Dancing On The Grassy Knoll: Conspiracy Theories

[truthaboutluv]

I disagree with this somewhat.  Again, the word "ringer" implies deceit, and the show didn't try to hide their dance background.

 

 

Honestly, maybe it's just the discussions I've been around because until this recent discussion, I had no idea ringer apparently automatically means deceit or dishonest to some. I always just thought the ringer discussion was about whether or not someone had some kind of dance background and if they did, some declared that made them a ringer. Now some use the whole "dance background" accusation far more liberally than others as I've said. 

[smiley13]

I guess the "ringer" definition can vary for people.  To me, it is someone who has had dance and performance training prior to the show.  A person like Riker, who had training to compete and did not disclose it, is a ringer.  As much as I liked him, Corbin was a ringer.   The ringers do not always win, but they are people who enter the competition at an advantage due to their prior training.  Danica McKellar was said to have had ballroom training before the show.  As an ice dancer, Meryl had to have had dance training of some sort.  The show purposely hides people's backgrounds, unless they are someone like Alfonso whose tap training was very well known.

[Stitsch]

By definition, the only ringer to ever appear on the show is Riker. However, the term 'ringer' has been adapted by DWTS fans to blanket almost anyone with dance/performance experience. IMO, a ringer is most clearly defined as either someone with recent dance experience, someone whose career primarily hinges on dance/performance, or someone who has continued their dance training. Zendaya and Nicole Scherzinger are prime examples of this. Jennifer Grey, Elizabeth Berkley, Alfonso Ribiero, and Danica McKeller are not straight up ringers to me, though I am willing to concede that they have an edge over contestants that haven't had any dance training. Amber Riley is a gray area, but I would also most likely classify her a notch above Jennifer/Elizabeth/Alfonso/Danica, while a step below Zendaya/Nicole. Shawn, Nastia, Meryl, Charlie, Evan Lysacek, and Aly Raisman are also gray areas, because while they are not professionally trained in dance, they are disciplined athletes and no doubt have an advantage. Then there are the football players, who are a notch below the gymnasts/skaters, because the majority of them are clunky with no musicality. Putting it in fewer words, there are simply far too many levels of ringer -- and this is starting to feel like a math word problem from the SATs. Mileages may vary, of course.

[katha]

I do agree with most of this.  I think sometimes the producers get hung up when they figure out one of their pros does well with a certain 'type.'  Tony tends to get the older partners or the ones that the producers feel may be 'difficult' because he's shown himself adapt at handling them.  Val did an amazing job with Zendaya - at the time the youngest contestant ever on the show.  I was kind of surprised he didn't continue to get that type, but my guess is that the producers wanted him for the 'heart throb' type, and Mark's just too offbeat at times for that role.  Mark has also shown himself to be good with younger and more difficult types, so now he seems to be the go-to guy for that.  Tristan was as well.  It would be nice if they would change it up from season to season mostly so all the pros have a chance to really show off what they can do.

Yeah, for the long-time male pros, some get a very specific type again and again. Though Emma is already kinda typecast and Peta had a run there of getting "hunks" a few seasons ago.  It's more pronounced with the men, though. Val usually gets the attractive actress types, usually very capable, and often they're encouraged to go the "sexy" route in their dances. Though you had Danica and Liz there in the middle, IMO rather similar to each other, with dance experience and good dancers, but overthinkers. I remember somewhat questioning at the time why they would give Val with his intensity people with such a personality structure, since he's just bound to reinforce their nervous tendencies (not that he didn't try to adapt and help them out, but IMO that doesn't come naturally to him). But they fit his "type", so the producers just went with it anyway.

 

With Mark and Tony it's also interesting how strangely specific it gets. Tony has the older ladies and one kind of "difficult": Celebs who are believed to be "divas", loud, demanding. Mark has the youngsters, the conservative women and another kind of "difficult": Celebs who show themselves to be potentially "fragile" or unsure about themselves and how to approach the show. And I guess to some degree I can't fault them too much for the typecasting, though it gets annoying. When you have people who have a proven skillset, why not go with what you know and you're assured that it won't end with a disaster. Because they might like the headlines and controversies, but I'm not sure they're really interested in the horror that was Hope and Maks for example where it's just negativity and ugliness.

Edited May 22, 2015 by katha

[LadyMustang65]

Honestly, maybe it's just the discussions I've been around because until this recent discussion, I had no idea ringer apparently automatically means deceit or dishonest to some. I always just thought the ringer discussion was about whether or not someone had some kind of dance background and if they did, some declared that made them a ringer. Now some use the whole "dance background" accusation far more liberally than others as I've said. 

 

Here's a good explanation from the Urban Dictionary:  If you enter an amateur baking contest pretending to be self-taught when you're actually a French-trained pastry chef, you are a ringer. A ringer is a contestant who lies about his experience.  The idea of a ringer first developed in horse racing, where fast horses were sometime substituted, secretly, for slower ones — this was originally known as a "ring-in." It's thought to have come from the British term of the same name, which means "substitute or exchange." Ringers are occasionally used in many different sports and competitions, in an attempt to gain a sneaky kind of advantage.

 

Those of us of a certain generation are only familiar with the word in this context, which is why it drives me crazy when people talk about all the 'ringers' on DWTS.  For me the only real 'ringer' in the show's history has been Riker because the show deliberately hid his background.  All of the others have had their training mentioned, at least in passing, on the show.  Or the celebs have been well known enough that you'd have to have been living in a cave for the past 20 years not to know they had some dance experience in their past.  But even then I don't consider them true ringers because they weren't ballroom dancers. 

 

You are absolutely correct about the whole 'dance background' thing being used far too liberally and (oftentimes) ridiculously.  Danica McKellar took some ballroom lessons when she was younger.  She was never a ballroom dancer,  never was what anyone would generally construe as 'trained' as a ballroom dancer, never competed.  But some applied the "ringer" status to her.  By that standard, Sherri Shepherd was also a ringer because she took some ballroom lessons shortly before appearing on the show.  I've seen others claim that Shawn was a ringer but Aly wasn't, apparently because although they both would have had the same dance training, Shawn was actually good at picking up the dancing and Aly wasn't.  Talk about a subjective and situational definition. 

 

Anyway, that's why I would love to see some different categories/terminology developed so that when we are talking about these things, we're all kind of on the same page.  There's a lot of misunderstanding because so many people are using the same word to mean wildly different things.  It may be a fool's mission, but what the hey - we've got about 5 months to kill before the next season.  <lol>

[LadyMustang65]

By definition, the only ringer to ever appear on the show is Riker. However, the term 'ringer' has been adapted by DWTS fans to blanket almost anyone with dance/performance experience. IMO, a ringer is most clearly defined as either someone with recent dance experience, someone whose career primarily hinges on dance/performance, or someone who has continued their dance training. Zendaya and Nicole Scherzinger are prime examples of this. Jennifer Grey, Elizabeth Berkley, Alfonso Ribiero, and Danica McKeller are not straight up ringers to me, though I am willing to concede that they have an edge over contestants that haven't had any dance training. Amber Riley is a gray area, but I would also most likely classify her a notch above Jennifer/Elizabeth/Alfonso/Danica, while a step below Zendaya/Nicole. Shawn, Nastia, Meryl, Charlie, Evan Lysacek, and Aly Raisman are also gray areas, because while they are not professionally trained in dance, they are disciplined athletes and no doubt have an advantage. Then there are the football players, who are a notch below the gymnasts/skaters, because the majority of them are clunky with no musicality. Putting it in fewer words, there are simply far too many levels of ringer -- and this is starting to feel like a math word problem from the SATs. Mileages may vary, of course.

 

And therein lies the rub.  I think you've very accurately demonstrated the difficulty of the situation.  And far too many people are inclined to lump all of those examples together as ringers, which clearly makes no sense.  I also think many people are inclined to not really understand the difference between the kind of dance training an ice skater or gymnast receives and the kind of training an actual dancer on a floor receives.  So they think that 'dance elements' in a floor routine equates to actual dancing.  Or ice 'dancing' is the same thing as ballroom dancing.  Did Meryl have a huge advantage on her competition?  Sure.  As did Charlie.  Do I think they were "ringers?"  Not for a second.  But that's just me.  Others think differently.

[realdancemom]

If you go by the correct definition of ringer, then Riker would be considered this.  However, as I previously posted, I think he only has Latin experience not standard.  It doesn't really matter but I just wanted to point that out.

 

However, in most cases, I do see it used for anybody that is capable of good dances.  It's been used for Apolo and football players.  They are athletes.  They do have discipline.  But we have seen athletes like Hope, Martina, Diana Nyad that are also disciplined but not dancers.  I see Apolo grouped with other skaters like Kristi and Evan.  The latter two are ice skaters while he is a speed skater.  You have to learn choreography as an ice skater.  Apolo didn't have to do that.  Please note that I'm not saying that Evan and Kristi were trained dancers.  I'm just stating that they had a little more of an advantage than Apolo for DWTS.

 

We may never agree on what ringer means.  All I know is that I want to see good dancing.  So I agree with those that don't mind ringers (using it in the general sense).  I also understand why production gives certain pros certain types.  I believe that the reason why Val got Zendaya instead of Mark is because of her height.  Zendaya is 5 feet 10 inches.  She was too tall for Mark.  Sadie looked tall but she is 5 feet 5 inches.  I got these heights on-line so they might not be exactly correct but I'm sure they're close.  I also think TPTB want Val and Artem to play the sexy role.  That's why they dance with their shirts off a lot.  Mark is creative so he can use that creativity to do fun routines that are not sexy for young or conservative contestants.  I must say that Candice showed that you can dress modestly and still look sexy.

[LadyMustang65]

We may never agree on what ringer means.  All I know is that I want to see good dancing.  So I agree with those that don't mind ringers (using it in the general sense). 

 

Absolutely!!  :)

[Andiethewestie]

 

If you go by the correct definition of ringer, then Riker would be considered this.  However, as I previously posted, I think he only has Latin experience not standard.  It doesn't really matter but I just wanted to point that out.

Yes, it's Latin Ballroom experience, but he also has Jazz and Hip Hop experience and has been a choreographer for his R5 shows. His Jazz had some fairly advanced steps like a pirouette and a axel, he didn't learn those from Allison.  So he's had prior experience either as a competitor or a performer in 2/3 of the dances he did on DWTS.  I'd say that's pretty much ringer territory. I don't know of any other competitor that had prior experience with 10 out of the 15 dances performed on the show. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by Andiethewestie

[realdancemom]

Yes, it's Latin Ballroom experience, but he also has Jazz and Hip Hop experience and has been a choreographer for his R5 shows. His Jazz had some fairly advanced steps like a pirouette and a axel, he didn't learn those from Allison.  So he's had prior experience either as a competitor or a performer in 2/3 of the dances he did on DWTS.  I'd say that's pretty much ringer territory. I don't know of any other competitor that had prior experience with 10 out of the 15 dances performed on the show. 

 

Yes, but he didn't hide his jazz and hip-hop experience.  I was using him in the original ringer definition as hiding his Latin experience but not standard since he didn't have any previous experience in that.

 

Maybe it's because I was a dancer but I thought it was obvious that he didn't learn pirouettes and an axel from Allison.  He also did inside and outside turns.  Lately, they usually only teach outside turns now.

 

And going back to not caring about ringers, I loved his jazz trio.  Because he was a ringer and Allison's specialty is jazz/contemporary, those two dances were above the usual jazz/contemporary routines that you usually see from pros and their stars.  If the show had a bunch of mediocre dancers, I would not be watching.

Edited May 22, 2015 by realdancemom

[Andiethewestie]

And when did Riker do that? When he was about to dance the Jazz Trio, week 8..  Not really what I would call forth coming. In fact there was a bit of arrogance in how he disclosed that. They chose Britany because she could dance at the level Allison and he danced at... interesting.   He's given a pass, when I'm sure any of the others would be taken to task. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by Andiethewestie

[crowceilidh]

I'm all for finding more specific terms than ringer.  The problem is that "professionally advantaged (Scherzinger)" is one heck of a mouthful, in comparison to ringer, as is "somewhat experienced (Alfonso)", as is "trained athelete(Apolo)".

[Andiethewestie]

I am always of the opinion that a ringer is a hustler. One that doesn't disclose their background in order to get ahead in a competition. Emmitt Smith first coined the phrase about Mario Lopez when he said he had no dance experience whatsoever, and then Jimmy Kimmel made a mockery of it on his show   

[Andiethewestie]

 

Or ice 'dancing' is the same thing as ballroom dancing.  Did Meryl have a huge advantage on her competition?  Sure.  As did Charlie.  Do I think they were "ringers?"  Not for a second.  But that's just me.  Others think differently.

To be honest I didn't even watch season 18 because it was pre-ordained from the announcement that Charlie and Meryl were on the show that one of them would win. To me that takes all the fun out the competition when you have athletes that have all that dedication taking ballroom dance lessons in order to become the best in the world in their sport.  

 

I've since watched Meryl's dances on ytube and they are exquisite, but that was expected. They never deliberately hid their background, but there are those who think Ice Dancing has nothing to do with Ballroom dancing, when it was developed specifically by ballroom dancers to dance ballroom on ice.  

 

"Though the sport of ice dancing continues to evolve, ballroom dance remains its

heritage and a key component of competitions for nearly 150 years"  (source: icedancers.com)

 

Charlie and Meryl took ballroom dancing on a weekly basis in order to win the Olympics.  

 

"Our typical training week is Monday through Friday. We are on the ice from 7am until noon or 1pm with a half hour break somewhere. Then, on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, we work out at the gym for an hour and a half. On Tuesday and Thursday, we will supplement our training with ballet or ballroom classes. So we keep pretty busy," states Meryl

Source:

https://celebrity.yahoo.com/news/meryl-davis-charlie-white-39-fitness-road-sochi-162259126.html

Edited May 22, 2015 by Andiethewestie

[PBGamer89]

An argument can be made for days upon days about ringers, but at the end of the day, if weren't for them, the show would've been cancelled a long time ago.

 

It's fun at times to watch the Bills and Kelly Osbournes compete and go from "eh" to "eh, not bad", but without the Nicoles, Myas, and Zendayas, it would've gotten boring fast to watch such mediocrity.

 

I agree with those who've said that ringer only really constitutes if it's prior ballroom training and/or the star doesn't speak up about it. Biggest case in point was Riker who was guilty of both.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Given that there have been multiple confirmed reports through the years that negotiations take place with potential stars who may join the cast, it is absolutely inevitable that favors are given to some, but not all.   Obviously, the pairing of celeb and pro is the #1 point of most such negotiations.  The question to me is how often does a celeb screw-up by requesting a given pro when another would have been a better fit, and how often does BBC America steer certain relationships to enhance the show?

 

That Derek has completely avoided geriatric partners is no coinkydink.  Now, Mark Ballas is the designated youth mentor.  Cheryl was a very interesting case.  Once in awhile, she got real contenduhs, others, she got a huge, legendary, star, like Wayne Newton.  Was she negotiation fodder for him, and others?  I believe so.

 

I am certain that BBCA has certain hoped-for scenarios before each season.  However, if a given compelling storyline develops - especially if it involves an older celeb like Tommy Chong, they are all too happy to grease things for them.  Conversely, if a given celeb is not a team player and uncooperative, they break out their 60 passenger accordion buses and flatten them.

 

Now that Derek has but one year under contract, it will be quite interesting to see what he may wrangle by way of concessions and star selection.  He really does not need the show nearly as much as it needs him.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Lonesome Rhodes

[Andiethewestie]

 

I agree with those who've said that ringer only really constitutes if it's prior ballroom training and/or the star doesn't speak up about it. Biggest case in point was Riker who was guilty of both.

 

Well he is but people don't care.  It used to be that the show didn't care what background training you had, as long as it wasn't ballroom. Now even that rule is thrown out the window.  For me, if I think it's a totally unfair competition I just don't watch.  But I'll always root for the contestant who is learning proper ballroom technique for the first time from the pros on the show.  It seems pointless to watch someone who knows as much or more than the pro. The teacher student dynamic - the pro/amateur combination is what is exciting for me, and I think that's what made this show special in the first place.  Lose that dynamic and it's just another couple of pro entertainers out dancing the earnest learner. 

[fpbl83]

Why does there have to be a narrative?  Why do they have to go through so much just to get a certain pro a win?  But since it seems like that's the way it goes now, I can see them going for Sharna (she's getting a lot of face time from her pairing with Noah and she is a fringe Fam member) or maybe Mark who apparently hasn't won in a while.  Derek is never winning again.  He's got five and they figure that's enough.  I can see them trying to get Val a back to back win.

Maybe it's wishful thinking but I have a feeling they want a female pro to win, probably Emma or Sharna. The women don't seem to get enough credit as it is, so it would be nice to spread the wealth a bit. That's why I was pleased to see Alfonso and Witney do so well together. I think DWTS is slightly sexist TBH - it's like they have this attitude of "we'll throw the women a bone once in a while, but we can't let them equal the male pros".   

 

I don't think Mark, Derek or Tony will ever win again.

Edited May 23, 2015 by fpbl83

[Andiethewestie]

Maybe it's wishful thinking but I have a feeling they want a female pro to win, probably Emma or Sharna. The women don't seem to get enough credit as it is, so it would be nice to spread the wealth a bit. That's why I was pleased to see Alfonso and Witney do so well together. I think DWTS is slightly sexist TBH - it's like they have this attitude of "we'll throw the women a bone once in a while, but we can't let them equal the male pros".   

 

I don't think Mark, Derek or Tony will ever win again.

 

Never say never.  In 20 seasons men have won 9 and women have won 11 - not a bad showing for the male winners. .  

 

Edited May 23, 2015 by Andiethewestie

[fpbl83]

 

Never say never.  In 20 seasons men have won 9 and women have won 11 - not a bad showing for the male winners. .  

 

In recent years I feel like it's become lopsided though - gone are the days when we had four straight male celebs win. Maybe the next year will be different now that all the big male pros have won.  

[McManda]

In recent years I feel like it's become lopsided though - gone are the days when we had four straight male celebs win.

 

For sure. In earlier seasons it was always "what does a woman have to do to win?!?!" and now, in the past 6 season, 5 of the winners have been female. And for the record, that's longer than the streak that sparked the outrage that a woman couldn't win (Kelly Monaco won (depending on who you ask) in S1 and then a woman didn't win again until S6 with Kristi Yamaguchi. And after that it was 3 women, Donny Osmond, women, 3 men, a run of women, Alfonso, and now Rumer.)

[calipiano81]

For as much criticism they get, notice that the female celebs didn't start dominating until Ballas/Hough came in.

But regardless, I am always happy for a female celeb to win, because generally, IMO, they are expected to do way more actual dancing, more difficult choreography, and are held to a higher standard than the male celebs (again, generally) by both the judges and audience.

Also, females are more naturally inclined for dancing...so a great female celeb dancer most of the time is going to get a lot closer to looking like a professional than a great male celeb. Put her with one of our amazing male pros and you get a season full of great dancing (as opposed to someone being a pole for the female pro to dance around).

Edited May 23, 2015 by calipiano81

[PTVjones]

 

It's fun at times to watch the Bills and Kelly Osbournes compete and go from "eh" to "eh, not bad", but without the Nicoles, Myas, and Zendayas, it would've gotten boring fast to watch such mediocrity.

 

I always rejoice when someone recognizes Mya as one of the best contestants this show has had as she is NEVER mentioned by the show, I think that's partially because Dmitry had a relatively short tenure on the show. However, if there's an All-Stars Pt. 2, count me in as someone who'd like to see her back on the show. 

 

As far as female pros are considered, even if Julianne was not a judge for the show, I would still say that Julianne is the most well known and successful female pro the show has had. Perhaps it's because she's a Hough, or because of her relationship with Ryan Seacrest, or the few movies/albums she's put out, but she by far has the biggest name recognition of any female pro and she was only one the show for what... 4 seasons? As compared to pro likes Edyta, Karina, Anna, Kim and Cheryl. Lets hope Cheryl will get her shine on the new NBC show.

 

In order for a female pro to have the kind of name recognition that Julianne has, they have to get the right kind of publicist to get them to be a crossover success. That could be Maxim/GQ covers (lets face it, the reason why the male pros are more "famous" is because mostly women watch DWTS, the women need to do something to do the male equivalent), hosting gigs for E!, Access Hollywood, or maybe something more "millenial" focused like Buzzfeed, or maybe become the principal dancer for a big name artist male or female like Beyonce, Justin Tim. or Bieb., Usher, Pharrell, etc. Basically, something other than DWTS and their respective tours. With all that being said, I clearly do not know how stifling their ABC contracts are. 

[PBGamer89]

I always rejoice when someone recognizes Mya as one of the best contestants this show has had as she is NEVER mentioned by the show, I think that's partially because Dmitry had a relatively short tenure on the show. However, if there's an All-Stars Pt. 2, count me in as someone who'd like to see her back on the show. 

 

Could you imagine her with Artem or Val? That'd be some insane dancing and routines! I did see her in the audience back in season 18.

 

She suffered from being in a season with Donny. Any other season, she would've easily won. Honestly, even if Dmitry didn't botch their freestyle, she would've lost either way.

[Alapaki]

Well.  Finally something to talk about in this thread.  We are to believe that Maks and Bruno, who have been judges (and in Maks' case also judged) for years suddenly forgot that the Judges can't change their scores after they're "submitted to the control room"?

 

It was clear from both of their reactions that neither one held up a 10 for Nyle by accident, or forgot that they'd "written down" 9s.  

 

Frankly I thought even the 9s were bullshit.  

 

I'm guessing that the script was for Nyle to get pimped, score-wise (although I find it hard to believe he's hurting for votes), and Maks and Bruno misinterpreted what scores they were supposed to give.  

 

I think this episode is probably the clearest evidence yet that the scores are all predetermined.

[TeeMo]

I wondered if Maks thought it would look fishy for him to give Peta's partner his first 10 of the season so he wrote down a 9 but then when he realized Len was giving a 10, he figured he could change his score? 

 

I can't remember when it happened but I do remember a paddle versus the written down score issue in another season. 

[Alapaki]

But that wouldn't explain Bruno.

 

I seem to recall the prior incident being with Carrie Ann, which I assumed was simply attributable to Vodka and Xanax.

[TeeMo]

But that wouldn't explain Bruno.

I seem to recall the prior incident being with Carrie Ann, which I assumed was simply attributable to Vodka and Xanax.

I also think it was Carrie Ann and your explanation of that seems pretty spot on. Ha.

[vavera4ka]

But iirc CAI held up one number but said another, so it was a bit more believable that it was her mistake.

Here both held up 10 and said 10.

Idk if it's pimping up Nyle (I honestly don't care, since he is my fav and i really want him to win lol) or for some other reason but it looked a lot more fishy than what CAI did few seasons ago...

Edited April 19, 2016 by vavera4ka

[Saylii]

My guess is that no one was allowed to give a 10 tonight. Len broke the rules. Once Bruno and Maks realized what Len had done once they started to confer, they wanted to change their scores to 10's. The producers said no, but they held up the paddles anyways. Bruno and Maks didn't seem shocked that their scores were overturned and seemed annoyed that the judges wouldn't change them.

[Uke]

I wonder at what point Rob Wade went to the judges table  https://twitter.com/DWTSGossip/status/722267892884967424

[PBGamer89]

It dawned on me that Nyle got the first 9 and 10 of the season so I did a little info digging on Wiki to see who of the people who got the first 9 or 10 went on to win and who didn't.

 

First 9 and won: Drew Lachey (S2), Apolo Anton Ohno (S4), Kristi Yamaguchi (S6), Brooke Burke (S7), Nicole Scherzinger (S10), Hines Ward (S12), Amber Riley (S17), Alfonso Ribeiro (S19), Bindi Irwin (S21)

 

First 10 and won: Kelly Monaco (S1), Kristi Yamaguchi (S6), Brooke Burke (S7), Nicole Scherzinger (S10), Jennifer Grey (S11), Meryl Davis (S18), Bindi Irwin (S21)

 

First 9 and lost: John O' Hurley (S1), Mario Lopez (S3), Sabrina Bryan (S5), Melissa Rycroft (S8), Aaron Carter (S9), Audrina Patridge (S11), Chynna Phillips (S13), Katherine Jenkins (S14), Sabrina Bryan (S15), Zendaya (S16), Candace Cameron Bure (S18), Nastia Liukin (S20)

 

First 10 and lost: Stacy Keibler (S2), Joey Lawrence (S3), Joey Fatone (S4), Sabrina Bryan (S5), Lil' Kim (S8), Mya (S9), Romeo (S12), Ricki Lake (S13), Katherine Jenkins (S14), Gilles Marini (S15), Zendaya (S16), Christina Milian (S17), Janel Parrish (S19), Nastia Liukin (S20)

 

So what can be gathered from this is the majority of the stars who earned the first 9 and 10's went on to lose their season.

 

9/21 winners got the first 9, and 7/21 winners got the first 10. Nyle got both, and only 4 other winners managed to get both and win (Kristi, Brooke, Nicole, and Bindi). If Nyle wins, he'll be only the 5th star to nab the first 9 and 10 and the only male celeb winner to do so.

 

So all in all, while it's not unheard of for the winners to get the first 9 and/or 10, but the stats show the majority of them don't win.

[Thadeeeyus]

I think this episode is probably the clearest evidence yet that the scores are all predetermined.

 

This has been my opinion for years, so, yeah.  Don't know what happened in this case, but I think some of the scoring issues in the past have occurred when the live dance differs greatly from the dress-rehearsal dance and that causes confusion.  I firmly believe the judges are told what total score a certain dancer has to get but it is left to the judges to decide who gives what.   There was obviously miscommunication somewhere last night with Nile's score. 

[Saylii]

This has been my opinion for years, so, yeah. Don't know what happened in this case, but I think some of the scoring issues in the past have occurred when the live dance differs greatly from the dress-rehearsal dance and that causes confusion. I firmly believe the judges are told what total score a certain dancer has to get but it is left to the judges to decide who gives what. There was obviously miscommunication somewhere last night with Nile's score.

I have always thought the judges know what someone's minimum score is to escape elimination based on the previous week's vote totals. There have been too many instances when a decent dancer gets a random 9 or 10 to push them past a fringe contestant. Then for someone that's overstayed their welcome, the scores go down slowly every week.

It's also pretty common that the dress rehearsals are "scored" by producers, the judges watch the rehearsal tape before the show in their trailers, and then "judge" the real dance live.

[Alapaki]

I have always thought the judges know what someone's minimum score is to escape elimination based on the previous week's vote totals. There have been too many instances when a decent dancer gets a random 9 or 10 to push them past a fringe contestant. Then for someone that's overstayed their welcome, the scores go down slowly every week.

 

 

I agree that the Judge's know the results of the prior week's viewer vote at the beginning of each subsequent week.  However, my understanding is that, usually, elimination decisions in any given week are based on Judges' Scores and Viewer Votes from the prior week only.  In other words, the Judges' Scores from Week 2 are not added to the Judges' Scores and Viewer Votes from Week 1 to calculate the Week 2 elimination (i.e the elimination decision is already locked in, and nothing the last-place team (based on Week 1) does on Week 2 can save them).

 

However, and knollishly, this switch-up week is one time when that's not the case.  The Judges know where everyone stands after last week, thus presumably know what sort of scores they most likely needed last night to pull them through the elimination which will be announced next week.  

 

Of course, as I said initially, I think this is all academic as it applies to Nyle, as I can't imagine he's in real jeopardy and, if he was, the mistake would've gone the other way (i.e. Maks and Bruno holding up 9s but the scores being "reported" as 10s).  I think the prospect of TPTB targeting Nyle is even less likely than their having to prop him up.

 

But, as I said, I think this provides positive confirmation of what's been done in other instances for Stars or Teams that did need propping up.

 

On a separate note, TPTB's explanation of this whole thing is ridiculous.  Why couldn't a Judge choose to change his initial score (presumably rendered upon watching the dance) after having the q&a exchange with the team?  For example, let's say Keo's answer about why he avoiding dancing "in hold" changed the Judge's assessment of the dance (either positively or negatively).  Why shouldn't the Judge be allowed to factor that into their final score?  The only reason they've given is that the on-screen graphic would have to be changed, relatively on the fly.  But, please.  That takes, oh about a second.  And we're not talking about algebra here.  It's a matter of adding 3 or 4 Judge's scores (which will inevitably range between 6 and 10).  

 

The fact that they're explanation is such bullshit just, IMO, makes their case weaker.

[dwtsgueststars]

I wonder at what point Rob Wade went to the judges table  https://twitter.com/DWTSGossip/status/722267892884967424

This is interesting because it sort of contradict the official explanation that Len heard and wrote 9 instead of 10. Rob is talking to Maks and Bruno, Len seems removed from the conversation.

[backformore]

I'm guessing that the script was for Nyle to get pimped, score-wise (although I find it hard to believe he's hurting for votes), and Maks and Bruno misinterpreted what scores they were supposed to give. 

 

I think this episode is probably the clearest evidence yet that the scores are all predetermined.

 

Yes, it gives a peek behind the curtain, mush like Paula did one season on Idol, when she critiqued a song that had yet to be performed.  

I think that the judges/producers have a pre-determined idea of where dancers should fall in the rankings, and they have to do a little math on the spot to make sure that the scores add up to the right rankings.

 

This is interesting because it sort of contradict the official explanation that Len heard and wrote 9 instead of 10. Rob is talking to Maks and Bruno, Len seems removed from the conversation.

So, the official explanation is that Len doesn't score the dances himself - he has to be TOLD what score to give?   yea, that makes it better!

[Alapaki]

So, the official explanation is that Len doesn't score the dances himself - he has to be TOLD what score to give?   yea, that makes it better!

 

 

I think the "official explanation", although this seems to be referring to Maks' comments after the show, is that Maks and Bruno verbally relay their scores to Len and he writes them on a sheet of paper that he hands in.  Not that Maks and Bruno tell (or suggest) to Len what score he should give.

 

As I mentioned in the episode thread, even if this is true, it's still ridiculous.  Why should a contestant's score be determined by Len's shitty hearing instead of the score that the Judges intended to give?

And, I should add, I think in this particular instance this is the result of the fact that, even with the rampant score-inflation and the fact that the "ten-point" scale is, for all practical purposes, just a four-point scale (from 6 - 10), the show likes to attract some mystical significance to a "10".

[Saylii]

I agree that the Judge's know the results of the prior week's viewer vote at the beginning of each subsequent week.  However, my understanding is that, usually, elimination decisions in any given week are based on Judges' Scores and Viewer Votes from the prior week only.  In other words, the Judges' Scores from Week 2 are not added to the Judges' Scores and Viewer Votes from Week 1 to calculate the Week 2 elimination (i.e the elimination decision is already locked in, and nothing the last-place team (based on Week 1) does on Week 2 can save them).

Generally, the number of votes someone is going to get in a regular week isn't going to fluctuate much.  There may be small bumps when someone is eliminated that crosses fanbases with another star.  Also, there are going to be a small number of viewers who vote based on the best dancer of the week and not their "favorite" star.  The producers can determine with relative reliability who is going to go home next. 

 

Hypothetical:  In Week 4, Jodie and Marla are in the bottom two.  Let's say that Jodie got 150,000 votes and Marla got 100,000 votes.  Let's say Doug was in the bottom three at 175,000 votes.  It's reasonable to assume that Jodie and Doug will get roughly the same number of votes for their Week 5 performance.  The judges know where to score Jodie to eliminate Doug based on the previous week's numbers.  The producers can then further manipulate the voters that change their votes from week to week by giving Doug a bad package and Jodie a favorable package.

 

The only issue becomes if someone is very popular with the fluctuating fan votes like Bristol Palin, Tommy Chong, Bill Engvall, and Chris Soules (why he was that popular I'll never know).  Then becomes the tricky issue of producing neutral packages and respectful judges comments, double eliminations, dance-offs, etc to end up tanking someone's score while not pissing off the viewers.

[Uke]

The only issue becomes if someone is very popular with the fluctuating fan votes like Bristol Palin, Tommy Chong, Bill Engvall, and Chris Soules (why he was that popular I'll never know).  Then becomes the tricky issue of producing neutral packages and respectful judges comments, double eliminations, dance-offs, etc to end up tanking someone's score while not pissing off the viewers.

 

I agree with your discussion of predictability of votes.  They are masters of statistics, that's for sure. And with each passing week, new voting data brings their margins of error down and down.  Once in a while there's a hiccup and people don't vote as expected (or weather or website issues, etc.), but I think most "shocking" eliminations really aren't all that shocking.  But in the case of Bristol, I think they were actively trying to keep her on without being blatant and giving her all 10s every week.  She was bringing in so much publicity, that I think they kept upping her scores to make up for the falloff in votes - even her own fans were noticing how miserable she was and urged each other to hold off on the votes.  Bristol quickly learned, the less hard she worked, the better her scores.  So, the stats aren't used just to get rid of people, I think they are also used to keep people.

[Mondayeve]

I am putting this post here so I don't get a noodle lashing from the mods.

Did anyone read Derek's response about his bad edit and push-gate.

Sigh.  I think I am going to stop watching the roll in packages, all access and just the dances themselves without the judging.  I can't figure out why this stuff is so important.  If Marilu comes out and kills it why would push-gate, etc. matter that much?  Or is it because it makes it look like they are not getting along when Derek says they are.  If so, I can understand his frustration.  On the mother show Strictly Come Dancing they do ridiculous corn-ball little skits instead of rehearsal footage. Maybe they have the right idea.  You can't be influenced by chemistry personality or drama in rehearsal footage or lack of it.

I will just vote for who I like with my uneducated eye that doesn't know good technique when she sees it.  I don't care about a bad edit or producer manipulation since that seems to be the case. 

My question is this:  Do you think the judges are encouraged to give higher or lower scores than they would have if they were left to their own devices?  They make the girls work harder for their scores and praise and give the boys a pass?   That is also the argument.  And the editing packages only capture the tenseness that a couple is having because that makes for good TV?  So really Calvin and Lindsay, James and Sharna are going at in the rehearsal room but they are just not showing their tense moments?  I honestly can't tell.

Of course if I read through this thread I will find all my answers.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Mondayeve

[realdancemom]

Do you have a link to Derek's comment?  I think the packages do influence people.  In the episode thread, we did say that Derek and Marilu don't get along.  That is what the producers chose to show.  I'm sure there are lots of moments where a celebrity gets frustrated and it's not shown.  It probably happens to most if not all the stars.  However, I mostly care about the dancing.  And even if Derek and Marilu get along, it doesn't matter because their dances have been a mess.  I don't enjoy watching them. 

[Mondayeve]

http://www.tvguide.com/news/dancing-with-the-stars-derek-hough-blog-week9-marilu-henner/?rss=breakingnews

[Uke]

Yes, I do think the packages are used to influence voters.  But I also think that they try to show a representative sample** of the week for each couple.  If this alleged discord between Marilu and Derek was just a one-time thing, I'd agree it was probably just a bad edit for "drama".  But we've been seeing this week after week.   Derek's aware of how he looks (or his partnership looks) and he's trying to play it down in his blog.  I'd expect him to do that - any pro would.  Some of his fans on twitter are now also trying to shoot down the impression that they don't get along, it's all "editing" and we're not really seeing what we've been noticing for weeks.  It's a campaign.  

I did read his blog. Last week I think it was all chalked up to Marilu's feet.  This week ribs are added.  Apparently she has some injury or pain involving her ribs.   Who knows.

As for "push-gate", yes, he did push her but I don't believe he meant to knock her to the floor.  I think he meant to give her a little push (or nudge, if you prefer) so that she would go left while he went right and maybe he pushed her a little harder than he meant to, she lost her footing and fell. No biggie.  She wasn't hurt.  I don't think she was lying or getting dramatic when she said "I felt like I got pushed a little".  But Derek is sensitive to the notion he may have gotten a little aggressive.  Again, I do believe it was an accident.

**I mean that if something keeps happening during the week, they'll show a sample of what keeps happening.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Uke

[katha]

Derek and Marilu are this season's designated "drama couple". That's the fate that usually goes to a partnership that isn't ideal and where there's tension, but it doesn't have to mean that the two people hate each other or anything. It just means that there's a lack of compatibility and the producers run with it to produce their soap opera quotient for the week. Because saying that it's no one's fault and for some reason it isn't working out as planned and it happens isn't dramatic enough for them, of course. In former seasons you had Mark and Alexa and Tamar and Val getting similar edits (though of course the dancing was better and I don't even think Tamar and Val were so much "incompatible", as there was just a lot of stress with her schedule and they're both smart-mouthed, strong-willed people which resulted in banter and occasional open conflicts, not necessarily a bad thing. Though for the show it all translates to "drama".). Chris and Witney got edits like that. Maks and Tony had a few partnerships like that. I really think it's "incompatible couple can be used for headlines and scandal!" nonsense and DWTS has been doing it from the start.

That said, I think their dancing and general demeanor shows that this is not the happiest of partnerships and something isn't working. That just doesn't mean that they hate each other or that it's anyone's fault.

[RedFiat]

 Marilu is a decent lady who loves to dance. She represents about 75% of the people I have come across who want to learn and do well, but trip themselves up by overthinking the process. Her competition is half her age, she could be a grandma to the youngest. I only say this because with experience comes caution. The younger you are the more willing your mind can throw caution to the wind and execute. It's not only a physical reality it's a mindset, it is really that momentary  hesitation that somehow she envisions that her movement is not quite the perfect position she had in rehearsal. It is those moments of doubt that betray her.

Because damn if that woman isn't giving it her all, she is going through a lot of unreported physical pain, which in the past would have been presented in the video packages as a badge of courage.

 So I don't buy for a second that she and Derek are having difficulty as partners. He may have a rigorous teaching style but she remains in the studio with him, she's not running off and crying that he is such a bully.  Rather there seems to be a lot of creative editing that he is somehow this horrible passive aggressive person, but the evidence is pretty scant.  I do think there are at times some frustration but it's a process.

I think he had a lot to contend with when he partnered Jennifer Grey who had a lot of health issues, but even with her physical pain Jen was not intimidated by the show, whereas Marilu has been star struck by the show as a big fan and it hampered her growth as a dancer. Her best dance was when she could let go and think about her mom in the Viennese Waltz. If I could give this team any advice

it would be to have Marilu do some visioning exercises, before her performances, sports psychologists do these all the time with elite athletes. Because visioning her mom took her to a wonderful place in the moment on the VWaltz. 

 

 

 

[vibeology]

In that blog, Derek is clearly putting his best foot forward. I have eyes and I can see the awkwardness and tension in the live show, not just in the edited packages. In the moments during judging and with Erin it's there. It's not hate or anything but they don't seem to be on the same page as a couple. And I do think it was very clear that Marilu's feet are hurting based in this week's package. So Derek is, in my eyes, telling his version of the story but I don't entirely believe everything he's saying because I can recognize that it's in his best interest to spin things a little. 

Plus he starts out with a whopper of a lie when he says he's never been the guy with the drama. This must be someone else then. 

[RedFiat]

Wow, to go back almost 10 years to find drama on Derek is interesting, it's also interesting that history hasn't repeated itself like it does with some other pros.  But sure season 6 was not a good season for him sticking up for his crying girlfriend.  Of course he apologized to every cast member who was offended.  I am not Derek's biggest fan, by any stretch but I don't see the connection.

I don't see this as equivalent to the accusation that Derek is deliberately shoving/pushing his partner. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by RedFiat

[vibeology]

I picked that specific clip because it makes me laugh (more for Shannon Elizabeth's paltry list of times she "did the hips"), but my larger point is that people tend to frame stories they tell to paint themselves in the most flattering light. In his blog post Derek says:

Quote

In all of my years on Dancing with the Stars, I've never been involved in a scandal or anything overly dramatic

My point is that's not true. It wasn't true with Shannon Elizabeth. It wasn't true with Brooke Burke, who still brought up their issues years later. It wasn't true with Jennifer Grey. But it serves Derek well to misremember this (and maybe he legitimately is not remembering it accurately. People do that too) and frame himself as someone who always gets along with everyone so that his next claim seems more believable. When Derek is dealing with a partner that he doesn't click with, there seems to be fighting/bickering/drama. Derek's story isn't any more true than the packages. They are both edited stories designed to make viewers/readers feel a certain way. The truth most likely lies somewhere in the middle.

I don't think he and Marilu hate each other. I do think they mostly get along. I do think her injury has been downplayed a little but not scrubbed entirely from the packages. I don't think they've clicked as partners and I do think Derek and Marilu both get easily frustrated with each other because their working styles are probably too similar. I do think Derek has a pretty mean passive-aggressive streak that isn't helping their situation one bit. I do think especially after a performance where things aren't perfect both tend to be angry and it's obvious to viewers. But I also think the show is happy to play up the drama to get people watching and talking.

[RedFiat]

Wait a second. What was so scandalous with Brooke Burke?  or Jennifer Grey... I recall whatever issues they had were dealt with and they remain good friends.  This isn't even in the realm of Hope Solo or Leila Ali or Janel Parrish who aren't even friends with their celebrity partner anymore.  This is a lot of a nothingburger that's trying to be as bad as those, and that's what I find amusing.

Moreover, Marilu had a horrible Charleston, and I was stunned because I saw some really sophisticated Fosse movement from her in rehearsal.  Then when I learned only from his blog that she had significant feet issues and that she could hardly walk,  that's when I thought yeah, the show is more than downplaying the issue, they didn't even mention it in the week that it mattered to the outcome.  Then they mentioned it in passing this week of the AT when her feet were on the mend.  Not really what I call honest editing.     

Edited November 4, 2016 by RedFiat