Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note: As per this post in the Notes from the Mods thread. We now wish to move the conversation on from the Black Canary topic. At this point it has been covered thoroughly, so until there is anything solid from the show, we want you to please move on from that topic.

Thank you.

[DrSpaceman10]

I hope we at least get to see Felicity's house this season. We've seen Roy's, Oliver's/Thea's, Diggle's, Laurel's, McKenna's, Helena's and even Sara's clock tower.

[Password]

I hope s3 is where Felicity becomes a more fleshed out character. We know crumbs about her, and maybe that's how she wants it. But really, she's like the least fleshed out, most loved character I've ever come across.

[DrSpaceman10]

I'm worried about Oliver's baby storyline, I can't think of a single show where introducing a secret kid worked. I hope it's not a disaster, and please do not have Oliver lunge at the Baby Mama lol

[Morrigan2575]

I'm worried about Oliver's baby storyline, I can't think of a single show where introducing a secret kid worked. I hope it's not a disaster, and please do not have Oliver lunge at the Baby Mama lol

Charmed is the only show I can think of where I felt the introduction of a child totally worked and actually made for really interesting story telling.

 

I agree on the Arrow Baby Mama Drama...I don't see these guys being able to tell that story well.  On the bright side maybe the kid will live in a totally different city/state/country and only pops up for sweeps episodes.

[Password]

I for one hope Laurel doesn't disappoint us in her reaction. They already robbed us of a screaming fit after she found out about the Arrow.

[apinknightmare]

So, I'm doing a S2 rewatch, and last night was Heir to the Demon. Seeing it a second time after knowing how the season ends, Oliver's reaction to finding out Felicity's dad left her got me thinking. Does Oliver already know about his kid?

 

I realize that this is attributing a great deal of forethought to the writers who haven't always shown that they plan very well, but we all know they like to throw curveballs and "subvert expectations" or whatever. Ever since we found out that he has a kid, I've been worried about what's going to happen when he finds out. Curveball: he already knows. Maybe the mother contacted him when he came back to Starling from Lian Yu? She'd have to have kept the fact that Moira paid her off a secret, though, I think. This theory involves a lot of handwaving over whether or not Oliver knew that tidbit, and if so why he never got pissed at Moira over it. Unless we find out in another flashback that he DID get pissed at her. There are timing issues with this theory, but is it completely crazy?

 

The only thing that worries me about this scenario is that they'll try to drum up some drama with Felicity over it. They always seem to handle potential drama between the two of them pretty well, since it's over by the end of the episode. Although (this is me being naive) she might be understanding and try to convince him that he should reach out?

[dtissagirl]

So, I'm doing a S2 rewatch, and last night was Heir to the Demon. Seeing it a second time after knowing how the season ends, Oliver's reaction to finding out Felicity's dad left her got me thinking. Does Oliver already know about his kid?

 

@apinknightmare - you just made me go on a tangent here: what if the Baby Mama drama is dealt with in the flashbacks? Amanda Waller/ARGUS sure have the means and the motivation to dig up every dirty little secret Oliver had pre-island in order to manipulate him. They'd still have to figure out how to explain Oliver never confronting Moira about it , but, I dunno, what if Oliver actually was in Central City in the past, doing a mission for ARGUS, and met the kid already? If he had one of those skull bombs in his head it explains why he didn't run, nor contacted anyone in Starling.

 

In anyway, I would be pleasantly surprised if Baby Mama was flashback story, if only to avoid yet another point to several romantic triangles.

[Password]

It's worth a shot to speculate why Oliver didn't contact his family when he got off Lian Yu. Oliver keeps saying the things he did during the five years were terrible. I imagine s3 will show us just how bad it really got. Not to mention it may avoid baby mama drama which is always a positive.

I hope/think they won't allow Oliver junior to become too big of an onscreen presence. Flashbacks, fine. But Oliver actively playing daddy? Maybe for later seasons. Like SA this season he'll make choices as to how much of his humanity he wants back.

[apinknightmare]

 

@apinknightmare - you just made me go on a tangent here: what if the Baby Mama drama is dealt with in the flashbacks? Amanda Waller/ARGUS sure have the means and the motivation to dig up every dirty little secret Oliver had pre-island in order to manipulate him. They'd still have to figure out how to explain Oliver never confronting Moira about it , but, I dunno, what if Oliver actually was in Central City in the past, doing a mission for ARGUS, and met the kid already? If he had one of those skull bombs in his head it explains why he didn't run, nor contacted anyone in Starling.

 

In anyway, I would be pleasantly surprised if Baby Mama was flashback story, if only to avoid yet another point to several romantic triangles.

 

Highlight 1: That would be terrible and evil and I would love it so much. I can just picture Waller getting Oliver in the back of that car in Hong Kong and whipping out a photo of an infant and like, surveillance photos of the mother. I would cackle with glee if they handled it that way.

 

Highlight 2: Interesting, although the thought of Oliver having a skull bomb makes me :(

 

I wonder if this season instead of Oliver finding out he has a kid, it's going to be Oliver telling Diggle and Felicity he has a kid (and Laurel and everyone else, I guess). Maybe seeing Diggle with his baby makes Oliver want to have what he knows he missed, or maybe he'll realize that things worked out for the best as far as his child is concerned, and Oliver will keep tabs on him/her from a distance? I think staying away because the child is happy and safe would be one of the best kind of sacrifices that Oliver could make, and it would show HUGE character growth. Not staying away because he thinks he's no good for the child, but staying away because the child is happy, and he would interrupt that happiness? (I know, I know, a well-adjusted child on this show? NEVER) That way the kid could be acknowledged and we would know that Oliver loves him or her, but it would take care of the problem of having to bring a child actor on this show.

Edited July 18, 2014 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I think staying away because the child is happy and safe would be one of the best kind of sacrifices that Oliver could make, and it would show HUGE character growth. Not staying away because he thinks he's no good for the child, but staying away because the child is happy, and he would interrupt that happiness? (I know, I know, a well-adjusted child on this show? NEVER) That way the kid could be acknowledged and we would know that Oliver loves him or her, but it would take care of the problem of having to bring a child actor on this show.

 

THIS. And in the flashbacks, it would also help him become emotionally closed-off, if Waller dangles an instant family at him only to yank it away from him afterwards. Plus,

we know he'll have a good family example in Katana and Maseo for an extra parallel

.

 

Now I want this to happen. I wanna speak to the writers! /super old X-Files reference /showing my age

[apinknightmare]

THIS. And in the flashbacks, it would also help him become emotionally closed-off, if Waller dangles an instant family at him only to yank it away from him afterwards. Plus,

we know he'll have a good family example in Katana and Maseo for an extra parallel

.

 

Now I want this to happen. I wanna speak to the writers! /super old X-Files reference /showing my age

 

Yes, a thousand times yes! Now I'm going to be disappointed when it doesn't play out this way in the show.

[Starfish35]

Oh wow you guys. That's an amazing scenario. I want that to happen now. I'm going to be disappointed if it doesn't. :)

[apinknightmare]

Oh wow you guys. That's an amazing scenario. I want that to happen now. I'm going to be disappointed if it doesn't. :)

I can totally see Oliver watching Diggle with his baby, making decisions about his life based on his child and just finally breaking and admitting to it during a fight or something. If Oliver really was as upset about the miscarriage as he seemed at the end of Seeing Red and was somehow (whether it's through manipulation by Waller or just through life circumstances) kept away from the child, it would be incredibly difficult to watch Diggle as he gets to experience all the things Oliver missed out on.

[Starfish35]

I want this. I really really want this. It is so much better than the clichéd "mom turns up and Oliver finds out he has a child" scenario I was envisioning.

[KirkB]

That would be a very good way of having the kid be an ongoing presence IN the world without him or her having to be ON the show. Though I doubt the EP's would try something that subtle. Most likely they will be cramming baby drama down our throats.

Edited July 18, 2014 by KirkB

[Starfish35]

Reply to AnalyzeAndCritique (discussion of Felicity backstory) moved from Spoilers thread -

If you look at the difference between Arrow and a show like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and maybe think of Diggle and Felicity as Willow and Xander, I think it becomes more apparent what Arrow is doing wrong. BtVS was about Buffy's journey, but all of their supporting cast was also far more developed as characters than Arrow's is, and personally I think it was a better show for it. I love the Arrow cast (with one notable exception), but as far as I'm concerned BtVS was a far better show in terms of character development (and overall storyline plotting, but that's a different subject).

-

I hope this is the right thread this time.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Starfish35

[icandigit]

My one hope for season three is that Oliver gets to be a friend to Diggle and Felicity.There have been little snippets here and there but, few and far between.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I haven't watched BTVS in a long time. I remember liking it. I do remember the crew had lives outside of the Scooby Gang. I also remember their Scooby Gang growing all the time. I will take your word for it the characters were better developed. I remember a lot of HS BS which was expected as they were in HS. Even in HS I had a low tolerance for it.

I am not saying Felicity doesn't deserve some back story. To sum it up (I still have no idea what thread posts belong in) and not belabor the point. I don't think we have to concentrate on Felicity's back story. There is a huge difference between having one and giving it all to us. We don't have Oliver's complete back story. We learn as necessary. Consider Arrow as a book, Oliver meets Felicity and we don't spend three chapters reading about her life before Oliver. We learn about her as Oliver does. Arrow is very much first person given the emphasis on Oliver. It is Oliver's story so I would expect any other character's story to fall in line. Buffy was more a group collaboration.

The issue is really with the writing and the lack of consistency across the board. Also they rely on recycled tropes. Half the posts in this thread alone have more potential and are more creative than what we get.

[Morrigan2575]

Both Buffy and Angel dedicated episodes each season to developing supporting characters and most of those episode usually ranked among my favorite. The Zeppo is still a great episode that totally featured Xander and new characters and limited the Scooby Gang to about 5-10 minutes of episodes

In S2 we got 2 Laurel Centric episodes, 2 Diggle centric episodes, 1 Roy centric episode, 1 Lance centric episode and possible 1/2 Felicity centric episode (Time of Death...which was really more Lance Family Centric) and 1/2 Thea Centric episode (Deathstroke). Hell, both Sara and Barry Allen got 2 centric episodes each and they weren't even series regulars. In S1 we got a Diggle Centric episode, 2 Laurel Centric Episodes, 1 Thea Centric Episode and 1 Moira Centric episode.

The show does character centric episodes all the time, to say that Felicity doesn't deserve one or that one isn't needed to explore the character seems rather unfair. In order for a character to become well rounded and fleshed out they need the spotlight every once in a while and some times, some of the best episodes are centered around the supporting cast because it gives us a breath of fresh air (Keep You Enemies Closer and League of Assassins come to mind). Hell one of the best Supernatural episodes ever is Weekend at Bobby's and that featured the boys for all of 5-10 minutes.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[icandigit]

 

To sum it up (I still have no idea what thread posts belong in) and not belabor the point. I don't think we have to concentrate on Felicity's back story. There is a huge difference between having one and giving it all to us.

I think I get it. There are other methods of learning about a character.Throw away lines or having that character/other characters bring up events or stories that happened to the character. With this show I think it would be a legitimate fear that they would give one back story, in one episode and then neglect telling us more about the character for the rest of the season.

[Starfish35]

It is Oliver's story so I would expect any other character's story to fall in line. Buffy was more a group collaboration.

But my point is that Arrow should be more of a group collaboration. It IMO makes for a better show, and doesn't diminish Oliver's journey anymore than spending time on Xander and Willow diminished Buffy's journey.

I'm not taking about specifically focused episodes for the characters. I'm talking about how BtVS was able to weave the storylines of all three characters together as we went through the season, so that it's not like we have a focused episode here for one character and then you never hear anything about it for another 8-10 episodes. The storylines for each character carry on through each episode, intersecting with each other and the main season plot.

I would like to see them do a better job of this in Arrow, of weaving the storylines together over time rather than just give Diggle and Felicity spotlight episodes and then dropping the thread for the next 10 or so episodes. I don't know - does that make any sense? I'm trying to type this out on my phone - not sure I'm presenting my thoughts clearly.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

Reply to AnalyzeAndCritique (discussion of Felicity backstory) moved from Spoilers thread -

If you look at the difference between Arrow and a show like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and maybe think of Diggle and Felicity as Willow and Xander, I think it becomes more apparent what Arrow is doing wrong. BtVS was about Buffy's journey, but all of their supporting cast was also far more developed as characters than Arrow's is, and personally I think it was a better show for it. I love the Arrow cast (with one notable exception), but as far as I'm concerned BtVS was a far better show in terms of character development (and overall storyline plotting, but that's a different subject).

-

I hope this is the right thread this time.

 

 

Like Buffy, I'd like to see Team Arrow grow from the core three. It's not a member's only club. I actually liked when it was Oliver, Diggle, Felicity, Sara and Roy all working together or hanging out in the Arrow lair over it just being Oliver and Felicity touching each other's shoulders and making googily eyes at each other while Diggle cheered them on. I would've liked to see Diggle and Sara talking about the dangerous places they were in, Sara and Diggle training, Roy and Felicity, Oliver sharing beers with Diggle, seen Roy, Felicity, Oliver and Diggle at the bar while Sara makes them try her new drink inventions. Felicity talking with Roy, Oliver, Sara, Diggle and Roy going out and protecting the streets as a team with Felicity showing them where to go. But these writers are no Joss Whedon since they have trouble writing for an ensemble cast. They can write for one or two and everyone else gets sidelined. 

Edited July 21, 2014 by Sakura12

[Password]

@Starfish35 I don't think they ever set out to have the story (even though it's better that way) be about the group dynamic and how they make each other better. It felt like we got a glimpse of that in the first 9 episodes of s2 and it really worked very well, but then they flipped the script and went back to what they initially intended i.e. Laurel and Oliver's journeys to being heros. I agree that for the overall storyline it would be better to have their stories intertwine and mingle, but perhaps we as the audience expect one thing but really they're selling another.

Maybe I will be proved wrong (I hope so) and they realise how great team Arrow is and can be and how the trio working together sells very well, but so far everything in some way flows back to Oliver Queen.

[statsgirl]

I am not saying Felicity doesn't deserve some back story. To sum it up (I still have no idea what thread posts belong in) and not belabor the point. I don't think we have to concentrate on Felicity's back story. There is a huge difference between having one and giving it all to us. We don't have Oliver's complete back story. We learn as necessary. Consider Arrow as a book, Oliver meets Felicity and we don't spend three chapters reading about her life before Oliver. We learn about her as Oliver does. Arrow is very much first person given the emphasis on Oliver. It is Oliver's story so I would expect any other character's story to fall in line. Buffy was more a group collaboration.

At this point, I don't want a backstory on Felicity as much as I want to know who she is in the present.  What does she do when she's not in the lair with Team Arrow or working as Oliver's EA?  We know exactly five facts about her (she's Jewish, she dyes her hair, she's MIT 2009, her father left and her mother's in Vegas). As someone said, we know more about Deadshot than we do about Felicity.  

And who is also getting an episode of his own in 3x03, unlike Felicity)

 

Like Buffy, I'd like to see Team Arrow grow from the core three. It's not a member's only club. I actually liked when it was Oliver, Diggle, Felicity, Sara and Roy all working together or hanging out in the Arrow lair over it just being Oliver and Felicity touching each other's shoulders and making googily eyes at each other while Diggle cheered them on. I would've liked to see Diggle and Sara talking about the dangerous places they were in, Sara and Diggle training, Roy and Felicity, Oliver sharing beers with Diggle, seen Roy, Felicity, Oliver and Diggle at the bar while Sara makes them try her new drink inventions. Felicity talking with Roy, Oliver, Sara, Diggle and Roy going out and protecting the streets as a team with Felicity showing them where to go. But these writers are no Joss Whedon since they have trouble writing for an ensemble cast. They can write for one or two and everyone else gets sidelined. 

I wouldn't mind seeing Diggle talking with Sara or the two of them training Roy but what the writers did in the second half of s2 didn't work.  Roy got mirakuru'd and then disappeared for two episodes when Sara came to town, and while Diggle got his own episode, he pretty much disappeared during the others and Felicity was down to a couple of lines in some of the episodes.  If they can't write for an ensemble, I want them to concentrate on O/D/F which they can write very well.  Maybe they should do a 'down-time episode' to cover the other scenes.  Knowing they get along would be good I'm not really interested in seeing the group as a group if it means what I watch for gets lost.

[Sakura12]

I liked the way they wrote Team Arrow in season 1. I don't think they did that good of a job with the core 3 as a group in season 2. Dig was sidelined for Olicity scenes. He was basically there to react to them making googly eyes at each other or being the Arrow's silent partner out on the street. If you are a fan of Olicity, then it was probably really great for you. For non-shippers it was a little eye rolling. So again it was they they can write for one or two characters and everyone else gets sidelined.

 

I wasn't that interested in Arrow until they brought in Sara as the Black Canary. So Team Arrow wasn't the biggest draw for me. 

 

However if they are going to do Team Arrow then I want to see all three of them as the team, not Olicity with Diggle. I want Diggle to be more vocal  and not just making facial expressions in the background. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Sakura12

[BkWurm1]

I'd love more caper like scenes where the team has to pull off a bunch of moves to make the mission go right.  In this case when I say team, I'm happy to include everyone from Quentin to Nyssa if she's around. Let them all play their parts.  That can't happen all the time but it would make sure the writing gives everybody something to do.
 
Last season I really enjoyed when as a group the team  went out and did things.  Like blow up a Research and Development warehouse.  Everybody is there.  Everybody gets a job and a purpose.  Again, should be easy for the writers to include everyone.
 
More likely we are going to have the A plot and B plot and maybe a tiny C plot and  in the end at least one of the plots is loosely connect to some bad guy Arrow takes down.  The issue it seems to me is that the writers often take way to long to make the separate plots connect, leaving too many characters off doing their things alone. 
 
Using a stock example rather than a specific spoiler - some reoccurring guest star comes on for the season like a Blood or and Isabel or a Slade (or in season one happily a Felicity)  Blood only connected to three main characters in the show and even Moira was very limited. 
 
Mostly it was Oliver and Blood or Laurel and Blood and I think in both cases the writers did a poor job making me care about the guy.  They later claimed Oliver and Blood were friends but I only saw Oliver trying to get on Blood's good side (since he thought he was  a good guy) and failing.  I can't even tell you why  Blood and Laurel interacted, I remember they did but not why.  At one point I thought they were going to start dating but then that didn't happen but I don't remember why.  I can't even remember why Laurel got suspicious of Blood.  
 
Long explanation short, I think because Blood only interacted with basically two main cast members and those interaction really didn't affect the rest of the show or characters, those scenes were extremely forgettable.  If his scenes had impacted more characters and he did stuff that mattered right away as opposed to just doing stuff and us filing it away for later, I think the show would have had a better guest star.  I expect once again multiple guest stars will show up but if the show can't make them matter to more than one or two main characters, then they too will be forgettable.

 

Ray might avoid this problem since his character could affect anyone that Olive employed. (Roy, Diggle, Felicity) and he will have his secret agenda that also could bring in Laurel and Quenting . Or he could be an Isabel that shows up, causes some tension, but ultimately does almost nothing until the last couple episodes.

I

 

Slade was interesting because even before he interacted with the rest of the cast, his menace affected them.  Then before the season was done, he ran into Oliver, Sara, Moira, Thea, Roy, Laurel, Diggle and Felicity.  Of the three examples I listed, I think Slade was the most effective of the Guest Stars because he was involved in everyone's storyline, first as the scary idea in their heads and then face to face. 

 

Blood - Oliver, Laurel, Moira

Isabel - Oliver, Felicity, and a tad of Moira

Slade - EVERYBODY

 

My hopes for the next season,take whatever new guests are coming and use them with everybody.  (Flashbacks the exception) That will make for much more interesting viewing and then everyone has something to discuss thus again improving on writing for a group. 
 

[tv echo]

Based on the past two seasons, Felicity's back story will most likely tie back to something already mentioned on the show - like ARGUS or HIVE, thus tying it back to Oliver (like just about everything else on the show).  Since ARGUS is going to feature prominently this next season (Hong Kong flashbacks, as intimated at the end of "Unthinkable"), I could see them tying Felicity's father to ARGUS.  If they are going to pursue the mystery of who ordered the hit on Diggle's father, I could see them tying Felicity's father to HIVE. 

 

I even once speculated that Felicity's father was an old friend of Walter's and that both Walter and her father were tied to the LOA in some way, based on the following facts: Malcolm was in the LOA, Malcolm was friends with Robert and Moira, Walter was friends with them as well, Moira knew about the LOA, Walter asked Felicity for help in investigating Moira, Oliver was referred to Felicity for IT help by someone (Walter?).  But now I think ARGUS or HIVE makes more sense.

 

In case it just seems too coincidental that Felicity's father would be tied to ARGUS or HIVE, well maybe it's not.  Maybe Walter is connected to ARGUS or HIVE.  Maybe Felicity was hired to work at QC by Walter, who had promised her father that he would look after her.  This is all pure speculation, of course.

Edited July 22, 2014 by tv echo

[SonofaBiscuit]

I had posted this big long thing about Laurel in another thread but then realized many of the quotes had to do with that thing we're not to talk about right now, so here is the basic gist of what I posted:

 

Before season 2 started, Kreisberg gave an interview and talked about Laurel's evolution and how we get from point A to point B with her character.  About halfway through season 2, Kreisberg gave another interview about how they think about everything that they do, and they have a wonderful plan for Laurel.  With season 3 starting soon, Guggenheim gave a recent interview to tvline saying:

 

One of the things we’re most excited about is Laurel’s story. Everything that we’ve been gearing up for, for the last 46 episodes, will come to fruition

 

 

 

So, I basically think that the EPs are delusional.  They sure do like to keep promising things that never happen, so I wouldn't be surprised if nothing "comes to fruition" and when season 4 comes around, I can see them saying, "We have wonderful things planned for Laurel.  These last 69 episodes have all been leading up to this."  This actually makes me hopeful because maybe the EPs aren't as enamored with Laurel as it appears, and maybe she will be kept in a holding pattern all season long and then be written out. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[KirkB]

Technically, HAVING a plan doesn't mean anything. I can plan to date a supermodel and make millions of dollars. That doesn't mean I will. The EP's may well have had a lot of stuff planned for Laurel in the past. But then unexpected hurdles like KC's acting, budget cuts, Felicity's popularity or whatever happen and guess what? Plans change. That's why I generally ignore the majority of what the showrunners or even the stars say in interviews about what they plan or what they think it going to happen and focus on what is actually on screen.

[Tangerine]

The big hope/fear for me for this upcoming season is how they plan on handling the big Baby Drama storyline. Because I find there are very few shows that handle the secret love child storyline very well (I will never forgive you for that, Gilmore Girls.) Arrow's been fairly good at throwing curveballs, so I would love it if it turns out Oliver already knows about the child, or maybe we find out that the baby wasn't his after all. At the end of the day, I just really don't want this kid to turn out to be

Connor Hawke

because I'd rather not another comic book character be white-washed. As much as I like Bex Taylor-Klaus as Sin, it still bothered me a little. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by SilverStormm
Because Comic book talk.

[Mars477]

Considering how much the show likes to crib from Batman, I think it might be better for Sara's character as an assassin if she got herself Sasha Bordreaux'ed.  

 

Sasha Bordeaux is a pre-New 52 Batman character.  She's brought in as a bodyguard for Bruce Wayne who discovers his identity as Batman.  She works out, starts going out on patrols with Batman in a identity concealing suit, and eventually falls in love with him (being Bruce Wayne he's kind of a dick and makes her stick around while he's banging other women).  Anyways, shenanigans ensue and she becomes critically injured while in prison, and CHECKMATE fakes her death and recruits her (CHECKMATE is a bit like ARGUS but with less law enforcement and more black bag jobs and wet work).  Batman doesn't believe that she died and starts interdicting all of CHECKMATE's operations in Gotham City until he gets a meeting, and when they do meet they kiss  but Sasha tells Bruce that she's staying with CHECKMATE and moving on.

 

So, how to adapt that?  Sara Lance begins to find that, try as she might, she can no longer justify killing people for the type of clients that the League of Assassins serves.  She looks for an out that allows her to continue living with the only real skillset that she has, hurting people, while still using those skills for a higher cause.  And so she betrays the League of Assassins to CHECKMATE, a UN law enforcement/black ops division formed to check threats relating to the emergent Metahuman community.  The result: a bunch of dead or captured Assassins and an apparently dead Sara Lance who lives under a new name, doing bad things for a better cause.

 

Of course, Oliver doesn't believe that Sara is really dead.  Cue an arc where he tries to uncover the truth, finds out about CHECKMATE (probably thanks to Felicity) and disrupts their operations until he manages to find her again.  Same shit happens, and she disappears to reappear again in season/half season finales and what not.

 

Plus, it would free up the Canary name for Laurel to use without killing Sara off.  If Sara is going by Black Knight she can't be Canary, after all.

[Sakura12]

That could work and add to the how many times is Sara going to die and not actually be dead thing they have going on with her character. There are a number of things they can do with Sara's character, they can have be recruited to Team 7, Argus, Checkmate or follow the current comic storyline where the BC takes over the League of Assassins (her Nyssa can run it). 

 

Still, none of those options gives Laurel a good reason to take her sister's name, instead of coming up with her own name. I know they said that they have plenty of first versions of the hero name, but that's not true at all. No one else went by Deathstroke or the Arrow, only Slade and Oliver used those names. So having Laurel use a name that only means something to Sara, makes no sense. If Sara's not dead, that would make Laurel honoring her sister's memory even more pointless and all she's be doing is reaping the glory of what her sister did for the city. 

Edited July 25, 2014 by Sakura12

[KirkB]

Still, none of those options gives Laurel a good reason to take her sister's name, instead of coming up with her own name.

 

It might, if Laurel really thinks Sara is dead. She decides to take on the role herself, and where Sara was Ta-er al-Asfer (yellow bird) or Canary, Laurel becomes Black Canary both to differentiate herself from Sara and to mourn her (by wearing black).

[Sakura12]

I know Laurel fans use the color thing all time, but I really don't see how that makes it different. Sara's outfit is black and she calls herself the Canary. Oliver's outfit is green and he calls himself Arrow. I don't think the color is necessary either, it doesn't change the meaning behind the name Oliver and Sara choose for themselves. It's not like anyone calls Slade, Orange/Black Deathstroke. 

Edited July 25, 2014 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

Brought over from spoiler thread

Yep, I've encountered Laurel fans who weirdly dislike Diggle because he deigned to point out that Oliver had a blind spot where Laurel was concerned and was very rightly hurt when Oliver chose to save Laurel even though she was protected at the time instead of coming to Diggle's aid like he promised he would when they agreed to take Deadshot down. I remember really hating Oliver when he did that.

Refresh my memory, Oliver didn't leave Oliver to almost get killed by Deadshot and (was that?) Lyla get wounded to save Laurel. Laurel wasn't in danger, he left Diggle hanging to catch the bad guy that hired Gunn (don't remember the character name) because the guy was skipping town and Laurel needed him in order to do something lawyerish with that kid.

I could understand Oliver saving Laurel over saving Diggle but it wasn't the equivalent. Laurel wasn't in immediate or even near term danger.

[Carrie Ann]

Right, he left Diggle, Lyla, and a bunch of other agents in the lurch; those redshirts got killed and Deadshot got away. Laurel had a client, a kid who'd been orphaned at the beginning of the episode and who'd been targeted along with Laurel at her apartment. The guy was about to get on a plane and disappear, which I guess would have made the kid and Laurel unsafe forever or something? But yeah, the danger was less immediate.

[pootlus]

I think what irritated me about that wasn't even the 'Leaving Diggle in the lurch to save Laurel' thing, it was that it was blindingly obvious that this was going to happen from the moment the story was set up.  So not only was it stupid and pointless, it was obvious and boring.  There are better ways of setting up drama between Oliver and Diggle.

[stormborn]

Right, he left Diggle, Lyla, and a bunch of other agents in the lurch; those redshirts got killed and Deadshot got away. Laurel had a client, a kid who'd been orphaned at the beginning of the episode and who'd been targeted along with Laurel at her apartment. The guy was about to get on a plane and disappear, which I guess would have made the kid and Laurel unsafe forever or something? But yeah, the danger was less immediate.

 

Yeah I couldn't remember the exact sequence of events so thanks for this. It was really one of the shittiest things Oliver has ever done IMO. I think that's what also prompted Digg to leave the team for that one episode? 

[statsgirl]

Diggle knew Deadshot was going to be there and he asked Oliver to be his backup.  Then Oliver found out that the guy Laurel wanted to prosecute was leaving town so without telling Diggle, he went to get the guy for Laurel.  Lyla got hurt and some of her team died and Diggle quit.

 

Dramatically, it set up a conflict between Oliver and Diggle that Oliver had to grow emotionally to resolve, and it gave Felicity both a peacemaker storyline and the opportunity to go in the field in the casino with some pretty over-the-top innuendo.  And another scene of Oliver rushing in to save her.

 

Could they have done it another way?  I don't know.  But it really showed is that Oliver's blind spot with Laurel was so huge, no one else could count of him when he had Laurel stars in his eyes.  It also set up sleeping with her again.  I wonder if making Oliver stupid over Laurel here was set up with the s2 arc in mind where Oliver gets over her for good (I hope).  I don't think so, but it could be.

[Password]

I think Oliver choosing Laurel was meant to make us see he always chooses her and was supposed to be "oh it's so romantic". But all it did was aggravate the problem between the OTP because people saw Laurel as someone who makes Oliver stupid. Not stupid in love.

[Morrigan2575]

I think Oliver choosing Laurel was meant to make us see he always chooses her and was supposed to be "oh it's so romantic". But all it did was aggravate the problem between the OTP because people saw Laurel as someone who makes Oliver stupid. Not stupid in love.

If that was supposed to be romantic they screwed the pooch on that story line. You don't leave your teammate/partner/person that has saved your butt to potentially get killed because you want to make a chick like you.

That was so low and made me hate Oliver.

It kind of.came up again briefly in 202...where Oliver is trying so hard to make Laurel think good things about The Hood. ..I was glad Felicity and Diggle called him out on it.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm hoping to see more Oliver Queen in suspenders...any of the other men can join in as well.  Please make this happen, show.

[ban1o]

I think Olicity is in response to the fans though. Sure they expanded her role because they liked her but they wouldn't have actually paired her with Oliver if the fns didn't have such a huge response to it. They were pushing the Lauriver thing pretty hard and fans just weren't having it so they backed away from that. 

Also the reason she became a season regular is because she was a fan favourite. They're obviously going to listen to the fans, since they control the show. 

Edited August 1, 2014 by ban1o

[catrox14]

I think Olicity is in response to the fans though. Sure they expanded her role because they liked her but they wouldn't have actually paired her with Oliver if the fns didn't have such a huge response to it. They were pushing the Lauriver thing pretty hard and fans just weren't having it so they backed away from that. 

I

MO, based on what the  EPs and writers and network suits have maintained all along  and are continuing to maintain, is that that they saw the potential for Olicity precisely because of the chemistry between SA and EBR which was before any viewer saw it. It seems to me they wanted to do it anyway and that positive fan reaction confirmed what they already saw.  

[ban1o]

I

MO, based on what the  EPs and writers and network suits have maintained all along  and are continuing to maintain, is that that they saw the potential for Olicity precisely because of the chemistry between SA and EBR which was before any viewer saw it. It seems to me they wanted to do it anyway and that positive fan reaction confirmed what they already saw.  

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I'm not even saying listening to fans is a bad thing. But I don't htink they would have ever had liver and Felicity get together if it wasn't for the huge Olicity fanbase. Tom Welling and Allison Mack had great chemistry, by the EP's admission, but they never got them together in Smallville. 

[catrox14]

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I'm not even saying listening to fans is a bad thing. But I don't htink they would have ever had liver and Felicity get together if it wasn't for the huge Olicity fanbase. Tom Welling and Allison Mack had great chemistry, by the EP's admission, but they never got them together in Smallville. 

 

I don't see what Smallville has to do with this at all.  These aren't the same writers and showrunners.

 

EPs and writers will throw things off the track, but this is the one point where they have all been consistent about what they saw before any viewer ever saw anything. I see no reason to think they are lying.

Edited August 1, 2014 by catrox14

[statsgirl]

People who have never read a comic book in their lives know that Superman and Lois Lane are OTP.  I don't think they could ever have done Clark/Chloe just because of that.  On the other hand, Green Arrow is less well known and not always (i.e. only for a short time) with Laurel Lance.

 

Guggenheim wrote "It was a reaction to the chemistry between Stephen and Emily." 

 

He doesn't say whose reaction.  We know that after SA finished the scenes, he went to the EPs and said they have to keep the Felicity character around. We know that after the WB executive saw ep3, he sent a note that included telling them he wanted to see more of the blonde IT girl and Guggenheim felt happy to be able to tell him they had already planned on that.  This was long before the episode aired to viewers.

 

Hopefully they were going to cut the cord on Oliver/Laurel anyway before the show tanked.  EBR coming on was a happy chance.

[foreverevolving]

People who have never read a comic book in their lives know that Superman and Lois Lane are OTP.  I don't think they could ever have done Clark/Chloe just because of that.  On the other hand, Green Arrow is less well known and not always (i.e. only for a short time) with Laurel Lance.

 

Guggenheim wrote "It was a reaction to the chemistry between Stephen and Emily." 

 

He doesn't say whose reaction.  We know that after SA finished the scenes, he went to the EPs and said they have to keep the Felicity character around. We know that after the WB executive saw ep3, he sent a note that included telling them he wanted to see more of the blonde IT girl and Guggenheim felt happy to be able to tell him they had already planned on that.  This was long before the episode aired to viewers.

 

Hopefully they were going to cut the cord on Oliver/Laurel anyway before the show tanked.  EBR coming on was a happy chance.

You know, i wonder if perhaps they noticed early on that the lack of chemistry between stephen and Katie and decided do go all on with laurel and tommy while keeping a small window open for LxO while at the same time continuing to grow Felicity as a character and possible love interest in case nothing they'll do will be able to create any chemistry between LXO... ughh am I explaining it clearly? i feel like i'm not.

[dtissagirl]

You know, i wonder if perhaps they noticed early on that the lack of chemistry between stephen and Katie and decided do go all on with laurel and tommy while keeping a small window open for LxO while at the same time continuing to grow Felicity as a character and possible love interest in case nothing they'll do will be able to create any chemistry between LXO... ughh am I explaining it clearly? i feel like i'm not.

 

I would not be surprised one bit if this was EXACTLY what happened in S1. I don't think we're ever getting confirmation about this stuff, but the fact that later on they started doing chemistry tests for EVERYONE on both Arrow and Flash tells me they saw exactly who had chemistry with whom, and who didn't.