S04.E02: Arkangel

[knaankos]

7 hours ago, ganesh said:

I don't even know if I'd call the daughter that much of a rebel prior to her snapping. 

Yeah true. Even that is a stretch. She got along well with her mom and seemed to be doing well in school. She just got one of those high school crushes which literally every teen gets and affects their judgement. 

[DrSpaceman73]

Not my favorite episode. 

It was OK, but seemed predictable where it was going the whole time

Also agree that she did not look 15 in the later years, thought she was older. 

There is also the fact there was nothing really too special or original about how she was using the device when she was older.  You can't see everything that is going on, but phone tracking apps pretty much do the same thing.  And there is the fact we saw this pretty much exact same device in an earlier season episode, where it tracks everything the person is doing, they just do it in adults and voluntarily.  We even saw similar technology with the filtering in one episode, I think the Christmas one, where people had everything blacked out in front of them.  Which confused me because then here they said this device never caught on or was  banned?  I guess I am confused, I thought all these shows are supposed to be in the same pseduotimeline and universe, even though its not a true serial show, they are individual episodes.  I just go the impression from watching the episodes up to now with the same concepts and technology in different forms being used there was kind of a near future "Black Mirror" Universe where all this occurs.  it has not been stated, but certainly implied.  But here they explicitly seem to go against that with this device never being used long term.

The "filtering" when she was younger was interesting, and of course a comment on helicopter parenting and how kids need to experience the good and bad to learn. 

[DrSpaceman73]

On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 9:43 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Helicopter parenting at its most extreme.  

Of course all parents want to protect their kids and to start with a parents worst nightmare of losing their kid even for just a moment was the right place to start at because it made you sympathize with Marie.  Even  in theory putting a gps on a very young child isn’t a horrible notion it is the “added” bells and whistles that are a little creepy even for a child.  It might seem funny to watch a child plays hide and seek but to turn off what they see is all kinds of dangerous and doesnt allow them to process emotions correctly.

 I thought the scene where Sara was shown the unrestricted internet all at once was very telling.  We usually see it in bits and peices not in one big scary moment.  

And when Sara became a teenager. Having mom grab for the technology again at first blush and then going full helicopter mom.  I have no sympathy for her and how things turned out.  Well I have some.  It’s just that the outcome was predictable.   You take a child and don’t teach them how to process the world correctly and then try to control every part of who and what they are.  This is what happens.  

Ironically a parents worst nightmare.  

The point about grabbing for technology and trying to control them is important and one I had not considered during the episode, but I think it gets at the heart of the story and the point of it

Someone else may have mentioned it as well, can't find the exact comment, but the mom (Rosemarie Dewitt, to me best known as Midge from mad men) really was not parenting.  She was trying to rely on technology to do it for her, then when she found out her daughter had a problem, she tried to "fix" it for her instead of helping her learn to deal with things on her own. 

We saw the same pattern when she was younger, and she turned off the technology and she actually developed into a more healthy and "normal" teenagers in terms of integrating into the social group of high school.  Yes, she cussed, and had crushes, and lied and went to far to have sex with an older boyfriend.  Not good things, but things that happen often.  She still seemed to have a happier and more healthy life as a teenager after the device was turned off. 

But then yes, she starts having problems again and instead of dealing with it, she just watches and intervenes without even discussing it with her. 

I think the point can be the technology can be helpful, its just a tool.  It doesn't replace actual parenting. 

One thing I thought about later and missed on first view, did the arkangel tell the mom she was pregnant?  I assume that is the case now and Sara never actually knew it.  I was a bit confused on that while watching. 

[DrSpaceman73]

10 hours ago, knaankos said:

I think this episode and premise had more potential than it delivered on. In the end it only created fairly basic mother/tenn daughter problems that could happen today. A modern day mom could easily find out about her daughter lying without Arkangel technology, if not actually see her daughter having sex (which btw they could have made a more damaging thing but shied away from exploring that too much.) I don't think they explored enough possible issues with this technology. And the daughter was way too normal if they really wanted to make a point about the dangers of this technology. I mean she was a normal teen without social issues, with a rebel streak. They showed sigs of her maybe developing issues as a young girl, but then never explored those again,

I pretty much agree and is part of what I was trying to say before as the reason I was only lukewarm to the episode. 

This could be any teenager and any family in the last 100 years, with or without the technology.  It didn't seem to have a huge influence on the overall story. 

[Dobian]

This was the first episode of the new season I watched as it was getting late and episode one is kind of long.  I thought it did a great job with the recurring theme of bad things happening when technology is abused.  And the technology is very believable and something I could see being used for real in the near future (we already have i.d./tracking for pets and kids).  I thought the tone of the single mom-daughter relationship was done right.  Mom was traumatized by an event early in her daughter's childhood that put her on this path.  When she saw that constantly monitoring and censoring what Sara saw was having negative consequences for her, she turned the thing off and put it away.  It was the fear of not knowing her teenage daughter's whereabouts that prompted her to use it again, which was understandable.  So she kept quiet about it until she saw the drug use, which sent her over the edge.  The problem is that mom is passive-aggressive, confronting the boyfriend (who I thought was wisely portrayed not as some predatory monster but as just an ordinary and actually pretty decent kid who made a few mistakes and was goaded into things by Sara), slipping her daughter the abortion pill when the software told her she was pregnant.  She never spoke to Sara directly on anything, instead relying on technology to try and control her from behind her tablet screen.  This was a total betrayal of Sara's trust and made the ending believable to me.  I agree that the actress playing 15 year old Sara looked closer to 20 than 15.  Maybe it would have helped if they made Sara 17 in the story.  Other than that, I thought it was a pretty good cautionary tale.  The ethics behind not only monitoring your children's whereabouts but watching what they see and controlling what their brains process is scary on an even bigger scale, especially since this technology could be implanted in anyone without their knowing it.  I think the fact that they made both the daughter and mother pretty normal and didn't go over the top with melodrama made it work for me.  In a sometimes subtle way, fear can motivate people to do things that they think are right, and sometimes technology can give them the tools to do those things with undesirable consequences.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Dobian

[Pike Ludwell]

Another plot based on people making stupid decisions and not communicating effectively. All the fuss and turmoil could have been so easily avoided. I grow weary of this sort of thing and I just want to scream at the idiots w t freak are you doing?

Edited January 7, 2018 by riverclown

[PreBabylonia]

On 31/12/2017 at 9:55 PM, benteen said:

I can't believe she's only 55.  Mind you, it's not because she looks old (she certainly doesn't) but it's because it feels like Jodie Foster's been around forever.

This episode was fine but I wasn't crazy about it.  The technology and the issues that it raised though were fascinating.  Marie is definitely the worst kind of parent and this brought out the very worst in her.  Her concern is understandable and every parent would want to be able to locate their kid instantly if they became lost.  But filtering what she sees and hears to protect her?  Inexcusable.  This isn't like just for scary movies...you can't hide kids from seeing unpleasant things and it's the only way they are going to learn and grown.  Giving her an anti-pregnancy pill without her consent?  Even more inexcusable and creepy.  Marie deserved to losing her Sara.  I'm glad Sara didn't kill her though as I don't think that would have been necessary for the story.  But she probably should have taken that tablet too because I sure as hell wouldn't have left that with Marie.

 

On 01/01/2018 at 5:11 PM, DEM said:

The casting of oldest Sara was a big failing of this ep. I thought she was supposed to be 18. Even though I understood Mother's panic when she called all over creation and couldn't find Sara, knowing the kid was 15 would have made the situation feel even more dire.  And then porno-sex and narcotics?  That's not la-di-da 15-year-olds will be fifteen stuff.

The main issue for me, as others have stated, was the lack of communication.  It wasn't the tech, per se. Marie's controlling nature was secondary to and arguably symptomatic of failure to engage in open and honest communication.  When she visited the doctor and realised how damaging the software was to her daughter's development, she immediately stowed the thing away.  It wasn't until several years later under extreme stress that she pulled it out again.  Don't real-world parents use GPS apps for their minor children's phones?  Where Marie failed was not following up with Sara, and then she made matters worse by going behind Sara's back.

Agreed. I enjoyed it but expected so much more, especially since I have been reading about this episode for months - probably because Jodie Foster is the director. It wasn't as wildly fantastic as I expected.

 

On 04/01/2018 at 8:48 AM, AllyB said:

So glad other people mentioned the child at the start being too old for the stroller as it looked very off to me too. Though I think Aniya Hodge who played the young Sara was probably about 18mo older than the character she was playing so that made her look 4 going on 5 rather than 3 like the character. Either way it was ridiculous that she was in a baby's high chair while beAgreed. I enjoyed it but expected so much more, especially since I have been reading about this episode for months - probably because Jodie Foster is the director. It wasn't as wildly fantastic as I expected.ing spoon fed her meal of green goop. (Though she was super well behaved for not pouting or yelling in outrage when the Arkangel doctor(?) switched Simmer and Shine over to the war scenes without warning her.)

I was wondering through the latter half why these future teens had such a Gen X culture. Their music, fashion, hair, lingo, drug choices, body language was all soooo 90s. I know fashions are cyclical but apart from the teens having smartphones identical to those we use today, everything about their lifestyle was right out of my teens and fashions don't recycle that identically. It was really jarring.

Other than that I agree with those who thought the premise had more potential than the story we were shown. The story of a teen rebelling and running away from a parent who attempts to control them is one we've all seen a thousand times and there was nothing especially new added by the addition of advanced technology. The more interesting stories about increased judgement in terms of the child's health, the mental health implications of growing up with half the world hidden from you, the fact that Marie partially used the technology to avoid much of the real work of parenting were all the more interesting stories that the premise could have yielded. 

I am not surprised that the mom would use the stroller as long as she did. I distinctly remember a lot of the other mothers doing that when I was taking my boys to school. It was much easier for them to control them that way. Also contributed to their kids having low energy and not being in very good shape. They were bribed to stay in there with juices and candy, now I suppose parents use electronics to keep them amused. 

And yes, shocking that Jodie is now 55! The first movie I ever saw featured Jodie as a young girl rescuing a lion - it was called Napoleon and Samantha. (Napoleon was the lion, naturally). It costarred a young and hot looking Michael Douglas. Where has the time gone?!!

6 hours ago, Dobian said:

This was the first episode of the new season I watched as it was getting late and episode one is kind of long.  I thought it did a great job with the recurring theme of bad things happening when technology is abused.  And the technology is very believable and something I could see being used for real in the near future (we already have i.d./tracking for pets and kids).  I thought the tone of the single mom-daughter relationship was done right.  Mom was traumatized by an event early in her daughter's childhood that put her on this path.  When she saw that constantly monitoring and censoring what Sara saw was having negative consequences for her, she turned the thing off and put it away.  It was the fear of not knowing her teenage daughter's whereabouts that prompted her to use it again, which was understandable.  So she kept quiet about it until she saw the drug use, which sent her over the edge.  The problem is that mom is passive-aggressive, confronting the boyfriend (who I thought was wisely portrayed not as some predatory monster but as just an ordinary and actually pretty decent kid who made a few mistakes and was goaded into things by Sara), slipping her daughter the abortion pill when the software told her she was pregnant.  She never spoke to Sara directly on anything, instead relying on technology to try and control her from behind her tablet screen.  This was a total betrayal of Sara's trust and made the ending believable to me.  I agree that the actress playing 15 year old Sara looked closer to 20 than 15.  Maybe it would have helped if they made Sara 17 in the story.  Other than that, I thought it was a pretty good cautionary tale.  The ethics behind not only monitoring your children's whereabouts but watching what they see and controlling what their brains process is scary on an even bigger scale, especially since this technology could be implanted in anyone without their knowing it.  I think the fact that they made both the daughter and mother pretty normal and didn't go over the top with melodrama made it work for me.  In a sometimes subtle way, fear can motivate people to do things that they think are right, and sometimes technology can give them the tools to do those things with undesirable consequences.

Mom's neurotic behaviour showed up much earlier - in the first scene. She instantly thought something was wrong, while they were assessing Sarah on the Apgar Scale. Thought the acting was very impressive here, from both leads but especially the daughter. Agree with everyone else though. Sarah looked to be about 18 at least. Considering that she dressed like one of the women on Sister Wives, I think Trick's attraction to her was based on her personality not looks. They bonded early I think, thru Trick introducing her to the real world. Possibly one of those forever loves that you sometimes see - and her mother destroyed it.

I also think that Sarah believes she has killed her mother. With the loss of her mom and her love, she has nothing to lose. I'd like to imagine that it would turn out alright for her eventually, but I really doubt it. Her mother has raised her without survival skills and getting picked up by a random trucker looks ominous.

Edited January 7, 2018 by PreBabylonia

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, riverclown said:

Another plot based on people making stupid decisions and not communicating effectively. All the fuss and turmoil could have been so easily avoided. I grow weary of this sort of thing and I just want to scream at the idiots w t freak are you doing?

Sadly, in real life people don't communicate appropriately and make stupid choices all the time.  I can give examples from personal experience.

[Anela]

6 hours ago, Dobian said:

Sadly, in real life people don't communicate appropriately and make stupid choices all the time.  I can give examples from personal experience.

Yep. I've been dealing with this in my life for the past few months, but also my entire life. I think I'm communicating, but there is selective hearing, or just plain not listening or caring. Hence my comment before about how I would be tempted to use this is if I were paranoid. I don't have kids, though. 

[Pike Ludwell]

20 hours ago, Dobian said:

Sadly, in real life people don't communicate appropriately and make stupid choices all the time.  I can give examples from personal experience.

Sounds like you misunderstood my point in that you think I don't realize people act irrationally. I don't want that impression left because it makes me look naive, so I am responding to clear my  name! LOL Just because people act irrationally doesn't mean I like to watch shows with people acting irrational in the way and to the extent these folks did, and there are plenty that aren't so much driven by characters' irrationality.  To each his own.

Edited January 8, 2018 by riverclown

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, riverclown said:

Sounds like you misunderstood my point in that you think I don't realize people act irrationally. I don't want that impression left because it makes me look naive, so I am responding to clear my  name! LOL Just because people act irrationally doesn't mean I like to watch shows with people acting irrational in the way and to the extent these folks did, and there are plenty that aren't so much driven by characters' irrationality.  To each his own.

Well the point the story was making is that the power of this technology can be an irresistible temptation for many people.  The mom wasn't ridiculously irrational, you have to put yourself in the shoes of a single parent.  She even turned the thing off when her daughter got older because she knew that the monitor had a downside, so they did portray her as being pretty normal and a little overprotective, not a totally over the top control freak.  Having had a teenage daughter myself, I know what goes through your head when it's late and they aren't home and not returning your calls.  If she didn't have Arkangel, then that whole situation plays out differently with her confronting her daughter when she got home.  But with Arkangel, she can avoid the confrontation and just spy on her, not realizing the potential pitfalls of doing this.  It's a tree of knowledge of good and evil thing, the temptation was put before her and she couldn't resist.  That's one of the dangers of technology and the power it can give to a person.

[Pike Ludwell]

I see your point on the general idea of how technology of this sort can disrupt normal human interactions.  I think the story was trying to go the direction you mention, but the story was flawed in that it did not adequately show that particular technology leading to the final events. It should have been obvious to any normal parent in that position that the girl would or quite possibly could be severely hurt if she has no idea of why the boyfriend is rejecting her. The technology does not inextricably lead to that lack of consideration . And the girl attacking the mother ... I guess  you have to assume that maybe the childhood filtering of bad scenes, and any kidding she received from having the technology caused a latent psychosis within her, but the story did not make that clear enough. She seemed normal now and over it, and then BOOM!

[Paloma]

On 12/30/2017 at 3:24 PM, leighdear said:

But why didn't she call Trick after she found out what her mother did?  I would think he & his van would be around pronto to pick her up.  And she should have taken the tablet with her, no matter that it was broken. 

He probably wouldn't have answered--remember that her mother warned him that she would report him to the police if he didn't stay away from Sara. She told him to hang up if Sara called and to tell her to go away if she came to see him, and that's what he did (although he was obviously distressed about it). I think there was a scene of him deleting Sara's messages. The threat of being convicted and imprisoned for drug dealing (and maybe statutory rape depending on their ages) would probably be scary enough to keep him from answering any future calls from Sara. Of course, Sara could have tried to go see him again and tell him what happened--but then she's have to tell him she killed her mother (or tried to), which doesn't bode well for their romantic future. That's probably part of why Sara hitchhiked to get out of town--not only was she furious, but she thought she had killed her mother.

On 1/2/2018 at 10:57 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Yeah, I knew that Marie would bring out the tablet again once Sara started rebelling, as it was very telling when she put the tablet away instead of smashing it and tossing it in the garbage. If she really meant to stop using Arkangel, she would have completely gotten rid of it.

I didn't think of this before, but considering that the implant is permanent even if the technology is banned, what's to stop anyone who steals a tablet or gets hold of a discarded tablet from hacking into the system and stalking people with implants. Imagine the possibilities for crimes such as blackmail, rape, and murder.

As a helicopter parent myself, I completely understand the wish to monitor your child's whereabouts and safety/health at all times (my "child" is now 33 and lives halfway across the world, and I still feel that way, though I've learned to accept that I can't and shouldn't do this). But even I would not want to see things through her eyes or prevent her from seeing anything negative in the real world. As others have said, communication is most important, and that includes allowing your child to make mistakes (hopefully learning from them) and helping your child deal with the inevitable distressing things that will happen in her life. 

[Jsage]

One plot hole (small, but still) that bothered me was when Marie called all those other parents asking if they had seen Sara. Marie doesn't mention it when Sara gets home so Sara remains oblivious to her mom's snooping. But Sara should have been alerted that something was up as soon as her best friend told Sara her parents knew she wasn't where she was supposed to be. And there's no way not one of those parents mentioned to their children that night or the next day that Marie was looking for Sara. Teenagers are smart enough to warn Sara right away so she can come up with a plausible story to tell her mom.  

Edited January 9, 2018 by Jsage

[nicgwatchingtv]

Liked this episode and felt genuinely terrible for Sara even before she realized that her mother was watching her again/still. 

On 1/9/2018 at 2:49 PM, Jsage said:

One plot hole (small, but still) that bothered me was when Marie called all those other parents asking if they had seen Sara. Marie doesn't mention it when Sara gets home so Sara remains oblivious to her mom's snooping. But Sara should have been alerted that something was up as soon as her best friend told Sara her parents knew she wasn't where she was supposed to be. And there's no way not one of those parents mentioned to their children that night or the next day that Marie was looking for Sara. Teenagers are smart enough to warn Sara right away so she can come up with a plausible story to tell her mom.  

That hole really bugged me too. Parents would have talked, Sara's friends would have talked and Sara would have been suspicious.  Even a really honest kid would have caught on sooner to an overly-informed mother sooner. 

I also have trouble imagining that Marie went years without 'plugging into' Sara's chip but immediately went for it as soon as she couldn't find Sara for a few minutes. Not with what an addict she whenever she had it in her hands. I just do not believe she would have left the tablet alone. (That scene when Sara is trying to text Trick and is lying in her bed all sad and looking at her phone and terrible Marie curls up in bed to see what she's reading....awful)

I I did like Trick and Sara as a couple. The childhood playground bonding between them really sold me on the idea that they'd be drawn to each other later, when older, and they seemed really charming  together. I can imagine that they helped each other.  I felt terrible for him when Marie came tearing into him, leaving him no way to even tell Sara that she was being stalked by her mother without risking jail time for the drug dealing. I like to imagine that with another day or so he would have told Sara's friends who would have found a way to let her know. 

But I think that they entire episode would have been much better if they'd put Trick and Sara both in their early 20s. Maybe they made Sara so young so that it was  believable that her mother was getting away with being a full on stalker, but neither Trick nor Sara in any way passed for 15-18--not in looks or mannerisms-- and it was distracting as hell.

Edited January 17, 2018 by nicgwatchingtv

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Featurette:

[ganesh]

10 hours ago, nicgwatchingtv said:

Maybe they made Sara so young so that it was  believable that her mother was getting away with being a full on stalker, but neither Trick nor Sara in passed in any way passed for 15-18--not in looks or mannerisms-- and it was distracting as hell.

I had assumed he was a year ahead, so he had a job while she was a senior in college, so they were friends in elementary school through high school. It means he's 3 years older? I just wasn't seeing that at all.

[toolazy]

The actress is 21.  Way too old to be playing a 15yo.

[Chaos Theory]

Maybe because I don’t really care but I had no problem believing that the actress was 15.  

[ganesh]

I don't have a problem with an older actor playing a teen, but I had no indication that she was supposed to be 15. I thought she was an HS senior. 

[Meedis]

On 1/23/2018 at 3:02 PM, toolazy said:

The actress is 21.  Way too old to be playing a 15yo.

Heh not unheard of though....thinking of the actors on 90210....Stacey Dash during her Clueless days...Bianca Lawson on PLL who was in her mid-30's playing a teen.     I guess they could've picked a better older actress who could marginally pass for 15 if they didn't want an actual 15 yo.

[Superpole2000]

I liked the concept and wish it was done with more subtlety. The disturbance filter, which is incredibly unrealistic "technology", was the sledgehammer this idea didn't need. Just the technology to monitor your child was what I wanted to see play out. At what age does child monitoring become a negative? Clearly, most of society is good with monitoring helpless infants, so where does the monitoring start to invade privacy too much?

[Kel Varnsen]

On 1/4/2018 at 9:20 AM, LadyArcadia said:

On another note, at the end I was convinced that the filter would flip to on as it broke and Sara would be stuck with it on.  It was more tense to think that was going to happen than it actually happening. So well done, show.

I thought the same thing. Especially when they implied earlier that the company wasn't really around anymore. I am glad they didn't though since it would be too much like John Hamm in White Christmas. Her running away and assuming her mom was dead and having to live with that was the better way to go. Although I can't see a 15 year old leaving the house without their cell phone and since it looks like she didn't have a job mom probably pays for it. So I assume it wouldn't be too hard to find her.

[Neurochick]

When I first watched this episode, it really didn't stick with me.  I watched it again yesterday and this time it did stick with me.  I thought about how people use technology to parent their children instead of, parenting them.  I can see a parent wanting to use Arkangel to see where their child is, but only for that, the filtering stuff was just stupid.  Why not just have a conversation with your child about violent images?  Why couldn't Marie have told Sara that when she didn't answer her phone, she reactivated Arkangel and saw where Sara was.  Why not just talk to Sara honestly about sex?  Who is this boy?  How old is he?  I think you're too young for him.  Are you being safe if you are having sex, etc.  

I really loved the ending.  Despite everything Marie thought she was doing FOR Sara, her daughter winds up hitchhiking, and getting into a stranger's truck, no problem there huh?

Another question is why Marie never seemed to age, but that's another story.

[wrlord]

Wow. Is EVERY episode of this show about blocking or distorting people's vision?  Getting old.