Season 8: Our Guys Didn't Always Win

[TotalDrama]

On 12/22/2021 at 8:56 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I didn't count Connie as the show ended with her still being the ADA.

I wonder why they did that. Oh! And Ben got to leave alive as well! Only STOOPID ASS SVU killed him offscreen.

Hey, if Michael Moriarty didn't want to return, and it seems like he didn't from what I came across, then it makes sense to kill him off screen. Recasting him is out of the question, though I wouldn't have minded that just to have the character on-screen with his son and daughter and as long as the actor is a dead on look-alike to give consistency with the looks here. The fact we don't see that family together or even the mother was lackluster to the whole thing. But Michael left L&O on bad terms and if he couldn't make amends over twenty years later to appear on one of the spinoffs or even Chicago Justice to give his character some arc with his established children, then that's just pitiful on his end. I surely would have loved to see him and Jack meet. At least they had Jack be the one to give his eulogy and knew of him. I wonder how many if any attempts were made to bring him back to L&O post-Season 4. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by TotalDrama

[GHScorpiosRule]

While Moriarty left on bad terms, he was still willing to participate in the special features and interviews for the dvds, which were made when the show was in its 13th season.

An actor doesn’t need to return to the show if they don’t want to; I think killing them off is just lazy. Ben Stone could have remained alive in offscreenville.

And it was already stated that Ben was divorced. What I loved about the mothership was not delving too much into the personal lives of the characters.

[TotalDrama]

40 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

While Moriarty left on bad terms, he was still willing to participate in the special features and interviews for the dvds, which were made when the show was in its 13th season.

An actor doesn’t need to return to the show if they don’t want to; I think killing them off is just lazy. Ben Stone could have remained alive in offscreenville.

And it was already stated that Ben was divorced. What I loved about the mothership was not delving too much into the personal lives of the characters.

Michael is just sad. All those years later and he couldn't just let by gones be by gones and make some guest appearances? Ugh these actors I swear have to make things so difficult. 

Well they gave him a son on Chicago Justice so at that point, him not being seen would have looked a bit awkward unless he was dead. Killing him off was the best decision they could do. Chicago Justice probably would have done it had it not got cancelled, so they had SVU do it when transitioning Peter over to the L&O side of things which was a nice way to bring him into the mix. And yes, Ben was divorced, but Peter's mother could still be seen since she could still be alive for all we know. A missed opportunity showing her could have been in Chicago Justice maybe living in the city with Peter to perhaps explain why he was there and not New York City. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by TotalDrama

[Xeliou66]

Harvest was on today, this is a really good episode, I really liked the investigation into the organ harvesting doctor and the detective work, I liked the investigation into both the shooter and the doctor. I thought the shooter’s lawyer was dumb to decline the DA’s offer where the shooter could be out in 12 years, they had overwhelming evidence, it wasn’t smart of him to hang it all on trying to convince the jury the doctor was solely responsible for the victim’s death. The doctor was a real smug piece of shit and I loved Jack’s cross examination of him, where he sprung it on him that he knew he gave the victim morphine. 

[Xeliou66]

I watched Expert tonight, I love this episode, one of season 8’s best. Some really great detective work in figuring out the shooter was a woman and tracking her down and then tracking down how she had access to the gun, and some great legal stuff as well. I loved Jack going after Mayer on the stand and how he exposed him as a fraud. The killer was just evil IMO, as was her double murderer dad, both of them were using a phony defense and killed innocent people.

Schiff had some good lines as always - “better a doctor than a fellow lawyer” when Jack and him were discussing why the daughter didn’t go after her dad’s lawyer. Also loved Lennie’s “relax, we’re not the pretzel police” line when talking to the pretzel vendor outside the restaurant. 

[Halting Hex]

On 1/27/2022 at 12:57 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Harvest was on today, this is a really good episode, I really liked the investigation into the organ harvesting doctor and the detective work, I liked the investigation into both the shooter and the doctor. I thought the shooter’s lawyer was dumb to decline the DA’s offer where the shooter could be out in 12 years, they had overwhelming evidence, it wasn’t smart of him to hang it all on trying to convince the jury the doctor was solely responsible for the victim’s death. The doctor was a real smug piece of shit and I loved Jack’s cross examination of him, where he sprung it on him that he knew he gave the victim morphine. 

Well, the lawyer was furious because of Jamie's unethical conduct, so he wasn't in the most-receptive mood.  And I thought the verdict was ridiculous:  Jack's "argument" was that what happened at the hospital was something the shooter could have foreseen might happen, so sending the wife to the hospital was Reckless Disregard.

Really?  A doctor butchering his patients for spare parts is something the shooter could have foreseen?  Only if old wives' tales are accepted medical fact.  Why don't you prosecute the shooter for not caring that the hospital might treat his victim with leeches?  Or that she might be judged a witch and not float?  He had a reasonable expectation that hospitals are manned by responsible doctors, not sociopathic butchers.  What he actually did is one thing (assault, gun possession, attempted murder), but to hold him responsible for actions Dr. Michael Nouri undertook completely independently is IMO ridiculous.

Which is why the lawyer* should have either moved for severance or if he did and the judge rejected it (I forget), he's got a damn good appeal, because that smells like reversible error.  There's no way the two defendants conspired (they didn't even know of each other's existence), and Jack's only trying them together to smear each one with the other's actions.  Basic guilt-by-association.  Good for Jack that the cases weren't severed, but he just got lucky, IMO.

*-This role is our introduction to Robert Stanton, later the psychic in "Seer" and the father in "Avatar".  I'm always impressed by actors who come across as complete wimps on screen, but can weaponize it to make roles work.  (Craig Wasson in Body Double is IMO the classic example.)

[Ailianna]

Actually, while normally the doctor's actions would be negligence and this was reckless (so the doctor would be civilly but not criminally liable), the law DOES recognize that it is reasonably foreseeable that there will be medical mistakes or malpractice in a hospital, so if you shoot someone and they only die because of medical incompetence, you are legally responsible for their death. He could have been charged with murder in real life, since she wouldn't have been in position to be in competently treated if he didn't shoot her.

[balmz]

the guy who did shoot her got off easy with the man 1 offer, probably too easy tbh, that being said, i do wonder if he had grounds for appeal since his lawyer had a beef with jamie, and the guy said to make the deal in front of jack and her, and he refused to and started a big thing 

 

don't think he really deserved the man 1 offer but again i do wonder if that could be grounds for appeal

[Halting Hex]

On 2/5/2022 at 12:17 PM, Ailianna said:

the law DOES recognize that it is reasonably foreseeable that there will be medical mistakes or malpractice in a hospital,

Well, that's disappointing.  Not so much that defendants get a rough deal, but that medical incompetence is judged sufficiently endemic to be recognized in the law.  I wouldn't expect perfection of physicians (sometimes they just don't have enough information to make the right decision), but I'd like think that outright malpractice (or worse, in this case) would be a rather rare bird.  Thanks, though.

(I spent 5 weeks in December/January getting treated; two in the hospital, followed by three in rehab.  I think they didn't f*ck up…at least not too badly.  Fingers crossed, I guess.)

[Halting Hex]

On 2/5/2022 at 6:45 PM, balmz said:

i do wonder if [the defendant] had grounds for appeal since his lawyer had a beef with jamie, and the guy said to make the deal in front of jack and her, and he refused to and started a big thing 

Good point.  I guess that's part of why running cons (such as Jamie did) is considered unethical, as it can influence opposing counsel to make poor decisions as in this case, and prosecutors are supposed to serve all of the people, including by making sure defendants have competent representation.

I suppose that's more indication of Jamie's defense counsel background, since defense's primary obligation is to their client;  if a D.A. makes a botch, that's good news.  Defense attorneys have no parallel responsibility to ensure the state makes its best case.  Not as blatant as when she tried to massage expert testimony in one of her early episodes, but still.

[TakomaSnark]

On 12/24/2021 at 3:18 PM, TotalDrama said:

Hey, if Michael Moriarty didn't want to return, and it seems like he didn't from what I came across, then it makes sense to kill him off screen. Recasting him is out of the question, though I wouldn't have minded that just to have the character on-screen with his son and daughter and as long as the actor is a dead on look-alike to give consistency with the looks here. The fact we don't see that family together or even the mother was lackluster to the whole thing. But Michael left L&O on bad terms and if he couldn't make amends over twenty years later to appear on one of the spinoffs or even Chicago Justice to give his character some arc with his established children, then that's just pitiful on his end. I surely would have loved to see him and Jack meet. At least they had Jack be the one to give his eulogy and knew of him. I wonder how many if any attempts were made to bring him back to L&O post-Season 4. 

A bit late to this but Michael Moriarty has severe mental illness and they had a very hard time filming with him in his final season, including his refusing to film with other actors in scenes because he thought they were "stealing his energy." It's discussed on These Are Their Stories's podcast on the 'Mayhem' episode, which broke format to deal with Moriarty's unavailability at the time.

Discussion starts around 26:00.

"L&O: LORENA BOBBITT, SON OF SAM, A DEADLY BURRITO...AND MICHAEL MORIARTY GOES CRAZY"

ETA: In recent years, MM was doing political blogging and it's just simply mind-boggling how off the ledge he went: Racist stuff about the Obamas, Muslims, African Americans, plus convinced the Illuminati controls everything and a big dose of Antisemitism. He's pretty much retired to Canada and really is in no condition to be in front of cameras again. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by TakomaSnark

[GHScorpiosRule]

59 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

ETA: In recent years, MM was doing political blogging and it's just simply mind-boggling how off the ledge he went: Racist stuff about the Obamas, Muslims, African Americans, plus convinced the Illuminati controls everything and a big dose of Antisemitism. He's pretty much retired to Canada and really is in no condition to be in front of cameras again. 

I knew he went Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, but I didn't know this. Amazing that he seemed sane in the season one dvd extras, which were made roughly around 2003. Well Dann Florek said something about how it's been 13 years. Then again, who knows when all the interviews were filmed.

I have no problem separating Ben Stone from Michael Moriarty.

[TakomaSnark]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I knew he went Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, but I didn't know this. Amazing that he seemed sane in the season one dvd extras, which were made roughly around 2003. Well Dann Florek said something about how it's been 13 years. Then again, who knows when all the interviews were filmed.

I have no problem separating Ben Stone from Michael Moriarty.

Oh yeah. I'm not sure when he started but I became aware of it after 2016 and followed his posts for a while just because they were so disturbing I couldn't take my eyes off of them. The last time he blogged at Conservative Base was 2019, with a piece about the Illuminati murdering JFK and the New World Order and open borders and the Bush family and the United Nations and... Aiyeeeeeee. 

I do still laugh thinking about who on the L&O crew was designated to hold the aluminum pie dish opposite MM during filming.

[illdoc]

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Amazing that he seemed sane in the season one dvd extras,

It's the season 2 extras (which is odd since they cover (only) the first 3 seasons. You'd think it would be on the season 3 extras DVD). But, yes, the interviews were done around season 13.

[GHScorpiosRule]

19 minutes ago, illdoc said:

It's the season 2 extras (which is odd since they cover (only) the first 3 seasons. You'd think it would be on the season 3 extras DVD). But, yes, the interviews were done around season 13.

D'OH! You're right. They covered only the first three seasons. And I really wanted to hear from Paul Sorvino, Carolyn McCormick (after all, she made the opening credits in the second and third seasons, even if we didn't see her face), Stephen Hill!

I only have the first five seasons, but are there any subsequent interviews with other cast members in their seasons? And I'm thinking we need to take this discussion to the DVD thread!

[Xeliou66]

I saw Stalker today, this is a strong episode, and I felt horrible for the woman who was being stalked and was later murdered by the nutbag stalker. And I thought Lennie was treated unfairly, with both Van Buren and Curtis accusing him of committing perjury, when he just gave his opinion, and I left the episode unsure of where the fall down the stairs at the start of the episode was an attack or staged - there were holes in the victim’s story, but she never admitted to it being staged and she was quite convincing in insisting she was attacked. I thought it was unfair for Van Buren and Curtis to jump down Lennie’s throat for changing his story, and I absolutely loved high and mighty Curtis getting his ass handed to him on a silver platter on cross examination by Jack when Jack revealed Curtis told the hospital the victim didn’t make it up. It was glorious to see the holier than thou jackass Curtis get torn to shreds. Really good episode, and it leaves you contemplating whether or not the first incident was an attack or a hoax. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I saw Stalker today, this is a strong episode, and I felt horrible for the woman who was being stalked and was later murdered by the nutbag stalker. And I thought Lennie was treated unfairly, with both Van Buren and Curtis accusing him of committing perjury, when he just gave his opinion, and I left the episode unsure of where the fall down the stairs at the start of the episode was an attack or staged - there were holes in the victim’s story, but she never admitted to it being staged and she was quite convincing in insisting she was attacked. I thought it was unfair for Van Buren and Curtis to jump down Lennie’s throat for changing his story, and I absolutely loved high and mighty Curtis getting his ass handed to him on a silver platter on cross examination by Jack when Jack revealed Curtis told the hospital the victim didn’t make it up. It was glorious to see the holier than thou jackass Curtis get torn to shreds. Really good episode, and it leaves you contemplating whether or not the first incident was an attack or a hoax. 

Saw this as well and couldn’t agree more!

And as an aside, I paid close attention to the musical score and they only played it four times. Most before going to commercial and for only about 20 seconds. And it wasn’t the depressing ominous music that was used in the latter seasons (I think from 16-20) that was used in Criminal Intent. And the shows without all that music overwhelming the episodes were much better.

[GHScorpiosRule]

So this season started over the weekend, and BLEAGH!!!! to "Denial" which ALWAYS pisses me off because the jury was so bloody stoopid.

This was the first appearance of Skoda. Simmons had appeared as some tech in season 4's "Sanctuary" so that doesn't count.

Jack should have put him on the stand so Skoda could testify what a narcissistic bitch that twat, Christina was. And that the jury couldn't see Tommy for the mealy-mouthed pathetic, yet indifferent asshole he was. At least Marty in "Precious" had a conscience in the end. Gardner probably didn't put that heinous murderer on the stand because Jack would have ripped her to shreds.

That the jury couldn't infer that Daddy "confessed" to protect his daughter made them look like MORONS.

If they didn't want the baby, there was nothing to stop her from getting an abortion. Daddy would have paid for it. Or wouldn't have blinked an eye if she'd used his credit card to pay for it; she was 17; didn't need parental approval.

"But we're in looooove" she says to the arraignment judge, who slapped them down, but good.

[Xeliou66]

I saw Faccia a Faccia today, this is one of the best season 8 episodes, and maybe my favorite mob episode of L&O - the scene where Skoda mocks Napoli and calls him the “diaper don” is awesome and hilarious. A great intricate plot - I liked the twist of how DeMaio didn’t do the actual killing but was in on it with the daughter of one of the victims of the murdered hitman, and I liked how they referenced Frank Masucci, the mob don from season 1’s The Torrents of Greed. The ending was quite memorable when Napoli suddenly revealed he knew exactly what was going on all along, it wasn’t surprising but it was still memorable, and Schiff was great at the end as well “happy faces everybody”. 

[katie9918]

On 3/22/2022 at 10:21 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

So this season started over the weekend, and BLEAGH!!!! to "Denial" which ALWAYS pisses me off because the jury was so bloody stoopid.

This was the first appearance of Skoda. Simmons had appeared as some tech in season 4's "Sanctuary" so that doesn't count.

Jack should have put him on the stand so Skoda could testify what a narcissistic bitch that twat, Christina was. And that the jury couldn't see Tommy for the mealy-mouthed pathetic, yet indifferent asshole he was. At least Marty in "Precious" had a conscience in the end. Gardner probably didn't put that heinous murderer on the stand because Jack would have ripped her to shreds.

That the jury couldn't infer that Daddy "confessed" to protect his daughter made them look like MORONS.

If they didn't want the baby, there was nothing to stop her from getting an abortion. Daddy would have paid for it. Or wouldn't have blinked an eye if she'd used his credit card to pay for it; she was 17; didn't need parental approval.

"But we're in looooove" she says to the arraignment judge, who slapped them down, but good.

Despite all of the great performances (I’m not sure there was anyone who didn’t make the absolute most of what they were given) and the fact that it’s my beloved Skoda’s first appearance, I can’t rewatch this one too often because the whole thing just makes me sick.

 

If I was Jack, I would have left the father to rot for the full thirty days if it was the only thing he could do to assign some responsibility for the murder of that poor baby.

 

Not putting Skoda on the stand was a real head-scratcher to me as well. At the very least he could have scored some points by saying exactly what he said in the office a couple of times.

 

This was one time I was really angry at Adam at the end. I know there wasn’t much he could do, but he could have shrugged and let Jack keep the father in jail for the max rather than shrugged and said, “Meh, let him go home.”

 

I can’t remember if Jamie did anything specifically awesome, but she’s generally awesome (with some exceptions), so I’ll assume she was great.

[andromeda331]

On 3/22/2022 at 5:15 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I saw Faccia a Faccia today, this is one of the best season 8 episodes, and maybe my favorite mob episode of L&O - the scene where Skoda mocks Napoli and calls him the “diaper don” is awesome and hilarious. A great intricate plot - I liked the twist of how DeMaio didn’t do the actual killing but was in on it with the daughter of one of the victims of the murdered hitman, and I liked how they referenced Frank Masucci, the mob don from season 1’s The Torrents of Greed. The ending was quite memorable when Napoli suddenly revealed he knew exactly what was going on all along, it wasn’t surprising but it was still memorable, and Schiff was great at the end as well “happy faces everybody”. 

That's one of my favorite mob episodes too. That scene with the diaper don and Skoda was hilarious. I liked that the daughter was the murderer. She did it because she was ticked he was going to write a book and make money off who he killed. I also liked the judge rejecting the mobster was too ill to stand trial pointing out that he would probably have miraculous recovery as soon as the trial was over.

[Xeliou66]

2 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

That's one of my favorite mob episodes too. That scene with the diaper don and Skoda was hilarious. I liked that the daughter was the murderer. She did it because she was ticked he was going to write a book and make money off who he killed. I also liked the judge rejecting the mobster was too ill to stand trial pointing out that he would probably have miraculous recovery as soon as the trial was over.

Yeah it’s a great episode, I liked how they were still able to get Napoli even though he didn’t know the daughter was the killer, because Napoli conspired with DeMaio to commit the murder and DeMaio then conspired with the daughter. It was very memorable how Napoli held up his 2 fingers at the end when they said he was going to prison for 2 years, revealing that he was fully aware of everything going on around him. And yes that scene where Skoda mocks Napoli is one of my all time favorite scenes, hilarious.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Xeliou66

[andromeda331]

1 minute ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah it’s a great episode, I liked how they were still able to get Napoli even though he didn’t know the daughter was the killer, because Napoli conspired with DeMaio to commit the murder and DeMaio then conspired with the daughter. It was very memorable how Napoli held up his 2 fingers at the end when they said he was going to prison for 2 years, revealing that he was fully aware of everything going on around him. And yes that scene where Skoda mocks Napoli is one of my all time favorite scenes.

So do I. It was a very creative way to get him. I love when Skoda mocks him Napoli's son gets ticked and is the one who accidentally revealed his father was fine. 

[Columbo]

I'm only halfway through re-watching season 8 and the main thing I've taken away from it so far is the pervading sense of anger throughout the episodes. Everybody seems to be raising their voices just that little bit louder, judges are starting to be a bit more beligerent in their words, and just the whole atmosphere seems to be tainted with a sort of negative energy. Which I know sounds weird considering it's a crime show. But previous seasons there's always been a sense that all the lawyers and police know the life they are in and do their best to accommodate that. But all the anger, all the negativity of this season seems rather personal.

I like to think Jamie Ross was what would an older and wiser Claire Kincaid would have been like if she hasn't died.

 

[Xeliou66]

Blood was just on, the killer was such an evil racist witch, she was an epic piece of shit, she hated her son because he was part black and she made her ex husband believe her son was the killer, and her defense was such an epic fraud. I was glad they realized just how deep her bigotry went and I had no problem with Jack making her believe her husband was going to testify against her. Fuck her and I hope she rotted in prison. Jack was right when he said it was a hate crime.

Really good episode and of course I love Van Buren’s “hello my brother” when talking to Burdette, but the killer ex wife is one of the villains I hate the most on L&O.

[andromeda331]

On 6/3/2022 at 4:15 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Blood was just on, the killer was such an evil racist witch, she was an epic piece of shit, she hated her son because he was part black and she made her ex husband believe her son was the killer, and her defense was such an epic fraud. I was glad they realized just how deep her bigotry went and I had no problem with Jack making her believe her husband was going to testify against her. Fuck her and I hope she rotted in prison. Jack was right when he said it was a hate crime.

Really good episode and of course I love Van Buren’s “hello my brother” when talking to Burdette, but the killer ex wife is one of the villains I hate the most on L&O.

Mine too. To the point she had to be forced to take her own child? I have doubts that he doesn't know how she feels about him. There's no way she could be that racist and not say anything or act like loving parent. I also like when she's testifying about the school she sends her son to and Jack asks who's idea it was to send him there.

[Xeliou66]

35 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Mine too. To the point she had to be forced to take her own child? I have doubts that he doesn't know how she feels about him. There's no way she could be that racist and not say anything or act like loving parent. I also like when she's testifying about the school she sends her son to and Jack asks who's idea it was to send him there.

Yes I agree that the son likely knew what a racist bitch his mom was, I hope the son was able to lead a decent life given that his mom was an awful murderer and his dad was kind of spineless, he didn’t have the guts to tell the truth about any of it and wanted to hide his ethnicity at any cost, although the main reason he lied to the detectives was because the killer ex made him believe the son was guilty. The mom was such a piece of shit, and I liked how Jack questioned her about sending her son to what was basically an all white school as well. Such a good episode, and the killer was just evil. 

[andromeda331]

12 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes I agree that the son likely knew what a racist bitch his mom was, I hope the son was able to lead a decent life given that his mom was an awful murderer and his dad was kind of spineless, he didn’t have the guts to tell the truth about any of it and wanted to hide his ethnicity at any cost, although the main reason he lied to the detectives was because the killer ex made him believe the son was guilty. The mom was such a piece of shit, and I liked how Jack questioned her about sending her son to what was basically an all white school as well. Such a good episode, and the killer was just evil. 

I hope he does too. I can't believe how spineless his dad was. To the point his was willing to and able to convince his wife to put their baby up for adoption. Willing to pay extra money to make his racist ex-wife have primary custody of their son? He should have kept his son and hired a decent nanny for when he was away. I wonder how his son feels about his baby half-sister. He knows she was given up because of the color of her skin and he was kept because the color of his? Hope he has a good therapist he's going to need it. 

[Xeliou66]

6 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I hope he does too. I can't believe how spineless his dad was. To the point his was willing to and able to convince his wife to put their baby up for adoption. Willing to pay extra money to make his racist ex-wife have primary custody of their son? He should have kept his son and hired a decent nanny for when he was away. I wonder how his son feels about his baby half-sister. He knows she was given up because of the color of her skin and he was kept because the color of his? Hope he has a good therapist he's going to need it. 

Yep the dad was totally spineless, I agree he should’ve taken custody of his son instead of letting the worthless racist witch ex wife who hated him because of his ethnicity take custody. 

[Xeliou66]

I watched Stalker today and I love seeing Curtis’ hypocritical ass get exposed while testifying, and I feel Briscoe was treated really unfairly by Van Buren and Curtis in this one. I liked how the episode left it up to the viewer to decide whether the first incident on the stairwell was real or faked. I thought Briscoe’s version of events was plausible, and the victim never said she made up the story and was genuinely terrified and upset that they didn’t believe her, yes Lennie only changed his story once she was killed but I thought it was unfair of Van Buren to blatantly accuse him of perjury, and for Curtis to get all holier than thou with him. I loved seeing Jack shred Rey on cross at trial, he was so hypocritical (not the first time he was a massive hypocrite) and smug that it was very satisfying to see him knocked down a few pegs. I was very glad that the jury convicted Lowry’s murderous creepy ass on both counts, and I was very annoyed with Curtis and Van Buren. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

17 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I liked how the episode left it up to the viewer to decide whether the first incident on the stairwell was real or faked. I thought Briscoe’s version of events was plausible, and the victim never said she made up the story and was genuinely terrified and upset that they didn’t believe her,

I don't think they did leave it up to the viewer. It was because of the trash building up or something that contradicted what she told them about what she was doing that night, that led to them telling her she made a false report.

But I don't blame her. She needed to do something to make the cops DO something about Giovanni. Had they continued to investigate, she wouldn't have been killed.

And I'm still confused how cops saying they made a mistake is the same as "thisclose to perjury." Lennie didn't lie. He said they made a mistake in not believing her, and so when she was killed, he felt he had to make it right.

But Rey was always a self-righteous, arrogant asshole, who only saw things in black and white. 

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don't think they did leave it up to the viewer. It was because of the trash building up or something that contradicted what she told them about what she was doing that night, that led to them telling her she made a false report.

But I don't blame her. She needed to do something to make the cops DO something about Giovanni. Had they continued to investigate, she wouldn't have been killed.

And I'm still confused how cops saying they made a mistake is the same as "thisclose to perjury." Lennie didn't lie. He said they made a mistake in not believing her, and so when she was killed, he felt he had to make it right.

But Rey was always a self-righteous, arrogant asshole, who only saw things in black and white. 

I think they did leave it up to the viewer - she never admitted to faking the first fall, and it wasn’t impossible for her story to be true. We don’t know for sure whether the fall was real or faked, that’s why I thought Lennie was treated unfairly by Van Buren and Curtis.  

[andromeda331]

15 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I think they did leave it up to the viewer - she never admitted to faking the first fall, and it wasn’t impossible for her story to be true. We don’t know for sure whether the fall was real or faked, that’s why I thought Lennie was treated unfairly by Van Buren and Curtis.  

So do I. After she's murdered Lennie's clearly effected by it. Which makes sense. He had someone alive and she wasn't believed who was murdered. He wanted to try and get justice for her. It was possible she was telling truth. Van Buren was really out of character in the episode. Curtis is normal because he's always his. He's such an asshole.

[GHScorpiosRule]

21 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I think they did leave it up to the viewer - she never admitted to faking the first fall, and it wasn’t impossible for her story to be true. We don’t know for sure whether the fall was real or faked, that’s why I thought Lennie was treated unfairly by Van Buren and Curtis.  

6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

So do I. After she's murdered Lennie's clearly effected by it. Which makes sense. He had someone alive and she wasn't believed who was murdered. He wanted to try and get justice for her. It was possible she was telling truth. Van Buren was really out of character in the episode. Curtis is normal because he's always his. He's such an asshole.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Lennie feeling guilty because he didn't believe her  and that her murder affected him doesn't mean she was telling the truth about that first attack. She was super obsessive compulsive-she kept her kitchen s*** span clean, so her telling them her garbage was getting overfilled or was half-filled, didn't line up. And then her landlord had been complaining about the garbage. And if the report went through that she filed a false report about the attack, it would have led to the hospital firing her because they added extra security. So while Rey was all paternalistic about her reasons for lying, he didn't want her fired so he lied to the hospital about her making a false report.

Either way, not a good look for the cops, and especially not Van Buren. Rey was always an asshole, so par for the course for him.

[Xeliou66]

I just watched Expert, I love this episode, fantastic from start to finish. Some really great detective work in figuring out who the target was, figuring out the shooter was a woman and tracking her down. I liked Briscoe/Curtis visiting the motel in Binghamton and I liked them talking to the pretzel guy outside the restaurant and Lennie’s “relax, we’re not the pretzel police”. Some good legal stuff as well, I liked the courtroom scenes and how they proved Mayer, and the defense, was a fraud. Skoda was good as always. This might be my favorite season 8 episode, a great case with a lot of good twists and turns, and it didn’t have any personal stuff that weakened some other season 8 episodes, vintage L&O. 

[andromeda331]

That has my all time favorite Law & Order opening with the gun shots and suddenly two mafia/gangster guys jumping up and running towards the bathroom and the guy coming out shocked that they missed. 

[Xeliou66]

13 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

That has my all time favorite Law & Order opening with the gun shots and suddenly two mafia/gangster guys jumping up and running towards the bathroom and the guy coming out shocked that they missed. 

Yeah that’s a great opening, and it turned out it was just a red herring and those sleazebags had nothing to do with the murder. I love the detective work in this episode, and the legal stuff as well, I think it’s my favorite episode of season 8.

[Halting Hex]

Re "Denial":

On 3/24/2022 at 4:55 PM, katie9918 said:

Despite all of the great performances (I’m not sure there was anyone who didn’t make the absolute most of what they were given)

The strangest part is that this is literally the only IMDb credit for Mags Chernock, who played Christina.  I don't know if she's worked in commercials or on stage, but as far as film goes, this is it.

Which surprises me, given that it's a decent-sized part, she does well, and she didn't lack for looks.  (Yes, that's shallow, but casting probably takes it into account, let's be honest.) As I wrote, I find it strange.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah that’s a great opening, and it turned out it was just a red herring and those sleazebags had nothing to do with the murder. 

No, they don't. But I love that they assume it was for them.

Quote

I love the detective work in this episode, and the legal stuff as well, I think it’s my favorite episode of season 8.

Both parts were really good. The daughter was so delusional about her father. I love how they figure out the expert was a quack.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 6/4/2022 at 7:51 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Yep the dad was totally spineless, I agree he should’ve taken custody of his son instead of letting the worthless racist witch ex wife who hated him because of his ethnicity take custody. 

"Hello, mah brotha."

Like, you can see where the guy was coming from, because it was a different time when he was younger and just getting started, but that he leaves his son to grow up with a mother who hates him (no matter how subtly) both because of being mixed race and because she was lied to for however many years makes him weak. The new wife died because she'd decided she wanted to keep her kid, not go through with the adoption, so it makes me wonder when he decided to just be honest, because he'd have had to after the new kid was born.

Trivia: Harry O' Reilly, who played the would-be adoptive father, was in the short-lived show Homefront, portraying Charlie Halley.

[GHScorpiosRule]

26 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Trivia: Harry O' Reilly, who played the would-be adoptive father, was in the short-lived show Homefront, portraying Charlie Halley.

He also played the uniform cop in the first season of this show-the one who found the victims’ bodies, or in the cold openings.

[Xeliou66]

Faccia a Faccia was just on, this is perhaps my favorite season 8 episode, Skoda calling Napoli the “diaper don” is downright hilarious, one of the funniest moments in L&O history IMO, and I love the twists about how the wannabe hitman got his girlfriend, the daughter of one of the people killed by the victim, to kill the victim and how they were able to figure it all out and nail Napoli, and how Napoli revealed himself to be lucid all along at the end. And then the DA’s getting ready to field questions from the media at the end and Schiff saying “happy faces everybody” vintage Adam. Great episode.

[Spartan Girl]

“Disappeared” is on. As usual, Melnick can take a long walk off a short pier—and that goes double for her client and his stupid brother for blaming Jamie for the fact that his psycho brother refuses to plead insanity and actually wanted the death penalty.

[GHScorpiosRule]

What the HELL? WE stopped with episode 20 and went straight to 13 with the Rohmbot!🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

What the HELL? WE stopped with episode 20 and went straight to 13 with the Rohmbot!🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

I noticed that as well, but I dislike the end of season 8, too much personal crap and Monster is one of my least favorite episodes of all time, so I don’t really care that they skipped it.

On 9/5/2022 at 6:37 PM, Spartan Girl said:

“Disappeared” is on. As usual, Melnick can take a long walk off a short pier—and that goes double for her client and his stupid brother for blaming Jamie for the fact that his psycho brother refuses to plead insanity and actually wanted the death penalty.

Melnick is just so damn self righteous every time she appeared, she drove me nuts.

[andromeda331]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I noticed that as well, but I dislike the end of season 8, too much personal crap and Monster is one of my least favorite episodes of all time, so I don’t really care that they skipped it.

Melnick is just so damn self righteous every time she appeared, she drove me nuts.

Me too. I hated her so much. She was so horrible.

[andromeda331]

On 9/2/2022 at 6:19 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Faccia a Faccia was just on, this is perhaps my favorite season 8 episode, Skoda calling Napoli the “diaper don” is downright hilarious, one of the funniest moments in L&O history IMO, and I love the twists about how the wannabe hitman got his girlfriend, the daughter of one of the people killed by the victim, to kill the victim and how they were able to figure it all out and nail Napoli, and how Napoli revealed himself to be lucid all along at the end. And then the DA’s getting ready to field questions from the media at the end and Schiff saying “happy faces everybody” vintage Adam. Great episode.

That's one of my favorite episodes. Skoda was hilarious with the Diaper Don and I loved that the judge didn't buy it either. Pointing out he would probably have a miracelous recovery if the charges were dropped. I liked who the murderer and why she killed the author. While murdering him was wrong it had to be hard to read all about her father's murder in the book and all the publicity around the book. I love Adam's happy faces. 

I also really like Thrill although I think the girl should have been charged with something. She helped load the bullets for the guys. The guy lawyer was such an idiot. I love the judge's response when he asked to undo separating the cases. The arrogent guy certainly wasn't so arrogent at the end of the episode. I feel so bad for the victim and his parents. He was murdered for the thrill of it. Shot several times and then pulled out of the car so his murderers could watch him die. I don't like the comment about what it says about those who couldn't forgive the person who murdered their son. It's great for those who can forgive the murderer but I don't think it says anything. Having your son murdered? There's not much worse then that.  

On 9/5/2022 at 4:37 PM, Spartan Girl said:

“Disappeared” is on. As usual, Melnick can take a long walk off a short pier—and that goes double for her client and his stupid brother for blaming Jamie for the fact that his psycho brother refuses to plead insanity and actually wanted the death penalty.

I hate both the murderer and his brother. He killed two people! He made their son an orphan. His brother was an asshole. Jamie did what she promised. They did consider his mental illness but weighed that against the crime and his brother refused to use his mental illness as a defense. Their hands were tied. The brother also repeatedly lied to them. Then during the trial did everything he could to get his brother off. Why? So he could go kill more people? 

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

That's one of my favorite episodes. Skoda was hilarious with the Diaper Don and I loved that the judge didn't buy it either. Pointing out he would probably have a miracelous recovery if the charges were dropped. I liked who the murderer and why she killed the author. While murdering him was wrong it had to be hard to read all about her father's murder in the book and all the publicity around the book. I love Adam's happy faces. 

I also really like Thrill although I think the girl should have been charged with something. She helped load the bullets for the guys. The guy lawyer was such an idiot. I love the judge's response when he asked to undo separating the cases. The arrogent guy certainly wasn't so arrogent at the end of the episode. I feel so bad for the victim and his parents. He was murdered for the thrill of it. Shot several times and then pulled out of the car so his murderers could watch him die. I don't like the comment about what it says about those who couldn't forgive the person who murdered their son. It's great for those who can forgive the murderer but I don't think it says anything. Having your son murdered? There's not much worse then that.  

I hate both the murderer and his brother. He killed two people! He made their son an orphan. His brother was an asshole. Jamie did what she promised. They did consider his mental illness but weighed that against the crime and his brother refused to use his mental illness as a defense. Their hands were tied. The brother also repeatedly lied to them. Then during the trial did everything he could to get his brother off. Why? So he could go kill more people? 

Yeah Faccia a Faccia is a great episode, I liked all of the investigation and I loved Skoda insulting the Diaper Don, that worked perfectly and is one of my favorite moments for Skoda. I did feel some sympathy for the woman who killed the hitman, that had to be hard having her father murdered by the hitman and then knowing he might write a book about it and profit from his crimes. The wannabe hitman who claimed to have committed the murder was an interesting character. The ending was very memorable with the Don suddenly showing that he was lucid and sane all along.

I like Thrill as well, although I hated sanctimonious jackass Curtis, he had no business going to McCoy and trying to tell Jack what to do about the confession just because trying to use it offended Curtis’ religious beliefs, Curtis needed to fuck off. It was a difficult and interesting issue about the confession that I could see both sides of, but Curtis had no business trying to boss around the DA’s office. I felt horrible for the victim and his parents, and I for one certainly couldn’t forgive scum like that if one of my loved ones was killed for no reason.

The guy in Disappeared actually killed 3 people, and yeah his brother was irritating, the brother obstructed justice and then whined to the DA’s office and acted like they were the bad guys in the whole thing, when it was the killer who was refusing to plead insanity or led evidence of his illness be introduced. 

[andromeda331]

On 9/22/2022 at 9:42 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah Faccia a Faccia is a great episode, I liked all of the investigation and I loved Skoda insulting the Diaper Don, that worked perfectly and is one of my favorite moments for Skoda. I did feel some sympathy for the woman who killed the hitman, that had to be hard having her father murdered by the hitman and then knowing he might write a book about it and profit from his crimes. The wannabe hitman who claimed to have committed the murder was an interesting character. The ending was very memorable with the Don suddenly showing that he was lucid and sane all along.

It was a great moment for Skoda. He was funny while also proving the Don was lying. I felt bad for the murderer too. Her father being murdered by the hitman was bad enough but learning it could end up in a book basically celebrating the crimes the hitman committed? And making a lot of money from it. She was right too about how people look at the Mob when really they are just a bunch of murderers.

Quote

I like Thrill as well, although I hated sanctimonious jackass Curtis, he had no business going to McCoy and trying to tell Jack what to do about the confession just because trying to use it offended Curtis’ religious beliefs, Curtis needed to fuck off. It was a difficult and interesting issue about the confession that I could see both sides of, but Curtis had no business trying to boss around the DA’s office. I felt horrible for the victim and his parents, and I for one certainly couldn’t forgive scum like that if one of my loved ones was killed for no reason.

Yeah, once again he was an asshole. He couldn't possibly see any side but his own. That's really all he cares about. What affects his own beliefs. He certainly didn't care about the murderer victim. That's what I hated about Curtis it's like at the end of the stalker episode when he makes a remark about Lennie having to live with what he did very sanctimoniously. While Lennie probably lied, his lie helped convict a murderer. He's going to feel fine about it. Lennie at least felt bad about the murderer and tried to do something about it. It's also possible that in light of the victim being murdered that he changed his mind about the stalking or at very least realized she was right since someone killed her. Not Curtis. Nope, that didn't bother him at all.  I like that his parents' pointed out that they were Catholic too. They went to church and believed too. But now the church was hiding the murderer's confession. That had to be hard. While McCoy was going to lose he had a good case (no way the courts were going to go against the church) that no one knew the uncle was a priest when he talked to his nephew. It never once came up and the uncle didn't say anything that would make them think that. He didn't absolve or whatever priest say at the end. I get what the priests said about needing people to be able to come  and confess and stuff it is always hard when it's crime especially murderer. In this case they didn't have any other evidence. I always wonder how a priest feels when they hear murder confession and then see the murderer go free in the courts. 

Quote

The guy in Disappeared actually killed 3 people, and yeah his brother was irritating, the brother obstructed justice and then whined to the DA’s office and acted like they were the bad guys in the whole thing, when it was the killer who was refusing to plead insanity or led evidence of his illness be introduced. 

He really did. They weren't the bad guys. His brother was for murdering three (I forgot about the third person) people. Instead of doing everything he could to get his brother put away and help. He did the opposite. Yeah, jail might not be the best place for him but at least he wouldn't hurt anyone else and there was still plenty of time to convince him to get help. There were jails that did have help with that and the DA might be willing to get him into a mental hospital down the road. 

[Spartan Girl]

3 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

He really did. They weren't the bad guys. His brother was for murdering three (I forgot about the third person) people. Instead of doing everything he could to get his brother put away and help. He did the opposite. Yeah, jail might not be the best place for him but at least he wouldn't hurt anyone else and there was still plenty of time to convince him to get help. There were jails that did have help with that and the DA might be willing to get him into a mental hospital down the road. 

And I really hate to say it, but some people just cannot be helped. He wasn’t just insane, he was fanatical. Perhaps the death penalty would have been kinder.