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Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From


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Why do Regina's wings always look so much better than Snow's bird nest?

I think it's because they're going for Snow being connected to nature--I listened to a season 1 commentary where they talked about how connected to nature Snow is, and that's why they did some stuff with her hair.

 

Apparently, that means combs are out.  Also, conditioners. 

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In Welcome to Storybrooke, there is a newspaper in the diner saying "October 23rd, 1983" as its date. If the paper is current, that's probably Emma's birthday.

 

October 23rd was also the premiere date for Once. In the flashback in Going Home for Henry, it's also shown as being in October.

 

23 is also a Lost number!

Actually, Emma's birthday is on October 22nd. Because Emma and Pinocchio arrived during daytime. Then the curse happened overnight (while Owen and his dad were in the tent) so the date in the newspaper is of the following day. Also, August's leg started to turn back into wood on October 24 at 8:15am when he was in Phuket; that was when time started moving again in Storybrooke because Emma decided to stay, and that was also one day after her birthday (so it was the 23rd in Storybrooke and the 24th in Thailand).

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They established that anyone who's been through the sleeping curse has those burning room nightmares. We saw it with Aurora, Henry and Snow. But David then went under the curse. Did he have the nightmares? Based on the timeline Snow mentioned, he might have still been having nightmares while they were all in Neverland. But I suspect they forgot that detail entirely.

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I imagine Aurora, Snow, Charming and Henry meeting up and having weekly night parties in the Burning Room.

Where they play "Disco Inferno" and "It's Getting Hot in Here" on repeat.

 

I'm not sure which is worse.

 

Wait.  Nelly is always worse.

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When Emma runs into Neal in New York, he mentions something about being a couple hundred years old. Generally, when we talk about Hook, we talk about 300 years trying to kill Rumple. Was that ever stated anywhere onscreen?

 

Bae landed with the Darlings in what was likely late Victorian/early Edwardian London, so maybe 100 years at most before the time he returned from Neverland. So we've got 100 years between Bae's visits to our world, but him saying he's 200 years old. We saw that he gave up on trying to count the days in his cave, so he may not know how long it was. Hook might have a better sense of how long, in Enchanted Forest time, he was gone, since he returned to the same world and would be able to tell how many years he'd been gone, and it's possible that time between our world and Neverland doesn't sync up.

 

But our world and the Enchanted Forest world seem to be in some kind of sync because real-time communication is possible (via mirror, when Emma was able to check on Ariel). I suppose there might be some kind of time zone portal so that it seems real-time but really isn't, or time passes differently so even if you're communicating directly, a month might pass here and a year might pass there between the times you talk, but I don't get that sense. Emma was in New York a year and Snow was in the Enchanted Forest just long enough to get pregnant and be almost to term.

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When Emma runs into Neal in New York, he mentions something about being a couple hundred years old. Generally, when we talk about Hook, we talk about 300 years trying to kill Rumple. Was that ever stated anywhere onscreen?

No--it's from Jane Espenson in an interview or on twitter.

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No--it's from Jane Espenson in an interview or on twitter.

Oh, of course. Why be silly and explain anything within the story itself when you can toss off a fact or two on Twitter.

 

Sometimes I think TV writers should be banned from using Twitter unless they're doing something fun like the "feud" between the Sleepy Hollow writers' room and the CSI writers' room (or was it another show and they were then going to form an alliance to take on the CSI writers? I forget, but it was funny). They shouldn't be allowed to use it as a crutch to shore up what they didn't manage to deal with in the scripts.

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To me, all the realms are still in time-sync with each other. Neal said "otherwise I'd be a couple hundred years old by now", but I think he was just not really thinking about it. He lost track of the time in Neverland, so he probably doesn't have a good grip on how long it's been. The whole "worlds have different time" thing just opens a can of worms that unfortunately would be an umbrella solution for a multitude of plot holes. I've really had no reason to suggest that it's the case, though.

 

What gets me is that the fairy tales occur after they were written in our world, so the authors predicted the future. (Snow White happened in the early 1980s, etc.)

Edited by KingOfHearts
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What gets me is that the fairy tales occur after they were written in our world, so the authors predicted the future. (Snow White happened in the early 1980s, etc.)

Or these events happen over and over again--except in our world, they manifest only as stories.  I think that's what the truly dreadful (IMHO) Battlestar Galactica ending was going for; life is basically the same story told over and over and over again.

 

 

Completely off topic, but this was bugging me--what exactly is the timeline between Neal sending Hook the note and the memory potion, Snow, David, and Regina recursing everyone, and Hook getting a bean and coming to New York?

 

Because it had to have taken Hook some time to get a bean.  How long were the Storybrookers back in town before Emma and Hook showed up?

Edited by Mari
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How do Storybrooke citizens have cellphones, modern fashions (not the store!) and internet service, if they were frozen in 1983?

 

So did Regina routinely go to Boston to see what's new? Did she see all the cell phones and say, "We need these! Cellphones for everyone!" and just pass them out to everyone in Storybrooke?

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How do Storybrooke citizens have cellphones, modern fashions (not the store!) and internet service, if they were frozen in 1983?

Maybe it was part of the curse.  They seemed to be in a pattern of a few days-a week, and Mary Margaret mentioned cleaning out her closet weekly.

 

In order for her to clean out her closet weekly, new stuff had to appear.  Maybe as things reached a certain level of obsolete, they were replaced with the new version when Monday rolled around.  (Because you know Regina had Snow cleaning out that closet every week on purpose.)

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Maybe as things reached a certain level of obsolete, they were replaced with the new version when Monday rolled around.

This is my assumption. I mean, Storybrooke has the Internet, you know? But the technology is also pretty behind cutting-edge (David's flip phone is never not hilarious1, but there are also a few other things--like the Betamax at the jail or a few things Emma noticed in S1). So I assume Storybrooke evolves with our world, but at a slower place.

Edited by stealinghome
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Maybe as things reached a certain level of obsolete, they were replaced with the new version when Monday rolled around.

 

Then... shouldn't they have iPhones?

 

(Keep in mind the curse didn't break until 2011)

Edited by KingOfHearts
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True--but lots of people don't have smartphones yet.  Maybe in 2011 smartphones hadn't reached the necessary saturation point.  (Some of us don't have cell phones at all.  Cell phones are one step closer to Skynet, and make the polite cells in your brain malfunction.)

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I'm getting nitpicky, but they still have their 80s cars too.

 

The Curse must have a mind of its own to just pick out what to replace and what not to. Too bad that sort of intelligence wasn't worked into Curse 2.

 

Regina: "I like my 80s car, and I want to keep it!"
 

Curse: "As you wish."

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Snow's heart was only half into casting it, so the Curse didn't feel like doing as much work.

LOL. So true. The Curse was like "Look, I've only got a piddly half of a heart to work with here. The right ventricle and some of the atrium. So do you want iPhones or roofs over your houses? You can't have both, people." 

Edited by FabulousTater
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So I assume Storybrooke evolves with our world, but at a slower place.

 

Sort of like me.  I had a phone very similar to David's until this last Christmas.  David and I are not early adapters. But I am curious where they send their cell phone payments, do they have dropped calls, and who is their internet service provider. 

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How do Storybrooke citizens have cellphones, modern fashions (not the store!) and internet service, if they were frozen in 1983?

 

 

I believe Storybrooke is designed to be a little timeless with a blend of a different decades. It gives it a "not quite right" vibe. Look at the stuff in the shops. The most telling is probably the general store which has products for sale that haven't been offered probably since the 50s. Here is a link to a picture.

 

So, it really is a production choice to have those older phones and cars.

 

I'm also reasonably sure I've seen rotary phones in the sheriff's station.

 

Goes with the betamax recording system.

Edited by kili
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Didn't David say in 3.12 that they woke up in Storybrooke the day before, or am I misremembering? Because I thought that was ridiculous, even before we found out what happened.

 

The second curse was ridiculously slow. There was time for Zelena to fly back to Rumple's castle and mix up a memory potion, then for Neal to send the note, the bird to fly to the Jolly Roger, then Hook to get the note, ditch his crew and outrun the curse. Slowest. Curse. Ever.

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Didn't David say in 3.12 that they woke up in Storybrooke the day before, or am I misremembering? Because I thought that was ridiculous, even before we found out what happened.

 

The second curse was ridiculously slow. There was time for Zelena to fly back to Rumple's castle and mix up a memory potion, then for Neal to send the note, the bird to fly to the Jolly Roger, then Hook to get the note, ditch his crew and outrun the curse. Slowest. Curse. Ever.

I think this is evidence for my theory that Emma restarted time when she, Henry, and Hook entered Storybrooke.  It was 8:15 on the clocktower--and I know that started off as  a Lost reference, but it has morphed into more than that.

 

Maybe they just experienced the same day over and over again, until she got there?

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Didn't David say in 3.12 that they woke up in Storybrooke the day before, or am I misremembering? Because I thought that was ridiculous, even before we found out what happened.

Especially since it was several days from the time Hook showed up to the time they got to Maine. He was there when they were making breakfast, then she had the date with Walsh that night, then the next day she found the camera and drank the potion, then that night she dumped Walsh and drank rum with Hook, and then they left for Maine the next morning.

 

Slowest. Curse. Ever.

That's what happens when you let amateurs cast curses. Without the evil intent, there just isn't the right amount of power driving them. Or maybe Zelena threw in a retardant when she put in her memory rider so she'd have enough time to rush home and whip up a protective potion and get her affairs in order.

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Didn't David say in 3.12 that they woke up in Storybrooke the day before, or am I misremembering? Because I thought that was ridiculous, even before we found out what happened.

I thought he said it had been a few days, actually. I never got the sense that they had been woken up that morning.

 

To be fair, Regina's original curse was pretty slow, too. I mean, there was enough time for Snow to give birth, for Charming to run the newborn to the wardrobe and be turned into a David kebob, and for an immediately-post-partum Snow to drag herself to Charming's side/try to wake him up/be gloated over by Regina!

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To me, all the realms are still in time-sync with each other. Neal said "otherwise I'd be a couple hundred years old by now", but I think he was just not really thinking about it. He lost track of the time in Neverland, so he probably doesn't have a good grip on how long it's been. The whole "worlds have different time" thing just opens a can of worms that unfortunately would be an umbrella solution for a multitude of plot holes. I've really had no reason to suggest that it's the case, though.

 

We know that Wonderland and our world were not because of Alice's return and how it was handled and how long she had been perceived to be gone.

 

We know Neverland and our world weren't in sync because Bae aged twenty years but was in our world twice in two separate centuries. Although I suppose Bae could have been in Neverland a hundred years.

 

All the fairy tale lands seemed in sync because passing between them didn't seem to have jumps into the future or past.

 

I tend to think that EF and Storybrooke got put in sync when the curse was cast and stayed that way.  Then by virtue of EF being in-sync with other fairy tale lands all those lands got in sync with our world too. This based on the time passing when Snow/Emma went EF being about the same as in Storybrooke. 

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We know Neverland and our world weren't in sync because Bae aged twenty years but was in our world twice in two separate centuries. Although I suppose Bae could have been in Neverland a hundred years.

 

 

But people don't age in Neverland. It's not that time doesn't pass in sync, but people just don't age. I agree he was in Neverland for a hundred years.

 

 

We know that Wonderland and our world were not because of Alice's return and how it was handled and how long she had been perceived to be gone.

Alice was only in our world once to retrieve the Knave's heart. When she returned to her home as a child, it wasn't our world - it was Victorian Novel World. They just said she was gone for a "very long time", and Alice didn't say otherwise.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Do we ever find out what exactly happened to Aurora? I mean, to put her in that sleeping curse Phillip wakes her up from in the first episode of season 2. When he wakes her, she says something along the lines of "I told you not to come after me" and mentions something about Maleficent coming after her mother too. So, what's the story there? Also, how did Phillip get his soul back?

Edited by JustaPerson
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Good question about Phillip's soul.  Apparently hearts and souls are a dime a dozen for these people, they are ripped out and messed with and returned like nobody's business.  And that storefront picture is a hoot, the butter is unrefrigerated in a sunny window and on the same shelf as detergent. 

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Do we ever find out what exactly happened to Aurora? I mean, to put her in that sleeping curse Phillip wakes her up from in the first episode of season 2. When he wakes her, she says something along the lines of "I told you not to come after me" and mentions something about Maleficent coming after her mother too. So, what's the story there? Also, how did Phillip get his soul back?

 

Yeah, there are quite a few unanswered questions regarding Aurora and Maleficent:

- why did Maleficent have a feud with Aurora's mother?

- why did Maleficent become evil?  Was she a fairy?  Did she know Blue?

- where are Aurora's parents now?

- what made Maleficent more repentant and the voice of reason compared to Regina?

- what is with Maleficent and the unicorn?

- why did Maleficent seemed to be repenting in Ep 2 yet put Aurora under sleeping spell?  why did she have against young Aurora other than hatred of the mother?

- how did Aurora and Philip meet?

- what was Aurora's backstory?  and Philip's?  

- how did Maleficent get the Dark Curse?  Why did Rumple give it to her?  How did she meet Rumple?

- how did Maleficent meet Regina?  How did they become "friends"?

- what happened to Maleficent when she was stabbed with sword by Emma?  what was that skeletal creature in the basement?  why did Maleficient become that?

- why did it take so long for Philip and Mulan to find Aurora post-Curse?

- how did Mulan and Aurora get Philip back?

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- how did Maleficent get the Dark Curse?  Why did Rumple give it to her?  How did she meet Rumple?

 

 

I can answer that one. In the second episode of the first season ("The Thing You Love the Most"), Regina goes to see Malificient. They snark at each other a bit (apparently, Malificient was about the same age as Snow is now when "Aurora got the best of her").

 

Regina traded the Dark Curse to Malificient for the Sleeping curse. It would appear that Malificient didn't know the source of the curse, so she may not have met Rumple (but he is everywhere, so I'm sure she has. She just doesn't know he created it). Regina does know that Rumple created the curse because she goes to him for help when it does not work.

 

Here is some of the transcript:

Evil Queen: Enough games. You know why I’m here. I need my curse back.

Maleficent: It’s not yours anymore. A deal’s a deal. I traded you my sleeping curse.

Evil Queen: Which failed. Undone by a simple kiss. Now please, return what’s mine.

[...]

Maleficent: Hidden for the good of all, old friend. Whoever created that monstrosity, makes the two of us look positively…moral. Who did give it to you?

Evil Queen: Where I got it’s none of your concern. Hand it back.

Edited by kili
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What gets me is that the fairy tales occur after they were written in our world, so the authors predicted the future. (Snow White happened in the early 1980s, etc.)

 

In the first season or so, I was wondering if maybe different realms like the Enchanted Forest and Earth, are unhooked in time, so Snow White in the Enchanted Forest would be timeless from our perspective... it could have occurred at any time in the past.  

 

But the Curse went to "find" where Bae (since he jumped into a portal which would cause him to travel through space AND time).  So the Curse thereby created a anchored time link between our world and the magical realms.  

 

I guess this theory would now be debunked since it seems like it's more straight-forward than that.  All these realms exist at the same time just on different planes of existence.

 

If they went by this theory, they could have had some fun with it.  The next time the Dark Curse is cast (probably next season already), it could send the characters to 1500s Earth, so they could experience our Medieval time period and maybe Regina could become friends with Queen Mary of England and bond over burning people at the stake.

Edited by Camera One
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I'd love a Snow Falls type episode to get Aurora and Philip's backstory. Also how exactly did Philip end up as that weird lion thing? I'm assuming Maleficent is the one who turned him into it.

Edited by JustaPerson
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I really expected that in Season 2.  I mean, in Season 1, they weren't really in the habit of bringing someone onto the show and then not even telling us their backstory.  We still haven't seen Mulan's backstory either (how she became a warrior).

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I'm hoping that the success of the Maleficent movie and the fact that the actress's other show is ending, plus the fact that Aurora (and presumably Philip, though we didn't see him) is now in Storybrooke could mean that 4B will tackle the Sleeping Beauty saga and answer all those questions. Maleficent could drag herself out of the library basement and come after Regina, and then in fairybacks we could find out all the stuff that happened in the past. Hey, Maleficent could get pissed off about not being invited to the christening of Philip and Aurora's baby! "But, you were a dragon. And dead. Um, your invitation got lost among all the curses and accidentally went to the Enchanted Forest?"

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 Hey, Maleficent could get pissed off about not being invited to the christening of Philip and Aurora's baby! "But, you were a dragon. And dead. Um, your invitation got lost among all the curses and accidentally went to the Enchanted Forest?"

 

"You know, bird post, so unreliable."

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Maleficent could drag herself out of the library basement and come after Regina, and then in fairybacks we could find out all the stuff that happened in the past. 

 

Her body rematerialized in the Enchanted Forest ever since Curse 1 got ripped up, and she's been hiding behind bushes ever since!

 

Please let it be so...

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OT, but was a reason ever given why Zelena couldn't just kill Emma? (you know, instead of having Monkey Boy scam on her or in lieu of Hook's stupid kiss curse).

I ask in here because I don't remember hearing a reason being stated in the show, BUT I also fast forwarded through a lot of the episodes 'cause I pretty much don't care about anyone else on the show outside of Emma (and somewhat about Hook), so maybe I just missed it.

Edited by FabulousTater
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OT, but was a reason ever given why Zelena couldn't just kill Emma? (you know, instead of having Monkey Boy scam on her or in lieu of Hook's stupid kiss curse)

 

Well, she probably heard about Emma being the Savior. In the original Curse, if the savior dies, the curse gets broken by default. So if the curse broke, everyone would know Zelena's weakness and identity. After they found out about Zelena, she couldn't kill Emma because she knew she could easily overpower her with her light magic. After Hook removed her powers in Kansas, she did not encounter Emma again until the battle at the barn, where Zelena frankly no longer cared about her because she was no longer a threat.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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but was a reason ever given why Zelena couldn't just kill Emma? (you know, instead of having Monkey Boy scam on her or in lieu of Hook's stupid kiss curse).

 

The stock answer would be, "Because she's Wicked, not Evil"?

 

I think KingofHearts' reason makes sense too.  Maybe Emma's light magic was weak, but maybe Zelena couldn't kill her outright with it.

 

The actions of the villains never make a whole lot of sense.  I mean, Cora didn't need Rumple's dagger to kill everyone in a smart enough way that Henry wouldn't suspect, so he would go running to Regina.  Or Cora could have pulled out everyone's hearts and controlled them, Henry wouldn't be none the wiser.  With Peter Pan, they could just BS that he was playing mind games or whatever.  

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Well, she probably heard about Emma being the Savior. In the original Curse, if the savior dies, the curse gets broken by default. So if the curse broke, everyone would know Zelena's weakness and identity.

Right, but Zelena sent Walsh after Emma only 3 months after the events of "Going Home", so before the idea of re-casting the curse was even on the table. Seems to me that would be the perfect opportunity to kill Emma. Like why send Walsh to woo her when he could've just killed her. Eliminate the threat before it becomes a threat, you know? But Zelena sent a minder instead.

 

she couldn't kill Emma because she knew she could easily overpower her with her light magic

But, Zelena has Rumpel and he could overpower Emma. In fact Zelena (via Rumpel's power) knocked Emma on her butt in the same episode she sent Regina through the clock tower. I just don't get it...

 

The answer is just contrived writing, isn't it.

 

...I don't know why I waste energy thinking about these things especially when I know the answer is really "because the writers said so." 

 

ETA:

I mean, Cora didn't need Rumple's dagger to kill everyone in a smart enough way that Henry wouldn't suspect, so he would go running to Regina.

I thought Cora just said that to sell her plan to Regina. Like, she just needed something to convince Regina to help her get the dagger, not that it was a Cora's true reason. But hey, you know, season 2. Nothing made sense in that season (or ever after).

Edited by FabulousTater
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Right, but Zelena sent Walsh after Emma only 3 months after the events of "Going Home", so before the idea of re-casting the curse was even an on the table. Seems to me that would be the perfect opportunity to kill Emma. Like why send Walsh to woo her when he could've just killed her. Eliminate the threat before it becomes a threat, you know? But Zelena sent a minder instead.

 

Exactly. Zelena could have easily gotten Emma killed in the Land Without Magic, if she was afraid that somehow Emma would regain her memories and come to the Enchanted Forest to defeat her, despite the "fact" that inter-realm travel had suddenly become impossible because Regina had reversed the Dark Curse.   

Edited by Rumsy4
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But, Zelena has Rumpel and he could overpower Emma. In fact Zelena (via Rumpel's power) knocked Emma on her butt in the same episode she sent Regina through the clock tower. I just don't get it...

I think Zelena was just paranoid. Emma was the only Achilles heel for her, so that's why she needed that kiss curse. If Zelena just used the Dark One to kill everyone but the ones who had her ingredients, she could have been gloating over Eva's dead body by now. The fact she didn't kill one person is because she'd rather throw it in their face how "awesome" she is. That was her downfall, and in the end, it was her undoing. If she would have just killed Regina instead of giving her the dumb "It's who I am, and it's who you are!" speech, she could have won.

 

Maybe she thought Emma was the innocence ingredient because she's the product of True Love, so she had Walsh keep tabs on her while she got other ingredients. When she found out Snow was pregnant, she might have changed plans.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Maybe she thought Emma was the innocence ingredient because she's the product of True Love, so she had Walsh keep tabs on her while she got other ingredients. When she found out Snow was pregnant, she might have changed plans.

 

Now I'm just trying to imagine Zelena strapping Emma down into that crop circle travesty and calling her "the final ingredient".  

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