S13.E18: Bring 'em Back Alive

[Katy M]

53 minutes ago, devlin said:

You have to admit that it is impressive how willing Sam is to form relationships with people who have either threatened dean with harm, have tried to kill him or in gabe’s case have killed him many times, but I guess Sam has also tried to kill his brother so maybe it is a bonding experience.

Dean bonded with Cole and Crowley. For that matter Cas broke Sam's wall.

[catrox14]

56 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Maybe, just maybe, Sam said "I" because his whole speech was to try to draw a parallel between himself and Gabriel with the whole not feeling like a part of his family and then realizing that his family needed him. So he said "I" because of that reason and not to slight Dean. 

That doesn't really explain his "I save the world...a lot" in Scoobynatural when he was talking to Velma and Dean was actually hunting with him and in that haunted mansion. Remember when Sam said last season that twice is a pattern...Just sayin'...there is something at play here.

[DeeDee79]

42 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Dean bonded with Cole

Well, Dean didn't hold it against Cole for trying to kill him when he was human again and realized why he was doing it. I wouldn't say that they "bonded" but they put aside their differences and both brothers worked with him.

42 minutes ago, Katy M said:

For that matter Cas broke Sam's wall.

Yes, Dean eventually forgave him for that but considering the fact that he's forgiven Cas for the things that he's done to hurt him as well it's not really shocking. Gabriel on the other hand gleefully killed Dean and admitted that he enjoyed doing so. I wouldn't compare his actions with anything that Cas has done.

Edited April 14, 2018 by DeeDee79

[DeeDee79]

22 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I really don't think Dean was mad at Sam and Cas so much as he was just mad, period. Time will tell, I guess.

I agree. If anything he just seemed extremely frustrated and upset with all of the obstacles that they keep getting hit with every time they think that they're getting close. 

[DeeDee79]

19 hours ago, SueB said:

Bad - Gabriel stiffing them.  I just don't like it.  Doesn't make it a normal part of the storyline but I'm pissed at him.  He IS a DICK.  The thing he claims to hate.  Gabriel needs to show humilty and thankfulness to TFW.  If he skates thru this Apocalypse-like season without getting his head on straight, I'll be pissed.  I had sympathy for his torture but he was too smug at the end.

Yes! I've never understood fandom's love of Gabriel but I thought that his redemption in Hammer of the Gods made up for some of the crap that he put the brothers through. The retconning in this episode puts him back to being an obnoxious coward. I hope that he redeems himself before or during the finale and really steps up this time. 

[DeeDee79]

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

Maybe instead of watching the show, the writers have been reading "Sabriel" fanfic.

Maybe that's why they paired Dean and Ketch together also, There's fic out there about them too *gag* 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Maybe that's why they paired Dean and Ketch together also, There's fic out there about them too *gag* 

Ewwwwww....like Ketch has screwed Mary. Do people understand this? LOL I try not to ship shame but that is a hard nope. LOL 

Is the ship name Detch? Kean? EWWWWWWWWW

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Ewwwwww....like Ketch has screwed Mary. Do people understand this? LOL I try not to ship shame but that is a hard nope. LOL 

Is the ship name Detch? Kean? EWWWWWWWWW

I actually don't know if there is a ship name. I remember searching for fic under the Mary Winchester tag on AO3 to find some post-ep family feels fics and seeing Dean/Ketch pop up in fics that were found in my search. *sigh* Dean gets paired with damn near everyone doesn't he?

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Well, Dean didn't hold it against Cole for trying to kill him when he was human again and realized why he was doing it. I wouldn't say that they "bonded" but they put aside their differences and both brothers worked with him.

Well, was Sam really bonding with Gabriel or trying to get through to him so that he could help him?

22 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yes! I've never understood fandom's love of Gabriel but I thought that his redemption in Hammer of the Gods made up for some of the crap that he put the brothers through. The retconning in this episode puts him back to being an obnoxious coward. I hope that he redeems himself before or during the finale and really steps up this time. 

I've never really understood it either, but I'm OK with him not wanting to help.  

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

I actually don't know if there is a ship name. I remember searching for fic under the Mary Winchester tag on AO3 to find some post-ep family feels fics and seeing Dean/Ketch pop up in fics that were found in my search. *sigh* Dean gets paired with damn near everyone doesn't he?

Kean?  Detch?

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Well, was Sam really bonding with Gabriel or trying to get through to him so that he could help him?

I didn't feel that he bonded with him; I wasn't one of the ones that said that. I do think that the "I need you" was a stretch. If anything it would have made more sense IMO for Cas to be the one to reach him emotionally instead of just trying to unscramble his brain.

 

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Kean?  Detch?

Ugh..I don't want to think about ship names for them!

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I didn't feel that he bonded with him; I wasn't one of the ones that said that. I do think that the "I need you" was a stretch. If anything it would have made more sense IMO for Cas to be the one to reach him emotionally instead of just trying to unscramble his brain.

I felt it was OTT, but I also kind of figured that Sam was throwing everything at the problem seeing what would work.  Gentleness, offering the grace back, trying to force it in, giving a pep talk, talking about family.  If Gabriel hadn't snapped out of it then, Sam probably would have hit him over the head with a baseball bat to see what that would have done.  

So, while I think the speech was stupid, I guess I'm just looking at it a bit differently than everyone else.

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

So, while I think the speech was stupid, I guess I'm just looking at it a bit differently than everyone else.

I skimmed through the comments after it aired and while watching today I just kept thinking, "Isn't Cas his actual family? Cas who has always spoken about repairing the rift between his brothers and sisters? Why isn't he the one giving him this talk???" 

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Dean gets paired with damn near everyone doesn't he?

You're not wrong about that!

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I skimmed through the comments after it aired and while watching today I just kept thinking, "Isn't Cas his actual family? Cas who has always spoken about repairing the rift between his brothers and sisters? Why isn't he the one giving him this talk???" 

This is exactly my beef. There was no good or bad reason for Sam to make that speech other than Sam to relate to someone who had been tortured and put in isolation, which in and of itself is not a bad thing to do, they just picked the wrong character to do that with IMO.  This whole thing would have made more sense with Cas being the leader on trying to get through to Gabriel. 

I mean what was the point of Cas being there other than to translate what Gabriel wrote? And I am not bashing Cas. He's my 2nd fave character. And really why did it have to be in Enochian? I mean couldn't he have written that in English? I fully expected Cas to follow up on Sam's words and appeal to Gabriel some other way and that he would be the one to get through.

I just can't stand plot over character. 

Edited April 14, 2018 by catrox14

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is exactly my beef. There was no good or bad reason for Sam to make that speech other than Sam to relate to someone who had been tortured and put in isolation, which in and of itself is not a bad thing to do, they just picked the wrong character to do that with IMO.  This whole thing would have made more sense with Cas being the leader on trying to get through to Gabriel. 

I mean what was the point of Cas being there other than to translate what Gabriel wrote? And I am not bashing Cas. He's my 2nd fave character. And really why did it have to be in Enochian? I mean couldn't he have written that in English? I fully expected Cas to follow up on Sam's words and appeal to Gabriel some other way and that he would be the one to get through.

I just can't stand plot over character. 

Exactly. Cas also feels that Jack is his responsibility and that could have been a great motivator for him to try to reach Gabriel. It just annoys me that Cas is always let down when he tries to appeal to other angels. Gabriel is one that he could have reached since he wouldn’t have to deal with the “you betrayed Heaven” crap that he gets from the rest of them.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

Exactly. Cas also feels that Jack is his responsibility and that could have been a great motivator for him to try to reach Gabriel. It just annoys me that Cas is always let down when he tries to appeal to other angels. Gabriel is one that he could have reached since he wouldn’t have to deal with the “you betrayed Heaven” crap that he gets from the rest of them.

Yup. Cas had so many more angles to approach Gabriel than Sam it's just absurd to have done this. And FWIW, I would have said the same thing about if it was Dean and Gabriel. Sure they could bond over porn but again not the family thing. I'm just so annoyed with the writing here.

[Reganne]

I think some people are overreacting to Sam's speech.  I'm not necessarily talking about this site but on the internet as a whole.  Though I do admit, the speech might have played better without the whole "I need you" line.  I don't think that line was good or necessary.  Then again, I should be used to people overreacting to various things in the fandom so that's nothing new.  Lol

However... overall I enjoyed the episode.  I think they balanced the different storylines well although I was less interested in the Lucifer plot in this episode.  And this is coming from someone who still likes and enjoys Lucifer. 

I enjoyed both the Gabriel and AU storylines though.  I do like AU Charlie but I was kind of disappointed Dean didn't meet up with Mary and Jack.

[gonzosgirrl]

I think it would've been much more unrealistic if Dean and Ketch had managed to land in just the right spot to find Mary & Jack. And while I side-eyed Dean conflating this Charlie with 'his' Charlie a little, following the only lead they had to finding them made perfect sense to me.

There was a lot not to like about Sam's speeches IMO and I don't think I'm overreacting to expect the writers to know their characters and canon better than this dialogue implies. Foolish, probably, but not reactionary.

[mertensia]

I mostly enjoyed this. 

I don't have a problem with a man who feels like he should be trying for redemption actually, you know, trying for it.

I don't have a problem with Dean deviating to follow up on Charlie because she's a lead to Mary. 

They got lucky being able to film in the snow.

[Icarus]

I didn't enjoy the episode as much as I was expecting to, I usually don't get to watch it until the next night and like to read a selection of people's comments before so I am not too disappointed or hopeful. As there seemed to be generally a quite positive response I was hopeful, but actually found the Dean and Ketch scenes got a bit boring – can't believe I said that about Dean when he was being all macho and all! I only ever liked Charlie at the beginning before she became the wonder women of hunting so was not particularly stoked to see her but there was nothing to dislike about her character in the AW for me and I thought it very sensible that they went to find her – BUT that exposition and execution scene on the bridge WTF that was so so bad it made me laugh, sort of in despair though! I did find the Lucifer exorcising Anthony scene funny, I even didn't mind the heaven scenes and I am one of those hoping Lucifer disappears asap with luck for good. Lastly when Dean came back I didn't like the way Sam and Cas, to me anyway, seemed to cower – I have read different peoples takes on that but got to say to me they looked nervous, almost frightened. I guess that must have been either written by the horrible duo or was a director decision as I just don't think that either Sam or Cas would be feeling like that. Dean is not some monster they need to tread lightly around, Sam is quite capable of listening to Dean “rant” without feeling nervous. I also totally understand why Sam gave Gabriel back his grace, but agree with almost everyone else that his speech to Gabe was absolutely rubbish.

[mertensia]

I'm no expert, but I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that when trying to get someone to help you I goes further than we. We sounds like a committee.

Oh, and the whole exorcism bit (especially with the demon being named the mundane Anthony) was funny.

[MysteryGuest]

Since I don't think for a minute that Sam actually believes he single-handedly saved the world multiple times, I can't be too concerned over his use of the word "I".  He was trying to make a connection with Gabriel and was using anything he thought might work.  The "I need you" might have sounded odd, but considering Sam's mother and Jack are trapped in the AU, and now his brother has gone off by himself to try to find them, I can forgive him if he comes off sounding just a bit desperate.  

I do agree that the writers always seem to forget about Cas and his connection to Heaven during these scenes.  I was thinking the entire time that Cas would know whether Gabriel was really Gabriel, or possibly Michael in disguise as some had suggested.  But Cas never even attempted to connect with Gabriel.  It was the same when Chuck came back.  They never had one scene of Castiel speaking with him or questioning him about anything.  It made no sense and continues to make no sense, and is a big fail on the part of the writers, IMO.

Edited April 14, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[Reganne]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think it would've been much more unrealistic if Dean and Ketch had managed to land in just the right spot to find Mary & Jack. And while I side-eyed Dean conflating this Charlie with 'his' Charlie a little, following the only lead they had to finding them made perfect sense to me.

I agree that It would have been more unrealistic, but I still wanted to see it.  lol  I didn't have a problem with Dean following Charlie at all actually.  I just like reunion scenes and don't like to wait for them.  Of course when we do finally get there, it probably won't be the way I want it to be anyway.  lol  

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I agree that It would have been more unrealistic, but I still wanted to see it.  lol  I didn't have a problem with Dean following Charlie at all actually.  I just like reunion scenes and don't like to wait for them.  Of course when we do finally get there, it probably won't be the way I want it to be anyway.  lol  

LOL, on that last part, we can most certainly agree. :)

[catrox14]

I can headcanon that since they crossed over from a different spot they would land in a different spot. What baffles me is  why they didn't  go back to the lake house where the first rift opened.  I mean to me I would think okay we crossed over onto AW Earth at X point from X point then it stands or is more likely that you would get to that spot again. Or at least it's worth a try. Yes I know, plot for this episode.

 I said the same thing back in the Bad Place. I mean they could have just taken Kaia and Jack to that spot and upped their chances of going over to the same spot or closer.  Yes, I know. Plot to set up Wayward Sisters.

Plot contrivance writing is becoming too much the norm in this show and  that is NOT a good thing IMO.

I was wondering why Cas didn't connect with Gabriel as I would have expected, and that he said an angel can't heal an archangel and I kind of don't buy it other than plot convenience.  That said, I did note it as once more Cas couldn't heal someone. It's convenient that one person was dead even though angels have healed dead people before, like Gadreel resurrected Cas. Anyway, I have put another tick mark in the box for Castiel not being our Castiel. 

Edited April 14, 2018 by catrox14

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I do agree that the writers always seem to forget about Cas and his connection to Heaven during these scenes.  I was thinking the entire time that Cas would know whether Gabriel was really Gabriel, or possibly Michael in disguise as some had suggested.  But Cas never even attempted to connect with Gabriel.  It was the same when Chuck came back.  They never had one scene of Castiel speaking with him or questioning him about anything.  It made no sense and continues to make no sense, and is a big fail on the part of the writers, IMO.

I agree 100%. It really bothered me especially since Cas has been searching and wondering where his father has been since season 5.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 

I was wondering why Cas didn't connect with Gabriel as I would have expected, and that he said an angel can't heal an archangel and I kind of don't buy it other than plot convenience.  That said, I did note it as once more Cas couldn't heal someone. It's convenient that one person was dead even though angels have healed dead people before, like Gadreel resurrected Cas. Anyway, I have put another tick mark in the box for Castiel not being our Castiel. 

 

I can buy that Castiel couldn't heal Gabriel's mind. Have we ever seen an angel cure mental issues/anguish? But why couldn't he at least heal/clean uo gis meatsuit? Because we needed to see his bloodied face for the!Drama? 

Edited April 14, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Bergamot]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Since I don't think for a minute that Sam actually believes he single-handedly saved the world multiple times, I can't be too concerned over his use of the word "I".  

For me, the thing that grates is not the "I" (I'm pretty sure that in "Scoobynatural", he says to Velma, "We've saved the world -- a lot.") It's just that this is another example of something I hate about the Dabb era of Supernatural, where everyone in the hunting world is in awe of the Winchesters and they are seen as these mythic, larger-than-life heroes. I liked the show much better when they were not VIPs and no one gasped at the sound of their names. I especially hate with a passion the way Dabb has insisted on making them into men who go around telling people, "We're the guys who save the world." Even though it may be true, I find it, frankly, repellent for them to be so self-important about it.

Yes, Buffy's gravestone said, "She saved the world -- a lot", but that was her friends' last memorial to her. I would prefer that Sam had instead told Velma that they had saved a lot of people from things like ghosts. Or even something like what Dean told his mother when she first returned, that he thinks that they have made the world a better place with what they do -- saving people, hunting things.

Aside from that, to me summing things up this way is ignoring most of the depth and darkness of their story. And would you want to tell people you saved the world if you felt maybe it was your mistakes that put it in danger?  Reducing the story to "We are heroes who save the world" smooths away all the horrible complications, terrible mistakes, agonizing choices, desperate courage, and awful suffering they have experienced  -- all the things they've been through that are impossible to fully explain to anyone else, and which to me make it unlikely that they would want to tell everyone they meet how they have saved the world. (A lot.)

Sorry to rant about this, but it is one of my pet peeves about Dabb's concept of the show!

[Pondlass1]

5 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Reducing the story to "We are heroes who save the world" smooths away all the horrible complications, terrible mistakes, agonizing choices, desperate courage, and awful suffering they have experienced  -- all the things they've been through that are impossible to fully explain to anyone else, and which to me make it unlikely that they would want to tell everyone they meet how they have saved the world. (A lot.)

This ^.  

[companionenvy]

21 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

The Charlie/ Dean thing shows Dean's unstable mental state and his fear about losing Mary.

I didn't see it as unstable. Dean didn't think she was his Charlie, which would have been delusional; he thought of her (understandably) as close enough in certain respects to his Charlie that he wasn't willing to let her die, and looked at helping this version of her as a kind of reparation for being unable to save her in his own. It isn't like AU-versions of people are totally unrelated to their versions from our world. They have the same genetic makeup, which means that they're pretty likely to wind up with some of the same characteristics. As we've seen, that is, in fact, the case: AU Bobby, Charlie, and even Kevin have had some key similarities to our versions of them. It would be odd for me if Dean were able to look at alt!Charlie and just say "Eh, not my Charlie, not my problem"

And I think it is a huge stretch to blame Sam for "bonding" with Gabriel on the grounds that he killed Dean. As others have mentioned, the boys have partnered with tons of people who have tried to kill them (and Dean himself has worked with Gabriel), but Gabriel killed Dean within a pocket universe or dimension or whatever that Dean has zero memory of. It was sadistic, but far crueler to Sam, who actually did retain the memories of everything that happened, than to Dean.

[Reganne]

Am I missing something?  I don't recall Sam saying "I save the world" in this episode.  I just watched it again and still didn't hear it.  The closest thing I heard him say was "This is where I make the world a better place" meaning by him being in the life and helping out (which he was opposed to at the beginning), he is making the world a better place.  He is trying to relate to Gabriel's need to get away from his family and that life and Sam's feelings earlier in the series and how he wanted out.  Also saying his family needed him.  To me that's a bit different than saying "I save the word".  Though I don't remember hearing him say that in the Scooby-doo episode either so I will have to watch that again to catch the context.  Is there somewhere else in the episode where he does say "I save the world"?  I was just wondering if it appeared somewhere else other than his main speech to Gabriel.... because that's where I was mostly looking for it.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Reganne

[DittyDotDot]

39 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

They have the same genetic makeup, which means that they're pretty likely to wind up with some of the same characteristics.

I thought it was interesting that they both had the same fake name. I mean, our Charlie was born Celeste Middleton, she took on Charlie Bradbury as an alias.

40 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

And I think it is a huge stretch to blame Sam for "bonding" with Gabriel on the grounds that he killed Dean.

Yeah, it wasn't like Sam was looking for a new drinking buddy, he was trying to draw Gabriel out in the hopes he might help them. I'd say Sam was more using Gabriel than bonding with him.

[Katy M]

54 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

And I think it is a huge stretch to blame Sam for "bonding" with Gabriel on the grounds that he killed Dean. As others have mentioned, the boys have partnered with tons of people who have tried to kill them (and Dean himself has worked with Gabriel), but Gabriel killed Dean within a pocket universe or dimension or whatever that Dean has zero memory of. It was sadistic, but far crueler to Sam, who actually did retain the memories of everything that happened, than to Dean.

Not to mention the fact, I don't think Dean's even still mad about that.  He seemed like he was fine with him during Hammer of the Gods.  He was only mad that he didn't want to help with Lucifer.  That seemed to be his only beef with him.

[Aeryn13]

I had no problem with Sam attempting to get through to Gabriel with a speech. Doing something to jolt him out of his catatonic state was prudent and I didn`t see it as a betrayal of Dean or anything. They`ve worked with so many of their previous (and current) enemies, I`m not bothered by this anymore. The problem I had with that scene was wholly the dialogue given, from "think of the children aka your nephew Jack" to "I once tried to leave the family too, just like you" to "I need you", it was just so nonsensical. And of course the fucking theme playing there where it didn`t belong. 

That was just typical Bucklemming writing. They simply ignored that back in Season 5, the parallels in terms of family dynamic were Michael = Dean and Lucifer = Sam and when they introduced the Trickster as Gabriel, we got a perspective of "the middle child", outside of that dynamic. Obviously (and you can`t count Adam for this allegory), Dean and Sam don`t have that but the God and his archangels family did. Therefore this equating Gabriel with Sam was just WTF to me. 

There are different perspectives, people, dynamics, stories and backgrounds to Dean and/or Sam, Gabriel was and is one of them. He isn`t like either. If Dean and Sam had had a middle brother who left the family because he couldn`t stand the fighting between John and Sam, THAT would be Gabriel via his backstory.   

But what do I expect, those writers are still the same who made Lucifer the oldest sibling. Yeah, it wasn`t like the parallels weren`t the entire point of the Season 5 mythology. Urgh.

Now "Charlie Bradbury" being a pseudonym was just a minor thing in one episode but I`m still very, very sure that it was just a gaffe on Bucklemming`s part. It`s not like they would remember this. Even if they had written the episode, they wouldn`t. Heck, you can even get away with it by going "oh well, things happened exactly the same in both universes until it became Michael-land". 

Of course, I don`t think the writers ever really understood what is the appeal of creating alternate worlds in the first place; namely you can explore characters out of their usual comfort zones. If the characters are simply carbon copies, just in different circumstances, what is the point? At least the Arrow-verse tries with their multiverse. Not saying they succeed but it is IMO a better effort.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Bergamot said:

(I'm pretty sure that in "Scoobynatural", he says to Velma, "We've saved the world -- a lot."

 

4 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

where everyone in the hunting world is in awe of the Winchesters and they are seen as these mythic, larger-than-life heroes. I liked the show much better when they were not VIPs and no eh one gasped at the sound of their names.

They've always been legends though. Even back in early seasons they were well known in the hunter world for being the best hunters. They already had that reputation

 

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

They have the same genetic makeup, which means that they're pretty likely to wind up with some of the same characteristics.

 Where are you getting this from?

[MysteryGuest]

3 hours ago, Bergamot said:

It's just that this is another example of something I hate about the Dabb era of Supernatural, where everyone in the hunting world is in awe of the Winchesters and they are seen as these mythic, larger-than-life heroes. I liked the show much better when they were not VIPs and no one gasped at the sound of their names. I especially hate with a passion the way Dabb has insisted on making them into men who go around telling people, "We're the guys who save the world." Even though it may be true, I find it, frankly, repellent for them to be so self-important about it.

I agree with this.  I get that they can no longer show them as naive about their reputations.  There've been too many world-ending crises that they've averted for them to still doubt their importance to the world.  Plus, God himself told them they were important.  But I did prefer when they were always a bit surprised to learn that people had heard of them.  But that was back when they were fighting monsters and ghosts, and didn't want people to know the truth about what was out there.  Now that they're literally doing God's work, I guess it's a bit more difficult to remain anonymous...or humble.  Just another reason why I never wanted Chuck to be God.  The story has gotten too big, and they aren't just a couple of hunters trying to make the world a better place.

[companionenvy]

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 Where are you getting this from?

I'm not sure I get the question, tbh, but I assume they have the same genetic makeup because they look exactly the same, and are presented as versions of the same person. To the extent that genetics is some of the shaping force behind the people we become, two people with the same genetic makeup also have some of the same predispositions - and indeed, this has been borne out in RL by studies of identical twins raised apart, who sometimes display striking similarities in later life despite having totally different sets of experiences. This certainly seems to be what they're going with on the show. Alt!Charlie is still brave and rebellious, alt!Kevin is still neurotic, and alt!Bobby is still a gruff but good-hearted hero. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, Bergamot said:

It's just that this is another example of something I hate about the Dabb era of Supernatural, where everyone in the hunting world is in awe of the Winchesters and they are seen as these mythic, larger-than-life heroes. I liked the show much better when they were not VIPs and no one gasped at the sound of their names. I especially hate with a passion the way Dabb has insisted on making them into men who go around telling people, "We're the guys who save the world." Even though it may be true, I find it, frankly, repellent for them to be so self-important about it.

While I agree this is sort of repellent, I don't see it as a Dabb thing. I can recall it being said at least once a season since S5.

I don't really mind it most times simply because context matters. Like when Dean said it to Mary last season wasn't to be boastful, but he was telling her that her beating herself up about her role in how they were raised was a nice gesture, but pointless because without all that, they wouldn't be the men they were--guys who kick ass and save the world.  

However, I liked the show when it was just two guys driving in and out of small little towns unseen too, but once they did the big apocalypse in S5, that ship sailed, IMO. At this point, it annoys me more when hunters or people who should know about the Winchesters don't. The show has simply been on too long for them not to be legendary at this point, IMO.

7 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I'm not sure I get the question, tbh, but I assume they have the same genetic makeup because they look exactly the same, and are presented as versions of the same person. To the extent that genetics is some of the shaping force behind the people we become, two people with the same genetic makeup also have some of the same predispositions - and indeed, this has been borne out in RL by studies of identical twins raised apart, who sometimes display striking similarities in later life despite having totally different sets of experiences. This certainly seems to be what they're going with on the show. Alt!Charlie is still brave and rebellious, alt!Kevin is still neurotic, and alt!Bobby is still a gruff but good-hearted hero. 

Yeah, I agree they seem to be doing the same basic personalities, which I've been disappointed by, myself. I'd like to see more differences in the characters. In fact, initially I was expecting the twist of the episode to be that Charlie was working with the angels, not against them. Which, I would've found far more interesting than it being basic Charlie in an army jacket. But then I realized they would never do that for fear of pissing off Charlie fans again. Better to be safe and boring than do something daring and interesting, I guess.

[companionenvy]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

In fact, initially I was expecting the twist of the episode to be that Charlie was working with the angels, not against them.

I had the same thought! And yeah, it would have hurt, but it would have been a great twist. 

[DittyDotDot]

Hey, I have a question...how did Sam and Dean know that Jack was in the Alternate? I can't remember, is it just their best guess or did someone in the know tell them before Dean crossed over? I know Dean's first goal was to rescue Mary, but they seemed so sure that Jack was there too when it was just as likely that he could've ended up in any number of universes. I know they learned about Micheal's plans to invade from Cass through Lucifer, but Lucifer escaped the Alternate long before Jack ended up there. Did I forget something?

10 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I had the same thought! And yeah, it would have hurt, but it would have been a great twist. 

Nice to know it wasn't just me. ;)

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Hey, I have a question...how did Sam and Dean know that Jack was in the Alternate?

I think Kaya told them in Wayward Sisters.  I don't know how she knew.  Felt it, I guess.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think Kaya told them in Wayward Sisters.  I don't know how she knew.  Felt it, I guess.

Gotcha. Now I remember. Thanks!

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I'm not sure I get the question, tbh, but I assume they have the same genetic makeup because they look exactly the same, and are presented as versions of the same person. To the extent that genetics is some of the shaping force behind the people we become, two people with the same genetic makeup also have some of the same predispositions - and indeed, this has been borne out in RL by studies of identical twins raised apart, who sometimes display striking similarities in later life despite having totally different sets of experiences. This certainly seems to be what they're going with on the show. Alt!Charlie is still brave and rebellious, alt!Kevin is still neurotic, and alt!Bobby is still a gruff but good-hearted hero. 

I thought you were implying it was something said in the show itself.

Edited April 14, 2018 by catrox14
didn't intend to quote @gonzosgrrrl. I'm not sure why that was there.

[Dobian]

Lucifer and the exorcism was pretty freaking hilarious.

[trudysmom]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

I thought you were implying it was something said in the show itself.

I assumed it was said, in not so many words, in the episode where Bobby meets Mary and Jack.  She tells him that she's from a universe where she had two sons and they averted the apocalypse.  From that conversation I assumed parallel universes, same people, differing circumstances because of Dean and Sam.  But that's just my take.

I didn't love this episode and I agree the writing sucks particularly bad right now.  Also, I have to register my complaint at the continued lack of classic rock.  Sorry to beat the dead horse, but it bugs me ALOT.  

[Bergamot]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I agree with this.  I get that they can no longer show them as naive about their reputations.  There've been too many world-ending crises that they've averted for them to still doubt their importance to the world.  Plus, God himself told them they were important.  But I did prefer when they were always a bit surprised to learn that people had heard of them.  But that was back when they were fighting monsters and ghosts, and didn't want people to know the truth about what was out there.  Now that they're literally doing God's work, I guess it's a bit more difficult to remain anonymous...or humble.  Just another reason why I never wanted Chuck to be God.  The story has gotten too big, and they aren't just a couple of hunters trying to make the world a better place.

I know you are right, but I still don't like it! :-)

It is true, though, there is no going back at this point. Unfortunately. It especially causes a problem with any MOTW episodes. For example, in "A Most Holy Man", it was ludicrous to see Sam be all nervous and intimidated by the mob boss. These are men who have been to Hell and have faced off with God, Lucifer, and Death -- they are not going to be scared of some two-bit gangster.

But what is to be done? This show is not Buffy, where it was possible to have an episode in which preventing the end of the world and getting a date with a cute guy are presented as equally important. One of my favorite moments from that show is when Giles grimly predicts, "It's the end of the world", and Buffy, Willow, and Xander respond in unison, "Again?!"  Supernatural is a totally different show, though, with a different tone. At its core is an earnestness and sincerity that comes through even in the light-hearted moments. It's not designed for ironic detachment, even when it seems silly for the "guys who save the world" to be bothering with some ridiculous Monster of the Week.

Having said that, I still hate them being all grim and serious when talking to other people about their importance in the larger scheme of things. Maybe a little bit of ironic detachment in regard to that would not hurt. What Dean said to Sandy -- "This kind of weird, it's sort of our thing" -- is sufficient.

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

But what is to be done? This show is not Buffy, where it was possible to have an episode in which preventing the end of the world and getting a date with a cute guy are presented as equally important. One of my favorite moments from that show is when Giles grimly predicts, "It's the end of the world", and Buffy, Willow, and Xander respond in unison, "Again?!"  Supernatural is a totally different show, though, with a different tone. At its core is an earnestness and sincerity that comes through even in the light-hearted moments. It's not designed for ironic detachment, even when it seems silly for the "guys who save the world" to be bothering with some ridiculous Monster of the Week.

The simplicity is what I miss most of all.  It was one thing to be hunting a demon that killed your mother, while also hunting werewolves, vampires and ghosts.  But like you say, once you've literally spent time in Hell, and have had face-to-face conversations with God, it's tough to go back.  I wasn't in favor of Chuck being God, or God having a sister, but I did think that once they left, we would get back to the basics of hunting monsters again.  Unfortunately, that hasn't happened.  TPTB seem convinced that the Heaven/Hell saga is all fans are interested in, so I think we're stuck with it.  I can hope that at the end of this season, Lucifer and both Michael's will have been dealt with, but I've wanted that for a few seasons now, and I'm losing hope that it's ever going to happen.  

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Supernatural is a totally different show, though, with a different tone. At its core is an earnestness and sincerity that comes through even in the light-hearted moments. It's not designed for ironic detachment, even when it seems silly for the "guys who save the world" to be bothering with some ridiculous Monster of the Week.

It did have that irony when Ben Edlund was writing. At this point, they have lost that kind of humor, which sucks.

[Res]

6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

  Now that they're literally doing God's work, I guess it's a bit more difficult to remain anonymous...or humble.  Just another reason why I NEVER wanted Chuck to be God.  The story has gotten too big, and they aren't just a couple of hunters trying to make the world a better place.

This X 1 Trillion!

[KirkB]

I was okay with Chuck being God. It's just that I didn't think encountering God should be an afterthought from a couple of seasons back. If they were going to do that it should have been the culmination of everything they'd been building toward and capped off the series.