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Dancing On The Grassy Knoll: Conspiracy Theories


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I don't understand how people think that article means it's rigged. It sounds like some "insider" was talking about what people on the show think will happen. Is there any point to rigging the show anyway? I mean, does it really matter who wins?

  • Love 1
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I thought the same thing. That article did not say Val and Rumer were the winners. It said the insider reported that most of the Proa and troupe believe Val and Rumer will win. The headline declared it but that's a common ploy of gossip sites. They lure us in with a bald-faced lie and if we fall for it, we realize when reading the article itself that we were suckered yet again.

  • Love 2
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I did find the packages last night to appear to be setting up a possible Val win - coming out from his brother's shadow, talking about how he's gotvto be himself, etc. it felt very scripted and as if this had been the narrative plan all along.

  • Love 2
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I did find the packages last night to appear to be setting up a possible Val win - coming out from his brother's shadow, talking about how he's gotvto be himself, etc. it felt very scripted and as if this had been the narrative plan all along.

 

What made me eye roll was Val in his package saying he's done the big productions for the freestyles and it's not him, so he's going to strip it back like this is so new and novel for him. Um, Val, your freestyle last season was essentially just a stripped down/contemporary number with Janel to a slow, acoustic number. It didn't work because one, people didn't care for Janel, two, she'd done a very similar contemporary barely two weeks before and three, it felt like he was copying the strategy Maks used with Meryl. Rumer may very well win but in my opinion it wasn't because this freestyle was truly stellar and amazing but in a sea of mediocre freestyles hers was the best. 

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(edited)

Once the Hough/Ballas wind machine decided that contemporary was the new ballroom, and rules were made to be broken, freestyles suffered.  Before their time freestyles were something to look forward to, even if they were hokey, they moved out of the rules for ballroom.  

 

It's fascinating then that Val returned to quasi ballroom, (Argentine Tango is neither latin or standard but a genre on to itself) and suddenly people are upset he copped out. It was a great strategy to do a Contemporary Argentine Tango style. Argentine Tango wasn't even part of the show until season 8. The pros love trying on this style that is as foreign to them as Argentina is to America. Most all of the pros have very little Argentine Tango knowledge, but they know what looks good on a dance show, and frankly a good Argentine style is better than any freestyle. ever.  Season 10 for example the best dances on the show were selected by the top 3 to re-dance because there's nothing more exciting than an Argentine Tango.   All of the freestyles were not good by comparison and suffered in the scores.  

Edited by Andiethewestie
  • Love 5
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(edited)

This being "Val's season" was one of the storylines they set up this season, so it's not surprising they take that up again. I do think that's the most preferred outcome for production and has been from the start. Like Fons winning last season. Basically everyone knew he had this after the first week. I think season 18 wasn't as clear cut, they would have been fine with Amy as well. Once it became clear Charlie didn't have the votes, they threw him under the bus (I do believe it happened this way around). And they were fine with the M/M juggernaut as well.

Edited by katha
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The producers have shoved Val and Rumer down our throats from day one of this season.  I am not sure why they feel that he is "entitled" to a trophy any more than the others.  They have been trying hard to make him "happen" and for me, he just has not.  They pushed and coddled him and Janel last season and it backfired on them.  

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I never felt that anything was shoved anywhere, especially when Rumer and Val did not have the highest judges scores.

In my opinion, the judges' scores are for the most part meaningless, particularly for producer-driven arcs. It's what they say that matters, rather than the score. For the most part, there's not much deviation between contestants and their scores, especially in the latter half of the season. What's more important to the narrative arcs the producers have decided to present are the judges' comments, as that's what viewers remember. For example, we all remember Bruno calling Charlotte a bimbo, but few would remember her score even a week later. So that's how we have Nastia with better scores but consistently negative commentary, and Rumer with somewhat lower scoring through the season, but more of a winner edit, not just in the packages, but with the judging commentary.

I'm not saying it's rigged for Rumer, but she's definitely been storyboarded by producers as a winner from day one. She and Noah have been given the winner story arc consistently all season. The scores don't have much to do with it, in my opinion.

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In my opinion, the judges' scores are for the most part meaningless, particularly for producer-driven arcs. It's what they say that matters, rather than the score. For the most part, there's not much deviation between contestants and their scores, especially in the latter half of the season. What's more important to the narrative arcs the producers have decided to present are the judges' comments, as that's what viewers remember. For example, we all remember Bruno calling Charlotte a bimbo, but few would remember her score even a week later. So that's how we have Nastia with better scores but consistently negative commentary, and Rumer with somewhat lower scoring through the season, but more of a winner edit, not just in the packages, but with the judging commentary.

I'm not saying it's rigged for Rumer, but she's definitely been storyboarded by producers as a winner from day one. She and Noah have been given the winner story arc consistently all season. The scores don't have much to do with it, in my opinion.

Another example of this is Charlie White, as I already mentioned. When you look solely at his scores, they look mostly appropriate. But somewhere around mid-season (probably when it became clear that he didn't have the votes...and he perhaps wasn't as cooperative with production as they wanted him to be) the judges started going in on him a bit, getting nitpicky. They basically skewered him for his paso doble, you don't see that looking only at his scores. He also had short, uninteresting packages. Just like Nastia with her blah packages and the one hit piece. And you can't tell me that "nothing interesting happened that week", the show is highly storyboarded and scripted, the producers just didn't want to give them a more favourable edit.

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Another example of this is Charlie White, as I already mentioned.

 

 

And Apolo in All Stars. His scores were mostly okay the same way but for weeks the comments were all about the things he wasn't doing right, he and Karina apparently having no connection, them seeming tense with each other and the few positive comments were basically some dismissive good job. On the flipside we had CAI and Bruno practically falling out of their seats for every mediocre performance by Melissa. I guess it would have been too glaring if they'd tried it with Shawn because she was way too good but yeah they sure talked up Melissa throughout the season like what she was doing was super amazing.

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I disagree that the producers story board a winner or winners. I think the show follows the vote.  If the vote is waining for a particular star then the packages reflect that. It  would not be in the best interest of the show to knock someone out if they are popular with the voters. 

 

For example Apolo Ohno, he wasn't happy with anyone but Julianne. He wasn't douchey about it, like Gilles Marini,was about Cheryl being replaced by Peta, but it was obvious from the first week this wasn't going to be an easy season for him. He was out of the show for several seasons and it would take a lot to get him back to the dance form that he won with. I would hazard that if Julianne was available he would have faired far better. But, his mindset was the partnership and that propelled him and the scores in season 4. It would be no more in Season 15.  The voters wanted him with Julianne. Karina is a great dancer, but she isn't the "cute couple" version 2.0

 

Melissa is not a great dancer imho, but she did have a certain charisma dancing with Tony in season 8 and that allowed her to not have any misgivings about the "partnership"  They were all smiles during their dances, a brother sister vibe, and that resonnated with the voters. 

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I disagree that the producers story board a winner or winners. I think the show follows the vote.  If the vote is waining for a particular star then the packages reflect that. It  would not be in the best interest of the show to knock someone out if they are popular with the voters. 

 

For example Apolo Ohno, he wasn't happy with anyone but Julianne. He wasn't douchey about it, like Gilles Marini,was about Cheryl being replaced by Peta, but it was obvious from the first week this wasn't going to be an easy season for him. He was out of the show for several seasons and it would take a lot to get him back to the dance form that he won with. I would hazard that if Julianne was available he would have faired far better. But, his mindset was the partnership and that propelled him and the scores in season 4. It would be no more in Season 15.  The voters wanted him with Julianne. Karina is a great dancer, but she isn't the "cute couple" version 2.0

 

Melissa is not a great dancer imho, but she did have a certain charisma dancing with Tony in season 8 and that allowed her to not have any misgivings about the "partnership"  They were all smiles during their dances, a brother sister vibe, and that resonnated with the voters. 

 

To me, the All Stars was a great example of TPTB following the votes for how they storylined and scored couples.

 

From Week 1 they wanted Gilles. They gave him the reigning champ, they gave him heaps of praise for about 4/5 weeks. When he started showing his douchey side, I think his votes really started slipping and noticing that's around when Melissa won the marathon and started getting her 10's and Gilles started getting lower scores. I think Kelly and Shawn really were the top vote getters all along and they only way to get a new All Star winner was Melissa at that point and they did everything they could to counter act Shawn winning. She was due to reprise her fusion, but they changed it last minute to their Quickstep and the viewers once again got reminded of their rule breaking in the finals and Melissa got to reprise her strongest dance along with 2 sets of 30's that night.

  • Love 1
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Rumer and Val danced beautifully and connected with each other from Week 1. It was hardly an earth shaking comment for Len to make that they might win and neither Len nor the other judges made that kind of statement about them for the rest of the show, nor did they give them scores that in any way intimated they were pushing for them to win. My god, Carrie Ann actually said mid way through the season that Chris (!!!) could win it all.

 

Meanwhile, as in most other seasons, the Houghs - including their actual relatives - were coddled and given every possible advantage from constant pimp spots to dreamy sunset video spots to personal song performances. To build a big conspiracy around a reasoned, albeit throwaway, comment about Val and Rumer from Len really stretches credulity.

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(edited)

I will never believe that Melissa would have won the All Star season without producer manipulation. From the undeserved tonguebaths they received, the nitpicking or dismissiveness of their competition from the judges, and the reminders that they were the only ones without a MBT, the producers' desired outcome was pretty clear to me.

To top it off, Melissa's manager being Deena Katz didn't sit right with me.

I haven't seen that kind of push to get Rumer and Val the MBT. If they win, and I believe they will, it is earned IMO.

ETA:

it would take a lot to get him back to the dance form that he won with

Apolo, IMO, was a better dancer in the All Star season than he ever was in season 4.

Edited by Mbeaker
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Apolo, IMO, was a better dancer in the All Star season than he ever was in season 4.

 

I never thought his dancing was particularly that earth shattering either season. I still think his win in season 4 came from Julianne's fresh choreo and their chemistry.

  • Love 4
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(edited)

I never thought his dancing was particularly that earth shattering either season.

He was the best of the men in the All Star season, and bested by the women only by Shawn and Sabrina. Mileage varies but for me, in terms of male stars, he's in the all-time top 5. Only Alfonso, Corbin, maybe Gilles of season 8 were better than All-Star version Apolo. Mario Lopez is somewhere in there too, though not as high for me as for some others, b/c I've mostly found him to be overrated. And given his day job, I was underwhelmed by Charlie in his season. I expected so much more.

Edited by Mbeaker
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Melissa is not a great dancer imho, but she did have a certain charisma dancing with Tony in season 8 and that allowed her to not have any misgivings about the "partnership"  They were all smiles during their dances, a brother sister vibe, and that resonnated with the voters.

 

It was also a nice change for Tony to get someone capable (and fun), instead of his usual trainwreck/older contestant usual. I thought it brought out a much better side of Tony than say, his partnership with Kate Goesslin. Plus, at the time of S8, Melissa was coming off the Bachelor drama, so people felt for her.

  • Love 3
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Well, now every guy who's been in the T3 multiple times has won.

 

(2x female finalists are exempt, esp as all are off the show - Edyta after S10, Lacey S13, Anna S15.)

 

So next season there's no obvious Narrative...I guess unless they decide it's time for Derek to "redeem" himself after being 4th twice.

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(edited)

I thought of Charlie and Apolo as two who got the negative edits that Nastia is being pitied for having. Unlike Nastia, though, both men seemed connected with their partners IMO and looked like they were enjoying the whole DWTS experience. With Apolo, it seemed like Karina was being punished for not being Julianne that season, and while I do think Sharna did not meet the sky-high expectations as a teacher and choreographer for Charlie, she did a solid job as well. With those two, I definitely felt the presence of undermining judges' comments and storyboarding. Nastia? Yeah, chemistry is subjective but she just did not appear to display any exuberance or charisma needed for various dance styles. Passion, genuine fun, romance, intensity? Nada, at least not until Sasha entered the picture. I don't think Nastia got a bad edit, she was an uninspiring performer for the majority of her run, and to say she lacks a warm, camera friendly personality is an understatement. I don't think any "fix" was in to boot her out of the finals to pave the way for the other finalists. On paper she and Derek were the frontrunners. So it was actually surprising that their high scores, Derek's fanbase and Nastia's appeal to Middle America only got them through 4th place.

 

As for Melissa I think she was a fine dancer, who had just as good, if not better technique than Shawn. Shawn just had better routines.

Edited by tearbender
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I think if anyone gets a narrative, pro wise, it'll be Mark seeing as his last win was in season 8.

 

The elimination results reminding me of season 11's, almost down to a tee!

 

12th: David Hasselhoff-Redfoo (People who TPTB likely didn’t see going first)
11th: Michael Bolton- Charlotte McKinney (both left after rude comments from Bruno)
10th: Margaret Cho- Michael Sam (both left after dances with a LGBT theme)
9th: The Sitatuon- Suzanne Somers (Honestly I got nothing for this one)
8th: Florence Henderson- Patti LaBelle (the token older woman)
7th: Audrina Patridge- Willow Shields ( strong dancers who left being towards the top of the leaderboard but small fan support)
6th: Rick Fox- Robert Herjavec (Both middle aged men who excelled better in ballroom)
5th: Chris Soules- Kurt Warner (Both weaker dancers who had a strong fan base but at t his point clearly the weakest link)
4th: Brandy- Nastia Luikin (the frontrunner who shockingly left in the semis despite 10’s the previous night)
3rd: Bristol Palin- Noah (the one who was the weakest one in the finals and appealed to the typical “middle America” voting block)
2nd: Kyle Massey- Riker (the young male star who was entertaining but not the best technique at times)
1st: Jennifer Grey- Rumer (the season long frontrunner who was on top at the premiere but had a few rougher weeks in the middle, but prevailed in the end

  • Love 7
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(edited)

Count me in as someone who thought Apolo got g***** in the All-star season. He may have not of had the same chemistry with Karina as he did with Julianne, but I still saw chemistry. They got along just fine. I also thought he had improved over his season 4 dances. I thought he had much better technique and a better personality than Gilles, and Warren (? Was that who it was??). I thought he should have at least made it to the finals.

Anyways, now that Val has his mirrorball, I wonder who the producers will focus more on next season? Sharna? She seems to be a fan favorite (honesty I liked her best her first season on the show).

Edited by HoodlumSheep
  • Love 1
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Count me in as someone who thought Apolo got g***** in the All-star season. He may have not of had the same chemistry with Karina as he did with Julianne, but I still saw chemistry. They got along just fine. I also thought he had improved over his season 4 dances. I thought he had much better technique and a better personality than Gilles, and Warren (? Was that who it was??). I thought he should have at least made it to the finals.

Anyways, now that Val has his mirrorball, I wonder who the producers will focus more on next season? Sharna? She seems to be a fan favorite (honesty I liked her best her first season on the show).

 

 

If not Mark, I'd like to see Kym or Emma win (since we'll never get Lacey or Anna back).

 

Part of me wants Derek win just to watch the internet break.

  • Love 1
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(edited)

I think if anyone gets a narrative, pro wise, it'll be Mark seeing as his last win was in season 8.

 

The elimination results reminding me of season 11's, almost down to a tee!

 

12th: David Hasselhoff-Redfoo (People who TPTB likely didn’t see going first)

11th: Michael Bolton- Charlotte McKinney (both left after rude comments from Bruno)

10th: Margaret Cho- Michael Sam (both left after dances with a LGBT theme)

9th: The Sitatuon- Suzanne Somers (Honestly I got nothing for this one)

8th: Florence Henderson- Patti LaBelle (the token older woman)

7th: Audrina Patridge- Willow Shields ( strong dancers who left being towards the top of the leaderboard but small fan support)

6th: Rick Fox- Robert Herjavec (Both middle aged men who excelled better in ballroom)

5th: Chris Soules- Kurt Warner (Both weaker dancers who had a strong fan base but at t his point clearly the weakest link)

4th: Brandy- Nastia Luikin (the frontrunner who shockingly left in the semis despite 10’s the previous night)

3rd: Bristol Palin- Noah (the one who was the weakest one in the finals and appealed to the typical “middle America” voting block)

2nd: Kyle Massey- Riker (the young male star who was entertaining but not the best technique at times)

1st: Jennifer Grey- Rumer (the season long frontrunner who was on top at the premiere but had a few rougher weeks in the middle, but prevailed in the end

Very good analysis.  I also think Rumer's technique was similar to Jennifer's.  Also, Jennifer had her Oscar winning dad in for a pep talk in one of the packages. Jennifer also had A-listers rooting for her like Michael J. Foxx and Jamie Lee Curtis. Some of my favorite dances from Jennifer was her VWaltz and that stunning Argentine Tango.   

Edited by Andiethewestie
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(edited)

I think if anyone gets a narrative, pro wise, it'll be Mark seeing as his last win was in season 8.

 

The elimination results reminding me of season 11's, almost down to a tee!

 

I didn't copy your whole post but wanted to say that I'm very impressed with your comparisons.  I didn't even remember most of the contestants until you posted this.

 

As for the All Star season, I didn't watch the earlier seasons of DWTS.  So I don't know how Shawn, Apolo, Mellisa, Giles danced previously.  I thought Apolo's and Karina's chemistry was fine.  They might not have been a fun couple because they are both hard workers and came off a little serious.  But it's not like I saw them arguing or anything like that.  Karina gave him really tough choreography and I thought the judges were really critical with him.  Shawn and Derek were fun to watch.  Giles seemed arrogant and thought he was very sexy.  He was a good dancer but his personality turned me off.  Melissa was beautiful in the standard ballroom and contemporary type dances.  She was o.k. with the Latin dances like the Paso even though she needed more intensity in her performance.  She was terrible with any Latin like the samba, cha-cha, etc. that required hip action.

Edited by realdancemom
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There are two things I keep thinking of when considering "producer manipulation" on this show. They're a little bit nerdy, so I apologize in advance. ;)

 

The first is an episode of Doctor Who, where the British Prime Minister pisses off the Doctor, and he responds by saying, "I can bring down your administration with 6 words." And then he leans over to one of her staff members and whispers, "Don't you think she looks tired?" And by the next day, the news media has exploded, "Is the Prime Minister sick? The job's taking too much out of her! Is she up to the task?!" 

 

That's what it feels like happens here. Nastia: "Don't you think she looks wooden and bitchy?" Charlie: "Don't you think he looks boring?" A whisper becomes the narrative, and when you can whittle down a week of footage into a minute and a half, it's not possible to have NO agenda. 

 

In terms of agenda, the second is in the first Hunger Games book/movie, when Katniss is busy when she first gets into the arena finding food and water, using all her survival skills to stay alive and away from the other contestants. And the Gamesmakers (producers) go, "UGH, boring, we're losing our audience, lets set everything on fire so they're forced into each other's paths to get some action going." THATS what I consider the driving motivation behind any producer storyline manipulating. Nastia is too focused on the dancing and not giving them soundbites about "drama" in rehearsal? Sandbag her with a negative package and see how she reacts. (The audience will love it! Or hate it! But they'll talk about it!) Val is getting too focused on just getting Rumer to the finale? Set him up by making him point out Nastia's flaws, show that, and set him right into the path of the fan's Chmerkovskiy vs Hough battle. (Hurray, everyone's talking about it again!) 

 

If the entire show is a game, the producers ultimately win by gaining attention. And that's their motivation. 

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So next season there's no obvious Narrative...I guess unless they decide it's time for Derek to "redeem" himself after being 4th twice.

 

Anyways, now that Val has his mirrorball, I wonder who the producers will focus more on next season? Sharna? She seems to be a fan favorite (honesty I liked her best her first season on the show).

 

Why does there have to be a narrative?  Why do they have to go through so much just to get a certain pro a win?  But since it seems like that's the way it goes now, I can see them going for Sharna (she's getting a lot of face time from her pairing with Noah and she is a fringe Fam member) or maybe Mark who apparently hasn't won in a while.  Derek is never winning again.  He's got five and they figure that's enough.  I can see them trying to get Val a back to back win.

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I think if anyone gets a narrative, pro wise, it'll be Mark seeing as his last win was in season 8.

 

The elimination results reminding me of season 11's, almost down to a tee!

 

12th: David Hasselhoff-Redfoo (People who TPTB likely didn’t see going first)

11th: Michael Bolton- Charlotte McKinney (both left after rude comments from Bruno)

10th: Margaret Cho- Michael Sam (both left after dances with a LGBT theme)

9th: The Sitatuon- Suzanne Somers (Honestly I got nothing for this one)

8th: Florence Henderson- Patti LaBelle (the token older woman)

7th: Audrina Patridge- Willow Shields ( strong dancers who left being towards the top of the leaderboard but small fan support)

6th: Rick Fox- Robert Herjavec (Both middle aged men who excelled better in ballroom)

5th: Chris Soules- Kurt Warner (Both weaker dancers who had a strong fan base but at t his point clearly the weakest link)

4th: Brandy- Nastia Luikin (the frontrunner who shockingly left in the semis despite 10’s the previous night)

3rd: Bristol Palin- Noah (the one who was the weakest one in the finals and appealed to the typical “middle America” voting block)

2nd: Kyle Massey- Riker (the young male star who was entertaining but not the best technique at times)

1st: Jennifer Grey- Rumer (the season long frontrunner who was on top at the premiere but had a few rougher weeks in the middle, but prevailed in the end

 

Wow! Great comparisons.

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The moderator asked that we bring any discussion of “ringers” over here, so ta da!  I would like to have a serious discussion about this issue because it is one that causes a great deal of dissension among fans, and maybe if we can discuss this a bit before next season, we can all have a lot more fun.  

 

Here are my thoughts:  A ringer is defined as an imposter brought in to cheat.  By that definition, which is pretty standard, the only true ringer they’ve ever had on the show is Riker.  Riker was a competitive ballroom dancer.  That’s a fact.  He didn’t compete for long, and it was a few years back, but the fact remains that he was intensively ballroom-trained and competed against some of the pros now on the show.  Additionally, the show deliberately hid that fact from viewers.  He’s a “ringer,” plain and simple.  I don’t think there’s any getting around that.

 

So what about the others that have gotten the “ringer” label?  I don’t really consider them “ringers.”  If you’ve ever watched “So You Think You Can Dance,” then you know how hard it is for dancers trained in other genres to master ballroom quickly.  Or look at Allison.  She’s a fantastic contemporary/jazz dancer and she’s had some ballroom training, but she’s not a great ballroom dancer.  She gets the steps down, but she struggles with the nuances of the dance.  So just because a contestant has had some type of dance training at some point in their life doesn’t make them a ringer. 

 

What it does make them is an “advantaged” contestant, if you will.  Or as truthaboutlove put it in the other thread, a “more than capable” contestant.  And that covers a lot of people – people who have some dance background but are not ballroom dancers, people like gymnasts who get some dance training but are not ballroom dancers, people like ice skaters who also get some dance training but are not ballroom dancers, even people like cheerleaders who also have some dance training and have experience learning choreography but are not ballroom dancers or singers/musicians who would naturally be expected to have a sense of rhythm and some musicality, but are not ballroom dancers.  All those types of activities give them a bit of an advantage because some things will come more easily to them than to others, but it does not make them ringers.  Even athletes would fall into the category of ‘advantaged’ contestants because they have the discipline to really push themselves hard for long periods of time, and they know how to focus and take coaching.  IMHO, of course.

 

The reality is that if you were to take out all the contestants who could be considered ‘advantaged’ contestants, we’d be left with the Kenny Maynes, Tommy Chongs, Bill Engvalls, Rob Kardashians, etc.  We might occasionally be surprised by them, and we might see some good to really good dancing, but we’re not likely to see really spectacular dancing, and we are likely to see a lot of bad dancing.  The show would not likely last that long.

 

And, as truthaboutlove also put it, there are certain pros that the producers see as more popular and who bring in viewers, so it is not or should not be unexpected to see them consistently get ‘advantaged’ or ‘more than capable’ partners.  The producers want to see them last further into the competition.  So Derek, Mark and Val will most likely get good partners each season.  I think those are the ones the producers see as having their own sizeable fan bases.  I don’t think there are currently any comparable female pros, although I think Cheryl and Karina were ones you generally expected to get either ‘advantaged’ celebs or at least ones with decent fan bases to start with.

 

As always, YMMV, but I’m interested in what others think about this.

  • Love 4
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(edited)

LadyMustang65 - I'm not going to repost but I generally agree with your analysis. Plus, I am too exhausted to have the debate about categories of ringers, levels of ringers etc. I will run screaming from that never ending, circular debate.

 

I think we all know that Mark, Derek & Val will probably never get an older lady contestant. I'm more conflicted about the "type" of celeb a pro gets. It would be interesting if they gave Val an athlete for example, or Mark a celeb around his age. It might be cool to see some different dynamics.  Sometimes the dynamics don't work though i.e. Mark & Christina Milian but it would be exciting and a change of pace.

Edited by RemoteControl88
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(edited)

I don't know that I agree with Allison being brought up as an example to suggest people with dance experience, albeit not ballroom, aren't considered ringers. Sure, Allison's technique in Ballroom and Latin are lacking. But that's because we're comparing her to the other pros, not the celebs. If she were competing on DWTS as a celeb, she'd be one of the ringeriest ringers that ever did ring. I mean, if she couldn't fake it well enough she wouldn't have been asked to be a pro in the first place. Same for any past SYTYCD contestant. I think there are varying degrees of ringer-ness; and celebs with extensive dance training, even if not ballroom, rank high on that scale IMO.

Edited by Mbeaker
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MBreaker - I would agree that if Allison were brought in as a contestant, she would be a ringer.  But she's had ballroom training.  It's not her primary focus, and she didn't start training in it until after she was thoroughly trained in another style.  I didn't intend to suggest that she would not be a ringer if she were a celeb.  I was trying to point out that even with all her training, they are trying to pass her off as a pro, and it's not working because even as a highly trained dancer, she has her deficiencies in ballroom.  It's a very different genre.  So when people say that Amber, Corbin, Alfonso, Nicole, etc. were ringers because they had done some type of dance in their background or that Jennifer Grey was a ringer because she learned a little bit of ballroom for a movie 20 years ago, I disagree.  I think they have an advantage, but I don't consider them ringers.  In some cases their past dance experience can be a liability because they have to unlearn habits formed in other styles that do not work in ballroom.  That can actually be harder than learning new habits fresh.

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I think we all know that Mark, Derek & Val will probably never get an older lady contestant. I'm more conflicted about the "type" of celeb a pro gets. It would be interesting if they gave Val an athlete for example, or Mark a celeb around his age. It might be cool to see some different dynamics.  Sometimes the dynamics don't work though i.e. Mark & Christina Milian but it would be exciting and a change of pace.

 

Derek has had two 'older' lady contestants - Jennifer Grey was 50 and Ricki Lake was 46.  They're not Cloris Leachman or Patti LaBelle old, but I think they qualify as older.  Mark has had partners around his own age - Christina Milian, Chelsea Kane was in her early 20s, I think, Sabrina Bryan is also early 20s, I think.  Val has never had an athlete, but he did have the youngest contestant on the show before Willow when he danced with Zendaya.  He did a great job with her.  Derek has yet to have a really young contestant.  I think Shawn Johnson was 20 or so when Derek was her partner during the All Stars season.  Or was Bethany younger?  I can't remember - wasn't she at least 18? 

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MBreaker - I would agree that if Allison were brought in as a contestant, she would be a ringer. But she's had ballroom training.

My understanding is that Allison didn't start training in ballroom until after she signed on as a DWTS pro. I should have clarified: in my eyes, she'd be a big ringer even before her ballroom crash course. Her extensive training in other genres is enough to qualify her as such.

Edited by Mbeaker
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Yeah Bethany was 18 and I'm pretty sure she was Derek's youngest celebrity partner. The funny thing about Derek is that while yes, he's never had a Cloris Leachman, most of his partners have actually been older than him. Many of them have just looked very good for their age so it didn't show but Jennie Garth was quite a few years older than him because that was his first season and I think he was only 22 or 23 and she was in her 30's. And Shannon Elizabeth, who he dated, was 12 years older than him. I think the only partners Derek has had who were younger than him was Bethany and Shawn and I think he and Amber were about the same age. Even Amy was older than him. 

 

And by the way, speaking of Cloris Leachman, may I just say, since these women, Cloris and Florence Henderson, constantly get brought up to say "why doesn't Derek get someone like them and only Tony does", that actually for both these women, Corky Ballas was brought onto the show to be paired up with them. So in other words, not even Tony as had a 70+ year old woman. 

 

About the ringer issue, for me it is pretty simple. I do think the ringer label gets thrown around far too liberally. And in my opinion, particularly if the celebrity is paired up with a Pro one doesn't like, the slightest advantage and talent quickly gets them labeled as a ringer, almost as a way of discrediting the talent and hardwork of the celebrity and the Pro. So it's sort of a dismissive way of saying, "well of course they're good, they're a ringer anyway."

 

And while I will be the first to admit when some celebrities have certain advantages versus another, I don't think that automatically makes them a ringer. In my opinion a ringer is someone who has had significant dance training, whatever the style may be. So Corbin, Nicole, Alfonso, Elizabeth, Meryl, Riker, Zendaya were all ringers. Nastia, Shawn were not, just because they were gymnasts and Amber wasn't simply because she starred on a show that required her to run around doing basic elementary school choreography. 

 

And finally, I have no problem with ringers or celebrities with some advantage, be it flexibility, musicality, etc. being on the show because as I said once before, I have zero interest in watching two hours every week of poor to mediocre dancing. I want to see amazing performances and hell, it's why I've said, I do feel like the finale lost out on something not having Nastia there. Because I think it would have been awesome to see her and Rumer, the two best dancers in my opinion this season, go toe to toe at the end. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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Derek has had two 'older' lady contestants - Jennifer Grey was 50 and Ricki Lake was 46.  They're not Cloris Leachman or Patti LaBelle old, but I think they qualify as older.  Mark has had partners around his own age - Christina Milian, Chelsea Kane was in her early 20s, I think, Sabrina Bryan is also early 20s, I think.  Val has never had an athlete, but he did have the youngest contestant on the show before Willow when he danced with Zendaya.  He did a great job with her.  Derek has yet to have a really young contestant.  I think Shawn Johnson was 20 or so when Derek was her partner during the All Stars season.  Or was Bethany younger?  I can't remember - wasn't she at least 18? 

 

I should clarify. I didn't mean "older lady" in age...more agility coupled with age. ie. Patti Labelle or Suzanne Sommers etc. None of the three will get the "senior selection" if you will...though I realize they might get partners older than them.

 

In general it just feels like for the last couple of seasons (in a row) they haven't mixed up the casting. Mark having back to back very young dancers or someone that appeals to middle America. Val has gotten the actress for the last few seasons. Some of the best partnerships for me, are when they go for an unexpected dynamic and it works.

 

For example:

-Artem got the Tony assignment (as did Tony) being partnered with Patti...unexpected pairing (coming off his partnership with Leah) and it was fun to watch.

-Val partnered with Zendaya (coming off his season with Kelly Monaco) was refreshing and also a cool partnership.

 

It would be cool to see something different.

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I'm thinking that one of the problems with the "ringer" discussion is that some people think "Ringer - BAD" and others think "Ringer - No prob." As long as the two different connotations are routinely used for the same word, the discussion is going to keep getting people worked up. 

 

Maybe we need a different terminology.

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I'm not sure how "ringer" could get a positive connotation, though.

 

ringer: (1): one that enters a competition under false representations (2): imposter, fake

 

While I think that there's a place for a ringer on DWTS (we don't want a whole season of Kenny Maynes or Michael Boltons, right?) I do think it's unfair for people like, say, Nicole Scherzinger, where with their experience come in predisposed to be great dancers, to compete against people without the same experience. Especially back when they were all vaguely held to the same standards.

 

Of course, this is a less a problem now that each celeb is scored on some arbitrary scale based on their own limitations and abilities and however the judges and producers are feeling that night, so maybe it doesn't matter so much anymore.

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About different "types": I thought at the time and still think that Lea with Mark would have been interesting. Her and Artem for me weren't an ideal pairing, she was sort of overthinking, too much in her own head all the time and Artem didn't seem to know how to break her out of that and sometimes even seemed to reinforce that. I don't blame either of them for this, sometimes things just don't click. And Artem was great with Patti, a totally different personality. Mark did great with Candace and her stage fright, I also thought Katherine Jenkins for all her talent and abilities was someone who could have been a nervous wreck with the wrong partner. She was still in her head too much at times, but it didn't become a massive issue. He's good with nervous partners like that.

 

Selfishly, I want Mark with someone who has some potential so he can choreograph interesting things on them and isn't stuck forever on the bare basics. But even a limited partner like Candace eventually started putting out enjoyable performances (adjusted for her of course: Contemporaries, samba, jazz were nice...the AT was gorgeous and one of the highlights of season 18 for me). So I just don't want him with totally hopeless cases like Bristol, I think every fan of a pro thinks like that. And yeah, at this point I would appreciate it if the partner wasn't conservative and/or super young. Been there, done that. Why not someone like Lea? Or someone his own age? And not of the "dancing for Jesus" type. They can be beginners, he gets them more often than not anyway. And getting ringers is always tied to all that hassle and resentment, not worth it. As long as they're somewhat capable and willing to put in the work, I'm fine. I'm sure the producers have just waited with bated breath for my input on all this. (-:

Edited by katha
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My understanding is that Allison didn't start training in ballroom until after she signed on as a DWTS pro. I should have clarified: in my eyes, she'd be a big ringer even before her ballroom crash course. Her extensive training in other genres is enough to qualify her as such.

 

That is my understanding as well, but I would not personally classify her as a "ringer."  The word "ringer" has a negative connotation.  There is no way around that.  The word itself means deception.  As long as the show acknowledged that Allison had extensive training as a dancer, I would not call her a ringer.  But I would also not expect that the show would ever bring on someone like her as a contestant.  At least they haven't so far.  And if they did, I would expect her to fall short of a win based both on what I would expect to be a natural audience bias against someone with that much experience competing against beginners and because of her personality (assuming she acted similarly to the show). 

About the ringer issue, for me it is pretty simple. I do think the ringer label gets thrown around far too liberally. And in my opinion, particularly if the celebrity is paired up with a Pro one doesn't like, the slightest advantage and talent quickly gets them labeled as a ringer, almost as a way of discrediting the talent and hardwork of the celebrity and the Pro. So it's sort of a dismissive way of saying, "well of course they're good, they're a ringer anyway."

 

This.  100%.  Beautifully put.  :)

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Fair enough. I'm simply saying *my* definition is the same as truthaboutluv's

In my opinion a ringer is someone who has had significant dance training, whatever the style may be. So Corbin, Nicole, Alfonso, Elizabeth, Meryl, Riker, Zendaya were all ringers.

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And while I will be the first to admit when some celebrities have certain advantages versus another, I don't think that automatically makes them a ringer. In my opinion a ringer is someone who has had significant dance training, whatever the style may be. So Corbin, Nicole, Alfonso, Elizabeth, Meryl, Riker, Zendaya were all ringers. Nastia, Shawn were not, just because they were gymnasts and Amber wasn't simply because she starred on a show that required her to run around doing basic elementary school choreography.

 

I disagree with this somewhat.  Again, the word "ringer" implies deceit, and the show didn't try to hide their dance background.  It's also interesting to me who have you included in your list.  Nicole does pop video dancing, yet you would classify her as a ringer but not Amber who probably actually has far more dance experience than Nicole and of a similar type.  You also include Elizabeth Berkley.  She trained as a dancer when she was young, but while I could be wrong, it's been close to 20 years since she really did any dancing.  Alfonso is pretty much the same way - he trained and danced professionally when he was younger, although in a much different style than ballroom, but it's been years since he was really considered a dancer for anything other than the Carleton.  And since the show didn't try to hide any of their dance experience, I wouldn't call them ringers.

And finally, I have no problem with ringers or celebrities with some advantage, be it flexibility, musicality, etc. being on the show because as I said once before, I have zero interest in watching two hours every week of poor to mediocre dancing. I want to see amazing performances and hell, it's why I've said, I do feel like the finale lost out on something not having Nastia there. Because I think it would have been awesome to see her and Rumer, the two best dancers in my opinion this season, go toe to toe at the end. 

 

This also 100%.  :)  I wanted Rumer to win, but the voters flubbed it big time imho by not putting Nastia into the finals as well.

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I'm thinking that one of the problems with the "ringer" discussion is that some people think "Ringer - BAD" and others think "Ringer - No prob." As long as the two different connotations are routinely used for the same word, the discussion is going to keep getting people worked up. 

 

Maybe we need a different terminology.

 

Agree 100%, which is kind of why I started this conversation.   As McManda pointed out, the word "ringer" in and of itself has a bad connotation.  Ringers are imposters brought in for the purpose of cheating.  There's no way to give that a good spin.  Some people feel it's not a problem because they want to see good dancing and don't care, while others reject the notion that those good dancers are somehow cheating by being on the show.  To call them ringers basically puts into question every one of their wins as being somehow not legitimate.  That they only won because they cheated.  Which is why I too would like to see a different word or description used for those contestants.  Whether you call them "advantaged" or "more than capable" (MTC for short??) or something else doesn't really matter.  But I personally really dislike calling them ringers because it is a derogatory term.  There's simply no way of getting around that.  I still firmly believe that the only true "ringer" on the show was Riker because he was a trained ballroom dancer, and the show not only never disclosed that fact but seemed to downplay his dance experience with his band as well.

About different "types": I thought at the time and still think that Lea with Mark would have been interesting. Her and Artem for me weren't an ideal pairing, she was sort of overthinking, too much in her own head all the time and Artem didn't seem to know how to break her out of that and sometimes even seemed to reinforce that. I don't blame either of them for this, sometimes things just don't click. And Artem was great with Patti, a totally different personality. Mark did great with Candace and her stage fright, I also thought Katherine Jenkins for all her talent and abilities was someone who could have been a nervous wreck with the wrong partner. She was still in her head too much at times, but it didn't become a massive issue. He's good with nervous partners like that.

 

Selfishly, I want Mark with someone who has some potential so he can choreograph interesting things on them and isn't stuck forever on the bare basics. But even a limited partner like Candace eventually started putting out enjoyable performances (adjusted for her of course: Contemporaries, samba, jazz were nice...the AT was gorgeous and one of the highlights of season 18 for me). So I just don't want him with totally hopeless cases like Bristol, I think every fan of a pro thinks like that. And yeah, at this point I would appreciate it if the partner wasn't conservative and/or super young. Been there, done that. Why not someone like Lea? Or someone his own age? And not of the "dancing for Jesus" type. They can be beginners, he gets them more often than not anyway. And getting ringers is always tied to all that hassle and resentment, not worth it. As long as they're somewhat capable and willing to put in the work, I'm fine. I'm sure the producers have just waited with bated breath for my input on all this. (-:

 

I do agree with most of this.  I think sometimes the producers get hung up when they figure out one of their pros does well with a certain 'type.'  Tony tends to get the older partners or the ones that the producers feel may be 'difficult' because he's shown himself adapt at handling them.  Val did an amazing job with Zendaya - at the time the youngest contestant ever on the show.  I was kind of surprised he didn't continue to get that type, but my guess is that the producers wanted him for the 'heart throb' type, and Mark's just too offbeat at times for that role.  Mark has also shown himself to be good with younger and more difficult types, so now he seems to be the go-to guy for that.  Tristan was as well.  It would be nice if they would change it up from season to season mostly so all the pros have a chance to really show off what they can do.

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I think the greatest advantage the so called ringers have is the ability to learn choreography at a quicker rate. It allows them to focus on the performing aspect and put it all together, as opposed to those who are sloppy technique wise, but entertaining, or the opposite end of the spectrum of just being technically proficient.

For me, Riker was sloppy, but entertaining. Meryl and Nastia, technically proficient but forgot their dances soon after. Someone like Alfonso or heck even Charlie had both aspects down. One won, the other? Sigh.

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