S01.E04: Force of Evil

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Tortured by his captor, Kovacs taps into his Envoy training to survive. Ortega springs a surprise on her family for Día de los Muertos.

[Scarlett45]

I KNEW there was a history between Kovacs sleeve and Kristin. 

 

The scenes with Abuela during the Halloween celebration were well done. The actor was able to convey an elderly woman enjoying the holiday and being excited for her first hit of weed as well as being at peace with not being spun up again. 

I certainly agree that if people don’t want to be spun up again their wishes should be respected, but I cannot see a benevolent god refusing people into heaven because they were spun up against their will. 

I have a question- since Neo Catholics do not believe in additional lives, can Neo Catholic parents opt out of having their babies implanted with stacks, and then at 18 a child can chose to have one implanted? If someone is against additional lives why would they have a stack at all? Seems like a waste of technology. 

[CaptainTightpants]

Halloween Poe is my new favorite Poe!

I'm glad that they broke up the torture scenes with the rest of the story. Even with the way it was shot I still saw more than enough.

So Quell is more developed in this episode. I'm still not sure if her teachings are psycho or not, but she was definitely a fucking ninja! Those were by far my favorite flashback scenes so far. Renee Goldsberry knocked that shit right out of the park, this woman was totally hardcore. 

I'm still not sold on Ortega though. How did she think that bringing dead grandma home to her devout family was going to go over well? She just seems to make bad and impulsive decisions. I'm pretty sure that hijacking that guys body to take dead grandma for a stroll was a wild misuse of police power.

The reveal that Ortega worked with whoever Kovacs is walking around in makes some kind of sense. Previously she has kind of had a crazy ex-wife kind of a vibe. And unless I misunderstood Dimi the decapitated, it looks like this guy was framed for something he didn't do. So another case for Kovacs to look into, along with whoever killed Bancroft. Which seems like a mystery that has been forgotten. 

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

'm still not sold on Ortega though. How did she think that bringing dead grandma home to her devout family was going to go over well? She just seems to make bad and impulsive decisions. I'm pretty sure that hijacking that guys body to take dead grandma for a stroll was a wild misuse of police power.

Yeah, but Abuela in a prison tatted biker sleeve also provided some much needed comic notes to an otherwise overly dark episode—not to mention carefully touching on issues of transgendered bodies in a Brave New World.

The explorations of future evolutions of religious traditions are also thoughtful

[thuganomics85]

Ah, so it turns out Kovacs was kidnapped by Dimitri/Tahmoh Pinkett's twin (who was also played by a "Hey, it's that Canadian Guy!" Michael Eklund), and was put into artificial torture to find out why he was after them.  Oh, and it also turns out that his new skin is some cop named Riker that clearly has a history with Ortega.  No wonder she's been all pissy with him.  Loved watching Kovacs use his Envoy skills to breakout and then go to down on the organization.  Too bad it was mainly off-screen, but I guess they didn't have the budget to watch him go full John Wick on those fools!

Really enjoyed the actor playing the new skin for Ortega's grandmother.  His scenes with Ortega were the most I ever liked her.

Interesting taking a break from any Bancroft character or storyline.

Loved Vernon's "Well, shit, I told him I'd let him live" reaction after Kovacs blew off his captor's head.

[Enero]

Couldn't have cared less about Ortega's scenes and ended up fast-forwarding past them except when she was with Kovac. God she's annoying as hell. She's just not working for me at. all.

Kovac, gunning down everyone with the out of place Hello Unicorn bright pink backpack firmly on his back was disconcerting. LOL. Why does he carry that around anyway? It looks so out of place.  LOL

On 2/3/2018 at 9:21 PM, CaptainTightpants said:

So Quell is more developed in this episode. I'm still not sure if her teachings are psycho or not, but she was definitely a fucking ninja! Those were by far my favorite flashback scenes so far. Renee Goldsberry knocked that shit right out of the park, this woman was totally hardcore. 

Indeed! And her chemistry with Takeshi/Kovac, both actors, was off.the.charts. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Enero

[Netfoot]

5 hours ago, Enero said:

Why does he carry that around anyway?

He needs a backpack.  It's a backpack.  

[shapeshifter]

On February 4, 2018 at 3:11 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Oh, and it also turns out that his new skin is some cop named Riker that clearly has a history with Ortega.  No wonder she's been all pissy with him.

This is the last episode I've seen, but I'm guessing Ortega has Ryker's stack stashed somewhere in hopes of returning it to his body.

[Bec]

In a world as technologically advanced as this one, couldn't they hack their way into someone's stack to get any info they want, given enough time? I would expect some kind of encryption so you can't just steal information from anyone you walk by on the street, but having to torture someone to get information (even when it's virtual reality) seems about as primitive as banging on a machine to get it to work. They should really be beyond this since they have the tech to make backups of people and the tech to steal information from a backup in progress.

I guess that would be way more boring to watch on screen and way less dramatic, though.

[Enero]

2 hours ago, Bec said:

In a world as technologically advanced as this one, couldn't they hack their way into someone's stack to get any info they want, given enough time? I would expect some kind of encryption so you can't just steal information from anyone you walk by on the street, but having to torture someone to get information (even when it's virtual reality) seems about as primitive as banging on a machine to get it to work. They should really be beyond this since they have the tech to make backups of people and the tech to steal information from a backup in progress.

I guess that would be way more boring to watch on screen and way less dramatic, though.

Good point. Really that’s what I thought they were going to do when Kovac was kidnapped, hack into his stack to find out why he was asking questions about the prostitute or reprogram him to do their bidding. 

That said, perhaps they can do a hack but it’ll take too long to go through the data to get the info they’re  looking for? It could be similar to when John Connor hacked a terminator on TSCC and the data was a jumbled and thus didn’t make much sense at first and took days to make heads or tails of it. Granted they were in a less advanced world. Also, to your point torture is more dramatic on screen and then I’m sure some just enjoy the primitive ways of torturing information out of someone. Dimi certainly seemed to enjoy it. 

[FuzzyBalls]

On 2/3/2018 at 6:33 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I KNEW there was a history between Kovacs sleeve and Kristin. 

 

The scenes with Abuela during the Halloween celebration were well done. The actor was able to convey an elderly woman enjoying the holiday and being excited for her first hit of weed as well as being at peace with not being spun up again. 

I certainly agree that if people don’t want to be spun up again their wishes should be respected, but I cannot see a benevolent god refusing people into heaven because they were spun up against their will. 

I have a question- since Neo Catholics do not believe in additional lives, can Neo Catholic parents opt out of having their babies implanted with stacks, and then at 18 a child can chose to have one implanted? If someone is against additional lives why would they have a stack at all? Seems like a waste of technology. 

 this part confused me.. thought When someone gets a new Sleeve, they would get the "youthfulness" of that sleeve. Yet, when she walks her "grandmother" in the Punker sleeve, she helps him/her like "he's" an old lady.  think it would have been a good opportunity for her to "enjoy" the sleeve and make some penis jokes..   just saying.. 

[Scarlett45]

36 minutes ago, FuzzyBalls said:

 this part confused me.. thought When someone gets a new Sleeve, they would get the "youthfulness" of that sleeve. Yet, when she walks her "grandmother" in the Punker sleeve, she helps him/her like "he's" an old lady.  think it would have been a good opportunity for her to "enjoy" the sleeve and make some penis jokes..   just saying.. 

You do get the physical youthfulness but I thought that was an acting choice. Abuletia did make jokes about peeing standing up during family dinner. 

[megsara]

On 2/6/2018 at 6:22 PM, Scarlett45 said:

You do get the physical youthfulness but I thought that was an acting choice.

In the beginning near the cheese stall the grandmother sort of stumbled or groaned and Ortega said something about "sleeve sickness" but not quite sure what that meant.  

 

On 2/3/2018 at 6:33 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I have a question- since Neo Catholics do not believe in additional lives, can Neo Catholic parents opt out of having their babies implanted with stacks, and then at 18 a child can chose to have one implanted?

At the Alcatraz orientation, that holo-vid mentioned all Protecterate citizens at the age of 1ish get a stack implanted, and if they didn't say that was the law it seemed implied I thought.   

[mledawn]

Re: the stumbling grandmother - they've shown a few times that people are disoriented when they first get to their new sleeve. 

I don't understand the different ways people seem to get into a new sleeve, though. Kovacs was all gel-y and had that thing down his throat, but Ortega just seemed to throw her grandmother's stack into the gangster and off they went.

[Loandbehold]

9 hours ago, mledawn said:

Re: the stumbling grandmother - they've shown a few times that people are disoriented when they first get to their new sleeve. 

I don't understand the different ways people seem to get into a new sleeve, though. Kovacs was all gel-y and had that thing down his throat, but Ortega just seemed to throw her grandmother's stack into the gangster and off they went.

That may be why she had "sleeve sickness." This wasn't a sleeve that was prepared to have a new stack. Sort of a thrift store or even found-in-an-alley sleeve.

[MissLucas]

So did Ortega just kill that guy for being an a***** to her in the middle of the precinct and everybody was cool with it? Some fine policing there and not much high-ground to stand on if you ask me.

[CaptainTightpants]

46 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

So did Ortega just kill that guy for being an a***** to her in the middle of the precinct and everybody was cool with it? Some fine policing there and not much high-ground to stand on if you ask me.

I'm pretty sure she just tasered him and knocked him out. Because she then demands that the uniforms take him down to holding. (And he is referenced again in a later episode).

I was more appalled that she then took the guys body and downloaded her grandma into it for a family dinner. I have to think that must be wildly illegal! 

Although the actor did a wonderful job of portraying abuela-in-a-gangbanger-sleeve.

[MissLucas]

Well, that makes more sense. Especially with regards to the Kovacs sleeve reveal. Thanks!

!

[AngelKitty]

So then the stack Ortega was holding when she gave her confession was her grandmother's? I wonder just how she switched those things?

I was going to take a nap, but now I have to watch the next episode. Curse you, Netflix.

[CaptainTightpants]

Just now, AngelKitty said:

So then the stack Ortega was holding when she gave her confession was her grandmother's? I wonder just how she switched those things?

I was going to take a nap, but now I have to watch the next episode. Curse you, Netflix.

I think her grandma was digitally stored on the internet, rather than just hanging around in a stack. Although they never did say if I recall correctly.

The stack seems only to be necessary to record a person while they are living in a body. Kovacs was beamed to various planets and downloaded into various bodies when he was a soldier. And that had to be done without a stack because they can't just mail special forces around the universe by letterpost. So I think you can beam any person into any body so long as there is a digital copy somewhere. 

The stack that Ortega was holding in the confessional was one that she had just cut out of the dead girl that she was hiding in the morgue if I remember the scene correctly.

[MisterGlass]

I didn't enjoy this.  It was torture for the sake of torture with no moral or emotional stakes.

[Danny Franks]

Yeah, this episode didn't do it for me. Torture porn is not my thing. I basically zoned out whenever Kovacs was on screen, but still got the gist of Quellcrist teaching him how to withstand virtual torture.

Unfortunately, as a result of zoning out, I never understood why Ortega put her grandmother into the thug's sleeve, or what the point of it was.

However, the pay off, with Kovacs freeing himself and just slaughtering the whole fucking clinic in vengeance was pretty awesome. The first time, really, that we've seen him be the merciless killer that he's been painted to be. 

I knew that Kovacs' sleeve was Ortega's ex, having read the book. At least now it's clear to people why she's so weird around him. Seeming to hate him while still being really concerned about his well-being. If he damages that sleeve, Riker might not be able to take it back, should he get out of lock up. This is the first time in the show we've seen anyone who's not one of those neo-Catholics express concern for the phyiscal body.

[Loandbehold]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Unfortunately, as a result of zoning out, I never understood why Ortega put her grandmother into the thug's sleeve, or what the point of it was.

It was the Day of the Dead festival. She was taking her grandmother to visit the family and that was the only body she had access to on short notice. Well, she did after he was knocked out.

[benteen]

On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 4:27 PM, MisterGlass said:

I didn't enjoy this.  It was torture for the sake of torture with no moral or emotional stakes.

I did enjoy the episode but agree that it was torture porn.  Shows revel in torture nowadays.

[Clanstarling]

On 2/5/2018 at 2:34 PM, shapeshifter said:

This is the last episode I've seen, but I'm guessing Ortega has Ryker's stack stashed somewhere in hopes of returning it to his body.

I'm wondering if it was the one she stole from the girl who fell from the sky. She's been WAY too interested in that case. 

On 2/5/2018 at 10:40 PM, Bec said:

In a world as technologically advanced as this one, couldn't they hack their way into someone's stack to get any info they want, given enough time? I would expect some kind of encryption so you can't just steal information from anyone you walk by on the street, but having to torture someone to get information (even when it's virtual reality) seems about as primitive as banging on a machine to get it to work. They should really be beyond this since they have the tech to make backups of people and the tech to steal information from a backup in progress.h.

Valid point - though I think there are those who just love to torture. So this technology lets them do it over and over again. 

On 2/11/2018 at 11:10 AM, AngelKitty said:

So then the stack Ortega was holding when she gave her confession was her grandmother's? I wonder just how she switched those things?

I think the one she was holding in confession was the one she took from the girl's body, and that it was Ryker's. Which, come to think of it, also fits with her hiding the body of the girl, as well as her obsession with that case.

[Latverian Diplomat]

Maybe I missed something, but what was the deal with the blonde on the table getting dissected?

It was his contact from Jack Off, right, Alice?

I mean dramatically it serves the purpose of letting Kovacs know she's dead and that she was treated like meat even in death, but what was the purpose of what they were doing in the context of the clinic

Tissue and organ harvesting has to be done in a very precise way at the very time of death, not what they were doing; why can't a society that can grow humans in a  vat also grow donor organs that way? and lastly why would they be doing that stuff in the interrogation room.

To me, it seemed like a poorly thought out set up to help fuel Kovacs' rampage.

[tennisgurl]

I so knew that Ortega had some history with Kovacs`s sleeve, and that was why she was so obsessed with him, and touchy about her moms issues with sleeves. Alright, that isn't the only reason she gets annoyed with her mom, but I am sure it plays a part. He was probably her boyfriend or at least a friend or something. 

The torture stuff was nasty, but it could have been worse. Compared to other stuff I've seen, this was downright tasteful. And it lead to Kovacs finally showing off his badass credentials by killing that whole torture facility (and showing some solid bluffing skills), and we got more backstory on his time with his freedom fighters/terrorists, depending on who you ask. 

Loved Ortega and her grandma, in the body of the skinhead! This was a really good way to play with the ideas of sleeves, and taking something old and traditional like Dia de Los Muertos, and giving it a sci fi twist (dead relatives can be put in an unconscious body to come visit on the day of the dead) while also adding some good character moments for Ortega, which she REALLY needs. As of now, she is the least interesting main character, but I liked her scenes with her grandma, and some of the conflicts with her and her family have potential. I can see how religion would have issues with using science to create eternal life by essentially hijacking other bodies, and how that would be controversial, even after becoming a common part of life. I like how its being used so far. 

[wanderingstar]

I am on the fourth episode, and just...why is this show so godawful? I keep hearing it gets better, but all I can think is, why can't it just be good from the start?

One of my good friends watched, and I am only watching so I can talk about it with her. But oy, watching this feels like a chore.

[candle96]

I hate to be that person, but I have a lot of logistical questions about the sleeves. Where are these bodies coming from? Are they from dead people (which is what I thought was the case in the beginning with the protests "the dead have rights,"), but they can also be from people who are still alive, a la the the skinhead/abuela. It seems like if you're convicted of a crime, your sentence is that your body is given to someone else?

But if they're able to put people's stacks into dead bodies, that means they have a way of bringing bodies back to life. So why not, when possible, just give people back their original bodies? (unless they want a younger one)

Did Ryker die or was he punished in some capacity? When Kovacs/Ryker woke up in the first episode, it looked like his body had bullet holes. I assume Kristin is holding onto his stack, but this is the first time we've seen someone more interested in the physical body than the stack itself, which totally makes sense to me, from my 2018 mindset.

[Netfoot]

4 minutes ago, candle96 said:

if you're convicted of a crime, your sentence is that your body is given to someone else?

More like you are sentenced to being electronically incarcerated, which leaves your body/sleeve vacant for use by someone else.

8 minutes ago, candle96 said:

So why not, when possible, just give people back their original bodies?

Because what ever killed you (age, motor vehicular accident, arson, etc) will probably have destroyed your original body or otherwise made it unsuitable for re-sleeving.  If you die of old age, there is no point being re-sleeved in the same old sick body which just died, because it will only die again soon.

10 minutes ago, candle96 said:

Did Ryker die or was he punished in some capacity?

Wasn't he convicted of something?  (My Alzheimer's is kicking in...)

[shrewd.buddha]

We enjoy sci-fi noir, ala  Blade Runner - and are enjoying this series and look forward to watching the rest of the episodes.
...But having said that, this episode had a lot things I had problems with ..

• I'm not buying that young children would instantly be relaxed with seeing their abuela (grandmother) in a tattooed, pierced  roughneck  who probably smelled like urine and alcohol. Are people in this future readily able to accept people based on their inner personalities? (which would not be apparent until they speak)
• An entire episode dedicated to torture. Ugh. This actually made the story feel dated to me, because hasn't it been accepted that torture does not provide reliable information? (regardless of the inhumanity of it)
• Kovacs`s workplace mass shooting/slaughter didn't earn any sympathy points for his character from me. 
• Quell and the outdoor Envoy training camp makes the group look like paramilitary mercenaries, not freedom fighters. And Quell comes off as overzealous and radicalized. Maybe we should be getting more background about something good they are trying to accomplish. 

One of the things I do like about the series is the inclusion of different languages. So what if there needs to be some subtitles - - it is a nice reality check that not everyone speaks English. But I also enjoy when people speak English that still needs subtitles - yay,  Scotland. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by shrewd.buddha