S13.E21: Beat The Devil

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Dean is literally standing there over the vampire, when you hear Sam eagerly go "Wait, wait, wait, I got it!" and he comes scampering up from the rear of the group, rushing past everyone to get the kill. It was just silly.

I was wondering if I saw that wrong.  That would make sense if it were Krissy or Claire, but I never really got the feeling that Sam cared all that much about the actual kills (except perhaps when he was soulless.

Sometimes their reliance on pop culture references annoy me.  Because they fly right over my head and I have no idea what they are talking about.

[catrox14]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Dean left Sam's body behind in 11,17.  It was only after the mission was complete and he got the civilians to saftey that he did something.   He only did what he did after the girl gave him the idea. 

The difference is that Dean saw Sam's body in 11.17. He touched him and was convinced with his own eyes that Sam was dead and then he left to save the lying werewolves.

  I think upon my rewatch the way the scene played was more effective because I could focus on the interaction between Dean and Cas and I get why Dean believed Cas because of the acting.  Writing wise I still think it's a little side eyey to have Cas even try to stop Dean but the acting sold it more upon my rewatch.

[lovebug871]

13 hours ago, patty1h said:

Slightly off-topic:  I'm in NY - did other markets get 2 commercials during the episode, for the NJ Spn convention in September, with Misha's voiceover as Castiel?  I never saw cons advertised on TV before.  

I have been getting the same for the Charlotte area convention for about a month.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I think you can always tell when this was one of the main items on the writers' checklist for an episode; often they try so hard that it comes across as contrived and artificial. One example from this episode was when they first come across one the vampires feeding in the tunnel; Dean is literally standing there over the vampire, when you hear Sam eagerly go "Wait, wait, wait, I got it!" and he comes scampering up from the rear of the group, rushing past everyone to get the kill. It was just silly.

I think the episode was schizophrenic that way. 

The first half Berens makes sure that Sam has the plan for Lucifer, he gets the most kills, he makes the hero speech, he kind of calls the shots in AU-world. It was the propping part. 

Then he suddenly dies and it is basically a set-up for Lucifer to come on over and bring him back. And this is where it shifts all to Lucifer. Sam is forced to be indebted to him and work w ith him and "shamefully" bring him back to camp. This is the "fuck you, Sam, Lucifer is where it`s at" part. 

The writers must be super in love with the character. Dabb and Singer said as much during the producer`s preview for this episode. 

Honestly, I thought the side characters did get the best part here. Gabriel/Rowena, Gabriel/Lucifer, Lucifer/Rowena, Gabriel/Castiel. I thought they got the best scenes. Sam`s part was schizophrenic and Dean`s part was, while not offensive, very muted. 

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The difference is that Dean saw Sam's body in 11.17. He touched him and was convinced with his own eyes that Sam was dead and then he left to save the lying werewolves.

  I think upon my rewatch the way the scene played was more effective because I could focus on the interaction between Dean and Cas and I get why Dean believed Cas because of the acting.  Writing wise I still think it's a little side eyey to have Cas even try to stop Dean but the acting sold it more upon my rewatch.

IMO, there can be no doubt Sam wasn't alive.   We saw blood spurting.  No way Sam last more than a minute or two at most.

The scene read to me that Cas saw the body.  I liked him stepping in front of Dean to try and spare him more pain. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

IMO, there can be no doubt Sam wasn't alive.   We saw blood spurting.  No way Sam last more than a minute or two at most.

The scene read to me that Cas saw the body.  I liked him stepping in front of Dean to try and spare him more pain. 

 

Dean and Cas both saw Sam attacked and saw the blood.  Then he was dragged into the nest. Cas didn't think he was necessarily dead because he chased after him shouting his name and Dean was steps behind shouting Sammy! Then Cas comes back out  moments later and and says he was gone. So if Cas thought he was alive why shouldn't Dean?

Look I am not angry with Cas. I just think that was no point in having Cas stop Dean other than to accommodate the shocking! Reveal for Sam to walk back into the camp and have everyone stand around in awe at Sam's resurrection and then possible betraying them all with the Lucufer reveal.

Edited May 4, 2018 by catrox14
mobile posting is terribad

[Casseiopeia]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean and Cas both Sam be attacked and saw the blood. . Then he was dragged into the neat. Cas didn't think he was necessarily dead because he chased after him shouting his name and Dean was steps behind shouting Sammy! Then Cas comes back out  moments later and and say he was gone. So if Cas thought he was alive why shouldn't Dean?

 

Look I am not angry with Cas. I just think that was no point in having Cas stop Dean other than to accommodate the shocking! Reveal for Sam to walk back into the camp and have everyone stand around in awe at Sam's resurrection and then possible betraying them all with the Lucufer reveal.

Why did Cas say there was no time?  What time frame were they working on?  Lucifer was replenishing the spell bowl with is grace wasn't that supposed to buy them more time in AU world?  Why were Cas and Gabe depowered, did I miss an exposition somewhere?  I need to rewatch, I think I missed something.

[Bobcatkitten]

All I could think at the end was how guilty Dean is going to feel that it was Lucifer to find and save his brother. That is going to absolutely kill him. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

Why did Cas say there was no time?  What time frame were they working on?  Lucifer was replenishing the spell bowl with is grace wasn't that supposed to buy them more time in AU world?  Why were Cas and Gabe depowered, did I miss an exposition somewhere?  I need to rewatch, I think I missed something.

I have no idea what time frame they were working on. They didn't have the 24 hour thing since they trussed up Lucifer. There is no sense of time at all in these episodes anymore. Cas and Gabe's powers are all a function of Plotonium.  It's like someone decides they have to get the characters all in place for PLOT PLOT PLOT. Cas apparently has GPS to know they were in Kentucky? But neither he nor Gabriel can sense Lucifer afoot?

I really thought there would be a reveal that Cas saw a dead Sam and an alive Lucifer who would have told Cas that he would resurrect Sam.  And that's why Cas was keeping Dean from Sam. Yet, it seems that Cas was just as shocked as everyone else to see an alive Sam and then Lucifer.

 

Too many logic holes on this one.  And throwing a bone of "Dean emotion" at me doesn't make it any better. 

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

  And throwing a bone of "Dean emotion" at me doesn't make it any better.

This has been a trend since Dabb took over.  It's give the fans what they want so they will quit bitching about scripts.  Basically Sam dies and Dean cries.  Fans will love it!!

Edited May 4, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[belbar]

24 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

This has been a trend since Dabb took over.  It's give the fans what they want so they will quit bitching scripts.  Basically Sam dies and Dean cries.  Fans will love it!!

Exactly this is my peeve. This is what it all has come to. IT's not their story anymore. They're there as an afterthought waiting in the background while the alledged secondary characters run all the action, and at the end they show up for "the magic emotional moment" and that's it. And as long as Dean cries and Sam is a hero for a hot minute all is good and dandy.  But hey, at least in twitter there are troops of teenagers screaming to Dabb and company every single week "Best episode ever!" So it must be good, and I'm wrong.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

One thing, I also noticed is that Dean want mute after Sam's death. 

Yes. This.  He didn't show signs of "life" until he saw Mary.  

30 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yeah, I think it was obvious to everyone what they were going for. Of course the show can only wish it had a fraction of the suspense and excitement of that movie sequence. Also, I don't think anyone should have to re-watch it in order to figure out what actually happened, since there was no reason for this to be ambiguous or obscured from the viewer. For example, whether or not Cas saw Sam's body should not be a matter of opinion, but I still could go either way.

Po-TAY-to, po-TAH-to, I was on the edge of my seat.  And apparently not everyone knows the Lord of the Rings (LOTR) movies....

29 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Truthfully, I had to google Mines of Moria to find out what it was, but then I questioned that maybe I heard it wrong and they had named it that because of the similarities. I’ll rewatch this weekend. 

Sorry BearCatFan... I'm usually good about naming my frequent pop-culture references.  Honestly, I'm a little surprised Bobo went LOTR-like.  I mean, it's PERFECT, but he's the least fantasy-geek of the writing group as far as I can tell. But I think they did it well.  Well enough that I didn't need a in-episode comment by Dean or someone else to see the similarities. 

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Why did Cas say there was no time?  What time frame were they working on?  Lucifer was replenishing the spell bowl with is grace wasn't that supposed to buy them more time in AU world?  Why were Cas and Gabe depowered, did I miss an exposition somewhere?  I need to rewatch, I think I missed something.

Because there were a TON of orc-like vamps closing in and they needed to get out of the tunnel before they were attacked again.  "Flee you fools" comes to mind (yet another gratuitous LOTR reference).  We have further proof of the number of vamps when Luci shows them just waiting to re-eat Sam. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

GPS to know they were in Kentucky? But neither he nor Gabriel can sense Lucifer afoot?

That's a really good point. In You Can't Handle the Truth, Cas told Dean that if Lucifer were out of the cage the angels would feel it.  So, he should have felt it when Lucifer popped through the rift.

[Myrelle]

17 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Non verbal communication is one of Jensen's greatest strengths.  Dean's body language really communicated that he didn't think things were going to go their way.   Dean has great instincts so I wonder if deep down he knows Mary isn't going to leave. 

As I said, I don't think that Dean is going to be shocked or surprised by anything bad that comes down the pipe  because I think he is again in that head space he was in when he said those four little words of "Not in my experience." to Cas after Cas had raised him from Hell and tried to assure him that Good things DO happen.

17 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I hope the trauma Dean went through here isn't ignored next week.  But I agree Dean's been fascinating to watch these last couple of weeks.  He's just done, and clearly at the end of his rope.  I think Jensen has been trying to convey this most of the season,  in spite of the writing.

One thing, I also noticed is that Dean want mute after Sam's death. 

Even though, Dean's line count in this episode seemed low, he still had the most to say.  Give Jensen an emmy already.

Ditto to all of this and yes, he was so shut off after Sam's death, but seeing Mary's face just broke him. I thought that was the best scene of the episode, and this, even though we've seen something similar from him numerous times before.

I'm not one of those who expects their favorite character to be the center of every episode, but I don't want him or his role or especially his characterization diminished by the writers either simply to prop another character.

I didn't hate how Dean was written in this episode, especially because he took point on the hunt because that's where he would be normally. I think that Sam wanting  and asking for that one kill was awkward, but I also thought that his "Can't you feel the lightening?..." comment was also strange. My theory on that is that they are setting up Sam for some big emotional falls. Same thing with his dream sequence-which I thought was kind of eye-roll inducing too because of the pizza shtick-but I think we got their rendition of all-loving and grateful Mother Mary there for that reason, too.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Myrelle

[Castiels Cat]

15 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

This was pretty meh. 

I mean, Dean was pretty much a background character here but while that would never endear an episode to me, in and of itself, you could still make it work. Even I don`t demand every single episode centered on my favourite. But I thought the episode as a whole felt rushed, contrived and messy. 

The scenes in the mines was really. really badly blocked and directed. The angels mosey on over to manually lift the rocks. Yeesh, earlier Gabriel had enough mojo to pull of a morphing that fooled Lucifer and whatever he did with the bar. So he couldn`t snap his fingers and make a few rocks go bye-bye? Right after, he already has enough juice to break powerful warding. So, plot-contrivant. 

Then everyone wanders off instead of staying in one tight fighting circle. Who are you, the super-dumb characters from a horror movie? 

Sam getting killed off just made me shake my head. I mean, why even? He was predictably back after two minutes. And apparently, the point of it all was just to facilitate him having to bring Lucifer to Jack. Which, I don`t blame Sam for but everything just felt terribly contrived and rushed. I hope it`s not a set-up for a redo in the Finale. Hopefully the writers continue their shtick of not talking to each other.

And Berens did some pimping of Sam here with the leadership, hero moments, planning and all that. Before he kinda crapped on the character once it was time for the Lucifer show again. 

Still no Michael anywhere in sight, either variety. 

The talk between Cas and Gabriel was actually interesting.

And I did chuckle at the impotency comedy bit at the beginning. Yes, it was juvenile but I was kinda amused. Gabriel and Rowena banging? Why not. 

Though why didn`t Rowena spell Lucifer`s mouth shut? That has to be relatively easy. She knew he was baiting her so do something about it. Again, contrive to get Lucifer in AU-land where he arrives in the nick of time to resurrect Sam.  

Episode could have been much, much worse. Could have been Red Meat 2 or even worse so on that front, I`m relieved. 

The opening dream scene was eye-rolly to me. And it had a hilariously bad moment where Mary thanked Sam for saving her and then, after a really noticeable pause went like "oh, and Dean". That read like "that other guy, can`t remember his name right now". Either the script had that weird overly long pause or that was some sucky line delivery and the director approved it. 

Still, we got the Berens ep out of the way. Thank god.

Well... that dream sequence shows us that despite his seasons 8-11 tragic fall + asuccessful redemption arc Sam still suffers,from the HUBRIS and he still needs to be the ONE.  The fact that they put it in Sam's dream is telling.  It makes it a character  flaw not Sam pimping... just like Death flattering Sam in his head when he supposedly personally came to reap him despite not having any relationship with him whatsoever.

And look how Sam in charge turned out. Total clusterFCK. Someone innocent dued because they trusted him. He died and needed Lucifer to bail him out. AND someone else  will pay the price for that too.

I maintain that Dean ain't acting like Dean because he is depressed, etc.  He was off with Ketch and he is worse now.  He is not moving, stalking, making decisions, hunting like the guy we know.  He is going through the motions and losing steps, miscalculated, not thinking clearly .  That is why he got shot.  That's why he was not his usual self in his episode. He is off.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

As I said, I don't think that Dean is going to be shocked or surprised by anything bad that comes down the pipe  because I think he is again in that head space he was in when he said those three little words of "Not in my experience." to Cas after Cas had raised him from Hell and tried to assure him that Good things DO happen.

Ditto to all of this and yes, he was so shut off after Sam's death, but seeing Mary's face just broke him. I thought that was the best scene of the episode, and this, even though we've seen something similar from him numerous times before.

I'm not one of those who expects their favorite character to be the center of every episode, but I don't want him or his role or especially his characterization diminished by the writers either simply to prop another character.

I didn't hate how Dean was written in this episode, especially because he took point on the hunt because that's where he would be normally. I think that Sam wanting  and asking for that one kill was awkward, but I also thought that his "Can't you feel the lightening?..." comment was also strange. My theory on that is that they are setting up Sam for some big emotional falls. Same thing with his dream sequence-which I thought was kind of eye-roll inducing too because of the pizza shtick-but I think we got their rendition of all-loving and grateful Mother Mary there for that reason, too.

They have set Sam up for his fail.  The dream sequence reintroduced his hubris as does his insistence that they can handle the tunnel.  His hubris gets the man killed.  His hubris in the dream... Dean is a big pizza eating buffoon and he is the big hero that saves Mom.  Kind of a repeat of the  thinking that lead him into Ruby's trap when she cooed that Dean was too weak and only Sam was strong enough to stop Lucifer.

So now Sam's hubris has cost a human his life because he trusted him,  and they are again in bed with Lucifer.  Someone will pay dearly for that down the road.  

20 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That's a really good point. In You Can't Handle the Truth, Cas told Dean that if Lucifer were out of the cage the angels would feel it.  So, he should have felt it when Lucifer popped through the rift.

Maybe it's because Luci is not at full grace... or lol canon.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have no idea what time frame they were working on. They didn't have the 24 hour thing since they trussed up Lucifer. There is no sense of time at all in these episodes anymore. Cas and Gabe's powers are all a function of Plotonium.  It's like someone decides they have to get the characters all in place for PLOT PLOT PLOT. Cas apparently has GPS to know they were in Kentucky? But neither he nor Gabriel can sense Lucifer afoot?

I really thought there would be a reveal that Cas saw a dead Sam and an alive Lucifer who would have told Cas that he would resurrect Sam.  And that's why Cas was keeping Dean from Sam. Yet, it seems that Cas was just as shocked as everyone else to see an alive Sam and then Lucifer.

 

Too many logic holes on this one.  And throwing a bone of "Dean emotion" at me doesn't make it any better. 

My guess would be they were in an enclosed space with a mess of hungry vamps and more were coming. But then that is just logical.

3 hours ago, lovebug871 said:

I have been getting the same for the Charlotte area convention for about a month.

Ditto indy.

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean and Cas both saw Sam attacked and saw the blood.  Then he was dragged into the nest. Cas didn't think he was necessarily dead because he chased after him shouting his name and Dean was steps behind shouting Sammy! Then Cas comes back out  moments later and and says he was gone. So if Cas thought he was alive why shouldn't Dean?

Look I am not angry with Cas. I just think that was no point in having Cas stop Dean other than to accommodate the shocking! Reveal for Sam to walk back into the camp and have everyone stand around in awe at Sam's resurrection and then possible betraying them all with the Lucufer reveal.

Cas could heal him if he had gotten to him prior to death which is why he ran after him immediately. He did not get to him in time.  

)_(

2 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

All I could think at the end was how guilty Dean is going to feel that it was Lucifer to find and save his brother. That is going to absolutely kill him. 

Not really... Dean will feel guilty about not being able to protect Sam.  Lucifer can resurrect. It iis a different thing.  Dean Won't like the reminder of Sam, Lucifer and the Apocalypse considering he is already having PTSD depression issues about that.  And I am sure he would like to kill Lucifer dead.

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the episode was schizophrenic that way. 

The first half Berens makes sure that Sam has the plan for Lucifer, he gets the most kills, he makes the hero speech, he kind of calls the shots in AU-world. It was the propping part. 

Then he suddenly dies and it is basically a set-up for Lucifer to come on over and bring him back. And this is where it shifts all to Lucifer. Sam is forced to be indebted to him and work w ith him and "shamefully" bring him back to camp. This is the "fuck you, Sam, Lucifer is where it`s at" part. 

The writers must be super in love with the character. Dabb and Singer said as much during the producer`s preview for this episode. 

Honestly, I thought the side characters did get the best part here. Gabriel/Rowena, Gabriel/Lucifer, Lucifer/Rowena, Gabriel/Castiel. I thought they got the best scenes. Sam`s part was schizophrenic and Dean`s part was, while not offensive, very muted. 

This is how I saw the episode, too.

And ITA that these writers are in simply love with Lucifer/Pellegrino. Go figure.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The difference is that Dean saw Sam's body in 11.17. He touched him and was convinced with his own eyes that Sam was dead and then he left to save the lying werewolves.

  I think upon my rewatch the way the scene played was more effective because I could focus on the interaction between Dean and Cas and I get why Dean believed Cas because of the acting.  Writing wise I still think it's a little side eyey to have Cas even try to stop Dean but the acting sold it more upon my rewatch.

Maybe Dean had PTSD from the last time he had an angel fix a dead/dying Sam. Imagine Sam's reaction if Dean had made a deal with Lucifer to bring him back. Just imagine.

I'm only partly kidding.

[ahrtee]

36 minutes ago, SueB said:

Because there were a TON of orc-like vamps closing in and they needed to get out of the tunnel before they were attacked again.  "Flee you fools" comes to mind (yet another gratuitous LOTR reference).  We have further proof of the number of vamps when Luci shows them just waiting to re-eat Sam. 

I also didn't know Mines of Moria (it's been a long time since I read LOTR or saw the movies all the way through and my memory isn't what it used to be...)

But did I miss something here?  I know they said the vamps had changed because of starvation, but did they say they were now eating people instead of just drinking blood?  And either way (as someone upthread noted) why let all Sam's spurting blood go to waste while they dragged him away?  

 

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean and Cas both saw Sam attacked and saw the blood.  Then he was dragged into the nest. Cas didn't think he was necessarily dead because he chased after him shouting his name and Dean was steps behind shouting Sammy! Then Cas comes back out  moments later and and says he was gone. So if Cas thought he was alive why shouldn't Dean?

When I saw the blood spurting, my first thought was "Cas can fix that, no problem."  Then he didn't.

TBH, when Cas was insisting that Dean leave *right then* I had a fleeting thought that that wasn't Cas--that maybe whoever (was it you, Catrox?) had posited a while ago that he had been replaced by the guy from The Empty was right.  After all, *our* Cas would know that Dean wouldn't leave Sam, at least without verifying that he was dead and without a very pressing need (like saving civilians, as in Red Meat).  And since they were down to 1 civilian with two angels watching, he should have felt that he could leave for a few seconds at least.

But mostly, I must have missed the whole angel-power issue.  Did Gabriel have any power?  Did Cas?  Because under normal circumstances, either one could have (a) blasted the stone blocking the path with a touch; (b) blasted the vamps away altogether (as in "calling in a smite"); (c) Gabriel, at least, still had his wings, since he wasn't affected by the Fall, so he could have just zapped them to Mary's hideout once they knew where it was; and/or (d) healed/resurrected Sam.  

Cas was affected by the warding so badly he could barely stand, but Gabe didn't seem bothered by it at all.  Was that because he wasn't powered and so it didn't affect him?  Except he was the one who zapped the warding away so Cas got better. So they both had power.  Why not use it?

Plotonium, indeed.  

Having said that, I enjoyed the ep (much more than last week's, anyway!)  Frankly, I was more worried they were going to pull another "Red Meat" style save, and was very grateful they didn't.  

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I think you can always tell when this was one of the main items on the writers' checklist for an episode; often they try so hard that it comes across as contrived and artificial. One example from this episode was when they first come across one the vampires feeding in the tunnel; Dean is literally standing there over the vampire, when you hear Sam eagerly go "Wait, wait, wait, I got it!" and he comes scampering up from the rear of the group, rushing past everyone to get the kill. It was just silly.

That was so strange, and IA that it's about seemingly checking off items on a to-do list. I think this and the overly contrived writing has been more apparent under Dabb than it has been under any showrunner before him.

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But mostly, I must have missed the whole angel-power issue. 

I think I missed this also. Or it wasn't there. Anyone know?...

[ZennyKenny]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

Brief double-check on the tactics/sequence in the Mines of Moria: 

Thank you. Although I don't know what the "mines of moria" are,  I appreciate you writing out a play-by-play of the scene. Them not chasing after Sam makes much more sense now. 

6 hours ago, KirkB said:

I think the gang got what they deserved concerning Lucifer. They took Cas and Gabriel, the only two beings who could realistically do ANYTHING to even slow Lucifer down if he got loose with them through the rift, leaving Luci behind with only a meager binding spell and poor Rowena to stop him. The fact she even survived was because Luci wasn't trying very hard to kill her and she got incredibly lucky.

I get what they were going for in the tunnel, but I don't think killing Sam just to bring him right back was really the right move. No one watching would have thought Sam was going to actually stay dead. He was obviously either going to become a vamp himself for a while or else Luci would save him. I think they wanted to separate Sam from the others so they could put a damper on the reunion with Mary and Jack. It probably would have been better to simply have them separated by the swarm of vamps and Sam tells the other to go, to get to mom and Jack and he'll try to find a way out and join them. Cas and Gabriel have to drag Dean away. Sam knows he's screwed but tries to go down fighting, only to have the tunnel fill up with sunlight that fries all the vamps at once and when it fades Lucifer is standing there with a grin on his face and a little "Hey Sammy" and Sam knows he is now even more screwed.

I love your version so much better!

[sarthaz]

What. Was. That.

Were we supposed to laugh at all the juvenile humor at the beginning? Was it supposed to make sense that Sam was suddenly Gung-ho Leader-man again for a hot minute? I totally thought this entire episode was going to be revealed as a dream, because it was so tonally inconsistent and ridiculous.  Not until Lucifer resurrected Sam did I realize, "Oh shit -- this is the actual episode. Are they serious with this?" Ugh ...

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Were we supposed to laugh at all the juvenile humor at the beginning?

I don't know if they're trying to appeal more to the CW demographic of teenagers, but no, just no.  We don't need sex jokes and faux homesexual encounters.  What's next?  Fart jokes and enforced vomiting ever scene?

[SueB]

Now... LOTR had a $93M budget...

Mines of Moria scenes....

Edited May 4, 2018 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

I was glad they didn't drag out Sam's death until the next episode.  They have too much to wrap up and wasting more time on forced angst isn't going to help.

[SueB]

So the press release for this episode had:

Quote

SUPERNATURAL
“Beat the Devil” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

THE LONG JOURNEY HOME – Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles), Castiel (Misha Collins) and Gabriel (guest star Richard Speight, Jr.) must work together if they have any hope of bringing Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and Jack (Alexander Calvert) home. Meanwhile, Rowena’s (guest star Ruth Connell) encounter with Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) may alter the outcome of the journey for one of our heroes. Phil Sgriccia directed the episode written by Robert Berens (#1321). Original airdate 5/3/2018.

I'm guessing it's the fact that Lucifer made it to the AU and saved Sam.  In this case, not foreboding but good outcome. 
 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Why did Cas say there was no time?  What time frame were they working on?  Lucifer was replenishing the spell bowl with is grace wasn't that supposed to buy them more time in AU world?  Why were Cas and Gabe depowered, did I miss an exposition somewhere?  I need to rewatch, I think I missed something.

Surely even Lucifer grace, which had only recently been replenished, would run out eventually through an open wound, wouldn't it? That whole thing was so bizarre. Are we supposed to think he was regenerating it as he bled? Otherwise, their time in the AU was limited. Honestly, they change the rules so fast in Dabb's Supernatural, I can't keep up. 

And poor Dean can't win. He's either too selfish/codependent to let Sam go, or too uncaring because he didn't. Their best friend/brother told him Sam was dead, and all their lives were still in danger. They couldn't know what else was in that tunnel with them. And they are on the clock. He did the right thing and also the hardest thing for him to do.

Or, maybe he knew Sam couldn't stay dead since he's 'the one' to kill Rowena. Hey.

[belbar]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm guessing it's the fact that Lucifer made it to the AU and saved Sam.  In this case, not foreboding but good outcome. 
 

Or that thanks to the fact that Lucifer crossed to the AU he could finally meet his son. I think they're considering Jack one of the heroes.

Edited May 4, 2018 by belbar

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Surely even Lucifer grace, which had only recently been replenished, would run out eventually through an open wound, wouldn't it? That whole thing was so bizarre. Are we supposed to think he was regenerating it as he bled? Otherwise, their time in the AU was limited. Honestly, they change the rules so fast in Dabb's Supernatural, I can't keep up. 

I would think they would have 24 hours after it ran out.  I'm going to assume (on what evidence I have no idea since they all seem to be complete doofuses lately) that they had done some research to have some sort of time table as to when it would run out.  But, considering every time we've seen an angel completely drained of grace it happens in a second, I'm not sure why it was dripping as long as it did.  

 

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And poor Dean can't win. He's either too selfish/codependent to let Sam go, or too uncaring because he didn't. Their best friend/brother told him Sam was dead, and all their lives were still in danger. They couldn't know what else was in that tunnel with them. And they are on the clock. He did the right thing and also the hardest thing for him to do.

TBH, I think he did the right thing.  I just find it OOC for him.  That's all.  I mean even in Red Meat he took more coaxing and he was looking right at the dead body.  But, it's really not that big of a deal to me, because like I said, right thing to do.  Hey, maybe it's character development.

[sarthaz]

52 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't know if they're trying to appeal more to the CW demographic of teenagers, but no, just no.  We don't need sex jokes and faux homesexual encounters.  What's next?  Fart jokes and enforced vomiting ever scene?

I thought the masturbation and impotence stuff was a new low for our beloved series until Gabriel fell into another man's crotch, because that's just hi-larious.

[sarthaz]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

I thought the masturbation and impotence stuff was a new low for our beloved series until Gabriel fell into another man's crotch, because that's just hi-larious.

I guess it makes sense. Berens looks like that one middle school kid who started growing facial hair early. He's probably 12, and this is what his friends think is funny.

[Icarus]

I quite enjoyed this episode, I think maybe I should try and stay away from a lot of the comments before I watch as it does colour how I view it.

I have been trying to work out why I don't feel quite the same sort of “outrage” that so many people do as I would class myself as a “rabid” fan. I watch episodes of Supernatural probably at least 3 – 4 nights of the week and I read fanfiction every day. This has been going on for over 9 years, I think I probably started online with the Supernatural TV forums, then WFB, WB, IMBD and lurked in several more so I really really am a huge fan. I am not sure why I don't get so “hot under the collar” as I used to – although I am more of a bi bro fan now than I ever used to be, I still lean far more towards Dean which is why I hang around here, I feel uncomfortable with the very Sam heavy sites. This one rather gets a little bit too much weighted the other way for me sometimes but I do enjoy a lot of the speculation and interpretations people come up with here.

So on this episode I thought the Sam – wait I've got this Vampire kill - was ridiculous and the Dean not going after Sam whatever Cas said as totally OOC but they only slightly pulled me out of the episode. I don't get the beginning sequence, that is not how you dream so not sure if that is a foretelling of something or not. As I loath the Mary story line, and although I think Mark P is a good actor, like many others I am so over the Lucifer story line but think I will have to try and live with it! Anyway it was not as bad as I expected and I am keeping my fingers crossed we get some really good story telling in the last few episodes (though not actually expecting much!)

[SueB]

8 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I guess it makes sense. Berens looks like that one middle school kid who started growing facial hair early. He's probably 12, and this is what his friends think is funny.

I'll bet a Diet Coke that this was a director or cast gag added in.  Berens owned up to the innuendo regarding archangel grace "performance" but said the cast & crew made the most of it.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

They have set Sam up for his fail. 

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The first half Berens makes sure that Sam has the plan for Lucifer, he gets the most kills, he makes the hero speech, he kind of calls the shots in AU-world. It was the propping part. 

Then he suddenly dies and it is basically a set-up for Lucifer to come on over and bring him back. And this is where it shifts all to Lucifer. Sam is forced to be indebted to him and work w ith him and "shamefully" bring him back to camp. This is the "fuck you, Sam, Lucifer is where it`s at" part. 

My responses taken to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread, because they are bitter, and I am annoyed.

[sarthaz]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

My responses taken to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread, because they are bitter, and I am annoyed.

The way they wrote Sam in this episode was fucking stupid. Carry on.

[FlickChick]

31 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

The way they wrote Sam in this episode was fucking stupid. Carry on.

The way they wrote EVERYONE in this episode was fucking stupid. I am officially embarrassed to admit to anyone that I watch this show in its current stupidity. All I can do is pray that at the Up-Fronts, they announce a last shortened season to wind up our boys' story.

[gonzosgirrl]

45 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'll bet a Diet Coke that this was a director or cast gag added in.  Berens owned up to the innuendo regarding archangel grace "performance" but said the cast & crew made the most of it.

I saw a tweet that said Ruth and Rich ad-libbed the 'thoughts' part at Scgrigia's (sp?) suggestion, so it seems likely that wasn't the only improv. 

I know I'm butchering the spelling of his name. Sorry.

7 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

The way they wrote EVERYONE in this episode was fucking stupid. I am officially embarrassed to admit to anyone that I watch this show in its current stupidity. All I can do is pray that at the Up-Fronts, they announce a last shortened season to wind up our boys' story.

I'd much rather they announce Dabb being replaced. Alas I don't think either of us are getting our wishes. My biggest (show) sorrow is knowing it will probably end under Dabb's control. :(

[Casseiopeia]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I saw a tweet that said Ruth and Rich ad-libbed the 'thoughts' part at Scgrigia's (sp?) suggestion, so it seems likely that wasn't the only improv. 

I know I'm butchering the spelling of his name. Sorry.

I'd much rather they announce Dabb being replaced. Alas I don't think either of us are getting our wishes. My biggest (show) sorrow is knowing it will probably end under Dabb's control. :(

If WS is picked up it may even be worse than Dabb.  It might be Buck/Lemming's show to run with Dabb taking over the Singer role and produce both shows.  They are the head writers already.  That would my nightmare come true.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

My guess would be they were in an enclosed space with a mess of hungry vamps and more were

To what are you replying?

27 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

The way they wrote EVERYONE in this episode was fucking stupid. I am officially embarrassed to admit to anyone that I watch this show in its current stupidity. All I can do is pray that at the Up-Fronts, they announce a last shortened season to wind up our boys' story.

 

2 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I thought the masturbation and impotence stuff was a new low for our beloved series until Gabriel fell into another man's crotch, because that's just hi-larious.

His brother's crotch no less

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I was glad they didn't drag out Sam's death until the next episode.  They have too much to wrap up and wasting more time on forced angst isn't going to help.

I'm fully expecting Lucifer to dangle Sam's life as a carrot for longer than this episode. He resurrected him. He can take it back. So I don't think this is the end if it

[Katy M]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I'm fully expecting Lucifer to dangle Sam's life as a carrot for longer than this episode. He resurrected him. He can take it back. So I don't think this is the end if it

He could easily kill him even if he hadn't resurrected him first.  Unless it turns out he did something funky to him, the whole thing seems kind of pointless.  I'll take that back, totally pointless.  Sure, Sam will honor his end of the bargain and say that Lucifer brought him back.  But, when he adds that he did it just to ingratiate himself with Jack, what good does that do in the end?  And, even if he feels like honoring his bargain means not adding that, I still can't see Jack falling all over himself for Lucifer after all the bad he's heard about him his "whole life."

[MysteryGuest]

I haven't watched the episode again yet, but the only real issue I had was Lucifer's grace.  We see AU Michael take one little swipe at Lucifer's neck and fill a small vial with his grace, and Lucifer is practically rendered human.  He escapes and walks the streets of our world, completely without power.  He kills random angels as he finds them to steal their grace, and then makes the deal with Sister Jo.  In this episode, he was gushing grace out of his neck, and never seemed to lose a step?  That was completely unbelievable to me, and it just adds to my ever present annoyance with all things Lucifer.  

As for the rest of the episode, I rather enjoyed it.  It was nice to see Gabriel gain some humility, and Cas has been very forceful this season.  I love it!  

[AwesomO4000]

37 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

In this episode, he was gushing grace out of his neck, and never seemed to lose a step?  That was completely unbelievable to me, and it just adds to my ever present annoyance with all things Lucifer.  

Well, Lucifer did say that he found and ate*** some of Michael's angels on the way... though how he supposedly had time to do that is another thing all together.

*** ...And yes, "ate" was the actual word that he used to describe it... not that that surprises me any.

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Well, Lucifer did say that he found and ate*** some of Michael's angels on the way... though how he supposedly had time to do that is another thing all together.

*** ...And yes, "ate" was the actual word that he used to describe it... not that that surprises me any.

He had plenty of time.  He could fly.  Sam and DEan said it was a two day (?) walk.  

[bearcatfan]

Rewatched. When they come across the first vamp in the tunnel, it appears that Dean only has a shotgun and no knife so maybe Sam said he’d do it to lessen the noise of the kill. Sure, Dean could have blown his head off, but that would have told every vamp that they were there. 

During the attack, I believe they moved down away from where Cas and Gabe were moving the rocks. That’s likely why it took the angels a few seconds to get there. 

Definately said Morehead, which is at least 100 miles from Dayton. They must not have stopped at all. 

[MysteryGuest]

46 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Well, Lucifer did say that he found and ate*** some of Michael's angels on the way... though how he supposedly had time to do that is another thing all together.

*** ...And yes, "ate" was the actual word that he used to describe it... not that that surprises me any.

Right, but I meant before that, when he was in the bunker.  Yes, I know that anger ramps up his power a bit, but he had lost far more grace than he had the last time, so he should have been even weaker.  Oh well, plotonium strikes again.

I just finished a re-watch, and there would have been absolutely no reason for Sam to ever choose death by Vampire over going back with Lucifer.  It would have been one thing if Lucifer needed Sam alive as a vessel, or something along those lines.  Then Sam's choosing death would have been heroic, and would have stopped Lucifer.  But that clearly wasn't the case here.  Lucifer was going, with or without Sam, so Sam's smartest choice was to go with him.  I'm hoping that becomes abundantly clear next episode, because Sam has no reason whatsoever to feel any guilt about Lucifer being there.  The way everyone looked at him like he'd done some horrible thing annoyed me.  I know it was all for dramatic effect, but I want it straightened out right away.  

I wonder if Mary and the others were prepared to let Dean go back for Sam by himself?  I'd like to think not, but no one seemed to be making any moves to go with him.  

I thought Ruth did an especially good job this week.  Her facial expressions when Lucifer was taunting her about how he killed her were very effective.  I like her character more and more.  

[AwesomO4000]

23 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

ight, but I meant before that, when he was in the bunker.  Yes, I know that anger ramps up his power a bit, but he had lost far more grace than he had the last time, so he should have been even weaker.  Oh well, plotonium strikes again.

Ah, in that case. yeah, you're right it makes little sense except plotonium.

24 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

The way everyone looked at him like he'd done some horrible thing annoyed me. I know it was all for dramatic effect, but I want it straightened out right away.  

We can only hope, but I'm not gonna bet on it. *Sigh*

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

He had plenty of time.  He could fly.  Sam and DEan said it was a two day (?) walk.  

Oh, okay I missed that detail. That makes more sense now. Thank you.

[devlin]

Are people seriously worried that dean is going to be annoyed with sam that he allowed luci to follow him to the camp after he brought sam back to life.

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, devlin said:

Are people seriously worried that dean is going to be annoyed with sam that he allowed luci to follow him to the camp after he brought sam back to life.

Not worried, just sort of annoyed at how they played that end scene.  I just wish they'd give the audience more credit than they do.  We all know that no one there is going to be happy to see Lucifer.  But the expression on Dean's face looked more "what the hell did you do", rather than "oh shit, how did he get here".  And Sam's expression was full of guilt which he has no reason to feel.  I think I'm just ready for both Sam and Dean to snap out of their funk.  It's basically lasted all season for both of them, with a few upbeat moments along the way.