S13.E20: Unfinished Business

[cavelupum]

34 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Welcome, Cavelupum!  I'd be all for Sam finally getting the best of Lucifer.  He's more than overstayed his welcome and Sam deserves the right to end him.  Maybe he and Rowena both can be the ones to take him out.  I'd settle for anything that moves this show beyond the Lucifer storyline.

Thank you for the welcome, MysteryGuest! I’d be fine with Rowena playing a role in the downfall of Lucifer, goodness knows she has plenty of reasons to want him gone. I’m a big fan of her dynamic with Sam and she’s really grown on me over the last few years, so much so that she’s become one of my favorite characters to watch. Curious to see how much (or little) the next few episodes will move her and Sam toward the goal of finishing Lucifer off for good. Whenever he does meet his end, I seem to share your feelings in that I won’t be sad to see him go!

[Bergamot]

45 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

And when Jensen said "Dean steps up in a big way", I was hopeful that it meant he'd get to do something actually heroic, as opposed to just making some reckless decision a la the Mark of Cain, because he doesn't think his life is worth anything.

I guess this might not be something that everyone can understand, but Dean being in a dark place, maybe being ready, even more than ready, for the pain to end, does not mean that he cannot be "actually heroic". It does not negate the courage, strength, and compassion for others that he shows by continuing to do what he does, as he always has, to save people. Dean connects with people, he loves and protects his family and friends, he is capable of enjoying the little things in life in a way that not everyone can. Thinking wrongly that his life is not worth anything does not mean that it doesn't count when he risks it to save others.The fact that he cannot believe in his own worth, that he gets dragged down and overwhelmed by depression, is a tragedy, but it does not mean that he cannot be a hero. I think he is very heroic. But I have to admit that this is too close for me, so I will say no more.

[Aeryn13]

The entire time Sam was silently observing Gabriel`s Beatrice Kiddo impersonation and taking notes for his pressing need to take revenge on Lucifer, my mind flashed to images of Season 11, when Lucifer was in the bunker. Picture him under the show (maybe he and God had that in common) while Sam sneaks in and flushes the toilet. Then he runs away, laughing manically. 

That tought amused me far more than what happened in this ep. 

Quote

The fact that he cannot believe in his own worth, that he gets dragged down and overwhelmed by depression, is a tragedy, but it does not mean that he cannot be a hero. I think he is very heroic. 

But I do believe that is how the narrative frames it. That his motivations aren`t actually heroic because oh well, he just does it out of low self-worth. It`s a set-up to diminish him and that`s why I rolled my eyes so hard at Dean`s portion in the final scene. It just takes a lot of anticipation for what comes next out of things. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

33 minutes ago, Res said:

If you think about it, each death he doesn't prevent takes a total on him,

Dean reminds me of the character Kevin Costner played in The Guardian.  It was about Coast Guard rescue swimmers.   Ben Randall was kind of the big deal, and the young trainee asks him how many he saved.  Ben says 17.  (Or something like that its been awhile since I watched the movie).  It seems like of low for his repuatation but he quickly clarifies that's the number he lost.  It was the only number he kept track off. 

I think Dean is the same way. 

Ironically, Dean would probably know this movie since Ashton Kutcher played the trainee.

[Bergamot]

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But I do believe that is how the narrative frames it. That his motivations aren`t actually heroic because oh well, he just does it out of low self-worth. It`s a set-up to diminish him

Well, anything is possible, but I tend to disagree. And even if Dabb and all the producers and writers came out with an interview in which they stated that the story was set up to show this, and that Dean is obviously not, you know, actually heroic or anything like that -- I would say that they are wrong.  I don't really care about the consensus -- it's just my opinion.

[ahrtee]

41 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The entire time Sam was silently observing Gabriel`s Beatrice Kiddo impersonation and taking notes for his pressing need to take revenge on Lucifer, my mind flashed to images of Season 11, when Lucifer was in the bunker. Picture him under the show (maybe he and God had that in common) while Sam sneaks in and flushes the toilet. Then he runs away, laughing manically. 

The whole time Loki was giving his "you killed my father" speech, I kept expecting him (or Gabriel) to say "My name is Inigo Montoya..."

Edited April 29, 2018 by ahrtee

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

I guess this might not be something that everyone can understand, but Dean being in a dark place, maybe being ready, even more than ready, for the pain to end, does not mean that he cannot be "actually heroic". It does not negate the courage, strength, and compassion for others that he shows by continuing to do what he does, as he always has, to save people. Dean connects with people, he loves and protects his family and friends, he is capable of enjoying the little things in life in a way that not everyone can. Thinking wrongly that his life is not worth anything does not mean that it doesn't count when he risks it to save others.The fact that he cannot believe in his own worth, that he gets dragged down and overwhelmed by depression, is a tragedy, but it does not mean that he cannot be a hero. I think he is very heroic. But I have to admit that this is too close for me, so I will say no more.

For me, there is a difference, though.  I'm not saying that his taking on the Mark of Cain wasn't heroic, but it was different than when he agreed to be the bomb to take out Amara.  Dean has always been self-sacrificing, especially when it involves Sam or other family and friends, but I don't enjoy seeing him relapse to where he doesn't value his own life.  I thought he'd moved past that a bit, especially after Chuck told him how important he was and that the world was in good hands with him.  It was a lot of pressure, sure, but I think it also made him start to look at himself a bit differently.  Now it's like he's reverted right back to thinking he's worthless and needs to always be the sacrificial lamb.  I don't like seeing him this way and I wish they didn't feel the need to go there.

[belbar]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

For me, there is a difference, though.  I'm not saying that his taking on the Mark of Cain wasn't heroic, but it was different than when he agreed to be the bomb to take out Amara.  Dean has always been self-sacrificing, especially when it involves Sam or other family and friends, but I don't enjoy seeing him relapse to where he doesn't value his own life.  I thought he'd moved past that a bit, especially after Chuck told him how important he was and that the world was in good hands with him.  It was a lot of pressure, sure, but I think it also made him start to look at himself a bit differently.  Now it's like he's reverted right back to thinking he's worthless and needs to always be the sacrificial lamb.  I don't like seeing him this way and I wish they didn't feel the need to go there.

His taking the MOC wasn't heroic itself. It was the result of his frame of mind at the moment. He explained himself on the bridge when he parted ways with Sam. He thought that because of what happened with Gadreel, Sam and Kevin he destroyed everything that he touched (or something like that). Crowley, like usual, made the most of the situation and conned him into taking the MOC for his own benefit (because Abbadon was a real threat to him) offering it as a way of getting rid of Abbadon. Remember that they had resurrected Abbadon for one ot the tests for the trials, and she had escaped, so it was unfinished business for Dean. He was desperate, at the bottom in his selfsteem and rushed into it withouth even asking for the consequences. He was a wounded animal reacting not thinking. Some call it reckless, and I don't disagree but I call it desperate.

As for Chuck and his speech it probably made him look at himself in a different way, but given who he is, it only means a feeling of a bigger responsability and a heavier burden. Once the steem and sense of selworth of someone is shot to hell rebuild it won't be easy and certainly not by a 30 seconds speech no matter who it comes from.

They're now back to season 5 crisis (as per Dean own words), he's facing again his worst nightmare and is reverting to what was imprinted in him from the beginning. What he was taught from the start and the only thing he's ever known. It's human nature. I don't see it so crazy (not smart ok, but that's a different point).

[Lemuria]

13 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

It is Gabriel's grace. Personally I would have been surprised if Cas did not object to Sam withholding any of it.  Gabriel deserves all of his own grace. It should be his to give or keep.

I totally agree it was Gabriel's grace and should be given back to him to help him recover.  That being said, however, shouldn't that be something that Sam should have mentioned to Dean?  "I should just let you know that 30 seconds after you step into that rift--you know, the one that's going to close in 24 hours--I'm going to give the rest of the grace back to Gabriel, essentially stranding you in the AW if you can't get back to the rift in time.  So, have you checked the battery in your watch lately?"

Sam seemed to assume Gabriel would give them more grace, in case Sam needed to go to Dean's rescue.  Sammy, you know that they say about "when you assume," right?  (And why the heck would Sam assume Gabriel would help them when he not only knows that Gabriel ditched the entire world back in season 5 (and again when Auntie Amara showed up) and has shown that he cares only for himself?)

[annspal]

1 hour ago, belbar said:

It seems like an endless loop (sure, if they were solved for good it'd mean the end of the show) which would be a very hard and pressing burden on anyone. And that's specially true about their personnal issues.

This has been the focus of my thinking since season four. Then, I looked for in-show explanations for the loops, echoes, repeats, and mirrors. They can be found from the earliest days. Take me home. I can never go home. (I now think there was no accident about choosing the Woman in White as the very first story to tell.) The premise of the show, urban legends, depends on storytelling and the existence of alternate versions of what is true.

Anyway! I really like this episode. I hesitated before coming to read the boards because it was obvious some would have their reasons to take offense.

• I loved getting the return of the boys operating out of a themed motel room - room divider and all! It makes up for the severely limited appearance of the Impala. I am particularly enchanted by one of the paintings on the walls. We see it as Sam and Dean are deciding whether to settle in just before Gabriel shows up. Here's a crop (as Dean discovers the bed vibrates).   (I wish I could control where it lands in the post, but....) I see two men in the canoe, facing the same direction, about to reach shore, one acting as hunter/protector and the other is guiding/steering. I see this as perfect foreshadowing of how I want the Winchesters to approach the next do or die crisis that we can presume is unavoidable. No more solo sacrifices of jumping into cages or being sucked off to purgatory, etc.  
• Is there anything to be made of this being the Silver Dollar Hotel? Fate determined by the flip of a coin - like Choose Your Own Adventure possibilities?
• Back to the element of STORYTELLING inside the story! Of course this happens with Gabriel providing his backstory. The layer I love was Dean insisting on an in-progress REVISION to make it match previously "known" facts (Where are the porn stars?). We also get flexible storytelling when Kevin Tran insists that he has to believe what Micheal has told him (so he can be reunited with his mom!) - despite Mary's insistence that it is a lie and the heaven she knows is only memories. 
• Jack and Mary play out a version of restraining the impulse to charge off alone to tackle the danger/bad guy/. Mary appeals to Jack to wait a day for AltBobby (as many of us wanted Dean to wait for Cass before taking off without Sam through the rift). When Jack appears to decide he will go anyway, that's when Kevin's hand is forced and his suicide mission is triggered. He would have held off longer otherwise, right? I loved the visual display of Jack's protective wings saving Mary, but the resulting lesson wasn't very hopeful, was it? What's the point if I can't save people? (paraphrased) 
• I just rewatched and the point I will mention about the Sam and Dean conversation at the end is that Sam first broaches the topic in a very neutral, unchallenging way, giving Dean an opening to explain his thinking for running off to challenge Loki alone. Perhaps typically, Dean sidesteps the "offer" and Sam gets frustrated quickly. 

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I thought he'd moved past that a bit, especially after Chuck told him how important he was and that the world was in good hands with him.  It was a lot of pressure, sure, but I think it also made him start to look at himself a bit differently.  

Chuck's parting speech was no different to me than John's. You're important, you've always done more than me but hey here's some more crap that I'm foisting off on you, no pressure! 

[Lemuria]

1 hour ago, annspal said:

No more solo sacrifices of jumping into cages or being sucked off to purgatory, etc.  

How was Dean's ending up in Purgatory a "solo sacrifice?"  It was an unexpected and unintended consequence of using a "God weapon."  All three of them--Dean, Sam and Cas--were on that mission and they had no choice but to split up:  They had to rescue Kevin and to kill DR.  One brother went after Kevin (not without its own dangers) and one had to accompany Cas--the only one who could recognize which of the clones was DR--on the "Destroy Dick" excursion.

[annspal]

7 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

How was Dean's ending up in Purgatory a "solo sacrifice?"  It was an unexpected and unintended consequence of using a "God weapon."  All three of them--Dean, Sam and Cas--were on that mission and they had no choice but to split up:  They had to rescue Kevin and to kill DR.  One brother went after Kevin (not without its own dangers) and one had to accompany Cas--the only one who could recognize which of the clones was DR--on the "Destroy Dick" excursion.

 

10 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

No more solo sacrifices of jumping into cages or being sucked off to purgatory, etc.  -- expected or not, intended or not.

Better? I am personally flying high at the moment at the thought of the Winchesters being in the same boat and uniting to define what is possible. (I'm of the opinion that if 5.23 Swan Song had turned into the series finale, Adam wouldn't have been necessary and both Sam and Dean would have gone together to "break on through to the other side.") Since we know we are getting season 14, I anticipate we won't see a final chapter, but what fun if S&D find (create?) a new level to the game for one of Dean's do-overs! alternative world?!  It would turn out bad like the 4.08 Wishful Thinking wishes, no doubt, but still....

This spoiler-less speculation only. I'll enjoy it while I can! 

[devlin]

Wow, that last scene. Will for the love of god someone tell dean that he matters and his life is important 

[Bobcatkitten]

Reminds me of this from Season 2 - 

 

Bobby: What is it with you Winchesters, huh? You, your dad. You're both just itching to throw yourselves down the pit.

Dean:That's my point. Dad brought me back, Bobby. I'm not even supposed to be here. At least this way, something good could come out of it, you know? I--I--It's like my life could mean something.

Bobby: What? And it didn't before?! Have you got that low of an opinion of yourself? Are you that screwed in the head?! (He grabs DEAN again)

 

 

Over time I have come to believe it's not about Dean not thinking he is worth something. It's really not. He just loves completely and will do anything to save those he loves. 

[devlin]

I had to laugh at the shot of gabe walking down the hallway flanked by dean and sam. Speight putting himself in the position of main character and lead action hero, nice try buddy!

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Reminds me of this from Season 2 - 

 

Bobby: What is it with you Winchesters, huh? You, your dad. You're both just itching to throw yourselves down the pit.

Dean:That's my point. Dad brought me back, Bobby. I'm not even supposed to be here. At least this way, something good could come out of it, you know? I--I--It's like my life could mean something.

Bobby: What? And it didn't before?! Have you got that low of an opinion of yourself? Are you that screwed in the head?! (He grabs DEAN again)

 

 

Over time I have come to believe it's not about Dean not thinking he is worth something. It's really not. He just loves completely and will do anything to save those he loves. 

I think Dean does not have a sense of self anymore.

[belbar]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think Dean does not have a sense of self anymore.

Dean was taught from a very early age (formative years) that he was nothing but his brother's guard. All his value was to keep Sam safe. Sam was the vauable one. The one John dotten on. He was just a tool. What do you think that does to anyone sense of self.?

Yes, John may have had the best intention and love his children. But man he was something else, and a good example that loving someone is not everything. After all busive spouses love their partners too.

[Castiels Cat]

11 hours ago, Res said:

You are right and it reminds me of Dean in season 7 where he commented that if the world was that desperate to end (3 apocalypses in 3 years), that maybe they should let it already. He might be to that point again. If you think about it, each death he doesn't prevent takes a total on him, regardless of the later resurrection, because you never know IF they are coming back and he takes his failure to prevent the death to heart regardless. It's got to be wearing on him something fierce by now. He might be to the point, understandably, that he just CANNOT watch another loved one/AU replica loved one die. 

Thank you! He's a real cutie!

I replied to your pm because I saw the notification blurb and hit the link before it disappeared.  If you responded to my reply... I have no idea where to find pm's????

Oh and exactly... He makes rhat observation then about t hete always being another Apocalypse.

I think I started thinking about the universe being out of kilter because they stopped the Apocalypse then too after the Edlund episode in which Cas says,they need another species, a cat of course, and he wants to play twister or risk doesn't he (reference to R.E.M.)... real end of the world vibe before going to bone dick.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think Dean does not have a sense of self anymore.

His sense of self is his sense of purpose forged in rhe fire that took his mother.  Saving people.  The family business.  This is Dean's purpose.  Saving people to save other families from the horror that his family had to suffer.  The show's mantra is all Dean and it has always been Dean's reason for being and he never feels,failure more accutely rjan when he fails to save his own family.

That is the pain we saw when Mary disappeared into that rift.  It was Dean reliving the pain his 4 year old self felt as well as Dean reliving the pain he felt at losing Sam in the Apocalypse, he'll everyone he lost in the Apocalypse, every other person he failed.

Jensen knows this. It is why Dean does not move the sane way he did as a young man. Jensen has changed how he walks and how he carries his body to reflect the loss that Dean carries with him.

This.  And tying it to Mary. This is why I have to applaud the writers.  It is simply incredible.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, devlin said:

Wow, that last scene. Will for the love of god someone tell dean that he matters and his life is important 

Maybe he was the one that needed an imaginary friend...lol.

Seriously... though...  yes.  Serious mental illness.   He is severely depressed and suicidal.  Going through the motions...

He truly believes the Best he can offer this world is to die and maybe if he plays it right he will save someone else and garner a small win for good. 

Not an easy fix this 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, annspal said:

This has been the focus of my thinking since season four. Then, I looked for in-show explanations for the loops, echoes, repeats, and mirrors. They can be found from the earliest days. Take me home. I can never go home. (I now think there was no accident about choosing the Woman in White as the very first story to tell.) The premise of the show, urban legends, depends on storytelling and the existence of alternate versions of what is true.

Anyway! I really like this episode. I hesitated before coming to read the boards because it was obvious some would have their reasons to take offense.

• I loved getting the return of the boys operating out of a themed motel room - room divider and all! It makes up for the severely limited appearance of the Impala. I am particularly enchanted by one of the paintings on the walls. We see it as Sam and Dean are deciding whether to settle in just before Gabriel shows up. Here's a crop (as Dean discovers the bed vibrates).   (I wish I could control where it lands in the post, but....) I see two men in the canoe, facing the same direction, about to reach shore, one acting as hunter/protector and the other is guiding/steering. I see this as perfect foreshadowing of how I want the Winchesters to approach the next do or die crisis that we can presume is unavoidable. No more solo sacrifices of jumping into cages or being sucked off to purgatory, etc.  
• Is there anything to be made of this being the Silver Dollar Hotel? Fate determined by the flip of a coin - like Choose Your Own Adventure possibilities?
• Back to the element of STORYTELLING inside the story! Of course this happens with Gabriel providing his backstory. The layer I love was Dean insisting on an in-progress REVISION to make it match previously "known" facts (Where are the porn stars?). We also get flexible storytelling when Kevin Tran insists that he has to believe what Micheal has told him (so he can be reunited with his mom!) - despite Mary's insistence that it is a lie and the heaven she knows is only memories. 
• Jack and Mary play out a version of restraining the impulse to charge off alone to tackle the danger/bad guy/. Mary appeals to Jack to wait a day for AltBobby (as many of us wanted Dean to wait for Cass before taking off without Sam through the rift). When Jack appears to decide he will go anyway, that's when Kevin's hand is forced and his suicide mission is triggered. He would have held off longer otherwise, right? I loved the visual display of Jack's protective wings saving Mary, but the resulting lesson wasn't very hopeful, was it? What's the point if I can't save people? (paraphrased) 
• I just rewatched and the point I will mention about the Sam and Dean conversation at the end is that Sam first broaches the topic in a very neutral, unchallenging way, giving Dean an opening to explain his thinking for running off to challenge Loki alone. Perhaps typically, Dean sidesteps the "offer" and Sam gets frustrated quickly. 

Interesting observations.  

What's the point if I can't sace people... Jack and Dean have parallels in disregard which doesn't surprise me because I suspect both may need to work together to defeat AU Michael, Dean being the Seasoned warrior and strategist whom Jack looks up to for approval.

I am afraid Dean is getting his solo mission as I think it is his season to work out his tragic flaw which I think will result in a despondent and reckless self sacrifice endgame maneuver giving us Dean!Michael.  

Sam too as it appears he has been inspired to seek revenge.  Yehaw.

But nice commentary on the hotel room, in particular the painting.

Coin flip... fate... Billie talking about choices...

Lots of unreliable narrators this season and masks and hidden/masked identities.

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I totally agree it was Gabriel's grace and should be given back to him to help him recover.  That being said, however, shouldn't that be something that Sam should have mentioned to Dean?  "I should just let you know that 30 seconds after you step into that rift--you know, the one that's going to close in 24 hours--I'm going to give the rest of the grace back to Gabriel, essentially stranding you in the AW if you can't get back to the rift in time.  So, have you checked the battery in your watch lately?"

Sam seemed to assume Gabriel would give them more grace, in case Sam needed to go to Dean's rescue.  Sammy, you know that they say about "when you assume," right?  (And why the heck would Sam assume Gabriel would help them when he not only knows that Gabriel ditched the entire world back in season 5 (and again when Auntie Amara showed up) and has shown that he cares only for himself?)

Hmmm... I did not think of that.  Personally it was wrong of them to use it to open the rift.  It show Dean's desperation.  He is.  Sam should have known better.  It is not theirs to use.  

But once Dean went through then yes Sam should have put that remaining vial under lock and key.  

But you know what....

Dean has mental illness... He is depressed.

Sam has mental illness... PTSD

Cas is... off for lack of a better word... something will come of rhat entity on the empty ... there will be some,twist.

I spec'd a while back that this Apocalypse would be dark because TFW had lost its center, Dean, and Sam and Cas were not quite right themselves and would not be able to hold it all together.

This is looking spot on.

Things may fall apart over there.

Hopefully it will be more interesting than this week.  Maybe Gabriel wears his best red shirt.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/28/2018 at 2:34 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

On rewatch, I wonder if Dabb lost a bet, or Rich has something on him, because that was one self-indulgent piece of crap as far as direction goes. Wow.

Didn't he have a stroke.  Part of goodwill and solidarity perhaps.   3 salaries for that episode.

plus a big piece in variety pimping it.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Didn't he have a stroke.  Part of goodwill and solidarity perhaps.   3 salaries for that episode.

plus a big piece in variety pimping it.

It was Rob Benedict that had the stroke.

It was one thing to indulge in his penchant for, errm,  homage with Stuck in the Middle, but this one was just self-indulgent and self-glorifying. I'm embarrassed for him.

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It was Rob Benedict that had the stroke.

It was one thing to indulge in his penchant for, errm,  homage with Stuck in the Middle, but this one was just self-indulgent and self-glorifying. I'm embarrassed for him.

Ohh.. my bad.  Okay.

Well....  what does he have on Singer.  They used to have access to some pretty good directors.

For instance the Baby episode was extremely well directed.

Stuck in the Middle.... was that the Ramiel episode... another really really reaally bad Tatentino rip off... He needs to go to film school.  Seriously or work in a video store for eons,like Tatentino did and watch the original grindhouse and John Woo and  chopsooey that Tarentino liberally stole from... likeTarentino did. 

Now Tatentino does have his moments of original glory where he marries cinematic appropriation to music to dialogue and hits gold.  Seriously he should have homaged the Stuck in the Middle With you from Reservoir Dogs.  That was an unforgettable sequence.

Instead it was a milquetoast pastiche of Taretino and El Mariachi.

So bad.  Worse than the Ramiel episode by far.  That had Crowley.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[AwesomO4000]

15 hours ago, cavelupum said:

Longtime lurker, first-time poster. I hope nobody minds if I just jump right in with my thoughts on the most recent episode in lieu of a formal introduction. :)

Welcome, @cavelupum.

13 hours ago, Res said:

I checked the CW and their episodes don't go that far back, unfortunately. So far, I've only seen them on amazon for a price that I'm not really willing to pay yet.

Do you have on demand? When the episode comes back in rerun, it should be there. They might even bring it back to the CW site then.

[Castiels Cat]

15 hours ago, belbar said:

His taking the MOC wasn't heroic itself. It was the result of his frame of mind at the moment. He explained himself on the bridge when he parted ways with Sam. He thought that because of what happened with Gadreel, Sam and Kevin he destroyed everything that he touched (or something like that). Crowley, like usual, made the most of the situation and conned him into taking the MOC for his own benefit (because Abbadon was a real threat to him) offering it as a way of getting rid of Abbadon. Remember that they had resurrected Abbadon for one ot the tests for the trials, and she had escaped, so it was unfinished business for Dean. He was desperate, at the bottom in his selfsteem and rushed into it withouth even asking for the consequences. He was a wounded animal reacting not thinking. Some call it reckless, and I don't disagree but I call it desperate.

As for Chuck and his speech it probably made him look at himself in a different way, but given who he is, it only means a feeling of a bigger responsability and a heavier burden. Once the steem and sense of selworth of someone is shot to hell rebuild it won't be easy and certainly not by a 30 seconds speech no matter who it comes from.

They're now back to season 5 crisis (as per Dean own words), he's facing again his worst nightmare and is reverting to what was imprinted in him from the beginning. What he was taught from the start and the only thing he's ever known. It's human nature. I don't see it so crazy (not smart ok, but that's a different point).

Well he wanted to hurt himself sure but he also knew it was the only way to kill Abbadon... two birds...

[belbar]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Well he wanted to hurt himself sure but he also knew it was the only way to kill Abbadon... two birds...

You seem to think that Dean has a death wish and that he's suicidal in general terms. But I don't see that. I think that he's had very low moments when has been reckless in some of his actions, and the lower he's the less carefully he behaves. I'm also perfectly aware that his low steem makes him see himself as expendable in some instances. But that doesn't automatically translate into an active suicidal behaviour. YMMV

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, belbar said:

You seem to think that Dean has a death wish and that he's suicidal in general terms. But I don't see that. I think that he's had very low moments when has been reckless in some of his actions, and the lower he's the less carefully he behaves. I'm also perfectly aware that his low steem makes him see himself as expendable in some instances. But that doesn't automatically translate into an active suicidal behaviour. YMMV

Taking my response to the spoilers thread

[Jonesy]

Not quite as good as last episode which I loved but still very good--give it a 8 out of 10.  Speight did strong double duty with fun stylish direction and strong acting.  Strong Gabriel episode.   I know Dean and Sam were not front and center every moment but they were fine in this episode and had that nice emotional moment at the end.  Love Jack and he was touching seeing the limits of his power.   Mary is not my favorite and hasn't been a perfect mother for the boys but still she had some good moments with Jack.

 

PS--about Sam and Gabriel...they do look oddly similar facially, I've recently noticed. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Jakes

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, belbar said:

You seem to think that Dean has a death wish and that he's suicidal in general terms. But I don't see that. I think that he's had very low moments when has been reckless in some of his actions, and the lower he's the less carefully he behaves. I'm also perfectly aware that his low steem makes him see himself as expendable in some instances. But that doesn't automatically translate into an active suicidal behaviour. YMMV

He literally committed suicide in Advanced Thanotology.and admitted he expected it to be a one way trip.

He carries the syringe in his kit as a ready option now.  When did tbis hspoen.

Dean is now a guy ready to kill himself.

Previously his self sacrifice was mood driven yes but it was always born out of desperation to save others and/or get a win when triggered by the close of family through death or impending death... and tinged with the desire to hurt himself when the loss of family is triggered by alienation of affections as in the MoC arc.

This time is different.  Dean has always borne the weight of the world on his shoulders.  In season 11 God said guess what, the weight of the world is on your shoulders... and then he left.

And then Dean failed to keep his family safe and there is another Apocalypse and Lucifer is out and about and Sam isn't right, Cas isn't right... and he is just broken.  

So yeah. I think Dean is in a state we have never seen him in before.  I mean yeah the guy killed himself, flat out admitted to death thst he expected it to be final and Death told us what she saw.  We should all be very nervous about what Dean might do.

They have dealt with a house full of ghosts before without resorting to suicide. 

[belbar]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

He literally committed suicide in Advanced Thanotology.and admitted he expected it to be a one way trip.

He carries the syringe in his kit as a ready option now.  When did tbis hspoen.

Dean is now a guy ready to kill himself.

Previously his self sacrifice was mood driven yes but it was always born out of desperation to save others and/or get a win when triggered by the close of family through death or impending death... and tinged with the desire to hurt himself when the loss of family is triggered by alienation of affections as in the MoC arc.

This time is different.  Dean has always borne the weight of the world on his shoulders.  In season 11 God said guess what, the weight of the world is on your shoulders... and then he left.

And then Dean failed to keep his family safe and there is another Apocalypse and Lucifer is out and about and Sam isn't right, Cas isn't right... and he is just broken.  

So yeah. I think Dean is in a state we have never seen him in before.  I mean yeah the guy killed himself, flat out admitted to death thst he expected it to be final and Death told us what she saw.  We should all be very nervous about what Dean might do.

They have dealt with a house full of ghosts before without resorting to suicide. 

yes and no.

I agree that he's broken, worn out and facing again his worst nightmare. Your reading about his state of mind is right in my opinion in almost everything, except that in Advanced Thanotology he used the injection but provided Sam with the antidote. He was willing to risk death, not committing suicide. He intended to come back. In fact once he had the information he wanted he returned to where Sam was with his body and was chanting himself to react to the antidote. Then Billie appeared and once he saw that she was Death he assumed that his trip was in fact just one way. And yes, he wasn't against it. He accepted it and even admitted that he wanted to die. That was what was going on with him at that moment. But even that it's different to actively act on it. That last step between wishing/accepting  death and  actively commit suicide is a big one. And since then there has been a big difference. Cas is back and Jack and his mother are alive and depending on him to be saved. For him that's the most important thing right now. He has a purpose and a mission. That's why he might act recklessly to save them. But won't willingly commit suicide. It's all I'm saying. He certainly is at the edge. But hasn't taken the leap. IMO at least.

Edited May 1, 2018 by belbar

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, belbar said:

yes and no.

I agree that he's broken, worn out and facing again his worst nightmare. Your reading about his state of mind is right in my opinion in almost everything, except that in Advanced Thanotology he used the injection but provided Sam with the antidote. He was willing to risk death, not committing suicide. He intended to come back. In fact once he had the information he wanted he returned to where Sam was with his body and was chanting himself to react to the antidote. Then Billie appeared and once he saw that she was Death he assumed that his trip was in fact just one way. And yes, he wasn't against it. He accepted it and even admitted that he wanted to die. That was what was going on with him at that moment. But even that it's different to actively act on it. That last step between wishing/accepting  death and  actively commit suicide is a big one. And since then there has been a big difference. Cas is back and Jack and his mother are alive and depending on him to be saved. For him that's the most important thing right now. He has a purpose and a mission. That's why he might act recklessly to save them. But won't willingly commit suicide. It's all I'm saying. He certainly is at the edge. But hasn't taken the leap. IMO at least.

Very fine line.  This move was extremely risky as I recall even under a doctor's supervision.  It was a suicide move in season 6 even when he planned it to the nth degree.  At the time he had no other option and we know Dean will always risk himself to save family.

What happened in Advance Thanatology...  no comparison.  He did not need to do that.  They had dealt with haunted houses full of angry spirits before.  He immediately  committed suicide. It was his first option. Numero Uno.

[ILoveReading]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

What happened in Advance Thanatology...  no comparison.  He did not need to do that.  They had dealt with haunted houses full of angry spirits before.  He immediately  committed suicide. It was his first option. Numero Uno.

I think the situation in AT was different.   I haven't had a chance to rewatch, but IIRC, there was a malevolent spirit who was trapping the ghosts and preventing them from moving on.   Dean promised the kid he would free his spirit which means he didn't want to just salt and burn.  He went into the veil to help the ghosts.  I see it more as Death Takes a Holiday situation.

While I think Dean's just about at the end of his rope and he'd be okay with dying, I don't think he's suicidal in the sense that he's actively looking to end his life.  He's been more reckless lately, but that's Dean.  He feels the need to protect Sam and if he has to die, so be it. 

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I think the situation in AT was different.   I haven't had a chance to rewatch, but IIRC, there was a malevolent spirit who was trapping the ghosts and preventing them from moving on.   Dean promised the kid he would free his spirit which means he didn't want to just salt and burn.  He went into the veil to help the ghosts.  I see it more as Death Takes a Holiday situation.

While I think Dean's just about at the end of his rope and he'd be okay with dying, I don't think he's suicidal in the sense that he's actively looking to end his life.  He's been more reckless lately, but that's Dean.  He feels the need to protect Sam and if he has to die, so be it. 

Maybe. Still pretty scary.  Hadn't they already killed the malevolent spirit. 

They have dealt with ghosts trapped by a malevolent spirit before and Dean did not kill themself. It was a Gamble episode I believe.  I think killing said malevolent spirit released the other spirits. 

Mental illness is definitely a theme this season.  It is infecting everyone.  Hell even Crowley committed suicide and Rowena is depressed  over Crowley's death and suffering PTSD.

[MysteryGuest]

I personally do not see Dean as suicidal.  He's obviously depressed and frustrated, and his sense of self-worth seems to be at a low point, but I don't think he'd ever decide to just end it.  In Advanced Thanatology, he was focused entirely on helping that young boy, but he did take the time to explain to Sam just how the antidote worked, so his plan was to be brought back.  I feel it was the same way he "committed suicide" in Red Meat.  He didn't intend to stay dead, and gave the young woman instructions for the doctor on how to revive him, so again, he was planning to survive.  In both instances, once he was confronted by Billy, he was prepared to die to get what he wanted, but he wasn't hoping for death.  To me, that's the difference.  I think both he and Sam are always prepared for death, at this point, but I wouldn't consider either one of them suicidal.  

I'm ready for an upswing of some sort for both of them.  Watching them be this depressed is depressing.  They need a win, and hopefully, if they can at least make contact with Mary and Jack, that will help both of them.  Even if Mary opts to stay in the AU, I don't want the writers to make her decision another burden for Sam and Dean.  

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

ght back.  I feel it was the same way he "committed suicide" in Red Meat.  He didn't intend to stay dead, and gave the young woman instructions for the doctor on how to revive him, so again, he was planning to survive.  I

I agree on that part. I do think he intended to die by werewolf earlier, though. The thing is that in AT, there was no real rush for Dean to make that leap. They already killed the ghost. Dean wanted to find out what happened to the kids. They were in the veil so IMO there wasn't an IMMEDIATE need for Dean to kill himself to find them. 

I don't know that Dean is suicidal as in immediately wants to die. I do think he has some suicidal ideation meaning occasional thoughts, reckless disregard for himself which doesn't mean he's actively seeking to kill himself. But that he's felt worthless and useless. I do wonder why he went after Loki alone.  That needs some more splainin'

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I do think he intended to die by werewolf earlier, though.

I agree that in the moment, he just wanted to exact revenge on the werewolves who killed Sam, regardless of his chances of survival.  He was going to stay and fight until the end.  I also think he intended to die when he was breathing in the Darkness mist or gas or whatever the hell that poison fog was.  He thought everyone was dying, including Sam, and he seemed almost desperate to go with them.  I think partly to not be left alone and partly to avoid whatever Amara had in store for him.  

It's not that I can't understand why he'd be depressed, or why Sam would be depressed, it's just that it's not fun to watch.  Especially when we know that there's really not going to be an end for them anytime soon.  Or that the end we'll get is the death of one or both of them, which I don't want to watch.  

[SueB]

I FINALLY got in my rewatch (big weekend, lots of fun, no time to savor the episode).

Second watch pickups/thoughts:
- I liked it better the second time around.  And it makes me think that when they make the show, they look at it so many times, that perhaps they miss some of the 'first impression' potential issues. 

What took me "out" of the story the first time:  The Tarantino homage Part 2.  Just today "Stuck in the Middle With You" was on TNT Rewatch.  And I imediately stopped what I was doing and watched it start to finish.  I still think that S12 episode is one of my series favorites.  Every beat worked IMO.  But to go for a "Kill Bill" homage, while actually contextually fitting, was diminished because they already did the Tarantino bit last year.  

The Kill Bill homage: The concept was okay - single 'wronged' man goes after former compatriots who betrayed him (Loki's sons) and their leader (Loki).  But The Bride was a much more sympathetic figure and the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad was MUCH more competent.  A wounded Gabriel was able to kill them relatively easily.  Plus Gabriel had help.  So, the execution just didn't live up to the concept IMO.  If this had been the ONLY Tarantino homage done by Supernatural, I still think it was too superficial to really give a good payoff.  The quirky music does fit Gabriel's vibe but not enough to make the who homage really successful.  Having said all this, the second time through, I was able to focus more on the storyline and less on the style and thus liked the episode more. 

 That's gonna leave a mark:  Loki's final taunts of Gabriel were pretty vicious.  Not that they were 100% accurate - but the taunts drew out how Gabriel sees himself and pummelled the damaged archangle with that viewpoint.  Gabriel did NOT look satisfied at the end.  Not remotely.  I'm not sure if the desire to shed that view of himself if going to result in a positive change or cause him to be reckless.  

Blaming Gabriel for Odin's death was weaksauce: Dean was right, Lucifer killed Odin and Gabriel's decision to get involved had nothing to do with it.  They should have just stuck with the betting on a demon victory and hedging their bet argument.

Dean is so DONE and he just wants this over: As he said at the end, the brothers are LOOKING for the Apocalypse.  They even showed scenes from Stull cemetary in the "THEN" sequence.  Dean has some serious scar tissue from the last time they faced the Apocalypse.  And it never really got dealt with.  When he got Sam back he figured out something was wrong with Sam and we went into the Soulless Sam arc.  Yes, the Dean/Lisa interactions told us how much of a mess Dean was.  But as they are gearing up for yet another Apocalypse, with the some of the same players, Dean is apparently got a very bad sense of deja vu going.  And he's not going to let his brother jump in a hole again.  He did that once and it nearly ended him.  Sam's speech about dying together was a valiant attempt at solidarity but Dean's face was 'not if I die first!'.  He's definitely going to pre-emptive strike on this go 'round. 

Jack's Hard Lesson: Alex does a great job of speaking volumes with just a look.  He is so thrilled to be doing "good" and this set-back is hitting him hard.  Thank goodness he didn't lose Mary.  I think he would have gone Vader dark-side if that happened.  But even though his eagerness put them in harms way, I honestly think the choice to go check out Michael's lair is EXACTLY what Sam and Dean would have done.  He's following their playbook. Mary provided the essential "it could be a trap" warning, but the boys would have gone anyway.  That's where the intel is at.  Jack's only real mistake is thinking he can protect everyone.  He can't.  So I'm a little concerned that he has set himself an impossible standard (protect everyone) and will be reckless to make that happen.

Kevin's Death hurt - again:  Even though we barely knew AU Kevin, Osric did a good job of making us see his confusion and despair.  He's still basically a good kid who got sucked into a position he didn't want and was ultimately killed because of it.  It appears to suck to be Kevin Tran in ANY universe.  Chuck owes him a nice Heaven. 

"Even if you win, you lose." phrase - while offensive from a BTS perspective (twisting the line Mark Shepard wrote as his exit line) - is an interesting concept.  What does Michael MEAN by that?  If the resistance "wins" because Michael & company leave, do they actually "lose" because there are no resources to maintain the world?  And what about Heaven?  If Michael is actively killing humans, what kind of a heaven is he running in the AU?  I need to ponder this phrase on it's own merits -- there's something besides spite behind that line.

Nice shoutouts:
- Meta: Kazoo playing - nice con shoutout
- Waiting for Bobby - puts Bobby as the leader of the resistance, even with Jack having great success
- Magic Fingers bed

Bottom Line for the TL; DR: It was a serviceable episode that put the pieces in place, but the Tarantino homage redux took me out of the episode.  The vibe screamed "Look at me! I'm Richard Speight Jr! and that was just not cool.  Several character moments were both well done and have me anxious for what lies ahead. Will I watch it again? Yes, but it's not on the "stop what you are doing and just watch" list.  

[Castiels Cat]

45 minutes ago, SueB said:

I FINALLY got in my rewatch (big weekend, lots of fun, no time to savor the episode).

Second watch pickups/thoughts:
- I liked it better the second time around.  And it makes me think that when they make the show, they look at it so many times, that perhaps they miss some of the 'first impression' potential issues. 

What took me "out" of the story the first time:  The Tarantino homage Part 2.  Just today "Stuck in the Middle With You" was on TNT Rewatch.  And I imediately stopped what I was doing and watched it start to finish.  I still think that S12 episode is one of my series favorites.  Every beat worked IMO.  But to go for a "Kill Bill" homage, while actually contextually fitting, was diminished because they already did the Tarantino bit last year.  

The Kill Bill homage: The concept was okay - single 'wronged' man goes after former compatriots who betrayed him (Loki's sons) and their leader (Loki).  But The Bride was a much more sympathetic figure and the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad was MUCH more competent.  A wounded Gabriel was able to kill them relatively easily.  Plus Gabriel had help.  So, the execution just didn't live up to the concept IMO.  If this had been the ONLY Tarantino homage done by Supernatural, I still think it was too superficial to really give a good payoff.  The quirky music does fit Gabriel's vibe but not enough to make the who homage really successful.  Having said all this, the second time through, I was able to focus more on the storyline and less on the style and thus liked the episode more. 

 That's gonna leave a mark:  Loki's final taunts of Gabriel were pretty vicious.  Not that they were 100% accurate - but the taunts drew out how Gabriel sees himself and pummelled the damaged archangle with that viewpoint.  Gabriel did NOT look satisfied at the end.  Not remotely.  I'm not sure if the desire to shed that view of himself if going to result in a positive change or cause him to be reckless.  

Blaming Gabriel for Odin's death was weaksauce: Dean was right, Lucifer killed Odin and Gabriel's decision to get involved had nothing to do with it.  They should have just stuck with the betting on a demon victory and hedging their bet argument.

Dean is so DONE and he just wants this over: As he said at the end, the brothers are LOOKING for the Apocalypse.  They even showed scenes from Stull cemetary in the "THEN" sequence.  Dean has some serious scar tissue from the last time they faced the Apocalypse.  And it never really got dealt with.  When he got Sam back he figured out something was wrong with Sam and we went into the Soulless Sam arc.  Yes, the Dean/Lisa interactions told us how much of a mess Dean was.  But as they are gearing up for yet another Apocalypse, with the some of the same players, Dean is apparently got a very bad sense of deja vu going.  And he's not going to let his brother jump in a hole again.  He did that once and it nearly ended him.  Sam's speech about dying together was a valiant attempt at solidarity but Dean's face was 'not if I die first!'.  He's definitely going to pre-emptive strike on this go 'round. 

Jack's Hard Lesson: Alex does a great job of speaking volumes with just a look.  He is so thrilled to be doing "good" and this set-back is hitting him hard.  Thank goodness he didn't lose Mary.  I think he would have gone Vader dark-side if that happened.  But even though his eagerness put them in harms way, I honestly think the choice to go check out Michael's lair is EXACTLY what Sam and Dean would have done.  He's following their playbook. Mary provided the essential "it could be a trap" warning, but the boys would have gone anyway.  That's where the intel is at.  Jack's only real mistake is thinking he can protect everyone.  He can't.  So I'm a little concerned that he has set himself an impossible standard (protect everyone) and will be reckless to make that happen.

Kevin's Death hurt - again:  Even though we barely knew AU Kevin, Osric did a good job of making us see his confusion and despair.  He's still basically a good kid who got sucked into a position he didn't want and was ultimately killed because of it.  It appears to suck to be Kevin Tran in ANY universe.  Chuck owes him a nice Heaven. 

"Even if you win, you lose." phrase - while offensive from a BTS perspective (twisting the line Mark Shepard wrote as his exit line) - is an interesting concept.  What does Michael MEAN by that?  If the resistance "wins" because Michael & company leave, do they actually "lose" because there are no resources to maintain the world?  And what about Heaven?  If Michael is actively killing humans, what kind of a heaven is he running in the AU?  I need to ponder this phrase on it's own merits -- there's something besides spite behind that line.

Nice shoutouts:
- Meta: Kazoo playing - nice con shoutout
- Waiting for Bobby - puts Bobby as the leader of the resistance, even with Jack having great success
- Magic Fingers bed

Bottom Line for the TL; DR: It was a serviceable episode that put the pieces in place, but the Tarantino homage redux took me out of the episode.  The vibe screamed "Look at me! I'm Richard Speight Jr! and that was just not cool.  Several character moments were both well done and have me anxious for what lies ahead. Will I watch it again? Yes, but it's not on the "stop what you are doing and just watch" list.  

Nice analysis.  I am totally down with the references to still. I see them too as,far as Dean's mental state and perhaps even in terms of where the mytharc is going if tbis is fTes attempt to reset things to what should have been, why has to be.

Even when I loose I win.  Could jus t be nah nah nah you sucker... y ou fell for my trick and your people die. Could be you won tbis battle for this world but I am going to wage war on a shiny new one.

This episode was the first time I  realized rhat Jack and Dean are mirrored.  Similar storylines... Dean too believes he has to protect everyone.  Dean however often internalized his losses until he cannot.  Dean dud not have a nurturing support group like Jack has had.  Dean has the maturity, preternatural street smarts and is a master strategist. All thinks Jack currently lacks. Definitely strong parallels.  Not surprising if Dean/Dean!Michael is meant to pucjnuo the fight. 

And  Yes... Jack can still go dark.

As for the Tarentino homage... it was so weak I nearly missed it and it lacked all of the lovey Asian martial arts fushion of Kill Bill 1 and 2. I guess that was the point of the sticks. Meh.

Could have used some J-pop at least. 

Stuck in the Middle was better. I did not much care for the direction. It felt labored at times. And the flashbacks were unnecessary.  

Be smart in one's homage. Tatentino is.

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I agree that in the moment, he just wanted to exact revenge on the werewolves who killed Sam, regardless of his chances of survival.  He was going to stay and fight until the end.  I also think he intended to die when he was breathing in the Darkness mist or gas or whatever the hell that poison fog was.  He thought everyone was dying, including Sam, and he seemed almost desperate to go with them.  I think partly to not be left alone and partly to avoid whatever Amara had in store for him.  

It's not that I can't understand why he'd be depressed, or why Sam would be depressed, it's just that it's not fun to watch.  Especially when we know that there's really not going to be an end for them anytime soon.  Or that the end we'll get is the death of one or both of them, which I don't want to watch.  

Ah. Yes.  I mentally tuned out Red Meat and Dabbish season 11... this was after he kissed a girl knowing he could die and Sam expressed Dean's tendency towards self sacrifice in text in Love Hurts.  I consider this the writers establishing Dean's tragic flaw.

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I personally do not see Dean as suicidal.  He's obviously depressed and frustrated, and his sense of self-worth seems to be at a low point, but I don't think he'd ever decide to just end it.  In Advanced Thanatology, he was focused entirely on helping that young boy, but he did take the time to explain to Sam just how the antidote worked, so his plan was to be brought back.  I feel it was the same way he "committed suicide" in Red Meat.  He didn't intend to stay dead, and gave the young woman instructions for the doctor on how to revive him, so again, he was planning to survive.  In both instances, once he was confronted by Billy, he was prepared to die to get what he wanted, but he wasn't hoping for death.  To me, that's the difference.  I think both he and Sam are always prepared for death, at this point, but I wouldn't consider either one of them suicidal.  

I'm ready for an upswing of some sort for both of them.  Watching them be this depressed is depressing.  They need a win, and hopefully, if they can at least make contact with Mary and Jack, that will help both of them.  Even if Mary opts to stay in the AU, I don't want the writers to make her decision another burden for Sam and Dean.  

This is not normal behavior nor sound judgement.

[MysteryGuest]

17 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

This is not normal behavior nor sound judgement.

It absolutely isn't, but then they don't lead anything even resembling a "normal" life.  It's difficult to imagine what it must be like to literally have the weight of the world on your shoulders.  I can't fathom it.  So I try not to compare Sam and Dean's behavior with that of everyday people.  They aren't like us.  They've literally died multiple times, spent time in hell and spoken with God.  I figure however they're feeling or whatever impulsive decisions they may make along the way are justified, simply because of the shit show of a life they lead.

Edited May 2, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

It absolutely isn't, but then they don't lead anything even resembling a "normal" life.  It's difficult to imagine what it must be like to literally have the weight of the world on your shoulders.  I can't fathom it.  So I try not to compare Sam and Dean's behavior with that of everyday people.  They aren't like us.  They've literally died multiple times, spent time in hell and spoken with God.  I figure however they're feeling or whatever impulsive decisions they may make along the way are justified, simply because of the shit show of a life they lead.

Sam is not carrying around a kit with a death syringe in it and yes there is the other syringe but even administered by a doctor it is extremely high risk. This was explained in season 6 and in season 6 there was backstory. Sam was a soulless killing machine and Dean was seriously considering putting him down if he could not fix.  The stakes were very high and of course Dean was going to risk his life for Sam.  Then Dean was taking a calculated risk and he had made the best preparations that he could to survive.

This scenario was nothing like that.

Sam was gobsmacked.  Death was surprised enough to comment.  The audience was supposed to be gobsmacked too.  

Furthermore, the episode continued Dean's intriguing relationship with Death.  Yes his character literally has a relationship with Death.  However metaphorically when characters "dance with death" the phrase most often used it refers to a death wish typically defined as engaging in risky behavior.

Now hunting is risky and Dean has pushed the envelop on risky behavior at times depending on his mood.  He has been doing it more frequently in the last few seasons and  he has done it several times this season.  

But when you carry around a syringe in your kit just in case... when you have told by the doctor that his success rate was almost 75% under medical conditions.  And you just jab  yourself after handing your brother the syringe with almost no prep .. I don't think he really wanted to come back. And Billie yells him that she sees that HE WANTS TO DIE. And Dean says in response I GUESS I MADE MY CHOICE.  And then she says it is not his time, he is too important, he has work to do. DEAN ADMITS HE WANTED TO DIE.  

And he could not inject himself any quicker if he tried.

So... As excited as,I am for Dean!Michael I am a bit nervous too. Because I think Dabb has a bit of a graphic novel background and they can go dark with their storylines and this is dark.  

And as I noted elsewhere every character is dealing with mental health issues. Every single one, especially drunk playground angel.

And this all in an episode called Advanced Thanatology; from Wiki...

"Thanatology is the scientific study of death. It investigates the mechanisms and forensic aspects of death, such as bodily changes that accompany death and the post-mortem period, as well as wider psychological and social aspects related to death. It is primarily an interdisciplinary study offered as a course of study at numerous colleges and universities."

[MysteryGuest]

17 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

But when you carry around a syringe in your kit just in case... when you have told by the doctor that his success rate was almost 75% under medical conditions.  And you just jab  yourself after handing your brother the syringe with almost no prep .. I don't think he really wanted to come back. And Billie yells him that she sees that HE WANTS TO DIE. And Dean says in response I GUESS I MADE MY CHOICE.  And then she says it is not his time, he is too important, he has work to do. DEAN ADMITS HE WANTED TO DIE.  

I still don't think he was thinking "hey, here's a good opportunity for me to kill myself".  That doesn't mean that he wasn't the lowest we've ever seen him, or that he wasn't totally resigned, and almost welcoming to the fact that Death wasn't going to send him back.  Over the years, he's admitted being tired of it all, but I don't put that in the same category as someone who is truly suicidal.  But we can agree to disagree on this one.

[millennium]

What a terrible episode.   It was a chore to watch.   I don't know who Speight is, and I don't care, but the whole episode reeked of vanity piece.   

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

What a terrible episode.   It was a chore to watch.   I don't know who Speight is, and I don't care, but the whole episode reeked of vanity piece.   

While I don't disagree (like, at all) with how terrible the direction was, I'm not sure how anyone could not know who Richard Speight Jr. is in relation to SPN. Gabriel? The Trickster? He was part of one of the most famous episodes of all (Mystery Spot), and a goodly part of the last half of S5.

[millennium]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

While I don't disagree (like, at all) with how terrible the direction was, I'm not sure how anyone could not know who Richard Speight Jr. is in relation to SPN. Gabriel? The Trickster? He was part of one of the most famous episodes of all (Mystery Spot), and a goodly part of the last half of S5.

I'm one of those people who watches a show like Supernatural, then forgets the episode , or the details all kind of blur into one giant episode.   If my life depended on it, I couldn't tell you what happened in which season, or who all the Rubies were (one was Katy Cassidy, I think), or what year the show became ruined with the Angel war, etc.   I tend to remember only the superlatives -- the very good (Fan Fiction) and the very bad (any episode featuring Leviathans, Mitch Pileggi, or people who turn into dogs).   So to me Richard Speight is just a face, and Gabriel is just another angel cluttering up an episode.

Edited May 8, 2018 by millennium

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, millennium said:

I'm one of those people who watches a show like Supernatural, then forgets the episode , or the details all kind of blur into one giant episode.   If my life depended on it, I couldn't tell you what happened in which season, or who all the Rubies were (one was Katy Cassidy, I think), or what year the show became ruined with the Angel war, etc.   I tend to remember only the superlatives -- the very good (Fan Fiction) and the very bad (any episode featuring Leviathans, Mitch Pileggi, or people who turn into dogs).   So to me Richard Speight is just a face, and Gabriel is just another angel cluttering up an episode.

Thanks. That explains it. :)

[rue721]

Oh no, not AGAIN, Kevin! Osric did an amazing job. But I'm pissed that he's dead. AGAIN. I've liked Kevin since his introduction and was delighted to see him back. I guess it was a good idea to have him go out like this, from an emotional manipulation standpoint, because I could really empathize with Jack's disgust/fear/anger over watching Kevin die -- I probably wouldn't have felt so strongly if it had just been a red shirt who'd done it. But still! KEVIN! Come back again somehow, please?!

On 4/27/2018 at 8:18 AM, Affogato said:

Mary seems to like being Jacks mentor. I think that’s what she missed with the adult Dean and Sam. 

I think that the idea is supposed to be that Mary needs a son and Jack needs a mother, and so they've bonded because of the striking compatibility of the massive black holes of need in their souls. And in theory, I can get behind that, in the way that I could more-or-less get behind Dean and Bobby's similar kind of pseudo- and semi-nonsensical parent/child relationship. In a way, I think the obvious "fakeness" of the scenario that two adults who are relative strangers to each other could strike up a genuine parent/child relationship at the drop of a hat is exactly what sells the relationship as fulfilling genuine emotional needs for the characters in it and is what makes it seem at least kinda believable. But in Mary/Jack's case, the actors aren't really selling the relationship, or either character's need/desire for it? I dunno, for some reason, it's not quite working for me.

This is probably an UO, but I like both Mary and Jack and would be on-board for this kind of relationship between them as a tertiary storyline, but I need to see the need or vulnerability that is driving each of them to create it. This feels too straight-foward and simplistic. Even in comparison with the father/son thing that Bobby and Dean had going on. Or the pseudo brothers thing between Sam, Dean and Adam. I feel like the show could be digging a little deeper and being more interesting there.

Although, given the way she couldn't open herself up to Sam and Dean last season despite them desperately wanting her to, I do think it's funny seeing Mary *want* to be more of a mom to Jack and Jack kind of giving off a vibe of "I've got a mom, no worries, but thanks anyway."

On 4/27/2018 at 9:54 AM, ahrtee said:

I always *sort-of* liked Gabriel before this season.  He was an interesting character--smart and funny and had a point to what he did (to the boys, anyway).  He was amoral, but Dean managed to reach him a time or two.  And I think he had his arc and had no real interest in seeing him again.

Yeah, I liked the Trickster way back when. But the character is overplayed by now and the show apparently doesn't know what to do with him. So let's just leave him be for a while! Of all the characters to continually resurrect, why does it have to be this spineless and boring one?

I mean, all this lavish attention paid to Gabriel, when there hasn't even been a single episode of "Mrs. Tran & Son, Hunters at Large" filmed, too! (That's my current favorite idea for a spinoff. Yeah yeah would never happen. But I love the Tran family).

On 4/29/2018 at 1:31 PM, annspal said:

Then, I looked for in-show explanations for the loops, echoes, repeats, and mirrors. They can be found from the earliest days. Take me home. I can never go home. (I now think there was no accident about choosing the Woman in White as the very first story to tell.) The premise of the show, urban legends, depends on storytelling and the existence of alternate versions of what is true.

Very interesting point!

On 5/2/2018 at 12:13 AM, SueB said:

"Even if you win, you lose." phrase - while offensive from a BTS perspective (twisting the line Mark Shepard wrote as his exit line) - is an interesting concept.  What does Michael MEAN by that?

This is an UO, I'm sure, but I'm glad they changed the line. Saying "even when I lose, I win" while committing suicide in vain is disturbing in all the wrong ways and was a terrible idea for a slogan in the first place, IMO. "Even when you win, you lose" makes a ton more sense in that context (or the context of Kevin killing himself so tragically). I don't have a bone to pick with Mark Sheppard at all, but I just find that awful line a bizarre hill for him to choose to die on.

I also think that by forcing Kevin to say that, Michael was just trying to communicate that Jack thinks he's winning winning winning but he's all the while just digging himself deeper into a hole. Michael probably is referring to the fact that Jack is getting so confident while essentially just focusing in on killing patsies and feints, while letting Michael essentially carry out his plans unmolested. That's my unspoiled-for-the-rest of the season view, anyway!