Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[apinknightmare]

It actually helped that Roy was in gen pop though. If he wasn't, the whole fake death thing would've been much more difficult to pull off. I mean, yeah, it was typical SCPD/Iron Heights ineptitude, but it worked in Team Arrow's favor, at least.

[BkWurm1]

He let him get arrested for something he knew he didn't do. And then he didn't provide sufficient protection to him once he was in jail. Roy should have been better protected and not allowed to walk around gen pop. He led the lamb to the slaughter and then blamed it on OQ. RH's "death" was as much on QL as it was on OQ, if not more on QL.

He had no choice but to arrest him since he didn't have proof to say otherwise (unless hearsay from a two hundred year old leader of a shadow association that had just kidnapped the Police Captain was going to hold up in court)  Roy did have some trouble in Gen Pop, but he was fully able to protect himself.  Him "dying" was part of the plan.  Since Roy didn't actually die, I can't blame QL or OQ

 

I think QL's comment to about Roy's death was offensive to many though. 

[kismet]

It actually helped that Roy was in gen pop though. If he wasn't, the whole fake death thing would've been much more difficult to pull off. I mean, yeah, it was typical SCPD/Iron Heights ineptitude, but it worked in Team Arrow's favor, at least.

I won't let him off the hook just because it benefited TA. If he was part of plan (which I don't think he was) than that is a totally different story. That being said Im not holding it against him forever. He just has some amends to make to TA, as does TA to him for the lying.

But he did fail to protect rh. He had to arrest him, but there could have been more ways to protect him. It was for plot, but it is what he did or more precisely failed to do. Which is what I was responding to about what he did to Roy.

Edited September 3, 2015 by kismet

[apinknightmare]

I wasn't implying that QL was in on the plan to spring Roy. And what happened to Roy while he was in Iron Heights would be on the warden - it's not QL's fault Roy was in gen pop.

[catrox14]

From the BTS thread:

 

Just my opinion, but I love Quentin and I'll be very upset if they kill him off.  Sure he's got problems and he waffles about Oliver and the Arrow and his equally waffling daughter Laurel. But I think the fact that he's a recovering alcoholic explains a lot of his issues seeming waffling. We've seen him struggle with that and seek help and fall back and return to getting help again. And it does inform who he can trust and who can trust him.

Plus, he just makes all of the scenes he's in better and other than Tommy, he's the only character that makes Laurel (IMO) remotely tolerable. I think it would a huge mistake to get rid of Quentin.

[Starfish35]

Honestly, I'd be a whole lot less upset about it now than I would have been a year ago. I don't hate Quentin at all, but last year did do a number on him as far as my interest in his character. I'm just not interested in the Laurel drama that would result from it. But if it made her decide to leave town and start over somewhere else (I know, no chance) I'd sacrifice Quentin in a heartbeat.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Starfish35

[manbearpig]

Quentin is, imo, the least of the show's problems. He's a supporting character who definitely did some stupid things, but then again...so did every one else, and pretty much all of those other people have more screen time and importance than Lance, so it's hard for me to get upset about when Blackthorne does such a good job. Then again I'm one of the few on this board who likes the Lance family drama, and I'm excited to see what happens with them this season. 

[kismet]

I think the Lance Family drama had a time and place in s1-3. It didn't always bother me. Some of it was entertaining. PB always knocks it out of the park. But I am getting a little exhausted from it. I want to see there be at least one season where the majority of the Lance's time on ARROW is not spent in the melodrama of their lives. I want to see them do something and perhaps be a functional dysfunctional family. I want to actually like Laurel again and not just wonder why she is still in scenes beyond contractually reasons. I want QL to redeem himself from the grief/anger induced rage he went into at the end of last season. They have important jobs that could be realistically worked into the plot, there is no need to be so heavily reliant on melodrama.

 

Honestly, I just don't want to lose QL/PB because they need to try another death to make LL's character work. We already lost Tommy & Sara. OQ has also had enough death as motivation. If they need more, perhaps they can continue to target the FB characters. I'm not as attached to them. But even that is getting a little old at this point.

[Velocity23]

I want the Lance family to keep their drama to themselves and not dragging everybody else into the mess.

[BkWurm1]

The issue was brought up in another thread about Lance offering Oliver what seemed a sincere apology when Sara first returned from the dead, that Quentin shouldn't have blamed him, he was just a stupid kid and all that.  Then last year he is back to blaming Oliver.

 

I think the difference is that QL finds out that Oliver isn't who he thought he was so while he was able to forgive who he thought he was, he saw him in a totally different light after getting confirmation that he was the Arrow.  The man that could be the Arrow, it is hard to reconcile who he is and what he is capable of with Oliver Fratboy Queen.  I think it would be easier to forgive and forget if Oliver was just this stupid kid then and just this not so bright or ambitions man child today.  I think in Quentin's eyes, Oliver's transformation into the Arrow suddenly made him more culpable for his past decisions whether that is fair or not, but that's why I don't really see QL as waffling.  He gave forgiveness to a person that doesn't really exist. He expected a lot of the Arrow and therefore he expected more of Oliver retroactively. 

 

Therefore, I think when he inevitably does reconcile with Oliver (crosses fingers) I think we can trust that it is for good.  He has nearly all the facts this time (we will see how much he really knows) so I would trust his apology to stick this time...though I am not sure the truce Oliver and Lance come to will technically include an apology. 

 

I want more QL not less.  I rewatched 2.1 and I loved him taking the time to speak to Felicty.  Miss that. 

[AyChihuahua]

I loved Quentin in S2.  Quite liked him for most of S1.  I hate him now, because of the last 1/3rd or so of S3.  But for me, he's permanently done.  No coming back, done.  And even if for show purposes any reconciliation is permanent this time, that doesn't change the fact that the team would be incredibly stupid to believe him again. And how will they ever know whether he has "all the facts" in his mind, since one of his major issues is that Sara didn't die on the boat the first time, but on a different boat a year later, after spending maybe a week with Oliver on the island, which SARA chose not to tell him?  He pretty much blames his morning constipation on Oliver nowadays, and I'm incredibly tired of it.  I mean, I don't like Oliver much anymore either, but that's because I don't like things he actually did in S3 that are actually his fault. 

I am so tired of people on this show doing these atrocious things and the audience being expected to be okay with it because the characters have the sadz about it.

Edited September 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[BkWurm1]

I am so tired of people on this show doing these atrocious things and the audience being expected to be okay with it because the characters have the sadz about it.

 

I'm more unhappy with bad things that are done and there is no regret or remorse, like Laurel beating up on the guy in the hospital who was only guilty of not wanting to tell her about a secret but totally legal deal he was a part of.  She's not at fault for his death but  she is responsible for making his last living minutes torture.

 

I also don't feel that Quentin being furious and even hitting Oliver while in custody is so atrocious as to be unforgivable.  Yes, hitting him was bad (and let it be acknowledged that I would have a very different realworld opinion.) but most of the rest of things that seem to be held against Quentin aren't actions so much but words and feelings.  Sticks and stones seem sometimes easier to forgive than the hurt inflicted by words.

[lexicon]

For me there are two things that QL was guilty of at the end of s3, that really made me change from looking forward to his scenes to actively disliking him. 

 

The first was the hypocrisy of singling Oliver out as being to blame for Sara's death and keeping that secret from him, which somehow got translated into a manhunt for the Arrow only, while knowingly allowing all his fellow vigilantes (including his daughter) to run around free through Starling City. Hell they all visited the police station to see Oliver at one point and he did nothing other than snarl at them.  WTF Quentin? 

 

The link he made between Sara's death and finding Oliver blameworthy was tenuous enough to rile me up but where he really lost me, was when he cruelly delivered the news of Roy's 'death' to Oliver. Throwing the news of the death in his face was bad enough, following it up immediately with it being Oliver's fault was the last straw. 

 

Of course once TPTB decided that the QL-is-angry-at-Oliver arc of s3 was over, they had him be the one to call FS to warn her about the police being about to shoot Oliver. So I guess next season they'll dial down the vitriol until the plot requires them to be at odds again. Sigh. At the end of the day, my anger is directed not QL so much as the EP's for giving us such wishy-washy characterisation, seemingly dictated by plot rather than reason. They have 23 eps per season, there's really no reason for the characters' actions to veer from one extreme to another fast enough to give you whiplash, especially with sketch motivation.

[AyChihuahua]

On my drive home I thought about a few of the things that Quentin doesn't know, and that would be more than enough to cause another freakout and subsequent betrayal:

Thea killed Sara

Malcolm's alive

Malcolm's the one who caused Thea to kill Sara

Oliver is protecting/working with Malcolm

Oliver gave the LOA to Malcolm

RAG attacked the city because of Oliver

Oliver knowingly risked the entire city to save Thea

Laurel, along with the whole rest of the team, knows all this

Laurel did nothing about Malcolm

Roy didn't actually die.

There's probably more, but Quentin has a lot left to find out about, and therefore a lot to get all pissed off about again and betray the team again.

[BkWurm1]

The first was the hypocrisy of singling Oliver out as being to blame for Sara's death and keeping that secret from him, which somehow got translated into a manhunt for the Arrow only, while knowingly allowing all his fellow vigilantes (including his daughter) to run around free through Starling City. Hell they all visited the police station to see Oliver at one point and he did nothing other than snarl at them.  WTF Quentin?

 

He did chase all of them in the manhunt, so if he'd caught them, he would have tossed them in jail at least for awhile.  But as for why they were in the police station, Oliver made a deal that gave them amnesty. 

 

Thea killed Sara

Malcolm's alive

Malcolm's the one who caused Thea to kill Sara

Oliver is protecting/working with Malcolm

Oliver gave the LOA to Malcolm

RAG attacked the city because of Oliver

Oliver knowingly risked the entire city to save Thea

Laurel, along with the whole rest of the team, knows all this

Laurel did nothing about Malcolm

Roy didn't actually die.

 

I am curious about how much Laurel has filled her dad in during the summer.  At ComicCon they were saying she's learned her lesson about keeping secrets so we will see about  that.  That said, I can't see how he would blame Oliver for what happened with Thea, especially since Oliver didn't know Malcolm was alive at the time.  He is going to be pissed about him being Ra's now but just because QL might forgive him permanently for the past with the boat, doesn't mean he can't get pissed about new things. 

 

One thing though, Ra's attacking Starling really wasn't because of Oliver.  We were told he was using the excuse of tradition to attack Starling so he could go after Darhk but even if it was just the attack on Starling for tradition, it's still Ra's messed up choice of forcing Oliver to be the next Ra's that is causing it.  It's not like Slade where it was personal. 

 

I wouldn't expect that Oliver and Quentin would always be perfectly on the same page and I wouldn't want that.  I want there to be natural conflicts and I want each to have their own priorities.  I just want the irrational stuff to go away. 

[GirlvsTV]

I hope Quentin retires/dies/goes away and takes LL with him, but I know that won't happen. I hope if we have to sit through another 'Quentin says terrible sh*t about/to Oliver' scene that maybe this new less angsty Oliver will lay a massive verbal smackdown on QL's hypocritical butt. At least that would add something new to their interactions.

I fear the first half of the season is going to focus on more Lance family drama, which in past seasons I could sort of tolerate because I did actually care about Quentin's character (loved his first reunion with Sara). He's dead to me now though, so I don't care if he's going to be happy/sad/mad or whatever, I have no interest in watching that play out on screen.

Taking the rest of my thoughts to the Quentin thread.

[AyChihuahua]

One thing though, Ra's attacking Starling really wasn't because of Oliver.  We were told he was using the excuse of tradition to attack Starling so he could go after Darhk but even if it was just the attack on Starling for tradition, it's still Ra's messed up choice of forcing Oliver to be the next Ra's that is causing it.  It's not like Slade where it was personal.

Darhk being there is most likely the reason the timetable was moved up, which was a big surprise to everyone, but RAG was going to attack/destroy SC because of Oliver becoming RAG regardless. And Oliver didn't know anything about Darhk when he agreed to the deal with RAG, but he did know, from Malcolm, that the LOA would attempt to destroy SC. He knowingly put an entire city in the League's sights to save his sister (who wouldn't have gotten skewered in the first place if Oliver hadn't left her by herself in her own apartment when he knew the LOA was gunning for his loved ones).

To be clear, if Quentin bitches at Oliver for this or several other things on my list, I would consider it completely justified. My point is that there is plenty of information that Quentin doesn't have, and that once he does have is likely to lead to another betrayal by him. Thus they would be idiots (which hey, they often are, especially Oliver) to trust Quentin in any way ever again.

Edited September 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

Laurel doesn't know that Roy is alive though, unless Diggle or Thea told her over the summer.

 

And Oliver didn't know anything about Darhk when he agreed to the deal with RAG, but he did know, from Malcolm, that the LOA would attempt to destroy SC.

We don't know that he did know that.  Ra's told him about destroylng the city when they went on their little nature walk but Malcolm may not have known about thqat little fact.  Unless it was well-known LoA lore rather than just handed down for Ra's to Heir, Malcolm may not have known that part till Oliver told him and certainly neither of them knew that Ra's had the alpha/omega.  If it were something like cholera, they could have stopped it from being a problem. 

 

At least it's less than Barry Allen, willing to destroy the whole city and everyone in it just so he could go back in time to save his mother

[BkWurm1]

 And Oliver didn't know anything about Darhk when he agreed to the deal with RAG, but he did know, from Malcolm, that the LOA would attempt to destroy SC. He knowingly put an entire city in the League's sights to save his sister (who wouldn't have gotten skewered in the first place if Oliver hadn't left her by herself in her own apartment when he knew the LOA was gunning for his loved ones).

 

We don't know WHEN he found out about the destroy your hometown catch.  My personal timeline is that MM told him after Oliver got the offer to use the LP to save Thea.  Any earlier and he was just letting people die while he dicked around.   I don't hold it against Oliver for agreeing especially since the plan was always to take out Ra's before the city was attacked.  Naturally he almost flubbed that up but Ra's wasn't taking no for an answer.  Starling was in danger IMO the second Ra's got his man crush on Oliver.  I also think that Quentin would not hold making that bargain to save his sister's life against him. 

[AyChihuahua]

Laurel doesn't know that Roy is alive though, unless Diggle or Thea told her over the summer.

 

We don't know that he did know that.  Ra's told him about destroylng the city when they went on their little nature walk but Malcolm may not have known about thqat little fact.  Unless it was well-known LoA lore rather than just handed down for Ra's to Heir, Malcolm may not have known that part till Oliver told him and certainly neither of them knew that Ra's had the alpha/omega.  If it were something like cholera, they could have stopped it from being a problem. 

 

At least it's less than Barry Allen, willing to destroy the whole city and everyone in it just so he could go back in time to save his mother

During Oliver's and Malcolm's fireside chat is seemed to be pretty clear that Oliver knew and had known that RAG would go after SC. He definitely did not know that Maseo had given RAG the A/O virus to use, but he knew the rule was that the new RAG's hometown had to be destroyed. He also planned to prevent it, but he failed, twice, and the only reason SC is not a city of corpses is because of his team, who he'd completely cut off. It's a comic book show, and he was in a bad place, so I'm not going to hate him forever for doing it, but it is pretty bad. Lots of other people also have sisters they love in Starling City.

And because I try to be fair and consistent, I hate Barry now. He didn't risk just his city, he risked, through a black hole, at least the whole solar system. That's a big part of why I'm not watching The Flash next season.

[BkWurm1]

At least it's less than Barry Allen, willing to destroy the whole city and everyone in it just so he could go back in time to save his mother

 

And then not even save her.  It was a heart touching moment but the stupid to get to that moment was IMO worse than anything we had on Arrow. The risk / reward ratio did not make sense.  I wonder if it means Barry will spend the season angsting and wallowing in guilt while Oliver quips and chills. 

[AyChihuahua]

We don't know WHEN he found out about the destroy your hometown catch.  My personal timeline is that MM told him after Oliver got the offer to use the LP to save Thea.  Any earlier and he was just letting people die while he dicked around.   I don't hold it against Oliver for agreeing especially since the plan was always to take out Ra's before the city was attacked.  Naturally he almost flubbed that up but Ra's wasn't taking no for an answer.  Starling was in danger IMO the second Ra's got his man crush on Oliver.  I also think that Quentin would not hold making that bargain to save his sister's life against him.

I find it impossible to believe that Oliver did not know that the LOA would attempt to destroy SC at the time that he agreed to become RAG in exchange for LPing Thea. According to RAG it's a tradition, not a secret, and Oliver had a plan to deal with it, implying he knew about it. Oliver's fireside chat certainly made it seem that Oliver had known for awhile. Re Quentin, he literally held against Oliver that Oliver didn't tell him Sara died on a different boat a year later instead of the original boat, a fact that Sara had plenty of opportunity to tell Quentin and chose not to. In other words, Quentin holds EVERYTHING against Oliver.

[BkWurm1]

I find it impossible to believe that Oliver did not know that the LOA would attempt to destroy SC at the time that he agreed to become RAG in exchange for LPing Thea. According to RAG it's a tradition, not a secret, and Oliver had a plan to deal with it, implying he knew about it. Oliver's fireside chat certainly made it seem that Oliver had known for awhile. Re Quentin, he literally held against Oliver that Oliver didn't tell him Sara died on a different boat a year later instead of the original boat, a fact that Sara had plenty of opportunity to tell Quentin and chose not to. In other words, Quentin holds EVERYTHING against Oliver.

I don't think I was clear.   I said I thought he probably found out after agreeing to use the LP on Thea but I should have wrote after finding out about the LP to use on Thea.  I think after Felicity left to do what was needed to get to NP is when there was a window for Malcolm to drop the other shoe.  I can't see any reason why Oliver would have withheld that important detail when he was debating accepting the offer in 4.16 and asking advice about it.  I think he found out and made his big plans with Malcolm after Thea was stabbed but yeah, before they were at NP.   

 

Any lies about Quentin's family are going to be met with a different reaction anyway.  I disagree he held everything against Oliver.  If he did, I think he would have let him get shot. 

[statsgirl]

I find it impossible to believe that Oliver did not know that the LOA would attempt to destroy SC at the time that he agreed to become RAG in exchange for LPing Thea. According to RAG it's a tradition, not a secret, and Oliver had a plan to deal with it, implying he knew about it. Oliver's fireside chat certainly made it seem that Oliver had known for awhile.

It's a tradition but it's a tradition that only gets pulled out every 200 years or so when there's a new Ra's  That's what i meant in saying that unless it's common knowledge to all the LoA, no one other than Ra's and the Heir is going to know about it because every who lived at the time of the last wipeout is going to be long dead.

 

Oliver must have had some way to contact MM all along, given that MM arrived for the fireside chat.  It's possible that that's when Oliver told him about the attack on Starling City and he developed the plan between the time Ra's told him and when he met with Malcolm. He'd already been in Nanda Parbat for 4 or 5 weeks at that point.

 

We'll knever know unless MG tells us,and maybe not even then given how prone he is to forgetting things that happened on the show.  (Seriously, there are fanfic writers who put more thought into the Arrow mythology than he does.)

[kismet]

A lot of the traditions & customs of LoA felt very fluid depending on how they suited the Heir to the Demon. It really felt like every new tradition came with a lot of fine print. And every week their was a new undiscovered tradition/custom. In many ways S3, felt like Ras's own personal reality show where he spends week after week making these grand gestures to woo OQ. I bet even if the alpha/omega virus had destroyed SC, there still would have been a stay-tuned for just after the commercial break twist. I get that the writers were trying to gradually build up the mythology of LoA & weave a tale, but in the end their scripts felt like a house of cards or a game of Jenga where it only took one piece to prove how weak their whole entire story was.

[yellowfred]

Any lies about Quentin's family are going to be met with a different reaction anyway.  I disagree he held everything against Oliver.  If he did, I think he would have let him get shot. 

 

I agree.  I do think Quentin was a lot harder on Oliver than he should have been, but I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that he was grieving (again) and also realizing that he couldn't trust him.  Like, honestly, I still have kind of a tough time forgiving Team Arrow for their role in the whole "Don't tell Lance his daughter is dead (again)," so I get Quentin's anger on that level.  I also think that he seemed to hold Laurel more or less equally culpable, but Oliver was the one he had the means to go after.  Not to say that I think he did the right thing or that he didn't cross a line, but I understood a lot of where he was coming from.  

 

The thing that bothered me more is how little Oliver stood up for himself in a lot of that.  I get that Oliver was in a bit of a self-loathing place at that point in the story, but a simple "I promise you that I wasn't the one killing people and I'm obviously against letting Roy take the fall for me" would have been nice.  I do hope that if/when Quentin and Oliver reconcile (which I'm still hoping for, at this point) there's a bit more honesty on Oliver's part and a lot more contrition on Quentin's.  

[kismet]

I need the fabulous Orlando Jones on Arrow S5, as Felicity new BFF's dad.

Saw this in the awards section. Totally agree. What an awesome idea by HappyHarpy! Perhaps Dad might be too old, but we need Orlando on the show somehow.

 

On other hope castings, I saw on Twitter today during the con people suggesting the Aisha Tyler be cast as Diggle's long lost sister. Also an amazing idea.

 

I don't know how we get these castings to happen or if these are the best character options, but we absolutely need both Orlando Jones & Aisha Tyler on s4/5 of ARROW in some type of capacity as friends to Team Arrow. :)

[wonderwall]

I wouldn't mind seeing Orlando Jones come onto the show as a recurring character... maybe as Team Arrow's doctor? IDK how they don't have a doctor on the side????

Edited September 6, 2015 by wonderwall

[Happy Harpy]

Perhaps Dad might be too old, but we need Orlando on the show somehow.

I think that Charlotte Ross and Orlando Jones are born the same year, so they could both play very young and absolutely fabulous parents on the show :D

Sleepy Hollow's loss would be Arrow's gain, definitely. 

[arjumand]

The thing that bothered me more is how little Oliver stood up for himself in a lot of that.  I get that Oliver was in a bit of a self-loathing place at that point in the story, but a simple "I promise you that I wasn't the one killing people and I'm obviously against letting Roy take the fall for me" would have been nice.  I do hope that if/when Quentin and Oliver reconcile (which I'm still hoping for, at this point) there's a bit more honesty on Oliver's part and a lot more contrition on Quentin's.  

 

Yes, absolutely.

 

I just rolled my eyes when I heard Quentin's super dramatic speech in the trailer - not again!

 

I just want Oliver to say something like - "Arrest me or don't, but I'm not having this conversation ever again". And then just walk away (possibly dropping a mic).

 

I'd also like someone to call Lance out on one thing - how exactly did people get to Roy in prison (jail? Prisonjail?), not once but twice? Why wasn't he in isolation or protective custody, seeing as the Arrow was the reason so many of the cons were there in the first place? Someone needs to tell Lance that we know he was using Roy as bait to for Oliver to break him out, and so whatever he thinks happened to Roy, Lance, as a police officer whose duty it is to serve and protect, is partially responsible (after having watched the UK cop series The Bill for many years, I know UK police have a "duty of care", but I don't know if that counts for the US too).

 

All that, and I have to ignore the can of worms of Lance assaulting a prisoner in handcuffs - seriously? Who wrote that? As my hope for the future, I'd like the writers to try to understand what being a police officer should mean, especially in fiction - I know no-one's perfect, but in previous seasons I never got the impression that Lance was a dirty/incompetent cop, just someone who struggled with alcoholism.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I would like character to trump plot, this season (now watch them make Lance an asshole again).

[EmeraldArcher]

My hope is that the whole "pretty bird" scenario that comics fans desperately want goes down exactly like this:

[Oliver is shirtless and focused as he does the salmon ladder in the new lair.]

Laurel: Oh, Ollie's such a pretty bird.

Thea: Yeah, my brother has always been something of a peacock.

Felicity: Nah, I think he's more of a cute little SpArrow.

(You're welcome!)

[Primal Slayer]

Lol well I don't see that making them happy since it's a nickname for Black Canary so reversing it doesn't really do anything.

[EmeraldArcher]

Lol well I don't see that making them happy since it's a nickname for Black Canary so reversing it doesn't really do anything.

I know it's the comics' OQ's nickname for her, but I couldn't resist the really, really corny dialogue I had stuck in my head. My real-life friends wouldn't have known what I was talking about, so I subjected the people here to it.

[lemotomato]

My hope is that "pretty bird" never ever makes it onto the show, in any context. It sounds weird even in the comics, as cheesy as the dialogue can get in that medium. For example: 

 

No, thank you.

[kismet]

Considering she got her big title when her father yelled at her in anger & sarcasm. I can imagine OQ yelling "pretty bird" to her in some sarcastic slightly agitated way. I imagine in a training scene, him saying something like "get your head in the game & stop being a pretty bird".

 

They never really do BC justice when they give stuff to LL, it always seems like the worst way they can introduce a BC thing. I have no idea why, but they literally can't seem to help themselves.

[NoWayOut]

Flashback to Oliver and Felicity at a bird park during their stay in Bali (one of the places they visited during hiatus).
 

Oliver: Hey, Felicity, look at that pretty bird!
 

Plot twist: Bird's name is Laurel.
 

Done. He called Laurel a pretty bird in the most believable and organic way!

[lexicon]

I cringe so hard at the thought of a man calling a woman "Pretty Bird" that if any man were to ever call any female on the show that name, I would be tempted to grab the nearest blunt object and conk him on the head with it. It apparently worked in the comics, but I hope the EP's are smart enough to stay far away from that one. To me, there's no way it can come across as anything other than demeaning. 

 

So @NoWayOut, your suggestion that may be the only one that may not leave me screaming at my screen in anger :)

[EmeraldArcher]

Gosh, I thought my silly little dialogue would induce groans and a few chuckles. I have a penchant for telling pretty lame jokes--I'm fearless and shameless that way.

For the record, I can't conceive of any scenario I could tolerate in which one human called another human "pretty bird."

[Genki]

Maybe if the villain called her "Pretty Bird"...because he is EVIL

[lexicon]

@Emerald Archer my comments and my ire were in no way directed at you. I hope that you did not feel that way, as it was certainly not my intention. Your comments were taken in the spirit in which they were intended and if anything its the people clamouring for the use of 'pretty bird' that really get me going. 

[EmeraldArcher]

Thanks, @lexicon, for your kind words and clarification! However, my latest comment was more of an apology for stirring the pot just so I could use "SpArrow" for Oliver, for which I played off the "pretty bird" controversy.

Honestly, I would never be able to see OQ calling LL that on Arrow in any way that wouldn't offend me and I can't understand why, when all else about them has deviated from the comics (except the fact that they've had an extremely tumultuous relationship), there are some people still hoping for it to happen.

My husband and I tend to use a variety of extremely goofy nicknames for each other that almost anyone else would find weird because they're based on inside jokes. So, I'm not opposed to fun or endearing nicknames because they are evidence of intimacy and playfulness and context not readily available to observers.

So, my hope is that Oliver and Felicity occasionally use nicknames for each other that cause their teammates to roll their eyes at the couple so blissfully in love.

[Morrigan2575]

There is no reason to use "pretty bird" that's not a Black Canary defining characteristic. Pretty Bird is a shipper thing, it's Lauiver shippers who want it.

The only time it should ever be used is if the show goes back to Lauiver otherwise it's a non issue.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[tarotx]

Dinah Laurel Lance is young compared to Oliver in the comics. Maybe it works better in that context. I've haven't found a comic reference diologue to see it's use in context.

I know he engraved her wedding ring with my pretty bird in a couple fan fictions I read.

[tv echo]

 

Here, GA looks like he's in his 40's, and BC looks young enough to be his daughter!

Edited September 14, 2015 by tv echo

[Starfish35]

I think there was quite an age difference between them in the comics, wasn't there?

[Sakura12]

Sara was already called little bird or something by the Captain of the Amazo and it was used in a derogatory way. I can't see how they could use it with Laurel without out sounding dumb or misogynistic. 

[Morrigan2575]

Here, GA looks like he's in his 40's, and BC looks young enough to be his daughter!

That's pretty much exactly their relationship until GA was de-aged post death. Oliver was in his 40s and Dinah was in her early/mid 20s.

[yellowfred]

Personally, I think the reason that "Pretty Bird" works in the comics (to the extent that it does, which is debatable) is because comics!Oliver is a lot goofier than show!Oliver.  I can't imagine any scenario in which show!Oliver would call Laurel "Pretty Bird," regardless of the status of their relationship.

Edited September 14, 2015 by yellowfred

[Primal Slayer]

I don't see anything wrong with it, it's a nickname he has for her. If they can find a good way to incorporate it into the show, cool, if they can't, cool. 

[Chaser]

I only want to hear Pretty Bird in flashback. Pre Island Ollie can call Sara Pretty Bird. He seemed the type to nickname (Speedy) and the Canary is Sara's.

But I would prefer never to hear it

Edited September 14, 2015 by 10Eleven12