Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[stealinghome]

The evidence on the subject is somewhat contradictory, but I think Regina did give them memories of a false life, yeah. In 1x06, David Nolan and Kathryn are looking at pictures and it's implied that they're pictures from their honeymoon/vacation, right? And David and Kathryn talk about buying their house even though that didn't happen (the curse plunked Charming down as a coma patient and Kathryn in the house); we know from the writers that Granny never actually had a heart attack, that was her and Ruby's fake backstory. So Regina has to have given them some specific false life memories, at least.

[KingOfHearts]

David Nolan also remembered reading Alice in Wonderland in school. Emma asked Sidney how he found himself in Regina's pocket, and he answered "I used to think she was a different person." Granny also remembered caring for Red when she was a baby. Marco mentioned having a wife and trying to have a child for many years.

 

But there's been other times where the characters claim things are a bit hazy or things have been "that way as long as I can remember". So I think Regina put just enough life experiences in there for them to seem like legitimate people, as stealinghome said.

Edited September 1, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

So I think Regina put just enough life experiences in there for them to seem like legitimate people, as stealinghome said.

I've wondered if it's a combination of a couple of things--I think Regina could insert specific things if she thought it was important, but for the most part memories were given only enough grounding to make people stop asking questions.

 

I think the curse itself would give more substantial memories when not doing so would make people realize they were under a curse.  (Of course, I think the curse itself is responsible for Henry's book, as a tool to break the curse within the built-in deadline.)

[stealinghome]

I also wonder if the curse had an easier time inserting memories that weren't linked to something highly emotional in the Enchanted Forest. So for example, it couldn't really give Mary Margaret a memory of how long she'd known Graham or how they met, because Snow/the Huntsman was a hugely emotional memory for Snow. But for things that were less emotionally fraught, or less "true"--David Nolan and Kathryn's marriage, for example--it was easier.

 

Really, the more I think about the curse, the more I think Regina got a real shit deal with that one. Should've read the fine print, dearie!

Edited September 1, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

Really, the more I think about the curse, the more I think Regina got a real shit deal with that one. Should've read the fine print, dearie!

For real! She thought there would be eternal suffering. Little did she know she'd be stuck smack dab in her own Groundhog Day hell. I find it humorous that the "curse to end all curses" that takes away everyone's happy endings just sends everyone to Maine. I know it's more complicated than that, but I don't find the curse to be as bad as it was touted by Rumple and Regina. The irony is Regina was as miserable as everyone else, if not more.

Question: With David Nolan getting his fake memories back in The Shepherd, how was Rumple involved? And if so, why?

[ShadowFacts]

I always thought it was a super lame curse.  Regina killed her own father so she could get to a land where she could harm Snow and she harms her by taking away her memory.  Yeah, snap.  Her big kicks come from seeing David under a sleeping curse of sorts and Snow teaching kids.   She could have written a better deal, the one she came up with was a bit lacking in imagination for such a technicolor person as herself. 

[Shanna Marie]

I always thought it was a super lame curse.  Regina killed her own father so she could get to a land where she could harm Snow and she harms her by taking away her memory.

But what was stopping Regina from killing Snow during the curse? It seems she only set up the murder framing that would force Mary Margaret out of town, which would have been deadly, when she got desperate. She spent 28 years when she could have done something. Was it really about killing Snow, or was it about watching her not be happy? Regina's issue seemed to be that she didn't think she could have a happy ending because she'd decided she could only get one love. And therefore no one else was allowed to be happy, and Regina got some satisfaction from knowing they weren't happy, but of course could never truly be happy because you don't get true happiness from other people's suffering. You have to work on your own life.

 

It seemed kind of like the curse had a Somebody Else's Problem Field built in, so it was like the thoughts were deflected if anyone tried to think too hard about their past. David and Kathryn got given specific memories, but that was to derail him from being with Mary Margaret. I've wondered if Kathryn spent the whole curse believing that she had a husband who'd walked out on her and disappeared or if she was suddenly given those memories and made to think that's the way it had been all along. But otherwise, there was that vague sense that things had always been that way, of not remembering how something started, and nobody seemed to even notice anything weird about that until Emma showed up and started asking questions. Before, they might have started to think back on some past event, only to suddenly feel it wasn't important anymore.

[Mari]

I always thought it was a super lame curse.  Regina killed her own father so she could get to a land where she could harm Snow and she harms her by taking away her memory.  Yeah, snap.  Her big kicks come from seeing David under a sleeping curse of sorts and Snow teaching kids.   She could have written a better deal, the one she came up with was a bit lacking in imagination for such a technicolor person as herself. 

Replying in the magic thread. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

But what was stopping Regina from killing Snow during the curse?

 

She had the same thing going on in the Enchanted Forest. She could have just killed Snow herself, but she didn't. She could have killed right after Leopold died and ripped her heart out when she was hugging her. But no, she had to send a huntsman. Then later could have killed Snow at the stables, but no she had to give her an apple instead. I thought maybe her reasoning was that deep down she actually didn't want to kill Snow, and that she actually cared about her somewhat. But then the burning at the stake happened...

Edited September 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Fwiw, the writers have said that it was about watching Snow not be happy, for Regina.

[ShadowFacts]

And to me that's what's lame, not being happy is one thing.  But Snow wasn't drastically or even moderately unhappy.  She didn't remember, and David was in a coma for most of the time.  That to me was a boring, uncreative way of trying to make someone unhappy, and Regina did get bored in like 3 days.  So a twilight zone-y backfire of a curse.

[kili]

Why is there a flying monkey in the pilot when the curse is coming? If it's not a flying monkey, what is it?

 

There are flying monkeys early in the series. They put them in there to say that they had always planned to have them. Here is one interview where they said it:

 

Adam: If you go back to the pilot, it’s in there. When Emma crashes the car and the book is flipping pages, you’ll see flying monkeys. And you see it again in, I believe, the third episode of the series. We put the Oz mythology into the show at an early stage.

 

I always thought it was a super lame curse.

 

Yep, Rumple really conned her. She thinks she's getting the curse to end all curses and he's just looking for transportation without having to pay the cost himself. He doesn't give a crap if she gets what she wants so long as he gets what he wants. And really, it's impossible to feel sorry for Regina when her goals are so warped. Plus, Regina has known Rumple long enough that she should know not to trust him (naive villagers going for one of his deals, I feel sorry for, but Regina knew the score). I can see imp Rumple giggling about the trick he's playing on Regina many times while he was setting that one up.

[YaddaYadda]

I wonder, if Rumple had to cast the spell and Belle was still "alive", would he have gone there with her like Regina went there with her father?

[Serena]

I wonder, if Rumple had to cast the spell and Belle was still "alive", would he have gone there with her like Regina went there with her father?

Totally. If it was the one and only chance to see Bae, and he knew for sure he couldn't trick anyone else into doing it... totally.

[kili]

I wonder, if Rumple had to cast the spell and Belle was still "alive", would he have gone there with her like Regina went there with her father?

 

Would it have worked or would it have been like Regina killing her horse? I think that Bae was always "the thing" that Rumple loved the most (or perhaps it's dark magic that he loves the most). He loves Belle, but the fact that he broke of the "True Love Kiss" with her because he still wanted to find his son indicates to me that killing her would not have allowed him to cast the curse. Regina couldn't cast the curse herself in 3B because she "the thing" she loved the most was Henry and he wasn't around (and there is no way she was ever going to kill him anyway). Rumple is smart enough to know that, so he wouldn't have pointlessly killed Belle.

 

I think if you are willing to kill person A to reach person B, you by definition are not killing the one you love the most.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think if you are willing to kill person A to reach person B, you by definition are not killing the one you love the most.

 

Another reason Curse 2 is just loco.

 

If light magic was Zelena's weakness, why couldn't the fairies or Glinda defeat her? I don't understand why Regina has stronger light magic than the Good Witch of the South. Where the heck did the other two witches go after Glinda was banished?

Edited September 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

So how does the TLK work for Henry who didn't have his memories to break the curse and restore his memories, but works on neither Snow or Emma when they don't have their memories?

[kili]

So how does the TLK work for Henry who didn't have his memories to break the curse and restore his memories, but works on neither Snow or Emma when they don't have their memories?

 

It didn't. Henry had his memories restored by The Book (after being attacked by the monkeys and seeing Regina fling fireballs, he was ready to believe and his spell was broken when the Book was placed in his hands).

 

He already knew who Regina was when she kissed him. The TLK broke everybody else's memory curse that Zelena had cast.

Edited September 6, 2014 by kili

[KingOfHearts]

Why didn't Zelena have Walsh kill Emma? Why did she need Emma alive before the curse was cast?

[YaddaYadda]

Thanks Killi!  I still call BS though on that whole thing.

 

Why didn't Zelena have Walsh kill Emma? Why did she need Emma alive before the curse was cast?

 

Zelena couldn't kill Emma though, could she?  There was a whole schpeel about that in the Jolly Roger episode with the contrived lips curse where Hook comes to the conclusion that Zelena can't kill Emma and that's why she sent Walsh to guard her.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Zelena couldn't kill Emma though, could she?  There was a whole schpeel about that in the Jolly Roger episode with the contrived lips curse where Hook comes to the conclusion that Zelena can't kill Emma and that's why she sent Walsh to guard her.

I don't know why, though. I assumed when Hook said she couldn't kill her he meant Zelena needed her alive. I know Regina couldn't kill Emma in S1 because killing her would automatically break the curse, but that doesn't explain why Zelena couldn't kill her before the curse.

[Rumsy4]

 

Zelena couldn't kill Emma though, could she?  There was a whole schpeel about that in the Jolly Roger episode with the contrived lips curse where Hook comes to the conclusion that Zelena can't kill Emma and that's why she sent Walsh to guard her.

 

That was another dumb plot hole. In the land without magic, there were any number of ways by which Zelena could have gotten Emma killed (hire goons to shoot her down! Walsh poisons her!). At first, I assumed that Emma was somehow still the savior for the new curse, and that's why Zelena did not want Emma killed (the curse breaks if the savior dies, as per S1). But it turned out that she was not the savior. Regina broke Zelena's memory curse even without being the savior, or having a heart. 3B was a mess! 

Edited September 6, 2014 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Honestly, I always thought it had to do with the whole can't rip heart out which Cora tried.  The Land without Magic is no longer that now with Walsh being able to transform into a flying monkey right there in New York.  Seems like magic has seeped out of Storybrooke or at least that's what I think.

 

I find the whole thing ridiculous though because it makes everything so inconsistent.

[Dani-Ellie]

It is really inconsistent and it was definitely not explained why Zelena couldn't just kill her but my headcanon is that Emma's latent magic would have somehow protected her from a direct attack. Let's say Walsh tries to engineer a car accident; her magic jerks the car out of the way at the last minute and it just looks to memory-wiped Emma like a really lucky break. Let's say Walsh tries to poison her; her magic makes her drop the cup/plate/whatever, and she just figures it was a clumsy accident. Even if he'd hired someone to shoot her, her magic could have stopped the bullets and in the chaos, she would just think the shots missed. This also could explain why Zelena couldn't just take Emma's magic herself and needed Hook to do it (barring the obvious "let's throw in some Captain Swan angst" plot contrivance). Any of Zelena's attempts at taking her magic would have registered as an attack; Hook, depending on the circumstances, not so much (especially since in the end, it wound up being Emma's choice).

[Shanna Marie]

Zelena's whole plot requires a lot of handwaving.

 

To start with, if Emma was safely in the World Without Magic while everyone else was in the Enchanted Forest, why did she even need to be watched? If she's being watched, why not just take her out of the picture if she's the only real threat to Zelena's power?

 

Then why did Zelena screw up her own plan by telling everyone about it? Obviously, she's related to Regina, who also screwed up her own plan by getting in her own way and wanting it all instead of being okay at a certain point. But really, all Zelena did was show up to mwa-ha-ha at them and reveal her plan so they could act against her. If she'd just lurked quietly while obtaining her materials and then swooped in unexpectedly to snag the baby while they still didn't know there was a threat, she'd have been free and clear. I suppose Belle could have still warned them when Zelena showed up to take Rumple, but if she hadn't also been gloating to Regina, they never would have known Zelena was a threat to them. For all they knew, she was one of Rumple's past enemies, and if she'd disappeared after grabbing Rumple/Neal, they might not have known she was dangerous to them or up to something that involved them. If she hadn't been showing off on her broom, they could easily have put the baby to sleep in the nursery, and then she could have swooped in on her broom and grabbed him. All that gloating just added a lot of difficulty points and led to her defeat.

 

I prefer it when bad guys are defeated because the good guys are smarter and more skilled and maybe even nicer (so they have more allies), not because the bad guys are insane and stupid and trip over their own feet.

[KingOfHearts]

Why did Zelena even have to pretend to be a midwife? If she can toss Regina like a rag doll, sic the Dark One on people, and kiss curse Hook to remove the Savior, why was being in disguise to get closer to the baby necessary? Why not just kidnap Snow, hide her, and wait for the baby?

 

If there was no magic, being a midwife wouldn't have been a bad idea.

Edited September 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[retrograde]

I really think the show could have fixed two issues by having Walsh be a new person in Emma's life in New York City Serenade. 1) If the date Hook interrupted had been their first date and then their second date was supposed to be after she had taken the potion and he tried to kill her then, it would have been more believable that Walsh was just there to get rid of her, rather than that he spent an extraordinary amount of effort and time to make her fall in love with him, which never made any great sense as a strategy. 2) The fact that Emma didn't seem anywhere near as distressed as someone should that she had spent the last year in a relationship with a flying monkey who didn't actually love her. I mean, that should have been devastating (not to mention more than a little squicky).

 

Yes, they would have lost the marriage proposal that way, but I'm not really sure that would have had a massive impact on anything. I get that it was supposed to represent the culmination of the dream "normal" life that Emma wanted, but I think the fact that she was dating a seemingly nice, normal guy would have been enough. And I don't think it had any repercussions afterwards, other than a few barbs from Hook and that one conversation about whether she was considering it and her heart being broken, which was awkward anyway and could have been replaced with something similar. 

 

To bring things back on track, will we ever learn how someone on a presumably not large income will pay out the rest of her lease on that giant New York apartment? 

[YaddaYadda]

To bring things back on track, will we ever learn how someone on a presumably not large income will pay out the rest of her lease on that giant New York apartment?

 

Nope!

 

ETA - the whole marriage proposal, I often wondered if it wasn't done for Hook's benefit more than anything else.  I mean there were two things that happened in New York that made me wonder.  The first one was when she said she had a man she loved before she drank the potion and his reply to her which seemed a bit off (maybe?  This show gives me a headache) and then the whole proposal conversation.

 

On a personal level, for some reason, I never really pegged Emma to be the marrying type to begin with, so...I don't know what the writers were aiming at with that whole thing.

Edited September 6, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[retrograde]

The first one was when she said she had a man she loved before she drank the potion and his reply to her which seemed a bit off (maybe?  This show gives me a headache) and then the whole proposal conversation.

I thought his reply to the first one was in-character. He has been consistently hopeful that Emma's feelings were secretly as strong as his own -- I think, from his belief that their first kiss "meant something" to him attempting a TLK at her apartment. Also, he was just kinda desperate to get her to drink the potion, so I think he'd have argued against any objection she put up. 

 

The proposal conversation, though... blech. I didn't mind him asking, but his "Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm glad to hear you got your heart broken" line was just the worst. I know it was intended as romantic, but it fell way short, both because no one should ever enjoy seeing someone they care about get their heart broken and because that is simply a stupid measure of whether someone is capable of loving again. I assume that was a failure on the part of the writers, and not them trying to make Hook look like a dolt, but I have never been really sure. 

[KAOS Agent]

 

To bring things back on track, will we ever learn how someone on a presumably not large income will pay out the rest of her lease on that giant New York apartment?

 

That was a great apartment. She'd have no trouble finding someone to take over the lease. I'd also believe that Emma has quite a bit of money. Other than her incredible collection of leather jackets, Emma doesn't seem to spend money on anything. She "owns" her car, lived in an empty apartment in Boston and has no expensive hobbies. I expect that she'd have banked pretty much all her cash from her years as a bounty hunter. Having money in the bank would be very important to someone who'd lived on the streets and used to steal food to survive.  

[retrograde]

All good points, KAOS Agent. Though it occurs to me now that given their whole existence in New York was basically created through magic, Regina would have ultimately decided how much Emma had in her savings account, and there's no reason the think she wouldn't have made it a pretty generous figure. 

[KingOfHearts]

I always wondered how Emma could afford a ritzy high-floor apartment in Boston, then an even more expensive one in Manhattan. All Regina did was the fake memories.

Edited September 7, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[retrograde]

Surely faking that many years of existence, especially for Henry, involved more than just memories? School records, etc? 

[Souris]

I think all that is something we're supposed to hand-wave and not think about.

[KingOfHearts]

Why did Regina close the library?

[Serena]

Why did Regina close the library?

The less knowledge people have, the less chance they have of rebelling. That's why regimes like to keep the population ignorant.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The less knowledge people have, the less chance they have of rebelling. That's why regimes like to keep the population ignorant.

Yeah I thought about that. Maybe Regina was paranoid about the fairy tale books.

Edited September 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Why did Regina close the library?

She was also keeping Dragon Maleficent prisoner underneath it. You don't want to allow public access to the surface access to your secret prison.

 

How many secret prisons did she have, anyway? There was also the secret underground psych ward in the hospital. And where did she imprison Sidney after he "confessed" to framing Mary Margaret and kidnapping Kathryn? It wasn't at the police station.

[Dani-Ellie]

She kept him in the secret psych ward, if I remember correctly. When Jefferson releases Belle, he passes a door marked "S. Glass."

[Mitch]

Regina broke Zelena's memory curse even without being the savior, or having a heart. 3B was a mess!

 

Agreed. (though I think 3B was more entertaining the Isle of Potted Plants) but that can be handwaved away as it wasnt really a "curse," more like a spell (whats the dif, hell if I know, I would think a curse would be bigger) that she worked into the Curse at the last minute (how did she know they were re-casting the curse anyway???) Since it was Regina's curse it kind of (in a Once way) makes sense that her magic can break that spell.

 

My big question is..how did Walsh get to our world with no way to do so. Regina set up (re set?)  walls between the worlds. Is it because he was from our world? And how did he change back and forth from monkey to man?  I know its the two dorks thinking it was cool to have a monkey attack Emma but it would have been more Season 1 ish to have Walsh try to push her off the roof his old mortal self and he falls off during the fight.

[KingOfHearts]

 

but that can be handwaved away as it wasnt really a "curse," more like a spell

 

My definition of a curse is a spell that is intended to hurt people. Curse 2 didn't directly hurt anyone directly, which is why it's such a joke.

[Mitch]

My definition of a curse is a spell that is intended to hurt people. Curse 2 didn't directly hurt anyone directly, which is why it's such a joke.

 

True. but Regina and Snow cast it to just get back to our world to get to Emma, so it wasnt meant to hurt anyone as in Regina's original curse (which as people have said before, was a pitiful curse.."Oh, I am going to have indoor plumbing, never age, live in a quaint town in Maine and just have a general feeling of malaise??? Wow Regina, you are SCARY!!!")  So it was really just a reset of the Curse, and must be why the Merry Men didn't have modern clothing, etc...(might have been fun to see the people from Coradome sent to our world with no clue what the hell was going on and nowhere to live.) So, did Regina work in Zelena's punishment of being Ms. Gulch like living on a farm from watching the movie, did the curse do it using its knowlege of our cultural icons, or did Zelena just wip up that disquise when she landed here?)

[KingOfHearts]

After the curse broke, it was only hours before Snow and Emma went to EF, right? So how, in that time, did the EF folks build an entire camp under Cora's direction? In Lady of the Lake, Cora said she had been "looking for a way over [to Storybrooke] for a long time". They had just gotten unfrozen like two days before she said that.

Edited September 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

After the curse broke, it was only hours before Snow and Emma went to EF, right? So how, in that time, did the EF folks build an entire camp under Cora's direction? In Lady of the Lake, Cora said she had been "looking for a way over [to Storybrooke] for a long time". They had just gotten unfrozen like two days before she said that.

 

I assumed they got unfrozen when Emma got to Storybrooke.  So during S1, Mulan and Philip looked for Aurora and the Safe Haven was established.

[Shanna Marie]

So how, in that time, did the EF folks build an entire camp under Cora's direction? In Lady of the Lake, Cora said she had been "looking for a way over [to Storybrooke] for a long time". They had just gotten unfrozen like two days before she said that.

I've never been entirely clear whether they were totally frozen, like in suspended animation, or if they were like the people in Storybrooke, not aware of the passing of time and not changing. The dome seemed to have kept them from going to the other world and kept them aware of their identities, but the time part of the curse still seemed to apply. In either case, the part of the curse that had just been broken was the memories. Time started moving when Emma came to Storybrooke, and that may have been what started time moving in the dome, so the dome would have been down and time moving normally in the Enchanted Forest for however many months Emma had been in Storybrooke.

[KingOfHearts]

I assumed it was when the curse was actually broken, because of what this dialogue implied in Queen of Hearts:

Cora: "And the curse won’t last forever. It will end. In twenty-eight years, there’ll be a Savior. And she’ll break it."

Hook: "Twenty-eight years?"

Cora: "You won’t even notice. You’ll be frozen, like all those in this corner of the land. But, when the curse ends, our quest will resume."

 

The S1 theory is probably right, but I don't understand why the show didn't make it more clear.

Edited September 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Mulan said that time started moving and she and Philip had gone looking for Aurora. So, it looks like time started moving back in the EF around the same time as in Storybrooke. According to Cora, people inside the dome would not be aware of the passage of time. So, no identity loss, but people in the dome were frozen in time. 

[SilverShadow]

I think when the clock started running at the end of the pilot is when time unfroze for both Storybrooke and EF.

[KingOfHearts]

How did August know that Neal was Baelfire?

[angelwoody]

If the Wicked Witch was only terrorizing and threatening Snowing, their baby and those working with Snowing then why did they cast a curse to bring EVERYONE back to Storybrooke?  The poor people of the Enchanted Forest must have whiplash from being jerked from realm to realm at the whims of the royals.  Were the ordinary folks even asked if they wanted to return to Storybrooke or were they just scooped up by the new spell?