The Soviet Union is No More: Casting News, Story Arc Info

[Umbelina]

Even the die hard critics who have loved and supported this show all along ended up, by the end of last season, saying, essentially, "well that was crap."

Even the "support the young actress!" critics are sick to death of Paige and her stories/acting.

So, let's CENTER the final season on the eyebrows of doom girl!  (At least in the ball cap, they are covered, and the glasses change her incredibly bland face into almost appearing she has more than two expressions.)

I know they COULD pull this out, but will they?  Last season was nothing but set ups, all foreplay, no orgasm.  Now we just leave it all years behind, which frankly, may be for the best, but WTF?  I was at least hoping those dregs meant something.  Stan's suspicious girlfriend, Misha, oh hell all of it.  At least this season we will hope fully not waste show time digging or any of the other boring and frustrating stall tactics they used last year.

Kimmie must be in college now, probably no longer living at home, the Pastor's off inadvertently joining a KGB flavored mission.
 

I still say Paige could die or be captured, and if so?  I hope it's early in the season, because HELL NO I don't want to watch a show where her roll is even bigger than it's been.

blech

Edited December 11, 2017 by Umbelina

[kokapetl]

Damn sloppy writing to have the platinum super spies involve Paige in their activities. 

[jrlr]

Paige?  Just. . .NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[BingeyKohan]

One main reason I’m bummed about this three-year jump is because it dissipates any narrative tension in the one genuinely suspenseful thing leading into the final season: is Renee a spy or not? That’s a lot of story to skip and still have it be relevant, and the finale seemed to set her up as having the exact opposite experience of Philip: just as he felt he was out, a development pulled him back, while just as she felt she was in, Stan wanting to quit meant the opportunity might be blown. Whatever, I’m still hoping for an Elizabeth/Renee fight to rival Sydney/faux Francie. Maybe Paige joins in at the last minute. 

[crgirl412]

I wonder why they couldn't have added two more seasons to get all three years in and not just skip them.  This show is ending early compared to GOT and especially TWD!!  I wonder why they opted to do it this way?  There are plenty of places to go in the story- especially post fall of the USSSR.  I don't watch either of the others so is there something that I'm not getting?

[Umbelina]

Well, ratings are pretty dismal, but if IRRC, the writers seemed to always know where they wanted to end in and when.  This last season was a "fill in" for them, they didn't need it, and they certainly wasted it.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Umbelina

[ruby24]

So we're definitely seeing the collapse of the USSR then. No one will get caught, most likely.

[sistermagpie]

Why are we definitely seeing the collapse? Its 1987 at the start of 10 episodes and apprently we'll be seeing Paige be making a few friends at college and being more confident  (using her mother's method of confidence -- joining a cause and never questioning it) while mostly hanging with bff Elizabeth. Why would that cram in 4 or so years of time in 10 episodes (even if they rest of the family got 3 lines a piece)? You know how the show likes to linger over Paige, especially when she's drinking in Elizabeth's kool aid.

[SusanSunflower]

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9774006  This  Yeltsin centered time demonstrates that the "wheels were coming off the wagon" quite a bit before 1987 (when he had a "secret" heart attack -- on top of existent heart damage).  For the Jenning's and the residentura these would have been rollercoaster tense times ... Yeltsin's "noteworthy" (drunken, unsteady) trip to Washington DC was September 1989. 

eta: I sincerely hope that the writers do not skimp on Oleg and the Residentura in favor of girl-spy Paige ... since Oleg &Co is probably my favorite story arch at this point (pointless as it seems, there's genuine human emotional resonance there) 

Edited December 26, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

eta: I sincerely hope that the writers do not skimp on Oleg and the Residentura in favor of girl-spy Paige ... since Oleg &Co is probably my favorite story arch at this point (pointless as it seems, there's genuine human emotional resonance there) 

It's disheartening that the show seems to basically be pushing this whole season Paige coming into her own as a spy. In the past they haven't even really done these kinds of "first looks" except as maybe a little thing highlighting a new disguise from P or E or both. This they seem to be pushing like it's the awesome development we've been working towards all along--Paige being "confident" and Elizabeth getting to train her--I wonder how much attention would really be paid to anything like the exact state of Yeltsin. Let's face it, Elizabeth hasn't paid attention to whatever might or might not be going on in the USSR in decades. Any suggestion of wheels coming off the bus would probably just register as fake news to her. And Paige is presumably following her lead about how to interpret it all--she has no connection to the USSR at all. This isn't really about the state of the world for them, it's about them feeling strong and righteous (Claudia's sort of like that too in that she's got nothing else).  As we heard the guy tell Elizabeth at EST, she loves her cage. But damn I miss the Rezidentura.

[scrb]

Maybe they're trying to set up a possible spinoff where Paige will be Elizabeth's age and she's still spying for the Russians in present day US.

So among other things, she's studying social media and reporting back.

[Dowel Jones]

4 hours ago, scrb said:

So among other things, she's studying social media and reporting back.

As if the Russians would ever be interested in using social media to create dissent and confusion (/snark)

[mattie0808]

On 12/26/2017 at 2:27 PM, SusanSunflower said:

eta: I sincerely hope that the writers do not skimp on Oleg and the Residentura in favor of girl-spy Paige ... since Oleg &Co is probably my favorite story arch at this point (pointless as it seems, there's genuine human emotional resonance there) 

I haven’t thought much about this since I’ve been so disappointed in the Jennings spoilers, but the three-year jump sure makes the Oleg storyline from last season just a big fat nothing, doesn’t it? I could not BELIEVE they didn’t even have him in the season finale. Guess it just doesn’t matter whether the KGB was onto him? Or what the outcome of his whole corruption investigation with the food supplies was? That is one hell of a dropped plotline. I mean, wherever Oleg is or whatever he’s doing in the new season, what was the point of any single thing that happened to him in Season 5?!

 

I have to say, I don’t have particularly high hopes that Oleg - or any of the Russian characters that aren’t the Jennings or maybe Claudia - are going to get the full attention or story movement/closure they deserve. But then, a lot of my hope and positive expectation has been dashed just by learning the main direction they want to go in for P/E and Paige. Sigh.

Edited December 27, 2017 by mattie0808

[kokapetl]

1987 will be perfectly timed for Iran Contra. One of the legacies of the Reagan era of The Americans is that of war without consequences (for American politicians). 

A focus on the USSR or Eastern Bloc would be a bad idea, because what happened to the USSR and the Eastern Bloc was caused by the people within the USSR and the Eastern Bloc. Not Americans. 

[SusanSunflower]

The US bragged (Time Magazine cover) that it got Yeltsin elected in 1996 ...

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/09/world/moscow-journal-the-americans-who-saved-yeltsin-or-did-they.html

American advisors strategically worked (covertly by aiding the Mujahadeen for several years) to incite the Soviet "invasion" of Afghanistan in 1979 ... the Soviet "Vietnam" (an American proxy war) lasted until Soviet withdrawal in 1989 ...   We've already seen plot threads wrt the Afghan war ... which likely will be picked up in the last season. 

And then there were various economic and other "advisors" who worked to try to stabilize the spinning out of control, declining Soviet Union.... probably too complicated and too late to become plot threads. 

[scrb]

4 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

1987 will be perfectly timed for Iran Contra. One of the legacies of the Reagan era of The Americans is that of war without consequences (for American politicians). 

A focus on the USSR or Eastern Bloc would be a bad idea, because what happened to the USSR and the Eastern Bloc was caused by the people within the USSR and the Eastern Bloc. Not Americans. 

Gorbachev was one of the most influential figures in the world from 1985 or so.

He's the one who talked about Glastnost and Perestroika.  American media was all over this -- Time made him Man of the Year and Man of the Decade for what he did in those years.

If Gorbachev was making structural changes behind the scenes in those years, it's hard not to see this affecting the illegals.  First of all, the USSR may not have had this paranoid view of the US, like when they thought assassination attempt on Reagan would lead to a coup and the Jennings were getting ready to pounce.  Or their fears of stealth bombers or the US working on biological weapons or trying to contaminate Russian crops.

So you would think the Jennings would be getting different kinds of missions, if they didn't cut back on a lot of those activities.

But the bigger thing is that the series has had a theme about the Jennings being changed by their experience with giving in the US.  They may remember their youth in Russia but they've lived their adult lives in comfort.  Elizabeth dismissed the comfort and things like reliable electricity as superficial things (though she seems to like the wardrobe she accumulated in her American home).

Now, they have Gorbachev saying Russian standard of living is poor and they must fix it.  They hinted at it last season with the food shortages, with Oleg investigating corruption around allocation of food.  The shortages got a lot of coverage in Western media too.  

So Elizabeth can no longer say to Philip that they should go back to Russia, when there's upheaval back there and they're trying to improve their living standards relative to the US and the West.  Nor could they convincingly tell Paige that they have to spy because their system is better than the American system.

If nothing else, all the Jennings should have some strong opinion about what was going on in the USSR at the time.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, scrb said:

So Elizabeth can no longer say to Philip that they should go back to Russia, when there's upheaval back there and they're trying to improve their living standards relative to the US and the West.  Nor could they convincingly tell Paige that they have to spy because their system is better than the American system.

I think she'd absolutely tell Paige that. This is Elizabeth, not some objective observer. Elizabeth has never told Philip they should go back to Russia. It's always been Philip who wanted to go back to Russia, if only because they could retire there. Elizabeth is actually the one who's not into it and scuttled the plans at the first opportunity (with great relief, imo).

It's Philip who listened to the Defector and has questioned the Russian system all along. Elizabeth brushed it off as complaining and thinks any internal problems the USSR might have are petty details ("everybody has problems" I think she said about the USSR's inability to produce wheat). I think she'll absolutely convincingly tell Paige that their system is better than the American one because Elizabeth's view is not based on reality, it's based on faith. It's also based not on practical living conditions but the idea of oppressed masses all over the world that she's fighting for.

The biggest motivation in her personality is to be completely loyal to the cause--and she's completely lacking in any self-awareness about how much all this is about her personal issues. She wants Paige at her side making noble sacrifices with her and imo will have no problem selling it as such. If Gorbachev is fixing some little flaws in their system, what would that mean to her? I'd think it would just be an annoyance. And that's assuming they even get into it, since we've never heard the Jennings much discuss Russian politics. Gorbachev might be a game-changer, but in the past, at least, the very rare times a Jennings has actively sought out or thought about that sort of thing it's been Philip.

[anonymiss]

I just read about the time jump. It's jarring. I feel cheated out of story and it seems to send a message that the show is only about Paige and her growth.

[scrb]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think she'd absolutely tell Paige that. This is Elizabeth, not some objective observer. Elizabeth has never told Philip they should go back to Russia. It's always been Philip who wanted to go back to Russia, if only because they could retire there. Elizabeth is actually the one who's not into it and scuttled the plans at the first opportunity (with great relief, imo).

It's Philip who listened to the Defector and has questioned the Russian system all along. Elizabeth brushed it off as complaining and thinks any internal problems the USSR might have are petty details ("everybody has problems" I think she said about the USSR's inability to produce wheat). I think she'll absolutely convincingly tell Paige that their system is better than the American one because Elizabeth's view is not based on reality, it's based on faith. It's also based not on practical living conditions but the idea of oppressed masses all over the world that she's fighting for.

The biggest motivation in her personality is to be completely loyal to the cause--and she's completely lacking in any self-awareness about how much all this is about her personal issues. She wants Paige at her side making noble sacrifices with her and imo will have no problem selling it as such. If Gorbachev is fixing some little flaws in their system, what would that mean to her? I'd think it would just be an annoyance. And that's assuming they even get into it, since we've never heard the Jennings much discuss Russian politics. Gorbachev might be a game-changer, but in the past, at least, the very rare times a Jennings has actively sought out or thought about that sort of thing it's been Philip.

What you're describing is epistemic closure, a phenomenon ascribed to American conservatives who deny all kinds of facts because it doesn't fit with their beliefs.

Problem is, if Elizabeth was that rigid in her beliefs, that is closed off to facts which run counter to her assumptions, then she couldn't do her job, which involves collecting intelligence, which includes facts.

Remember when Reagan was assassinated and they absolutely believed there would be a coup?  When the facts didn't conform to their preconceptions, they didn't reject those facts.

Similarly they though the US were monsters working on bio weapons or looking to sabotage Russian crops.  But they found out that their Soviet masters lied to them to get the bio weapon and the scientists weren't working on sabotaging crops but making crops more resistant to pestilence.  Now overall they still think Americans are bad and the USSR must win some existential struggle.

If at the end of the series they still are true believers, then these are very flawed characters at the center of this show.

Then again, Gorbachev didn't have too many supporters in his own country, even as his reputation in the West became very favorable.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, scrb said:

Problem is, if Elizabeth was that rigid in her beliefs, that is closed off to facts which run counter to her assumptions, then she couldn't do her job, which involves collecting intelligence, which includes facts.

But even people with epistemic closure are able to collect *some* facts and respond to them--they just don't accept facts that go against their core beliefs. There was nothing threatening to Elizabeth in realizing that the US was not in the middle of a coup in "In Control," or in learning that the US was not poisoning crops to Russia, or in learning that the bio-weapons that she allegedly stole to protect them in the events of a US two-strike attack were actually being weaponized to use offensively against Afghanistan. None of those things made her consider whether she was really doing what she told herself she was doing.  She even continued to see the Centre as the good guys when she knew for a fact they condoned her rape. So I don't see why Gorbachev saying he wants to make changes would make it more difficult for her to tell Paige she ought to be sacrificing her life to this cause in 1987. (The only thing that ever shook her was the idea that the Centre would question *her* loyalty.)

Plus, a lot of the things Gorbachev seems to be doing seem like they've never been that important to her. She hasn't been in the USSR in 25 years and doesn't want to go back to live, it seems, so the quality of daily life isn't a big selling point for her or for Paige. In fact, she's always seemed to rather take pride in the fact that the standard of living is worse there. So these things in particular seem like they'd barely be a blip on her radar beyond her maybe being annoyed at Gorbachev being so popular in the US because he tells them what they want to hear.

[SusanSunflower]

Gorbachev brought Yeltsin in to national prominence and considerable power.  Gorbachev and his classy wife Raisa was worthy and pride-worthy in their extensively covered visits with Reagan under the umbrella of detente and peristroika (much as in the in nonUSA global press respect for Putin as most powerful in 2017 helps balance what I gather is extensive internal debate about his policies, particulary wrt to the USA).   Reform and stamping out corruption is alway to be welcomed, isn't it ... who would nay-say stamping out corruption.  It's like condemning sin, guaranteed crowd pleaser most of the time.  I hope that the Rezidentura provides an insider view of those years ... beyond the so respectful and tasteful photo ops and glowing comparisons of Nancy and Raisa -- such exemplary wives of global leaders.  Only the worst, most illogical Trump moves rival Yeltsen's follies for head-scratching bewilderment.  In a sense, Gorbachev's sanity and adult frame helped avoid (as in denial) the out-of-control embarrassment that was Yeltsen. 

We'll see how "deep a dig" (a phrase I have seen in various permutations endlessly over the last days) the writers are willing to commit to ... Phillip's son is still adrift and -- god willing -- Gabriel is still alive and still righteous about doing what he can to right-wrongs.  I think Elizabeth could be embarrassed or disappointed into an "existential crisis" particularly in trying to explain things to Paige. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[scrb]

But daily life in the USSR vs. the US goes to the core of her beliefs, as to which system is better, more equitable, etc.

Where does Elizabeth's loyalty to the USSR come from?  She remembers that after a brutal war, she and her widowed mother were more or less taken care of, so the system was kind to her and other Russians who had to endure extreme deprivation (there was that in Europe as well).

Her mother was exploited in exchange for this help and ultimately had to hand over her daughter to the state for this mission but Elizabeth seems grateful nevertheless.

So if it turns out that the Soviet system doesn't provide well for its citizens, favoring an elite class in ways which run counter to the lofty words of Marx and Lenin, you would think she'd have some kind of crisis of conscience.

 

If Elizabeth dismisses Gorabachev's criticisms of the system and push for reform out of hand, then we'd have to conclude that she is simply on the wrong side of history.  I hope that at least Philip has a more enlightened reaction.

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I think Elizabeth could be embarrassed or disappointed into an "existential crisis" particularly in trying to explain things to Paige. 

That's assuming Paige is asking challenging questions on this score, which she might not be. Logically Paige should have started asking these questions long ago. A girl her age in the 80s would already know plenty of things worth challenging about the USSR, but Paige has never asked any of them. She just seems to have a history of being attracted to finding strength through this sort of thing. It's like whatever that was that Philip once said about Fred, that he'd help the Martians if it made him feel like part of something bigger than himself.

8 hours ago, scrb said:

Where does Elizabeth's loyalty to the USSR come from?  She remembers that after a brutal war, she and her widowed mother were more or less taken care of, so the system was kind to her and other Russians who had to endure extreme deprivation (there was that in Europe as well).

Her mother was exploited in exchange for this help and ultimately had to hand over her daughter to the state for this mission but Elizabeth seems grateful nevertheless.

So if it turns out that the Soviet system doesn't provide well for its citizens, favoring an elite class in ways which run counter to the lofty words of Marx and Lenin, you would think she'd have some kind of crisis of conscience.

 

If Elizabeth dismisses Gorabachev's criticisms of the system and push for reform out of hand, then we'd have to conclude that she is simply on the wrong side of history.  I hope that at least Philip has a more enlightened reaction.

I'm not sure that is what the show has showed us about where Elizabeth's loyalty to the USSR comes from. I mean yes, presumably as a Soviet citizen she sees the US system as inferior because it allows so many people to fall through the cracks and get crushed under the wheels of capitalism while the Soviet system has a stronger safety net--that's, imo, a given. I know there's at least one time she alluded to that. But that doesn't seem to be where her passion lies so it seems weird that she'd have brushed off the Centre offering her up to be raped (an obvious sign of corruption) or their use of bio-weapons offensively against others (an obvious sign that they are the aggressor) but have a crisis over Gorabachev saying they need reforms to root out corruption to make the country better. She wasn't bothered by Alexei's similar criticisms.

When I think of stuff that Elizabeth's actually said about her devotion to the cause it seems more about her identifying with the people who came before her and fought off the invader in the Great Patriotic War. She saw her father as a martyr and a hero, then found out he was shot as a coward and never admitted it to anyone. Zhukov himself tells her that she was chosen because she had such a deep fear of surrendering to the enemy. Her mother "didn't blink" before sending her away because it was "necessary."  Philip and Oleg and Gabriel have all poked at the dark parts of their country's history without Elizabeth.

It just seems like Elizabeth is the character for whom the righteousness of the USSR is the most bound up in her own personal righteousness and it would take something far more dire--and probably personal--for her knee-jerk defense or denial to crumble. Without that I can't see any reason for her to not be on the wrong side of history. Even the few times she's felt bad about something she's done she's re-framed it as a failure in herself to put "the greater good" above her own feelings. Gorbachev made his speech about living standards, I believe, in 1985. The show's picking up in 1987 and Elizabeth, according to Kerri Russell, is very happy training Paige to do this with her. That doesn't sound like a woman who's bothered by changes in the USSR in the least. On the contrary, as usual she's gotten everything the way she wanted. She's happy to have turned Paige into a mini-me (and ritual sacrifice for The Cause), the two of them working for the approval of the same (flawed) authority figure.

Edited December 29, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Ellaria]

On 12/8/2017 at 3:37 PM, Umbelina said:

The Paige show?

Ack...this was not what I was hoping for.  I have been advocating for less Paige not more. I will still watch but this plot development doesn't interest me at all. Needless to say, I am incredibly disappointed. I was not happy with last season but assumed that it was putting the pieces into place for an emotional final season. Now I'm not so sure.

If this quote from Fields in the EW article is any indication of where the story is headed, I just don't know what else to say:

Quote

“Paige, as an American citizen, has a solid identity, so there’s no point in training Paige to do honey traps or commit murder. Elizabeth’s long game is to have her join the CIA or the State Department or the upper echelons of the military. Who knows? Maybe one day she might be president.” 

 

On 12/28/2017 at 6:34 PM, anonymiss said:

I just read about the time jump. It's jarring. I feel cheated out of story and it seems to send a message that the show is only about Paige and her growth.

I agree. Meanwhile, what has happened to Oleg and his parents? Has Misha's storyline (if you want to call it that) been resolved? Why did we meet the overly curious Renee? And, of course, three more years have passed without Stan realizing that his racquetball-playing pal is (was) in the KGB.

[Umbelina]

http://deadline.com/2017/12/homeland-costa-ronin-season-7-cast-the-americans-1202223330/ 

‘Homeland’: ‘The Americans’ Costa Ronin To Recur In Showtime Drama

MORE BAD NEWS! 

Well, not for the actor, he's joining HOMELAND, but crappy for THE AMERICAN'S prospects.

[Ellaria]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

‘Homeland’: ‘The Americans’ Costa Ronin To Recur In Showtime Drama

MORE BAD NEWS! 

Well, not for the actor, he's joining HOMELAND, but crappy for THE AMERICAN'S prospects.

Yes, good for him.

Do we know if he filmed any scenes for S6? I can't imagine that they would drop his storyline entirely. Whether they resolve it in a satisfactory way is another matter entirely.

[Umbelina]

No idea. 

Although with the other spoilers?  Who knows.  He could be running the residentura by now, or dead with Stan lamenting his inability to save him, or a defector living in the USA with mom or dad (the other being dead or in prison or something.)

It sounds like we are in for all-Paige all the time, so I don't think any of the stories last season will matter at all, other than hers.  It would be fantastic if Oleg defected though.

I'm so torn, it's hard to have any faith in the writers after last year, but I want to, I want to believe the writers of the previous seasons will be back and amaze us.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Do we know if he filmed any scenes for S6? I can't imagine that they would drop his storyline entirely. Whether they resolve it in a satisfactory way is another matter entirely.

I think he has. On Twitter he had a picture of himself in a trailer so he as presumably there for filming, and he used a hashtag saying he knew how the show ended. So he's probably in the show some.

But wow, it is really depressing  to think of all the characters we've lost and hints their time might just be taken up by more and more Paige (maybe Henry's even just off at school). They sometimes post blurry photos of filming on Twitter and the only two shots I've seen with people were both...Elizabeth and Paige. (Yes, there'll be more training in the garage so we're probably expected to be impressed by how badass Paige is now.)

It's funny, this makes me think how Paige seemed the most her own person in S1 when she seemed to just stand for herself. Then she decided to stand for "something bigger" instead and it seemed like a regression. There's something pathetic in deciding to become your mother right down to the out of date political pov. There's plenty of anti-Reagan policy political stuff going on for kids her age. They just don't see the USSR as the good guys.

Edited January 5, 2018 by sistermagpie

[sistermagpie]

Last night there was an Americans panel at TCA. I didn't see it but according to Twitter a lot of stuff about a rift between Philip and Elizabeth mirroring rift between reformers and old timers in the USSR. (So no Elizabeth is not reforming.) And the time jump showing how much the marriage changed. But it's hard to imagine that rift being too equal since as per usual there was a ton of gushing about how amazing Elizabeth is. She's so strong and feminist and single minded and would do anything to protect her family and it makes perfect sense as written Paige would want to spy for the USSR.

 

About Philip all I heard was that both he and Elizabeth were good parents and not neglectful. And oh, the revelation that all this time Philip has always been full time at the travel agency and mostly spied at night. So while Elizabeth was making speeches about hard work she was also keeping a reasonable schedule and getting her rest while he was pulling double shifts in the background.

 

Also this has always been a pet peeve of mine, but more references to how Paige inherited her mother's "Russian soul" and Henry got his father's American side. It always bugs me the way Russia gets awarded to Elizabeth all the time, like it's hers alone. Even though she seems more reluctant to live there and has no one there she cares about.  Philip's just some American guy. But the weird thing is that I have to say, without claiming any authority on the Russian soul, a guy working hard and finding joy in simple pleasures while agonizing over the meaning of what he's doing and looking for small ways to assert morality doesn't sound so out of place in the Russian art I've seen. (Seems more Russian than American in some ways, actually. The kind of Russian Elizabeth is seems like it's more present in the US imagination.) Meanwhile authoritarians come in many forms. Slap a different outfit on Elizabeth and Paige and they'd be just as believable as New England Puritans. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Sarah 103]

On 1/4/2018 at 4:13 PM, Umbelina said:

It sounds like we are in for all-Paige all the time, so I don't think any of the stories last season will matter at all, other than hers.  It would be fantastic if Oleg defected though.

As long as Oleg is alive and part of the series, I'm set. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Sarah 103 said:

As long as Oleg is alive and part of the series, I'm set. 

Unless he's separated from the whole cast and story again.  arrrghhh

[Umbelina]

Quote

 

Paige has a choice between what?  Life and death, sure.  She could always kill herself, or run to the FBI for immunity and let her parents be jailed or killed, become a ward of the state, along with Henry, probably not even put into the same house if they even did find foster parents.  Or perhaps living under protection with FBI guards in a safehouse somewhere far from the main group of KGB operatives.

She has NO choice, and hasn't from the moment Center decided they wanted her, and Elizabeth went whole hog to make that happen.  Yes, she had questions, especially after Elizabeth taking her on a little tour of Gregory's neighborhood and giving Paige his name.  Still, Philip and Elizabeth MADE that choice for her, by not defecting the moment the KGB came after their kid, and most certainly by telling her the truth.

They could have told her they were in witness protection.  They could have told her they worked for the NSA or some other US secret service operation and that not even the FBI agent across the street knew that.  They could have stonewalled.

Philip would have protected Paige, but he sacrificed her for Elizabeth, just like he continually sacrifices his soul, feeling like shit all the time.  Pussy whipped doesn't even cover the full extent of Philip's failings as a father and a man.

The moment Elizabeth was all gung ho about her daughter joining her in the glorious cause?  All good choices for Paige went traipsing out the door.

Someone just "liked" an old post of mine about Paige, in the thread for Crossbreed. .  Considering what we now know as spoilers?  I decided to put it here, since...well, looks like it's the season of the Paige coming up.  So it's above, since formatting became an issue.

[Ellaria]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Someone just "liked" an old post of mine about Paige, in the thread for Crossbreed. .  Considering what we now know as spoilers?  I decided to put it here, since...well, looks like it's the season of the Paige coming up.  So it's above, since formatting became an issue.

Agree with all of the points that you made in the other thread and posted above. I am not looking forward to the upcoming Season of Paige.

During the first few seasons, this show maintained a sense of tension and unease that was nearly palpable. I was exhausted watching it. It was subtle but it was terrifying. For me, that's now gone. Other than Henry and Oleg, I no longer care about who will live and who will die. Early on, I recommended this show to everyone. Now...not so much.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[sistermagpie]

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Quote

The moment Elizabeth was all gung ho about her daughter joining her in the glorious cause?  All good choices for Paige went traipsing out the door.

 

But I think as presented Paige could absolutely have not worked for the Centre and just kept the secret. She wasn't, imo, doomed because she'd have to say yes but because of course she'd say yes. She pretty much announced that in S2 when she explained she was attracted to the church because "my life my...crazy...life" (really awkwardly performed line) and she needed somewhere to "put it all." She wants a world with an instruction manual where she's the best. Pastor Tim wound up doubting too much. Elizabeth never does--especially about Paige, who she sees as exactly like her. 

 

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip would have protected Paige, but he sacrificed her for Elizabeth, just like he continually sacrifices his soul, feeling like shit all the time.  Pussy whipped doesn't even cover the full extent of Philip's failings as a father and a man.

 

The frustration of this, to me, is that they never saw fit to explain exactly why this is. Elizabeth has this backstory that's been lovingly communicated and carefully updated throughout the series so you get why she's doing this. So we don't see Elizabeth as the same kind of failure when she chooses to hand over everyone she loves to the Centre. (We might if we didn't have all that.)

With Philip all we hear over and over again is how he feels about things in the moment (terrible!) and what he chooses to do about it (nothing particularly decisive!). 

I think this would come across very differently if we had some backstory, like we have for Elizabeth, to show us exactly what Philip does and does not think is possible, for instance. Or what he thinks of as consequences of potential actions. What exactly is his damage? (The glimpses we get of his life are sometimes harsher than Elizabeth's.) If Elizabeth equates not sacrificing Paige with "surrendering to the enemy" or keeping her close, what does Philip associate all this stuff with? What's Philip so afraid of he keeps making these choices? It not just that he loves super special Elizabeth so much.

Edited January 8, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

I think we've seen plenty about Philip, and yes, I do think everything is about Elizabeth for him now. 

It's why the "love story" part of this kind of makes me ill now, certainly after last season, but it was there before as well.  It's warped.

As for Paige being so gung ho, just because Mommy is?  I never bought it.  Information was everywhere, and she's always done her own investigating/snooping before.  NOW suddenly she believes mommy about everything, doesn't read newspapers, read books, know about the famine and war crimes of the USSR?

Oh please...

[SusanSunflower]

I think you're are underestimating Phillip's dependency on Elizabeth's good graces in staying in the Centre's (and Claudia's) good graces and how much of a deal-breaker, marriage & career ender obstructing Elizabeth wrt Paige would be/is.  Gabriel may have, in the last moment, agreed with Phillip's reservations/objections to recruiting Paige -- but Gabriel is now safely retired ... and that was -- apparently at the start of next season -- years ago. 

I thought the "real orthodox wedding" was in part of psycho-op by Phillip to get Elizabeth to cleave more fully to her husband ...  (imho, fat chance)... as Martha cleaved to Clark. 

Phillip's options began dying when Elizabeth abandoned any concerns and went gung-ho for training Paige with little emphasis on the training that makes for a successful embed (think of William and several of Elizabeth's "marks' in the past -- people with genuine technical knowledge and experience and positions earned by years of proven service).  

I'm not sure how much they are going to be expecting us to have forgotten and who we're rooting for ... I've thought (all along) that Phillip favored peace in the partnership over asserting his preferences/opinion, even in a chauvinistic "Let her think she's in charge" (since Elizabeth places herself so far above Phillip).  The loss of Gabriel and return of Claudia was baaaad news for Phillip (3 years ago).  

I can't remember if Phillip has expressed "nostalgia for the USSSR (as Elizabeth appears to have) or if his plans to return are based on the long held assumption that he would retire to there after his service was completed, to a comfortable retirement (like Gabriel) and that his thoughts of "going underground" in the USA were the stuff of existential threat (from the Centre) ...  

Elizabeth believes their team and historical achievements ensure a happy ending and a Centre eager to accommodate them fairly. 

We'll see.  If it becomes E versus P, it may get brutal ... with or without Paige 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think we've seen plenty about Philip, and yes, I do think everything is about Elizabeth for him now. 

I think there’s plenty of times he’s shown making decisions that aren’t about Elizabeth, but even for the stuff that is, I don't feel like I know much at all about Philip’s emotional life or relationships growing up. The couple of presumably formative moments we know about we don’t even know much how it formed him. With Elizabeth the warp’s laid out pretty clearly.

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

As for Paige being so gung ho, just because Mommy is?  I never bought it.  Information was everywhere, and she's always done her own investigating/snooping before.  NOW suddenly she believes mommy about everything, doesn't read newspapers, read books, know about the famine and war crimes of the USSR?

It’s ridiculous that they never even have her bring these things up, I agree. But that feels like the idea. When Pastor Tim had all the answers she researched the world as he saw it, she didn’t challenge it (granted, his politics did not require the same challenge). As ridiculous as it might be that she’d swallow her mother’s stories, it seems from what they’re saying that she’s genuinely into it and that they've been trying to write her to this all along--wants to belong, stricken from lack of confidence without a cause. Maybe her ptsd in s5 simply killed the side of her that stood up for herself and ferreted out truth. Or maybe the only truth she was interested in was the Big Secret. She was jealous of that and now she's got it and loves it.

40 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I can't remember if Phillip has expressed "nostalgia for the USSSR (as Elizabeth appears to have) or if his plans to return are based on the long held assumption that he would retire to there after his service was completed, to a comfortable retirement (like Gabriel) and that his thoughts of "going underground" in the USA were the stuff of existential threat (from the Centre) ...  

His moments of anything like nostalgia are pretty rare (he does have a few wistful lines), but I honestly think he’d have a much easier adjustment than Elizabeth. He was the one pushing for it for years, although of course he was also happy to defect in the pilot (he's never wanted to try to go underground in the US without that protection). He seems very good at existing on scraps. We now know he’s got at least four family members there who’d probably be supportive of him.

I think Elizabeth’s the one who’d be scared to live there. No way would it live up to the fantasy USSR in her head, she doesn’t want to hear about any of the many problems there, plus she’d lose the cause. (As they said in EST—she loves her cage.) Not that she'd ever admit that, but I think it's true. (Especially once the USSR collapsed.) Kind of interesting that even when Paige asked her about other careers she seemed to imply she'd be a doctor in another country. (Unless that's something I'm reading into it that wasn't there.)

Edited January 9, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

I think "being a doctor" was just the quickest "I want to serve the people" substitute she thought of ... because she's a young pioneer or whatever red-kerchief little soldier she was raised to be.  Paige may have a certain "idealism" but it's not the same as being a hardworking self-less soldier in an endless battle -- real and ideological. 

I agree that I have seen nothing to suggest Paige either as a "good foot soldier" or a self-less career climbing wannabe embed (at the CIA or NASA or as an escort to powerful or useful men) ... there's nothing "knowing" or manipulative about Paige ... she's not even competitive and/or jealous with Henry, ferchrissakes. She's also not an standout student, marginally a standout church youth volunteer... except she wasn't even that.  Although I cannot imagine her ever trying, I'd love to see Paige inveigle her way into Kimmie's circle, seek Kimmie's dad's advice ... or if not Kimmie's dad, whaddabout pressing Stan into some surrogate father role (much as Henry achieved naturally enough).  

The girl appears to have no ambition beyond being a dutiful daughter and pleasing her mom (and dad).  

I've been disappointed that both P&E have not been more frustrated at the drift of their "operations" towards wet work (remember the Afghanistan operation?  remember the operation that recruited Gregory?  Now they're snuffing aged war criminals and folks they've compromised through their own incompetence/"bad luck."   

I'm afraid the last few years have made Elizabeth a lock-step unquestioning true-believer ... including about things that should "really matter" ... like her unhappy husband Phillip and her dull-as-dishwater, eager to please almost adult daughter.  Paige has issues that, approaching adulthood and independence, a "good parent" should be concerned with.   She had seemed destined to be marry a bible-college graduate and follow him anywhere spreading "the good word" ... and being the self-less obedient wife.  If she had any career interests, we never saw them.  (see also friends, hobbies, sports, enthusiasms like crafts).  Part of why I loved Matthew and his no-talent band ... he was exploring as high-school teens are supposed to do.  Join the marching band or audition for the jazz band, or join the drama club, make costumes or maybe even try out for part ... take chance on drawing, photography, metal shop, or auto mechanics or the chess or robotics / computer club ... IRL, a teenaged girl as subdued and conspicuously inconspicuous as Paige would concern me.  I don't think she's going to assassinate her family (that would be story malpractice)  ... but who knows what lurks beneath those deep deep still waters (that actually seem pretty shallow and unintriguing). 

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I agree that I have seen nothing to suggest Paige either as a "good foot soldier" or a self-less career climbing wannabe embed (at the CIA or NASA or as an escort to powerful or useful men) ... there's nothing "knowing" or manipulative about Paige ... she's not even competitive and/or jealous with Henry, ferchrissakes. She's also not an standout student, marginally a standout church youth volunteer... except she wasn't even that. 

It's hard not to notice that on paper surely Henry would be more attractive to the Centre at this point, hob-nobbing with the rich and famous if he went to that prep school. Though I guess this does mirror the parents again. Elizabeth presumably was a good student the way Paige was--because she was dutiful and "good girls" get good grades. Henry was more genuinely interested in different things when when he got interested in school he became an overnight superstar (like his father, the smartest kid in the school). Elizabeth is a superstar for the Centre because she never stops trying to win the approval of her masters. 

When the article talks about Elizabeth imagining Paige as anything from a top military leader or CIA to president I do wonder if this is one of those blind spots where she doesn't always get how these things are done. Maybe we're supposed to believe Paige is actually amazing enough to turn herself into any of those things, but it seems really fake, especially with Henry there not having to fake it. She'd be competing against serious candidates there.

11 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

She had seemed destined to be marry a bible-college graduate and follow him anywhere spreading "the good word" ... and being the self-less obedient wife. 

I remember wondering if one of the things she liked about the Tims was their conservative marriage where the husband knew everything and the wife gazed at him adoringly and kept quiet while he was talking. She really does seem to prefer Elizabeth having all the answers to Philip's more honest "I don't know" about major life questions. She eventually just decided to become mom since she was never able to beat her.

11 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Paige has issues that, approaching adulthood and independence, a "good parent" should be concerned with. 

It's funny--Elizabeth's been annoyed at both kids seeking out other adult role models, asking if they don't have any normal friends, but both she and Paige both seem to see "mother/daughter time spent on shared Good Cause" as the highest form of recreation. (Paige hoped Elizabeth would really get into church but was no match for her.) 

[SusanSunflower]

It's scary how little the reveal of William's true nature and true (if grumbling) self-less devotion failed to make an impression on Elizabeth -- as it did on both Gabriel and Phillip who had both written William off as an bitter person with a "bad attitude" ... when he was, actually, a dedicated life-long "embed" who had both a brain and qualms ... and who -- when close to the breaking point -- was not "well-taken care of" by the Center.  You can suspect your lover might be "fooling around" (your employer might be screwing you over) but it all changes when you catch them having an animated / imtimate cup of coffee in a public space with the other person (or find a photo or exchange of intimate text messages) or discover that your coworker makes 1/2 again your salary (even 1/4 again is enough to realize your assumptions about equality and security and your standing in the organization gets rocked) 

In season one, the "malpractice" involved in recruiting (and seducing) the more than willing (underaged) "next generation" apparently never (really) fazed Elizabeth either ...  She was concerned about the son of her friends ... but his actions were, as I recall "unfathomable" and personal.  The Centre, wrt to Paige, seems unconscionably uninterested in exactly who this young woman is.  Being smart (a conventionally diligent good student) and eager to please are minor qualities.  I don't see Paige becoming outgoing, morally flexible and emotionally resilient.   

The first seasons, for me memorably, were punctuated with Elizabeth assuring doubting or troubled Phillip that he had done what was necessary  --- there was no alternative ... when of course real life is never that simple and such reassurances are shallow.  It's part of my mistrust and essential dislike of Elizabeth ... for her, "there is no alternative" ... even when obviously there is and was ... the pragmatic choice to remove all doubt and pull the trigger. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[FormerMod-a1]

Please take non-spoiler talk to the appropriate threads.

[sistermagpie]

19 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

It's scary how little the reveal of William's true nature and true (if grumbling) self-less devotion failed to make an impression on Elizabeth -- as it did on both Gabriel and Phillip who had both written William off as an bitter person with a "bad attitude" ... when he was, actually, a dedicated life-long "embed" who had both a brain and qualms ... and who -- when close to the breaking point -- was not "well-taken care of" by the Center.  You can suspect your lover might be "fooling around" (your employer might be screwing you over) but it all changes when you catch them having an animated / imtimate cup of coffee in a public space with the other person (or find a photo or exchange of intimate text messages) or discover that your coworker makes 1/2 again your salary (even 1/4 again is enough to realize your assumptions about equality and security and your standing in the organization gets rocked) 

In season one, the "malpractice" involved in recruiting (and seducing) the more than willing (underaged) "next generation" apparently never (really) fazed Elizabeth either ...  She was concerned about the son of her friends ... but his actions were, as I recall "unfathomable" and personal.  The Centre, wrt to Paige, seems unconscionably uninterested in exactly who this young woman is.  Being smart (a conventionally diligent good student) and eager to please are minor qualities.  I don't see Paige becoming outgoing, morally flexible and emotionally resilient.   

The first seasons, for me memorably, were punctuated with Elizabeth assuring doubting or troubled Phillip that he had done what was necessary  --- there was no alternative ... when of course real life is never that simple and such reassurances are shallow.  It's part of my mistrust and essential dislike of Elizabeth ... for her, "there is no alternative" ... even when obviously there is and was ... the pragmatic choice to remove all doubt and pull the trigger. 

Answering in the Elizabeth thread....

[Umbelina]

The previews show Paige in a familiar spot.  Completely gung ho about her new "passion/cause."

First it was Christianity, and now it's being a spy.  I say "being a spy" rather than commitment to the glorious Soviet Cause, because there has been absolutely no clue she's bothered to even look into that.  Of course, it's been 3 years, so maybe she boned up on Elizabeth's propaganda and didn't read a newspaper or watch TV footage or research any Western views/histories, let alone read one of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn books.

So communism is her new Christianity?  If so?  That doesn't bode well for her latest venture, she doesn't remain passionate for long, what did it take her with the church?  A year?

Edited January 16, 2018 by Umbelina

[kokapetl]

Paige shows a lot of leg these days

 

What did he say?

[crgirl412]

We need Umbelina or Choclatine!!  

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

What did he say?

She said that Oleg had inspired her to go back to studying Russian, which she'd stopped after college for 5 years. She would listen to Oleg and read the subtitles and over time understand more and more. So she decided to take lessons.

She's also really happy that CR is going to be on Homeland. She doesn't think CR will read the message himself so hopes someone will pass it along her thanks.

[Umbelina]

As far as the leg showing in the photo above?  Not a great idea when posing next to her on screen mother.

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 8:31 PM, Umbelina said:

‘Homeland’: ‘The Americans’ Costa Ronin To Recur In Showtime Drama

Wow, that's still on TV?

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

Wow, that's still on TV?

and still rockin' it.

[VCRTracking]

I'm hoping the best part of1987 is for Elizabeth and Paige to be sporting big hair wigs. Like  Fawn Hall big hair. I want hair that'll give Joan Cusack in Working Girl a run for her money! I want them wearing "Mary Jane in Spider-Man as drawn by Todd McFarlane" hair!

I've always thought the best punishment for Elizabeth is too see her beloved Soviet Union collapse and America winning the Cold War. We might get to see it if they jump ahead 3 years for the finale.