffy.

Overall, I blame the directors for not stopping a lot of comedy improv. If the saying on set really is "no joke too cheap", then someone needs to sit them down and say "oh yes, many, many jokes are way too cheap". And you did the lot of them.

From what I have heard, I like Jensen`s improv in dramatic scenes. He has good instincts for what kind of drama dialogue might or might not work. But the comedy improv from both? I do not like. At all. And that is where a director comes in because actors need to be stopped.

Harrison Ford is a guy you let improv whatever the hell he wants because it turns out to be gold. J2 need a heavier guiding hand when it comes to that. Do the cheap joke for the gag reel and do a serious take for the show.

So I actually believe both have good comedic timing when it comes to acting. But not so much writing. Which is what improv basically is.    

[CluelessDrifter]

On 1/25/2016 at 11:17 AM, Demented Daisy said:

Sorry for the delay.  I started on season 2, but got distracted.  Stupid life keeping me from my research.  ;-)

 

Okie dokie, so here's my definitions, first.

 

Made the plan -- Sam gets credit if he does the research; Dean gets credit if he uses his experience; no one gets credit if they have to change their plans or don't come up with a plan at all.  Or we don't see them come up with a plan.

Saved the people in peril -- a direct save, not indirect.  Whoever gets the kill could also get credit for the save, but I wanted to keep it simpler.  I also counted if Sam or Dean saved the other.

Got the kill -- pretty self-explanatory, I think.  ;-)

 

And here are the numbers:

 

Sam Plans -- 2

Sam Saves -- 4

Sam Kills -- 5

 

Dean Plans -- 2

Dean Saves -- 2

Dean Kills -- 8

 

Joint Plan -- 10

Joint Saves -- 14

Joint Kills -- 1  (Scarecrow -- they torched the tree together.)

 

No Plan -- 8 

No Save -- 2 

No Kill -- 8

 

When they didn't work together, Sam tended to save the people while Dean killed the monster.  But I think the number of times they work together is more significant. *shrug*  Any questions while I work on season 2?

Hey Demented Daisy,

So, I took a crack at Season 1.  Instead of plans, I counted who figured out what they were hunting, and then out of interest who said it first, because when they're brainstorming and figure it out together, only one gets the line to reveal what they're hunting.  If they're told by someone else, like Missouri or John, they found out together, but neither said it first.  The 3rd party did.  A kill is a kill, but a save is a save, so if killing something saves somebody in direct peril, it's counted as both a kill and a save.  To cut it down to one or the other is limiting and paints a different picture, I think.  Also, if the brother-in-peril's direct actions save someone else as well as him, that's considered a save.  If one brother just saves himself, it doesn't count as a save. An incident of saving is counted as 1, so if a plane full of people are saved, that's one incident.

Here are my numbers, and I'll break them down, so you can see how I got them:

Sam - Figured out the monster/ cause of the case in question - 8 (1.01, 1.02, 1.07, 1.14, 1.15 1.17, 1.19, 1.21*)

* - Sam's vision let him know the YED was in Salvation for Rosie - the cause of the case.

Sam - Said what the monster/ cause of the case was 1st - 11 (1.01, 1.02, 1.04, 1.06, 1.07, 1.08**, 1.14, 1.15, 1.17, 1.19, 1.21)

** cursed land, so not a monster, but it was the cause for the case

Sam - Got the kill - 1 (1.01 - He took the spirit where he knew it would be destroyed, that counts as a kill in my book, because he used what he had at his disposal to kill it; whereas with the Minster's wife in Faith, he didn't intend for the reaper to kill the Minister's wife.  It'd be like him getting the kill in the Benders, because he let Kathleen out of her cage)

Sam - Got the save - 11 (1.02 - Dean, Haley, Tom in lair; 1.04 - plane; 1.07 - Reverend; 1.11 - Dean & Emily; 1.12 - kids from rawhead hunt, Dean from reaper; 1.15 - Kathleen during fight in barn; 1.16 - tipped the alter to save Dean & himself, lit the flare that saved Dean, John, and Sam; 1.17 - Harry & Ed during the last fight with the tulpa; 1.22 - getting the Colt and shooting John/YED in the leg, but not killing him, saved Dean and John from the YED)

Dean - Figured out the monster in question - 5 (1.05, 1.10, 1.11, 1.13, 1.22 - Figured out John was possessed)

Dean - Said what the monster/case was 1st - 7 (1.03, 1.05, 1.10, 1.11, 1.13, 1.18, 1.22)

Dean -  Got the kill - 10 (1.02 - wendigo; 1.05 - Bloody Mary spirit; 1.06 - shapeshifter; 1.07 - Hook Man spirit; 1.10 - Dr. Ellicott; 1.12 - rawhead; 1.18 - shtriga; 1.19 - little girl spirit; 1.20 - vampire at the barn; 1.22 - demon he shoots with the Colt)

Dean -  Got the save - 13 (1.01 - Sam with the WiW, Sam at Stanford fire; 1.03 - Lucas; 1.05 - Sam from Bloody Mary; 1.06 - Sam from shapeshifter!Dean; 1.07 - Sam & Lori from the Hook Man; 1.09 - Sam from the poltergeist electrical cord; 1.11 - the couple in the orchard; 1.12 - Layla's first death replacement; 1.17 - Sam after Sam saved Harry & Ed; 1.18 - Adult Sam from shtriga; 1.20 - we hear Sam is with Dean from John, but we only see Dean saving the people in the barn; 1.22 - Sam from Meg's brother)

Figured out the monster in question together - 7 (1.03, 1.04, 1.06, 1.08, 1.12, 1.16, 1.18)

Said what the monster was together - 2, and they were both episodes with someone controlling the 'monster' (1.12 - Dean said reaper first, but Sam said the necklace was controlling it; 1.16 - Dean says Meg is summoning the daevas, and Sam says Meg is working with The Demon)

Got the kill together - 3 (1.13 - the ghost truck; 1.19 - the spirit of the father haunting the painting; 1.22 - Meg Masters - She was on demon life support.  The exorcism pulled the plug on that)

Got the save together - 10 (1.02 - the Collins family in the mines after they're out of the lair; 1.03 - Andrea - Dean went back, kicked in the door, and took care of Lucas, while Sam pulled Andrea out of the tub; 1.08 - the Pike family; 1.09 - Jenny and her kids; 1.14 - Max's Step-Mom in the kitchen; 1.18 - Michael from the shtriga; 1.19 - Sarah; 1.20 - John from Luther; 1.21 - Monica/Holden/Rosie; 1.22 - Meg Masters - They gave her life back to her even though it didn't last for very long, and she said 'thank you,' so she saw it as a save)

Were told what the monster was together - 2 (1.09, 1.20) 

No kills or they weren't the ones who killed - 10 (1.03 - Jake sacrificed himself to stop the spirit; 1.04 - Exorcism; 1.08 - They helped the family survive the curse, but didn't lift it or have to kill anyone/thing; 1.09 - Mary got rid of the poltergeist; 1.11 - Emily torched the scarecrow; 1.14 - Max used the gun on himself; 1.15 - Kathleen killed Pa Bender; 1.16 - Meg lived to see another day as did her daevas; 1.17 - The Tulpa wasn't killed; 1.21 - Nothing was killed)

No saves - 2 (1.10***, 1.13)

*** Dean saves himself from Sam and Dr. Elicott, and Kat and Gavin weren't in peril throughout (ever came into contact with Dr. Ellicott, the threat), so neither gets credit for a save by my definition.  

Edited May 10, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Demented Daisy]

11 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

A kill is a kill, but a save is a save, so if killing something saves somebody in direct peril, it's counted as both a kill and a save.  To cut it down to one or the other is limiting and paints a different picture, I think.

What picture is that?

[CluelessDrifter]

11 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

What picture is that?

A picture where saves aren't counted for what they are, because they're either a kill or a save instead of both.  Saves get missed that way, IMO.

[Demented Daisy]

To each their own.