S05.E05: Shifting Sands

[CooperTV]

Quote

 Octavia leads her people towards Shallow Valley against the advice of Clarke and Bellamy. Meanwhile, Kane and Abby adjust to a new set of challenges.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Seriously ? They're ripping off Aliens.  Did Eligius IV have a side trip to LV426 during it's 100 year journey ?  That's just lazy.

[Lady Calypso]

If we have a main character die this season, I nominate Octavia. She legit started a cult with Wonkru and now all of them are too far gone, but mostly Octavia, who stated multiple times this episode that she chooses Wonkru over her own brother. Though I suspect this probably won't be the case when Bellamy's in danger over a member, or multiple members, of Wonkru, she's still said it. And she's been acting like this dictator, allowing herself to be consumed by her own power. God, she's just the worst. Sure, she can be a little snippy about Becho because Echo did actually almost kill her, but she's going to clearly take it over the top, as she's done with Wonkru and with her brother, and I'm going to lose sympathy that she could have had. 

Murphy's still great. I'll admit that I would have rather seen him stick with Raven for longer. I know we're getting Murphy/Emori relationship angst for the next episode or two, and I did like the couple, but I'm not really clamoring for relationship stuff with them. Also, poor guy still has that shock collar on his neck, which probably isn't easy to get off manually. 

Raven/Shaw is clearly happening, and I could be down for it. 

So...are they hinting toward Kane/Diyoza? I do actually enjoy Diyoza, at least more than I do with some of our main characters. 

[Fireball]

26 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

If we have a main character die this season, I nominate Octavia.

I second this!

[Sakura12]

To me it seems like Octavia is the enemy of wonkru. She doesn't seem to care when her own people are dying. She seems to even be willing to kill her own brother if he disobeys her. Her one track mind is just going to get more of them killed. 

The head and the heart you need both and Octavia had neither. She doesn't even make any plans. 

Has Clarke not seen those bug things at all in 6 years? I suppose her and Madi just never left the valley because the sand/glass storms. 

I'm glad they keep mentioning they are the only humans left maybe they shouldn't be killing each other. No one seems to be listening to that though.

[thuganomics85]

Whelp, I guess it was about that time to have a little torture thrown Raven's way!  Classic The 100!  Anytime she gets these scenes, I wonder if Lindsey Morgan is debating wherever someone in the writers' room really hates her or if they actually really like her, and think she's just really good at these types of moments.  Hopefully it's the latter.  At least Shaw was around to cut it short.  They're so hooking up!

I guess the space station had a library back in the day, since Murphy apparently knows what a hobbit is.  He never really struck he as someone who would be into fantasy books, but I guess you can't judge a psycho book by its psycho cover!  Him and Emori on their own again should be fun.

I'm becoming less and less impressed with Octavia as a leader.  She preaches being Wonkru for life and whatever, but she then puts them in various dangerous situations, and barely seems to bother trying to protect and prepare them for it.  Even when I found freaking Clarke's decisions baffling or head-scratching, I still had the sense she truly thought she was doing what was best for her people.  I don't have the same feeling about Octavia at the moment.  I hate to think it since I really like her, but I almost wonder if Indra dying from these wounds would be the wake-up call Octavia needs.  Then I remember it is Octavia, and she'd probably find some way to blame Bellamy for it.  But I also noticed Cooper/Kyra Zagorsky's character was starting to question her decisions near the end, and unlike Indra, she totally strikes me as someone who would be willing to betray Octavia if it would benefit her.

Diyoaz was so hitting on Kane, right?  Don't fall for it, Marcus!

As Mike Dopud (the prisoner Abbie did a work-up on) ever not played a psycho?

[ParadoxLost]

59 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

If we have a main character die this season, I nominate Octavia. She legit started a cult with Wonkru and now all of them are too far gone, but mostly Octavia, who stated multiple times this episode that she chooses Wonkru over her own brother. Though I suspect this probably won't be the case when Bellamy's in danger over a member, or multiple members, of Wonkru, she's still said it. And she's been acting like this dictator, allowing herself to be consumed by her own power. God, she's just the worst. Sure, she can be a little snippy about Becho because Echo did actually almost kill her, but she's going to clearly take it over the top, as she's done with Wonkru and with her brother, and I'm going to lose sympathy that she could have had. 

Its not so much that she would choose Wonkru over Bellamy that bothers me.  its that she threatened to kill him if he defied her, questioned her, or deigned to offer her any council.

At that point I was already pretty irritated that Clarke didn't let Octavia die and then further irritated and confused that Bellamy and Clarke were thanking/praising Octavia for saving them by marching them through bugs and sand glass storms.  I get that they got away from the missiles but that seemed overdone.

I'm feeling like the writers need to stop after every scene and ask themselves whether Octavia is coming off like a ruthless leader who is hardened by the conditions she had to lead in or a petulant child who is scared her big brother is going to take away her favorite toy.  Then if its the latter, they need to rewrite the scenes because the acting can't carry off the former if there is any room for interpretation left in the writing.  But if they are trying to go for petulant child who is scared her brother will take her followers away from her, then fabulous job and well done.

I do think that cracks are forming in the cult following Octavia already.  Indra has clearly betrayed her doubts about Octavia to Kane, Bellamy, and Clarke.  Now we've got at least one of the rank and file put off that Octavia is just going to strip and leave the dead.  That is not going to sit right.  I expect that former Skykru especially are going to be watching Clarke, Bellamy, and Monty interact and start rethinking things.  Clarke will no longer put up with Octavia if Madi's "favorite" starts being a bad influence.

[ottoDbusdriver]

31 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Has Clarke not seen those bug things at all in 6 years? I suppose her and Madi just never left the valley because the sand/glass storms. 

I'm thinking yes because she knew that they were venomous.  How else would she even know they were venomous  ?

The first guy infected was screaming and convulsing because huge worms were constantly moving in his torso -- which would be painful enough, but no confirmation that they were venomous.

I feel like we missed a lot off screen between this episode and the previous one.  The Eligius shuttle (with Kane and Abbie on board) went back up to the Eligius IV, picked up all 250+ prisoners, captured Murphy and Raven (since they didn't lock the door to the cryochamber), and brought everyone back to Clarke's village in the green valley.

In previous seasons, 150 miles was about a 15 minute walk -- so why was this suddenly such a long trek ?

[CooperTV]

Diyoza and McReary are two my new favorites. I'm rooting for them , even if it'll obviously bring me only misfortune, since they're gonna die so fast. But they're great characters, and the actors just bring it.

The writers are trying to play both ways with octagon, as per usual. She's normal s1!Octavia one second and Blodreina Skirippa Abuser Octagon the next, and we're supposed to find that sympathetic. Sorry, writers, she just threatened to execute her last leaving relative who raised her, stopped listen to reason, wanted to kill some rando warrior of Wonkru, I don't give a fig anymore about this crazy murderous hypocrite anymore.

And oh, Octagon/Becho conflict, what joy.

I'd be all over Clarke's reaction to Becho if the actual Becho had teh sliver of the writers' attention and was not created solely to be a boring plot device for Bellamy and Octagon's issues. Poor Bellamy and his love life noone cares about outside of the forced conflict. AND BTW, Octavia already said she would kill Bellamy for "disobedience", why do we need Becho again?

Edited May 23, 2018 by CooperTV

[patchwork]

I guess Clarke and Madi's nightblood makes them unappealing to the worms so the worst they experienced was a few bites.

Octavia's the worst, she really is. Why make sure your army's in one piece and able to fight by taking the long way round when you can make them walk through glass sandstorms. All Wonkru really have in their favour is that they outnumber Prisonkru and she's putting that advantage at risk by being impatient. I can understand why in the bunker her word had to become law, even though I question the necessity of the whole gladiator cult thing, but they're no longer isolated in the bunker so she needs to relax the whole 'question me and you're the enemy of Wonkru' stance.  

Not that it matters for Bellamy because he reached enemy status when Octavia saw the Becho kiss.

Did Octavia say that the farm was failing?

Edited May 23, 2018 by patchwork

[AudienceofOne]

How did Murphy and Raven get down from the ship with the other prisoners?

HANDWAVE

[CooperTV]

28 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

How did Murphy and Raven get down from the ship with the other prisoners?

Diyoza and co went to them on the Gagarin module at the end of 5.04, didn't they?

[AudienceofOne]

2 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Diyoza and co went to them on the Gagarin module at the end of 5.04, didn't they?

Yeah, which means they managed to go to space and come back down again in, like, a day. Do you know how much time and fuel that would actually take?

[CooperTV]

56 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Do you know how much time and fuel that would actually take?

I bet the writers don't either, though!

[Sakura12]

Why is Octavia's immediate reaction to always kill? With that kind of rule she's going to end being an army of one. Octavia's going to have to realize they are not in the bunker anymore, those people are no longer stuck following her. She needs to start thinking and planning more if she wants to win a war against people with better weapons and a ship that can shoot those weapons from the sky.

You'd think she would want advice from someone that has lived and survived on that Earth for 6 years. The other people have a ship, it wouldn't matter if took you 6 days or 8 days. They were always going to get their first, but at least you're people would be alive and not have to die or suffer injuries from a glass sand storm. The one advantage they have is more people. She's actually helping Diyoza by getting rid of her own numbers. 

All Kane will need to tell Diyoza is Octavia is bull headed and impulsive and she'll react to any threat the same way. Get her angry and she'll attack without thinking. 

[Jeddah]

This episode was a mess. There was no continuity about who was where and how they got there. I’ve watched every episode, but still feel like I must have missed something major because nothing makes sense.

[Lady Calypso]

Also, people have been pointing things out on Reddit (a site I don't tend to venture in): Wonkru are totally cannibals, right? Some of their reactions to Octavia stating to leave the bodies seemed like they weren't just upset about leaving their dead friends behind, as well as Wonkru being way overprotective about Bellamy and Clarke checking the rations. Also, if this is true, then it makes sense as to how they all got to eat for longer than they planned. 

[Subrookie]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that thought I missed a scene or something. I was confused when all the prisoners just showed back up on earth from the spaceship. I literally thought they were doing a flashback scene to where/when the prisoners got to whatever mining planet they were supposed to go to and Diyoza walked off the ship. But, nope they just skipped ahead in the writing. Seemed lazy. 

[Sakura12]

You have to wonder what they did with all their dead, they couldn't just leave them lying around it would start to smell. Resorting to cannibalism would solve that issue and the food issue. It gives a new meaning to their mantra "all of me for all of us". 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Sakura12

[domina89]

15 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I guess the space station had a library back in the day, since Murphy apparently knows what a hobbit is.

Too bad Octavia didn't read Plato's "Republic" while she was in her hidey hole on the space station.  It might have benefited them all right about now...

[AudienceofOne]

Unfortunately Octavia makes sense to me. She's a perpetual child handed ultimate power in a completely-enclosed environment. Like most dictators, her absolute rule does not survive the outside world. Her power comes from definitive decisions and absolute obedience within an environment of limited variation. This is a social order designed to help them survive the bunker but they're not in the bunker anymore. Even mild disagreement is an unacceptable challenge to her authority as it existed before they got out. So, she's panicking and trying to force people back to the social state they were in before.

They don't just have an enemy, they have new people who have the audacity to disagree with her. I'm surprised her beef is with Bellamy because honestly I thought it would be Clarke. It's no surprise that it took all of one day for her own people to question her decisions because of Clarke.

[ParadoxLost]

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, people have been pointing things out on Reddit (a site I don't tend to venture in): Wonkru are totally cannibals, right? Some of their reactions to Octavia stating to leave the bodies seemed like they weren't just upset about leaving their dead friends behind, as well as Wonkru being way overprotective about Bellamy and Clarke checking the rations. Also, if this is true, then it makes sense as to how they all got to eat for longer than they planned. 

 

6 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

You have to wonder what they did with all their dead, they couldn't just leave them lying around it would start to smell. Resorting to cannibalism would solve that issue and the food issue. It gives a new meaning to their mantra "all me for all of us". 

Cannibalism is the simplest explanation for how they dealt with the dead in the bunker.  Abby mentioning why the Arc started spacing the dead in EP2 points to the show being aware that they had to deal with that problem.  I don't know if they'll ever explicitly reveal it but on rewatch of  this episode, I agree that they are definitely hinting at it.

Indra made a point of giving Bellamy and Clarke  their own rations.  With Octavia treating them as outsiders to Wonkru I don't feel like they would let Clarke and Bellamy carry their own rations for the journey.  Octavia would want to dole out the rations as a power play and I think that Indra would know that and wouldn't have chosen to go against Octavia so openly.  So it feels like they are hiding something from Bellarke.    Then Bellarke eat separately from Wonkru.  And "all of me for all of us"  is a phrase that screams that they've built a society that has normalized and accepted cannibalism given its said as they are eating by a bunch of people that have been on the verge of stsrvation for six years.

I imagine that in the Dark Year, the cannibalism started and eventually it became part of the pit fights.  Something like X committed a crime and in his death makes the ultimate gift of himself to feed the community he wronged thereby is redeemed and forgiven. 

2 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Unfortunately Octavia makes sense to me. She's a perpetual child handed ultimate power in a completely-enclosed environment. Like most dictators, her absolute rule does not survive the outside world. Her power comes from definitive decisions and absolute obedience within an environment of limited variation. This is a social order designed to help them survive the bunker but they're not in the bunker anymore. Even mild disagreement is an unacceptable challenge to her authority as it existed before they got out. So, she's panicking and trying to force people back to the social state they were in before.

I think you are spot on here.  What worries me about Octavia's characterization is whether the writers have as good a handle on the complexities of Octavia's characterization as you do.  There is too much history with the show throwing characterization out the window for plot.

 

2 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

They don't just have an enemy, they have new people who have the audacity to disagree with her. I'm surprised her beef is with Bellamy because honestly I thought it would be Clarke. It's no surprise that it took all of one day for her own people to question her decisions because of Clarke.

I think that Clarke understood how Octavia has changed very quickly.  Clarke is the bigger threat to Octavia's leadership and Clarke recognizes how dangerous that is and shut up almost immediately.  Clarke is offering her knowledge from six years on the ground but not pushing her POV much after Octavia decides something different.

If you watch all the scenes that Octavia and Clarke have., Belllamy is doing almost all of the talking and Clarke is subtly trying to get him to stop pushing at Octavia.  He just can't stop giving advise and there is a lot of sibling rivalry there.  Octavia is bristling at his big brother attitude because he's not just challenging her.  He's doing it when he doesn't have the excuse of knowing the terrain like Clarke and when he had the prisoners open the bunker.  I'm not so sure that Octavia wouldn't have preferred to stay sealed in.

Sooner rather than later, Octavia will turn her attention to Clarke because Clarke isn't going to be able to help leading and lots of Octavia's people are going to start looking to Clarke as a better option.  They already started this episode with Jackson telling Clarke that they would have been better off if she were down in the bunker with them. 

[Lady Calypso]

27 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Cannibalism is the simplest explanation for how they dealt with the dead in the bunker.  Abby mentioning why the Arc started spacing the dead in EP2 points to the show being aware that they had to deal with that problem.  I don't know if they'll ever explicitly reveal it but on rewatch of  this episode, I agree that they are definitely hinting at it.

I'm going to say that the talk about this so-called "dark year" that they discussed in the first bunker episode, whenever it was, is probably the start of their cannibalism, when they realized that they needed to eat their dead in order to survive. I wonder in what year this happens. Is it year five, their last year of their prediction to be in the bunker and their food growing short? Is it year four? Year TWO? 

29 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

If you watch all the scenes that Octavia and Clarke have., Belllamy is doing almost all of the talking and Clarke is subtly trying to get him to stop pushing at Octavia.  He just can't stop giving advise and there is a lot of sibling rivalry there.  Octavia is bristling at his big brother attitude because he's not just challenging her.  He's doing it when he doesn't have the excuse of knowing the terrain like Clarke and when he had the prisoners open the bunker.  I'm not so sure that Octavia wouldn't have preferred to stay sealed in.

I noticed that too. Clarke definitely caught on immediately, perhaps because she also had to do what she had to do in order to survive. Maybe not to the extent that Octavia has, but the experience with living with only Madi changed Clarke as well. But also because Bellamy hoped to see the same little sister he left behind, only to come back to this psychopathic stranger who had no qualms about threatening his life. 

With Octavia, she's spent 95% of her life underground. But this time around, these past six years, she had the power, unlike on the Ark. Clarke seems to see that Octavia isn't the same, as she only knew her for a year. Bellamy's known her his entire life and I think he believes he can get through to her, or he at least hopes he can. 

Though, again, Octavia's always treated Bellamy like shit and he's always been there for her. Just once, I'd actually like to see the roles reversed, but I don't think they'll ever do that. I'd like to see Octavia fight for her brother, really fight for him and care for him in the way that he has always for her, just like I'd like to see Bellamy get truly pissed at her once he discovers everything she's done in the bunker, and I mean the things we haven't gotten confirmed on screen yet. But he seems to not give a shit about what she's done, as she doesn't seem to care enough about Bellamy at all. I know she wouldn't actually be able to give the kill order on him if it came down to it, but I could see her getting pretty damn close, even if that means beating him senseless but not to death. 

[ParadoxLost]

16 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Though, again, Octavia's always treated Bellamy like shit and he's always been there for her. Just once, I'd actually like to see the roles reversed, but I don't think they'll ever do that. I'd like to see Octavia fight for her brother, really fight for him and care for him in the way that he has always for her, just like I'd like to see Bellamy get truly pissed at her once he discovers everything she's done in the bunker, and I mean the things we haven't gotten confirmed on screen yet. But he seems to not give a shit about what she's done, as she doesn't seem to care enough about Bellamy at all. I know she wouldn't actually be able to give the kill order on him if it came down to it, but I could see her getting pretty damn close, even if that means beating him senseless but not to death. 

I think that Bellamy and Clarke are going to give her a pass on what happened in the bunker.  They come from a society that spaces their criminals.  Even if they turned cannibal there are realities of 1200 people trapped in an enclosed space and starving.  Clarke and Bellamy didn't go through that so while I think they will be horrified I don't think they are going to be pissed over how Octavia kept order.

I think the conflict will come from Octavia using the same tactics outside of the bunker as in it.  When people start wanting to go back to the way their life was before they were sealed into a bunker, that's when this is going to go sideways and the killing is going to start. 

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

Indra made a point of giving Bellamy and Clarke  their own rations. 

Ohh, good point.  I missed that (have only watched once so far).  I'll pay attention during my rewatch. 

Add me to the camp who believes the rations were, um, fellow Bunkerkru.  I mean, they plainly said they were honoring the dead and doing the "all of me for all of us" chant while they were eating.  I was literally sitting here laughing almost to the point of tears watching that scene, not because it was funny ha-ha, but because it was almost incomprehensibly horrible and Bellamy and Clarke were just so oblivious talking about how beautiful it all was.  Gak.  All we needed was for The Circle of Life to be playing in the background.  O.O

[mxc90]

Is this the only part of the planet that is livable? ( I may have missed) Was there any dialogue saying Diyoza and co. ran a scan of Earth and there is no other place but here.

Surprised Octavia didn't call Bellamy Fredo in her little statement.

[Lady Calypso]

58 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

Is this the only part of the planet that is livable? ( I may have missed) Was there any dialogue saying Diyoza and co. ran a scan of Earth and there is no other place but here.

Surprised Octavia didn't call Bellamy Fredo in her little statement.

They assume that it's the only place, but I'm not positive there's been any scans of the Earth to confirm it. I could be wrong, but I'm honestly expecting them to stumble upon another livable area and then season six is the war between The Valley and The Other Place. 

[Sakura12]

While I do think some of Wonkru is completely loyal to Octavia. I think Clarke just planning ahead would get some of the Bunkerkru to start following her. Octavia's charge ahead no matter what is going to get people killed.  She wasn't going to retreat from a freaking missile.  If she goes to war with that kind of planning it will be a very short war that none of her people will survive.  

I think Clarke naturally takes a leadership position, however I think living pretty much 5 years of peace with just her and Madi has changed her a bit. She probably liked not having to lead anyone and only be responsible for one other person. I think she will let Octavia lead and only speak up when it endangers everyone. She knows the terrain better than anyone that could be useful during a war. 

Clarke knows Octavia is the leader and her people are loyal so she's not going to challenge her.  Unless it threatens Madi. I also think Diyoza will eventually realize that Clarke is a bigger threat than Octavia and probably do the dumb thing and try to go after Madi and then she will meet Wanheda. 

[CooperTV]

11 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I also think Diyoza will eventually realize that Clarke is a bigger threat than Octavia and probably do the dumb thing and try to go after Madi and then she will meet Wanheda. 

From the previous seasons' structure I can only assume that there's going to be another villain/antagonist in the second half of the season. I also think that Diyoza and PrisonKru, SpaceKru, some people from DeathCultKru and Clarke are going to work together for the common goal.

Edited May 24, 2018 by CooperTV

[Sakura12]

I could see Diyoza's people turning against her. She's kind of like Octavia, she held the power while they were in space and had no where else to go. Now they are no longer stuck with her. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Sakura12

[megsara]

I'm pretty fascinated by the dynamics of Wonkru.  It's obviously very cult-like, but I don't know, I was kind of with Clarke (and Diyoza) with being impressed.  Octavia is still one of my faves.  I'm not quite sure what else her options were down in the bunker.  For all they knew, they would be stuck down there forever.  Not knowing about the prisoners and their equipment, how else would they have gotten out?  It was either a regular culling of the population or everyone slowly starves to death.  Even with the reduced population, Octavia mentioned the farm was barely feeding them.  The entire 'you are Wonkru or an enemy of Wonkru' philosophy seemed like the only thing that kept them cohesive.  Plus most of them seem pretty into the religious/spiritual aspect, including Octavia - I am curious about Gaia.  I have a feeling she had a lot to do, along with Octavia, with what Wonkru has become.

Indra better be ok - I have resigned myself to her eventually dying (and me never getting my Kane/Indra ship), but she deserves to go out better than that. I did love her telling Octavia she loves her.  

We haven't seen Niylah yet, right?  She always seems so level headed so I have to wonder, if she survived, what she thought about Wonkru/the fighting pits.  I really liked the vibe between her and Octavia as well, so really want to know what happened to her.  I wonder if she factors at all into Octavia's 'love no one and no one hurts you' philosophy.

Raven deserves a lifetime of pleasure after all the crap she's been through.  Shaw better start getting ready to provide some of that!

Edited May 24, 2018 by megsara

[Lady Calypso]

23 minutes ago, megsara said:

I'm pretty fascinated by the dynamics of Wonkru.  It's obviously very cult-like, but I don't know, I was kind of with Clarke (and Diyoza) with being impressed.  Octavia is still one of my faves.  I'm not quite sure what else her options were down in the bunker.  For all they knew, they would be stuck down there forever.  Not knowing about the prisoners and their equipment, how else would they have gotten out?  It was either a regular culling of the population or everyone slowly starves to death.  Even with the reduced population, Octavia mentioned the farm was barely feeding them.  The entire 'you are Wonkru or an enemy of Wonkru' philosophy seemed like the only thing that kept them cohesive.  Plus most of them seem pretty into the religious/spiritual aspect, including Octavia - I am curious about Gaia.  I have a feeling she had a lot to do, along with Octavia, with what Wonkru has become.

For me, I think the issue I'm having with Octavia is that she started the whole Hunger Games aspect very, very early on. I think Jaha died within the first two months of Praimfaya, and then Octavia started the whole Wonkru business during that time. If this had been after the first year or two, then it's a different story. I understand that even after 45+ days of being in the bunker, people needed discipline as there was the divide between Grounders and the others, but up to that point, they were just getting started with their new life. So Octavia took advantage of that very early on before they could all reach an agreement, took hold as leader, and then led the entire bunker down a very dark path. Her choice to start the Hunger Games (which now takes on a very literal meaning if they are heading down the cannibal path) was more about punishment of wrongdoers. Again, which can make sense, but it's a very dark path to take and Octavia hasn't shown remorse for her choice, and she's been doing this for the entire six years. 

It may be fascinating, but also very frustrating to watch. I just think that Octavia could have made different choices before it turned into a cult, and that's all on her. She decided to make a game out of punishment less than two months in. Presumably, she also made the choice to shift the game from just mere punishment to possible cannibalism (which, for the record, I don't blame her for if they are cannibals; they're just trying to survive. It's just another extreme reaction). I think it might have been better if Octavia started these methods a year in, rather than, I think, 45 days in. They could have shown that all other options were exhausted, instead of jumping right into "Octavia makes it a game to kill". Excellent writers could have made it work, as well. I know the bunker needed a leader at that point, and that's why Octavia stepped up, but the way she went about it, and the way she is now, makes her a pure villain.

[Paloma]

2 hours ago, megsara said:

Octavia is still one of my faves.  I'm not quite sure what else her options were down in the bunker.  For all they knew, they would be stuck down there forever.  Not knowing about the prisoners and their equipment, how else would they have gotten out?  It was either a regular culling of the population or everyone slowly starves to death.

I have never liked Octavia, though I may understand her attitudes and actions. But the problem I have with her decision to use the gladiator arena / Hunger Games to cull the population is how brutal and dehumanizing this method was. 

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I just think that Octavia could have made different choices before it turned into a cult, and that's all on her.

I agree. Did she ever consider another method of culling the population? Granted, there probably were not a lot of humane options for killing people in the bunker (such as a pill or gas that would put people to sleep painlessly), but even if people had to be killed by a weapon it could have been done in a sacrificial manner without forcing everyone to become animals (either as participants or audience). The people selected for each culling could be honored, and executioners who were skilled in the use of a weapon could kill them in the quickest and least painful way. Of course nobody would want to be one of those culled, but if the choice is that or slow starvation people might be willing to accept the culling.

[Efzee]

What I find puzzling is that people are apparently still committing crimes 6 years in, knowing full well what the punishment is. I'm not sold on the cannibalism yet (might be too dark for this show) but if it is true, then wouldn't that be even more of a deterrent? I can understand them not being afraid to fight/kill, since the majority of people in the bunker are/were Grounders and that's pretty much their life. But it seems odd that there is still so much crime that Octavia can pit 4+ people against each other on a seemingly daily basis after 6 years. "Kane" stealing the pills is understandable as it's an addiction and would therefore outweigh the fight/kill consequences in the mind of an addict. But the rest of them? What's there left to steal, anyway, after 6 years? More blankets?

[megsara]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

For me, I think the issue I'm having with Octavia is that she started the whole Hunger Games aspect very, very early on.

That seemed like a direct response to the attempted mutiny.  Maybe they would have gotten to the fighting pits without it, eventually, but at that point they needed to solidify being "Wonkru" and that anyone who threatened the survival of the group as a whole should be punished, via death or "earning" their rights back by "winning" the fight.  Though this method of survival is unsustainable outside of the bunker - as much as I love Octavia there is certainly enough to worry about with her leadership style.  It will be hard if not impossible to get her out of Red Queen mode. Maybe Bellamy could have eventually gotten through to her, though his relationship with Echo will complicate that.  I wonder if Maddie, with her hero-worshiping, will have a part to play.  

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, Efzee said:

What I find puzzling is that people are apparently still committing crimes 6 years in, knowing full well what the punishment is.

It was clearly shown that Octavia's definitions of a crime = any petty crime that escalated towards anything that could be said against her (Bellamy and Kane) to the gladiator ring games turning into Octavia alone deciding the fate of the winner (Kane). Totalitarian regimes (which the Bunker is obviously of of) are good for that kind of wrapped logic and the mass executions that follow it.

Just now, megsara said:

Maybe Bellamy could have eventually gotten through to her, though his relationship with Echo will complicate that.

Octavia never listened Bellamy at any point in time in the past (maybe when she was 2-years-old?), she's not going to start now. Despite Indra's belief Bellamy's love can save Octavia, I don't think that's actually true or ever was true before. Madi could play a role in saving Octavia, definitely, but at what cost? Clarke is in her irrational mama bear mode would not let Octavia nowhere near Madi and vice versa.

Edited May 24, 2018 by CooperTV

[Sakura12]

I think Bellamy's relationship with Echo is going to ruin any traction he made with Octavia, which wasn't much since she still threatened to kill him if he ever questioned leadership again. I have no idea who would be able to get through to Octavia now. Indra is the only one that has a little bit of her trust and is still thinking logically. 

[mxc90]

10 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

While I do think some of Wonkru is completely loyal to Octavia. I think Clarke just planning ahead would get some of the Bunkerkru to start following her. Octavia's charge ahead no matter what is going to get people killed.  She wasn't going to retreat from a freaking missile.  If she goes to war with that kind of planning it will be a very short war that none of her people will survive

When people were being rescued/lifted from the bunker, there had to have been some who kissed the ground then sprinted to the woods and not look back.

[CooperTV]

8 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I have no idea who would be able to get through to Octavia now. Indra is the only one that has a little bit of her trust and is still thinking logically. 

I'm thinking that at some point this season Octavia is going to be overthrown for not being murdery enough by someone like Kara. Despite the pre-season 5 Octavia is the Serpent hype I don't think Jason Rothenberg has the guts to kill any of the main characters anymore, especially Octavia. The show is playing too safe with the mains for several seasons now.

[paulvdb]

16 hours ago, Efzee said:

But it seems odd that there is still so much crime that Octavia can pit 4+ people against each other on a seemingly daily basis after 6 years.

Not on a daily basis. There were 1200(?) people in the bunker at the start and 800(?) left after 6 years, so 400 people were killed. That means that they could not have had gladiator games more than once a week (and even less often than that if multiple people were killed each time). With 4+ people and one survivor once or twice a month would be the maximum or else more than 400 people would have been killed in the gladiator games. With daily games the entire population of the bunker would already be dead (6 years is more than 2000 days).

[CooperTV]

59 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

Is it? They just killed Jasper, Roan (series regular for season 4) and Jaha over the course of this and last season. But I do also think that Clarke, Bellamy and Octavia are the main three of the show and will not be killed. 

Yeah, Clarke, the Blakes and Raven are not going anywhere. Even though I've no idea how they manage to turn Octavia around after two and a half seasons of her being insane murderer. Oh well, she's a classic Creator's Pet so I made my peace with it.

Roan (and also Luna), despite being promoted to the series regular, was a secondary character at best, up there with Miller in terms of character development (as in: non-existent and is only a foil for a conflict, like Echo this season). Add Illian to that group because his entire arc was rubbish and his arc made no sense. But they wanted to kill someone viewers knew but not the main characters. Jasper was supposed to be killed off the second time after s1 in season 3 finale, they were just scared of it being too dark, after the season 3's nonsense and other fan favorites actors leaving. I also think Jaha is now gone because Isaiah Washington decided to quit/his contract ended.

[Daltrey]

On ‎2018‎-‎05‎-‎22 at 7:36 PM, Lady Calypso said:

If we have a main character die this season, I nominate Octavia. She legit started a cult with Wonkru and now all of them are too far gone, but mostly Octavia, who stated multiple times this episode that she chooses Wonkru over her own brother. Though I suspect this probably won't be the case when Bellamy's in danger over a member, or multiple members, of Wonkru, she's still said it. And she's been acting like this dictator, allowing herself to be consumed by her own power. God, she's just the worst.

I wondered how far into the thread I would have to read before I found somebody who felt the same as me. 2 posts, LOL! I don't necessarily want her killed off just yet, but I do hate the way she's being written so far. I really hope something happens to snap her out of this mindset.

[ramble]

I finally watched this. All the episodes at once. It goes quickly when you FF through time killers. Five episodes in and I think, much like the cheese, I stand alone.

I like Octavia. She may be murdery but it’s tv and she works for me. Maybe her ideas and plans don’t make sense, but *shrug* I’m okay with it. I watch this as fantasy entertainment and don’t have any expectation of factual basis for diddly on this show. Y’all can make sense of stuff and question decisions. Logic forth!

I’m going to become friends with the cheese and watch  the silliness of the show and enjoy the girl under the floor  having becomr Blodreina. 

[Efzee]

On 25-5-2018 at 11:09 AM, paulvdb said:

Not on a daily basis. There were 1200(?) people in the bunker at the start and 800(?) left after 6 years, so 400 people were killed. That means that they could not have had gladiator games more than once a week (and even less often than that if multiple people were killed each time). With 4+ people and one survivor once or twice a month would be the maximum or else more than 400 people would have been killed in the gladiator games. With daily games the entire population of the bunker would already be dead (6 years is more than 2000 days).

I merely based that on her making Kane fight again the next day, against another "criminal"/enemy of Wonkru. She apparently already had a couple of people lined up. Why was the guy from the next day not included in his initial fight? How many more were on "death row", waiting to play gladiator?

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, Efzee said:

I merely based that on her making Kane fight again the next day, against another "criminal"/enemy of Wonkru. She apparently already had a couple of people lined up. Why was the guy from the next day not included in his initial fight? How many more were on "death row", waiting to play gladiator?

I assume that, unless there are special circumstances like Kane's win not counting, she has a list of people to fight but they have to wait at least a week to fight to the death, but there's obviously something to predetermine who fights in what week, especially if not all of them are outright enemies of Wonkru. They obviously have to wait at least a week in between the Gladiator Hunger Games in order to get to 400 deaths in 6 years (and we know that they pretty much started the Games right away). It's why I wish they had started all of this at least a year in. It does beg the question on what specifically determines someone to be viable to go on death row, so to speak, how many people typically fight, and what happens during the lulls when there aren't any Games? How did Octavia keep them in line and entertained for six years if they had to spread out the fights in order to reach the 400 dead? It's why I was surprised the number of dead wasn't higher; I was expecting half the bunker to be gone. 

I actually decided to do some math to see how it would work out. I guess, if it was only a few fighting at a time (let's say, five), then they certainly still couldn't have a fight every week; for example, if five people, on average, fought and obviously only four would die, in order to reach 400 deaths in six years, I'd say the Games would have to be held twice a month in order to reach about 400. So it seems like Octavia didn't hold the Games that often, but only when it was necessary. She probably had a list of people next up to fight, but seemed to make them wait for weeks on end. 

I'm suddenly more interested in seeing how Octavia kept the crowd entertained in the meantime. In 5x02, the crowd seemed very power hungry when watching people fight to the death. They certainly cannot make it canon that the Games happened often, or else the numbers should be reversed (400 alive, 800 dead). And, in all honesty, maybe they should have reversed the numbers. It certainly would cement Octavia as a true villain if she had decided to throw people onto death row for trivial things, such as what she did with Kane. 

[AudienceofOne]

54 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I actually decided to do some math to see how it would work out. I guess, if it was only a few fighting at a time (let's say, five), then they certainly still couldn't have a fight every week; for example, if five people, on average, fought and obviously only four would die, in order to reach 400 deaths in six years, I'd say the Games would have to be held twice a month in order to reach about 400. So it seems like Octavia didn't hold the Games that often, but only when it was necessary. She probably had a list of people next up to fight, but seemed to make them wait for weeks on end. 

Population increase through births. Unless they have AMAZING birth control in that bunker.

So the number of deaths is (1200 + births) - deaths = 800. Where deaths = (1200 + births)-800.

With 1200 people, assuming 3/4 of them are child-rearing age (no old people, we saw very few children) and maybe half of them are paired up in heterosexual couples and half of them again had a child in the six years (conservatively round to 200), but some had more than one child (add 50) that's around an additional 250 children. So the number of deaths could be estimated to be more like 650. 

Now we know that the Arkers did have birth control. Although they've never discussed it, I'm assuming they all have contraceptive implants that are removed when they want to have a child and then reinserted. So we can remove the 100 Arkers from that equation. But now my equation involves me starting with 3/4 of 1100 and I'm too lazy to do that. So let's go with 250. 

[Lady Calypso]

25 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Population increase through births. Unless they have AMAZING birth control in that bunker.

So the number of deaths is (1200 + births) - deaths = 800. Where deaths = (1200 + births)-800.

With 1200 people, assuming 3/4 of them are child-rearing age (no old people, we saw very few children) and maybe half of them are paired up in heterosexual couples and half of them again had a child in the six years (conservatively round to 200), but some had more than one child (add 50) that's around an additional 250 children. So the number of deaths could be estimated to be more like 650. 

Now we know that the Arkers did have birth control. Although they've never discussed it, I'm assuming they all have contraceptive implants that are removed when they want to have a child and then reinserted. So we can remove the 100 Arkers from that equation. But now my equation involves me starting with 3/4 of 1100 and I'm too lazy to do that. So let's go with 250. 

True. I never really considered that people would opt for kids in their dire situations, but I guess sex is an inevitability and there'd be no birth control (though apparently Abby could afford to get addicted to pills so they somehow managed to create those in six years) so the births certainly would not be planned. Though, even then, with 650 dead, if we take that at face value, the Games would still be no more than a couple a month, three tops, IF there are still only 5 people, roughly, fighting per Games. Though I suspect, as we've seen, there probably are more fighting, probably closer to ten, and Octavia's bad, but I don't think she'd choose children to fight to the death (though we know the children were at least trained to fight and kill). 

All we do know is that, when they were freed from the bunker, Octavia had been keeping count of how many were dead and how many were alive and we know 812 made it out of the bunker, so even if 250 children were born, there was still a number equating that to who died. I guess it would all depend how many Octavia tossed into the ring at a time. I guess it could still vary from 2 people to 10 or 15 people at a time, which could add an additional Games to the month, or take away. Did they ever get the chance to have a month where no Games-related deaths occurred? Plus, factor in all the people who likely didn't die in the Games, but for other reasons (dehydration, health problems, suicide, etc). It still weighs to one or two Games a month, but they likely could not be weekly, unless there was a decrease in rebels for Octavia to toss into the ring and she cut it down to two or three fighters per Games. The only way for them to have weekly Games would be if Octavia only put a max of three fighters in the pit per Games, adding extra unrelated Games deaths (which, to be fair, would probably be a good sized portion). 

And it seems like Octavia kept track because she felt the weight of all those deaths, but she still is fine with threatening her brother as she seems to consider Wonkru her family more than him. 

I also don't know why I'm spending so much time thinking about this. 400-600 people are still dead because of Octavia's extreme methods to keep people in line. And who knows the extent as to how warped Octavia's mind became over her lust for power, and how affected the rest of the 800'ish people are now. We know some are completely brainwashed. Miller and Jackson certainly are. Kane seems like he snapped out of it recently, or at least finally started rebelling. Abby seems to be separate from everything but she's addicted to pills. 

[AudienceofOne]

8 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I also don't know why I'm spending so much time thinking about this. 

Can't help ourselves, can we? No matter how much detail this show handwaves, we try to make sense of it. Octavia's 'forced march' should have been severely hampered by the fact that a good quarter of the population would have been children. Unless Abby spent the first year doing vasectomies.

[Taryn74]

I don't know, I have a feeling there weren't many children born (or allowed to live) during those six years at all.  I have a really dark suspicion that The Dark Year had more to do with human sacrifices than it did cannibalism, and very strict population control (yes, I'm referring to sacrificing pregnant women and/or babies who were found) may have been a part of that.  Did we even see any children in any of the Bunkerkru scenes?  We saw Gaia scolding Ethan at the end of Eden (and she called him a Wonkru novitiate, which leads me to believe she was grooming him to either take over her role, or serve alongside her in the same sort of capacity) but I don't remember seeing any others who would have been considered children.  I know Kane mentioned children being trained as warriors, but the fact that we never actually see any of them leads me to believe there aren't very many.  Like, at all.  Personally I envision something much like the ancient Spartan culture -- only the very strongest are even allowed to survive, and children are taken from their parents at a very young age to be trained.

Speaking of Gaia......I know everyone is so fixated with Octavia having become Blodreina, but Gaia has played a HUGE part of that.  From my viewpoint, Gaia has almost single-handedly created this Wonkru cult and has honed it - and Octavia - into the horror we are seeing in present time.  I've gone back and rewatched all the S5 episodes with my eye on Gaia, and you can literally see her forming and shaping this violence-based cult in her mind in Red Queen.  "Let the blood of her enemies be her armor" is something she meant literally, and as the only surviving spiritual leader she had full autonomy to create whatever religious atmosphere she wanted.  And Blodreina and a Gladiator cult is apparently what she wanted.

[Paloma]

2 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

I have a feeling there weren't many children born (or allowed to live) during those six years at all.  I have a really dark suspicion that The Dark Year had more to do with human sacrifices than it did cannibalism, and very strict population control (yes, I'm referring to sacrificing pregnant women and/or babies who were found) may have been a part of that. 

I agree. With the already limited food supply, how could they meet the nutritional requirements of pregnant women and growing children (after they finished nursing, if the mothers even could produce enough milk for a few months or a year)? I wonder if Abby was forced to perform abortions, or if the women who got pregnant were just killed...and maybe also the men who got them pregnant.