Jump to content
Forums forums
PRIMETIMER
GHScorpiosRule

Season 8: Our Guys Didn't Always Win

Recommended Posts

I think this was the season, that saw the good guys lose more than they won? I can't recall.

 

But it had one powerful episode which I love and hate: "Ritual."

 

But first, let me rant about "Denial" the episode where those two college brats, strangled and killed their newborn baby as if he was nothing, and went back to his frat house to dance to "Endless Love."

No matter how many times I watch this, I can't believe with the evidence, though nothing direct evidence, but enough, that I know I'd find those two selfish twats guilty.  Two of the most narcissistic/selfish/self-absorbed people I've ever met. Even looking at the jurors expressions, I thought they'd find them guilty.

 

"Ritual"  The judge in juvenile court made me see red. Just because that fat old white man had never heard of female "circumcision" just proved to me he wasn't educated about the atrocities going around in the world outside of his little world.

 

And it pained me to see how Lennie and Rey arrested Dr. Nassar--no proof; barely any, to think he was a terrorist, and in public, with that bunch of storm troopers.

 

I did like the smack down that Jamie gave to Allison's grandmother, about respecting and obeying the laws in the United States.  And that the mother would have supervised visits for not even putting up any kind of resistance of this happening to her own daughter.

 

Though this episode did have one of the funniest lines ever. When Jamie is talking to the neighbors, she's talking to an elderly woman, Mrs. Newman, who Allison would help out. Saying how one time, when Nari found that Allison had gotten this make-up and her friend's mother was helping/showing Allison how to put it on, Nari came up to her and called her a slut:

 

Newman: "...Called her a slut. She was, but that's beside the point."

Me: chortling and giggling at how this 70 oldish person said slut and said it was true, but handwaved it away, because the other woman being a slut wasn't the point of the story.

Share this post


Link to post

Season 8; Episode List 

 

1 Thrill 1997-09-24
2 Denial 1997-10-08
3 Navy Blues 1997-10-15
4 Harvest 1997-10-29
5 Nullification 1997-11-05
6 Baby, It's You (1) 1997-11-12
Special Baby, It's You (2) (Homicide: Life on the Street) 1997-11-14 
7 Blood 1997-11-19
8 Shadow 1997-11-26
9 Burned 1997-12-10
10 Ritual 1997-12-17
11 Under the Influence 1998-01-07
12 Expert 1998-01-21
13 Castoff 1998-01-28
14 Grief 1998-02-04
15 Faccia a Faccia 1998-02-25
16 Divorce 1998-03-04
17 Carrier 1998-04-01
18 Stalker 1998-04-15
19 Disappeared 1998-04-22
20 Burden 1998-04-24
21 Bad Girl 1998-04-29
22 Damaged 1998-05-06
23 Tabloid 1998-05-13
24 Monster 1998-05-20


Another season with a Homicide crossover. I loved those. :)

Share this post


Link to post

Ugh. Forgot how much I hate "Nullification" and this an episode that really puts truth to the title of this thread.

 

Where do I start? With the Stepford Wives way the asshole defendants recited their names and rank?

 

The way it was so eye rollingly obvious which jurors sided with Christy? Awful; just awful. Season 2 did a better job with the Slum Lord episode where one juror spoke fluent Spanish and later revealed that the translator messed up. Unlike that fat lard of a jackass, who was handing out flammatory propaganda and urging other jurors to acquit instead of fucking gong by the facts. And that other juror, was also blatantly obvious, who was probably the standout. It would have been better if he hadn't been the holdout, despite what his beliefs were.

 

For some reason, I thought that Jack would have mentioned how Christy refused to acknowledge that he killed the guard, considering all that blather he was spouting about what they did was right. So, yeah, just like Jack asked, "what's wrong? Why are you quiet? Why can't you admit you killed him, if you believe in your cause?" (paraphrasing here)

 

Oooh, and another judge to add to the loved judges list--Scarletti. Though from Adam and Jack's initial reactions, it seemed like he would be biased in favor of the defendant. But he wasn't.

 

This was one time I wish we'd found out if they were found guilty in the retrial. Or was Jack bluffing about seeing them again in two months?

 

I did like how Jack wouldn't become the thing that Christy was accusing them of being when he refused to bump that blond haired bespectacled juror who probably was on the side of the defendants.

Share this post


Link to post

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

 

I know that cops are given a lot of leeway when questioning suspects...they can lie, be deceptive, blah, blah, blah.

 

But this season really started and show our cops egregiously violating a lot of suspects' constitutional rights; specifically, the right to an attorney.  Once they ask for a lawyer, questions have to stop. STOP. But noooooo, Rey especially, keeps going on and on and on, and then the case gets thrown out, because once they get their "confession" and the suspect gets to court, where he or she does finally get a lawyer, then said confession is thrown out.

 

Even Van Buren got involved. And I get it, the asshat of Chief of Detectives was sticking it to her for her lawsuit against the department, but these aren't rookies. They HAD to know it come back and bit them on their asses, and it did. Especially in "Monster."

 

Rey ruins everything.

Share this post


Link to post

Ewwwwwwww! Grosssssssss! Watching "Bad Girl" where Stabler's wife kills a cop. Jaime goes to question her father, and yuck! He's a hairy ape! (Apologies to all apes), his arms are all just hairy! Blech. I mean, waves and tufts of hair all the way down his arms! I think I'm gonna be sick.

 

And it's been two years since Lenny spoke with his daughter, Cathy, who apparently is now a drug addict. Just what his her problem? I get it; Lenny wasn't the best of fathers, but she acts like he abandoned her totally or something. And then she's whining that there's no advantage to being his daughter.

 

Which reminds me; I know that Lenny has two daughters. I didn't see her at Cathy's funeral which was in the season finale. Saw his ex. But didn't see his other daughter. Was she erased from canon?

Share this post


Link to post

I remember that guy, Scorpios, he was quite gross. And I liked how hesitant Jamie was to even step in the apartment, and would only do so with the door left open! 

 

"Bad Girl" is an overall unpleasant episode. Apeman aside, there just wasn't much to enjoy. Jack and Jamie won their case, though by the end it didn't feel much like a victory. And Cathy came off as an ungrateful brat. She can complain about Lennie as a dad all she wants, I still felt worse for him than I did for her. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Just for clarification, did the second parter of the crossover only happen on Homicide?  This was the episode where the 14 yr old model died and it turns out she was raped.  The girl's dad was a plastic surgeon and they maintained a residence in Baltimore.   The episode ended with Skoda talking to McCoy about the mind of the dad (suspected of incest).  If so, this sucks!!!!!  I watched the episode on Netflix and would like some resolution! 

Share this post


Link to post

From what I understand, the complete series set of HLOTS has the L&O crossover episodes. But they should have been released individually, too.

Share this post


Link to post

As well as the Lynda Carter two parter, that started on SVU and concluded on the mothership. There was the one on the mothership, with Noel Beck, her mom was Jane Alexander, who killed that model guy in the car, which concluded on SVU years later.

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks for the info.  I guess I'll see if it's on Netflix.  Never thought it would be the mom.   There was another crossover I remember with Homicide with the bombings that I recall, but I can't remember the season. 

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks for the info.  I guess I'll see if it's on Netflix.  Never thought it would be the mom.   There was another crossover I remember with Homicide with the bombings that I recall, but I can't remember the season. 

 

I was just watching the Season 6 crossover which did involve bombings.  The L&O DVD has both the L&O half and the Homicide half of the crossover.  Not sure what they did for the Season 8 crossover.

Share this post


Link to post
But first, let me rant about "Denial" the episode where those two college brats, strangled and killed their newborn baby as if he was nothing, and went back to his frat house to dance to "Endless Love."

No matter how many times I watch this, I can't believe with the evidence, though nothing direct evidence, but enough, that I know I'd find those two selfish twats guilty.  Two of the most narcissistic/selfish/self-absorbed people I've ever met. Even looking at the jurors expressions, I thought they'd find them guilty.

 

Ugh, that episode bugs the heck out of me, as well. The late James Rebhorn was such a slimy defense attorney in that case, I always got so annoyed when I watched him: "Your husband or your daughter! You can't have it both ways!" UGH. The dad going out of his way to cover for his daughter -- the murderer  -- always gets me irritated, as well. Lies of omission I get, but a deliberate coverup? Just an awful case all around.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I just watched Denial on TNT and I don't know why.  I know this one always irritates me to no end, for all the reasons stated above.  Are you telling me the mother's breakdown on the stand was enough to convince everyone on the jury that the baby wasn't murdered?  or that there was reasonable doubt the father did it?  And the kids looked so dopey through the whole trial.

 

Why do I watch these when I know I won't like the outcome?  It's not like I haven't seen them before, nor do I expect the ending to change in syndication?  Although that would be great.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I just watched Denial on TNT and I don't know why.  I know this one always irritates me to no end, for all the reasons stated above.  Are you telling me the mother's breakdown on the stand was enough to convince everyone on the jury that the baby wasn't murdered?  or that there was reasonable doubt the father did it?  And the kids looked so dopey through the whole trial.

It was enough to get Casey Anthony acquitted.  Even after the trial a couple jury members spoke to the fact that they think there's a GOOD possibility that she could've been responsible. BUT there was little to no hard evidence to support that from their point of view.

 

Same thing here, yeah we have extra context as to how douchey these kids were, unfortunately the jury didn't have that context.  Yeah they were painted as arrogant kids but it doesn't prove the baby was legally alive.

 

I also thought Jack's accusation of them dancing as a reaction after the events was an odd way of trying to prove they had no conscious during the events. Different people cope in different ways, a jury could easily infer them trying to escape what happened.

 

As an episode it was sad, one of the biggest downers the show ever did in it's 20 year history. But it happens in real life, just because television is a form of escapism doesn't mean it should avoid depressing moments like this.

 

My favorite moment was Jack's delivery in Mr. Talbert being arrested:

"Mr. Talbert, I'm having you arrested pending a contempt hearing. I've had it with him, his daughter, and her boyfriend. If I could indict him as a co-conspirator, I would. This baby is dead. I hope they all go to jail for it. Place this man under arrest and get him out of my office."

That moment from Jack PERFECTLY captured the disgust and contempt ALL OF US probably had for them.

 

On a slightly more positive note, the headline this was ripped from had a slightly better ending in real life (well..... none of us in our right minds want this happening to a baby.... ever) the couple pled guilty to manslaughter. Yeah they're both out now, but the public know's they're killers. As opposed to the fictional couple getting to say, "We didn't do it; our acquittal proves it."

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Ugh. Forgot how much I hate "Nullification" and this an episode that really puts truth to the title of this thread.

 

Where do I start? With the Stepford Wives way the asshole defendants recited their names and rank?

 

The way it was so eye rollingly obvious which jurors sided with Christy? Awful; just awful. Season 2 did a better job with the Slum Lord episode where one juror spoke fluent Spanish and later revealed that the translator messed up. Unlike that fat lard of a jackass, who was handing out flammatory propaganda and urging other jurors to acquit instead of fucking gong by the facts. And that other juror, was also blatantly obvious, who was probably the standout. It would have been better if he hadn't been the holdout, despite what his beliefs were.

 

For some reason, I thought that Jack would have mentioned how Christy refused to acknowledge that he killed the guard, considering all that blather he was spouting about what they did was right. So, yeah, just like Jack asked, "what's wrong? Why are you quiet? Why can't you admit you killed him, if you believe in your cause?" (paraphrasing here)

 

Oooh, and another judge to add to the loved judges list--Scarletti. Though from Adam and Jack's initial reactions, it seemed like he would be biased in favor of the defendant. But he wasn't.

 

This was one time I wish we'd found out if they were found guilty in the retrial. Or was Jack bluffing about seeing them again in two months?

I don't think Jack was bluffing. As the judge noted when he denied the defendants' motion to dismiss, if he granted the motion, any criminal or criminal organization could claim they were at war with the government and claim their allegedly criminal acts were in furtherance of that war.

Share this post


Link to post

Can we talk about "Under the Influence"?  I know Jack was out of bounds in how he tried to keep how drunk the guy was out of evidence, but honestly, I did not have one scrap of pity to spare for that asshole.  He clearly was a mean drunk.  He was abusive to his girlfriend.  He mowed down three innocent people -- including a little boy and his father -- and left another in a coma, and he refused to take any responsibility for his actions, claiming that he was too drunk to remember anything and why should he be prosecuted for something he couldn't remember, and blah blah blah....

 

It wasn't until Jack showed him the pictures of the victims that he even showed so much as glimmer of remorse or humanity.  And that's probably what Jack really wanted, given in how he backed off after that.  But up until then that guy was such a smug prick, it was unbelievable.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

I agree.  I didn't understand why so many people were opposing Jack.  This guy got drunk, knew he was drunk, drove the car, killed 3 people, etc.  Why should he get lenience?  Of course, I think in real life we don't punish drunk drivers hard enough, so that may have been bleeding into my view.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

It's a shame Season 8 was so heavy on all the subplots when many of them could have been sprinkled out among other seasons. I love every tidbit of personal information we get about our favorite cops and lawyers, but in rewatching it on WE, it's really very jarring when compared to the earlier seasons and then the following seasons.

 

It was no SVU-level of "IT'S PERSONAL BECAUSE OF REASONS!!" but back then TPTB showed some restraint and subtlety, which makes the "season of subplots" even more puzzling in retrospect. Everyone had something personal going on all at the same time?

 

And what happened to Lennie's other daughter, Julia? I know she never appeared like Cathy (who had been talked about before this season as being closer to Lennie but then appeared with a giant chip on her shoulder) did, but I'm 99% sure she did actually exist.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

It's a shame Season 8 was so heavy on all the subplots when many of them could have been sprinkled out among other seasons. I love every tidbit of personal information we get about our favorite cops and lawyers, but in rewatching it on WE, it's really very jarring when compared to the earlier seasons and then the following seasons.

It was no SVU-level of "IT'S PERSONAL BECAUSE OF REASONS!!" but back then TPTB showed some restraint and subtlety, which makes the "season of subplots" even more puzzling in retrospect. Everyone had something personal going on all at the same time?

And what happened to Lennie's other daughter, Julia? I know she never appeared like Cathy (who had been talked about before this season as being closer to Lennie but then appeared with a giant chip on her shoulder) did, but I'm 99% sure she did actually exist.

So this is a bunch of speculation, but Lennie has this throwaway line in one episode (I don't remember much of anything else. I think he's talking to Ray?) about how men talk, or don't talk, to each other. He says something like "Do you even know what state my kid lives in?" I always assumed that was Julia and she was supposed to live far away.

Share this post


Link to post

So this is a bunch of speculation, but Lennie has this throwaway line in one episode (I don't remember much of anything else. I think he's talking to Ray?) about how men talk, or don't talk, to each other. He says something like "Do you even know what state my kid lives in?" I always assumed that was Julia and she was supposed to live far away.

 

Thanks! I knew I wasn't crazy.

 

Looking back, it's hard to believe that this was Dr. Skoda's first season of appearances. It seems like he was around a lot longer. 

Share this post


Link to post

Also in regards to Lennie's kids; wasn't it mentioned he was married more than once? I think I also started assuming at some point that they had different mothers and may not have actually known each other that well. Julia may not have even grown up in NYC. Lennie not being father of the year, or particularly sober, may not have made a big effort to plan Brisco and Daughters Family Fun Days for the three of them. I have friends with siblings they don't know very well for similar reasons.

Share this post


Link to post

One thing about Cathy's funeral - it takes place several episodes after her murder which in Law & Order time is a few months, no? That never struck me as making a whit of sense, besides dramatically (to draw Lennie's storyline out to the finale and create a "did he or didn't?" cliffhanger with the hit).

 

And I'm depressed because I always forget His Holiness was on four seasons, not three. Thought we were about to segue into the Ed Green Era and then I remembered, not until season ten. Bleargh.

 

tumblr_mebcg12n0M1qc6yaxo1_250.gif

 

Yeah, the timeline with poor Lennie's dead daughter's funeral didn't make a lick of sense.

 

And I'm sorry you had false hopes in ridding yourself of His Holiness before his actual end. It stings, I know.  :-P

 

And I see you still live up to Queen of the GIF!  Made of win!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Sometimes I wonder about the aftermath of a family when the show ends. Saw "Ritual" this morning.  That mother/daughter relationship is forever tarnished and will never be what it was before. Not that I blame the daughter, Allison, but she did try to frame her mother and possibly send her to jail and save her Dad with her lie.  Even though the mother found her voice to speak up at the end and stand up to her own mother, it was too late. I can't imagine Allison completely trusting her mother again or how their relationship would be if she had a daughter.  As for the husband, who is to say he didn't divorce her after he got out of jail? Maybe they salvage their marriage but it couldn't have been easy. I know in L&O the killer in most cases go to jail but I'm not sure realistically the grand jury would've indicted the father. I'm sure the jury wouldn't have found him guilty which was why Jack didn't want to case to go to trial.

Edited by Arcadiasw
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
On July 31, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Arcadiasw said:

Sometimes I wonder about the aftermath of a family when the show ends. Saw "Ritual" this morning.  That mother/daughter relationship is forever tarnished and will never be what it was before. Not that I blame the daughter, Allison, but she did try to frame her mother and possibly send her to jail and save her Dad with her lie.  Even though the mother found her voice to speak up at the end and stand up to her own mother, it was too late. I can't imagine Allison completely trusting her mother again or how their relationship would be if she had a daughter.  As for the husband, who is to say he didn't divorce her after he got out of jail? Maybe they salvage their marriage but it couldn't have been easy. I know in L&O the killer in most cases go to jail but I'm not sure realistically the grand jury would've indicted the father. I'm sure the jury wouldn't have found him guilty which was why Jack didn't want to case to go to trial.

I agree about how Ritual, that was one of the few episodes in L&O that I was rooting against the prosecution in. That guy didn't deserve to go to jail, I think the murder was justified and I think most people would agree. I think most people would kill someone if they knew they planned to mutiliate their daughter. And I hated the mom, she was pathetic, yeah she stood up at the end but for the most part she was spineless and useless, the fact that she let her worthless bitch of a mom around her daughter was pathetic and I really disliked her. I wouldn't have even tried to put the dad in jail, and the dad should've divorced the mom when she started kept on allowing  Grandma around even though Grandma wanted to daughter mutiliated. Just pissed me off.

About season 8, I agree with the poster that said there were way too many personal stories. There were, and it stands out from other seasons because of it. Every character had a personal story, while usually personal stuff was just referenced occasionally. One of the reasons why season 8 is not one of my favorite seasons, although it had some outstanding individual episodes. My favorite episodes from 8 are :

Stalked

Expert 

Baby It's You

Thrill

Blood

Under the Influence 

Denial ( though I hated the ending ) 

Burned

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Divorce (8.16) about Catholic annulments and the two toxic divorce attorneys had so many actors giving it their all, but my favorite moment is during the interrogation of the homeless guy who gave his "mitre" to the doctor for her protection.  Someone knocks at the door of the room and he blithely says, "Come in!"

Edit: My memory was slightly off; as if the interrogation room were his office, he seamlessly calls, "Yes?"

Edited by ChelseaNH
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

The 2 lawyers in Divorce and their back and forth was very funny. Another strong episode in season 8, a lawyer trying to frame their client was a unique plot.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
×