S01.E07: Horrible from Supper

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

As the men make new attempts to find rescue, a series of shocking events underscores how vulnerable and exposed their situation has become.

 

[formerlyfreedom]

A reminder; this topic is to discuss the episode. To discuss the book, or the actual historical events, please visit The True Story of the Franklin Expedition topic. Posts that are off topic here will be removed.

[Lamima]

I bet some of you Hickey fans aren't liking him so much now. 

Um, so the young Hickey who got his papers to work, at beginning of epi....that was real Hickey but this crazy guy is imposter?????  Yeah, no hero there.

 

I am sensing Hickey is the evil where the doctor is the good and one will prevail. Gosh, I wouldn't mind them going off facts and having the doctor and lady silence live and be happy together. Not gonna happen.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Lamima

[SoSueMe]

Is it some kind of identity theft with Hickey? Was he deranged in his past life as well?

Also the man who died, can't remember his name, did he shoot himself or did one of the others shoot him? Poor Goodsir, I hate to think what will become of him.

14 minutes ago, Lamima said:

I bet some of you Hickey fans aren't liking him so much now. 

Um, so the young Hickey who got his papers to work, at beginning of epi....that was real Hickey but this crazy guy is imposter?????  Yeah, no hero there.

 

I am sensing Hickey is the evil where the doctor is the good and one will prevail. Gosh, I wouldn't mind them going off facts and having the doctor and lady silence live and be happy together. Not gonna happen.

We seem to be on the same wavelength :)

[SimoneS]

Gawd, where to start? The little positive; I loved Jopson's surprised reaction to his promotion and the support he got from the officers. So well deserved. Francis is a superior commander. In addition to showing good judgement in promoting Jopson and refusing to give Hickey et al. guns, it is admirable that he taking the lead pulling the boats and scouting. James has also come into his own.

Now for the whole of bad. Damn the spirit bear for decapitating those men. Poor Goodsir. He comforts the troubled sailor, only to lose another and have to tend the dead monkey. At least, the Inuit woman comforted him. It looks so cold out there, I don't know how most of the men aren't suffering from hypothermia. Their clothes look barely warm, especially compared to the Inuits and their thick furs.

Now for the worse of the worse, fucking Hickey. He kills the dog, stirs up a mutiny, and then kills the sailors causing them to lose their one chance to get help from the Inuits to survive. Fucking Hickey. May he die a fucking painful death.

Just a warning: Don't look up the show on Wikipedia. I went there to see how many episodes we were getting and the whole season was spoilt there.

On 4/30/2018 at 9:55 PM, Lamima said:

Um, so the young Hickey who got his papers to work, at beginning of epi....that was real Hickey but this crazy guy is imposter?????  Yeah, no hero there.

It was the same Hickey in the flashback, but he knew nothing about sailing. I wouldn't be surprised if he is an imposter who killed the real Hickey.

Edited May 2, 2018 by SimoneS

[Lamima]

20 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Gawd, where to start? The little positive; I loved Jopson's surprised reaction to his promotion and the support he got from the officers. So well deserved. Francis is a superior commander. In addition to showing good judgement in promoting Jopson and refusing to give Hickey et al. guns, it is admirable that he taking the lead pulling the boats and scouting. James has also come into his own.

Now for the whole of bad. Damn the spirit bear for decapitating those men. Poor Goodsir. He comforts the troubled sailor, only to lose another and have to tend the dead monkey. At least, the Inuit woman comforted him. It looks so cold out there, I don't know how most of the men aren't suffering from hyperthermia. Their clothes look barely warm, especially compared to the Inuits and their thick furs.

Now for the worse of the worse, fucking Hickey. He kills the dog, stirs up a mutiny, and then kills the sailors causing them to lose their one chance to get help from the Inuits to survive. Fucking Hickey. May he die a fucking painful death.

Just a warning: Don't look up the show on Wikipedia. I went there to see how many episodes we are getting and the whole season was spoilt there.

It was the same Hickey in the flashback, but he knew nothing about sailing. I wouldn't be surprised if he is an imposter who killed the real Hickey.

 

They did two flashbacks. The first was a rosey cheeked boy getting his assignment papers and the second he had a beard and even mentioned it. Looked like different guys to me but could be he stole the identity prior to getting the papers.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Lamima

[SimoneS]

3 minutes ago, Lamima said:

They did two flashbacks. The first was a rosey cheeked boy getting his assignment papers and the second he had a beard and even mentioned it. Looked like different guys but could be he stole the identity prior to getting the papers.

Thanks, I missed the first flashback. I am more convinced than ever that the Hickey on the ship is an imposter.

[tennisgurl]

Fucking Hickey. I hope you get eaten by an ice monster you piece of crap. They could have had a chance to get help, but no, that garbage person Hickey murdered everyone and ruined everything. Also, he apparently isnt even the real Hickey! Maybe he was crazy or a murderer even before this, and was trying to escape something he already did in the UK?

Poor Goodsir. He is just trying so hard to help the men and offer comfort to them and keep things under control, but he spent the whole episode looking like he was on the verge of tears, before finally breaking down. lady Silence hugging him was so sweet though, it made me want them to somehow survive this and live happily every after studying plants and guarding ice monsters, but thats probably not meant to be. 

Crozier really is a good commander. Now that he has kicked the booze, he is making a lot of good choices, like not trusting Hickey, and promoting Jopson, and not letting the men know that the poor search party are dead. I also like his increasing partnership with James. Jopson getting promoted was a nice little moment, as was all the officers congratulating him. Very well deserved, he seems like a very decent, put together person. Lord knows we need more of that now. 

Put on a shirt Hickey, you are not hot enough for shirtless duty. Actually, losing a shirt makes it more likely that he`ll freeze to death...take it all off! 

Edited May 1, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Crone]

“Hickey” is a sociopath. I thought applicant Hickey looked different from the man who boarded the ship, but didn’t make the connection. I agree with whoever said that he probably murdered the real Hickey. And then “Hickey” kills Irving just when they might have found a rescue or at least bartered for food. I think he distrusted Irving and was afraid he would tell Crozier about catching Hickey and Manson (?) in the hold that night. Sociopaths are totally self-centered.

I’m really enjoying sober Crozier. He wouldn’t arm certain men in spite of the marine’s request- one of the men was Hickey. Although Crozier suspects them, I don’t think he knows how deep the depravity goes. Hope that doesn’t come back to bite him. 

Goodsir is trying so hard to help everyone. It’s heartbreaking to watch. 

Edit: Tennisgurl beat me to it and said it so much better! :-)

Edited May 1, 2018 by Crone

[tennisgurl]

Awwwww thanks @Crone thats so sweet! May you never crash your boat into ice monster infested areas! 

[SimoneS]

On 4/30/2018 at 10:50 PM, Crone said:

And then “Hickey” kills Irving just when they might have found a rescue or at least bartered for food. I think he distrusted Irving and was afraid he would tell Crozier about catching Hickey and Manson (?) in the hold that night. Sociopaths are totally self-centered.

 

I think that Hickey killed Irving and the other sailor because they found help and that would have destroyed his plan to takeover from Crozier.  His face the moment they saw the Inuit was surprise and disappointment. Hickey wants to be the leader, show Crozier and the others who have no use for him that he can be charge and save them all.

Edited May 2, 2018 by SimoneS

[maystone]

I'm watching the second showing, and it does clear up the confusion I had about Hickey's enlistment. I missed some of the dialogue, so I thought it was showing Hickey signing on for his first voyage and then jumping ahead about 10-15 years to his current enlistment. Because really, original Hickey was in his teens, but a month later a full-grown man with a sporty beard and mustache shows up. So yeah, imposter. But up until Hickey killed his search team, I thought he was conspiring with some others to desert out of pure self-interest. Now he seems to me to be dangerously depraved. Still wicked smart though - taking his outer clothes off so he doesn't get blood all over them. I wonder if he'll blame the murders on the Inuit or Tuunbaq or if he'll just report back that they disappeared. Crozier's onto him - at least there's that.

Poor Jacko is still being carted around by Mr. Goodsir. Poor Neptune is now dinner. I'm not holding out much hope for the poor ship's cat; not many rats running around the ship I'm guessing. At least all of the animal deaths were off screen, which sounds like a horrid thing to say when so many human characters are suffering and dying, but they signed up for the trip. The animals, not so much.

Like the rest of you, I'm hoping like mad that Goodsir survives this somehow, if Lady Silence vouches for him with Tuunbaq. Assuming she isn't on the run from him herself, of course. I think she may be with them to try to protect them, as well as having maybe a better chance of surviving with a group than on her own. Maybe? Yeah, I know, depends on who's in the group.

I love that James has come to respect and like Francis. I'm enjoying the hell out of Jared Harris and Tobias Menzies. There should be a slew of Emmy noms for this series, and for those two actors in particular. And, well, actually all of them. There's not a single actor who isn't top-notch.

[LittleIggy]

Yeah, I was like “that kid isn’t Hickey!” Then later the “Ah-ha” moment.

Glad we never saw much more than a few glimpses of Neptune. If he had been shown being Crozier’s faithful Newfie, I would have lost it when his death was revealed (Yeah, I’m one of those people). Eff you, Hickey. May you die a horrific death for what you do to humans and non-humans alike.

[slothgirl]

3 hours ago, Lamima said:

I bet some of you Hickey fans aren't liking him so much now. 

 

haha.. I was going to say the same thing.. Anyone still not repulsed by Hickey?

Like another poster upthread, I was also thinking that the 1st flashback was much further in the past and was trying to make sense out of how different HIckey looked by time passing. But clearly our current Hickey is an imposter.

He also show at the least, insolence, right from the start by dropping his bag down the ladder without any sense of respect for others below or proper ship's behavior. It's obvious from the get-go that insubordination could be an issue with this guy. "First flashback Hickey" had a completely different demeanor

When he is talking to the others around the boats, and then again in the tents, about their situation, it can ALMOST seem like he has reasonable points. Yes, there isn't enough food. Yes, the facts are being kept from everyone. Yes, a few caribou aren't going to feed all those guys indefinitely. (on the other hand, if they find caribou where they ARE and they are planning to continue south regardless, it can be assumed that game might become MORE plentiful, not less)

But Hickey is taking far too much pleasure in planting his seeds of discontent and mutiny. He was going beyond just trying to line up potential fall back options when things go off the rails... he WANTS them things to become desperate. That was obvious to me even before he started helping disaster along by killing people. That guy who Hickey asked to make him his 2nd when the mutiny comes better watch his back. 

I think he could have been just as interesting a character if developed as someone who was basically no worse than any of the others except possibly a little more self-serving, but who is just seeing the writing on the wall, and laying plans to deal with it when it happens... a sort of reflection of Crozier and Franklin but this time with Hickey and Crozier. He's always been a little too mustache twirling for my taste and I may be the only one here who thinks the character lacks enough dimension in the combination of how he's written, directed, or acted. The actor sometimes succumbs to cliche' in his expressions in scenes that don't require it, and other times he seems to bring nuance that is sorely lacking in the way the character is written or directed. Its felt very uneven to me, and not in a good "this character is complex and I don't have him figured out yet" way. From the start I had him pegged as major trouble. What's uneven is whether we get a 2 dimensional portrayal or a 3 dimensional one. Snidely Whiplash or complex psychosis.

It would help (for me) if he didn't have such a cliche mustache and pointy beard combo. He looks like they drew a cartoon and then found an actor that fit the look.

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

 Damn the spirit bear for decapitating those men. Poor Goodsir. He comforts the troubled sailor, only to lose another and have to tend the dead monkey. At least, the Inuit woman comforted him.

 

Do we know that the spirit bear did it? Not that I know who else might have, but with this show, it could be anything. A few survivors could have cannibalised the rest. And what happened to the rest of them? Weren't there 50 in that party? It seemed like there were only the remains of 1/2 dozen or so. They had a year to get buried under snow, but it seems either we should have seen more bodies or none. Did the bear go back and constantly remount a few heads on top of snow banks? Or maybe make a larder and over time do it so that only a few are now visible? Will we ever know?

Hickey sees the bond between Goodsir and Lady S... that doesn't bode well for either. I still don't know why she is with them. She clearly cut out her tongue as part of the ritual to become the "handler" for our giant polar sloth. But is she unable to survive on her own without her father? Doesn't she know where other natives are? And how does someone eat and swallow without a tongue? The tongue is pretty big (much bigger than we deal with consciously in our mouth) how far back did she cut?

I'm glad Crozier pointed out how hard it is for even the natives to learn how to hunt seal in those ice holes... seems damn near impossible to me! Why did the sailors have an ice hole of their own with the fire in it? I never understood that.

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I think that Hickey killed the Irving and the other sailor because they found help and that would have destroyed his plan to takeover from Crozier.  His face the moment they saw the Inuit was surprise and disappointment. Hickey wants to be the leader, show Crozier and the others who have no use for him that he can be charge and save them all.

Hickey doesn't care about saving them all. He's deranged. He only uses people, and only those who serve his purpose will be on his list to save and only until his purpose for them is served. He will eat every one of them alive (literally and figuratively) if it guarantees his survival. If anyone else does survive with him long enough for rescue to be in sight, he will kill them at the last minute to preserve his secrets.

Edited May 1, 2018 by slothgirl

[slothgirl]

Oh.. and that guy who talked about how the carnival affected him? Emmy nod for him too please! That was heart-wrenching.. and SO well written!

[Hazel55]

5 hours ago, Lamima said:

I bet some of you Hickey fans aren't liking him so much now. 

 

I still believe he's merely misunderstood! :Ducks and waits for the inevitable volley of rocks thrown my way.:

Naw, kidding. Hickey is clearly a bad 'un, and now he's done lost it! 

As for "fans," despite the fact that the guy was my favorite character during the first four episodes (the fact that he appeared to be an utter outsider-- a gay Irishman amongst 1840's brits-- created sympathy that went a long way in explaining some of his more troubling actions up until that point), since he was revealed to have stolen the ring off of the corpse of poor Young in episode 5, I've been eying him wearily. And his decision to poke at the comatose guy's brain (??????!!!!!!!) last episode for no reason whatsoever last episode, it became clear that something was very "off" with the guy, morally and psychologically. 

IMO, the reason why some of us were fans of the guy in the beginning is that, in addition to Hickey rather bravely navigating a world that keep insisting that his natural sexual preferences are "an abomination," is in the first episodes, the guy's actions are presented in a profoundly ambiguous light; sometimes he does selfish or self serving things, but it's unclear why he does them. However, following the (again) totally unprovoked and cruel "brain incident" last episode, it became clear he was (in the very least) a bit of a sadistic sicko.

And now that he's massacred numerous innocents... um... yeah. A delightfully drawn villain, though. It can't be easy being so bad you make the Tunbaq look good.

1 hour ago, slothgirl said:

I may be the only one here who thinks the character lacks enough dimension in the combination of how he's written, directed, or acted. The actor sometimes succumbs to cliche' in his expressions in scenes that don't require it, and other times he seems to bring nuance that is sorely lacking in the way the character is written or directed. Its felt very uneven to me, and not in a good "this character is complex and I don't have him figured out yet"

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you on a few different points, here. 

First, despite the fact that Hickey is clearly and unambiguously evil, I personally think that the writers characterization of him has been subtle and masterful. Particularly interesting is the "slow burn" regarding his true moral character. From the beginning, the writers have been dropping subtle hints that something is "off" with the guy; yet (at least initially), there was also a good deal of ambiguity about his true feelings and motives. 

IMO, the slow reveal of his corrupted moral character has been fascinating to watch, and has made for a very nuanced character. It is interesting to think that the way I viewed him in the beginning (a little bit smug, superior, and self serving, but basically a decent guy) is the way he still appears to many of the crew members, who lack our "insider knowledge" about his behind the scenes activities.

Also, the fact that there's been so much heated argument (and discussion) about this character thus far indicates (to my mind) that he's made quite an impression. If he were truly one dimensional, I doubt he'd provoke such strong reactions, in both his detractors and his defenders. Last weeks thread was hijacked by an intense "is Hickey good or bad" argument. More than half of the posters this week have taken space to specifically vent their anger at the character. These things indicate he's having quite an effect on the shows viewers, which I doubt would be the case if he were one dimensional.

As for the actor, I think he's doing a fantastic job in portraying him, simply fantastic. There may not be much subtlety in his performance at this point, but I'd argue that there's little subtlety in Hickey's characterization at this point either. 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Hazel55

[slothgirl]

16 minutes ago, Hazel55 said:

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you on a few different points, here. 

As I said... I may be the only one here who thinks the characterization waffles between a 2 dimensional stereotype and a complex 3 dimensional psychotic character. I didn't expect anyone to agree. Compared to 90% of what's on tv, it's outstanding... compared to some of what this show has given us, it's at a lower level. For this viewer, anything provocative about the character has come from the plot developments involving him, not the nuances of how it is played in individual scenes.

"There may not be much subtlety in his performance at this point, but I'd argue that there's little subtlety in Hickey's characterization at this point either. "

In a way, you just agreed with me. ;)

There's always room for subtlety; the fact that we know better just who this guy is doesn't change that. There have been MANY great scenes in movies and tv shows where we knew who a character was or what was probably going to happen and yet there was subtlety to the portrayal.

And even you are admitting that it is lacking here. ;)

Edited May 1, 2018 by slothgirl

[Sighed I]

Every time something hopeful happens, something terrible swallows it up. :( Irving (and Farr, the guy waiting behind with Hickey) were so relieved to come across the Inuit group and Hickey murdered them before they could tell anyone. I also think he murdered them because they were loyal to the Captain and now there are two fewer "loyalists" to back him up. He deliberately sabotaged an opportunity for his shipmates to get fresh food for his own personal benefit. Obviously the Inuit wouldn't have enough for them all, but they might have shared information or knowledge which would help them find game on their own.

The schemers weren't wrong, in the sense that with the kind of numbers they have, even if they find game it won't be enough to sustain them all. But they don't have the right to decide who lives or dies, and once again, Hickey is operating full steam ahead on partial information. He's not wrong in his observations; something's wrong with the food and command is lying about it. He's wrong in his interpretation of what it means, and using it to stir up discontent.

What would anyone do in a situation like that? If you don't eat you'll starve, but if you do, you'll be slowly poisoned until you lose your mind. I don't envy Crozier that decision; he's pretty much in an impossible situation.

Yay! Tom Hartnell's with the Captain. I've always liked him, so I'm glad I can continue to do so. ;) I'm bummed out about Tozer, because I liked him too, but I'm not entirely surprised. After his friend got his skull torn open, he was talking about how the Marines didn't volunteer for this mission, don't get bonus pay, have to be on the front lines when Tuunbaq attacks, where they're the first cut down. They were sitting in the mess hall. When I saw Hickey there at the next table, listening intently while pretending he wasn't, I knew this wouldn't be the last we'd hear of it. I have to admit I suspected he might join the mutiny, but I really was hoping I was mistaken.

He did tip his hand, though, when he asked Crozier about arming some of the other men. Thank you Lt. Little for asking him for names of those he had in mind! Otherwise, Crozier might have gone along with it, because initially, he looked like he was agreeing with the Sgt. Crozier has a great poker face. Jared Harris is amazing. Every time I think he couldn't impress me more, he blows me away with another fantastic performance. I don't know how he did it, but I saw the moment he knew something was hinky with Tozer's request, even though his expression didn't change. He tells us, the audience, so we know he knows, without tipping off the Marine, and it's totally believable. I really do hope he's not completely taken by surprise. Something Crozier has to his advantage is experience. He's been in situations, multiple times, when he's had to deal with starving and desperate men. He knows the signs. I really hope he follows his instincts.

Collins' confession to Goodsir was heartbreaking. The actor is soooo good, and I really like his character; I wish we could have seen more from him during the show's run. He made such an impression on me in the first episode (that diving scene remains one of the most haunting sequences of the entire show, and one of my favorites), I really wanted to know more about him, before he went mad and his mouth started watering for his dead friends' burnt flesh. :(

Speaking of heartbreaking, Goodsir's breakdown slayed me. I loved the gentle comfort Lady Silence gave him. She really does care about him. Can't they go run off together and live happily ever after? :`( Honestly, the performances just keep getting better and better. I love how nuanced and understated they are.

Just before Crozier leaves the ship, he closes a locker which had been left open. It had the initials "EC" on it. Anyone know who (or what) that might stand for? On this show, every detail matters, plus the camera stayed on those initials a beat longer than you'd expect if it were insignificant.

I'm glad there were some supportive and affirming moments to lighten some of the darkness. I thoroughly approve of Jopson's promotion. The Captain needs people he can trust in his inner circle. If you can't trust the man who nursed you through a lengthy, painful withdrawal, who can you trust? It really was heartwarming to see the other officers welcome him into their ranks.

I do feel badly for Lt. Hodgson, though. Has anyone noticed the people Hickey targets are usually vulnerable in some way? Manson doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed, Gibson is dickmatized and, I don't know, but he's bugged me from the beginning. He's always come off as weak-willed, and easily manipulated. Tozer's bitter. Now we have him trying to turn a Junior Officer who didn't get the promotion and doesn't rank high enough to be completely in the know. It's funny though, Hodgson tells Hickey he's not up to the task of being a captain, which is probably why Crozier didn't choose him when he needed to fill a vacancy!

Hickey's gone off the rails now, plus we find out he's not even really Cornelius Hickey! What happened to the real one?? He murdered Neptune (it was so heavily foreshadowed, I knew he was going to, but still) and even Lt. Hodgson didn't believe the "dog broke his leg" story. I'm becoming much firmer in my conviction that "Hickey" truly is a sociopath. I'm not sure if he murdered the real Cornelius, but even if he didn't, the extremities of their situation unleashed this monster he's always had inside of him, IMO. It's kind of like how on Walking Dead regular everyday guys turn into Heads in Fish Tanks governors and backbending, scenery chewing (and chewing...and chewing) despots who won't die when civilization ends. Thus ends the only reference I will make to that dried husk of what used to be my favorite show in my now favorite, vastly superior show's forum. No, I'm not the least bit bitter! Ahem. ;) Speaking of unleashing monsters, where's Tuunbaq? Or maybe, he's already there...

I'm glad Blanky is with them. He is one tough bastard; I shouldn't have underestimated his strength and determination. He's one of my favorites.

I want to give accolades to the entire cast. So many of the same actors get all the kudos, but all the performances are top notch. I could seriously go down the list of characters and gush about one after another, but given how much I've already written, I think that's enough squeeing for now. ;)

[SimoneS]

I am enjoying this show so much, but sometimes my stomach clenches as the men's futures become bleaker. Like Irving, I almost jumped for joy when they saw the Inuit, only for Hickey turn it into brutal defeat. I dread losing the wonderful Jopson (and the other leftenants), Goodsir, James, Francis, and Blanky. I don't know if I can bear watching them die under these horrendous circumstances caused by John's incompetence and Hickey's schemes.

 

6 hours ago, slothgirl said:

haha.. I was going to say the same thing.. Anyone strpose will be on his list to save and only until his purpose for them is served. He will eat every one of them alive (literally and figuratively) if it guarantees his survival. If anyone else does survive with him long enough for rescue to be in sight, he will kill them at the last minute to preserve his secrets.

Maybe, but until I see something different, I see Hickey as a calculating sociopath rather than deranged. 

[pasdetrois]

I stay up late just to watch this series each week - it's riveting. The great acting continues...I'm going to stalk all of Jared Harris' work.

However I was confused about Hickey's purpose in talking about the dog as meat. Given that the crew knows hunting is difficult, was he hinting that he and his gang resort to cannibalism in order to survive?

I wonder how often mutiny was a factor in these conditions. The show seems to be telling us that the captain is on to some of the crew's dangerous intentions. Has previous experience taught him to watch for the signals?

[CoachWristletJen]

I'm enjoying the connection between Goodsir and Lady Silence... short-lived and doomed as it may be. I'm a sucker for international romances.

[Lamima]

4 hours ago, Sighed I said:

 

Just before Crozier leaves the ship, he closes a locker which had been left open. It had the initials "EC" on it. Anyone know who (or what) that might stand for? On this show, every detail matters, plus the camera stayed on those initials a beat longer than you'd expect if it were insignificant.

 

Was it the door to the stairs? Was that the spot they showed imposter Hickey meeting, was it Jopson? at the beginning of the expidition, and being told where to go and Hickey didn't know and said he was trying a new adventure or whatever. Maybe those are the imposter's real initials?

Rewatching now to see....

looks like it was a locker and the only one open. Bet it's imposter Hickey's and his real initials. His is open and not closed like the others to show another act of not doing what he's supposed to and not doing what everyone else did...closed their lockers??????????

Edited May 1, 2018 by Lamima

[shrewd.buddha]

So Hickey was always a  sociopath. Is he now a sociopath driven insane by lead poisoning? 
All the men seem capable of losing their sanity at any moment.

There is something profoundly sad about knowing their ultimate fate while seeing them desperately trying to survive. 

Crozier appears to be a good leader, despite the alcoholism. But I disagree with his decision to keep secrets from the men for their own good. Not telling the men about the tainted food and dead rescue party gives opportunity for mistrust and mutiny by people like Hickey. There is no way to keep a secret in this group of people. 
And it always seems that the people who believe they are in the right to keep such secrets are also acknowledging they consider themselves to be more rational, better suited,  better educated, ... basically 'better' than the uniformed people. 

Edited May 1, 2018 by shrewd.buddha

[Lamima]

1 hour ago, Lamima said:

Was it the door to the stairs? Was that the spot they showed imposter Hickey meeting, was it Jopson? at the beginning of the expidition, and being told where to go and Hickey didn't know and said he was trying a new adventure or whatever. Maybe those are the imposter's real initials?

Rewatching now to see....

looks like it was a locker and the only one open. Bet it's imposter Hickey's and his real initials. His is open and not closed like the others to show another act of not doing what he's supposed to and not doing what everyone else did...closed their lockers??????????

It's a locker and it does look to be imposter Hickey's as at the end Irving is there to assign it to him and he says he's trying everything new when Irving says 'are you trying something new?'.

[SoSueMe]

8 hours ago, slothgirl said:

 

Do we know that the spirit bear did it? Not that I know who else might have, but with this show, it could be anything. A few survivors could have cannibalised the rest. And what happened to the rest of them? Weren't there 50 in that party? It seemed like there were only the remains of 1/2 dozen or so. They had a year to get buried under snow, but it seems either we should have seen more bodies or none. Did the bear go back and constantly remount a few heads on top of snow banks? Or maybe make a larder and over time do it so that only a few are now visible? Will we ever know?

Really interesting. I can't remember where I read it, maybe googling the actual expedition, but I did read that where cannibalism occurs it is common that heads and hands and feet are cast away because they are just too human compared to the rest of the body. I guess the taboo is just so inbred/hardwired that for most it is nearly impossible. Of course, desperate times/desperate measures. And then you have your sociopath angle. 

[CoachWristletJen]

1 hour ago, shrewd.buddha said:

So Hickey was always a  sociopath. Is he now a sociopath driven insane by lead poisoning? 
All the men seem capable of losing their sanity at any moment.

There is something profoundly sad about knowing their ultimate fate while seeing them desperately trying to survive. 

Crozier appears to be a good leader, despite the alcoholism. But I disagree with his decision to keep secrets from the men for their own good. Not telling the men about the tainted food and dead rescue party gives opportunity for mistrust and mutiny by people like Hickey. There is no way to keep a secret in this group of people. 
And it always seems that the people who believe they are in the right to keep such secrets are also acknowledging they consider themselves to be more rational, better suited,  better educated, ... basically 'better' than the uniformed people. 

Crozier has made some bad decisions. Alcoholics still make them in early months of recovery. (Not that we can necessarily blame it on that by any means.)

That being said, I find his flaws far more tolerable than Sir John's, who would never have gained any insight into his men sitting atop a sledge. I have far more respect for a leader who actually walks among his men. Crozier seems smarter and he certainly had a much better handle on the big picture. Now he's trying to make the best of an impossible situation set up by Sir John.

I enjoyed the fact that Sir John was disappointed in how little Crozier had to say to the men when they first went out to scout. Such a sharp contrast to the windbag. However, when he does have something to say, when it's time to direct, to enlighten and encourage, he's more eloquent than the Captain he replaced. (In fairness, the windbag meant well, and there have been far worse Captains. He's just a victim of his own hubris.)

[proserpina65]

So does anyone still think Hickey is just underhanded and conniving but not really a bad person?  Or even Cornelius Hickey at all, apparently.  The impression is that he murdered the real Hickey to get his place on the Terror.

Man, that was brutal.  They find help only to have 'Hickey' kill the lieutenant and the other guy with them, most likely so that he can blame it on the Inuit.  Hopefully he won't kill them, but he has guns and they don't.  And I don't believe for a moment that he found the dog with a broken leg; he killed it because he wanted to, pure and simple.  He's a sociopath.

I just knew, when my satellite system's description of the episode was basically "they find out how deep in the shit they really are", it would mean they'd discover that the previous team sent to find help was dead and had been for some time.

13 hours ago, SimoneS said:

It was the same Hickey in the flashback, but he knew nothing about sailing. I wouldn't be surprised if he is an imposter who killed the real Hickey.

I think it was a different man in the first flashback at the beginning of the episode.

[slothgirl]

the locker or whatever it was...

I also thought it said EC, but then figured, oh it must be FC for Francis Crozier. Then on re-watch it definitely said E not F... I think.. they made a point of showing it to us, but gave us almost no time to read it.

Seems risky for fake Hickey to use his real initials. (If that's even what that lid was about) Of course, he wouldn't have expected to be on the ship for years on end for anyone to notice.

If these are the initials of the crew members, shouldn't that ship have other initials already on them and x-ed out or something? It wasn't the Terror's maiden voyage.

I put the following in spoiler mode because it's pretty radical speculation. Didn't know what the protocol is for that:

Spoiler

This only occurred to me while I was writing this post: It seems unnecessary on the part of the writers for fake Hickey's initials to be so close to Crozier's.. I'm now terribly afraid that he might be Crozier's son that dear Francis doesn't know he has. I now want to go back and watch the whole thing again just to look for clues to that.

Edited May 1, 2018 by slothgirl

[Lamima]

9 minutes ago, slothgirl said:

the locker or whatever it was...

I also thought it said EC, but then figured, oh it must be FC for Francis Crozier. Then on re-watch it definitely said E not F... I think.. they made a point of showing it to us, but gave us almost no time to read it.

Seems risky for fake Hickey to use his real initials. Of course, he wouldn't have expected to be on the ship for years on end for anyone to notice.

If these are the initials of the crew members, shouldn't that ship have other initials already on them and x-ed out or something? It wasn't the Terror's maiden voyage.

I put the following in spolier mode because it's pretty radical speculation. Didn't know what the protocol is for that:

  Hide contents

It seems unnecessary on the part of the writers for fake Hickey's initials to be so close to Crozier's.. I'm now terribly afraid that he might be Crozier's son that dear Francis doesn't know he has. 

 

I was wondering that too. Or it could be the voyage that the other guy mentioned....where they dragged the Terror back...that Crozier had a relative on that voyage and he died?? I tend to think it's more related to Hickey though since he was shown at that locker in the flashback at the end.

Edit to add....the more I think about it, i think your hidden theory is right. Can't really point out other little hints because then I will be spoiling it. Has to do with that fixing the toilet convo and the whipping.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Lamima

[SimoneS]

On 5/1/2018 at 9:21 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

Crozier appears to be a good leader, despite the alcoholism. But I disagree with his decision to keep secrets from the men for their own good. Not telling the men about the tainted food and dead rescue party gives opportunity for mistrust and mutiny by people like Hickey. There is no way to keep a secret in this group of people. 
And it always seems that the people who believe they are in the right to keep such secrets are also acknowledging they consider themselves to be more rational, better suited,  better educated, ... basically 'better' than the uniformed people. 

 

This isn't about "people who believe they are in the right." This is how the military works/has always worked and how Francis and his officers were trained by the British navy. They decide what the men should know on a need to know basis. Under these dire and desperate circumstances, Francis has naturally fallen back on that training which actually would have saved them if Hickey wasn't a murderous sociopath. They survived long enough to find the Inuit because of Francis. As Irving joyously exclaimed when he saw the Inuit, "the Captain was right!" If the men abandon their officers and discipline under this horrific situation in favor of Hickey's lies and schemes, then they get what they deserve.

Edited May 2, 2018 by SimoneS

[SoSueMe]

38 minutes ago, slothgirl said:

the locker or whatever it was...

I also thought it said EC, but then figured, oh it must be FC for Francis Crozier. Then on re-watch it definitely said E not F... I think.. they made a point of showing it to us, but gave us almost no time to read it.

Seems risky for fake Hickey to use his real initials. (If that's even what that lid was about) Of course, he wouldn't have expected to be on the ship for years on end for anyone to notice.

If these are the initials of the crew members, shouldn't that ship have other initials already on them and x-ed out or something? It wasn't the Terror's maiden voyage.

I put the following in spoiler mode because it's pretty radical speculation. Didn't know what the protocol is for that:

  Hide contents

This only occurred to me while I was writing this post: It seems unnecessary on the part of the writers for fake Hickey's initials to be so close to Crozier's.. I'm now terribly afraid that he might be Crozier's son that dear Francis doesn't know he has. I now want to go back and watch the whole thing again just to look for clues to that.

This occurred to me:

Spoiler

Both Crozier and Hickey came from Ireland, right?

[iMonrey]

Question: why do they pronounce the word lieutenant "lef-tennant?" Is it a British thing? 

[proserpina65]

48 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Question: why do they pronounce the word lieutenant "lef-tennant?" Is it a British thing? 

Yep.

[slothgirl]

I found this interview with the actor who plays Hickey. I don't believe anything he says spoils as long as you have viewed through this latest episode. In fact, it seems designed to be released only after this ep aired. But read at your own risk. It does give fabulous insight into how the actor is approaching the character.

http://www.amc.com/shows/the-terror/talk/2018/04/the-terror-qa-adam-nagaitis-cornelius-hickey

I also found several reviews that confirm for me that Hickey in the 1st flashback was "obviously" a different person, so I don't think we are supposed to be in doubt that Hickey is an impostor.

[Earlwoode]

20 hours ago, maystone said:

I'm watching the second showing, and it does clear up the confusion I had about Hickey's enlistment. I missed some of the dialogue, so I thought it was showing Hickey signing on for his first voyage and then jumping ahead about 10-15 years to his current enlistment. Because really, original Hickey was in his teens, but a month later a full-grown man with a sporty beard and mustache shows up. So yeah, imposter. But up until Hickey killed his search team, I thought he was conspiring with some others to desert out of pure self-interest. Now he seems to me to be dangerously depraved. Still wicked smart though - taking his outer clothes off so he doesn't get blood all over them. I wonder if he'll blame the murders on the Inuit or Tuunbaq or if he'll just report back that they disappeared. Crozier's onto him - at least there's that.

Poor Jacko is still being carted around by Mr. Goodsir. Poor Neptune is now dinner. I'm not holding out much hope for the poor ship's cat; not many rats running around the ship I'm guessing. At least all of the animal deaths were off screen, which sounds like a horrid thing to say when so many human characters are suffering and dying, but they signed up for the trip. The animals, not so much.

Like the rest of you, I'm hoping like mad that Goodsir survives this somehow, if Lady Silence vouches for him with Tuunbaq. Assuming she isn't on the run from him herself, of course. I think she may be with them to try to protect them, as well as having maybe a better chance of surviving with a group than on her own. Maybe? Yeah, I know, depends on who's in the group.

I love that James has come to respect and like Francis. I'm enjoying the hell out of Jared Harris and Tobias Menzies. There should be a slew of Emmy noms for this series, and for those two actors in particular. And, well, actually all of them. There's not a single actor who isn't top-notch.

Lol, once again I had to read the recaps to understand the flashbacks.  I thought the first guy didn't look too much like Hickey but thought it was just because he was suppposed to be younger.  So some reviewers said Hickey was hunched over the first guy he killed and was eating him?  Huh?  I didn't see that at all.  In fact, I didn't even see him slashing Irving.  I thought he'd put his hand over his mouth and suffocated him.  He looked totally crazy while he did it so I wonder if the lead poisoning is getting to him too?  Is that why he was half naked or,  was it so as not to get blood all over him?  But damn the man is good at gathering intelligence:  he knew about the poisoned cans and knew about the dead first party. 

I am really disappointed at how small Tobias Menzies' role is in this show.  He was the reason I started watching this but his part seems to be smaller and smaller.  He doesn't really do very much - says  a few lines and stands around with Crozier.  What a waste of a good actor.  That said, Adam Nagaitis is absolutely fascinating to watch.  Never heard of this guy or seen him in anything but he is doing a damn fine job.

Oh and another reviewer said Lady Silence and the Tuunbaq where in this episode in one shot.  Did I miss that?  When?

[Dowel Jones]

36 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

In fact, I didn't even see him slashing Irving. 

When he first turned on Irving, he made a series of rapid stabbing motions, hitting him in the chest.  The knife is barely visible. As Irving went down to the snow, he put his hand over Irving's mouth and held it there.

[Crone]

So I was rewatching the scene where Crozier and Hickey have a drink together and talk about the hassle of being Irish in the English Navy. Crozier knows Hickey is Irish from the ship’s manifest and wonders why he doesn’t have an Irish accent. Hickey says it’s because he grew up in England. Yeah, right- we know now it’s because he’s not Hickey at all! 

[Sighed I]

As if I couldn't hate Hickey even more, I just saw a clip from next week's episode. I'm going to put a spoiler alert because it's a significant portion of a scene, which makes it slightly different than the usual previews at the end of each episode:

Spoiler

https://winteriscoming.net/2018/04/30/amcs-the-terror-horrible-from-supper/
That bastard blamed the Inuit for the murders he committed and those poor people paid the price! Now he's undermining the men's confidence in Crozier that much more, as the captain had assured them they were a good people who would help them. Even worse, the Leftenants ;)--none of whom has previous experience with these people (Lady Silence excepted)--are all fired up to make war because of their prejudice and ignorance of the Inuit.

Crozier needs to stop putting Hickey on these missions! He's completely untrustworthy and he knows it. Not that it will stop our resident psychopath from scheming. Grrr.

I know it's awful to say, but I want Hickey to die an agonizing death, with as much pain as possible. Tuunbaq tearing him limb from limb and leaving him to bleed out would be a good start.

Edited to add: Thanks to those who speculated about what the initials on the locker mean. I missed that was imposter Hickey's locker! I will reply to those points later when I'm not working. ;)

Edited May 2, 2018 by Sighed I

[slothgirl]

42 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

When he first turned on Irving, he made a series of rapid stabbing motions, hitting him in the chest.  The knife is barely visible. As Irving went down to the snow, he put his hand over Irving's mouth and held it there.

yes... and my impression was that it was to keep him from crying out more than to suffocate him

[Starchild]

So I don't think the first party cannibalized each other, they were only 18 miles away from the ships. Whatever happened, they were dead within a day or two of leaving.

[zobot81]

Lol. I still love Hickey! Maybe it's because the actor portraying him (who I cannot say enough positive things about) is magically transforming a character who I should organically be repulsed by, and giving me something interesting to consider about the human condition. Again. He's the right man for the situation.

Bottom line: Hickey is CORRECT. They will not make it out of there, not honorably. They won't even make it out of there as good men. Which is the truth that I've been looking for in an apocalypse plot. It doesn't make me feel warm inside, but at least someone has the stones to finally say what no one seems prepared to say, when survival against all odds is the only path forward: it's a terrible, violent, inhuman business.  And these show-runners don't mind yanking that thread, while they spin other yarns.

(P.S. I don't think anyone believes that Hickey is a hero in our everyday world...that would be pretty basic...)

[maystone]

46 minutes ago, Starchild said:

So I don't think the first party cannibalized each other, they were only 18 miles away from the ships. Whatever happened, they were dead within a day or two of leaving.

Yeah, I was coming back to say that, too. There were only eight men in that party; to be honest I didn't count the number of heads, but it seemed to be at least six. I thought I saw the decapitated bodies nearby, also.

I wonder if anything is going to be made of the fact that the Inuit leader now has Irving's spyglass? I think Hickey left the hilltop before Irving handed it over, so he wouldn't realize it was missing from Iriving's effects.

Regardless of what the initials EC signify, I was touched by the fact that Francis went back to close the lid before he left. Everything ship shape, eh. I get that, I really do. And the way he ran his hand along the boards before climbing up on deck. Jared packed a lot into such small moments.

1 hour ago, Crone said:

So I was rewatching the scene where Crozier and Hickey have a drink together and talk about the hassle of being Irish in the English Navy. Crozier knows Hickey is Irish from the ship’s manifest and wonders why he doesn’t have an Irish accent. Hickey says it’s because he grew up in England. Yeah, right- we know now it’s because he’s not Hickey at all! 

Oh, good catch, Crone. I completely forgot about that scene. Now I wonder what other tells there are in past episodes.

[Sighed I]

2 minutes ago, maystone said:

Oh, good catch, Crone. I completely forgot about that scene. Now I wonder what other tells there are in past episodes.

If you have the time, I highly recommend a rewatch of the series from beginning to end. There are tons of clues, starting with the first episode.

[slothgirl]

21 minutes ago, maystone said:

Yeah, I was coming back to say that, too. There were only eight men in that party; to be honest I didn't count the number of heads, but it seemed to be at least six. I thought I saw the decapitated bodies nearby, also.

Only 8? Why did I think it was a much larger group? For some reason, the number 50 stuck in my head... where did I get that? Was there some other thing about 50 of the crew? They were expected to go HUNDREDS of miles and then come back with help. Eight seems insufficient because they'd pretty much all have to be pulling the sledge all the time. You'd want enough people to spell each other off and also take turns at watch.

[thuganomics85]

Man, forgot about monstrous polar bear: Hickey is the true terror of this show!  Dude has totally gone off the deep end, and I don't think anyone his safe: even the ones he is currently sweet talking and "aligning" with.  That was a brutal ending to say the least.  And it seems like he might not even be the real Hickey either.  I can at least take solace that Francis is suspicious that something is going down, but I have a feeling major damage will be caused no matter what.

Equally brutal was the other guy who was driven crazed to the point that they pretty much had to put him down.  And then poor Goodsir pretty much had a panic attack over it.  At least Lady Silence was able to provide him some comfort, but everyone is getting put through the ringer here.

But, hey, Jopson got promoted!  Yay, Jopson!  Enjoy it while you can, buddy, because I'm pretty everyone here is going to get killed in the worst way possible!

I do like that Francis and Fitzjames seem to have become a pretty good team now, despite pretty much hating each other early on.

While I understand his reasons, I suspect that Francis keeping secrets from his men will end up backfiring big time.  Even though I do think if he was more open, there would probably be those who panic and make things worse.

Seriously, I am so close to actually considering buy this silly AMC Premiere thing, because I want to see how this ends already.  Easily one of the most compelling and riveting shows this season. 

[Sighed I]

1 hour ago, slothgirl said:

Only 8? Why did I think it was a much larger group? For some reason, the number 50 stuck in my head... where did I get that? Was there some other thing about 50 of the crew? They were expected to go HUNDREDS of miles and then come back with help. Eight seems insufficient because they'd pretty much all have to be pulling the sledge all the time. You'd want enough people to spell each other off and also take turns at watch.

There were two different groups of men referenced this episode. Eight were in the rescue party that left the previous year. They only got 18 miles because Tuunbaq (in all likelihood) ambushed them. Of course Hickey and the other Mutineers will blame the Inuit, and then blame Crozier as an "Eski Lover" or some other BS. But I digress ;).

You may be right there might not have been enough men in the rescue party; on the other hand, the more men they have, the more mouths to feed. Since they are in the Arctic, Crozier may have figured eight men might have had a better chance of feeding themselves sustainably when the provisions run out than twice that many. He knows the Inuit live in small groups for that very reason. In any case, given their fate, I guess it's a good thing he didn't send any more of them out.

Lt. Little scouted ahead with 50 men, then Crozier's group met up with them, so that's where the 50 comes from.

[Sighed I]

On 5/1/2018 at 1:21 AM, slothgirl said:

But Hickey is taking far too much pleasure in planting his seeds of discontent and mutiny. He was going beyond just trying to line up potential fall back options when things go off the rails... he WANTS them things to become desperate. That was obvious to me even before he started helping disaster along by killing people. That guy who Hickey asked to make him his 2nd when the mutiny comes better watch his back.

 

Quote

Hickey doesn't care about saving them all. He's deranged. He only uses people, and only those who serve his purpose will be on his list to save and only until his purpose for them is served. He will eat every one of them alive (literally and figuratively) if it guarantees his survival. If anyone else does survive with him long enough for rescue to be in sight, he will kill them at the last minute to preserve his secrets.

I completely agree. He's only gathering this group of men because they will help keep him alive, and when they are no longer useful or become a threat, he will dispense with them. He would absolutely kill any and all of them. I also agree if more than one man made it to the end, "Hickey" would do whatever it takes to be the sole survivor.

On 5/1/2018 at 2:09 AM, Hazel55 said:

First, despite the fact that Hickey is clearly and unambiguously evil, I personally think that the writers characterization of him has been subtle and masterful. Particularly interesting is the "slow burn" regarding his true moral character. From the beginning, the writers have been dropping subtle hints that something is "off" with the guy; yet (at least initially), there was also a good deal of ambiguity about his true feelings and motives. 

IMO, the slow reveal of his corrupted moral character has been fascinating to watch, and has made for a very nuanced character. It is interesting to think that the way I viewed him in the beginning (a little bit smug, superior, and self serving, but basically a decent guy) is the way he still appears to many of the crew members, who lack our "insider knowledge" about his behind the scenes activities.

Also, the fact that there's been so much heated argument (and discussion) about this character thus far indicates (to my mind) that he's made quite an impression. If he were truly one dimensional, I doubt he'd provoke such strong reactions, in both his detractors and his defenders. Last weeks thread was hijacked by an intense "is Hickey good or bad" argument. More than half of the posters this week have taken space to specifically vent their anger at the character. These things indicate he's having quite an effect on the shows viewers, which I doubt would be the case if he were one dimensional.

As for the actor, I think he's doing a fantastic job in portraying him, simply fantastic. There may not be much subtlety in his performance at this point, but I'd argue that there's little subtlety in Hickey's characterization at this point either. 

 

I agree. A character who causes this much uproar and discussion must be doing something right. ;)

RE: the subtlety (or lack thereof) of Hickey's character and the actor's portrayal, I believe his brazenness at this time is a deliberate choice and agree this is part of the character's evolution. From the beginning, we see something's off about him, but it's ambiguous at first. As their situation grows more and more dire, the masks they wear in normal, everyday life slip away, exposing the core of who they really are. He's holding onto one mask tightly enough to gather his minions, but the easier it gets for him to kill, the harder it will be, I think, to conceal his true nature.

I agree with slothgirl there's a bit of mustache twirling going on time and again, but I find it part of his charm (I mean that in a generic sense, because he damn sure isn't charming now!!). Adam does it so well, he can get away with it, and totally fits who Hickey is.

19 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I am enjoying this show so much, but sometimes my stomach clenches as the men's futures become bleaker. Like Irving, I almost jumped for joy when they saw the Inuit, only for Hickey turn it into brutal defeat. I dread losing the wonderful Jopson (and the other leftenants), Goodsir, James, Francis, and Blanky. I don't know if I can bear watching them die under these horrendous circumstances caused by John's incompetence and Hickey's schemes.

 

Maybe, but until I see something different, I see Hickey as a calculating sociopath rather than deranged. 

I feel the same way. The first half of the story filled me with dread. Now that shit's getting real I get knots in my stomach. I love this show and its characters and I can't stand the thought of losing them all. This is exactly what I feared would happen if I watched this program, and why I hesitated to do so in the first place. But it's so good and I'm so invested I have to see it through. By "forcing" myself to watch it all, in a way it feels like I'm honoring these (fictional and real life) men's lives and sacrifices. The thought of going through all that suffering and pain, only to be forgotten, their stories and struggles lost to time and the wind...it's incredibly tragic. They deserve to be remembered, even if it's painful to see.

18 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

I stay up late just to watch this series each week - it's riveting. The great acting continues...I'm going to stalk all of Jared Harris' work.

However I was confused about Hickey's purpose in talking about the dog as meat. Given that the crew knows hunting is difficult, was he hinting that he and his gang resort to cannibalism in order to survive?

I wonder how often mutiny was a factor in these conditions. The show seems to be telling us that the captain is on to some of the crew's dangerous intentions. Has previous experience taught him to watch for the signals?

RE: Jared Harris, me too. I'm going to make a point of checking out a lot more of his work.

Hickey was trying to bribe Lt. Hodgson with the dog meat by saying, he, Hodgson and Tozer could divide the meat amongst themselves and eat "well" for days as opposed to dividing it among 100 men. There's also the matter of Crozier finding out Hickey the liar butchered his dog; this way, he keeps it concealed. Anyway, he was saying even if they successfully hunted game, it won't be enough to sustain them all. Better to thin out the human herd now so there's more for them later. I don't think he was referring to cannibalism here; it's about eliminating the competition, other mouths to feed.

Yes, I believe Crozier sees the signs of mutiny thanks to prior experience. He's in a tough situation; whatever choices he makes will be scrutinized by the crew. He has to handle things strategically because he knows they're sitting on a powder keg and if it goes off, anything and everything will happen and he may not be able keep anyone alive.

18 hours ago, Lamima said:

looks like it was a locker and the only one open. Bet it's imposter Hickey's and his real initials. His is open and not closed like the others to show another act of not doing what he's supposed to and not doing what everyone else did...closed their lockers??????????

 

 

17 hours ago, Lamima said:

It's a locker and it does look to be imposter Hickey's as at the end Irving is there to assign it to him and he says he's trying everything new when Irving says 'are you trying something new?'.

 

15 hours ago, slothgirl said:

the locker or whatever it was...

I also thought it said EC, but then figured, oh it must be FC for Francis Crozier. Then on re-watch it definitely said E not F... I think.. they made a point of showing it to us, but gave us almost no time to read it.

Seems risky for fake Hickey to use his real initials. (If that's even what that lid was about) Of course, he wouldn't have expected to be on the ship for years on end for anyone to notice.

If these are the initials of the crew members, shouldn't that ship have other initials already on them and x-ed out or something? It wasn't the Terror's maiden voyage.

I put the following in spoiler mode because it's pretty radical speculation. Didn't know what the protocol is for that:

  Reveal hidden contents

This only occurred to me while I was writing this post: It seems unnecessary on the part of the writers for fake Hickey's initials to be so close to Crozier's.. I'm now terribly afraid that he might be Crozier's son that dear Francis doesn't know he has. I now want to go back and watch the whole thing again just to look for clues to that.

 

I missed that was "Hickey"'s locker. I wonder if Crozier knows it's his? I agree it could be a tell, the fact his was the only one left open. It's another hint of his lack of discipline, his non-militaristic thinking. I don't think it would have occurred to any of the other men not to close the lid to their lockers; they're Navy men, and stuff like that has to be second nature.

It does seem a bit foolhardy of Hickey if EC are his real initials. I have to admit, though, I'd rather it be arrogant recklessness on his part than him being

Spoiler

the son Crozier never knew he had.

I suspect the former is more likely than the latter. At least I hope it is!

15 hours ago, SimoneS said:

This isn't about "people who believe they are in the right." This is how the military works/has always worked and how Francis and his officers were trained by the British navy. They decide what the men should know on a need to know basis. Under these dire and desperate circumstances, Francis has naturally fallen back on that training which actually would have saved them if Hickey wasn't a murderous sociopath. They survived long enough to find the Inuit because of Francis. As Irving joyously exclaimed when he saw the Inuit, "the Captain was right!" If the men abandon their officers and disciplinary under this horrific situation in favor of Hickey's lies and schemes, then they get what they deserve.

 

I totally agree. In the state they're in, if Crozier told them everything all hell would break loose. He's holding back things for a reason, and I believe for the greater good. He already knows he will lose men on this journey from the elements alone. They need hope if any of them are to have any chance of survival. It's like Blanky said. Survival is all about what goes on upstairs. He may choose to be more candid later, but for now, telling the full truth, especially before they secure another food source, would be a disaster.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Sighed I

[Captanne]

Liking Hickey because the actor is doing such a great job doesn't follow.  If the actor is doing a great job with a two dimensional villain, the audience should recognize the villainy and "hate" him.  That is the point of making him two dimensional.

I have not been as impressed with the actor playing Hickey as others and still don't see it.

I'm disappointed the role is so boringly Eeee-vil (mustache twirling mandatory), but the actor is not giving me much either way.  His hopping around after the murder and stripping in the (what must be) cold was an interesting choice.

[Earlwoode]

10 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

hen he first turned on Irving, he made a series of rapid stabbing motions, hitting him in the chest.  The knife is barely visible. As Irving went down to the snow, he put his hand over Irving's mouth and held it there.

Ok I guess I missed the knife and the stabbing motions.  It wasn’t at all clear he’d stabbed him. But why would he stop him from crying out when there was no one else around?  The Eskimo group seemed to be pretty far away.

 

So I was rewatching the scene where Crozier and Hickey have a drink together and talk about the hassle of being Irish in the English Navy. Crozier knows Hickey is Irish from the ship’s manifest and wonders why he doesn’t have an Irish accent. Hickey says it’s because he grew up in England. Yeah, right- we know now it’s because he’s not Hickey at all

The Hickey being an impostor thing I think is explaimed in the Adam Naigatis interview.  He says Hickey was a real person with living descendents so they didn’t want to turn him into a villain.  Thus, the device of making him an impostor.  I wonder now if they will ever explain why he took the real Hickey’s place?  Probably not.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Earlwoode

[zobot81]

I should rephrase, since this seems to have turned into a conversation about who "likes" Hickey, and who thinks he's "evil".  I certainly don't "love" a cold-blooded murderer.  But I am enjoying the heck out of the character, as far as how he sheds light on the larger plots and themes of the show.   I'm all about them themes, you guys! And I really think Hickey is an important piece of The Terror's narrative puzzle. 

Clearly, Hickey turns a VERY dark corner in this episode.  At least there was some attempt to qualify it, when he meets with a few of the other men to discuss the dire nature of their situation -- which is, in fact, what it is.  They are being poisoned and lied to by the leadership.  And he rightly points out that they better get ready to starve to death, if they don't find fresh meat soon.  So, what are there options? They can march on, starving, poisoned, without a fresh food-source abundant enough to save them all.  They can carry on pretending that the captain's plan is sound.  Or....

Look, there are few things that make killing a righteous act.  Perhaps consider what those things are, if you will.  Doesn't the doctor essentially commit mass murder at the carnival?  Sure, he sacrifices himself.  Another way to look at it, is that he gives up on trying to live.  Which impulse do you admire more?  I'm not necessarily ready to answer that question, but it doesn't stop me from asking myself the tough question.

I guess I do feel a bit strange for seeing Hickey as something other than a clear-cut monster.   And I'm not asking anyone to rejigger their moral compass.  I am really enjoying this show and this conversation a lot...I hope no one thinks I'm as sketchy as Hickey, just because I find him compelling. Yikes!