ApathyMonger January 28, 2018 Share January 28, 2018 Quote Howard and his counterpart must work together; Baldwin comes face to face with her past; Emily, from the other side, attempts to make sense of her orders. Link to comment
shapeshifter January 28, 2018 Share January 28, 2018 11 hours ago, ApathyMonger said: Emily, from the other side, attempts to make sense of her orders And @shapeshifter, from this side, also tries to make sense of Emily's orders. 1 8 Link to comment
wilnil January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 Yeah, I'm going to be rewatching this one. Lot of little details I think I saw that might be clues. As far as Emily goes, someone wants her (believe they said ex-husband) Howard dead and the death pinned on her, so they recruited her Bulgarian contractors to do the job and faked the "rendition" orders to her to put her at the scene. Sounds like she's had a history of substance abuse to boot. Interesting that she's in "Housekeeping," maybe as the counterpart to what Aldrich does on Meek Howard's side? They implied in Episode 1 that comatose Emily also worked for the Office of Interchange; I wonder in which section. One casting hiccup: No way are Baldwin/Nadia and violinist Nadia 39-40, as they'd have to be to have a shared past until age 9 or 10. (And imdb says the actress is 27.) 4 Link to comment
wanderingstar January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 (edited) Yay to seeing Stephen Rea. He's just as wonderful as ever. I continue to marvel at JK Simmons' performance as both Howard and Prime. Baldwin/Nadia's story underwhelmed me, but the actress did a good job with the scenes. Aldrich is just going to have that sour face the entire series, isn't he? Edited January 29, 2018 by Gillian Rosh 3 Link to comment
mjc570 January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 I still like the show, but I thought the writing wasn’t really up to the level of the previous episode. For example, that was some clunky way of Nadia just happening to mention the old family hideaway. Speaking of the Nadias - it’s a huge leap from passively letting your abusive dad die to becoming an assasin I just don’t get the whole concept of knowing one is knowing the other - I realize it’s pretty much the only way to justify both Howard’s , but it makes no sense unless the characters are really old and have a substantial shared history. Yes, both Howard’ s like the same shirt, but so what? I assume they will kind of both move to the middle (or at least, meek Howard will toughen up) but that better start soon. Otherwise, having meek howard tag along is useless. I really hope they (sooner rather than later) explain what went wrong in prime Howard’s worLd. Finally, this episode really needed harry Lloyd. He brings some humor. 3 Link to comment
numbnut January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, mjc570 said: I still like the show, but I thought the writing wasn’t really up to the level of the previous episode. I also thought that this ep was clunkier than the pilot. The action was less believable. Three or four cops have the drop on the assassin and she turns and shoots them all? Try doing that to cops in NYC and you'll be Swiss cheese. I got lost plot-wise, but I was multitasking so I'll need to watch it again. Edited January 29, 2018 by numbnut 4 Link to comment
shapeshifter January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 (edited) In the last scene in the church, was that Richard Schiff in a wig? I couldn't tell from the whispery voice, but I can't find any other actor of the age of that character listed in IMDb as appearing in the episode, and Richard Schiff is listed as "Aldrich" in this episode—did I miss him in another scene? Anyway, why does Emily call him "Pope"? Is he literally the Pope of that world? Or is she chiding him for being Pope-like? Or is that his name? Thanks, @BetterButter! I see now in Stephen Rea's IMDb page that the possibly clergy character's name is Alexander Pope. 5 hours ago, mjc570 said: the writing wasn’t really up to the level of the previous episode ITA. And also stuff like: 7 hours ago, wilnil said: One casting hiccup: No way are Baldwin/Nadia and violinist Nadia 39-40, as they'd have to be to have a shared past until age 9 or 10. (And imdb says the actress is Yeah, I can forgive a retcon, but please lay down the new rules/canon. And also, what @numbnut said ^^ about the action sequences with Baldwin and her superhero shooting. If they have higher tech guns, maybe we need a mention/explanation. Or maybe this show is going to be like The Matrix? I was a little worried in the pilot that the action stuff was almost like a separate character. Here's hoping the next episode will bounce back to the pilot's level of quality. Edited January 29, 2018 by shapeshifter Link to comment
BetterButter January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 17 minutes ago, shapeshifter said: was that Richard Schiff Stephen Rea 1 Link to comment
Haleth January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 I really enjoyed it but was confused by how Baldwin and Nadia could have shared memories since they were so young. And I had to roll my eyes at how inept the Berlin redshirts police were. Still, the story is intriguing and I'm really curious about what is going on in Prime's world. JKS has me convinced he's a bad ass action hero. 7 Link to comment
Doyounot January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 I really liked this episode they really showcased the two sides similarities and few differences. Nadia was so different but completly the same unfortunately i felt soo bad when i saw she was a cutter. Also showing both of them remembering the flashbacks and all their mannerisms was awesome. The funniest parts to me were all the times badass howard called them out for fucking up calling them amateurs all day. He looked sooo impressed/proud when the other hit kai proctor! It was also funny badass howards ex wife telling personnel to fuck off like he told kai last episode. I wanna know what substance she abused seeing as the cigarettes were "confiscated". The mystery surrounding pope looks like is gonna be epic. Is he playing all sides or what? 2 Link to comment
MrWhyt January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, numbnut said: I also thought that this ep was clunkier than the pilot. The action was less believable. Three or four cops have the drop on the assassin and she turns and shoots them all? Try doing that to cops in NYC and you'll be Swiss cheese. I got lost plot-wise, but I was multitasking so I'll need to watch it again. I suspect European cops are less trigger happy willing to shoot than their american counterparts. Edited January 29, 2018 by MrWhyt 1 4 Link to comment
iMonrey January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 I think I'm getting bored with this. I was really intrigued by the pilot when I watched it last month, but last night I watched it again followed by this new episode, and that two hours was one long slog that seemed to go on forever. Way too many people sitting around talking without saying anything - dialogue constructed to deliberately sound ominous without revealing too much of the plot. I still don't feel like I understand what's going on and that's really annoying. How did this assassin even get into the other world? Is there more than one way to cross between worlds? It looks like they've got that one portal pretty well secured so how are these rogues getting through? A show like this just has way too much world building to do to spend the first two hours on what is essentially a run of the mill "stop the assassin" plot with a twist. I'm not interested in following these people around for another eight episodes as they chase after Baldwin again and again. I'll no doubt check out the next one but I won't be watching 2 in a row again and it really needs to start getting more interesting. 4 Link to comment
clack January 29, 2018 Share January 29, 2018 If the first episode was Le Carre, this one was Ian Fleming, what with the super assassins and everything. 2 Link to comment
Kelda Feegle January 30, 2018 Share January 30, 2018 still not sure why MeekHoward was carted around on their mission not as good as first ep but willing to watch another for sure 3 Link to comment
wilnil January 30, 2018 Share January 30, 2018 3 hours ago, iMonrey said: How did this assassin even get into the other world? Is there more than one way to cross between worlds? It looks like they've got that one portal pretty well secured so how are these rogues getting through? This one puzzled me in the first episode, but then I realized that must have been the purpose of Baldwin getting her hands on the bag containing the other-world documentation and currency in that first scene in the Prime world. She would have had to cross over quickly, before word got back to Office of Interchange security, but she must have had the necessary paperwork in the bag. (The officials at the scene may have even explicitly said so before she stopped playing "frightened bystander" and shot them; I do remember them discussing the bag's contents briefly.) From Howard Prime's description of his job, it sounds like the usual "illegal" crossers are defectors and spies, who'd have legitimate paperwork but hidden intentions. 12 hours ago, Haleth said: I'm really curious about what is going on in Prime's world. It looked like one of the civilians in Prime world was wearing a filter mask, and there was Pope's line about how churches were now depressing places, as we see how many candles the parishioners had lit. I'm guessing that, whether accidentally or deliberately, a disease from Meek Howard's world was spread into Prime world and was much deadlier there. 4 Link to comment
marinw January 30, 2018 Share January 30, 2018 I’m getting a bit bored with this too. So I suppose not everyone under thirty has a double. 3 Link to comment
marinw January 30, 2018 Share January 30, 2018 FWIW I will say that the opening credits are great. 1 Link to comment
iMonrey January 30, 2018 Share January 30, 2018 Quote From Howard Prime's description of his job, it sounds like the usual "illegal" crossers are defectors and spies, who'd have legitimate paperwork but hidden intentions. This raises the question of why anyone crosses back and forth for "legitimate" reasons. What are those reasons? I'd just appreciate more focus on the premise and concept of this show and less of the cloak and dagger that you could find in any mainstream spy/assassin story. 4 Link to comment
zibnchy January 31, 2018 Share January 31, 2018 I realized that I don't really care about the plot. I'm not entirely sure what the plot is. I just want this show to be about Howard and Other Howard. JKS is excellent in this role. I also really like the Emily character but I need her to interact with the Howards. Howard can shoot people and Other Howard can punch people. Also there's no way Nadia was 40. Not even if one suspends disbelief. And honestly, why couldn't they have cast a badass 40 something actress for the role? Why did she need to be a youngster? Casting failure. I'm sticking with this because it's still better than most everything else right now. 4 Link to comment
shapeshifter January 31, 2018 Share January 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, zibnchy said: Also there's no way Nadia was 40. Not even if one suspends disbelief. And honestly, why couldn't they have cast a badass 40 something actress for the role? Why did she need to be a youngster? Casting failure. I'm sticking with this because it's still better than most everything else right now. I guess this early in the show there could still be an explanation for why Nadia/Baldwin were 29 instead of 39. Or maybe there already is. I mean, I suppose they could have been born after The Split. Not everything changed, right? 1 Link to comment
zibnchy January 31, 2018 Share January 31, 2018 30 minutes ago, shapeshifter said: I guess this early in the show there could still be an explanation for why Nadia/Baldwin were 29 instead of 39. Or maybe there already is. I mean, I suppose they could have been born after The Split. Not everything changed, right? But if they were born after the split then they wouldn't be split, right? They have to be the same person who then split because they both take off their shoes a lot. Right? (Seriously, I have no idea what's going on.) I based my comment on Nadia telling Howard that her dad died when she was 10. Then later Baldwin told Nadia that they both witnessed his death, giving the impression that the split happened after that. Honestly JKS is the reason I'm watching. 2 Link to comment
shapeshifter February 1, 2018 Share February 1, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, zibnchy said: But if they were born after the split then they wouldn't be split, right? They have to be the same person who then split because they both take off their shoes a lot. Right? (Seriously, I have no idea what's going on.) I based my comment on Nadia telling Howard that her dad died when she was 10. Then later Baldwin told Nadia that they both witnessed his death, giving the impression that the split happened after that. Honestly JKS is the reason I'm watching. In my fanwank, Nadia and Baldwin were born in their separate universes to parents who were mirrors of each other, practically unaffected by the split. But then I'm used to dealing with disappointment in my own life by imagining that in an alternate universe everything was the same except I left the house ten minutes later the day my car got rear ended, or I did not have sex with my ex husband on the first night we met. Also, I'm willing to do a lot of fanwanking if a show has some redeeming value—like JKS. ETA: And I'm also willing to hold onto hope that this will all make sense in the next episode—or the next—or the next. To a point. Edited February 1, 2018 by shapeshifter 3 Link to comment
wilnil February 1, 2018 Share February 1, 2018 4 hours ago, shapeshifter said: In my fanwank, Nadia and Baldwin were born in their separate universes to parents who were mirrors of each other, practically unaffected by the split. But then I'm used to dealing with disappointment in my own life by imagining that in an alternate universe everything was the same except I left the house ten minutes later the day my car got rear ended, or I did not have sex with my ex husband on the first night we met. Also, I'm willing to do a lot of fanwanking if a show has some redeeming value—like JKS. ETA: And I'm also willing to hold onto hope that this will all make sense in the next episode—or the next—or the next. To a point. I wish they'd left room for a fanwank, but someone in the episode had a line that explicitly said that though they knew nothing about Baldwin's background, they could get some information by looking into violinist Nadia's past, because the split didn't happen until she was 9 or 10. I think what happened is the premise and history of the Baldwin character were set up before they cast the part, then they decided they liked Sara Serraiocco in the role even though she didn't match the age range needed, and then they just hoped we'd temporarily forget that the two worlds diverged 30 years ago, not 20. I am still hopeful that the show will eventually reveal the details we need to make sense of the situation; the interview with the creator that was linked to in the Ep 1 thread sounded like he'd spent a fair amount of effort on working out the backgrounds of the two worlds. Note, though, the interview has a few spoilers in it. Spoiler One possibly useful if mildly spoiler-ish nugget from that interview: While Badass Howard's world is called the "Prime" world, Meek Howard's is known as the "Alpha" world. Maybe that was the first significant split between the worlds -- that they couldn't agree on a world-naming convention? 1 Link to comment
shapeshifter February 1, 2018 Share February 1, 2018 4 hours ago, wilnil said: …because the split didn't happen until she was 9 or 10.… Is it possible they meant "the split" in their personal destinies didn't happen until then?—that is, that the effects of The Split didn't catch up with the Nadia Baldwins until they were ten? This would be not-so-great writing,but I it seems to be the only thing that fits. Link to comment
Haleth February 1, 2018 Share February 1, 2018 Nadia had to split since Baldwin mentions watching her father die too. It would have been too much of a coincidence if there were two separate incidents. 1 Link to comment
shapeshifter February 1, 2018 Share February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Haleth said: Nadia had to split since Baldwin mentions watching her father die too. It would have been too much of a coincidence if there were two separate incidents. --Unless maybe that's what they're going for: That Fate will always try to make a predetermined Destiny occur. I seem to recall quite a few time travel shows dwelling on this point (often just because it is an easy way to deal with grandfather paradoxes etc.), and maybe some alt-universe plots too. 1 Link to comment
wilnil February 1, 2018 Share February 1, 2018 It's plausible that the accumulating differences between the two worlds didn't have any effect on the lives of Nadia and her father on either side until after his death, and then some difference (say, different foster parents) pushed violinist Nadia to take her guilt out on herself while Nadia Prime/Baldwin took it out on everyone else. The only reason I'm leaning toward her just being miscast is that they said they knew nothing about Baldwin except her real name, so they wouldn't know when the two Nadias' lives diverged if it wasn't at the time of the split. 2 Link to comment
shapeshifter February 2, 2018 Share February 2, 2018 9 hours ago, wilnil said: It's plausible that the accumulating differences between the two worlds didn't have any effect on the lives of Nadia and her father on either side until after his death, and then some difference (say, different foster parents) pushed violinist Nadia to take her guilt out on herself while Nadia Prime/Baldwin took it out on everyone else. That's what I was thinking, @wilnil, but you explained it much better. Link to comment
hardy har February 4, 2018 Share February 4, 2018 On 1/31/2018 at 9:01 PM, wilnil said: I wish they'd left room for a fanwank, but someone in the episode had a line that explicitly said that though they knew nothing about Baldwin's background, they could get some information by looking into violinist Nadia's past, because the split didn't happen until she was 9 or 10. I think what happened is the premise and history of the Baldwin character were set up before they cast the part, then they decided they liked Sara Serraiocco in the role even though she didn't match the age range needed, and then they just hoped we'd temporarily forget that the two worlds diverged 30 years ago, not 20. I am still hopeful that the show will eventually reveal the details we need to make sense of the situation; the interview with the creator that was linked to in the Ep 1 thread sounded like he'd spent a fair amount of effort on working out the backgrounds of the two worlds. Note, though, the interview has a few spoilers in it. Reveal hidden contents One possibly useful if mildly spoiler-ish nugget from that interview: While Badass Howard's world is called the "Prime" world, Meek Howard's is known as the "Alpha" world. Maybe that was the first significant split between the worlds -- that they couldn't agree on a world-naming convention? RE: Baldwin/Nadia's age. About half way through, I had to remind myself that my personal rule about any show with parallel universes, alternate timelines or doubles is to wait until the season is over until I really dig into what appear to be plot holes early on in a season. Usually get addressed, in some way, down the line and then I can nitpick. If the creator did indeed spend a lot of time on the 2 worlds then it'd be hard to imagine them even considering an actor in their late 20's to play the part. if it didn't line up. I do have a question though..........Nadia can't be dead, right? Why go through the trouble of a having a scene where Prime Howard asks for something to slip in her drink and a scene where we see him put said thing in her drink, only for her to die by the end of the episode? I mean, we only have Aldrich's word, we never saw her body and the shot was to her shoulder. Link to comment
Bort February 4, 2018 Share February 4, 2018 15 minutes ago, hardy har said: I do have a question though..........Nadia can't be dead, right? Why go through the trouble of a having a scene where Prime Howard asks for something to slip in her drink and a scene where we see him put said thing in her drink, only for her to die by the end of the episode? I mean, we only have Aldrich's word, we never saw her body and the shot was to her shoulder. It looked like a shot to the heart to me. And I think the thing with the roofie was that it enabled Baldwin to drag Nadia all over the place without her putting up much of a fight. Link to comment
wilnil February 4, 2018 Share February 4, 2018 2 hours ago, kariyaki said: And I think the thing with the roofie was that it enabled Baldwin to drag Nadia all over the place without her putting up much of a fight. Also probably made her more talkative/cooperative with a total stranger like Howard. 1 Link to comment
hardy har February 5, 2018 Share February 5, 2018 Ok, so lower than I thought, but still. I just think it’d be weird the introduce a double for one of the main characters only to kill them pretty much right away. Link to comment
Ltg.jon February 5, 2018 Share February 5, 2018 On 2/1/2018 at 8:11 AM, Haleth said: Nadia had to split since Baldwin mentions watching her father die too. It would have been too much of a coincidence if there were two separate incidents. But that would mean Nadia/Baldwin are at least 39 years old. Link to comment
Haleth February 5, 2018 Share February 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Ltg.jon said: But that would mean Nadia/Baldwin are at least 39 years old. Exactly. It doesn't make sense. They should have cast an older actress. Link to comment
Skyfall February 6, 2018 Share February 6, 2018 8 hours ago, Haleth said: Exactly. It doesn't make sense. They should have cast an older actress. But who says everyone who’s split had to be alive during the split? 1 Link to comment
Bort February 6, 2018 Share February 6, 2018 2 minutes ago, Skyfall said: But who says everyone who’s split had to be alive during the split? Right? I don't see why there wouldn't be plenty of doubles whose lives stayed parallel even after the universes duplicated themselves. The Nadias letting their fathers die on the platform may have just been the catalyst for where their lives diverged, each dealing with it differently. 1 Link to comment
Ltg.jon February 6, 2018 Share February 6, 2018 I think it depends on how soon the pandemics started — I have to believe that an extinction-level event would cause such massive social disruption that very few people's lives would be unchanged. 1 Link to comment
Mardo2044 March 12, 2018 Share March 12, 2018 On 2/4/2018 at 3:37 PM, hardy har said: I mean, we only have Aldrich's word, we never saw her body and the shot was to her shoulder. I never thought of this at all.. I took at face value she was dead. But I find Aldrich the most quietly efficient and interesting character on the show. So you are right she could reemerge later on... Link to comment
AAEBoiler April 28, 2018 Share April 28, 2018 Close to tapping out on this because it keeps putting me to sleep when I watch it. I may give it 1 more episode but, unless it was subtley discussed during a naplet, I still don't quite understand the crux of the series. Link to comment
numbnut May 3, 2018 Share May 3, 2018 On 4/28/2018 at 11:17 AM, AAEBoiler said: Close to tapping out on this because it keeps putting me to sleep when I watch it. I may give it 1 more episode but, unless it was subtley discussed during a naplet, I still don't quite understand the crux of the series. You and me both. I tapped out a while back because of the vague plotting, but I plan to continue the show eventually... when I'm caffeinated. Link to comment
AudienceofOne February 21, 2019 Share February 21, 2019 As everyone said, this was nowhere near as strong as the first episode. It substituted action for plot. I imagine the time it took exploring how small things can lead the same person to have radically different lives will help later. But Nadia's story just wasn't that interesting. Still, this is clearly a show for slow world building and I'm personally grateful they're not spelling everything out. 1 Link to comment
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