S07.E14: The Girl in the Tower

[formerlyfreedom]

Rogers works to prove Tilly’s innocence in the case of the Blind Baker’s death, while Ivy attempts to make amends with Anastasia, and Samdi makes a revealing confession to Roni. Meanwhile, in a faraway realm, Alice forms an unbreakable bond.

 

[Lady Calypso]

Well, that was certainly a stronger episode this season for me. Did it have its issues? Of course; this is OUAT, and specifically season 7 OUAT. There's always going to be issues. But did I enjoy it more than most of these episodes? Of course.

Please do not tell me they're telegraphing Drizella's death. Her scene with Henry was really great, but it felt like a farewell scene. Speaking of Henry, they....really have no idea what to do with him, do they? His line about not having anything to do is very apt for his story this season. If he's not flirting with Jacinda or holding baby Lucy in the flashbacks, he literally is useless. He could have been taken out of Rogers and Tilly's story, and zero needed to be changed. I guess him being ineffectual in a scene is better than him taking away from a scene. 

God, I actually liked Alice and Robin's relationship. I do see them trying to replicate some of Snow/Charming's first meeting (and then Alice blowing out the candles was a total Emma Swan thing they were taking from), which annoyed, but both actresses had some pretty great chemistry. They also had some pretty cute moments. Unlike the other two romances developing in this half season, Alice and Robin weren't just hostile toward each other. I could see why both were wary of the other, and they seemed more friendly toward each other at times. It was really nice.

I was wondering where Robin was for the present day. For a bit, I was wondering if Robin managed to get back to Storybrooke before the HH curse. But nope, she was 'conveniently' travelling in Tibet. Yeah, season 1 brought characters into the story way better than here. And yeah, they were too on the nose with the Robin Hood and Alice in Wonderland books. 

The Regina/Facilier/Lucy/Zelena stuff? Eh, it was ok, albeit more harmless than anything. 

[ParadoxLost]

Hey! It's Your Birthday! You've got magic. Its your Birthday. Your wishes, on your Birthday. They come true. 'Cause its your Birthday.

Even if your wish is a self driving replica of Emma's VW bug that you saw a picture of on this thing called a smartphone one time.

Trying really hard to deliver the explanation of the troll and VM bug in Hyperion Heights.  Too hard.  It came off like a box they needed to check.  Add to that, why weren't other landmarks transferred?  I guess that creatures and objects created by magic and then turned to stone are alive enough to be transported to HH when your random building or tree or rock is not.

Edited March 24, 2018 by ParadoxLost

[Shanna Marie]

They really do have a tiny bag of tricks, don't they? They hardly seem able to write a romantic relationship that doesn't start with cute, snarky nicknames (aside from Emma and Hook, but I think they were written by the writing elves, not the staff). "Charming" worked because it was a way of working in the way the Disney character has been referred to. But since then, they seem to think that's a key element of a relationship. You know what might have been touching and meaningful when contrasted with the present, where Tilly feels invisible? Having Robin use her actual name. If she'd called out "Alice" instead of "Tower Girl," that would have meant someone saw Alice, that she existed and mattered, and that would have created a lot of emotion and explained their bond.

Given that Gothel was Alice's mother and there was magic around her birth, I wonder if Alice has latent magical powers. It does look like she might end up being the Guardian.

They seem to be working really hard to avoid all mention of the characters in Storybrooke and to avoid giving us an update on what's going on with her. Emma got referred to as "the sheriff." No mention of Hook or their child. Would Alice even know why her father is referred to as "Nook"? Does she know about the other Hook?

The Tilly and Rogers stuff was quite touching, and it's nice that the vibe of their relationship really does come across as father/daughter even though the actors aren't that far apart in age -- she probably is around the age who would typically be cast as a love interest for someone his age in Hollywood.

Lucy didn't get her stealth/operation genes from her father. Even 10-year-old Henry was better at sneaking around than that. If you're using your phone as a walkie talkie replacement and keeping it on silent, at least keep it in your pocket so you can get alerts. And don't remove any articles of clothing while you're breaking and entering, in case you have to leave in a hurry.

[Writing Wrongs]

Why does Alice/Tilly talk so weird? 

How do smartphones work in the Enchanted Forest?

This show is so boring now.

[ParadoxLost]

8 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

They seem to be working really hard to avoid all mention of the characters in Storybrooke and to avoid giving us an update on what's going on with her. Emma got referred to as "the sheriff." No mention of Hook or their child. Would Alice even know why her father is referred to as "Nook"? Does she know about the other Hook?

I got completely lost on how she connected the dots to call Robin "Nobin".  It seemed a bit too inside joke re: new Robin Hood that made no organic sense and was just there because A&E think Nook and Nobin are so clever.

3 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

Why does Alice/Tilly talk so weird? 

I'm guessing its the actress deciding to portray someone who has been locked up and isolated too long and gone a little crazy with it.

8 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

How do smartphones work in the Enchanted Forest?

During that scene I completely checked out as I was rationalizing that you didn't need a signal to look at pictures.

Now I realize that we have to add infinite smartphone battery life to infinite gas tank.

[Shanna Marie]

5 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

During that scene I completely checked out as I was rationalizing that you didn't need a signal to look at pictures.

Now I realize that we have to add infinite smartphone battery life to infinite gas tank.

We already had smartphone battery life on the list, since Henry had a functioning smartphone with a nifty portal notification app in the season premiere. I would say that Zelena and Robyn came prepared with solar chargers, but we've had no indication that they went back to Storybrooke to say goodbye and pack up their things. So whatever.

6 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I got completely lost on how she connected the dots to call Robin "Nobin".  It seemed a bit too inside joke re: new Robin Hood that made no organic sense and was just there because A&E think Nook and Nobin are so clever.

Yeah, for one thing, is there a Robin Hood in that world for the name to have any kind of meaning to Alice? For another, there was no reason for Alice to know about Robin being "new Robin." Also, I kept cringing when Robin talked about her father, given that she was conceived because he was raped. So, did Zelena bring Robyn up talking to her about her father's legacy? Or was Auntie Regina the one messing with her head?

At least we finally had a character realizing that doing something for the glory/name/legacy was a stupid reason to do something.

It took me a while in the opening for me to be certain that the Alice they showed in the tower was the same person as adult Alice. She looked totally different with her hair that way and dressed like cartoon movie Alice. See, they can show characters as being different ages when they try.

[ParadoxLost]

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It took me a while in the opening for me to be certain that the Alice they showed in the tower was the same person as adult Alice. She looked totally different with her hair that way and dressed like cartoon movie Alice. See, they can show characters as being different ages when they try.

It took me way too long to figure out that it was Robyn that saved Tilly from the car at the end.  I only realized it before the Mom/daughter reunion scene because current and flashback must always contain the same characters.  I think it took me so long because I found Robyn so grating and her cursed personality not so terrible.

In other news, I really hate Roni's wardrobe.  But I'll spare you the Rumple's all blue jean ensemble rant about it.  In protest of Roni's bohemian earth mother bullshit ensemble, I decided to watch clips of Lady and the Tramp on youtube when she mentioned that she like chowder over her usual pizza at Bella Notte.  So I'm barely aware that she decided it was a brilliant idea to have her, not even a teenager, granddaughter search her super villain boyfriends place.. 

[KingOfHearts]

I watched the ending scene on YouTube, can't watch the full episode yet.

Tilly left her coffee maker on, and that's really bothering me.

[MaiLuna]

18 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

 

Tilly left her coffee maker on, and that's really bothering me.

Please don't let it be another crock-pot situation! 

 

Jokes aside, this was one of the best episodes in a while. Alice/Tilly is so endearing, and even if they had Alice/Robin have an adventure on their first day, they didn't end up proclaiming their love after 24 hours, which is an improvement for this show. 

[Rumsy4]

39 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I watched the ending scene on YouTube, can't watch the full episode yet.

Tilly left her coffee maker on, and that's really bothering me.

I too was bothered by it (I’m a bit OCD), but she turned the main switch off before leaving. So, it’s all good. 

I haven’t been able to watch the episode fully either. I’ll catch up tomorrow. But Robyn’s annoying.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Senna]

In a possible first (?) for this season, I liked this episode and thought Alice and Robyn were cute together.  Even though the flashback was pretty similar in some ways to the one with Tiana and Naveen, the character interactions and chemistry felt so much more natural and like something that could actually lead to friendship and eventually romance.  (I'm also glad that we didn't get a forced true love's kiss in the first 24 hours, unlike certain other pairings ...)  It wasn't perfect by a long shot (here's my still fully charged cell phone, yeah, okay ... hello, random VW bug, suuure ... ), but ... my expectations for this show have sunk through the floor, and for a short period, I was actually enjoying watching.

I also really liked the Rogers and Tilly scenes and likewise thought their chemistry felt sweet and natural, without the inappropriate vibes Roni and Henry have.

The Lucy-on-mission-impossible stuff was super dumb, but at least it didn't take up too many minutes.

[Camera One]

They did a really good job making Alice look younger in the first flashback in the Tower.  It was really convincing and it was sort of neat with the Alice in Wonderland blue dress and the tea party.  I like Alice, but I had to groan when she pulled out that cupcake with a single candle.  Fine, it wasn't as offensive as when Regina and Zelena had one, but still.  

I spent much of the episode wondering how a troll could get her out of a Tower that she was trapped in by magic, but (spoiler alert), then they explained at the end that Alice magicked the troll into existence because she wished to escape.  But Gothel herself couldn't magick herself out?  

Overall, I liked this episode more because the actress who played Alice/Tilly was really good and it helped that I actually cared about her.

But Robyn, not so much.  Call me devoid of romantic feeling but the flashback Robyn totally grated.  I didn't like the Sneak Peek of her pointing an arrow at Alice's head, but it got worse later when she proclaimed killing the troll was her "one chance at honor" even after Alice told her that the troll was her friend and had saved her.  Keeping Alice locked up so she could go for honor was unforgivable.  If Alice hadn't interrupted, she would have killed the troll with her never-miss arrow.  I was rolling my eyes when Alice was looking so surprised and touched that Robyn was defending her to the mob of men.  

Nobin was a cute nickname.  Tower Girl, not so much.  That was her source of pain and Robyn later seemed to understand that, yet she kept calling Alice that.  It was as idiotic as the nickname Kansas right after Dorothy said how much she hated that place.

Robyn seemed like such a brat.  "In Storybrooke, I was never alone... it was insufferably quaint.  I felt so trapped".  Well, boo hoo for you.  I think they were trying to parallel the Aladdin/Jasmine conversation where they both felt that they were trapped.    It didn't endear me to her when she related her story of stealing the Yellow Bug from the nameless "Sheriff".

Just think, the Bug could have been our only cameo of "Emma" this season.  I can imagine A&E laughing when they came up with the scene where the Troll ALMOST smashes and destroys Emma's car.  Got ya, fans.

Someone help me with the timeline.  I was confused why the Tower was still intact in this episode.  I thought it was already destroyed when Regina and Whook first arrived.  Didn't Regina teach Drizella magic in its ruins?  

The present-day storyline was fun, only because it featured Tilly and Rogers.  The "scavenger hunt" to figure out her last 24 hours was sort of fun, but so poorly executed.  You'd think there would be more cops out and about looking for Tilly.  Why wouldn't the grocery store people report her?  You'd think she would be all over the news.   Speaking of which, did someone mind-wipe the grocery people?  I kept expecting Gothel to pop up at any moment.

I had to laugh when one of the "clues" was the powdered sugar all over Tilly's sleeves.  What a tease, though.  Thought you were going to see Tiana?  Bwahahahahaha, not so fast.  She's not allowed to have screentime just yet, folks.  What happened with that, anyway?  Tiana couldn't give Tilly an alibi or what?  

So what's left.  There's not much to say about sending a ten year old into a psycho's apartment.  Why would she take off her hat?  Why would Facilier come in and go upstairs, leaving the door wide open?  I feel zero chemistry between Regina and Facilier so the whole "He wants the Dagger and I still have feelings for him" falls flat.

Instead of that dumb subplot, we should have seen Drizella working to bring down Gothel.  Why only give her one scene?

Edited March 24, 2018 by Camera One

[greekmom]

I didn't understand why Zelena and Regina won't wake Robin up. I mean it's not like she is cursed (i.e. if you see the other person, they die).

Seriously, the only people that need to be under that are Nook, Alice, Jancinda and Henry.

[Rumsy4]

I really liked this episode. It was quite satisfying. It had a beginning middle and end both in the flashback and present day stuff for Alice/Tilly. The Alice actress is really good--I actually teared up a couple of times. I loved all the Tilly-Rogers scenes in Hyperion Heights. Their interactions were natural and sweet, without being strangely intense or giving off inappropriate vibes. I was starting to think those two would never have more than a few moments together until the curse broke, but I was touched and beyond happy when Rogers invited Tilly to come stay with him. And yeah--that was one of my teary moments. asdfls,flkds

Robyn is a brat, and I can't say I'm sold on the "epic" romance. However, it was way more believable than Tiana/Naveen or Red/Dorothy, and miles better than Murderella/Henry. It helped that the Tilly-Robyn actresses weren't overdoing any of the antagonism, and that their characters are both young enough to explain some of the immaturity, and that they didn't immediately fall in insta-love. 

I actually liked the twist that Alice had freed herself from the Tower. Her birthday tea party was cute, but the single candle on a cupcake irked. How did she feed and clothe herself all those years? Did WHook stop by to drop off supplies every week? Did she magic herself everything she needed?

The writers keep relying on viewer nostalgia to evoke feelings (the birthday cupcake, the antagonistic so-called meet-cutes, the cutsey nicknames, the "bug", etc.). And no--the ability to hot-wire a car or escape out of a prison cell using a hairpin is not automatically endearing, and does not make Robyn an Emma-figure. 

The B-plot with Regina and Lucy was eye-roll worthy. Why even take a back-pack on a recon mission? The actor plays Facilier with charm, but I'm not seeing any chemistry between Samdi and Ronigina. And he wants the Dark One Dagger--how utterly unoriginal. 

I liked the scene between Ivy and Henry. They sure had more chemistry than all the legit couples in the episode. 

[Mabinogia]

I actually watched this episode (most of it) and made it all the way to the end (since I changed channels whenever Lucy was on). It wasn't bad. 

I wish the season had focused more on Rogers/Tilly Whook/Alice. I like the actors together, it's a fairly interesting storyline. I really liked Robin and Alice. Wish Robin had shown up on the show a lot sooner and that this whole storyline we're getting now had replaced the Cinderella crap from the beginning of the season. 

This season seemed to start with Henry as the center and all characters tied to him, but I think maybe they should have made Whook the center and all characters tied to him. Get rid of Cinderella and Lucy. Tremaine could still have been Rapunzel which would tie into Gothel and all that is currently happening. 

I can't help but think they writers realized what an epic fail the New Cinderella was and half way through completely and utterly changed direction. Too bad they waited so long. They might have salvaged this season if they'd redirected earlier. 

[KingOfHearts]

This episode had some good ideas in it. It proved the HH concept wasn't inherently terrible. Still, there were some trouble spots and a lot of momentum was lost from the past few weeks. It's part of the typical "mid-arc slog", I guess.

* Alice/Tilly is an amazing character and she's just as well-written as any of OUAT's classics. She deserves to be in the finale with everybody else, even if that's not where the story goes.
* Robyn is kind of a mixed bag. I like the idea of her being a bratty millennial, because that hasn't been done too much on the show before. She's not a likable character, although I do see potential for growth. However, that really impedes on the appeal of her relationship with Alice. I don't really ship Wonder Hood, but I could see them as frenemies.
* Drizella even talks about dying. I haven't seen a character so marked for death since Charlie from Lost.
* Lucy is not a bright kid. Regina and Facilier had an entire lunch date, and she still wasn't finished? Does she not care about danger at all?
* I realize that Roni/Henry was meant to mimic Mary Margaret/Emma, but WHook/Tilly is a much better match. I got the same feels when he invited her to live with him.

I'm left with a bittersweet taste in my mouth. On one hand, some of the characters are charming. On the other, the show's almost over, so it's hard to get attached something you know will be gone in just a few weeks. This episode slowed down and gave the characters some endearing moments, which is quite obviously what makes it stick out as half-decent one.

[Camera One]

20 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

* Alice/Tilly is an amazing character and she's just as well-written as any of OUAT's classics. She deserves to be in the finale with everybody else, even if that's not where the story goes.

I would also credit the acting since that is a huge part of it.  I'm not sure if it would have worked with a different actress.  And it helps that she has such good chemistry with Whook.

Quote

* Robyn is kind of a mixed bag. I like the idea of her being a bratty millennial, because that hasn't been done too much on the show before. She's not a likable character, although I do see potential for growth. However, that really impedes on the appeal of her relationship with Alice. I don't really ship Wonder Hood, but I could see them as frenemies.

This was a big part of why I still considered this a middle-of-the-road episode in terms of quality.  I didn't buy her arc (eg. the realizations she came to) in this episode at all.  The writers seemed to throw a bunch of random stuff in there with their heart-to-heart talk like she used to be a mean girl, etc., but it was too much telling and not enough showing.  I agree that it reduced the appeal of the entire relationship and contributed to my feeling that Alice was too good for Robyn (plus I felt zero chemistry).  Because in many ways, this episode was more about Robyn growing than Alice.  Alice's whole realization hinged on her finding someone who actually cares about her, and she's only known Robyn for a day, who betrayed her.  Yes, Robyn eventually saw the light but it needs way more development.  Way more poignant was what happened with Rogers in the present-day.  This episode could have been even better if the flashbacks involved Alice and Whook instead of Alice and Robyn.

Quote

* Lucy is not a bright kid. Regina and Facilier had an entire lunch date, and she still wasn't finished? Does she not care about danger at all?

I was going to type something similar before but I didn't want to be too harsh, LOL.  I'll let you be the bad guy here.  :D  

Roni was stupid as hell not to have Zelena help her instead.  Lucy wouldn't even know what to look for.  Zelena would know what magical items Dr. Facilier might have.  And it was predictable as hell that the villain knew exactly what Regina was up to and knew Lucy was there.  So it was all pointless.  He would have just told her straight out.  Heck, Facilier was going to invite Roni in, and if she had entered, she would have seen the tarot cards on the table.  It wasn't like it was hidden.  This is yet another example of a waste of time pointless filler subplot.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Camera One

[CCTC]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Roni was stupid as hell not to have Zelena help her instead.

This is exactly what I thought - why are you having your young grandchild do a job your very capable adult sister could do.  That was just driven home later when she actually ran into Zelina.

I did think overall it was one of the better episodes of the season.  The two young ladies actually had some chemistry and did not seem like they were pushing too hard to make them insta-epic.  I think Dorthy and Red had a true loves kiss before they even held hands and I am still in denial that they had Hades & Zelina have an epic love worthy of a true love's kiss.

Whook and Tilly were good together and Regina and Facillier might have had a bit more chemistry in this episode.

At this point, they really did not need to bring Carlyle back.  Has he done anything significant since ripping off Up and have they brought up the Guardian since then?  

[mehtotheworld]

32 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

* Drizella even talks about dying. I haven't seen a character so marked for death since Charlie from Lost.

I am so dense about anvils like this, but I really hope this isn't foreshadowing. She's one of very few characters I care about this season. I swear, on my death bed I will rail against the lost opportunity with Drizella/Henry (even if he is bland) and the waste of a half season focused on Lucinda and her boring kid. 

Overall not a horrible episode if you fast forward through most of it! Can't say much about Regina because I don't care about whatever is going on there, but I surprisingly didn't hate the Hook/Tilly parts of the episode. I expected to be bothered by too much Tilly, but the actress really pulled through. The Alice/Robin parts were also tolerable, although Robin can use some work--they have a nice chemistry, but I'm not sold on the character just yet. Unlike Lucinda/Henry, I'm glad they seem to be moving slowly on this pairing (meaning any declarations of undying love will be at last 2 episodes in).

[KingOfHearts]

32 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Roni was stupid as hell not to have Zelena help her instead.  Lucy wouldn't even know what to look for.  Zelena would know what magical items Dr. Facilier might have.  And it was predictable as hell that the villain knew exactly what Regina was up to and knew Lucy was there.  So it was all pointless.  He would have just told her straight out.  Heck, Facilier was going to invite Roni in, and if she had entered, she would have seen the tarot cards on the table.  It wasn't like it was hidden.  This is yet another example of a waste of time pointless filler subplot.

Mistakes like this would be more passable if Regina were younger or had less character development. Seasons ago, she would have been more reckless. But nowadays, as with Zelena, WHook, and Weaver, she's meant to be older and wiser. She shouldn't be doing stupid stuff like putting her step-great-great graunddaughter in danger or dating Facilier for the the lulz.

Regina's only role this season has been to angst over some dilemma. "I have to keep Henry and Jacinda apart, but I don't want to! I have to choose between saving Henry or Lucy! I love Dr. Facilier, but I have to stop him from getting the Dagger! Ergh! I'm sure if I just stand here and do nothing, someone else will solve the problem for me again!"

32 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I would also credit the acting since that is a huge part of it.  I'm not sure if it would have worked with a different actress.  And it helps that she has such good chemistry with Whook.

The same applies to the S1 characters, I believe. The acting was more than half what made them great. The actress playing Alice/Tilly is excellent at portraying a slightly insane but lovable girl.

Quote

I am so dense about anvils like this, but I really hope this isn't foreshadowing. She's one of very few characters I care about this season. I swear, on my death bed I will rail against the lost opportunity with Drizella/Henry (even if he is bland) and the waste of a half season focused on Lucinda and her boring kid. 

Best case scenario is that Drizella goes off to live with Anastasia for infinity and beyond.

Quote

This was a big part of why I still considered this a middle-of-the-road episode in terms of quality.  I didn't buy her arc (eg. the realizations she came to) in this episode at all.  The writers seemed to throw a bunch of random stuff in there with their heart-to-heart talk like she used to be a mean girl, etc., but it was too much telling and not enough showing.  

Exactly what I was thinking. Nobody talks like Robyn did during the heart-to-heart. She gave us the reader's digest version of something we should have seen firsthand. Robyn has a pretty good baseplate for a character who could evolve and mature over time, but we've only got eight episodes left. There's plenty to do with her but no time to do it.

Quote

I liked the scene between Ivy and Henry. They sure had more chemistry than all the legit couples in the episode. 

I'm really enjoying Ivy/Drizella. Her redemption arc is already above Regina's. She's already going on her apology tour, though it's awkward knowing that if Henry were awake, he'd probably want to strangle her.

Edited March 24, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[rogvortex58]

That was definitely an improvement. Rose’s portrayal of Alice is just so engaging. The way she reacts and looks at things, and interacts with people. Too bad they couldn’t have made her a regular.

[Camera One]

Favorite lines of the episode time.  Here's mine:

REGINA: Rumple is my oldest friend.

[KingOfHearts]

16 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Favorite lines of the episode time.  Here's mine:

REGINA: Rumple is my oldest friend.

Nevermind that it's murder, DO Facilier could be dangerous, or Rumple is Lucy's great-grandfather.

Edited March 24, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[twoods]

Seriously writers, you throw me a great Ivy/Henry scene and then nothing the rest of this episode? I wish Drizella gets her happy ending with Henry and Jacinda goes somewhere with Lucy far, far away. That would be a better ending than the likely chemistry-free ending we will get. What a waste of a potentially good storyline.

Alice was annoying at times, but I hope her and Nook wake up soon so they can reunite. I love their flashback scenes.

Facillier is very charming, and wouldn’t mind him getting the upper hand on Rumple. 

Its telling that I would rather root for the “villains” more than the “heroes”- except for Gothel who better die.

[Camera One]

So how is Drew/Naveen cozying up to Tiana supposed to help Facilier get the Dark One dagger?  

[Kimmel77]

23 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

Why does Alice/Tilly talk so weird? 

How do smartphones work in the Enchanted Forest?

This show is so boring now.

I found it a bit freaky when Robyn pulled it out. Beyond it being random, she didn't really think much about the effect introducing technology could have on the Enchanted Forest. I wonder how she keeps it charged? Mobile charge that uses sunlight?

Edited March 25, 2018 by Kimmel77

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, twoods said:

Seriously writers, you throw me a great Ivy/Henry scene and then nothing the rest of this episode? I wish Drizella gets her happy ending with Henry and Jacinda goes somewhere with Lucy far, far away. That would be a better ending than the likely chemistry-free ending we will get. What a waste of a potentially good storyline.

I would actually have stuck with this season if they went that root. I like Ivy and think her and Henry had good chemistry and some interesting story potential. Plus, Henry would be basically dating one mother (Regina, also a "reformed" villain) and reenacting his other mothers romance (good guy converting villain to hero for love). How did the writers not jump all over this? Oh, right, they're allergic to actual romantic chemistry. 

This season would have been a lot better if they'd paired Henry and Ivy, dumped Jacinda and Lucy completely, brought Zelena and Robin in much sooner, focused more on Alice/Tilly and Whook/Rogers and built their relationship up a bit slower, and gave Tiana more to to do. 

The only newbies of any real interest to me were Alice, Tiana and Ivy, and Lucy's dad, was it Nick or something? for the eye candy factor. 

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

She shouldn't be doing stupid stuff like putting her step-great-great graunddaughter in danger or dating Facilier for the the lulz.

The writers are trying to exactly replicate Season 1 dynamics between Emma-Snow and Emma-Henry with Roni-Henry, and Roni-Lucy. But it's not working because they're all different characters, and it's unnatural for them to behave like the S1 originals. As you said, the WHook-Tilly plot is the actual spiritual successor of the Season 1 dynamic between Emma and Snow. Even if this hadn't been their inital intention, the writers ought to have recognized its potential and run with it.

15 minutes ago, Kimmel77 said:

Mobile charge that uses sunlight?

In the future, solar energy's taken over as the main energy source. :-p

[Camera One]

After the gasoline fiasco, they STILL decided to throw in a smartphone with zero explanation.

[thuganomics85]

I guess we can call that "Operation For Christ Sakes, If You're Going to Break Into Someone's Apartment, Pay Attention to Your Freaking Phone In Case He Comes Back, Lucy!"  Granted, it sounded like Regina/Facilier actually did go eat some chowder, so just how slow is Lucy that she didn't even get to the cards on the table until then?  Or really, as others have said, why didn't Regina simply loop in Zelena and have her be the spy?  Nope, just send the freaking kid to do the job of a spy.  Genius!

That said, this actually was probably the best episode of this season, which is an admittedly low bar to jump over, but at this point I'll take it.  Alice/Tilly is probably the best of the new characters alongside Ivy, and Rose Reynolds did an excellent job here, I thought.  Tiera Skovbye didn't quite match her (possibly because I still can't help but to see her as Polly from Riverdale), but I enjoyed the Alice/Robin pairing enough, and I'm glad there actually building to it, as opposed to the random rush job they did with Ruby/Dorothy.  Although I do wish it didn't feel so similar to how the Charmings met, mainly because it just makes me miss that pair.  Man, even if they could be goofy or "boring" at times, their absence is really being felt here.

I do hope Hook gets his memories back soon, because I really want to see how his reunion with Alice plays out.

So, Ivy/Drizella is going to go off to make amends?  I couldn't hear who she was saying she was going to go to first.  Hope she isn't gone for too long, but then again, I won't be surprised if she is destined for a tragic end.

And, yes, probably what helped this episode was no Jacinda!

Edited March 25, 2018 by thuganomics85

[Rumsy4]

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

... it reduced the appeal of the entire relationship and contributed to my feeling that Alice was too good for Robyn 

At this point, Alice is too good for Robyn. What I found most annoying about Robyn (more than her betrayal of Alice) was when she complained about not knowing her own dad when Alice was talking about hers. She didn't seem to even recognize that the opposite was true for Alice--Alice also grew up knowing only one parent. Her so-called mother was even responsible for her imprisonment and separation from her dad. I'm not sure Alice actually knows that Gothel was her biological mother, but even otherwise, it must have been obvious to Robyn that the other girl was motherless. And yet, she seemed to talk as if her not having a father was somehow worse because Alice's dad used to call her "Starfish". Her childhood and upbringing were privileged in a way Alice's wasn't, and yet she acted like some poor little rich girl. 

However, one thing that excuses Robyn a little is her youth and the fact that she has started to recognize and move past her immaturity. First, she was foolishly associating with evil users of magic in a spirit of teenage rebellion. When she learned her lesson, she was quick to give it up and tried to do the opposite and decided to seek glory by heroism (like Henry). Which she soon realized was not true heroism after all. I liked the symbolism of her helping Alice realize that she had freed herself from her Tower-prison, and so helped her to get free from her "mental" prison. So she kind of played the role of "Flynn Rider" without it being an on the nose parallel. It also helped that they didn't immediately start kissing and she is no mass murderer. lol

I wonder if Robyn knows she has a half-brother, and if she has ever met him. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I wonder if Robyn knows she has a half-brother, and if she has ever met him. 

I kind of doubt the writers know Robyn has a half-brother. Hell, it took me a few moments to remember Robin had a son. Wonder what, was it Roland?, is up to these days? I didn't watch Season 6 (and from the sounds of it, I didn't miss anything) so if they spoke of Roland I wouldn't know. 

[tennisgurl]

As low as a bar that they show has set this season, I actually thought this was one of the better episodes. It had some fun calls backs to Alice in Wonderland and Robin Hood that actually worked and didn't come off as cheap shout outs, and Robin and Alice are both likable and played by talented actresses. And, while the call backs to Charming and Snow are still pretty lame, the relationship actually worked for me, and I can buy that they would go on to have a big epic romance. It certainly worked more than that insulting rush job they through at Ruby/Dorothy just to check "LGBTQ romance" off their token list. 

That being said, there were issues. Tilly/Alice is a really good character, but Robin, while still more interesting than the "abrasive and mean=awesome female character", seems to kind of exist just to move plot points around. Is she a mean girl? Thrill seeker? Wannabe witch? Hero? I can see how her character has/had developed, but it seems to be happening off screen, in a classic Once show dont tell info dump. Really, most of the characters are like this, to greater or lesser extends. I can guess how people developed in off-screen land, but I have no idea how it actually happened. 

Yeah...what was Robin plugging that phone into to get her charge? Her bringing her phone into the forest isn't such a horrible idea (although I still roll my eyes at how freaking easy it is to cross worlds now) but how long had she been there? Is it so easy to get back to modern day Main that she can just hop back every few hours to grab her phone charger and catch a few episodes of Jessica Jones on Netflix before running back to the magical forest? Yeah, Rumples plan is looking sadder and sadder every day, isn't it? Also, why do they bother calling WHook Nook? Most people there didn't even know the original Hook. And if there are an infinite number of universes out there, why both numbering people?

Lucy really is new at this, isnt she? Look at your dang phone when your snooping, or why bring it at all? Even little Henry would have known that! I am so not invested in HH and whatever Regina is doing, I was hardly even paying attention. I mean, I tried to pay attention, but its really hard at this point. Regina, as a character, has long since moved past being dynamic or interesting. She had her whole arc (as poorly written as I found it to be) and now, she just seems to be along for the ride. At least Zelena still has some life in her. 

I did like the Rogers and Tilly stuff, because their story is one of the only ones I am actually interested in. I do wonder, did they do some kind of magic to make people forget her? Tilly might not have roots, but she is pretty memorable. Or do Seattle groceries see lots of cockney street kids that talk in riddles?

Drizella and Henry really do have so much more chemistry than he Cinderella, and have the potential to be a more interesting couple. So, of course, she will probably die soon.

[Camera One]

5 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

What I found most annoying about Robyn (more than her betrayal of Alice) was when she complained about not knowing her own dad when Alice was talking about hers. She didn't seem to even recognize that the opposite was true for Alice--Alice also grew up knowing only one parent....  And yet, she seemed to talk as if her not having a father was somehow worse because Alice's dad used to call her "Starfish". Her childhood and upbringing were privileged in a way Alice's wasn't, and yet she acted like some poor little rich girl. 

 

Yeah, I thought that was very "me me me" of her.  You know what they really could have bonded over is their fathers being raped, but I don't think they're ever going there.

I think I was more disturbed by the betrayal because I was imagining what it was like for Alice, to be trapped in a prison while her friend was being hunted and murdered.  That would have been traumatizing, and very reminiscent of what it was like when she was in the Tower, helpless, while a loved one was being targeted.  Robyn, no matter how young, made a conscious decision to go kill her friend, and would have done so if Alice hadn't stopped her. 

So Robyn's revelations in the car (which came out of nowhere) were too little, too late, for me.  I couldn't buy how Robyn came to learn something from the mob situation.  Even the dialogue doesn't make it clear.

ROBYN: I think we lost the mob.  
ALICE: Why did you help me back there?
ROBYN: I don't know... You know, back in Storybrooke, I was kind of a mean girl... <insert long monologue about being popular, approval from friends was addicting, I came here to start over to seek my father's legacy for the same dumb reasons...> Back there, I think I remembered what being Robin Hood is really about.  Protecting those who need it.
ALICE: Thank you.  For being on my side.

I felt badly for Alice because maybe due to her lack of experience, she started looking at Robyn as if the sun and stars set on her and she was the greatest friend ever.  As a viewer, I was thinking "Uh... okay?"  Robyn didn't even apologize.

Quote

I liked the symbolism of her helping Alice realize that she had freed herself from her Tower-prison, and so helped her to get free from her "mental" prison. So she kind of played the role of "Flynn Rider" without it being an on the nose parallel. It also helped that they didn't immediately start kissing and she is no mass murderer. lol

I also didn't feel that it was natural or earned that Robyn recognized this, except the "Look, you may be mad, but you have magic. I can sense it."  She just suddenly became the exposition fairy giving Alice the answer she needed.  Maybe it would have worked if this was spread out over more than one episode, but as it were, I didn't buy it.

Well, I'm just thankful that this episode didn't ruin Alice/Tilly, who is the main person I cared about.  But the epic romance left me cold.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

29 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Well, I'm just thankful that this episode didn't ruin Alice/Tilly, who is the main person I cared about. 

I almost wish Alice had been introduced in an earlier season so that she would have more to do. 

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I felt badly for Alice because maybe due to her lack of experience, she started looking at Robyn as if the sun and stars set on her and she was the greatest friend ever.

That for sure. Robyn is, as far as we know, the first young person to befriend Alice. Her adventures in Wonderland would’ve been full of other quirky people (plus somehow, Murderella’s mother). To my mind, this felt more like a first love/crush situation than the start of an epic romance. 

Someone remind me when Robin Hood 1.0 protected weak people? Sounds like Robyn’s been fed some tall stories about her father. 

Also, reminder to the writers—being a thief is not a heritable trait. Just because Robin Hood was a thief doesn’t mean his daughter acquired the genes on how to pick locks and hotwire cars. It is also not an endearing trait, especially not in a rich kid. Was she a Mean Girl in high school as she claimed, or was she part of a delinquent gang?

Edited March 25, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

On 3/23/2018 at 9:34 PM, KingOfHearts said:

Tilly left her coffee maker on, and that's really bothering me.

That bugged me, too, but I think it was an electric teakettle (it looked a lot like the one I have, plus she's Alice, as in tea parties), which means that even if turning off the main switch didn't shut it off, it will shut itself off when it boils.

On 3/23/2018 at 11:54 PM, Camera One said:

I spent much of the episode wondering how a troll could get her out of a Tower that she was trapped in by magic, but (spoiler alert), then they explained at the end that Alice magicked the troll into existence because she wished to escape.  But Gothel herself couldn't magick herself out?  

Maybe she just didn't think that creatively, didn't make a wish. She was trying to go out the window and didn't think about conjuring up a giant. I wonder if WHook could have freed her by cutting through the roof or if it took the magical intervention.

On 3/23/2018 at 11:54 PM, Camera One said:

Someone help me with the timeline.  I was confused why the Tower was still intact in this episode.  I thought it was already destroyed when Regina and Whook first arrived.  Didn't Regina teach Drizella magic in its ruins?  

I think the beginning scene was some time before Regina and WHook arrived. Then the giant ripped the top off. That was the state it was in for the rest of the episode, and was the condition it was in when Regina and Drizella were there.

20 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

The writers are trying to exactly replicate Season 1 dynamics between Emma-Snow and Emma-Henry with Roni-Henry, and Roni-Lucy. But it's not working because they're all different characters, and it's unnatural for them to behave like the S1 originals. As you said, the WHook-Tilly plot is the actual spiritual successor of the Season 1 dynamic between Emma and Snow. Even if this hadn't been their inital intention, the writers ought to have recognized its potential and run with it.

The Roni-Lucy stuff doesn't work like Emma and Henry because Roni knows it's all true and knows that Facilier is a danger, and sent Lucy in, anyway. When Emma was abetting Henry's "operations," she thought it was just his imagination. She didn't know that Regina really was an evil sorceress with a secret agenda. She thought Regina was just a bitch and not actually dangerous. Plus, Emma and Henry were getting to know each other. Regina and Lucy supposedly have a relationship that Regina remembers and Lucy thinks they have but doesn't seem to have actual memories. And yet, have we seen Regina interacting with Lucy in the past? Even with baby Lucy, we saw WHook making faces to her, but I don't think we've seen Grandma Regina interact with her at all. When they're not getting to know each other in the first place after being separated all Lucy's life but we also don't know what their relationship was, there's no emotion to seeing them now. WHook and Tilly were giving me all the Mary Margaret and Emma feelings, especially when he invited her to stay with him, but we had at least some scenes with them in the past to see their relationship, and we saw what being forced apart did to them.

13 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Granted, it sounded like Regina/Facilier actually did go eat some chowder, so just how slow is Lucy that she didn't even get to the cards on the table until then?

Wouldn't that have been one of the first things she noticed? Look at the things that are immediately visible before you start opening drawers and cabinets.

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I do wonder, did they do some kind of magic to make people forget her? Tilly might not have roots, but she is pretty memorable. Or do Seattle groceries see lots of cockney street kids that talk in riddles?

Yeah, the "invisibility" thing really felt like it had to be magical. The people at my grocery store remember me, and I don't even order weird stuff like marmalade sandwiches. There was that car that almost hit her, which made it look like she's been given some kind of Someone Else's Problem field. Her going around trying to find people who remembered her reminded me of Neverwhere, in the part where Richard has been affected by his interactions with London Below, so that he's been forgotten and is semi-invisible -- his flat gets rented out while he's in it, no one at work remembers or recognizes him, people see him, but they don't really register him.

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Someone remind me when Robin Hood 1.0 protected weak people? Sounds like Robyn’s been fed some tall stories about her father. 

I guess she read the books that would have been in the Storybrooke library and figured they were really about her father without realizing that her father was Robin In Name Only. But even storybook Robin's way of protecting weak people wouldn't have been to shoot ogres. If she wants to live up to the Robin Hood legacy, the resistance movement against a cruel king would have been the way to go. Mind you, that would have been the legend, not her actual father, who thought that a tyrant queen was "bold and audacious." And I guess it wouldn't have fit this episode. It was all very shoehorned together.

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Also, reminder to the writers—being a thief is not a heritable trait. Just because Robin Hood was a thief doesn’t mean his daughter acquired the genes on how to pick locks and hotwire cars. It is also not an endearing trait, especially not in a rich kid.

Yeah, that worked for Emma because of her backstory. Now they just have random characters knowing how to pick locks, regardless of whether it makes sense. Who would have taught this to Robyn? Would Emma or Hook have bothered teaching her? Context might have helped here, if she'd mentioned more about her relationship with Emma and Hook beyond a vague mention of "the sheriff."

I'd had the impression from previous episodes that Robyn's cursed identity was Tilly's ex she mentioned, since she went off to the same place that Zelena said her daughter had gone. But they didn't seem to know each other here. So more than one person the same age from this neighborhood went off to the same remote place? And how much of this was real and how much is cursed memories?

I was halfway expecting Tilly to hug Rogers at the end when he offered her a place to live, and him to then keel over, and they'd think it was some kind of "heart attack." Does the poison not work in this world, like with Henry's poison? Will they be torn apart if the curse is broken?

[Mabinogia]

11 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I guess she read the books that would have been in the Storybrooke library and figured they were really about her father without realizing that her father was Robin In Name Only.

They could have had some fun with that. Maybe Robyn was reading about a Robin Hood from one of the other realms. Hell, maybe the Alice in Wonderland she was reading about was the one from Once Upon a Time in Wonderland. lol Hell, maybe Lucy has the wrong Henry and a totally different Henry is her father. 

They really opened a can of worms that allows them to come up with anything. 

I, too, was bugged by Alice not turning off that tea kettle or coffee pot. Just seems like a fire hazard. I was less bothered by Regina using Lucy to spy because my head canon is that Regina hates her as much as I do and was hoping the kid would get sucked into some kind of voodoo wormhole to never be heard from again. Unlikely? Sure, but with this show... eh

[Rumsy4]

21 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Wouldn't that have been one of the first things she noticed? Look at the things that are immediately visible before you start opening drawers and cabinets.

She also wasn't being careful about leaving Facilier's things undisturbed in the careless way she was rooting around. Even if Facilier hadn't found her hat, he would soon have realized that someone had been in his flat, and put two and two together. Maybe Lucy should expand her reading to include Nancy Drews. 

21 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yeah, the "invisibility" thing really felt like it had to be magical. ... Her going around trying to find people who remembered her reminded me of Neverwhere, in the part where Richard has been affected by his interactions with London Below, so that he's been forgotten and is semi-invisible -- his flat gets rented out while he's in it, no one at work remembers or recognizes him, people see him, but they don't really register him.

I love Neverwhere. I'm starting to wonder if this was part of Gothel's masterplan. Maybe she meant to push Rogers and Tilly together for some  agenda of her own--perhaps to test if Tilly is Guardian material as a backup. First, she irritated Rogers enough for him to admit that he was lonely. Then, she set Tilly up for the crime. Now, I don't know why she would want to bring father and daughter together in HH when she was doing the opposite in the Disenchanted Forest, but OUAT villains do convoluted things like that. Besides, we still don't know what the heck her end goal is.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

7 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think the beginning scene was some time before Regina and WHook arrived. Then the giant ripped the top off. That was the state it was in for the rest of the episode, and was the condition it was in when Regina and Drizella were there.

I couldn't remember, so I had to look back at old video clips.  The Tower that Adult Alice and Robyn saw (also a closeup later that same video) seemed much more intact than the Tower that Regina and Drizella were doing magic under.

But Alice/Robyn were there after Lucy was born so how could the tower be in better shape than when Regina and Drizella were there before Lucy was born?  The timelines this season are even more of a headache than usual so I don't know if I'm confused or the production crew is confused.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Now, I don't know why she would want to bring father and daughter together in HH when she was doing the opposite in the Disenchanted Forest, but OUAT villains do convoluted things like that. Besides, we still don't know what the heck her end goal is.

She wanted them apart in the Disenchanted Forest because she didn't want WHook to free Alice from the tower. I'm not sure why him not being able to hug her would have kept him from using the hook to tear down the tower, but I guess it depends on the range of the poison. If he couldn't get to the top of the tower without being affected, it might stop him, but then why couldn't he get someone else to use the hook? He could have sent Smee to do it. It seems like he gave up awfully easily, which is out of character for Captain Century-Long Obsession. There doesn't seem much reason for Gothel to want them together now. I wonder, does Gothel know Alice is the real Guardian (assuming she is) and has just been letting Rumple think Anastasia is? Maybe there's something about Alice feeling love that amps up her Guardianness. Her magic did seem linked to strong emotion in the flashback. She was able to summon the giant out of loneliness and the Bug out of fear.

If the "invisibility" thing was being done to her, that seems more like it was set up to help frame her because it robbed her of her alibi. The people doing the framing didn't count on the security camera in the troll, but otherwise they definitely planted evidence on her, and they fogged her memory and made her not be noticed by others, so no one could account for her whereabouts. Unless it's a (typically) convoluted plot to frame her so that Rogers would be even more determined to help her, so they'd be more likely to be pulled together, it seems more like they were just trying to frame her, but the scheme was foiled and possibly backfired when it pulled Tilly and Rogers closer together.

And we still don't know how Drizella and Anastasia got magical powers. It seemed kind of like Anastasia got powers from being revived like she was (and presumably therefore becoming the Guardian). She was surprised to have such strong power. But then Drizella also has power. Lady Tremaine talked about not relying on magic because it can be taken away from you, and we assumed at the time that it was because she'd had power that had been taken from her. When we figured out that she was Rapunzel, we thought it would be like Tangled, where she had magic hair that became normal when it was cut off. But there was never any indication that she had any magic.

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The Tower that Adult Alice and Robyn saw (1:14 into video) seemed much more intact than the Tower that Regina and Drizella were doing magic under (0.28 into video).

It doesn't look that different to me. It may be that one is in the darkness, and so shadow could have filled it out to make it look more solid than it would have looked in daylight, and the other is in daylight, so it's an obvious ruin. With a dash of poor continuity because the artist doing the CGI of the tower in the earlier episode didn't know how/why the tower was destroyed, and the artist doing the CGI in the later episode knew the roof was ripped off (and may not have been informed where it was in continuity).

9 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But I thought Regina and Drizella met before Henry and Jacinda had their baby, which had already been born by the time Robyn came to the Disenchanted Forest.

Definitely. I thought Regina and Drizella met before Henry and Ella even got together. Drizella could already do magic (after one lesson) and knew about the curse when she showed up to make her "prophecy" about the curse when Lucy was a baby.

[Camera One]

22 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It doesn't look that different to me. It may be that one is in the darkness, and so shadow could have filled it out to make it look more solid than it would have looked in daylight, and the other is in daylight, so it's an obvious ruin. 

It looks quite different to me.  When Alice and Robyn sees it, the part where Alice would have been living was still there .  Only the roof was removed.  You can see it even clearer at 2:08.  The window areas are even visible.  But with Regina and Drizella, the living quarters were completely gone.  In fact, Regina even crumbled more of the vertical part of the wall to give Drizella motivation.

22 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But then Drizella also has power. Lady Tremaine talked about not relying on magic because it can be taken away from you, and we assumed at the time that it was because she'd had power that had been taken from her. When we figured out that she was Rapunzel, we thought it would be like Tangled, where she had magic hair that became normal when it was cut off. But there was never any indication that she had any magic.

Yeah, that totally makes no sense.  Drizella said something about how she always had power but Tremaine didn't want her to use it or something.  And then she blamed Anastasia for taking her power.  Maybe that will become clear in a future episode.  Or not.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Is it rocket science to keep timelines consistent, or are these writers just lazy?

[Rumsy4]

It’s almost insulting they’re this sloppy with continuity and timelines this season. Insulting to themselves. There is just no excuse for this level of deliberate incompetence.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Is it rocket science to keep timelines consistent, or are these writers just lazy?

I made the mistake of thinking about the timeline just before I went to sleep last night.

So, the events of this flashback happened approximately 18 years after Emma met Old WHook in the Wish Realm (since Robyn was an infant then and is 18 at the time she comes to the Disenchanted Forest when Lucy is an infant). The events of the previous flashback involving WHook must have happened at least five years before Emma met him in the forest because even if he went straight from the heart poisoning to returning to the Wish Realm and crawling inside a cask of rum, it would take some time for him to go from slim and youthful with a couple of gray highlights to fat and white-haired. But then that still means that Alice was at least ten at least five years before Robyn was born. But they seem to be about the same age.

And that's also assuming WHook just totally abandons his daughter and gives up hope of helping her before he crawls into a cask of rum. It is in character for him to totally blame himself and beat himself up for being the worst person ever, but he also generally isn't prone to giving up on his obsessions. Would he really just leave his child alone in the tower and go drink away his sorrows? Or did he hang around a while, trying to help, shouting up to the tower so she wouldn't feel lonely, maybe sending supplies up even if he couldn't get near? From his dying speech to Hook Prime, it sounded like his despair was that he couldn't find his daughter, so was it coming back to the tower and finding the top ripped off and Alice gone that drove him into decline? In which case, you can probably add at least five years before he let himself go, and then if you add five years to get into the state where Emma met him, gets into Alice being close to 20 years older than Robyn.

I would be totally fine with a "time moves differently in different realms" explanation, but they have to make it clear on the show, not just on Twitter, and it has to move the same within the same realm. If Robyn is 18, then 18 years have passed in Storybrooke. If Lucy is 8, then everyone around her needs to be at least 8 years older than they were when she was born. And if an age is really out of whack with expectations, then characters should comment on it.

On another note, it's rather painfully obvious that everything in this episode was reverse engineered to get to the desired result. They wanted to explain the troll with the Bug. That meant Alice had to conjure up the Bug, which meant Robyn needed a reason to show her the picture of the Bug, which meant they needed to come up with an excuse to have Robyn show a picture of the Bug. But why, of all the cars in Storybrooke, would Robyn have chosen the Bug to steal to make her escape? Didn't Regina leave behind a Mercedes? That would have been easier, since it's not a stick shift, not owned by the sheriff, and doesn't have an owner currently in town to report it missing. How many kids today can even drive a stick? I drive one, but I'm old and am generally seen as a dinosaur in that respect. And then you have to consider the car's age. I know those Bugs are pretty indestructible, but add 18 years to it, and it didn't spend 28 years frozen in time. As said above, stealing a car is not an endearing trait. They could have reached the same outcome by maybe having Robyn explain why they call Alice's father "Nook" by showing a picture of Hook Prime that happens to include the Bug. Then Alice might conjure the Bug when they need an escape because she's thinking about wanting her father. Yeah, maybe less romantic, but I don't necessarily consider that conjuring the car someone tried to steal to be romantic, either.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 3/25/2018 at 11:31 AM, tennisgurl said:

Also, why do they bother calling WHook Nook? Most people there didn't even know the original Hook.

I laugh every time the show mentions "Nook".  I think Adam and Eddy found out we were calling him Whook and since they don't really want anyone to remember the Wish Realm Snow and Charming that Regina murdered, since you know - they're not real or anything like Whook obviously is - they came up with Nook to try to divert attention away from that hot mess since Regina is all The New Savior now.  lol.

[Rumsy4]

It can be very annoying when writers try to be "cool" and put in cutsey winks and nods. It didn't work well when they tried to make an insta-couple out of Red and Dorothy by making a pun out of "Ruby Slippers". "Nook" doesn't work either.

Please leave the nicknames and shipnames to the fans. It's our prerogative. 

[Camera One]

18 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Is it rocket science to keep timelines consistent, or are these writers just lazy?

 

12 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

It’s almost insulting they’re this sloppy with continuity and timelines this season. Insulting to themselves. There is just no excuse for this level of deliberate incompetence.

Casual fans probably wouldn't notice or give a second thought.  And who cares about what the psychos think.

[Rumsy4]

I’m sure casual fans are super-confused as well. I wish we could find out. Would facebook commenters be considered casual?