S06.E07: Harvest

[White Sheep]

56 minutes ago, millennium said:

Despite all his terrible deeds, failing as Henry's father feels like the greatest of Philip's crimes.   When he had to break the news that he could no longer afford the tuition ... that was harder to watch than him hacking off Marilyn's hands and head.    Now his marriage is toast, he's alienated from his daughter, his business is going belly-up and his son regards him as Willy Loman.   Philip always yearned for the American dream, but in the end all he's reaped is every man's nightmare.  

Paige.  What a fucking idiot.

Oh, Elizabeth.  I hope you get everything you so richly deserve.

He was telling Satn by as a friend. He was also telling Stan BOTH of his business was failing.   Everyone on this show needs more friends. 

 

Is it standard operating procedure to hack off a dead agent hands or heads or was that Phillip idea?   E looked ready to move out until Phillip went for the fire ax. 

[Clanstarling]

28 minutes ago, Darrenbrett said:

After an earlier episode I wrote this:

Okay, in this episode we got pretty much exactly that: Lightbulbs finally going off for Stan based on his interaction with the Jennings, combined with his knowledge of the history of the "illegals" investigation.

Although, I have to say, him noticing them coming home at 3 in the morning fairly regularly was a red flag just a little too far. That seems decidedly atypical behavior, especially for travel agents. It's hard to keep that air of believability with that plot point. I mean, if P & E are going to choose to continue to live next door to an agent in counter-intelligence (already a very iffy endeavor), the least -- and I mean THE VERY LEAST - you'd expect is that they'd do everything possible to NOT stand out. Coming home at 3am frequently definitely isn't that.

How many times would Stan be up at 3 am to see them coming and going at 3 am? Even if he woke to the sound of cars, he wouldn't know which neighbor it was unless he looked, and he'd have to jump up and go to the window to see. I'm willing to give him a break on that one - I doubt he's seen it often.

9 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

Well said Starling.

You have just given me the courage to tell you something that I've been wanting to say to you for a few years now.

I keep getting you mixed up with "SisterMagpie" because the picture icons you both use are kind of similar and you are both named after birds. I've always wondered if you are really both the same person because I have never been able to keep the two of you straight and I've always wanted to tell you that. It's not a problem for me. It just gets me to felling like a dope.

Not the same person, though if you're going to mix me up with anyone, I'll take that one as a compliment.  @sistermagpie writes beautiful, thoughtful posts. Since I rarely get to the forum before there are already 6 pages of posts, I tend to respond more to posts that have already been written, and write shorter and (sometimes) snarkier bits. :)

[Anela]

1 hour ago, SoMuchTV said:

Ouch.  I read this board a lot but don't post much. Maybe because I'm afraid I missed something that's obvious to "everyone" else.

I've noticed more snippiness recently, all over the place. That's why I ended up being slightly snarky, too, yesterday. :) Been on the receiving end of it for a few days now. It's okay, though. It isn't that way all the time. I got jumped on in a Gilmore Girls group on FB, the other night. The response had me thinking, "It's just a TV show!" as well as what I actually wrote in response. 

[dubbel zout]

39 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

How many times would Stan be up at 3 am to see them coming and going at 3 am? Even if he woke to the sound of cars, he wouldn't know which neighbor it was unless he looked, and he'd have to jump up and go to the window to see. I'm willing to give him a break on that one - I doubt he's seen it often.

Plus, if he sees it often enough, it becomes routine. P and/or E could say they were working late at the office on invoices or a large group trip or something like that.

[skippylou]

Does anyone have a clue as to why this radiation sensor is of such importance in this soviet power struggle?  Could it possible impact the signing of the INF treaty at the upcoming summit?  Why Claudia seems to be cut out of the loop?   Do they think she might side with Arkady?   Which side is in control of Elizabeth's other mission with the diplomat?

If Elizabeth gets sent to France it would mean that the resources of this anti-reform "deep state" group are really thin.

I suppose this will all be tied together eventually but I am flummoxed.

Edited May 12, 2018 by skippylou

[MissInga]

I noticed the blemish/bruise on Elizabeth's cheek too. Is a skin lesion, does she have AIDS? Oh dear. What was that with Marilyn about rubbing Patchouli oil  on Erika's feet?

[Darrenbrett]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

How many times would Stan be up at 3 am to see them coming and going at 3 am? Even if he woke to the sound of cars, he wouldn't know which neighbor it was unless he looked, and he'd have to jump up and go to the window to see. I'm willing to give him a break on that one - I doubt he's seen it often.

Not the same person, though if you're going to mix me up with anyone, I'll take that one as a compliment.  @sistermagpie writes beautiful, thoughtful posts. Since I rarely get to the forum before there are already 6 pages of posts, I tend to respond more to posts that have already been written, and write shorter and (sometimes) snarkier bits. :)

I think you misunderstood what I wrote, which had nothing to do with how observant Stan is or isn't. I'm saying the writing lacks some credibility there. If you're a Russian agent, living next door to an FBI agent in counter espionage, you do your VERY BEST to blend in. Regardless of whether Stan was often awake at 3am, they (Philip and Elizabeth) would -- realistically - do their best to not return home at those hours. Far too suspicious. I mean, it can happen once in a blue moon and you can say you had something crazy happen. But when it becomes too regular it would raise red flags. I just don't see Russian agents bringing that kind of unnecessary attention upon themselves -- especially considering what their neighbor does for a living.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Darrenbrett

[Pink-n-Green]

17 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

 

The song was "Broken Flag" by The Patti Smith Group.

Unfortunately, we cannot disagree more about the quality of that song. I hated it and felt it kind of ruined that scene for me.

 

 

Yeah, after I asked about the song in my post, I read what others thought and I think I'm the only person who liked it!  You have to admit, though, that most of the time The Americans does a great job incorporating music into a scene.

 

15 hours ago, Dev F said:

Marilyn has been one of P&E's main agents for surveillance and the like since the end of season 4, when Gabriel introduced her to them to help with their meet-ups with William. Her special talent is supposed to be that she's immediately forgettable; Gabriel recommends her by noting, "You wouldn't even notice her if she sat on your lap." So it's sadly fitting that she ends up as a literally unidentifiable corpse.

Oh man, I remember that scene, but I don't remember it being Marilyn!  But I guess that's a "good" thing since I apparently wasn't supposed to!

That scene in the garage; I had to watch it three times:  the first time with the volume muted and through my fingers, the second time I was able to watch without my hands in front of my face and the third time I added the volume.  I was afraid it would assault my ears a la Annaliese and the suitcase but it wasn't that bad.

Personally, I thought Elizabeth looked kind of turned on when Phillip was chopping up poor Marilyn.  Maybe the length he was willing to go for "The Cause" got to her.  Or something.

[jjj]

Didn't Stan say something about the midnight and beyond hours to Henry in the car convo?  I have a recollection that this was a signal to us that he has noticed more than we had realized.  Will check the recording when I can. 

[Pink-n-Green]

5 hours ago, anonymiss said:

It's harder to make friends in adulthood but very natural in childhood, yet what is incredulous to me is she's never shown to have had any ever. Any socialization has been for work like church volunteering. 

And even THAT didn't get her any friends.  Remember that she was told about Pastor Groovyhair's church by another teenaged girl when she was on the bus going to visit Aunt Whatever Her Name Was.  But that girl was never seen again.

[MisterBluxom]

11 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Yeah, after I asked about the song in my post, I read what others thought and I think I'm the only person who liked it!  You have to admit, though, that most of the time The Americans does a great job incorporating music into a scene.

 

 

You are certainly right about that. I still remember some of the music from the very first episode. It was fantastic. I wonder what happened with this song. I wonder if maybe they played this song because it really does sound like some kind of funeral music.

[skippylou]

Random thoughts for this evening:

Ya, ya, she's willing to commit to the cause for like.  Where've I heard that before?  Of yeah, Jesus.  She's just like Monica Lewinsky, a 12 year old trapped in a 20 year old body.  The center was off their rocker with this 2nd generation illegal program.  This will end as badly as Jared in some way or another.  

********************************************************

I actually cringe more at the sight and sound of The Artist than the decapitation scene.  

********************************************************

I can't see this series ending well for Phillip, Elizabeth, Paige or Stan.   Oleg and Henry maybe.  

*******************************************************

Ha, I just watched a 2 minute "comical" clip on the FX website: "Season 6: Leaked Spoilers".   One of the joke lines by Matthew Rhys was that Paige changes her name to Monica Lewinsky.

********************************************************

g'night all.

[skippylou]

7 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

You are certainly right about that. I still remember some of the music from the very first episode. It was fantastic. I wonder what happened with this song. I wonder if maybe they played this song because it really does sound like some kind of funeral music.

Season 1 Episode 1.  Tusk and 'In the air tonight' were perfect.  Ditto for 'Games without frontiers' ending that season.

[anonymiss]

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Well you shouldn’t be. The use of the word “otherness” in a multicultural, multiracial 21st century world is tone deaf.

I used the term Other as part of our explication of this series. An acknowledgement of discrimination is not an endorsement. The term is used in scholarly discussion past, present, and will continue to be in the future for the same reason I used it.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, jjj said:

They really did sometimes just leave both children (Paige as early teenager, so mildly responsible) alone at night in the earlier seasons, right?  I was not on boards in those seasons, but remember having some concerns about that when I watched the first three seasons all at once. 

They had babysitters until Paige was old enough to babysit. In the earliest seasons they still had babysitters. In the early 80s, also, it was much more normal to leave kids that age alone. My parents would easily have gone out and left me alone at Paige's age then, or happily have left my older sister to watch me at that age.

5 hours ago, jjj said:

I think this is the first time we have heard Henry express an awareness that Elizabeth does not pay much attention to him (over time, not just on this holiday).  It is not completely out of the blue, but more articulated than it has ever been. 

Last week he said Elizabeth never called him so that would imply it's been a while since she paid attention to him. I don't think he was saying here that he felt that way his whole life. Though obviously she's never been at his beck and call ever. His relationship with her now is bound to color the way he sees her in the past so he can see the continuity that's always been there.

5 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

That's why I find it amusing when the showrunners are given credit for "trusting" the audience to intuit things without having to show them; the show has literally been bogged down by dragging out the minutiae of showing almost everything. (Think back to Oleg deciphering Philip's note a week ago - we really didn't need to watch the step-by-step of that, but for some reason, that's where the showrunners repeatedly decide to invest time, utilitarian-ness be damned.) Now they have a handful of episodes left and it's like, "Huh, guess we shoulda started laying the breadcrumbs of Stan piecing it together at warp speed." 

 

And still not important to give us Philip's life story!!! 

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

 So I just said "I don't know why, but if he's hired, my kids are never going to be alone with him." They offered him the job, but something came up in the background check. That's when I learned to trust my gut.

Is that going on with Stan? I honestly wonder because although Stan's suspicions here still feel to me like they're happening because it's the end of the show and not for organic reasons, I do tend to agree with Umbelina that the hug really sent Stan's sense's tingling. That part made sense to me as a big tell that made Stan zero in on it. But I wonder if Stan is realizing that something has always felt "off" about Philip or Philip and Elizabeth. Or if it's just more practical things and the feeling he got from how Philip is acting now. Like is it just that he's connecting him leaving on Thanksgiving with coming home late and starting to ask about standard Illegals stuff (like if they have family) or is he also thinking that he's always felt something was off about Philip. He said that in the pilot, but later said he thought Philip was a good guy.

4 hours ago, AllyB said:

I haven't read back through the entire thread so I don't know if this has come up. But have we seen P&E in a disguise that shows them to be a completely different age before? I can't really remember it if they have. So I have the feeling that in some way, the disguises that they wore on the plane home from Chicago were the writers way of showing a glimpse of a future that will never be. Philip and Elizabeth are never going to be that retired couple, so for just a few minutes we got to see what those golden years could have looked like. 

Philip dressed as an old man to visit Gene's grave. But I agree that was what the writers were thinking. This was them as they'd never be.

It also makes me wonder where they get them. Was there another costume place in Chicago? Because Philip just said she should sit tight, then arrived having chosen a wig and goatee and outfit from somewhere. Then to come back they have matching outfits.

2 hours ago, White Sheep said:

Is it standard operating procedure to hack off a dead agent hands or heads or was that Phillip idea?   E looked ready to move out until Phillip went for the fire ax. 

He got the idea when he saw the axe because it made things so much easier. They had to get rid of Marilyn's body and ideally would want to make her hard to identify. This way they could just take the problem areas with them and leave the rest of the body.

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Not the same person, though if you're going to mix me up with anyone, I'll take that one as a compliment.  @sistermagpie writes beautiful, thoughtful posts. Since I rarely get to the forum before there are already 6 pages of posts, I tend to respond more to posts that have already been written, and write shorter and (sometimes) snarkier bits. :)

I feel totally the same way about being mistaken for you!

1 hour ago, skippylou said:

Does anyone have a clue as to why this radiation sensor is of such importance in this soviet power struggle?  Could it possible impact the signing of the INF treaty at the upcoming summit?  Why Claudia seems to be cut out of the loop?   Do they think she might side with Arkady?   Which side is in control of Elizabeth's other mission with the diplomat?

If Elizabeth gets sent to France it would mean that the resources of this anti-reform "deep state" group are really thin.

I suppose this will all be tied together eventually but I am flummoxed.

I believe the idea is the anti-Gorbachev faction thinks he's approaching things wrong by negotiating in good faith and giving things away. So they're pursuing their own strategy of trying to steal US weaponry. This radiation sensor is something they've heard about and want. It would totally impact the treaty because if the Americans see the Soviets doing this they have reason to not be honest either.

I think Claudia's out of the loop because they're keeping it on a strictly need to know basis. Anybody who knows gets a necklace. Claudia doesn't need to know so she doesn't.

Elizabeth's other mission is coming through the usual channels, via Arkady. So that's the other side by default. But it's not in direct conflict with the anti-Gorbachev people.

50 minutes ago, Darrenbrett said:

I think you misunderstood what I wrote, which had nothing to do with how observant Stan is or isn't. I'm saying the writing lacks some credibility there. If you're a Russian agent, living next door to an FBI agent in counter espionage, you do your VERY BEST to blend in. Regardless of whether Stan was often awake at 3am, they (Philip and Elizabeth) would -- realistically - do their best to not return home at those hours. Far too suspicious. I mean, it can happen once in a blue moon and you can say you had something crazy happen. But when it becomes too regular it would raise red flags. I just don't see Russian agents bringing that kind of unnecessary attention upon themselves -- especially considering what their neighbor does for a living.

The thing is I could swear Philip even says back in season 1 that they'd better be careful and not let their FBI neighbor see his travel agent neighbors coming and going at 4AM. So it's weird to have Stan mention it as if this was something he was just regularly seeing and never thought to mention.

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, skippylou said:

Does anyone have a clue as to why this radiation sensor is of such importance in this soviet power struggle? 

This is only speculation but both sides worry that the START treaty is going to be cover for a sneak nuclear attack by the other. Dead Hand is a scheme to insure that if the US launches a first strike against the Soviet Union, the USSR can respond in kind even though it would be vaporized by the nukes. A sensor that can tell nuclear weapons are inbound would work well to make that plan succeed.

[Pink-n-Green]

4 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

I'm just catching up on the last few pages (and I'm not a Russian speaker or a linguistics expert of any kind),  but I didn't see if anyone else pointed out that Philip and Elizabeth are also people whose first language is Russian but speak American English without any accent.  Seems kind of implausible until you hear Matthew Rhys speak in his "normal" accent.  So I guess it's totally possible that someone could do that.

True, but remember that E and P completed a program to turn them into Americas.  It was no doubt that they were trained to be able to speak English perfectly.

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, Pink-n-Green said:

True, but remember that E and P completed a program to turn them into Americas.  It was no doubt that they were trained to be able to speak English perfectly.

Harvest, also an illegal, would have gone through the same program. Granny and Gabriel also don't have accents. I wondered if the OP meant that the actor who played Harvest is Russian and yet doesn't have an accent. (I don't know if the actor is Russian or not.)

[BingeyKohan]

The more I think about the plane ride back from Chicago the more touching it becomes to me. Others have already commented on the scene presenting a view of the aging Jennings couple which may never happen, one reason I like it. And although we know that E meant Erica when she said ‘someone’s making me learn,’ to explain her sketching, I like how it applies to Philip, too. E has believed art-making to be sentimental and pointless. You could argue P going to Chicago, too, was sentimental and pointless. E knows he didn’t do it for Mother Russia. He did it for her. I commented on parallels this season has been building with the season 1 finale, which I mention in the Story Arc thread. In that finale P resolved to make the sacrifice for the family, against Elizabeth’s wishes. I think the writers are preparing to resolve that conflict once and for all.

[duVerre]

5 hours ago, Cardie said:

Harvest, also an illegal ... I don't know if the actor is Russian or not.

The illegal in Chicago was played by Jonathan Kells Phillips--not Russian. His bio is here. https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2572193/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm  though IMDB doesn't represent his many theatre credits, esp. the Actors Theater of Louisville. It does say, though, that he is a Russian scholar (U of M, Harvard) and studied at the Moscow Art Theatre for two years. So I assume his Russian is fairly fluent.

He is also a voice-over artist: you can listen to a voice-over reel here: http://www.jonathankells.com/voice-over-reel/  (Includes his British accent. Sadly, not a Russian one.)

(I keep thinking that I read an extended piece on him somewhere, but I can't find it.)

[lucindabelle]

On 5/10/2018 at 10:16 PM, duVerre said:

fail. 

 Poor not pretty page. I’d kill to be so not pretty in high school with her perfect profile big brown eyes great height pretty hair and smile. She’s so not average and would have been one of the prettiest girls at my school.

 

I feel that Stan was subconsciously making Philip and Elisabeth last week and that’s what his speech was at Thanksgiving table and that’s why we sought again on previously on. Yes the hug was damning, and the way that Philip and Henry stories matched instead of corroborating one another was a little too packed. It has meant the others have pointed out travel agents do not routinely have to leave their children in the middle of the night, and leave them alone.

It’s also very strange that Henry admits that neither parent has any relatives at all just an aunt he never met. Relatives weren’t even referred to as in relatives that they didn’t live close enough to see 

Edited May 12, 2018 by lucindabelle

[JennyMominFL]

Elizabeth does NOT  have AIDS

[BingeyKohan]

48 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

It’s also very strange that Henry admits that neither parent has any relatives at all just an aunt he never met. 

Returning to my new obsession with the way this season is either echoing or reversing moments in the season 1 finale, I think it's significant that conversation prominently revisited the "Aunt Helen" construct. Aunt Helen was essentially an invention so Elizabeth could recuperate from the gunshot where they were almost captured by Stan and co. at a setup tape. The Jennings had been separated and on what could have been her deathbed Elizabeth says to Philip, in Russian, 'come home.' I think we're building to either an echo or reversal of that scene. 

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

I think you misunderstood what I wrote, which had nothing to do with how observant Stan is or isn't. I'm saying the writing lacks some credibility there. If you're a Russian agent, living next door to an FBI agent in counter espionage, you do your VERY BEST to blend in. Regardless of whether Stan was often awake at 3am, they (Philip and Elizabeth) would -- realistically - do their best to not return home at those hours. Far too suspicious. I mean, it can happen once in a blue moon and you can say you had something crazy happen. But when it becomes too regular it would raise red flags. I just don't see Russian agents bringing that kind of unnecessary attention upon themselves -- especially considering what their neighbor does for a living.

And I think it did start raising flags with Stan when it became too regular - this season. I think we tend to inflate just how often they came home in the dead of night. Those were almost always emergency situations, as I recall. Their "normal" work was most often done during hours that were not remarkable. And when Philip was with Martha, he stayed out all night. But Elizabeth's work load this season is excessive, and she's starting to make mistakes.

10 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Oh man, I remember that scene, but I don't remember it being Marilyn!  But I guess that's a "good" thing since I apparently wasn't supposed to!

Now that you mention it - my dim recollection is that the description was of the librarian who was the computer expert they used to get the information off of Young Hee's husband's computer.

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Is that going on with Stan? I honestly wonder because although Stan's suspicions here still feel to me like they're happening because it's the end of the show and not for organic reasons, I do tend to agree with Umbelina that the hug really sent Stan's sense's tingling. That part made sense to me as a big tell that made Stan zero in on it. But I wonder if Stan is realizing that something has always felt "off" about Philip or Philip and Elizabeth. Or if it's just more practical things and the feeling he got from how Philip is acting now. Like is it just that he's connecting him leaving on Thanksgiving with coming home late and starting to ask about standard Illegals stuff (like if they have family) or is he also thinking that he's always felt something was off about Philip. He said that in the pilot, but later said he thought Philip was a good guy.

I feel totally the same way about being mistaken for you!

I believe the idea is the anti-Gorbachev faction thinks he's approaching things wrong by negotiating in good faith and giving things away. So they're pursuing their own strategy of trying to steal US weaponry. This radiation sensor is something they've heard about and want. It would totally impact the treaty because if the Americans see the Soviets doing this they have reason to not be honest either.

The thing is I could swear Philip even says back in season 1 that they'd better be careful and not let their FBI neighbor see his travel agent neighbors coming and going at 4AM. So it's weird to have Stan mention it as if this was something he was just regularly seeing and never thought to mention.

I do think that's what's going on with Stan. Things he's noticed but set aside, since he'd "cleared" them from suspicion in the first episode. But in this season, things are escalating, and his neighbors and friends are behaving unusually. It feels organic to me. Mostly because the same thing's happened to me, in mostly a hysterical "smack my head" fashion. I notice and intuit a lot, but sometimes it takes forever for the pieces to line up and become coherent.

And yes, I remember Philip saying that.

Aw, shucks. Thanks Sister.

I think the radiation detector is essential to the Dead Hand weapon. The detector allows them to notice a first strike (or something like that - too many complicated things this season).

25 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

Returning to my new obsession with the way this season is either echoing or reversing moments in the season 1 finale, I think it's significant that conversation prominently revisited the "Aunt Helen" construct. Aunt Helen was essentially an invention so Elizabeth could recuperate from the gunshot where they were almost captured by Stan and co. at a setup tape. The Jennings had been separated and on what could have been her deathbed Elizabeth says to Philip, in Russian, 'come home.' I think we're building to either an echo or reversal of that scene. 

I believe Aunt Helen was set in place well before the gunshot. But I could be wrong. She was there, I think to back up multiple illegals - I vaguely recall her having various sets of pictures for her walls.

[Anela]

Sometimes intuition will pick things up, and people don't want it to be true, as well, so they will shelve it. I've been there  before. 

[BradandJanet]

Speaking of relatives, didn't Paige go with Elizabeth to Europe to meet Elizabeth's Russian mother? Did Henry know about this trip? How did Paige keep it a secret?

[Darrenbrett]

56 minutes ago, Anela said:

Sometimes intuition will pick things up, and people don't want it to be true, as well, so they will shelve it. I've been there  before. 

Something about what you're saying rings a bell, and maybe it's true but... wait, oh, never mind. I don't even remember what I was going to say... Couldn't have been that important.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Darrenbrett

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

He did it for her. I commented on parallels this season has been building with the season 1 finale, which I mention in the Story Arc thread. In that finale P resolved to make the sacrifice for the family, against Elizabeth’s wishes. I think the writers are preparing to resolve that conflict once and for all.

The pilot also has Elizabeth telling Philip hopelessly to take Timoshev to the Americans and he kills him instead, tossing away any ideas about defecting. Something he does because Timoshev hurt her personally. Many have always predicted that Philip will turn against Elizabeth for the family, but to me it seems like she is the family for him. That is, when he thinks of saving the family he means all of them, including her. Ultimately I think they both know that their primary relationship is with each other, even if Elizabeth is trying to hold on to Paige via the cause. Kids are supposed to grow up and make their own lives. That old couple on the plane they were portraying is their ideal future--the two of them together.

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

 Poor not pretty page. I’d kill to be so not pretty in high school with her perfect profile big brown eyes great height pretty hair and smile. She’s so not average and would have been one of the prettiest girls at my school.

 

It’s also very strange that Henry admits that neither parent has any relatives at all just an aunt he never met. Relatives weren’t even referred to as in relatives that they didn’t live close enough to see 

Yeah, me too. She is the definition of high school pretty--which is pretty.

Paige also once before mentioned a cousin they had allegedly all met once. I don't think it's too strange a thing for Henry to admit--he's not even really admitting it. What he's saying isn't really weird on the surface, no matter what Paige insisted about how everyone is supposed to have a ton of family. Plenty of people for one reason or another don't have extended family, or don't have family they know about. Estrangements happen, people move, people just don't have siblings or whatever. We've never heard a single word about Stan himself having a family either. No siblings, no parents, no aunts or uncles. Nothing. (Hell, Philip never even mentions the brother he actually has!)

In this case, though, Stan knows that family is one thing that would make Philip and Elizabeth real Americans but since they don't have that they're still suspicious. If Henry had been able to bring up family Stan could check out he could lay his suspicions to rest. The fact that there's this one woman who appeared and disappeared after requiring a 3 month visit doesn't make it any better!

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

And I think it did start raising flags with Stan when it became too regular - this season. I think we tend to inflate just how often they came home in the dead of night. Those were almost always emergency situations, as I recall. Their "normal" work was most often done during hours that were not remarkable. And when Philip was with Martha, he stayed out all night. But Elizabeth's work load this season is excessive, and she's starting to make mistakes.

Now that you mention it - my dim recollection is that the description was of the librarian who was the computer expert they used to get the information off of Young Hee's husband's computer.

I thought the same thing about that description originally but it was definitely Marilyn Gabriel described that way.

I like that so much of this is coming down to Elizabeth getting sloppy. Though it's not just her--Philip's hug was a huge thing. Without each other to turn to consistently their emotions are coming out in other places. But the practical evidence is mostly Elizabeth: the trail of bodies that lead to the sensor, the most recent late nights, running out on Thanksgiving and then needing Philip to come out too. And maybe in future...the cigarettes.

3 minutes ago, BradandJanet said:

Speaking of relatives, didn't Paige go with Elizabeth to Europe to meet Elizabeth's Russian mother? Did Henry know about this trip? How did Paige keep it a secret?

It wasn't a secret. Henry came to see them off at the airport. They went to Germany just as a treat as far as Henry knew.

[Anela]

51 minutes ago, Darrenbrett said:

Something about what you're saying rings a bell, and maybe it's true but... wait, oh, never mind. I don't even remember what I was going to say... Couldn't have been that important.

haha! 

I dealt with something this year, but you eventually need to know the truth. I can see Stan not wanting his friend to be what he thinks he is - and suspected when he first met him - but things start clicking again, and he can't ignore it anymore. He noticed the way Philip changed in demeanour, when he talked about the Russians being killed. Elizabeth rushing off yet again, he has noticed quite a few things over the years. 

Philip really cares for Stan. I don't know that Elizabeth does. In the preview,

he had Elizabeth's picture, not Philip's.

Sorry, just thinking out loud. 

[Inquisitionist]

I've been out of town so just caught up on this episode and Rififi.  Both were brilliant.

[SlovakPrincess]

18 hours ago, anonymiss said:

It's harder to make friends in adulthood but very natural in childhood, yet what is incredulous to me is she's never shown to have had any ever. Any socialization has been for work like church volunteering. She never was shown using that phone in her bedroom to talk to anyone but Pastor Tim and (unsuccessfully) eavesdrop on her parents. They never took the time to flesh her out into a whole believable character so she is just a one-dimensional plot device. 

 

Yeah, it's puzzling.   Though being non-threateningly pretty and people-pleasing -- as Paige is -- is certainly no guarantee of having friends and not being lonely.  It certainly makes it easier at a young age, but it's no guarantee.    (As someone who was conventionally cute in high school, and did have friends  ... but who still got bullied sometimes and felt insecure and isolated and anxious to please a lot ... I can certainly attest to that.  For the record, I turned out fine and am not a spy.  :)   )  

But.  They've never given us the groundwork for Paige.   Even a few scenes over the years of Paige out with other kids, but being too shy or reserved to really get into the conversation, or looking kind of ignored and out of step with others, might have helped explain why she gravitated to adults like Pastor Tim instead of other kids.  They basically just told us when the Pastor Tim mess started that Paige was "searching for something bigger," and that somehow explained everything.  They have put more groundwork into Henry's personality quirks (being something of a loner earlier in childhood, but now thriving as an independent, out-of-the-box thinker) than they have into connecting the dots with Paige -- which is weird because the writers clearly view her as the more important character.  

Maybe they just should have picked a lane with Paige from the start of the series -- she's a normal kid about to lose out on a relatively carefree life, or she's a bit of a loner who's tragically susceptible to manipulation.   Either one would have been interesting, but in the last two seasons or so, Paige has become kind of an enigma.   So it's hard to pin down if Paige was always out of step with her peers, or if Pastor Tim and her parents just royally effed her up.   

But now she admits she's terrified of being alone ... even though she willingly spent most of her time in her terrible-wallpapered-bedroom as a teen even before learning her parents' dark secret.   So .... ?????   Maybe that wallpaper drove her nuts?

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Paige also once before mentioned a cousin they had allegedly all met once. I don't think it's too strange a thing for Henry to admit--he's not even really admitting it. What he's saying isn't really weird on the surface, no matter what Paige insisted about how everyone is supposed to have a ton of family. Plenty of people for one reason or another don't have extended family, or don't have family they know about. Estrangements happen, people move, people just don't have siblings or whatever. We've never heard a single word about Stan himself having a family either. No siblings, no parents, no aunts or uncles. Nothing. (Hell, Philip never even mentions the brother he actually has!)

I thought the same thing about that description originally but it was definitely Marilyn Gabriel described that way.

I like that so much of this is coming down to Elizabeth getting sloppy. Though it's not just her--Philip's hug was a huge thing. Without each other to turn to consistently their emotions are coming out in other places. But the practical evidence is mostly Elizabeth: the trail of bodies that lead to the sensor, the most recent late nights, running out on Thanksgiving and then needing Philip to come out too. And maybe in future...the cigarettes.

I had very little in the way of extended family, and we moved a lot (military) so never saw the ones we did have. It does make you feel different - at least for me - it makes you feel very separate from the rest of the world. I have little understanding of certain kinds of relationships (grandparents, uncles/aunts, cousins). So that was something I did relate to when it came to Paige - and I think it reflects her need, even back then, to feel like she belongs somewhere - and to something larger than herself. 

I like, as well, that one of the reasons Elizabeth is getting sloppy is that she's serving two masters at this point. They are literally working her to death. (well, I guess we'll see if it's actually literally)

[Penman61]

18 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

 For the record, I turned out fine and am not a spy.  :)   )  

 

This is EXACTLY what a spy would say...

[Clanstarling]

11 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

But now she admits she's terrified of being alone ... even though she willingly spent most of her time in her terrible-wallpapered-bedroom as a teen even before learning her parents' dark secret.   So .... ?????   Maybe that wallpaper drove her nuts?

That was the one note I felt was a little off. But after thinking about it (thanks for the Philip hug @sistermagpie, it sparked something), I think that being afraid of being alone is actually part of what they've shown her as being - someone who wanted to belong to something bigger than herself. Wanting to belong doesn't necessarily mean you have the skills or desire to belong with members of your age group. A lot of loners in high school, those who are willingly loners, are that way because they just don't care about what other teenagers care about, for whatever reason, or feel like they have anything in common. They just can't relate.  So perhaps she's afraid of being alone in the sense that she needs...well, comrades in arms. People who are fighting/working for the same thing.

If Elizabeth truly wanted to give Paige an out, she should have suggested that there are other ways to contribute. But of course, she's limited in her perspective, and probably doesn't really see that any other paths can as important in terms of making a difference as what she does. I think she does want to give Paige a way out, she does want Paige to live a different life, but she can't see the options, because life has never been about options for Elizabeth. Just duty.

[SlovakPrincess]

4 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

A lot of loners in high school, those who are willingly loners, are that way because they just don't care about what other teenagers care about, for whatever reason, or feel like they have anything in common. They just can't relate.  So perhaps she's afraid of being alone in the sense that she needs...well, comrades in arms. People who are fighting/working for the same thing.

If Elizabeth truly wanted to give Paige an out, she should have suggested that there are other ways to contribute. But of course, she's limited in her perspective, and probably doesn't really see that any other paths can as important in terms of making a difference as what she does. I think she does want to give Paige a way out, she does want Paige to live a different life, but she can't see the options, because life has never been about options for Elizabeth. Just duty.

 This is a very good point.  But did Paige have any real interests or hobbies before meeting Pastor Tim?  Most of her political interests came from him.  Most kids - especially kids with some resources and thus ability to do sports or other after school stuff - have something they're interested in.  I guess I'll have to go back and find some of the clips of Paige before Pastor Tim.

All I could think when Elizabeth was talking to Paige was "it's a little damn late to parent the girl now!"  I mean, geez.  And since when does Paige have an actual choice?  If she ever did, she's in far too deep now.  Convincing the Centre early on that Paige lacked the skills to be a good spy would have been P and E's best bet for stopping this madness, but it's too late now that Elizabeth and Claudia are trying so hard to make Paige the Spy happen.  

 

15 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

This is EXACTLY what a spy would say...

LMAO

[sistermagpie]

32 minutes ago, Anela said:

haha! 

I dealt with something this year, but you eventually need to know the truth. I can see Stan not wanting his friend to be what he thinks he is - and suspected when he first met him - but things start clicking again, and he can't ignore it anymore. He noticed the way Philip changed in demeanour, when he talked about the Russians being killed. Elizabeth rushing off yet again, he has noticed quite a few things over the years. 

Philip really cares for Stan. I don't know that Elizabeth does. In the preview,

 

I remember there was some scene in the past where Stan was talking about a woman Illegal and at the time I felt like psychologically he kept focusing on "her" because unconsciously he was more comfortable with that than with Philip being a spy. Of course there are times when he'd be just talking about a woman especially now--like if he was showing her picture to someone he thought had interacted with a woman and not a man. But it'll be really interesting if Stan *wants* to believe that Philip was sucked into this and wants help more than he does. Philip has tried to protect Stan and it would make sense for Stan to want to do the same for Philip. If Philip doesn't want Stan to be another Martha, Stan doesn't want Philip to be another Nina.

12 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I had very little in the way of extended family, and we moved a lot (military) so never saw the ones we did have. It does make you feel different - at least for me - it makes you feel very separate from the rest of the world. I have little understanding of certain kinds of relationships (grandparents, uncles/aunts, cousins). So that was something I did relate to when it came to Paige - and I think it reflects her need, even back then, to feel like she belongs somewhere - and to something larger than herself. 

 

I completely understand it making her feel different--I just didn't agree with her insistence that it was *wrong* in some fundamental way. Like it was fundamentally suspicious. Of course it was in her case so I think that was just her correctly connecting it to the general weirdness, but in the US especially it's not impossible to be disconnected from extended family ties.

I remember in college, actually, I was surprised when it became a running joke that I had a million cousins because I guess I had more interactions with them that came up. And I would generally just refer to the person as "my cousin" no matter which one I was talking about. So at some point somebody just said, "How many cousins do you HAVE exactly?"

4 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Wanting to belong doesn't necessarily mean you have the skills or desire to belong with members of your age group. A lot of loners in high school, those who are willingly loners, are that way because they just don't care about what other teenagers care about, for whatever reason, or feel like they have anything in common.

FWIW, this is how I've always seen Paige. I think early on they established that she did have relationships just like she does now in college. She wasn't always left out of things in high school. But she was never shown as particularly invested in things going on with them or stuff the were doing like going to the mall or whatever. I remember in the scene where she talks about Brian she says she went out with some friends from her sociology class which implied that they weren't really friends. Like these weren't people with names Elizabeth (who spends so much time with her) would know. They're not just friends. They're people she talks to in class who went out afterwards and the only person who really mattered was the boy.

That makes me wonder if another reason Paige is so focused on boys is that she's desperately trying to find a romance like Elizabeth's. She's not really any more interested in them than she is anyone, but they might be "the one."

Henry, by contrasted, often had interests in things around him in the world. He mentioned kids at school, had a birthday party with a lot of kids, was interested in the sports he played, TV shows he watched, movies. He went through a period where he was more interested in Stan and then Matthew than kids his own age, but to me that just signaled that he was independent. That is, that he was interested in what he was interested in. He was like that for a while, then got more interested in friends at school again and immediately had a group. We didn't see him much interact with kids his own age but the little we heard about said he was interested in them.

With Paige she mostly only ever wanted to talk about her own problems and the bigger meaning behind them. Pastor Tim, as a pastor, was all about that. Kelly on the bus was the same way--and she gave Paige her solution by bringing her to church. With Matthew Paige always wanted to talk about her life and the meaning of things in it for her. She's frankly not as interested in other people beyond emulating them or not so that might be another reason she never had many friends.

3 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

 I guess I'll have to go back and find some of the clips of Paige before Pastor Tim.

There's a scene where the school calls to let her parents know she's quit the volleyball team and they're concerned. I think she says she was only second string anyway, but I remember thinking it *was* disturbing because she was just making her whole life about the church and therefore this guy. When Philip talked to her he said something about not just quitting things in the middle.

It showed to me that Paige sometimes went through the motions of having interests but wasn't really into any of them. It was only the church and the politics--into which she brought her mom--that really interested her.

[jjj]

That is a great point, about Stan not wanting Philip to be another Nina -- although of course Philip represents a very different kind of threat.

In Season 1, I always thought they would get around to explaining Stan's undercover work and PTSD and murderous rage (in the case of killing his partner's supposed killer) -- and then thought it would come back in another season.  But nope.  They spent enough time on it early in the series that I thought it would be more significant.  Now we get more of teddy bear Stan, not suppressed rage Stan.

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I remember there was some scene in the past where Stan was talking about a woman Illegal and at the time I felt like psychologically he kept focusing on "her" because unconsciously he was more comfortable with that than with Philip being a spy. Of course there are times when he'd be just talking about a woman especially now--like if he was showing her picture to someone he thought had interacted with a woman and not a man. But it'll be really interesting if Stan *wants* to believe that Philip was sucked into this and wants help more than he does. Philip has tried to protect Stan and it would make sense for Stan to want to do the same for Philip. If Philip doesn't want Stan to be another Martha, Stan doesn't want Philip to be another Nina.

Edited May 12, 2018 by jjj

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I thought the same thing about that description originally but it was definitely Marilyn Gabriel described that way.

Yep. It was in the context of putting together a countersurveillance team so P&E can meet with William. He mentions using the inconspicuous librarian, Hans, and "the older man," and then when the meet with William happens, the three people on the team are Marilyn, Hans, and Norm.

Since Gabriel's comments are vague and the meet-up doesn't happen until a later episode, there was initially some confusion and some people thought he was talking about the computer expert, but I believe there's a later scene in the Rezidentura where Tatiana asks Oleg to loan him the computer tech, so that can't be who Gabriel was talking about. 

[Umbelina]

The "older woman computer tech" Gabe needed was for the shakedown/con of Young Hee's husband at the office.  They were looking for the access codes to level 4 or whatever it was for William.

[Dev F]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

The "older woman computer tech" Gabe needed was for the shakedown/con of Young Hee's husband at the office.  They were looking for the access codes to level 4 or whatever it was for William.

No, I remember who the computer tech was, but that's not who Gabriel was talking about. The tech was an illegal that Tatiana arranged through Oleg -- remember the scene where she asks him for a female computer expert in her fifties or sixties who speaks perfect English?

[Umbelina]

25 minutes ago, Dev F said:

No, I remember who the computer tech was, but that's not who Gabriel was talking about. The tech was an illegal that Tatiana arranged through Oleg -- remember the scene where she asks him for a female computer expert in her fifties or sixties who speaks perfect English?

Yes, that was for the Young Hee job.  When Philip pretended to be the brother of the woman that Young Hee's husband told to  have an abortion.  I can't remember what Elizabeth's cover name was for that op.

Anyway, Philip (brother) and Gabe (dad) and older computer tech (step mom) needed to get into his office, and Young Hee's husband left to get the shake down money, while the computer tech began downloading his computer files, and Gabe searched the office.  Tatiana helped arrange finding an "older computer tech" that could pass as Gabe's second wife.

Marilyn was just someone Gabe recruited.  The computer tech older woman was KGB, though not normally an undercover KGB agent.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I completely understand it making her feel different--I just didn't agree with her insistence that it was *wrong* in some fundamental way. Like it was fundamentally suspicious. Of course it was in her case so I think that was just her correctly connecting it to the general weirdness, but in the US especially it's not impossible to be disconnected from extended family ties.

Oh, I agree with your disagreement (so to speak). I think most of us can look objective and say "lots of people don't have extended families" - but Paige was working with a small subset and probably most of the people she knew seemed to have more connections ('seemed' being the operative word). She thought her family was weird and that was the first thing she hung her hat on.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

FWIW, this is how I've always seen Paige. I think early on they established that she did have relationships just like she does now in college. She wasn't always left out of things in high school. But she was never shown as particularly invested in things going on with them or stuff the were doing like going to the mall or whatever.

Yes - she wasn't particularly invested. I like the way you put that.

[Milburn Stone]

As I anticipate the finale, I find myself wanting things to turn out OK for everybody! (Which is the first time I can remember thinking that way about a show like this.) "Don't want her to suffer...don't want him to die...nope, don't want her to spend life in the pen...don't want him to endure an ignominious fate..." Etc. The only person on either side that I feel OK about going down is Granny!

[magemaud]

On 5/10/2018 at 10:48 AM, icemiser69 said:

Philip doesn't have a necklace, but that doesn't mean that he didn't take the pill out of Harvest's necklace.   If I had to guess, Philip has that cyanide pill.

That's what I was thinking, too, until someone on this forum said that Harvest took the pill himself. 

[jjj]

6 minutes ago, magemaud said:

That's what I was thinking, too, until someone on this forum said that Harvest took the pill himself. 

Yes, he took the pill while Philip was looking at Elizabeth.   That's when Philip stopped trying to compress the wound. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Yes - she wasn't particularly invested. I like the way you put that.

This made me think of something else going on this season with Elizabeth. She starts out saying how she can't understand Erika wasting her life on art and takes no interest in every day life. Paige seems to have the same impulse saying she doesn't really have any friends because her friends don't have the same mindset.

Neither of them shows much interest in every day life. They want to be part of something bigger. But actual life is usually made up of these little day to day things. Sometimes you have to band together for a bigger cause, but it's not all Stalingrad. Having friends usually means that whatever thing you first have in common, you come to care about them on every level. If they have some petty thing going on in their life--annoying co-worker, embarrassing rash, art class--you have some interest in it. 

In the premiere Elizabeth says anything Philip might have to say about his job or Henry can wait until morning--and then never asks about it. Of course she's under stress, but really so is he. What's going on with Philip is actually a huge thing. On a show not about spies it would be the central issue. Every time we see him practically he's hunched over a calculator trying to make it work. It believably consumes a lot of his mind all the time. It's even caused personal pain when he had to fire Stavos or tell Henry about the tuition.

But several times they underline that Elizabeth is barely aware of it. She asks "You rich yet?" when he's freaking out. Offers no support about disappointing Henry ("He's your department"). Casually tells him to fire people and says she doesn't know anybody's names at the office. Turns out he didn't tell her about firing Stavos. Even aside from being a wife, she's not a good friend. She just takes it for granted that her issues are real since they're about the Cause and whatever he's going through is unimportant because it's just life. 

When she was getting healthier in earlier seasons it seemed like she was starting to be less that way. Take the whole country music thing. There were a few times when she was sort of affectionate about it. I'd imagine if you're married to this guy you'd find the country music thing endearing. You'd probably wind up knowing a lot about it even if you weren't interested just through him. Has she ever even seen him line dance? The audience and show creators seem to all be delighted by it but it's unclear if she even knows he does it, much less would find it as endearing as the audience does. I think she might be pretty struck by the sight of it--I mean, seeing how this guy has the ability to enjoy it. It's hard to look at that and think it's a waste of time.

It's fitting that Erika has her drawing pictures of every day objects, getting her to really look at ordinary things. See the art in them and the meaning. And sad that in the same episode Paige seems to be going the opposite way, deciding that her not having any friends is because other people are flawed--even people who are also interested in politics etc. She'll just keep waiting for some phantom perfect person. Yet what did Philip say about the first time Elizabeth saw him? That she was disappointed. She wanted someone else, even if she didn't know who. It took over a decade of mundane, everyday life for her to see something else in him.

[magemaud]

Could somebody please clarify my question about Stan's house. Is it a U-shaped duplex with a shared driveway and common wall with someone else? If not, it's an enormous house for what was once a family of three, now two. The Jennings live across the street, not in the other half of the unit, right? Last week, when Renee and Stan were having a conversation outside the house, when Renee pulled out of the driveway, it was a one way street with other houses quite a ways in the distance. Then, in this episode, when Stan was looking at the Jennings' darkened house before he broke in, it was just across the street. 

Edited May 12, 2018 by magemaud

[hellmouse]

18 minutes ago, magemaud said:

Could somebody please clarify my question about Stan's house. Is it a U-shaped duplex with a shared driveway and common wall with someone else? If not, it's an enormous house for what was once a family of three, now two. The Jennings live across the street, not in the other half of the unit, right? Last week, when Renee and Stan were having a conversation outside the house, when Renee pulled out of the driveway, it was a one way street with other houses quite a ways in the distance. Then, in this episode, when Stan was looking at the Jennings' darkened house before he broke in, it was just across the street. 

 

The Jennings family lives across the street from Stan.

They live in identical buildings. The buildings are triplexes. There are three units - two on each side and one in the middle. The Jennings live in the left side of their building. So does Stan.

We never see any neighbors in the other parts of the buildings. I think we are meant to believe that they are single family homes. Obviously, they are not because the interior floor plan doesn't match the exterior footprint.

Edited May 12, 2018 by hellmouse

[Penman61]

Not kidding:  I just today found out that Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys are a couple IRL, like with kids and stuff and everything.

Wow.  Right under my nose, for years...totally obvious when I think about it.

Now I know how Stan feels (or will feel very soon)...

Edited May 13, 2018 by Penman61

[MisterBluxom]

10 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Not kidding:  I just today found out that Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys are a couple IRL, like with kids and stuff and everything.

Wow.  Right under my nose, for years...totally obvious when I think about it.

Now I know how Stan feels (or will feel very soon)...

It's not difficult to understand at all. If you have ever seen any of her other films or TV shows (like The Waitress), Keri Russel is an incredibly attractive lady. It may just be my opinion, but I think most any man in this world would be incredibly fortunate to find himself married to her.