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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

ArctisTor

By ArctisTor
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apinknightmare
apinknightmare

I mean, I don't want her in a suit so it's not the "never" in this instance that bothers me, but Marc saying that Felicity specifically would make the notion of superheroics "silly." Why? In this show

Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

And then someone tells him that what he did was okay because of reasons, or that he can't keep feeling guilty, he just has to move forward. Like, no, just...go ahead and feel really guilty for awhile?

SleepDeprived
SleepDeprived

Hey, now... Listen. The practice of proper etiquette during an impromptu wedding officiated by your best friend in a park, right after the funeral of a beloved colleague, is of the utmost importance,

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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

Yeah. Laurel's actually the one who named her White Canary, haha. 

Jbuffyangel really needs to work in politics. None of her theories ever turn out to be correct, but she always spins them as correct. It's kind of amazing.

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Starfish35

Starfish35

(edited)

It's a decent start, but it's not as good as I was hoping, considering shows always fall after their premieres (unless they're named Empire). I didnt really expect it to beat Flash's premiere numbers (1.9) but I was hoping for a little more than that.

Still, it's hardly a bomb. :)

Edited by Starfish35
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wonderwall

wonderwall

Okay, that was weird. And disturbing, I find it weird when someone is so desperate for any woman's death, even a fictional one. 

 

I mean, Laurel being a woman has nothing to do with it... And I think a lot of people who don't like certain characters are desperate for them to die. In 4A people were desperate for Felicity to die, hell some of them still are, claiming that now Felicity in the limo is a figment of Oliver's imagination. People tend to spin ideas when they really want something. 

 

I guess some people get very into fandom that they tend to get passionate (resulting in things like the aforementioned meta). I don't really see anything wrong with that.

 

Where I get annoyed though is when people just don't admit they're wrong :p I'm not a fan of the person who wrote that post. But do admire her ability to spin.

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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

It's a decent start, but it's not as good as I was hoping, considering shows always fall after their premieres (unless they're named Empire). I didnt really expect it to beat Flash's premiere numbers (1.9) but I was hoping for a little more than that.

SHHHHHHHHH!

 

It's an enormous amazing hit, Guggie! Go go go!

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tarotx

tarotx

Lot is expensive (a 23 episode budget with just 16 episodes of advertisement) so I'm not sure how the CW feels about the ratings. LOT's number's are about double the average of want was on Thursday. And that is with mediocre reviews. We'll see how it'll stand the next two weeks. 

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

(edited)

Yeah. Laurel's actually the one who named her White Canary, haha.

Which of course will be used to feed the theory that Laurel's death will have Sara become the Black Canary and take up the name Dinah to "honor" Laurel. Haven't watched yet but I heard part of Laurel's speech was that Laurel became the Black Canary for Sara...so you know it it makes sense that Sara eventually becomes the Black Canary for Laurel... Edited by Morrigan2575
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jaytee1812

jaytee1812

I mean, Laurel being a woman has nothing to do with it... And I think a lot of people who don't like certain characters are desperate for them to die. In 4A people were desperate for Felicity to die, hell some of them still are, claiming that now Felicity in the limo is a figment of Oliver's imagination. People tend to spin ideas when they really want something. 

 

Of course Laurel being a woman is relevant, the same when it happens to Felicity. Hate for Laurel in particular usually comes from internalised misogyny. She's hated for having her own opinion, daring to question the great hero of her show, and she's shown she can cope without him. The hate for Felicity usually comes when she's not 'the perfect girlfriend'. 

 

Search these forums, find me a forum where the most hated character in any show is a straight white man. 

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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

Search these forums, find me a forum where the most hated character in any show is a straight white man. 

 

The 100, but they took care of that problem.

 

I don't dispute your point--I think there is a lot of misogyny that comes into play in the hatred of female characters, but look what happens when female characters are prioritized: the thinly-written male character gets the most hate. I think the issue is more complex than to simply put it on the fans to love/root for/defend every female character on every show, because often structural sexism is working against us at the creator-level.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

Agent Carter, The 100, Jessica Jones, Supergirl (I don't believe I've seen any hate for any of the female characters on that show. I could definitely be wrong)...

 

But as Carrie Ann said, these shows are female led... 

Edited by wonderwall
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FurryFury

FurryFury

Search these forums, find me a forum where the most hated character in any show is a straight white man.

 

Finn was the most hated character on The 100 until the show acknowledged that and killed him off. These boards really hate Simpson on Jessica Jones (I don't, but whatever). For most people i know, Duncan was the worst character on Veronica Mars by far, and I think many viewers agree (I wasn't around when the show first aired). Riley on Buffy during his seasons. Etc.

 

I can't agree with you point on Laurel because here particularly (and on TWOP before that) people hate Laurel because she's simply a badly written character. That's all. 

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looptab

looptab

(edited)

I'm sure there is some misogyny involved, but I think most of the people who hate Laurel hate her because she is an awful character.

Eta: or what people above me said :)

Edited by looptab
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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

(edited)

Of course Laurel being a woman is relevant, the same when it happens to Felicity. Hate for Laurel in particular usually comes from internalised misogyny. She's hated for having her own opinion, daring to question the great hero of her show, and she's shown she can cope without him. The hate for Felicity usually comes when she's not 'the perfect girlfriend'. 

 

Search these forums, find me a forum where the most hated character in any show is a straight white man. 

RAY PALMER.

 

He was generally pretty strongly disliked on Arrow, and I hate him more than I can remember ever hating any character on any show I have ever watched. I hate him so much that I will never watch a minute of LoT. I hate him so much that I now hate Brandon Routh and want to punch his punchable face.

 

Straight white dude. And I'm a straight white woman. HAAAATE him.

 

Btw, I get a lot of guff around here bc I cannot stand Oliver half the time. I MOST CERTAINLY do not dislike Laurel bc she "question the great hero of her [sic] show." Or has her own opinions. I dislike her intensely bc she's a ridiculously inconsistent, other than being consistently stupid, boring character played by a mediocre actress.

Edited by AyChihuahua
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jaytee1812

jaytee1812

Agent Carter, The 100, Jessica Jones, Supergirl (I don't believe I've seen any hate for any of the female characters on that show. I could definitely be wrong)...

 

To be fair you're meant to hate the only straight white dude on Jessica Jones! There's a great tweet that I've seen retweeted so many times, a guy tweeted 'all the men on Jessica Jones are either evil or eye candy... Oh that's what that's like.' 

 

Winn on Supergirl probably is the only show I can think of where the nice guy everyone is suppose to like isn't popular. Although part of me is convinced that's meant and he'll turn into a bad guy. 

 

I'm a season behind on The 100 so I'm not sure who you mean. But I really can't stand Bellamy, but the people I hate are usually popular and vice versa. (I mean did I mention I love Laurel Lance). 

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tarotx

tarotx

I love love Sara but I've never hated Laurel the way some do. Laurel is forced into her Comic role which is what I hate. If they allowed her to grow naturally from what they created I think she could have been a great character. She might still be hated but she had a lot of potential imo. Though right now my mouth is still on the ground at KC saying Laurel was the "backbone" of Arrow right when Felicity has a spinal cord injury. I guess that's for a different thread though....

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jaytee1812

jaytee1812

I can't agree with you point on Laurel because here particularly (and on TWOP before that) people hate Laurel because she's simply a badly written character. That's all. 

 

If it is because of the writing then that just makes Arrow a bad show (which it is) and the hate would be shared around, but Laurel gets the hate, not the abusive sociopath in the Green Arrow costume. 

 

Finn was the most hated character on The 100 until the show acknowledged that and killed him off. These boards really hate Simpson on Jessica Jones (I don't, but whatever). For most people i know, Duncan was the worst character on Veronica Mars by far, and I think many viewers agree (I wasn't around when the show first aired). Riley on Buffy during his seasons. Etc.

 

It's a bit like the OscarsSoWhite thing. If you can name them all then it's a rarity. 

Malcolm Merlyn. Pretty much any post that starts with MM ends with "Can he please die already?"

 

He's a bad guy, he's meant to be hated. 

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wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

I'm a season behind on The 100 so I'm not sure who you mean. But I really can't stand Bellamy, but the people I hate are usually popular and vice versa. (I mean did I mention I love Laurel Lance). 

 

More power to you... But Imo on this show where Laurel wasn't particularly well written from the start and seems to have floundered in terms of characterization, and has been a non-entity since season 2, I feel like there're more reasons why people don't like her than simple misogyny. There's a reason why Laurel fans always demand for Laurel to be treated better. It's because the writers haven't treated her well and as such have written her poorly. Can you blame people for not liking a character who's been written poorly? That isn't to say that there are some misogynists out there who hate LL because she's a woman... 

 

And I think "He's a bad guy, he's meant to be hated" isn't really a valid argument. Kilgrave is a bad guy, but I loved him as a villain. Same goes for Slade, S1 Malcolm, Harrison Wells, etc. People on this board hate Malcolm because he's overstayed his welcome and we hate that the show has to bend every character to make him relevant. 

 

ETA: Also every single show always has a badly written character, or a character that just fails (even Parks and Rec had one)... That doesn't mean every show is a failure. It just means that show didn't do that 1 character justice. Which sucks for fans of that character. But definitely doesn't mean the whole show is a failure. It's like saying if I got 1 question wrong on a 10 question test, I failed the whole thing. Which isn't really the case. 

Edited by wonderwall
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FurryFury

FurryFury

If it is because of the writing then that just makes Arrow a bad show (which it is) and the hate would be shared around, but Laurel gets the hate, not the abusive sociopath in the Green Arrow costume.

 

I actually agree about Oliver (although Arrow isn't quite a bad show, mostly mediocre IMO), but his writing still isn't as bad as Laurel's. The writers clearly had (and still have) no idea what to do with her. Also, total miscast from the beginning.

 

As for LOT ratings, I think they were OK. Next week is the real test, because I don't think this was a particularly good pilot, B- at best (didn't expect it to be so cheesy TBH). Still going to watch because I like/love most of the characters, that's enough for me.

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tennisgurl

tennisgurl

LoT was pretty decent to me, in a pilot sort of way. It means I get Sara back on my screen being awesome, so for that I will always give it points. I even actually liked Ray alright. The Hawks, like most people have said, are by far the weakest link. Wooden acting, and a convoluted backstory that seems awkwardly shoehorned in. 

 

Mostly, I really loved the scenes with Heatwave, Captain Cold, and Sara. Snart and Sara are clearly meant to be besties. 

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Guest

Guest

Haven't watched Legends yet. I forgot it was on. LOL. But those ratings aren't all that great, IMO. Not for a show that had huge amounts of promo and a fanbase from Arrow and Flash. I expected it to be higher. Lucky it's on the CW, I guess?

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tarotx

tarotx

I'm not sure why people thought this was going to get huge ratings. This was a mid season show on the CW. It doesn't have a huge comic character. And the pilot had mediocre reviews. The Flash's rating was the goal but The Flash is really a biggish famous comic character. He's not Batman but yeah miles ahead of everybody combined on the other shows. 

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quarks

quarks

Nielsen has the Daily Twitter Ratings up. Legends of Tomorrow was completely squashed by The 100 and American Idol.  The 100 benefited, I think, from getting quite a lot of genre buzz over Christmas and early January when people were marathoning it on Netflix. 

 

Anyway, Legends of Tomorrow:

 

Unique audience: 749

Impressions: 2761

Unique authors: 13

Tweets: 42

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InsertWordHere

InsertWordHere

 

I found a scene with Oliver on Youtube. Ghosts even on LoT? Jesus. Does he have more than that one when Ray comes to tell him about joining Rip?

This is what I've got.

Oh sorry! I thought you were asking if there were more Ghosts (aren't there always?) not if there were more Oliver scenes. Yes, Oliver has a scene before that where he is on the comms with miniaturized Ray.

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EmilyBettFan

EmilyBettFan

Can someone clue me in because I don't really see the "Shantel VanSanten isn't half the actress Candice Patton is." I'm missing something because Iris is pretty forgettable. It's like she does the same thing every episode. Talks to joe and talks to Barry about how he is better than everyone lol. Same with Joe and his hate for OQ. Sometimes I can't stand this show and the hypocrisy.

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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

Can someone clue me in because I don't really see the "Shantel VanSanten isn't half the actress Candice Patton is." I'm missing something because Iris is pretty forgettable. It's like she does the same thing every episode. Talks to joe and talks to Barry about how he is better than everyone lol. Same with Joe and his hate for OQ. Sometimes I can't stand this show and the hypocrisy.

That's the character, not the actress. The actress can only do what she can with the lines and plots she's given. Everything that's wrong with Iris is, IMO, on the writers, not Candice Patton, who I think is fantastic. I mean for me Laurel is a fail bc of both the writing AND the acting, but Iris is only a fail, to the extent that she is, because of the writing.

 

Now I don't see any romantic or especially sexual chemistry bw Iris and Barry, but I never blame lack of chemistry on the actors. It's there or it's not. And I've never found Barry to have romantic or sexual chemistry with anyone.

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calliope1975

calliope1975

I thought the LOT pilot was merely okay. I think it would be a way better show without the Hawks. I think linking VS to them was a mistake. I'll keep watching and see how it goes. I am wondering how this will be dragged out for 16 episodes.

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JJ928

JJ928

(edited)

I was a underwhelmed by the Legends premier tbh, I think I went into with unrealistic expectations. The episode was messy & I zoned out for almost half of it. However, there were a few stand out moments. I really loved the banter between Stein & Jackson, I think the new Firestorm team is more compelling & has better chemistry than the original. Sara & Captain Cold played really well off each other, but what happened to Ray? I was never a fan of the character but he lost all the humor he had, he was so emo, almost like they were trying to make him Oliver jr. The Hawks bore me to tears & the acting does nothing for me, Ray seemed like a new character, Rip Hunter annoyed me, and Heat Wave was almost non existent. I will watch part 2 in hopes that it gets better, but mostly because i need this show to do well enough to get a few season, so we're not stuck with these characters on Arrow/Flash.

Edited by JJ928
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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

I really don't think that if LoT failed all the characters would just go back to the mother ships. Cold, sure, but he's just a recurring villain. Same with Heat. Firestorm's two halves probably only guesting at most. The Hawks would disappear. I don't think they'd bring BR back to Arrow as anything other than a very occasional guest. He's very expensive, he wasn't liked on Arrow, there's no place for him now on Arrow, so if LoT failed I think they'd finally get it through their heads that he's a fail character.

 

I do think Sara would visit both Flash and Arrow, but I'd love that. I don't want her as a regular, but Flash has no punchy-kicky people right now, and Arrow's BC is LL, so Sara is welcome to drop by any time.

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Starfish35

Starfish35

That's the character, not the actress. The actress can only do what she can with the lines and plots she's given. Everything that's wrong with Iris is, IMO, on the writers, not Candice Patton, who I think is fantastic. I mean for me Laurel is a fail bc of both the writing AND the acting, but Iris is only a fail, to the extent that she is, because of the writing.

I completely agree. The issues with Iris are completely the writers' fault, and it is to Candice's credit that she has done as much with the character as she has, because she's been given precious little to work with, sadly enough. Katie Cassidy, in the other hand, has not brought anything to the character that made me want to look beyond the bad writing, and in many cases her acting choices totally made the situation worse.

In regards to Shantel VanSanten, however, I enjoyed her time on the show. I don't think she's a better actress than Candice, but I never had any issues whatsoever with her acting. I really enjoyed Patty, and personally I'm sorry to see her go. I didn't realize how much of a Barry/Patty shipper I had become until this last episode. They were so cute together, and through the whole episode I was going "damn it, Barry, tell her! Just tell her!" Arggghh.

I'm not anti-WestAllen, but they have got to start giving me onscreen reasons to root for that couple, other than "epic comic ship". I. Don't. Care. Give me fun and cute flirting and romance, instead of......whatever the hell it is they're doing now. I can't root for that. :(

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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

I liked the LoT premier.  I'm a sucker for Arthur Darville but to my surprise, I enjoyed Heat Wave the most.  "Why does this channel play only reruns?"  "I like to kill people."

 

Agree that the Hawks are the weakest, along with Jefferson although he hasn't been given much to do yet.  I thought they did a great job of casting the professor because he really did look like Ciara could have been his mother.

 

In the clip of Ray and Oliver, Rays explains his decision with "I died once, at least the world thought I did and what happened?  Nothing happened. All the money, all the buildings, all the inventions... the world didn't care."

 

Me:  They changed the name of Starling City to Star City and put your picture up all over!!! I want it back! especially if it means nothing to you.

 

And yeah, I have no clue what accent they're aiming for with Ana Jarvis.

Ana Jarvis was described as Hungarian last season but the actress, Lotte Verbeek, is Dutch and I guess they think that any foreign accent counts.

 

Re hated characters:

I find that it often happens when the show-runners like a character more than the audience does and emphasizes them to the detriment of the show overall.  On this show, it's Laurel and Malcolm Merlyn.  Agents of Shield did it in season 1 with Skye but fortunately pulled back this year.

 

I know The Flash is about Barry but it they don't stop the hagiography (Flash Day?  Really?) I'm going to start disliking him too.

 

I like Candice Patton but I cringe every time the show pushes the sibling love Barry has for Iris.  I'm going to miss Patty a lot because I liked Barry more when he was around her.  Just as I liked Oliver more when he was around Felicity than when he was with Laurel.

Edited by statsgirl
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Lethal Huntress

Lethal Huntress

For me Candice lights up the screen no matter how little she gets to do, she adds to the material. Shantel doesn't she delivers what she's given but nothing more.

The sidelining of Iris has been the worst thing about season 2 of The Flash.

Same. Candice is a great actress. Especially when they give her emotional material to work with. The treatment of Iris is the reason I dropped The Flash. They don't seem to be in a hurry to correct this mistake. The Earth 2 stuff is also boring. The show, to me, is going downhill fast. Nothing like S1.

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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

In regards to Shantel VanSanten, however, I enjoyed her time on the show. I don't think she's a better actress than Candice, but I never had any issues whatsoever with her acting. I really enjoyed Patty, and personally I'm sorry to see her go. I didn't realize how much of a Barry/Patty shipper I had become until this last episode. They were so cute together, and through the whole episode I was going "damn it, Barry, tell her! Just tell her!" Arggghh.

I have no particular opinion about Patty, bc right around the time she got going I got bored and stopped watching. Thanks, Jay Garrick and Caitlin! Together you are even more boring and charisma-less than you are apart!

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jaytee1812

jaytee1812

Oh Jay Garrick. Wow. What an utter and complete waste of a character.

Isn't he? I remember someone posting here that maybe they had Henry leave when he was released from prison because with Joe and Jsy Barry would have too many mentors. But I don't even remember Barry and Jay having and scenes together. He's added nothing but giving Caitlin an unnecessary love interest.

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Starfish35

Starfish35

(edited)

Well that's what I thought,that he was brought on to be a sort of mentor to Barry. But we've had very very little of that. (They did have some scenes together early on, when they saved Patty and he taught Barry to use the Lightning. But since then, not so much.). He's just existed to be the grumpy rain cloud in the room, raining on everyone's parade. Oh yeah, and to be Caitlin's love interest. I mean, I like Caitlin, but Caitlin did not need a love interest! Her husband just died!

And the actor isn't all that great either, at least IMO. I'm told Teddy Sears has been good in other things, but I'm not seeing it here so much. Of course, I could be biased, due to my general "make it stop, make it stop!" reaction to the Caitlin/Jay shipping.

Edited by Starfish35
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