Polygamy Discussion: Not That There's Anything Wrong With That

[DakotaJustice]

I wish they'd get Seth Myers to interview the Browns for the tell all. 

[AZChristian]

Rumor has it that they were kicked out of the AUB offshoot they belonged to.  If they have their own home church/religion, it's an offshoot of the offshoot.  Number one rule is, "Whatever Kody says that God told him this week is how we're living this week.  Please check back for updates regarding next week's revelations."

[Kohola3]

4 hours ago, AZChristian said:

Whatever Kody says that God told him this week is how we're living this week.  Please check back for updates regarding next week's revelations.

Of course, historically that's how the Mormon's roll.  The leaders of old (and today in those child incest sects) are always having "revelations" about this stuff so the rules change depending on the Prophet's whim of the week.

[suomi]

https://www.sltrib.com/news/polygamy/2018/03/20/rowenna-erickson-plural-wife-who-became-one-of-utahs-top-polygamy-critics-dies-at-78/

[Galloway Cave]

Quote

Kingston was an attorney. [Roweena] Erickson said he gave little financial or emotional support to her and her eventual eight children.

“He’d come over late at night, have dinner, boss [the children] around, sleep with their mother, then leave in the morning,” she wrote.

Polygamy in a nutshell.

[suomi]

The original event occurred in '98, the year when Rowena Erickson founded Tapestry. I lived in Cache County then, next to Box Elder County, and Mary Ann's beating was the talk of the town (among Gentiles and those fallen away, that is.)
 

Quote

 

August 20, 2004

A judge has dismissed two defamation lawsuits brought against a woman, who, when she was 16, was beaten by her father when she fled a polygamous marriage to her uncle.

The lawsuits were filed by two Davis County couples from the Kingston clan after MaryAnn Kingston, now 22, filed a $110 million lawsuit against the clan, naming 242 members and 97 of the family businesses as defendants.

Her suit, which claims the clan fosters sexual abuse of young girls through illegal marriages, incest and polygamy, remains pending in 3rd District Court.

In 1998, she walked seven miles from a family ranch in Box Elder County to call police after her father beat her unconscious with a belt for her resistance to becoming his brother's 15th wife. Her father, John Daniel Kingston, pleaded no contest to third-degree felony child abuse and was sentenced to 28 weeks in jail. Her uncle, David Ortell Kingston, was convicted of incest and unlawful sexual contact with a minor and served four years in prison.

After her suit was filed last year, the two Davis County couples claimed they were defamed by it and by accompanying public statements. Their suit named MaryAnn Kingston and her lawyers as defendants.

The Kingston clan, also known as the Latter-Day Church of Christ and "The Order," is believed to have 1,200 members and a $150 million business empire with holdings in six Western states.

 

https://www.culteducation.com/group/1099-polygamist-groups/16566-judge-dismisses-suit-against-kingston-beating-victim.html

[Kohola3]

Holy crap, the gall of those people to bring a suit against her for telling the truth! That kind of stuff just cannot be made up but it's absolutely nauseating.  And after spending time in prison I bet the Pervy Old Uncle is right back at it.

[Roslyn]

16 minutes ago, suomi said:

The original event occurred in '98, the year when Rowena Erickson founded Tapestry. I lived in Cache County then, next to Box Elder County, and Mary Ann's beating was the talk of the town (among Gentiles and those fallen away, that is.)
 

https://www.culteducation.com/group/1099-polygamist-groups/16566-judge-dismisses-suit-against-kingston-beating-victim.html

Isn't the 16 year old beating victim one of the girls who rescues polygamy people?  On the TV show Escaping Polygamy.  That's sounds like her story, her father is Daniel Kingston who is the father of all the girls on the show I think.

[suomi]

Quote

 

2/8/04

... the Kingstons' tangled family ties are threatening to unravel, thanks largely to the efforts of Lu Ann and another former Kingston wife, her niece Mary Ann. In 2000, Lu Ann and her two children fled the 1,000-person society that members call The Order, and she later cooperated with state prosecutors cracking down on sexual abuse of teen girls by polygamists. Last week Jeremy Kingston was sentenced to one year in jail after pleading guilty to felony incest.

In another legal threat to the clan, Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff is launching a financial probe of the Kingstons (as well as a second polygamous clan). He hopes to bring an organized-crime-style prosecution against the Kingstons, whose high-ranking members run ranches, shopping centers, a real-estate firm and a coal mine. Elden Kingston denies wrongdoing and dismisses the investigation as "just another example of the state's long history of persecution" of the Kingstons. But for decades after a disastrous 1953 raid wrenched hundreds of children from their parents, Utah officials virtually ignored the sect and other so-called fundamentalists who practice polygamy in defiance of the law and the Mormon Church's 1890 ban on plural marriage. The convictions of Mary Ann's father and uncle ended the laissez-faire period, and public opposition grew last year with the news that polygamy was behind the alleged kidnapping and sexual assault of 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart.

 

http://www.newsweek.com/familys-tangled-ties-131289

[Galloway Cave]

12 minutes ago, Roslyn said:

Isn't the 16 year old beating victim one of the girls who rescues polygamy people?  On the TV show Escaping Polygamy.  That's sounds like her story, her father is Daniel Kingston who is the father of all the girls on the show I think.

The Escaping Polygamy women are Shanell Snow Kingston, Stephanie Mattingly Kingston (now Jessica Christenson) and Andrea Mattingly Kingston (now Andrea Brewer). They are Daniel's daughters and Jessica and Andrea are full sisters. Shanell is the full sister of Kolleen Snow, our favorite anti-plyg who stared down Kody on that one episode where the Browns pretended to help plygs escaping.

[suomi]

I have never been able to wrap my mind about the fact that entire communities are described as polygamist/polygamous while federal and state governments look the other way. I have never seen or heard reference made in news reports to "counterfeiting communities" or "embezzlement communities" or "auto theft communities" or "arson communities" or "identity theft communities." Somehow, only one category of crime receives tacit official approval to thrive. W. T. F.

[kicotan]

1 hour ago, suomi said:

Somehow, only one category of crime receives tacit official approval to thrive. W. T. F.

Well, to be fair, there are communities and even an entire state that are referred to as "sanctuary" which could technically be called "immigration crime communities".

That being said, I believe that abusive behaviors in ANY church community should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, regardless of the denomination.

I'm well aware that many folks believe that practicing polygamy in and of itself is abusive, even if the participating members are consenting, peace-loving adults who don't rely on government hand-outs to support their family, but I disagree.

[kicotan]

I found this rather interesting:

"Inheritance: In In re Bir’s Estate, 83 Cal. App. 2d 256 (1948), the California Court of Appeal held that California would recognize a foreign polygamous marriage for the purposes of intestate succession. Though California public policy might lead to a different result “if decedent had attempted to cohabit with his two wives in California,” “[w]here only the question of descent of property is involved, ‘public policy’ is not affected.”

Both wives were thus allowed to share equally in the decedent’s property. Earlier authorities took a similar view as to other aspects of financial settlement. Thus, the Restatement (First) of Conflict of Laws (1934), offered this illustration: “A, domiciled in state X, validly marries B and C in X. By the law of Y, a polygamous marriage is void. A brings B and C to state Y; Y may refuse to permit him to cohabit with them. A and B die; Y may grant a widow’s allowance to C.” The children of the second and later wives could also be treated as legitimate, back when more legal rules turned on legitimacy. Back to the Restatement:

A validly marries three wives, first B, then C, and D, in state X [here “state" would likely mean a foreign country -EV]. By the law of state Y, a polygamous marriage is invalid. A has an only son, M, by his wife C; M is legitimate by the law of their domicil. A dies, leaving land in Y. M may inherit the land unless the law of Y imposes some requirement in addition to legitimacy for inheritance.

There were similar decisions in the late 1800s and early 1900s in cases involving American Indians who had entered into polygamous marriages recognized under tribal law."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/05/polygamous-foreign-marriages-under-u-s-law/?utm_term=.a774d369711f

[kicotan]

Also, some tribes in the Native American culture had some interesting customs regarding polygamy:

"Polygyny (the marriage of one man to several women) was common among many of the Southern Plains tribes. As a normal pattern, the second wife would be the sister of the first wife (a practice known as sororal polygyny). In general, there were two advantages to this form of polygyny. First, it was generally acknowledged that sisters don’t often fight and thus marriage to sisters helped reduce tension in the household. Second, marriage was an economic relationship and this meant that the husband would have economic obligations to only one other family."

 

"To understand polyandry, it must be understood that most Indian societies were egalitarian and that women were not owned by men. Thus, a woman could choose to be married to two or more men. In some instances, the second husband would be the younger brother of her first husband. In many tribes, the younger brother would live with his older brother and sexually share his older brother’s wife as he matured into adulthood."

http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/tag/marriage

[kicotan]

"...In 1998 the University of Wisconsin surveyed more than a thousand societies. Of these just 186 were monogamous. Some 453 had occasional polygyny and in 588 more it was quite common. Just four featured polyandry. Some anthropologists believe that polygamy has been the norm through human history. In 2003, New Scientist magazine suggested that, until 10,000 years ago, most children had been sired by comparatively few men. Variations in DNA, it said, showed that the distribution of X chromosomes suggested that a few men seem to have had greater input into the gene pool than the rest. By contrast most women seemed to get to pass on their genes. Humans, like their primate forefathers, it said, were at least "mildly polygynous"..."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/the-big-question-whats-the-history-of-polygamy-and-how-serious-a-problem-is-it-in-africa-1858858.html

[kicotan]

After reading the mod note on the episode thread, I just wanted to say that I shared the above links merely to give some context and historical background to the polygyny on the Sister Wives show as well as share what I thought were interesting articles to read with others 

It was not and is not my intent to discuss any other religion's polygamy or polygyny.

[kicotan]

I came across this interview from NPR with Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Laurel Thatcher Ulrich who states that for Mormon women living in 19th century Utah, "plural marriages" were empowering in complicated ways.  For example, in other states during Joseph Smith's time, when a woman married, she became civilly "dead" in that she had no say over her property or money, but had to have her father or husband petition the court on her behalf, nor could she divorce for any other reason than adultery.

"...ULRICH: And men did that more easily than women. But bigamy was pretty common in the 19th century. What's interesting about the Mormons is they sanctified new relationships for women who had fled abusive or alcoholic husbands. A number of these married both monogamously and polygamous among the Latter-day Saints. And they were welcomed into the community and not stigmatized.

One woman said that when Joseph Smith married her, even though she was legally married to somebody in South Carolina - you know, it was a long ways away - it was like receiving golden apples in baskets of silver. That is, she was not an outcast woman. She was a woman who had made her own choice and had left a bad situation, and now she was going to enter a relationship with a man she could admire..."

https://www.npr.org/2017/01/17/510246850/how-mormon-polygamy-in-the-19th-century-fueled-womens-activism

Edited March 22, 2018 by kicotan

[kicotan]

"Kody says their faith “recommends” plural marriage?? I hadn’t heard that before. So does that mean he DOESNT need three wives to get his own planet? And Meri won’t go to hell if she decides to move on to a happier situation?"

Brought this over here from the episode thread~

It is my understanding that the Brown's basis for their polygamist lifestyle is their religious/spiritual faith in that they practice the original form of Mormonism before the official LDS church denounced polygamy so that the federal government wouldn't confiscate their real estate, not recognize them as a church anymore and stop prosecuting them for breaking the law of the land.

Im not sure how that works as far as Kody getting his own planet, but Mormons may divorce, repent, be forgiven and move on to marry someone else, without damnation to hell.

From the official LDS site:

"If, instead of resorting to divorce, each individual will seek the comfort and well-being of his or her spouse, couples will grow in love and unity.  The gospel of Jesus Christ—including repentance, forgiveness, integrity, and love—provides the remedy for conflict in marriage.

Those who have caused a divorce through their own poor choices can repent and be forgiven. Those whose marriages have failed because of what others have done can receive strength and comfort from the Lord, who promised: ”Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. … For my yoke is easy, and my burden light” (Matthew 11:28, 30)."

Edited March 26, 2018 by kicotan
Adding some info

[B3cky50]

So I saw on the news today that St. George, Utah is the #1 fastest growing city in the country. And of course I only know of that city because of this show. So I have to wonder - what makes it the fastest growing city? No offense to Utah dwellers, but what would draw people to that area in the middle of the country away from big cities or the coast? 

The only thing I could logically assume is the polygamy. Would that influence the numbers? 

[suomi]

Cost ol living in Utah is lower when compared to many areas. Housing costs less, taxes are lower. My dad sold his home and moved to Utah from SoCal in '84 when he retired early. He paid cash for a lot more house for a lot less money, paid cash for a new vehicle and had 100K left over. 

As for SG in particular, a desert has its advantages and its own type of beauty. It's a lot of wide-open nothing much to see except sand and rocks and buttes and mesas. Drought tolerant landscaping is practical and popular so there are few lawns to feed, water and mow. We get below-freezing temperatures but it rarely snows. We are close enough to Vegas and SoCal that it's convenient and far enough from Vegas and SoCal that our crime rate is low. Utah is a big-time outdoors state and SG is on the way to or from a lot of recreational areas; there are five national parks in Utah. 

So, yeah, it's a pretty shitty place. Don't move here. 

I think Sister Wives is a good example of how TV/popular culture warps our perceptions and normalizes what ought to be considered questionable behavior. 

[sharkerbaby]

6 hours ago, suomi said:

Cost ol living in Utah is lower when compared to many areas. Housing costs less, taxes are lower. My dad sold his home and moved to Utah from SoCal in '84 when he retired early. He paid cash for a lot more house for a lot less money, paid cash for a new vehicle and had 100K left over. 

As for SG in particular, a desert has its advantages and its own type of beauty. It's a lot of wide-open nothing much to see except sand and rocks and buttes and mesas. Drought tolerant landscaping is practical and popular so there are few lawns to feed, water and mow. We get below-freezing temperatures but it rarely snows. We are close enough to Vegas and SoCal that it's convenient and far enough from Vegas and SoCal that our crime rate is low. Utah is a big-time outdoors state and SG is on the way to or from a lot of recreational areas; there are five national parks in Utah. 

So, yeah, it's a pretty shitty place. Don't move here. 

I think Sister Wives is a good example of how TV/popular culture warps our perceptions and normalizes what ought to be considered questionable behavior. 

 

Sounds heavenly to me.  I'm planning my exit from the big city i currently live near.  Utah, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Missouri are on my short list.  Big Cities and the coasts are actually significant detractors in my book.

Edited March 27, 2018 by sharkerbaby

[kicotan]

"Meri will never be happy because she wants two things that are mutually exclusive: to be in a plural marriage, and to have a fulfilling, loving, secure relationship.   Plural marriage is only "successful" in communities that do not value women, and do not place any importance in women's personal happiness."

I disagree with the blanket statement that the two are mutually exclusive.  I have witnessed personally, non-Mormon forms of polygamous relationships that were healthy and happy.  Being monogamous does not necessarily guarantee marital bliss.

"Meri, you can't be a modern, fulfilled, respected and happy woman AND be a plural wife. If you choose to stay, you need to give up the illusion that you will ever be happy or have "a place"  in the family or with Kody. NOT going to happen, it can't. A man can not be a true partner or truly care about a woman's happiness if he is not 100% invested in her. Which...not possible when you have other wives."

Again, I disagree with the blanket statement that monogamy is the ONLY way to be fulfilled, respected and happy as a woman.  Especially the "modern" part.  Modern women are choosing and shaping their relationships to suit themselves more now than ever before.  If being in a polygamous relationship is their choice, they shouldn't be chastised for not choosing monogamy.

"Choose yourself, and leave Kody, but that means you have to face the fact that your religion is bad for you. You're not on the compound, you don't need Kody for money or safety.  Letting go of the idea that plural marriage "makes you better" is the first step. Stop competing with other women for a crumb of a meaningful connection with a man who only cares about himself."

There are plenty of religions that put stock in the idea that suffering is part of what one goes through in order to be right in the eyes of Their God.  Some seek it out, as penance or as a way of being closer to their spiritual self.  Arguably, many religions can be seen as "bad for you", if your goal is to pursue only your personal desires.

I'm not a polygamist~I couldn't do it, even for blessings from my Creator~but I disagree that polygyny is, in and of itself, the basis for Meri's awkward position in relation to her husband and sister-wives or any more detrimental than monogamy as a choice for women.

Edited March 28, 2018 by kicotan

[SuzieQ]

I haven't read every post in this thread but have always been amused by the tag line "Love should be multiplied, not divided"  Isn't dividing his "love" exactly what Kody does?  The rare times that I watch this show live as opposed to DVR'd and can't fast forward through the opening credits, I burst out laughing every time I hear it.

Meri is seriously not cut out for this lifestyle but I think Janelle enjoys not having to deal with Kody 7 nights a week..

[Pickleinthemiddle]

46 minutes ago, kicotan said:

"Meri will never be happy because she wants two things that are mutually exclusive: to be in a plural marriage, and to have a fulfilling, loving, secure relationship.   Plural marriage is only "successful" in communities that do not value women, and do not place any importance in women's personal happiness."

I disagree with the blanket statement that the two are mutually exclusive.  I have witnessed personally, non-Mormon forms of polygamous relationships that were healthy and happy.  Being monogamous does not necessarily guarantee marital bliss.

"Meri, you can't be a modern, fulfilled, respected and happy woman AND be a plural wife. If you choose to stay, you need to give up the illusion that you will ever be happy or have "a place"  in the family or with Kody. NOT going to happen, it can't. A man can not be a true partner or truly care about a woman's happiness if he is not 100% invested in her. Which...not possible when you have other wives."

Again, I disagree with the blanket statement that monogamy is the ONLY way to be fulfilled, respected and happy as a woman.  Especially the "modern" part.  Modern women are choosing and shaping their relationships to suit themselves more now than ever before.  If being in a polygamous relationship is their choice, they shouldn't be chastised for not choosing monogamy.

"Choose yourself, and leave Kody, but that means you have to face the fact that your religion is bad for you. You're not on the compound, you don't need Kody for money or safety.  Letting go of the idea that plural marriage "makes you better" is the first step. Stop competing with other women for a crumb of a meaningful connection with a man who only cares about himself."

There are plenty of religions that put stock in the idea that suffering is part of what one goes through in order to be right in the eyes of Their God.  Some seek it out, as penance or as a way of being closer to their spiritual self.  Arguably, many religions can be seen as "bad for you", if your goal is to pursue only your personal desires.

I'm not a polygamist~I couldn't do it, even for blessings from my Creator~but I disagree that polygyny is, in and of itself, the basis for Meri's awkward position in relation to her husband and sister-wives or any more detrimental than monogamy as a choice for women.

I think I could have been happy as a plural wife.  I don't want a man full time.  As long as I had enough money to enjoy the things I like to do, travel and my children didn't get treated any differently than the other children.  I'm not the jealous type.  But don't think I could do it if I had to stay home all the time.  I have always felt Meri was the least suited of these women to be a sister wife.  Christine expected it, Janelle didn't know about it but her faith drew her to it and Robyn probably expected to eventually be a sister wife.  

On 3/26/2018 at 9:31 PM, B3cky50 said:

So I saw on the news today that St. George, Utah is the #1 fastest growing city in the country. And of course I only know of that city because of this show. So I have to wonder - what makes it the fastest growing city? No offense to Utah dwellers, but what would draw people to that area in the middle of the country away from big cities or the coast? 

The only thing I could logically assume is the polygamy. Would that influence the numbers? 

It's about a two hour drive from Las Vegas.  When your from Texas  two hours is nothing.  I have been to St. George it is a nice place, but very dry and hot in the summer.  Close to some National parks.  It is a growing community with some natural beauty.

[kicotan]

1 hour ago, Pickleinthemiddle said:

I think I could have been happy as a plural wife.  I don't want a man full time.  As long as I had enough money to enjoy the things I like to do, travel and my children didn't get treated any differently than the other children.  I'm not the jealous type.  But don't think I could do it if I had to stay home all the time.  I have always felt Meri was the least suited of these women to be a sister wife.  Christine expected it, Janelle didn't know about it but her faith drew her to it and Robyn probably expected to eventually be a sister wife.

I think there are a few who feel the same.  Personally, I'm waaaaaaay too monogamy-wired and I have like 1 female friend I'm not related to.  I've never gotten along with women in general and I've an idea it has to do with my lack of normal socialization as a child since I was the redhead that got bullied in school.  The idea of sharing one man might be do-able, but having to be with the sister wives would be repulsive.

I've been vocally accepting up front of my spouse having other lovers if he so chooses for the last 25 years, as long as a I don't have to be a part of it.  I really don't care if he wants to be involved with someone else, I just couldn't take having her/him involved in MY life.  The first one thought I only said it because I was stepping out on him(I wasn't).  My current husband would but only if I was involved(yuck) so in 15 years he's been monogamous with me.

I think all of the Brown's choose polygyny to be "right" in their spiritual faith. Sometimes folks believe the more they suffer for their faith, the greater their reward when all is said and done.  The majority of their show is obviously scripted for ratings and they've sold their souls for the income and exposure so I don't put too much stock in any of their storylines being as extreme as they are portrayed to be on the show, but I imagine how they handle the pearl clutching and hand wringing and jealousy is just part and parcel for their admission to their chosen afterlife.

Edited March 28, 2018 by kicotan

[kicotan]

2 hours ago, SuzieQ said:

Meri is seriously not cut out for this lifestyle but I think Janelle enjoys not having to deal with Kody 7 nights a week..

I've come across quite a few women who gladly accept that their husband isn't doting on them every night, even if it means looking the other way when he engages in affairs.  They've got the house, the kids, the money~and he's an asshole anyway, so three cheers for monogamy!!! Lol!

[SongbirdHollow]

But if you have to cut off interaction with other wives to live polygamy happily, you're just sticking your head in the sand. Not healthy in my opinion.

I'm sure it is excruciating to watch their sister wives interact with Kody on tv when they are told to stuff their fillins.

[Roslyn]

I suspect that my fascination with polygamy in general comes from the fact that in my own life/marriage...I have a lot in common with the sister wives.  I do not have a full time husband, I have a weekend husband. When my daughter was around a year old my husband graduated from his HVAC tech school and walked right into a job that he had to travel to work.  My daughter just turned 22, so for more than 20 years he has traveled Monday through Friday, some weekends as well.  I was a Home Mom for quite awhile before returning to work (professional Baker/cake decorator) when she was in elementary school, eventually returning to full time work.

I have a husband on most weekends and a few weeks a year.  I run things on my own Monday morning through Friday afternoon.  His Sunday is mostly paperwork, packing and making arrangements for the following weeks work schedule, so he really is checked out most of that day.  I handled the household 100%, the kids, the pets, the bills, the yard work for years, and years.  A few years ago I had to stop working and I have limited energy for heavy work, so he is now helping me more on the weekends than he used to.

Lots of the guys he works with have issues in their marriage because their wives can't handle them not being there every night.  Their wives can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that the paycheck isn't 100% theirs, that a chunk of it is expense money that has to go to paying the travel expenses.  Some guys have had their wives put them severely in debt by spending thousands of dollars in a day that was expense money.  My husband and I have worked out a system that works for us.  He is now with a global company and not only drives all over, but flies all over the country as well as international. I keep organized so that anything I need him for is done on a tight schedule, cars are maintained etc and I take care of all money so he just has to worry about work stuff.  It works for us.  There have been PLENTY of times that I have had to deal with large problems like the water pump breaking on Monday morning and no running water for that week.  Cars having issues, furnace issues (tho one of his workmates came over and fixed it for me), injuries and illnesses.  Bears ripping off the chicken coop roof, groundhogs needing dispatched (I'm pretty good with a rifle these days.)

I have a personality that I'm okay with my own company.  I'm used to this life and the rhythm of it. I have an inkling that Janelle is very much like this and she is okay with the whole polygamy thing because she thought about it...and chose it, knowing full well what it would entail.  She's fine not having him around all the time.  Just watching Kody on the show I think that he would be over the top and too intense of a guy to have around all the time.  He demands his way, always "having fun" and his opinion rules...if not he sulks like an insolent child.  I also think that Janelle enjoyed work, and a large issue she might have is she misses working.  She lucked out with Christine because she is very clear that she wants the kids and the chaos of kids and lots of them.  Janelle prefers not doing housework and not doing kids stuff so her and Christine got along just fine with their arrangement.

I know what it is like to need to talk about the kids, to need to talk, to need a second parent, to just want the company of my husband and he isn't there.  The evening phone call is filled with him bitching about work and I have to suck up whatever is going on at home because his plate is full. If his hours dip (which happens in construction based jobs) and the money coming in is less...I have to make ends meet, and be prepared for any issues that might suddenly pop up.  The big big difference is that he is working, not bouncing from bed to bed with other wives and other children.  Honestly I don't know how the average man does that successfully.  My husband can barely keep his work stuff straight and I don't hit him with anything too big too fast at home.  I really can't imagine how a man can keep the personalities of three or more wives straight, the various relationship dynamics...the money....the kids.  Which is why it so often happens that kids are raised with little father interaction and wives fight like caged hens with limited scratch.  Or worse....this "lifestyle" just breeds abusers and rewards power hungry, greedy horndogs. 

[SuzieQ]

50 minutes ago, Roslyn said:

I suspect that my fascination with polygamy in general comes from the fact that in my own life/marriage...I have a lot in common with the sister wives.  I do not have a full time husband, I have a weekend husband.

I'm so jealous! LOL! My hubby has been working from home 3-4 days a week and he makes me crazy!

[Gothish520]

@kicotan and @Roslyn, I just have to say that I could never deal with polygamy, but neither could I deal with the relationships that you have described. No judgement (to each their own, absolutely), just my personal feelings on the lifestyles you've both presented.

I get needing/wanting down time, certainly. My husband has a four day work week, second shift job, but those days are minimum 11-12 hours (usually more). So I have four nights a week to myself, and I enjoy my own company and doing my own thing. But, my husband is only in the next town, and we have three days a week together, and several weeks of vacation time. Plus, we have no children and no pets - our time with each other is our own. I guess I am really spoiled!

There's not a shot in hell that either of us would be ok with the other having any type of relationship with someone else. We are both committed to monogamy. Polygamy wouldn't work, neither would any type of open relationship on either of our parts. 

On paper, the plus sides to polygamy are having time to yourself, not having a man underfoot all the time, having help with the family, and built-in best friends - the biggest problem I see (besides the inevitable jealousy) is that those built-in friendships almost never actually exist. As has been mentioned, Janelle enjoys her autonomy. Christine enjoys the big family, being the Mother Hen to all these great kids. It seems like Robyn really wanted (and still wants) the "best friends" sister-wife relationships. I'm still not sure what Meri was hoping to get from living polygamy.

[Roslyn]

1 hour ago, Gothish520 said:

@kicotan and @Roslyn, I just have to say that I could never deal with polygamy, but neither could I deal with the relationships that you have described. No judgement (to each their own, absolutely), just my personal feelings on the lifestyles you've both presented.

I'm still not sure what Meri was hoping to get from living polygamy.

My schedule has taken years to iron out.  But we both understood our roles as well.  It has had lots of potholes along the way.  When Meri and Kody were discussing how they were able to brush their marriage issues aside because of the polygamy and large family it really hit home with me.  There was a very large chunk of time when my kids were teens when my husband and I hit a hard hole and he was very checked out.  I think it went on for so long simply because Monday morning comes along and he is out the door at 5:30am and gone.  My focus goes to the kids schedules and what needs to be done.  By the time the next weekend rolls around you really don't bother bringing up shit from the past and it just builds up and builds up.  My son is just about to turn 26 and works full time.  He had a really bad roommate situation and moved back in the house, my daughter is away at Uni, so my husband and I are now on the cusp of learning how to be just us.  It's just another shift in the life road.  But I can say that a lot of couples wouldn't be able to live the marriage that we have.  It's been 27 years for us this year. :)

...As for your thought on Meri....I suspect she simply agreed to polygamy for no other reason than she wanted the man.  She agreed to keep him because he was very open about his future within that lifestyle.

 

1 hour ago, SuzieQ said:

I'm so jealous! LOL! My hubby has been working from home 3-4 days a week and he makes me crazy!

lolol

I always tell people be careful what you wish for when they tell me how lucky I am to have hubbie gone.  He takes his vacation days lined up with paid holidays to stretch them.  One year Christmas and New Years lined up perfectly that he was home for a full 2 weeks.  Both of us were a little leery about him being home for so long.  I asked him ""So...how many days until you are burying me in the back yard?"" and he replied...""I don't know...how many days before you poison me?""  (we both have a dark humor...)

Edited March 28, 2018 by Roslyn

[tabloidlover]

3 hours ago, Roslyn said:

  I really can't imagine how a man can keep the personalities of three or more wives straight, the various relationship dynamics...the money....the kids.  Which is why it so often happens that kids are raised with little father interaction and wives fight like caged hens with limited scratch.  Or worse....this "lifestyle" just breeds abusers and rewards power hungry, greedy horndogs. 

I don't believe Kody's relationships with his wives are that deep.   He's not around long enough to get deep.   As soon as one wife is on his nerves, he moves on to the next.   There is no way that I believe any of his relationships are as deep as a monogamist marriage (yes, there are plenty of exceptions there also).   

[Gothish520]

15 minutes ago, tabloidlover said:

I don't believe Kody's relationships with his wives are that deep.   He's not around long enough to get deep.   As soon as one wife is on his nerves, he moves on to the next.   There is no way that I believe any of his relationships are as deep as a monogamist marriage (yes, there are plenty of exceptions there also).   

That is an interesting take, and entirely possible. I wonder how Kody truly feels about each of the wives. We know that he has said he and Janelle had a more pragmatic, almost platonic relationship for a long time, that he and Meri were in love when they got married, and that he and Christine had a fun-loving, light-hearted relationship. I also think he was very smitten with Robyn in the beginning. 

[xwordfanatik]

4 hours ago, Roslyn said:

I suspect that my fascination with polygamy in general comes from the fact that in my own life/marriage...I have a lot in common with the sister wives.  I do not have a full time husband, I have a weekend husband. When my daughter was around a year old my husband graduated from his HVAC tech school and walked right into a job that he had to travel to work.  My daughter just turned 22, so for more than 20 years he has traveled Monday through Friday, some weekends as well.  I was a Home Mom for quite awhile before returning to work (professional Baker/cake decorator) when she was in elementary school, eventually returning to full time work.

I have a husband on most weekends and a few weeks a year.  I run things on my own Monday morning through Friday afternoon.  His Sunday is mostly paperwork, packing and making arrangements for the following weeks work schedule, so he really is checked out most of that day.  I handled the household 100%, the kids, the pets, the bills, the yard work for years, and years.  A few years ago I had to stop working and I have limited energy for heavy work, so he is now helping me more on the weekends than he used to.

Lots of the guys he works with have issues in their marriage because their wives can't handle them not being there every night.  Their wives can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that the paycheck isn't 100% theirs, that a chunk of it is expense money that has to go to paying the travel expenses.  Some guys have had their wives put them severely in debt by spending thousands of dollars in a day that was expense money.  My husband and I have worked out a system that works for us.  He is now with a global company and not only drives all over, but flies all over the country as well as international. I keep organized so that anything I need him for is done on a tight schedule, cars are maintained etc and I take care of all money so he just has to worry about work stuff.  It works for us.  There have been PLENTY of times that I have had to deal with large problems like the water pump breaking on Monday morning and no running water for that week.  Cars having issues, furnace issues (tho one of his workmates came over and fixed it for me), injuries and illnesses.  Bears ripping off the chicken coop roof, groundhogs needing dispatched (I'm pretty good with a rifle these days.)

I have a personality that I'm okay with my own company.  I'm used to this life and the rhythm of it. I have an inkling that Janelle is very much like this and she is okay with the whole polygamy thing because she thought about it...and chose it, knowing full well what it would entail.  She's fine not having him around all the time.  Just watching Kody on the show I think that he would be over the top and too intense of a guy to have around all the time.  He demands his way, always "having fun" and his opinion rules...if not he sulks like an insolent child.  I also think that Janelle enjoyed work, and a large issue she might have is she misses working.  She lucked out with Christine because she is very clear that she wants the kids and the chaos of kids and lots of them.  Janelle prefers not doing housework and not doing kids stuff so her and Christine got along just fine with their arrangement.

I know what it is like to need to talk about the kids, to need to talk, to need a second parent, to just want the company of my husband and he isn't there.  The evening phone call is filled with him bitching about work and I have to suck up whatever is going on at home because his plate is full. If his hours dip (which happens in construction based jobs) and the money coming in is less...I have to make ends meet, and be prepared for any issues that might suddenly pop up.  The big big difference is that he is working, not bouncing from bed to bed with other wives and other children.  Honestly I don't know how the average man does that successfully.  My husband can barely keep his work stuff straight and I don't hit him with anything too big too fast at home.  I really can't imagine how a man can keep the personalities of three or more wives straight, the various relationship dynamics...the money....the kids.  Which is why it so often happens that kids are raised with little father interaction and wives fight like caged hens with limited scratch.  Or worse....this "lifestyle" just breeds abusers and rewards power hungry, greedy horndogs. 

I love your post.  Mr. Xword and I worked different shifts for over 15 years, and each of us dealt with some situations as single parents, sort of.  I'm an introvert and I'm also very comfortable being alone.  

I'd never be OK sharing my man, just as Mr. X wouldn't want to share me.  I do believe that it's true that Kody is EXHAUSTING to dill with!  Janelle really is the most suited for that, in realizing that she is OK with alone time, and doesn't seem to mind sharing him at all.  For her, it seems to be hunky-dory.  Considering her weight problem, it might be due to having to dill with Meri, and at times, with the other two?  Pure conjecture on my part, of course.

[suomi]

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 4:55 PM, suomi said:

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by suomi
tried to edit, dupe'd instead

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, tabloidlover said:

I don't believe Kody's relationships with his wives are that deep.   He's not around long enough to get deep.   As soon as one wife is on his nerves, he moves on to the next.   There is no way that I believe any of his relationships are as deep as a monogamist marriage (yes, there are plenty of exceptions there also).   

I don't either marriages with Kody only go well as long as the wife is happy, doesn't talk to him about any issues, and plays nice with who ever the favorite is. Talking to Kody about kids, daring to be upset with him for anything he says or does, and he's out the door.                

[kicotan]

9 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

@kicotan and @Roslyn, I just have to say that I could never deal with polygamy, but neither could I deal with the relationships that you have described. No judgement (to each their own, absolutely), just my personal feelings on the lifestyles you've both presented.

Absolutely understand where you are coming from.  I felt similarly until I was 25 and had my third child (in the span of 5 years).  I didn't need to rely on my husband for financial support(good thing because he royally sucked at it) and was able to be a full time stay at home Mom thanks to the support of my family.  I was so busy with the kids It literally didn't matter to me at that point how he wanted to spend his time.  Back then the technology to save my eggs for later wasn't available to me and my doctors had told me to have them now or not have them at all.  I'll readily admit that since he contributed nothing to the marriage but his sperm to fertilize my egg I wasn't a very good wife to him either.  I did not support his decision to be a criminal even if he would have been good at it ( he wasn't) at which point we separated and ultimately divorced.

I spent lots of years as a full time parent to my kids (until they were teenagers) and didn't enter into any marriage/serious relationship until the oldest two were out of the house.  When my current husband entered my life he had never been monogamous and was 11 years my senior, with 3 grown kids of his own.  We've been monogamous 15 years now, so I guess you could say I've converted him? Lol!

[SongbirdHollow]

@Roslyn I hear you but I think what you have is more like a single mom or military wife, not a polygamist marriage. The sharing a husband bit is the difference. Janelle could have married a long haul trucker instead and been even happier. 

[Gothish520]

@kicotan and @Roslyn, thank you for sharing your stories! Very fascinating, and proof that people make lives for themselves in many ways, and sometimes it's not as simple as husband/wife/kids, 9-5 jobs and soccer practices.

I grew up in a very "typical" and loving family, with Mom, Dad, and four of us kids. I'm the oldest. Dad worked a day job, Mom stayed home with us until baby sister started grammar school. I watched my siblings and helped take care of my youngest sister, and I babysat a lot, for our neighbors and my parents' friends. At about age 17, I realized that I didn't want children. I mean, I REALLY didn't want them, and I've never regretted that decision. I was lucky in that I never felt pressure from friends or family, and was never made to feel like there was something wrong with me because I wanted to remain childless. Just one more reason why polygamy wouldn't have worked for me, lol!

I do find the subject very interesting though. Kody and the Browns get so much criticism (some deserved, some debatable), but I have to give them credit for really shining a light on their chosen lifestyle, demystifying it and perhaps removing a bit of stigma. That's not to say that they have made it look good or have made converts out of people, probably the opposite, lol, but still, I feel their story is worth telling. Going public may have harmed them, but it may also have helped them in many ways. I can't help but feel that the show has exposed the wives to a world they rarely dealt with, and helped them to see that non-plygs are not necessarily the enemy. For one example, Christine recently stated that going public has helped her to see that there are good, loving, supportive people from other faiths. Some may see her early behavior that the "outside" world was the enemy as over the top, but when you are raised to believe certain things, it's hard to shake those beliefs unless you are shown how wrong they can be.

I feel like the children may have benefited the most, believe it or not. Now they don't have to hide who they are or where they come from, and though they probably have to answer a lot more questions, I'd like to think that more people are asking out of a genuine curiosity rather than judgement or condemnation. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Gothish520

[Roslyn]

1 hour ago, SongbirdHollow said:

@Roslyn I hear you but I think what you have is more like a single mom or military wife, not a polygamist marriage. The sharing a husband bit is the difference. Janelle could have married a long haul trucker instead and been even happier. 

Oh yes.  I agree that sharing him with another woman is a whole different kettle of fish.  Like I said, I have a lot in common with the sister wives, but just not sharing him with other women and children and that kind of family dynamic.

However.  I have shared my husband, and I still share him. I share him with his game clan.

Christine was trying to explain Meri's possible issues with the whole family gathering thing when she talked about when she and Kody were going through their rough patch she had a hard time with the whole family together.  Seeing Kody happy and content with the other wives and children, and so unhappy with just her was very hurtful and disheartening.  I know exactly how she feels.

I've described the basics of my husband's schedule and I have very limited time with him.  When the kids were small we were focused on them and our relationship really became our whole family dynamic more than anything else.  Those rare times that Grandma took the kids for a weekend or a trip and we actually had alone time were quite precious (as any parent could understand). One thing that my husband had in common with the kids (that I didn't) was their mutual love of video games.  He has played games since Commodore 64 days and we had a home pc when my son was 3 and so my kids were raised right in the beginning of the internet, computer games, playstation 1 etc.  His best friend was a computer guy and he built our first computer and we went online pretty much as soon as it was available in our area.  The three of them played games and it was their thing, although I did become a little obsessed with Spyro the dragon....and they did talk me into playing the 4 way of Crash team racing.  Other than that, video games was something the three of them did.

Fast forward and my husband learned how to refurbish computers and fix them and such and he ended up putting together a PC for each of them and networking our house so that the three could play their computer games against each other.  Then...years later we moved into a house with real internet (dial up until then).  They quickly entered the world of online gaming as a trio and he built better, faster computers to do just that. 

At this time was when we went through that "deep hole" in our relationship.  He turned to the computer games as an escape and I learned what the term "gamer widow" really meant.  I already had very little time with my husband, and when he was at home his time was either fixing something with the computers, talking about games, gaming, more gaming, more computer building, youtube videos that teach you more about computers and on and on. I was working full time and dealing with everything, the resentment built up. 

He quickly found friends online and joined a clan.  The kids as well, and they all played together.  He learned more and more from his clanmates about computers...lots of money goes into these high end rigs...lots. He came home.  He ate, he slept (very little) and he gamed.  He also treated me like shit.

BUT!!!!

He put on those headphones, turned his chair around...went into game and was happy.  He laughed, he joked, he had fun into the wee hours of the night.  He lined up his phone with his friends and they had group chatty texts when they weren't gaming.  He wasn't cheating on me.  He wasn't in a bar, hitting on women or screwing around, but he was gone.  Completely gone, but his body was in that chair.  After those headphones came off....no more laughing, no jokes, nothing nice at all.   He treated me like shit again. 

Everything came to a crashing halt for game time.  Game only online for the best ping.  One ping spike and there was hell to pay.  If I walked to heavy it was too loud in the microphone for the guys, if I watched tv it was too loud in the microphone, if I laughed it was too loud.  I set up a tv in my bedroom and spent my time alone.  TV and knitting or sewing or such.

His clan mates are now good friends.  In his travels for work he has met with all but two of his friends, they are good guys, but it took me a long time to come to grips with it all.  My daughter describes them as her "uncles" because they have been a close part of her growing up and both my kids are kick ass gamers. 

Things have ironed out between us.  We are still a work in progress and I won't ever be the same person I was back then.  I'm a cold cynic through and through.  I have learned to live with the games and computers and I just happen to be sitting at a very high end gaming rig as well.  5 years ago I threw in the towel and joined them.  I'll never be much of a gamer.  I have lots of handicaps as I can't play the games with any sound, but I did join his friends, I've gotten to know them, and I've seen the world from a different perspective with the headphones on.  I have made my own game friends, from all over the world.  There is an amazing diversity of people out there and it's helped open my eyes that lots more people game than just angry teen boys.

AND....I really really think that every marriage therapy session should start with one on one, cat and mouse, first person shooter games.  It's quite therapeutic to jump around a corner and blast him down and just stand there and wait to do it all over again.  Yes...I have a dark sense of humor...

[lookeyloo]

@Roslyn - mr lookeyloo is a gamer too but I call his high end custom computer his electronic mistress. Our deal is I don’t care how much he plays now that he is retired as long as we do things as a couple. I have plenty to keep me occupied so we are both happy with this arrangement. A real life mistress (or another wife) however would be a deal breaker. 

[Roslyn]

8 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

@Roslyn - mr lookeyloo is a gamer too but I call his high end custom computer his electronic mistress. Our deal is I don’t care how much he plays now that he is retired as long as we do things as a couple. I have plenty to keep me occupied so we are both happy with this arrangement. A real life mistress (or another wife) however would be a deal breaker. 

Yes. In the past years since I have also started gaming off and on I have learned a few things too.  It's about balance, and he has found a much better balance with gaming and home life.  I also have learned to communicate MUCH better on his level.  Gaming with his friends and learning how to work as a squad in game and communicate with a bunch of guys, who communicate like guys, has taught me a lot about communicating with men in general.  They really do think differently and process things differently.  It's been good for both of us.

[Sofa Sloth]

This is a post I came across on Facebook that may interest some people, it’s a book from Christine’s Aunt Kristyn, who has appeared earlier seasons vehemently opposing polygamy (most notably the episode at university debate where Christine dramatically hid from her in the bathroom with all her sister wives  😆). 

Looks like she’s giving away her book for free if anyone’s interested? I’m sure it would be an insightful read. 

[xwordfanatik]

I do remember the episode.  Of course, Robyn had to get snotty with Aunt Kristyn, and say, "do not make ME a victim, sweetie!"  

Yeah, I guess it's easy to be a smug bitch when you know you have your plyg man by the balls.  Kristyn had the guts to leave her marriage at age 50, IIRC, and I hope she's been happy since.  

I wonder, is Christine's mom Annie, Kristyn's sister?  

[DakotaJustice]

2 hours ago, Sofa Sloth said:

This is a post I came across on Facebook that may interest some people, it’s a book from Christine’s Aunt Kristyn, who has appeared earlier seasons vehemently opposing polygamy (most notably the episode at university debate where Christine dramatically hid from her in the bathroom with all her sister wives  😆). 

Looks like she’s giving away her book for free if anyone’s interested? I’m sure it would be an insightful read. 

She should just self publish on Kindle and offer as an unlimited or at $1.99 or something. I haven't had physical checks in years!!

[kicotan]

In an effort to find out how Christine and Kristyn (what is with these people and the weird  “Y” substitutions?) I ran across this old hilarious article about Owen, Kristyn’s father:

“...Unlike the overtaxed Islamists of the United Kingdom, Owen Allred did not believe in legalizing polygamy. He fretted that it would then be practiced more carelessly—as legal, monogamous marriage is—and its holiness would be diminished. His detractors said he'd figured out that, like bootleg hooch, it's more profitable outside the law. As things stood, Allred claimed sole authority to bless polygamous unions, and you had to agree to tithe your income to him before he'd give you the nod.

"It takes twice as good a man to have two wives as it does to have one," Allred liked to say. On another Valentine's Day, in 2001, he took more than a hundred polygamists to the state legislature for the biggest public hearing on the subject in Utah's history. "The man who wants several women to be his sexual partners," Allred said, "can have children by them, and the state will support those children. He remains free of any legal accusation—until he marries more than one wife. Marry them, and he becomes a criminal."...”

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/05/the-marrying-kind/303925/

Edited October 28, 2019 by kicotan
Spellcheck

[kicotan]

12 hours ago, xwordfanatik said:

I wonder, is Christine's mom Annie, Kristyn's sister?  

Christine's father is Rex Clark Allred. Christine's paternal grandfather, Rulon Allred, was the head of the AUB, had several wives and children, and was apparently murdered by directives from Ervil LeBaron who interestingly enough is Christine's mother's uncle. Christine's mother is RuthLeBaron. Owen Allred, Kristyn’s father was the brother of Rulon. So, Ruth's  1/2(?) sister is Kristyn Decker...

Apparently, they are all related...on both sides. LOL

oh and just for fun, here’s Kristyn Decker’s site:

https://www.soundchoicescoalition.org/who-we-are-profiles/2019/6/27/kristyn-decker-founder-amp-president

Edited October 28, 2019 by kicotan

[Teafortwo]

1 hour ago, kicotan said:

Christine's father is Rex Clark Allred. Christine's paternal grandfather, Rulon Allred, was the head of the AUB, had several wives and children, and was apparently murdered by directives from Ervil LeBaron who interestingly enough is Christine's mother's uncle. Christine's mother is RuthLeBaron. Owen Allred, Kristyn’s father was the brother of Rulon. So, Ruth's  1/2(?) sister is Kristyn Decker...

Apparently, they are all related...on both sides. LOL

oh and just for fun, here’s Kristyn Decker’s site:

https://www.soundchoicescoalition.org/who-we-are-profiles/2019/6/27/kristyn-decker-founder-amp-president

I thought Christine's mother was named Annie?

[xwordfanatik]

38 minutes ago, Teafortwo said:

I thought Christine's mother was named Annie?

That's correct.  Christine's aunt is Kristyn.

[kicotan]

1 hour ago, Teafortwo said:

I thought Christine's mother was named Annie?

She probably goes by Annie as short for RuthAnn?