Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[bijoux]

I don't equate Roy's 'death' with Sara at all. Sara was dead for real for a year. Roy plotted with Felicity and Dig and was revealed to be alive in the same episode he was supposedly killed. It was a twist, and one I really liked. Sara was a take backsie. Which I'm pretty sure wouldn't have happened if they didn't want her for the spin off.

[Morrigan2575]

While I completely don't trust the writers, I do think they're going to make this death stick and have it be a main cast member just because they've gotten called out a lot recently on how little deaths on Arrow matter (not just by fans, but by professional reviewers as well).

 

 

They didn't chicken out on Sara's death.  Sara was dead, dead, dead, dead, if ATOM/Brandon Routh had been able to carry his own show, she'd still be dead.  Sara coming back isn't the writers chickening out or caving, Sara coming back is about DC/WB/Berlanti trying to build a TV Empire and needing to throw a whole bunch of popular/fan favorite characters at the CW to get them to bite.

 

IIRC ATOM was pitched to the CW as early as July/August, the CW wasn't interested at the time.  There were later rumors that Berlanti had dropped ATOM and was instead pitching a Firestorm spin-off (staring Robbie Amell/Victor Garbor).  This might have been true or it might have been the initial swing from ATOM to LoT and then we have the TCAs which included a version of the LoT which is January, and in February we get the LoT announcement).

[Cerulean Blue]

I actually really loved the twist of Roy's death too. It was one of the few times Arrow actually surprised me and the twist felt like an actual, clever twist. But it was still another character who isn't really dead, but just pretend dead or temporarily dead.

 

So I think the writers are going to do a really, for real, legitimately dead character this year, in part just to prove that they're willing to kill off a main character and have it stick. 

 

And with Sara, even though it was motivated by behind-the-scenes, business stuff, the in-narrative effect was that yet another character didn't really die. I guess my point isn't whether or not Roy and Sara's "deaths" were good twists or necessitated by business decisions, but that both showed that on Arrow, "dead" isn't really dead. 

 

ETA to reply to Morrigan2575 as well.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Cerulean Blue

[Trini]

... So I think they might be chomping at the bit to prove how they can kill off--and really, permanently kill off--a main character. Killing off Lyla, Samantha, Alex, William, or any host of recurring characters wouldn't achieve that. Quentin seems likely, but he's too easy. Killing off the one older character with a heart condition isn't particularly ballsy.

 

 

True, they may want to, but I really, really don't think they have the stones to do it, because yes, they've faked out/changed their minds too many times. EVERYONE DIED in the crossover, for instance. If it's a real death, I'll believe it when I see it (and when it sticks for a season). Right now, they not getting the benefit of the doubt from me.

 

Was Moira a regular when she got killed?

[kismet]

Sara coming back to life was simply a forced situation because of the spinoff, so I won't hold that against the writers since if it was up to them I believe that SL would still be dead.

I loved the Roy twist which is why I think they can't have another faked death at this point. Later maybe but not this season.

I don't trust these writers answers, so I feel like they have very little predictive value. What I do trust is their past behavior. And in the past, they have always killed off the easiest character to remove from the story. Maybe not the most obvious but the easiest. **Edited - From these writers' perspective** - Tommy & Moira easy to kill because they had served their plot purpose and provided more dead than alive. Also they would have required additional plotlines outside of thd main Arrow plot. So for streamlining purposes, they were better options.

QL is the most obvious candidate of the main cast. But he is not the easiest to kill. If they killed him, they would have to introduce and cast a new police connection. Plus they'd have to do all of the building a trust between TA & police which I don't think they want to spend time on considering they basically could have done that this year with QL instead they had them forgive each other in one convo that never really addressed the damage done last year.

So if we go on past behavior I think it will be LL because she is the biggest kill without detrimental damage to the story. All the other deaths were shocking and yes the characters are missed but the story didn't have to do much to replace them. Besides some nostalgia and what if scenarios Arrow functions perfectly fine without TM, MQ & SL. I'm almost positive without FS & Dig the show would not function as smoothly. TQ & QL I'm less sure about, but even they would require some type of story adjustment if they were killed. Not so much with LL, this season has almost proved that you can remove LL from every scene &/or plot and there is no difference in the outcome. She is inconsquential to the Arrow stoŕy. If you look at why people think she is safe, it's all the same reasons the writers will use to pat themselves on the back for delivering such a shocking death.

 

EDITED - because after @HappyHarpy's post I noticed that I forgot to say from the writers' perspective. From my personal perspective Tommy & Moira had many more stories left to tell as I have said on many other occasions.

Edited December 12, 2015 by kismet

[nksarmi]

Are we forgetting that this is the show that has really, for real killed Tommy, Robert Queen, Moira Queen, Shado and her father, Mateo and his son, and Ra's a Ghul!  I kind of think it's ridiculous to say death doesn't matter on Arrow.

 

I'm more in the seat of thinking they kill off too many characters.  It's like they were taking a page from Game of Thrones or something and felt like they HAD to kill a few characters each season just for funsies. 

 

Yes, we had the near deaths of Oliver and Thea in the same season, the faked death of Roy that same year, and resurrection of Sara, and the not-dead shrinking of Ray early this season.  But I don't think a single one of those plots means death doesn't matter on Arrow - and this is a show based on comic books!  Comic books are supposed to mean fake deaths, resurrections, and "oh we thought you were dead, but you really lived" stories. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, nobody needs to be in that damn grave for this to be a good season of Arrow.  I feel like the writers are trolling us more than anything and I suspect that's why people want it to be a major death.  Because if we are going to get trolled with it all season - it better be good.  But I don't think there is going to be any major payoff for it.  It's either Quentin or it's a cop-out. 

[tv echo]

I'm still going with Quentin.  I don't think it will be anyone on TA (TGA) because they need to fill up the new, larger Arrow Bunker.

 

I don't think it's Laurel because (I believe) there are still a lot of fans of Laurel and/or BC and it could affect show ratings - at least a little.  IF they wanted to make any changes regarding Laurel, it'd be more likely that she stays alive but becomes a recurring or guest star on all three shows in the Flarrow universe.  I can only see them killing off Laurel if they also hint at the existence of a new BC either in the form of Sara (changing her name) or a future new character (protege). 

 

I mean, yes, they killed Ra's but then replaced him with a new Ra's (Malcolm), so Ra's still exists in this universe.

Edited December 11, 2015 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

And with Sara, even though it was motivated by behind-the-scenes, business stuff, the in-narrative effect was that yet another character didn't really die. I guess my point isn't whether or not Roy and Sara's "deaths" were good twists or necessitated by business decisions, but that both showed that on Arrow, "dead" isn't really dead. 

 

ETA to reply to Morrigan2575 as well.

I have to disagree on this, I can't accuse the writers of being chicken shit in killing a popular character when I know the only reason Sara was brought back was because of a business decision completely independent of Arrow.  

[nksarmi]

kismet - I disagree with you on one note - I think Quentin and Laurel are both easy targets to kill right now.  If Oliver is about to become mayor, it would be relatively easy to introduce a new police connection or DA connection and explain why he's talking to them about crime.  His role as mayor is actually rather perfect in that regards.  So I don't think TA needs an in with Quentin and the police or Laurel and the DA anymore.  So I'd give them about a 50/50 chance for that reason.

 

However, when it comes to emotional impact, I think Quentin pulls waaaaaayyyyyy ahead.  His death would impact Laurel of course, but now that he's dating Donna, it impacts Felicity.  No matter what Oliver would have felt if Quentin died before, I think Donna being head over heels for him would quadruple what TA is wiling to do if Darhk kills him.

 

And while Laurel would be easy to write off the show - at this point, I don't think her death would have even the emotional impact that Tommy's and Moira's would have had.  Personally, I think if they were going to kill Laurel - she would have been getting more story this season, more reason for us to care if/when they do it.  So yea, I really do think it's Quentin.

[Morrigan2575]

How does Laurel's death not have an impact on the other characters?  Last I looked she's Quentin's daughter, Thea's roomie, Diggle and new BFF and Oliver's ex-girlfriend/friend plus she's part of Team Arrow.  She's actually got more connection than Lance, IMO.

 

I can't stand the character or the actress but the emotional impact of Lance dying on the characters (as the show has set up) is minimal compared to Laurel, IMO

Edited December 11, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[nksarmi]

How does Laurel's death not have an impact on the other characters?  Last I looked she's Quentin's daughter, Thea's roomie, Diggle and new BFF and Oliver's ex-girlfriend/friend plus she's part of Team Arrow.  She's actually got more connection than Lance, IMO.

 

I can't stand the character or the actress but the emotional impact of Lance dying on the characters (as the show has set up) is minimal compared to Laurel, IMO

 

Eh I guess it's a millage may vary kind of thing.  But I don't feel like her death would have much impact this season.  Oh and thinking about how Laurel's death would impact Quentin vs the other way around, I think Laurel would survive Quentin's death better than he would survive her's. Not because Laurel is cold and callous or anything, but because I don't care how much Laurel tells him she's a grown up and he can't protect her - he would be crushed by her death.  And he'd do something stupid and get himself killed too.

[BunsenBurner]

Laurel is my candidate for the grave. She brought back Sara and she must pay the price for changing history. I think she knows (as an actress) and has finally accepted that she is not coming back next year. I believe it has actually allowed her to become a better Laurel on camera.

[Morrigan2575]

Eh I guess it's a millage may vary kind of thing.  But I don't feel like her death would have much impact this season.  Oh and thinking about how Laurel's death would impact Quentin vs the other way around, I think Laurel would survive Quentin's death better than he would survive her's. Not because Laurel is cold and callous or anything, but because I don't care how much Laurel tells him she's a grown up and he can't protect her - he would be crushed by her death.  And he'd do something stupid and get himself killed too.

Must be because while I would cheer and clap if Laurel finally disappears from this show forever (death or bus out of town I don't really care).  I can't see how the characters themselves would be more emotionally impacted by Lance's death than Laurel's.  

[calliope1975]

Laurel is my candidate for the grave. She brought back Sara and she must pay the price for changing history. I think she knows (as an actress) and has finally accepted that she is not coming back next year. I believe it has actually allowed her to become a better Laurel on camera.

 

I would like this to be the case because, personal bias aside, TPTB keep saying that there are consequences to playing with life and death (e.g. the LP and Barry's time travel.) That consequence should be major, and if they are going to Final Destination this show, Laurel would have the most emotional impact on the characters (though perhaps not the viewers) outside of Felicity or Diggle, which imo, would be such a serious, risky blow, I don't know if the show could recover. 

[kismet]

kismet - I disagree with you on one note - I think Quentin and Laurel are both easy targets to kill right now.  If Oliver is about to become mayor, it would be relatively easy to introduce a new police connection or DA connection and explain why he's talking to them about crime.  His role as mayor is actually rather perfect in that regards.  So I don't think TA needs an in with Quentin and the police or Laurel and the DA anymore.  So I'd give them about a 50/50 chance for that reason.

 

However, when it comes to emotional impact, I think Quentin pulls waaaaaayyyyyy ahead.  His death would impact Laurel of course, but now that he's dating Donna, it impacts Felicity.  No matter what Oliver would have felt if Quentin died before, I think Donna being head over heels for him would quadruple what TA is wiling to do if Darhk kills him.

 

And while Laurel would be easy to write off the show - at this point, I don't think her death would have even the emotional impact that Tommy's and Moira's would have had.  Personally, I think if they were going to kill Laurel - she would have been getting more story this season, more reason for us to care if/when they do it.  So yea, I really do think it's Quentin.

We can agree to disagree. But I do think that they need a connection to the police unless they are changing how they do the villains. TA still fights basic crime and unless its the major villain they have been seen to just stop crime. I can't imagine a major villain that they can cast that would allow for 23 quality scripts with them being the sole villain. Every week they basically need the police as some type of back-up. Even if its just dropping the criminals off at their doorstep. Plus they need a police leader willing to not go after the vigilantes. Without the police connection, there is a disconnect to TA's mission to protect the city.

 

A connection to the DA was never important after s2, because they honestly have never pursued justice and conviction for the criminals they catch. They get them off the street and then the problem goes away. The only time they went back to the courtroom in s3 was to release the criminals back to the streets so they had someone to fight while OQ was "dead".

 

As for the emotional fallout from the death. I think its just about even between them from an audience standpoint. The fans of the character will grieve them. The casual audience member probably won't care. And the people that dislike the character will be happy. As crappy as QL was to TA in s3, I feel like he has redeemed himself a little this season to have fans or at least to apathy. I don't think as many people dislike him as they dislike LL. LL is a close member of TA & everybody's friend. QL has some type of relationship with every character. YMMV but each death can be played with emotional beats. If anything LL is a little higher on the emotional hit list from a character perspective because she is actually on TA. So if the writers want to go big emotionally it still is LL.

[Trini]

Laurel's safe. They're not killing the other Canary too. But thanks for reminding me the consequences TPTB mentioned; that makes me think even more it's Quentin. Laurel gained her sister back, so now she's going to lose her father.

[BunsenBurner]

Then that would again mean there were no consequences for Laurel. I believe it's an eye for an eye type of consequence. A sister for a sister. A father for a sister wouldn't be as traumatic, parents are supposed to die before their kids. Lance not dying means he has to suffer a greater amount of misery I know but even if he wanted to go the drinking too much thing again he has more people to watch out for him because they understand the changing the universe is wrong. Laurel on the other hand would suffer for her trying to change a death one year after the death hence a greater suffering should take place. Just my opinion but I think the same could be said for Barry for all the changes he has made.

[Chaser]

I would still say smart money is on Lance.

 

I want it to be Laurel and not just because I want her off the show, but because I want the show to shock me. I feel like at this point it needs to do something crazy and Lance to me is a cop-out (actual pun intended there) category.

 

Shocking for me would be a mask on the Team. That would be Thea/Diggle/Laurel. They haven't lost a member of the Team yet. That would have the must impact.

 

Of those three, Laurel makes the most sense. She doesn't offer anything unique. She is a fighter, but so are Thea and Diggle. She has a connection to law enforcement, but so does Quentin. She is friends with Oliver, but Thea and Diggle are family.

[NumberCruncher]

It makes me sad to think it's probably Lance just because seeing him with Donna in this week's episode was all sorts of cute/hilarious. There's a lot of good stuff to mine there--especially since it squicks Felicity out so much.

[Happy Harpy]

Tommy & Moira easy to kill because they had served their plot purpose and provided more dead than alive.

I can't agree on this. Tommy was Thea's half brother and Malcolm's son. I think he would have been way more believable in Laurel's S2 anti-Arrow plot, for example; it fit his anti-vigilantism stance. He could have still stired Oliver toward a non-killing stance, alive, but he could be confronted to the necessity to kill in order to save those he cared for. I would have loved a Tommy/Oliver scene after Oliver killed Vertigo to save Felicity, for example. And in S3, brothers unite for their sister Thea would have been a thing of beauty. 

Moira is imo still missing on the show. I'm convinced that if she had been in S3, Oliver wouldn't have had to drop the idiot ball for Plot as much with the LoA. Moira vs Malcolm fight for Thea's soul would have been epic. Moira's shades of grey had imo unlimited storyline potential.

Since the writers resurrected Malcolm, especially, those two characters were still more than relevant.

 

Laurel might be the "Black Canary" but in the facts, she's imo just additional brawn. BTW, now that I think of it, I believe that the reason why she grated less in 4x09 was that for the first time since the beginning of the season, she accepted her role of sidekick to Oliver, instead of childishly challenging his authority over the team.

But now, her relationship with Oliver is pacified, the show had that insta-friendship (which I don't buy, but it's supposed to be there) with Diggle and Felicity,  yet  ITA with , she isn't unique to anyone but Lance. Moreover, Sara who was imo the center of her storyline since S2-B is gone, and she's a full-fledged "hero" or at least, so the writers say.

So, what are the dramatic ressorts of her character?  I don't see any. And I don't see what Lance's death could bring to her character in that respect, that Sara's death didn't bring already. She already unraveled in S2 after Tommy's death (she became an antagonist and then she drowned in the bottled) she already became a vigilante after Sara's death and she already did things against nature in other to bring a loved one back to life. What else can she do? I don't see anything.

Whereas I can see interesting developments with Lance if Laurel died. One example, it could send him spinning in a whole other direction. I could see him embrace the vigilantism he always despised because nothing else could bring justice for his daughter. It could fit the "ugly" he talked about. I'm not saying that Quentin could become a mask, there are enough masks, but it could be a new start for the character, and his relationship with Oliver.

Maybe the writers will indefinitely use her BC title and her name as a plot armor for Laurel. But I think that once again, it would be a mistake to kill an older character with more potential imo.

 

I'm still holding on to the hope that Sin will reappear and take over the Black Canary mantle.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Primal Slayer]

If Sara is suppose to be a legend in the future then that means that Laurel was meant to bring her back. The pit has never seemed to be a eye for an eye type situation. She got Sara back but not complete until extr magic was involved.

[wonderwall]

(Oliver to Felicity in a deleted line from 4x01)

Oliver: I don’t know what would become of me if something ever were to happen to you, Felicity.

(Lance to Laurel in 4x09)

Lance: You just be careful out there, all right? ‘Cause I don’t know what I’d do if anything were to happen to you. In fact, that’s not true. I know exactly what I would do. And it’d be ugly.

In my mind, there’s no way this is a coincidence. The lines are worded a bit differently, but essentially the same. Not only did they take that line AWAY from Oliver, but they gave it TO Lance. Had they left it in 4x01, placed right before the flash forward, it would’ve made the connection between Felicity and the grave TOO obvious. But leaving it here in 4x09, it becomes less like a red herring and more like foreshadowing. This was the point in the episode where I said (outloud) “Laurel is a goner.”

I’m more convinced than ever that Laurel’s the one in the grave. More than just the foreshadowing here, I think this would make for an interesting parallel. Lance has seen Oliver go down a dark path before (as the Arrow in season 1). It would be interesting to watch Lance going down a dark path instead (PAINFUL, of course, but interesting). Oliver has always looked up to Lance; has always wanted Lance to see the kind of man he really is. I think it would be interesting to watch Oliver be the one to pull Quentin back from the edge; to be Lance’s HERO for once instead of the “villain” or the “monster.” (X)

 

It's reading stuff like this that makes me dream...... T_T I'm just setting myself up for disappointment though

Edited December 12, 2015 by wonderwall

[Starfish35]

It's reading stuff like this that makes me dream...... T_T I'm just setting myself up for disappointment though

Between this and jbuffyangel's argument, I swear they've almost got me believing it. I've quoted the Laurel section from her very lengthy review. ;)

She [Laurel] repeats the EXACT SAME dialogue Felicity said to Oliver.

The fact that these two women are connected through the SAME dialogue got my attention. BIG TIME. The premiere, mid season finale and finale are the three episodes that connect. Choose any season of Arrow and watch these three episodes. Chances are, you’ll understand the season without watching any other episode.

The premiere introduced us to the grave in the flash forward. Now it’s about catching up to time and each episode is another piece of the puzzle, but no more so than the mid season finale. The premiere foreshadowed Felicity as the likely candidate, but it was too heavy handed. The writers desperately wanted us to believe it was Felicity in the grave. Why? A misdirect? Yes. But who are they misdirecting our attention from? Laurel.

The mid season finale is the turning point. It’s the shift in the story when the red herrings will stop and the writers will get down to the business of setting up the real death. Felicity is the ultimate misdirect. She will survive the shooting. However, the midseason finale has to connect to the REAL character death. Just like the premiere did.

By repeating the same dialogue, Laurel is immediately connected to Felicity.

Both women assert that they get to decide whether or not they need someone’s protection. Both women explain to Oliver that they are choosing this life of their own free will. No matter what happens, he is not to blame.

But only ONE woman’s life is in peril by the end of the episode - Felicity’s. She will survive. Laurel wasn’t at the Christmas party. She was fielding tips on the hotline. Laurel didn’t end up in the gas chamber because she wasn’t there. Then, the Black Canary shows up and saves their lives. It will not take Damien Darhk long to piece it all together. Felicity was the failed attempt. The next time Darhk comes for Oliver’s loved ones, he won’t fail. Laurel will be the successful attempt. She will die. That’s the parallel between the two women.

Oliver’s graveside chat with Barry and how this death wasn’t his fault, but his responsibility, is a direct callback to his discussion with Laurel. Laurel told Oliver to stop blaming himself and to let go of his "go to guilt.” Yes, Felicity made similar assertions, but we know she survives the shooting. So why is Oliver repeating a conversation he had with Felicity at the grave? The conversation would carry more weight with Oliver if it came from the person who died. So, if it’s not Felicity… it has to be Laurel.

Oliver [at the grave] is repeating, almost verbatim, what Laurel says to him in “Dark Waters” because he accepts that she chose this life. It is the only way his lack of guilt at the grave makes any sense.

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/134916988488/the-guiding-light-dark-waters-4x09-review

Maybe it's just because I want to believe (lol), but this is starting to make a lot of sense to me.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

I can't agree on this. Tommy was Thea's half brother and Malcolm's son. I think he would have been way more believable in Laurel's S2 anti-Arrow plot, for example; it fit his anti-vigilantism stance. He could have still stired Oliver toward a non-killing stance, alive, but he could be confronted to the necessity to kill in order to save those he cared for. I would have loved a Tommy/Oliver scene after Oliver killed Vertigo to save Felicity, for example. And in S3, brothers unite for their sister Thea would have been a thing of beauty. 

Moira is imo still missing on the show. I'm convinced that if she had been in S3, Oliver wouldn't have had to drop the idiot ball for Plot as much with the LoA. Moira vs Malcolm fight for Thea's soul would have been epic. Moira's shades of grey had imo unlimited storyline potential.

Since the writers resurrected Malcolm, especially, those two characters were still more than relevant.

Sorry, I should typed that I meant from these writers' perspective that the characters served more a purposed dead rather than alive. I absolutely loved Moira & Tommy and personally feel like there were many stories still left in their journeys. I was typing on my phone and it can be cumbersome to type, so I forgot to say from the writers' perspective.

 

I agree with the whole bottom of your post, which I think adds to the my opinion and others' opinion that there is more gained by a LL death than a QL death.

Edited December 12, 2015 by kismet

[quarks]

For what it's worth, until this season, I think Arrow actually was pretty good about not bringing characters from the dead. The only characters brought back from the dead were Slade (who died for one episode after a Mirakuru injection, and it could be said that everyone was too focused on machine guns to really check to see if Slade had a pulse), Sara (after death one, the drowning, where we never saw the body, also after dying again in drowning two), Sara again (snake pit venom versus magical island herb!) and Malcolm, who specifically said prior to his "death" that he had learned various techniques in Nanda Parbat, foreshadowing his return. I suppose we could count Isabel and Roy in that list, but since neither of them died for an entire episode, I'm not including them.

 

This season, of course, it does seem as if everyone is coming back from the dead. But really, ignoring 408's timeline wonkery, it's just three people: Sara, Ray and Andy. Of those three, two weren't dead - H.I.V.E. faked Andy's death, and Ray just developed superpowers that he's going to need on the new show. Leaving us with Sara, whose superpower does seem to be "not dying," and who is the only character on all three shows other than Barry and Oliver that I am absolutely, 100% confident is not in the grave since at this point, no one would believe it. In general, though, when we've seen dead bodies not belonging to characters named "Sara" or "Malcolm" they've stayed dead. (Tommy, Fyers and the gang, Moira, Count Vertigo the First, Quentin's partner, Shado, Sebastian Blood, Kate Spencer, Isabel (death two), Maseo, Ra's Al Ghul, Ivo, others I'm forgetting.)

 

Anyway, on to the death speculation!

 

1. Quentin.  Pro: He's one of the older characters on this show, and this is the CW; he's working as a double agent with Damien, which doesn't bode well; he just started up a new relationship and Arrow likes to snatch our happy moments away. He can be replaced by another cop character - one who doesn't know Oliver's secret. Anvils have been falling. Con: In story, Barry's met Quentin only once so far.

 

2. . Laurel.  Pro: Anvils mounting everywhere last episode. Con: Comics.

 

It would fit in well with the inexplicable saga treatment that Laurel has had so far for Arrow to kill her off after finally handing her an episode where she was able to be heroic, an episode where fans responded with "I even liked Laurel!"  But here we are, facing the unfortunate truth is that it took Arrow three seasons and nine episodes to integrate Laurel into a storyline - and did this only by creating a plothole. As several people pointed out, Felicity and Thea - Oliver's girlfriend and sister - are obvious targets; Diggle, however, is only known to the public as Oliver's bodyguard/driver. So why did Damien kidnap Diggle? Because otherwise, that speech from Laurel about not going to his dark place, and remembering that Team Arrow chose this, would have gone to Diggle. (Plus, that let the writers drop in another anvil.) 

 

Also, as this episode showed, characters still aren't telling Laurel anything. 

 

There are other, outside reasons (merchandise, social media numbers) why Laurel might be in that grave, although those reasons apply to other characters as well. So moving on --

 

3. Samantha. Pro: After the negative fan response to her last episode, it would not surprise me if Berlanti did a swerve and decided to kill her off instead. Con: If Samantha dies, either Arrow has to persuade viewers that Oliver "I would fall off a cliff to save my sister" Queen is willing to let his son go and live with grandparents who haven't been seen on the show, or Arrow has to introduce a kid to the show. I think both present problems. I'm not running Arrow, but if I were, Samantha would be at the top of my list for "Characters Who Cannot Be Killed Off."

 

4. William: Pro: Again, after the negative fan response to this entire plot, Berlanti could do a swerve and decide to kill the kid off instead, eliminating both kid and mother from the show. (I'm calling this a swerve because I think Amell would have been directed to look considerably more upset in that scene if the original plan had been to kill off the kid.) Arrow has killed a kid before, so it's not out of the question.

 

5. Thea: Pro: We just a lot of anvils for this, what with Malcolm all scared. Con: We already saw this plot last year.

 

6. Lyla: Pro: This makes sense in the context of Andy's return. Lyla is also a long standing character whose death would impact other characters and provide drama, and is the one guest star death which wouldn't be regarded as a cop out.  At this point, Diggle seems to be able to handle all of the ARGUS contacts. This would also allow Arrow to set Diggle up with a new relationship mid season five or season six.

 

7. One of our two newscasters: Pro: They've both been around since the first season, and they were suddenly quite prominent again last episode, weren't they? One of them even got shot at! Con: Please don't kill our local newscasters, Arrow! We barely even know their names (do we know their names? One is Bethany something, right?) and yet I have a happy fan theory that each night they get together and go, "Would we be safer covering an actual war zone? What do you think?" "Well, if no one named Oliver Queen shows up anywhere nearby...." I'm even fanwanking that they can have a double wedding with Oliver and Felicity!

 

8. Damien's daughter: Pro: Hey, it's Arrow. Con:... I'm suddenly really into this theory. If only because it means the newscasters get to live!

 

9. Roy. Pro: Prominent character; reactions are appropriate. Con: Colton Haynes' filming schedule doesn't support this.

 

10. Alex. Pro: Arrow does love to kill off guest stars and kill everyone's shot at happiness. Con: Unless Alex becomes considerably more prominent in upcoming episodes, I think most fans will regard this as a cop out.

 

11. Curtis. Pro: Arrow does love to kill off guest stars and destroy happy couples, and right now, Curtis is a guest star who is as Happy as Couples Get. Also, the character's comic book was cancelled thanks partly to low sales. Con: This is all backstage stuff, but it seems that Curtis may be getting groomed to either join Team Arrow or pop in and out of Legends of Tomorrow, and this could lead to the return of his comic book/merchandise.

 

12. Poppy. Pro: As far as I can tell this death would have no affect on the narrative at all, and no one would miss her. Con: As far as I can tell, this death would have no affect on the narrative at all, and fans might not even notice.  ("Who's in the grave?"  "That flashback girl." "There's a girl in the flashbacks?" "So I've been told. I think she was eaten by a shark.")  

 

13. Donna Smoak: Pro: Cue the angst! Con: Donna's not that major of a character, and right now, at least, Arrow seems to be using her as Felicity's emotional soundboard.  

 

14. Diggle. Pro:.... I have no pros, other than the death makes some narrative sense given the H.I.V.E. and Andy, and eventually, everyone in a comic book/action movie loses their mentor.  Con: Technically, Oliver's already lost several mentors - Yao Fei, Moira, Shado, Maseo and, kinda, Ra's Al Ghul, and, uh, I guess Poppy (since she isn't around in the current timeline) if we're calling her a mentor, arguable since so far, her skills seem to be limited to cooking lizards and guiding people straight into the hungry mouths of sharks. Not very mentorish.

 

15. Felicity. Pro: ANGST CITY. OLIVER WOULD GO BONKERS. It would be hailed as a daring move.  Con: I could absolutely see this happening on another network, but unless EBR really, really really wants to leave the show, I don't see the CW going for this.

 

16. Malcolm. Pro: I just have him in here because he's one of the regulars.  Con: Arrow has brought this guy back from the dead and paid the actor for several episodes that he didn't even appear in and gone to incredible lengths to come up with plot reasons for the rest of the characters to tolerate Malcolm.

 

17. Hawkman. Pro: His appearance on the two crossover episodes did not appear to generate massive fan love. Con: He's headed to another show; the person in the grave is almost certainly an Arrow character.

 

18. Nyssa. Pro: The actress is now working with another show. As an LoA member, she's a target for H.I.V.E. Her death eliminates any lingering fan questions about the Oliver/Nyssa marriage, and frees up Sara, the star of Legends of Tomorrow, to enter a relationship with anyone without fans sobbing "But what about Nyssa?" Con: Film scheduling may be an issue right now.

 

19. Tatsu: Pro: Can easily be removed from the narrative. Barry's met her. Fits the mentor argument mentioned above. Con: We haven't seen her for several episodes; she also makes sense as a potential Legends of Tomorrow character or a Team Arrow replacement should any of the regulars want off the show. Similar arguments apply to Helena.

 

20. Jessica Danforth. Pro: She's in Damien's sights, the script claims she's a family friend, Arrow couldn't really have wasted Jeri Ryan on just a one episode appearance, right? Con: She's so far only appeared in one episode; Barry doesn't know her, and Arrow has certainly wasted guest stars before.

 

21. Kermit the Frog. Pro: Damien's rage against green characters is growing. Con: Disney might object to this. 

[kismet]

Between this and jbuffyangel's argument, I swear they've almost got me believing it. I've quoted the Laurel section from her very lengthy review. ;)

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/134916988488/the-guiding-light-dark-waters-4x09-review

Maybe it's just because I want to believe (lol), but this is starting to make a lot of sense to me.

It always made sense to me, even before JBuffyAngel started her prophesizing... Although she is laying it out it nicely. But will TPTB be brave enough to do it and does KC's contract allow it are always the limiting factors.

 

And I am liking the Final Destination-esque Universe balancing it out theory as well. That one has a nice & believable touch to it.

Edited December 12, 2015 by kismet

[Primal Slayer]

Laurels departure has been speculated every season thus far besides S1, we'll have to see if people are finally right this time.

[NumberCruncher]

They're not going to kill Laurel, especially after spending 3 seasons building her up to be BC.

[Starfish35]

12. Poppy. Pro: As far as I can tell this death would have no affect on the narrative at all, and no one would miss her. Con: As far as I can tell, this death would have no affect on the narrative at all, and fans might not even notice. ("Who's in the grave?" "That flashback girl." "There's a girl in the flashbacks?" "So I've been told. I think she was eaten by a shark.")

ROFL I love it.

If Samantha dies, either Arrow has to persuade viewers that Oliver "I would fall off a cliff to save my sister" Queen is willing to let his son go and live with grandparents who haven't been seen on the show, or Arrow has to introduce a kid to the show. I think both present problems. I'm not running Arrow, but if I were, Samantha would be at the top of my list for "Characters Who Cannot Be Killed Off."

100% agreed.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[Happy Harpy]

Sorry, I should typed that I meant from these writers' perspective that the characters served more a purposed dead rather than alive. I absolutely loved Moira & Tommy and personally feel like there were many stories still left in their journeys. I was typing on my phone and it can be cumbersome to type, so I forgot to say from the writers' perspective.

 

I agree with the whole bottom of your post, which I think adds to the my opinion and others' opinion that there is more gained by a LL death than a QL death.

Don't be sorry! (And even if it were your opinion you would be entitled to it.)

 I agree that it was the writers' perspective, and they were imo incredibly shortsighted. Malcolm, in particular, suffered a lot without an antagonist of his caliber. Maybe Darhk will remedy to this.

 

 

There are other, outside reasons (merchandise, social media numbers) why Laurel might be in that grave, although those reasons apply to other characters as well. So moving on --

The biggest other factor for me is that Laurel has no love interest

and there is no plan for this that we know of.

. I don't see anyone who could fit the bill in the regular canvas, unless she plans to transfer Andy to her basement and keep him chained there for other reasons than his Ghost-itude.

Not that I want everyone to have a love interest, but it's as if this show was on a crusade against celibacy. Even the Nazi fanboy Big Bad is married with a child. OK, Malcom is the exception (but he has minions...). Moreover, Laurel is in need of her own storyline and a LI is the easiest, fastest way to create one. So why don't they?

 

As always with Laurel, when it makes sense it doesn't happen so logic isn't going to cut it imo. Even if they killed her, I don't think they'd stick to it, unless KC wants to pursue other projects and carry her own show for example, as she could I think pretend to when she was cast on Arrow.

And with my luck, even if they did it, BM would replace her as the BC two episodes later.

 

For the spawn, a good old "because of the life I lead" (and this life just got his mother killed) could imo explain why Oliver would ship the child to the grandparents even if BM dies. Nope, I don't truly see Oliver do this, but after all the writers believed in this BS against all logic when they served it at the end of the Calm imo; so why not again? And I'd be willing to suspend disbelief as long as every remnant of this storyline was gone forever to a nice farm in the countryside or a galaxy far, far away from Star(ling) city.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Starfish35]

For the spawn, a good old "because of the life I lead" (and this life just got his mother killed) could imo explain why Oliver would ship the child to the grandparents even if BM dies. Nope, I don't truly see Oliver do this, but after all the writers believed in this BS against all logic when they served it at the end of the Calm imo; so why not again? And I'd be willing to suspend disbelief as long as every remnant of this storyline was gone forever to a nice farm in the countryside or a galaxy far, far away from Star(ling) city.

True, but why go to the trouble when they can just keep Samantha alive and just never ever see them again? I don't think they're that hard up for grave candidates that they would kill off the mother but then have to make up an excuse why we never ever see the kid. Far easier to leave her alive and just keep them both permanently in offscreensville.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[Happy Harpy]

True, but why go to the trouble when they can just keep Samantha alive and just never ever see them again?

It would work with me, too, but I'd rather for her to be dead because if she was just gone, I would never trust the writers to not revisit the storyline at some point, the next time they have a sudden craving for manufactured soapish drama.

 

If she was dead and buried, they'd be no way she'd ever be back on the show. Oh, wait...

[Starfish35]

But you'd have to kill them both off to ensure that the storyline's never revisited, not just Samantha. Even if Samantha dies, the kid's still out there somewhere.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

If they brought back BM and/or William to just kill them off that would be so annoying! I didn't sit through that episode. And then have to put my thinking cap on to analyze why OQ did what he did, just so I could get a dead BM or love child because the writers got a little weak in using one of the other candidates.

 

I mean I know that is not a valid reason to not kill them. I just can't imagine that they would introduce them only to kill them, when there are so many other candidates this season even in the guest category. Even the universal story hate, I don't think is enough reason to get them to the grave. I'm not saying it's a possibility but for me they share the 4th spot from the bottom of possible candidates.

[Chaser]

My preferred storyline for BM and Kid is basically Oliver decides that until he can be fully apart of his son's life he should stay out of it completely.

 

He can go see the kid in the epilogue of the series. When he brings Felicity and their children along.

[calliope1975]

True, but why go to the trouble when they can just keep Samantha alive and just never ever see them again? I don't think they're that hard up for grave candidates that they would kill off the mother but then have to make up an excuse why we never ever see the kid. Far easier to leave her alive and just keep them both permanently in offscreensville.

 

Plus, God forbid, if this show gets into Smallville and Supernatural season territory, they'll have an aged (probably angry) teen to reenter the picture and learn dear ole surprise dad's vigilante secret. 

[tarotx]

I think Rip might be lying through his teeth about his assembled team being legends. He's trying to sell his venture and saying, 'I chose all of your because you have a useful skill but no impact on history', isn't going to cut it. 

If Sara is suppose to be a legend in the future then that means that Laurel was meant to bring her back. The pit has never seemed to be a eye for an eye type situation. She got Sara back but not complete until extr magic was involved. 

[kismet]

Plus, God forbid, if this show gets into Smallville and Supernatural season territory, they'll have an aged (probably angry) teen to reenter the picture and learn dear ole surprise dad's vigilante secret. 

I'm not even sure they will need to wait that long. I think they will just magically age him to his 20s when SA wants out and reboot the entire show. Andy Jr will be the new Dig. Perhaps lil'Sara will be the new angsty teenager harassing her cousin. They'll just throw more make-up on WH if they want to keep her around as a mentor (and the actress wants to stay around). Unless OQ is killed at the end of the show (which is possible), I imagine that him & FS are retired somewhere to suburbia - perhaps they will make some guest appearances. If OQ is killed and EBR for some reason hasn't found something better to do I imagine she could stick around as the new parent figure of the show.

 

I really dread the thought of them bringing on an angsty teen for OQ to raise, I could barely tolerate TQ when they did that - my patience would be almost nothing for this teen melodrama. And honestly, who wants to see SA be a Dad to an angsty teen? Cute father-son moments that are limited and fun - Yes. Melodramatic teens - No thanks.

Edited December 12, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

We may hate the flashforward in 4x01 but I have to admit, it's been very effective in getting people talking.

 

My money is still on Roy in the grave. Unfortunately.  I miss him. Alex is nicety-nice but blandity-bland and for me,

You've reminded me just how McBlandy Alex is.  Unless they really up his screentime and his value to Team Arrow, I don't think he meets the requirements.

Unfortunately, Roy does, and he would be a death that Oliver would take hard enough to see it as his responsibility to kill whoever caused it.  And since the death is probably in 4x19, it's possible for Colton Haynes to return to film it.

 

Was Moira a regular when she got killed?

Yes, she was.

It was such a waste, even more than Tommy. And at least Tommy's death caused Oliver's 'no-kill' rule. Moira's death did nothing but microscopically advance Slade's plot.  I think the problem is that the EPs couldn't see a storyline for her.  They didn't have one for Barrowman either, but they wanted to keep him.

 

I would say that William won't be killed because he has story potential five years down the road but both Tommy and Moira had tons of it, not to mention Sara, and they still were killed off.

 

 

I would like this to be the case because, personal bias aside, TPTB keep saying that there are consequences to playing with life and death (e.g. the LP and Barry's time travel.) That consequence should be major, and if they are going to Final Destination this show, Laurel would have the most emotional impact on the characters (though perhaps not the viewers) outside of Felicity or Diggle, which imo, would be such a serious, risky blow, I don't know if the show could recover. 

I think Laurel would have the most emotional impact if you assume that Thea, Diggle and Felicity are safe.

 

But the standard rules of consequences have never applied to Laurel on this show.  Like Malcolm, she's buttressed.  They want her on the show, they just don't know what to do with her.

Edited December 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[tv echo]

It could be one of those things where the person who's slated to die can be saved if someone else voluntarily sacrifices himself in that person's stead.

 

Going with the theory that the people who died in 408 before being saved by time travel reversal have to die again...  Oliver and Thea will be somehow exempt because they've already 'died' and come back.  So Felicity will briefly die and come back.  Next, Diggle will somehow briefly die and come back.  Then Laurel will be slated to die (they'll tease us with anvils leading up to the death), but in a 'surprise twist', Quentin steps in and dies in her place.

Edited December 12, 2015 by tv echo

[BunsenBurner]

^^^Unless Laurel steps in and saves Felicity's life like Felicity did with Sara in S2. She could step in for others as well.

[Chaser]

She could step in and save her father's life.

 

Truly, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Quentin dies saving Laurel's life. That is actually what I think they were sort of hinting at at the beginning of the season. DD threatens Laurel's life, Quentin realizes that Laurel can take of herself and he is a better man than that, DD goes after Laurel, Quentin dies saving her life. He dies a redeemed man. Full Circle.

 

Most of the things that implied Laurel was going to be in the grave this season were outside forces. Wrap up of any storyline by mid season (Sara, Lance) and no tease for a future one. This episode flipped the script for me. The anvils geared toward Laurel, but they took it one step further and set-up a potential arc for Lance at the same time. That's really what got me more than anything. 

 

For DD to succeed in making good on his threat to Lance would be crazy-good. It would have a terrifying effect on Lance, be a legit shock to the Team and frankly establish DD as the Biggest Bad they ever went up against.

 

The potential story is too good there, I can't help but want it lots.

Edited December 12, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Password]

Yes! Jbuffyangel persuaded me around episode 1 or 2 of season 4 that Laurel is in the grave. All the mid season finale did for me was CEMENT my belief that she will die.

[BkWurm1]

I see the logic. I see the story benefit. I see the emotional reverberations. I see the shock they could sell. And yet I just can't see them actually going there. Logic and story and emotional payoff hasn't factored into how Laurel has been portrayed.

I will dare to dream but won't let my feet get off the ground. Not yet at least. I'd need some outside proof that KC isn't on set probably.

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, I'm still pretty convinced that it can't be anyone but Quentin in that grave. First of all, this is Arrow. They did take big risks with Tommy and Moira, yes, but those caused emotional ripples, plus Moira's death was just another death to add to Oliver's pain. Logically, it makes sense for the death to be one of the Lances. Both would logically fit; let's look at Quentin first.

 

Quentin: He's finally getting a big storyline. Uh-oh for his fate, that's for sure. He's directly in the line of fire with Damien Darhk. He chose to continue being a spy for Darhk, and it hasn't blown up (yet). He's getting along with Oliver now. He's made his amends with him and now is kind of a member of Team Arrow. He's even going on missions! He also has his first real relationship since Dinah. He's basically almost redeemed at this point, so of course his story looks like it's over, so it's ok to kill him off. He even got to see his daughter alive one more time. Plus, he wouldn't survive another daughter's death, no way, and there's no way he would want his other daughter to go travelling through time and space, and I don't think Sara would leave him alone after Laurel's death. 

 

I'm not positive if the 'him' who is the killer is Darhk, but it probably is. They kept it vague enough, but whatever. All I know is that the pieces fit with Quentin, as they're trying to entice a bigger emotional response from the audience through manipulation. They're giving him storylines, they're giving him closure and they're giving Donna a more prominent role when Quentin dies, and thus giving Felicity one too. So yeah, I'm convinced it has to be Quentin.

 

But, just to look at the other side of things:

 

Laurel: Well, she's gotten nothing to do this season. Ok, she got to raise Sara from the dead, but that was more out of convenience because they needed someone to bring Sara back, and obviously Laurel was the only choice. Then, after that, nothing. She's been given absolutely nothing to do, other than to scream. Which is weird, mind you. Laurel has always been given something to do, whether it's as small as getting a temporary test love interest. All we see her do is fight crime and talk to her dad once or twice. They haven't even set her up for any future storylines. So basically, it looks like her story is done. Her and Oliver are also on better terms. She's on the team now, and she's semi-useful. Her death would cause emotional ripples for sure. Oliver would be upset. Laurel's friendly with Diggle, so he would have a reaction. Felicity and Laurel....kind of are friends? Or something? Thea's known Laurel almost her entire life, so she would obviously be upset too. Plus, Laurel would spiral again if Quentin was the death. I could picture her leaving because of his death, but who knows? 

 

I'm less convinced it's Laurel because it would be a bold move to make, and I'm not sure if the creators want to let go of their Black Canary, especially since it took so long to actually make her BC. Plus, Quentin fits better with the arc they've given him this season. So, sadly, I am convinced it's Quentin, but I will absolutely be surprised if it's anyone but. 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Lady Calypso

[Velocity23]

They practically gave Laurel some  kind of relationship to all the members of team Arrow. Even more with Diggle and Thea. Especially with Diggle where she would give him advice and him sharing secrets to her, he didnt even confide to Oliver.

[statsgirl]

Plus, he wouldn't survive another daughter's death, no way, and there's no way he would want his other daughter to go travelling through time and space, and I don't think Sara would leave him alone after Laurel's death. 

[snip]

She's been given absolutely nothing to do, other than to scream. Which is weird, mind you. Laurel has always been given something to do, whether it's as small as getting a temporary test love interest. All we see her do is fight crime and talk to her dad once or twice. They haven't even set her up for any future storylines.

I can see two scenarios where Quentin might be okay with letting Sara go travelling:  first, if he's turned evil as a result of Laurel's death, and second if Sara convinces him that this is what she wants to do. Poor guy, his days of thinking he can control his daughters much less actually controlling them are long gone.

 

For Laurel, it may be that there is so much in this season, they're not giving her a specific arc for once. As the EPs said, it's the season of Diggle and Felicity, plus the LoT set-up.  Even something that takes as little time as a love interest could be more than they want to set up for her. I think we'll know better by about 4x13 if there is something longterm for her.

 

I was thinking Alex could have been a love interest for her but they needed him for Thea to see her beat-down of the guy hitting on her.

 

I can't see them being willing to lose Laurel Lance: Black Canary from the Flarrowverse. At worst, she'll take some time off to go elsewhere, maybe train with Nyssa in Nanda Parbat.

[nksarmi]

For some reason, I think it's the love interest that puts it more in the Quentin category than Laurel.  For some reason, I can't help but think if they were going to kill Laurel, they would give her more of a story.  My impression of Arrow is that they won't want to kill off anyone unless they can get maximum emotional pain from it.  So if that was Laurel, I feel like Curtis would have been straight and her love interest or someone else.  And she'd end up finding out about BM and they'd have a big emotional "I'm sorry for all the times I cheated on you/it's ok, I forgive you and I know you are a changed man and I wish you so much happiness with Felicity" etc.... moment. 

 

And at the end of the day, I still can't help but think if they wanted Laurel/KC off the show, they'd still kill Quentin and just have her move away for a fresh start somewhere else.

 

ETA: If Laurel is the one who gets Oliver through Felicity being injured - I might change my mind about her chances of being in the grave.

Edited December 14, 2015 by nksarmi

[Primal Slayer]

Or they want people to think that Felicity isn't in danger by putting her in danger in Dark Waters. Of course I doubt it being either F/L but people have calmed down on her possibly be in the grave so it would be a surprise whammy.

[lemotomato]

ETA: If Laurel is the one who gets Oliver through Felicity being injured - I might change my mind about her chances of being in the grave.

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

 

If that happens, MG's inbox and mentions might as well be in the grave with whoever is dying.