S06.E10: START

[Marianna]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

 

 

Heck, in season 4, Martha's landlord gave the FBI a sketch of Clark/Phil. It's just dumb that nobody, Stan and Aderholt especially, don't grasp that Clark was likely Phil.

I think they just haven’t done all the math yet. Eventually they’ll figure it out. 

[DrumJunkie]

I think a lot of the hate for Paige is that many expected her to act like an adult.  Having two teenage daughters, I found her performance entirely believable.  Some have criticized HT acting suggesting a limited range, but teenagers expressions aren't as nuanced as an adults.  The emotional development or even the ability to articulate what they are actually feeling, much less understand it, hasn't evolved completely.  All-in-all, I found Paige an integral part of a story about a marriage and the conflicts that raising children bring.

Edited May 31, 2018 by DrumJunkie

[Bannon]

20 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

From various wiki pages:

CODIS: The creation of a national DNA database within the U.S. was first mentioned by the Technical Working Group on DNA Analysis Methods (TWGDAM) in 1989.  In 1990, the FBI began a pilot DNA databasing program with 14 state and local laboratories.

Colin Pitchfork (born 23 March 1960) is a British convicted murderer and rapist. He was the first person convicted of murder based on DNA fingerprinting evidence, and the first to be caught as a result of mass DNA screening. He was arrested on 19 September 1987 and sentenced to life imprisonment on 22 January 1988.

So, needless to say, DNA would not have been used by the FBI in 1987.

https://books.google.com/books?id=OEJemQWU3hsC&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=george+wesley+dna&source=bl&ots=5CqAB165ce&sig=TbvstiEvl1xm0QEgG7VoMFDDaiw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKjruNobDbAhURBjQIHcg-DSQ4ChDoATALegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=george wesley dna&f=false

A murder in New York in September 1987 had evidence DNA tested, resulting in conviction. The FBI was capable of doing DNA matches by the end of 1987.

To clarify, a national data base was not needed here. DNA from the KGB safehouses and cars would be analyzed for possible matches with Marilyn's corpse, and DNA from the Jennings home. Paige is going to get hounded to the ends of the earth by the FBI, absent her cutting a deal.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Bannon
More thoughts

[Marianna]

I have two questions, one probably answerable, one maybe not:

 

1.  How/why did the FBI start staking out garages?  Did P and E have space in an outside garage (not in their house) that I totally missed?

2. How did they find Arkady/get past border patrol?

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm not sure if others felt this, but, to me, it seemed that Philip was really thinking fast on his feet and using his training in handling Stan in the best way to get him to back down off of them.  Granted, Philip did love Stan and was honest in what he said, except for the part about not killing people, but, it seemed to me that Philip, with his training and experience in human emotions/psychology, etc.  realized that denial was just making Stan more angry and that throwing himself at Stan' mercy might switch up the emotions. I don't think it was his EST training so much though.  Just life in general.  So, he claims that he is the schmuck. That he was wrong. That he was the one working under the unfair/corrupt bosses.  That he was the one who wasted his life. Philip takes on the role of the loser, so Stan can not feel so bad. And as long as he does that....it buys them some time to talk their way out of the garage.  Check out the way Paige and E are looking at P as he does this masterful, though, authentic spiel. I think even they were impressed and in shock.   And he seals the deal with throwing in the love from Henry and Stan's vital role in Henry's survival.   

I don't think it was part of the spiel about Renee though. I think that comment was given based on his real concern and that she would cause havoc for not only Stan, but, Henry down the line. 

I do think Philip was being honest, but, that it had dual purposes. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[tpplay]

4 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Friends don't do what Phillip did to Stan.  They do what Stan did. 

This.

Elizabeth would have killed Stan without a second thought - just as she killed lots of other people - and I frankly think Phillip would have too and then Paige wouldn't have had to wait till the train station to make her decision. Stan could not do to that.  That makes him, to my mind, neither an idiot nor a traitor.  They did terrible things of course.  But they now pose no risk to his country so it would have been "I'm really really mad at you so I'm going to kill you and your kids be damned."  Yes, they could have given up others in the KGB - but they couldn't do that if they were dead.

Regardless of all of our diverse views on this particular issue (and that's why this forum - and our country for that matter - is so great), that scene was absolutely beautiful, and tragic.

[scrb]

4 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I agree. Philip manipulated his "friend". Even with all his "est" crap, he wasn't honest.

I'm not a hater. I've loved this show from day one. I'm just disappointed in the ending. To each his own. I just don't feel sentimental toward murderous Russian spies in my country.

Stan knew one or both of them murdered The Teacups. He said so. He knew and still let them go. An idiot to the end. But then, his hands are not clean either. I just wanted him to redeem himself and he didn't. A pox on both their houses.

Stan could have spoken to Oleg and taken care of the Gorby information.

That's how Emily Nussbaum interpreted the scene, that Stan showed his vulnerability by saying "you were my best friend" and Philip ran with that, because that was his skill as a spy, to deceive people, to gaslight them.

But it isn't as if Philip didn't have a lot of misgivings about what he'd done or regret about his job, so he confessed.

And didn't Philip genuinely take to est?  Stan didn't stick with it but Philip continued to go and Elizabeth tried it once but dismissed it.

However, his last warning that Renee may be a spy was told out of genuine concern for Stan.  When he said they were going to get in the car and drive away, Philip didn't know that Stan wouldn't shoot him.

[kokapetl]

Train was filmed at Tuckahoe, if anyone wanted to know. 

[DrumJunkie]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

A murder in New York in September 1987 had evidence DNA tested, resulting in conviction. The FBI was capable of doing DNA matches by the end of 1987.

Yes, DNA was just starting to be used in criminal cases in 1987, but how many of those were prosecuted by the FBI?  I still stand by my statement that the FBI would not have used DNA in 1987.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Marianna said:

I have two questions, one probably answerable, one maybe not:

 

1.  How/why did the FBI start staking out garages?  Did P and E have space in an outside garage (not in their house) that I totally missed?

2. How did they find Arkady/get past border patrol?

The FBI, via their investigation of Harvest in Chicago discovered patterns of how the KGB was obtaining cars, garages, and safehouses.

[showme]

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

A murder in New York in September 1987 had evidence DNA tested, resulting in conviction. The FBI was capable of doing DNA matches by the end of 1987

Wrong conclusion. That murder took place in late 1987, DNA testing much later.

In any case, it is unrealistic to use DNA testing on Paige back in 1987. Technology was not there yet. Paige will be fine.

Edited May 31, 2018 by showme

[Misstify]

9 minutes ago, Marianna said:

How did they find Arkady/get past border patrol?

Code words?  We saw Elizabeth say something to the border patrol guard and then he went to make a call.

[kokapetl]

1 minute ago, DrumJunkie said:

Yes, DNA was just starting to be used in criminal cases in 1987, but how many of those were prosecuted by the FBI?  I still stand by my statement that the FBI would not have used DNA in 1987.

I also doubt the FBI’s top priority is building a case against two KGB spies who can’t be found, and have likely left the country. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

Yes, DNA was just starting to be used in criminal cases in 1987, but how many of those were prosecuted by the FBI?  I still stand by my statement that the FBI would not have used DNA in 1987.

The FBI has always been on the cutting edge of forensics technology. If you believe that local police departments in New York were employing DNA matches in 1987, but the FBI was not, to investigate homicidal sprees with huge national security implications, fine. I do not.

[MJ Frog]

They could have today's DNA technology and they still wouldn't be able to do anything more than place Paige with her mom in a car that might have been used for a KGB op. Nothing to charge her with unless they can connect that car to a specific crime, and even then it's hard to imagine they could charge her with anything without further evidence.

Edited May 31, 2018 by MJ Frog
Word order

[J-Man]

49 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I will say that Paige did pretty well thinking on her feet when Stan first questioned them.  She came up with her being sick. Her stomachache.  It wasn't bad.  And if Stan didn't already have so much info against them, it might have worked. 

I thought it would have been far more effective if she had said she was pregnant.

"And Mr. Beeman -- guess what? It's MATTHEW'S BABY! That's right -- you're going to be a grandpa!"

(On the next episode of "Spies of Our Lives," the new Cold War soap opera.)

[kokapetl]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

The FBI has always been on the cutting edge of forensics technology. If you believe that local police departments in New York were employing DNA matches in 1987, but the FBI was not, to investigate homicidal sprees with huge national security implications, fine. I do not.

The FBI are the top tier police force in America. I totally believe they would be at the forefront of forensics. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Kokapetl

[Tetraneutron]

18 minutes ago, Plums said:

the only thing that now bugs me on rewatch is that border control appears to have actual black and white copies of photographs of Philip and Elizabeth, alongside copies of their disguise sketches, and still don't seem to recognize them. I guess the confidence combined with the different disguises was enough, but it's become a nitpick, tbh. They're capable of being more unrecognizable than they were on that train. 

Ever crossed the border? The person just glances at your passport, glances at you, and lets you go. It would have been ridiculously unbelievable that a small-town sherrif would have recognized anyone from a pencil sketch. 

23 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

It only started to get exciting when Stan started to catch on to them and then it was rushed. Weren’t  the real spies arrested before they went back to Russia? Also, there were so many hints that Philip wanted to defect, and didn’t Elisabeth say in the car that she would too if they could all be together? Why didn’t they just come in from the cold?

So many loose ends, including literally no follow up to the shooting on the street last week. I am incredibly disappointed.

It was too late to defect at that point. There was no giving in for leniency, if they let Stan arrest them they'd spend the rest of their lives in jail and so would Paige, probably, and Henry would be marked forever as the son of Soviets. 

1 hour ago, misstwpherecool said:

Although you wondered who or when somebody would get shot in garage it wasn't the most fantastic scene ever. I would've been more satisfied with a tragic bloody ending for those characters. In theory Stan could be in trouble for leaving the surveillance and be accused of warning the P & E. There is so much possible aftermath which they simply did not touch.

They made it pretty clear that Aderholt doesn't think less of him for not catching P and E or for not realizing his neighbours and best friends were deep cover spies. No one but him knows what happens in the garage. Plus if he's taking care of Henry there obviously aren't big career repercussions for him. He goes back to his non-spy work at the FBI, and watches as his marriage slowly falls apart from mistrust. 

1 hour ago, J-Man said:

In addition to the more obvious ones (Martha, Renee, Claudia), I'd have liked to have heard a little bit about what happened with some of the other characters, like Young-Hee, Tuan, Kimmie, and Jackson.

Lives a sad life after a destroyed marriage, keeps on spying and becomes like Elizabeth was, lives a normal life and knows nothing, goes back to Georgia, safe but emotionally wrecked. The only ending I think was TOO loose was Paige's. What happens to her? Could be ANYTHING. She gets arrested for treason? She turns herself in, feeding Stan everything she knows (which really isn't much)? Stan lets her go out of loyalty and she plays dumb for the rest of her life? Go deep under cover but as a normie? Drink hereslf to death? These are all plausible. I don't see how she can have a meaningful relationship with Henry or Stan, and she has no friends so she's 100% alone. The only thing the show made clear about her was she decides she isn't loyal to Russia but then WHAT ON EARTH WAS SHE DOING IN CLAUDIA'S APARTMENT?

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

We aren't going to agree. I think that Stan's an idiot if he doesn't grasp by now that Clark was likely Phil, and that Amador's interest in Martha,  and the proximity of his murder to Martha's apartment indicates a strong likelihood that Phil killed Amador. Heck, Phil just being an illegal in D.C.  makes him a strong candidate for Amador's murder. Yet Stan conveniently forgets about what that murder meant to him, in the garage scene. I really, really, hated the garage scene.

"Clark" didn't kill Amador. Clark was a later disguise created for the sole purpose of seducing Martha. I've said many times that the show's habit of murdering wealthy, well-connected people should bite them in the ass. Because the FBI might not examine Gregory Thomas's death too closely, but FBI agents and the relatives of powerful people? They'd have been ON that. 

[SunnyBeBe]

4 minutes ago, J-Man said:

"And Mr. Beeman -- guess what? It's MATTHEW'S BABY! That's right -- you're going to be a grandpa!"

(On the next episode of "Spies of Our Lives," the new Cold War soap opera.)

Even better! Well, I don't think that she had seen Matthew in a while, but, you never know.  Maybe, she flew to his location over a break and didn't tell anyone. 

I always thought that P and E should have encouraged Paige to marry Mathew, have family.  It would have given them more security, but, as it turns out, they didn't need it. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[scartact]

Knowing the show to be what it is, I realize (and perhaps this is dissatisfactory for those who want clear answers) that it is quite possible for that confrontation with Philip and Stan to hold both truths that perhaps Philip was playing Stan, but also he was as sincere as he could be, to an extent (I mean, the moment they admit to murder, I can't see Stan letting them go at all). I can totally live in a world where Nussbaum interprets that scene as Philip's final greatest act of espionage, but also one where I can see it as coming from a very real and sincere place. That just reifies the thematic concerns around the tensions between artifice and reality, and I don't find either interpretation mutually exclusive based on the show's conceit.

Perhaps there's a very really frustrating way that the show refuses to tell us what is and isn't real, allows us only to exist in its ambiguity. I kind of relish that more than I would definitive outcomes. If the show maintained the trajectory of season one, I could totally see them going for that bombastic, balls out finale, guns and all. But the show slowly became less of that and what it became more of was something that completely reeled me in.

[Umbelina]

Paige went to Claudia's apartment because there was no place else she could go without facing the FBI.

At Claudia's, she had a place to change out of her disguise, have a drink, and think before facing the cops.  She may have even wanted to talk to Claudia about things, they had developed a closeness, and she might mistakenly think Claudia would help her decide what to do, or how to talk to the FBI, or just a shoulder to cry on.

She'll most likely call Stan from there, and an immunity deal will be made, then she'll go on with her life, away from government and spying, and she and her brother will stick together because they are what they have left of family, and now she can finally be honest with him again.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, showme said:

Wrong conclusion. That murder took place in late 1987, DNA testing much later.

In any case, it is unrealistic to use DNA testing on Paige back in 1987. Technology was not there yet. Paige will be fine.

No, the trial began in late 1988, conviction in January 1989. Which means the testing took place earlier in 1988, at the latest. The appeal on admissability of DNA matching took place much later.

[Tetraneutron]

The one thing I never understood was why Philip was so intent on believing Renee was a spy. His only "evidence" was that she was perfectly his type. When they first brought up that plot point I thought it was to show how the spy life was destroying Phil, making him paranoid and ruining his life. But then we NEVER see evidence she's a spy, unless you count that one scene where she encourages him to stay at the FBI. 

It was another cheat of the time jump, I think. Nothing happens with her in 3 years? If she's a spy she's a pretty bad one as nothing she does affects Stan or the Jenningses in any way. It's a plausible piece of tension in the beginning when we're waiting for the bomb to go off but then it doesn't after 3 years? What's that for? If she's spying it isn't changing anything. 

[kokapetl]

19 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The FBI, via their investigation of Harvest in Chicago discovered patterns of how the KGB was obtaining cars, garages, and safehouses.

But we don’t really know how useful it was to their investigations. Commie spies might always pay in cash, but they’re likely to be 0.001 of the cash paying population.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Kokapetl

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm on the fence about Paige going to Claudia's.  In that long drive, I would think that E would have mentioned to Paige that Claudia had betrayed her. I mean, she also said it in the garage.  So, I would think that Paige would have had a certain amount of trepidation about Claudia and her recent change of attitude about E, due to her refusing to obey orders and ratting out Claudia.   Wouldn't Paige been afraid of her now?  OR, perhaps E did tell Paige about that stuff, but, also added that Claudia had been warned and was likely long gone, just as they were.  So, Paige knew the apt was empty.  She just went there with no other place to go, but didn't expect Claudia to be there.  And, I wouldn't think she kept a key.  If they had been caught, she wouldn't want that key on her person.  They buried the old stuff.  My guess is that the apt had been left unlocked, as it was abandoned.  Just guessing.  Or maybe there was a key in a secret spot. 

[Ellaria]

5 minutes ago, scartact said:

Knowing the show to be what it is, I realize (and perhaps this is dissatisfactory for those who want clear answers) that it is quite possible for that confrontation with Philip and Stan to hold both truths that perhaps Philip was playing Stan, but also he was as sincere as he could be, to an extent (I mean, the moment they admit to murder, I can't see Stan letting them go at all). I can totally live in a world where Nussbaum interprets that scene as Philip's final greatest act of espionage, but also one where I can see it as coming from a very real and sincere place. That just reifies the thematic concerns around the tensions between artifice and reality, and I don't find either interpretation mutually exclusive based on the show's conceit.

Perhaps there's a very really frustrating way that the show refuses to tell us what is and isn't real, allows us only to exist in its ambiguity. I kind of relish that more than I would definitive outcomes. If the show maintained the trajectory of season one, I could totally see them going for that bombastic, balls out finale, guns and all. But the show slowly became less of that and what it became more of was something that completely reeled me in.

Well said! I agree that the confrontation held both truths. Philip fighting for his life/freedom AND genuinely sorry that he betrayed Stan's friendship in the past and again in that moment. His first instinct was for survival (himself and his family) and he used his skills to be truthful and duplicitous at the same time. (Frankly, this has always been one of Philip's greatest skills - his ability to gain the trust and confidence of his marks.) This is exactly what destroyed Philip in the end - that he had a conscience but did bad stuff anyway. In projecting Philip's life forward, I imagine that he will never be able to outrun his demons.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

Ever crossed the border? The person just glances at your passport, glances at you, and lets you go. It would have been ridiculously unbelievable that a small-town sherrif would have recognized anyone from a pencil sketch. 

It was too late to defect at that point. There was no giving in for leniency, if they let Stan arrest them they'd spend the rest of their lives in jail and so would Paige, probably, and Henry would be marked forever as the son of Soviets. 

They made it pretty clear that Aderholt doesn't think less of him for not catching P and E or for not realizing his neighbours and best friends were deep cover spies. No one but him knows what happens in the garage. Plus if he's taking care of Henry there obviously aren't big career repercussions for him. He goes back to his non-spy work at the FBI, and watches as his marriage slowly falls apart from mistrust. 

Lives a sad life after a destroyed marriage, keeps on spying and becomes like Elizabeth was, lives a normal life and knows nothing, goes back to Georgia, safe but emotionally wrecked. The only ending I think was TOO loose was Paige's. What happens to her? Could be ANYTHING. She gets arrested for treason? She turns herself in, feeding Stan everything she knows (which really isn't much)? Stan lets her go out of loyalty and she plays dumb for the rest of her life? Go deep under cover but as a normie? Drink hereslf to death? These are all plausible. I don't see how she can have a meaningful relationship with Henry or Stan, and she has no friends so she's 100% alone. The only thing the show made clear about her was she decides she isn't loyal to Russia but then WHAT ON EARTH WAS SHE DOING IN CLAUDIA'S APARTMENT?

"Clark" didn't kill Amador. Clark was a later disguise created for the sole purpose of seducing Martha. I've said many times that the show's habit of murdering wealthy, well-connected people should bite them in the ass. Because the FBI might not examine Gregory Thomas's death too closely, but FBI agents and the relatives of powerful people? They'd have been ON that. 

Amador came across Clark/Phil because Amador was jealous of Martha having another suitor. Clark had been created already.

19 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

They could have today's DNA technology and they still wouldn't be able to do anything more than place Paige with her mom in a car that might have been used for a KGB op. Nothing to charge her with unless they can connect that car to a specific crime, and even then it's hard to imagine they could charge her with anything without further evidence.

Yes, they are going to hound her to the end of her life, if she doesn't cut a deal. In real life, the FBI drove a completely innocent government scientist to suicide, when it suspected him of being involved in the anthhrax poison terrorist mailings 17 years ago, despite having very little evidence at all.

[AAEBoiler]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It looked like most everything was taken, save the vodka.

Maybe Claudia poisoned the vodka. In that case, Paige is a goner.

[Bannon]

27 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

I also doubt the FBI’s top priority is building a case against two KGB spies who can’t be found, and have likely left the country. 

Their top priority is discovering everything they can about KGB operations. That will include doing evidence matching with suspected KGB cars and safehouses, and homes of known KGB illegals.

2 minutes ago, AAEBoiler said:

Maybe Claudia poisoned the vodka. In that case, Paige is a goner.

She calls it "potato blintz"!

[tinderbox]

9 hours ago, jjj said:

"fucking piece of shit"  And yes, Philip mind-fucked Stan.  Shitty to end with telling him his wife "might be one of us".  Because that is not what a "friend" does when departing forever.  Passive aggressive move to put the final nail in Stan's paralysis.   

I believe Philip was being a friend to Stan and not being passive aggressive at all.  It was simply a warning and nothing more.

...This is probably an unpopular opinion, but Elizabeth Jennings deserved to die.  I'm disappointed she didn't.  On some level I think she is too...

 

I completely agree with you on all counts.  Yup.

Edited May 31, 2018 by tinderbox

[candle96]

12 hours ago, KBrownie said:

That's the most ridiculous part of this entire thing for me.  Why is Stan made to look like a complete and utter fool and end of betraying his country for two people who get off totally scot-free for all the horrific things they did in the name of theirs?   Awful.  If they were really worth it, they would have never left him to do it.  He obviously wasn't worth it to them.  They sure weren't willing to sacrifice shit for him, but he becomes a turncoat.  All for some true love conquers all bullshit.  

I partially agree with this, but am also remembering that Stan has been shown to be a little less than black and white law abiding man since the beginning, with all the Nina hijinks. And I think their pleas about Henry got to him. HIs own son doesn't seem to care about him that much, and they've built the Stan-Henry relationship for awhile.

So perhaps they were planting seeds this whole time that Stan would ultimately let the Jennings go. Still not sure it's realistic, though.

[EtheltoTillie]

29 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

Ever crossed the border? The person just glances at your passport, glances at you, and lets you go. It would have been ridiculously unbelievable that a small-town sherrif would have recognized anyone from a pencil sketch. 

 

This was different from an ordinary border crossing, though.  They were border patrol agents (according to the uniforms), and they had boarded the train to look for specific people.  So they were looking hard at each person and comparing to the paperwork. 

[Tetraneutron]

I think the show is clear the FBI can't connect Paige to anything (DNA or not, which, not) because Paige didn't actually DO anything. Her "spying" consisted of waiting in a car and talking to a naval officer, now dead. She saw the dead body of a man she genuinely believes shot himself. She knows that Claudia and Gabriel exist, but other than that was completely in the dark about everything. Unlike with the other junior spies (Hans, Marilyn etc) Claudia and Paige deliberately kept her away from everything. That was probably going to change now that Elizabeth told her to apply for the state department internship, but she hadn't at that point. She knew her parents were spies and didn't turn them in (as a minor) which is the only thing she could be prosecuted for. 

What do people think any CSI magic-science will discover about Paige that would tell anyone at the FBI anything useful? That P and E had a daughter? What?  I think the CSI effect is real. The belief that law enforcement is finding DNA or carpet fibres or something and this solves everything. 

[kokapetl]

17 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Amador came across Clark/Phil because Amador was jealous of Martha having another suitor. Clark had been created already.

Yes, they are going to hound her to the end of her life, if she doesn't cut a deal. In real life, the FBI drove a completely innocent government scientist to suicide, when it suspected him of being involved in the anthhrax poison terrorist mailings 17 years ago, despite having very little evidence at all.

Ivins? 

[Umbelina]

32 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

The one thing I never understood was why Philip was so intent on believing Renee was a spy. His only "evidence" was that she was perfectly his type. When they first brought up that plot point I thought it was to show how the spy life was destroying Phil, making him paranoid and ruining his life. But then we NEVER see evidence she's a spy, unless you count that one scene where she encourages him to stay at the FBI. 

It was another cheat of the time jump, I think. Nothing happens with her in 3 years? If she's a spy she's a pretty bad one as nothing she does affects Stan or the Jenningses in any way. It's a plausible piece of tension in the beginning when we're waiting for the bomb to go off but then it doesn't after 3 years? What's that for? If she's spying it isn't changing anything. 

It takes one to know one?   She was too perfect, much, much too perfect.  She liked everything Stan liked, football, his gym, she played racketball, she loved to cook, she had no distracting friends or life of her own, she was never grumpy, she even wore make up to bed.  Philip also knew he'd been including random information about Stan in his reports.  Voila!  Perfect woman just happens to be at Stan's gym right when he is, oh, and she adored him at first sight, and never disagrees with him, and obviously the sex was good too. 

What are the odds?

29 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm on the fence about Paige going to Claudia's.  In that long drive, I would think that E would have mentioned to Paige that Claudia had betrayed her. I mean, she also said it in the garage.  So, I would think that Paige would have had a certain amount of trepidation about Claudia and her recent change of attitude about E, due to her refusing to obey orders and ratting out Claudia.   Wouldn't Paige been afraid of her now?  OR, perhaps E did tell Paige about that stuff, but, also added that Claudia had been warned and was likely long gone, just as they were.  So, Paige knew the apt was empty.  She just went there with no other place to go, but didn't expect Claudia to be there.  And, I wouldn't think she kept a key.  If they had been caught, she wouldn't want that key on her person.  They buried the old stuff.  My guess is that the apt had been left unlocked, as it was abandoned.  Just guessing.  Or maybe there was a key in a secret spot. 

Liz didn't mention Claudia in the garage, they only mentioned "Fucking Russians."  Paige had a key.  Her options were limited, she was exhausted from all the traveling, emotionally wrecked, still in her disguise.  She knew her apartment and their house was being watched/searched.  She wasn't in the mood to show up at her boyfriend's house.  She needed some time to herself not running.  Claudia was her friend.

18 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Their top priority is discovering everything they can about KGB operations. That will include doing evidence matching with suspected KGB cars and safehouses, and homes of known KGB illegals.

She calls it "potato blintz"!

Which is another reason Paige could easily cut a deal.  I do think she'll call Stan after another drink, and possibly a nap.  He'd help her with that for all the information she could supply so they could catch more illegals.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Umbelina
typo

[kikaha]

34 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

Yes, DNA was just starting to be used in criminal cases in 1987, but how many of those were prosecuted by the FBI?  I still stand by my statement that the FBI would not have used DNA in 1987.

The FBI would have to find the cars.  Find Paige's hair in those cars.  Identify DNA from that hair, which is not a simple thing -- apparently they need the root of the hair (from under the scalp), and even then it's not 100%.  For example, crimemuseum website says, "The hair shaft does not contain nDNA, so the 100-150 strands of hair most people lose daily will not contain a root or nDNA, but it does have mitochondrial DNA (mDNA).  MDNA, which cannot be used for individualization, can narrow the source of the hair down to a certain family group (mDNA is passed from mother to all offspring). 

So there is 'if' piled on 'if,' all done in the mid-to-late 1980s, when DNA testing was in its infancy.  Odds to my unexpert mind seem real real low.  

[Ellaria]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

...she was never grumpy, she even wore make up to bed. 

You win the comment section for this thread. 

[Bannon]

54 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I know there will be people who will disagree but I think the Americans from pilot to finale has remained on par with top tier shows like Breaking Bad, The Shield and The Sopranos.      It wasn’t violent and I think that was its intention so when it did get violent you felt it.  Those teeth pulling,  person putting into a suitcase, occasional shoot outs were felt  because this show was one big punch to the gut.  

And that’s  why I think even at its worst it wasn’t really all that bad.  And yes I know some people love to complain about it’s weakness and hate Paige but ultimately I think she was a fascinating character and I don’t think the show would have worked without her and I am hoping Holly Taylor has an awesome career ahead of her.  So so long show you will have a fond place in my heart.

To me, this show will always be frustrating, because it had superb acting, and a tremendous premise, one of the best ever. Joined to some really inexplicable writing and showrunning errors. Yes, the last two seasons were the most problematic, but even before that, I thought Stan's writing was really poor, and the writers just had the habit of having characters and institutions doing really stupid things, so the plot could be driven along. I get frustrated with that. I don't think the show ever recovered from losing the Martha arc, which was extraordinarily well done, in all respects.

Look, this stuff is really hard to do well, over several seasons, so I'm not trying to be too harsh.

[hellmouse]

6 minutes ago, GussieK said:

This was different from an ordinary border crossing, though.  They were border patrol agents (according to the uniforms), and they had boarded the train to look for specific people.  So they were looking hard at each person and comparing to the paperwork. 

I think one thing both Philip and Elizabeth had going for them is that they were very calm. Neither one betrayed any hesitation or concern. I think the agents are looking for behavioral tics in addition to physical resemblance. Philip looked older and even kind of puffier in the face (maybe he had a lot of salt on his fries at McD's) and Elizabeth held herself differently somehow; the angle of her head and something about the expression in her eyes made her seem different. 

Honestly, I thought Paige was the one who'd be in trouble. She looked guilty most of the time anyway! Maybe part of her thinking was that 1) she really didn't want to go to Russia; 2) she was imagining that Henry would react to being alone the same way she would; and 3) if she was captured on the train it would increase the chance that her parents would be captured too. 

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

I think the show is clear the FBI can't connect Paige to anything (DNA or not, which, not) because Paige didn't actually DO anything. Her "spying" consisted of waiting in a car and talking to a naval officer, now dead. She saw the dead body of a man she genuinely believes shot himself. She knows that Claudia and Gabriel exist, but other than that was completely in the dark about everything. Unlike with the other junior spies (Hans, Marilyn etc) Claudia and Paige deliberately kept her away from everything. That was probably going to change now that Elizabeth told her to apply for the state department internship, but she hadn't at that point. She knew her parents were spies and didn't turn them in (as a minor) which is the only thing she could be prosecuted for. 

What do people think any CSI magic-science will discover about Paige that would tell anyone at the FBI anything useful? That P and E had a daughter? What?  I think the CSI effect is real. The belief that law enforcement is finding DNA or carpet fibres or something and this solves everything. 

There is nothing more magical about DNA than there is about fingerprints. The obtainable evidence will lead the FBI to very, very,  strongly suspect Paige is a KGB agent. If you think driving the car for another agent who broke into a warehouse and shot 3 people to death is not doing anything, I disagree.

[Umbelina]

I loved the way the song STOPPED when the passports were being checked, and started right up again after they had been.

Lovely use of the music there!

[candle96]

28 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm on the fence about Paige going to Claudia's.  In that long drive, I would think that E would have mentioned to Paige that Claudia had betrayed her. I mean, she also said it in the garage.  So, I would think that Paige would have had a certain amount of trepidation about Claudia and her recent change of attitude about E, due to her refusing to obey orders and ratting out Claudia.   Wouldn't Paige been afraid of her now?  OR, perhaps E did tell Paige about that stuff, but, also added that Claudia had been warned and was likely long gone, just as they were.  So, Paige knew the apt was empty.  She just went there with no other place to go, but didn't expect Claudia to be there.  And, I wouldn't think she kept a key.  If they had been caught, she wouldn't want that key on her person.  They buried the old stuff.  My guess is that the apt had been left unlocked, as it was abandoned.  Just guessing.  Or maybe there was a key in a secret spot. 

I thought Paige going there was kind of perfect because it showed that 1. she's still kind of stupid and 2. she ultimately liked the "idea" of Russia more than actually living there. Her home life with her parents was sort of lacking and her time with Claudia and Elizabeth (however manipulative it was) felt like a real family to her. Her own little fake version of "Russia." But actually going to live in Communist Soviet Union? Paige couldn't handle that, so she went to the only place that felt like home to her. 

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, Plums said:

the only thing that now bugs me on rewatch is that border control appears to have actual black and white copies of photographs of Philip and Elizabeth, alongside copies of their disguise sketches, and still don't seem to recognize them. I guess the confidence combined with the different disguises was enough, but it's become a nitpick, tbh. They're capable of being more unrecognizable than they were on that train. 

I think the confidence part was huge. They were lucky that the pre-planned passport photo disguises were sufficiently different from the photos and sketches the border guards had. Long-haired Elizabeth and younger, goatee-wearing Philip would have been less convincing.

Edited May 31, 2018 by hellmouse
typo

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

We had to suffer through wheat murders   last season for this?  

 

This has all the marks of being something that the writers wrote along time ago I’m in the final scene, and then had to make the episode work, even though the series had a valve so it no longer made sense. This is why, writers, they advise you never to write a last scene or a scene far in advance of what you were working on, because it poses the danger of making you force your characters to do something that they won’t do by the time you get there.

It only started to get exciting when Stan started to catch on to them and then it was rushed. Weren’t  the real spies arrested before they went back to Russia? Also, there were so many hints that Philip wanted to defect, and didn’t Elisabeth say in the car that she would too if they could all be together? Why didn’t they just come in from the cold?

 

 

So many loose ends, including literally no follow up to the shooting on the street last week. I am incredibly disappointed.

Yep, I agree completely. 

[kikaha]

30 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

The one thing I never understood was why Philip was so intent on believing Renee was a spy. His only "evidence" was that she was perfectly his type. When they first brought up that plot point I thought it was to show how the spy life was destroying Phil, making him paranoid and ruining his life. But then we NEVER see evidence she's a spy, unless you count that one scene where she encourages him to stay at the FBI. 

It was another cheat of the time jump, I think. Nothing happens with her in 3 years? If she's a spy she's a pretty bad one as nothing she does affects Stan or the Jenningses in any way. It's a plausible piece of tension in the beginning when we're waiting for the bomb to go off but then it doesn't after 3 years? What's that for? If she's spying it isn't changing anything. 

Philip's (and Elizabeth's) instincts are honed like those of few other people on the planet.  Their survival depends on their ability to quickly and accurately read people.  The fact that both their alarm bells rang off over Renee is pretty damning. 

The three years are trivial, if Renee is there for the long game.  Also, 1) Stan transferred out of counter-terrorism, 2) Renee may well get a job inside the FBI, and 3) the Jennings are still there.  i.e. she has plenty of reasons to stick around. 

[DrumJunkie]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I loved the way the song STOPPED when the passports were being checked, and started right up again after they had been.

Lovely use of the music there!

I'm not a U2 fan, but that was a great use of the song.  Props to everyone who predicted it!

[MisterBluxom]

I remember being "knocked out" by the very first episode. The music was fantastic. The premise was fantastic. The promise of future episodes was fantastic.

I better stop repeating "fantastic". But there was plenty more about this show. It starts with the fact that I have always loved Keri Russell. There were also several elements of this show that were top notch - including the acting and also the actors. Aside from Keri  Russell, many people don't seem to discuss how so many of the other actors are also hugely talented.

But, sad to say,  no other episode ever seemed to achieve the same level of "WOW!" as did that first episode. A few may have come close - especially those that involved Martha and Nina.

Wasn't Nina terrific? One of the very best characters of them all.

I'm not sure what my point is. I better just stop here.

Edited May 31, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, kikaha said:

Don't know, but seems like Washington DC would be a magnet for them. 

I agree with you overall about the writing.  But I was willing to play along anyway.  e.g. I found the garage scene absurd but also gripping.  We've waited six years for the reveal: I sure wanted to see how things unfolded. 

Same for most of the sixth season.  It worked better than, say, the fifth season, because it brought to a head the key tensions, plots and question marks that had built up since the premier.  The concept, acting and themes were powerful enough to overcome writing shortcomings, at least for me.  

If people liked it, I have no issue with them doing so. All I can do is say why the absurdity of it ruined what chance there was that I would enjoy it. I'm ok with people liking things I do not, and vice versa.

[Stan39]

I don't understand everyone who thinks Paige is fine because there's no evidence to arrest her. Her parents didn't "get away free" they escaped. The FBI knows (with or without Stan tell on god them anything) that Philip and Elizabeth are spies, and they'll at least assume Paige was with them at some point during the escape (Aderholt knows she wasn't in her apartment). I can't imagine the government just lets her slide. For that matter, they'd probably still bring in Henry and detain him/ruin his life. They'll just assume Henry knew/was involved, too, but there wasn't time for the family to go get him. I'm pretty sure both kids lives are ruined. 

[MJ Frog]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

If you think driving the car for another agent who broke into a warehouse and shot 3 people to death is not doing anything, I disagree.

They have to find the car first, and then figure out that particular car was used for that particular crime, and then place Paige in that car.

There is little doubt that Paige should assume that everything is tapped in perpetuity, and she will be periodically tailed. Hounded to the brink of suicide? Maybe. Maybe not.