Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[nksarmi]

Didn't we hear that LoT is getting 16 episodes?

 

 

 

 

At the time it did seem like it would be too good to be true to actually get the Real Sara back but even as all those speculations were made, most everyone agreed what we wanted most was OUR Sara back.  (And Rip going back in time only to put her back in the time stream to die later was a worst case option for most.  I hate even now hearing it put out in the world, lol.)    As horribly as they did Sara's return, I am so glad that they had no intentions on making her a different character than the one we know.

 

Sara, like Laurel, really did originally get stuck with a terrible backstory.  I think some still hold her bad choices against her but she was even younger and more naïve than Oliver so I have no problem forgiving and forgetting. 

I think it easy to forgive Sara for what she did to Laurel, because she literally went through hell for that mistake.  I don't like that when she comes back, she sleeps with Oliver AND doesn't hide it from Laurel - I actually understand why she fell for him since they shared experiences no one else would really understand, but she should have hid it from Laurel for awhile (this is one time when keeping secrets would have been a kindness on this show).

 

Conversely, I hold all of this more against Oliver because he had been home for over a year, knew he had told Laurel he loved her just months before he got together with Sara, knew what Laurel was going through because of Tommy, and damn well knew that Laurel was a bit "fragile."  He should have known that inviting Sara on the cruise meant that he didn't just betray Laurel - Sara did as well.  And after watching Laurel process her feelings for him over the course of his first year home, he should have known that Laurel would need to do the same with Sara.  While I can see why he slept with Sara - again, Mr. freaking secret keeper should have damn well known that of all the secrets he kept to "protect" those he cared about - not letting Laurel know that he and Sara were sleeping together would have fallen into that vein.

 

I don't know why I put this more on Oliver's shoulders than Sara's - but I definitely do.  Maybe if she had returned home first, I would feel differently.

[wonderwall]

I don't know why I put this more on Oliver's shoulders than Sara's - but I definitely do.  Maybe if she had returned home first, I would feel differently.

 

Maybe it's because after he came back he slept with Laurel completely convinced he was in love with her... And then when Sara came back, he slept with her completely disregarding Laurel's feelings (while he knew she was going through a tough time) even though he claimed to care about her. Seriously though, his actions in the past and now just tell me he doesn't give a damn about her. He might call her his equal because she demanded it, but I still don't think he believes she is. 

 

Oliver sleeping with Sara and pretty much shoving it in Laurel's face knowing that she's going through her own issues was probably the only time I was ever on Laurel's side. Which says a lot. 

[Tangerine]

She's only White Canary to contrast to her sister's Black. She's not the comic book character. Give it a break.

 

I can only speak from my perspective and I get that on the one hand it's technically a completely "new" character. Don't get me wrong, I'm beyond thrilled CL is back. But given that there's such a dearth of diversity and representation, especially when it comes to WoC on these shows, it still grinds my gears a little bit that the White Canary we're seeing isn't Asian. And again, I love CL and I would watch her in anything. White Canary isn't exactly a well-known character or popular, so it's not like we were bound to see her on-screen any time soon but it still kind of sucks that they've given her name to someone else rather than making an effort to put more Asian women on screen. This isn't a problem exclusive to the Flarrow-verse obviously, but they certainly haven't helped. It's not as blatant and obvious as white-washing Sin, but still problematic.

 

I don't know if that made any sense I hope it made sense...like I mean to say I'm not that upset about it, but I see how it's still problematic.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Tangerine

[BkWurm1]

I can only speak from my perspective and I get that on the one hand it's technically a completely "new" character. Don't get me wrong, I'm beyond thrilled CL is back. But given that there's such a dearth of diversity and representation, especially when it comes to WoC on these shows, it still grinds my gears a little bit that the White Canary we're seeing isn't Asian. And again, I love CL and I would watch her in anything. White Canary isn't exactly a well-known character or popular, so it's not like we were bound to see her on-screen any time soon but it still kind of sucks that they've given her name to someone else rather than making an effort to put more Asian women on screen. This isn't a problem exclusive to the Flarrow-verse obviously, but they certainly haven't helped.

If Sara ending up with the name White Canary had been anything but a late to the game, label slapped on her to try and make Sara not reclaiming her original name while also honoring the fact that she was a Canary make sense, then perhaps I'd have some misgivings with Sara being not Asian but in this particular case everything about Sara came first and the final label she walks away with has zero to do with the character in the comics. Any similarities are a coincidence.  (and can be  explained by Sara being the proto-Black Canary)

 

It's like worrying about why John Diggle isn't an alien from another planet like the original Spartan in DC's comics.  Only the name is shared, otherwise it is a complete different character and the creation of the character (who Sara is and who Diggle is) predates the naming of the character, so just because there is also another character out there with the same name, people shouldn't correlate the two.  The other White Canary has nothing to do with Sara and has IMO nothing to do with the very real issue of diversity in ...well, everything.  

Edited November 28, 2015 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

We had Tatsu, who is an awesome Asian woman as was Shado, and Nyssa/KL is of mixed race.  We've also got Kendra but there is a lack of black female superheros on the shows.

 

If the White Canary were Asian. she wouldn't be Sara, and she wouldn't be on the show since the point was to get Caity Lotz in the spin-off..,

February - LoT announced, orignal casting notices include Ray/ATOM, Stein/Firestorm (minus Ronnie), Cold and Heatwave and Caity Lotz as an unidentified character.

Again, my personal opinion, is the EPs didn't get the positive result they hoped for with Laurel as BC. So, they substituted Sara/Canary for Laurel/Black Canary.

I'm still hung up on this point -- if Laurel/BC had been better received, she would have been on LoT and not Sara.

 

It's our fault.

 

 

Oliver sleeping with Sara and pretty much shoving it in Laurel's face knowing that she's going through her own issues was probably the only time I was ever on Laurel's side. Which says a lot. 

Same here.  Although he didn't want to go but Sara asked and Felicity pushed him away and so he went.

 

I don't know why Oliver and Sara get all the blame for the past and Laurel gets none of it.  Oliver and Laurel were 22, Sara was 20.  Emotionally they were mere babes.  It was wrong of Oliver to cheat on Laurel with her sister but it was also in response to Laurel's pushing him for a commitment he didn't want to make and Laurel knew he was a cheater but she still wanted to marry him.  If the Queen's Gambit hadn't gone down, it would have been a messy situation and hopefully Laurel would have shown Oliver the door for good but it wouldn't have had the weight it's been given now.

[looptab]

I'm still hung up on this point -- if Laurel/BC had been better received, she would have been on LoT and not Sara.

 

It's our fault.

 

 

 

We shouldn't beat ourselves up. If it has to be someone's fault, it's theirs. Totally, completely, their fault. :)

[Sakura12]

I've forgiven Sara for the cheating because she paid for her mistake and is still paying for that mistake. While she shouldn't have hooked up Oliver again when she got back I'm also one that doesn't think Oliver and Sara should live their lives worried about what Laurel would think. It is a shitty thing to do of course, but Laurel doesn't own Oliver and if he wanted to date Sara he could. Oliver was a horrible boyfriend to her anyway, she's better off without him. 

 

However all that showed me is it's Sara, Oliver cared more about. There was no great love between Oliver and Laurel because both times he choose Sara as the one to be with. SA even plays it as Oliver caring more about Sara, when they were getting back her soul he moved her hair out of her face and caressed her cheek. He barely even touches Laurel unless she goes to him. It's obviously not the same as with Felicity, but Sara has a place in his life because of what they've been through while Laurel does not. She's there, well because comics. SA never plays it as Laurel's needed or important to him. 

[Chaser]

October/December - Sara is killed people online complain, ratings drop from 1.1 for 301 to 0.8 for 302 (catches CW attention but nothing much beyond that). Ray is NOT the hit with the fans that Berlanti was hoping for. Plus there are major issues with the ATOM suit which delay Ray's story. Laurel as Black Canary is leaked and they get mixed reactions but something looked promising).

January - Heroes and Villains TCA Winter Panel plus Fight Club promo. By this point Berlanti had already switched gears and was no longer pitching a Solo ATOM spinoff. I'm 99% convinced the entire point of this panel was one last push by Berlanti for the Spinoff, this time it's for a team show. Invited to the panel are ATOM, Firestorm, Cold, Heatwave and Black Canary.

My personal opinion is that the original intent was to put Black Canary/Laurel in the new LoT spin-off. However Black Canary didn't go over like gang busters at TCAs, in fact the EP's ended spending more time defending the choice of only masks and only Black Canary in the panel (to the press). Hell, Berlanti even fell on his sword over the decision but, I never felt the writers only believed Masks were important or that BC was the only female hero worth displaying. I've always maintained TCA Winter Panel was about proving LoT could work as a spin-off.

Again, my personal opinion, is the EPs didn't get the positive result they hoped for with Laurel as BC. So, they substituted Sara/Canary for Laurel/Black Canary.

As for why they picked Sara? Well, they knew Sara was popular, they knew the ratings took a hit after she was killed, CL has a working relationship with BR (made a movie together Summer 2014) and there was a campaign to get Sara back.

Would the campaign alone have saved Sara? Nope. Would Sara be alive now if the press and fans at TCA embraced Laurel/Black Canary? I don't think so (personally)

What gave you the impression that the original intention was to move Laurel to LOT? I'm just curious.

[nksarmi]

We had Tatsu, who is an awesome Asian woman as was Shado, and Nyssa/KL is of mixed race.  We've also got Kendra but there is a lack of black female superheros on the shows.

 

If the White Canary were Asian. she wouldn't be Sara, and she wouldn't be on the show since the point was to get Caity Lotz in the spin-off..,

I'm still hung up on this point -- if Laurel/BC had been better received, she would have been on LoT and not Sara.

 

It's our fault.

 

 

Same here.  Although he didn't want to go but Sara asked and Felicity pushed him away and so he went.

 

I don't know why Oliver and Sara get all the blame for the past and Laurel gets none of it.  Oliver and Laurel were 22, Sara was 20.  Emotionally they were mere babes.  It was wrong of Oliver to cheat on Laurel with her sister but it was also in response to Laurel's pushing him for a commitment he didn't want to make and Laurel knew he was a cheater but she still wanted to marry him.  If the Queen's Gambit hadn't gone down, it would have been a messy situation and hopefully Laurel would have shown Oliver the door for good but it wouldn't have had the weight it's been given now.

 

If we look at this all from Laurel's perspective, her sister (who she might not have been close to, but that really could have been a teenage thing) AND the man she loved betrayed her.  It's one thing for her to let go of what Oliver did to her - the fact that he did it with her sister must have been all the more painful.  I mean, pre-island Oliver was a scum bucket.  Surely, Laurel had a friend he could have hit on instead of messing with sisters!  And let's not forget why poor Sara went - she was convinced she was in love with the guy!  So being the biggest douchbag to ever douch, rather than just breaking up with Laurel, he cheats on her with her sister who he knows has a huge crush on her.  I mean, it what world does this end well for either sister if the Gambit doesn't blow up?  He didn't give two fucks about either woman.

 

So, Laurel learns that the man she loved (or at least thought she did) is dead and her sister is dead and what choice does she have but to bury those feelings of betrayal and anger and just deal with the grief - her grief, her mother's grief, and her father's.  So while Laurel is not dealing with her resentment, anger, etc.... her mother is carrying her own guilt (because worse mom ever encouraged one daughter to go sleep with the other daughter's boyfriend - who the hell does that?) and her father is drinking away his pain.  Then Laurel's mom leaves and her dad falls completely in the bottle.  Why?  Because Sara died.

 

So of course when Sara shows up alive, Laurel now has to deal with a) the betrayal she buried because of the grief, b) the fact that Sara's death broke up her parent's marriage and drove her mom away, and c) the fact that Sara's death drove her dad to drink and Laurel was the one who had to pick him out of the bars and get him home safe.

 

Ok so yes, if Oliver and Sara come back alive - what they did had some impact on Laurel but her parent's marriage may or may not have broken up, she and Sara might have eventually made amends (especially once Oliver broke her heart too), and most importantly - daddy Lance might not have turned into a drunk.  Ergo, while Laurel didn't go through the hell that Oliver and Sara did - her life was also permanently altered by their choices.

 

So given how much damage that little boat trip did to the Lance family - perhaps Oliver's presence at said family dinner in season two was a VERY bad idea and no matter how nervous Sara was, Oliver should have KNOWN it was a bad idea and told her so.  And at the very least - the man who kept so many secrets might have told Sara, I'll go with you, but we can't let your sister know about us - she's going through a rough time and she might not take this well right now. 

 

To me, all of Laurel's reactions to Oliver and Sara make perfect sense.  I forgive Sara for her part in Laurel's pain because she didn't know the things Oliver did and he should have handled the situation better.  I think the problem with Laurel in all of this isn't that her reactions don't make sense - its there after the writers took them there - it now makes NO damn sense for Laurel to want to have anything to do with Oliver.  Even if she wanted to be Black Canary to honor her sister, her story really should be separate from Oliver like 90% of the time and she should want as little to do with him as possible.  I know the problem is - how do you work her into the story if that's the case, but all the more reason why the writers just screwed her character up so damn bad its not funny. 

 

And come to think of it - the way the wrote the story - Laurel's journey to BC would have made better sense IF she was headed to LoT.  Because I can see her becoming BC and then leaving town.  What I still can't understand is why she's part of Oliver's team.

Edited November 28, 2015 by nksarmi

[Sakura12]

I think everyone can agree the bringing Oliver to the family dinner was horrible idea. However it was just there for plot purposes for Laurel's storyline and nothing else. That dinner was never for 1 minute about the Lance family. It was about Laurel and only Laurel. That was their cure Laurel from her intermittent drinking problem dinner. That's how I saw it from the beginning so I never could blame Oliver or Sara for that decision. It wasn't for them. At that point they could've had a drunk Laurel see Oliver and Sara holding hands on the street and accomplished the same thing. 

 

If it was about the Lance family, I hope they would've asked a ton questions to both Sara and Oliver about their missing years and why they lied. Since it wasn't, Sara's family knew nothing about what she went through or that her entire body was covered in scars just like Oliver. Apparently they also never asked any questions ever. That's why Laurel was all shocked to hear from a chatty doctor that thought Sara had been in a war zone. I guess Laurel thought she was a Caribbean cruise for 6 years. 

[hogwash]

I just love crapping on the sister-swapping. How do you create two Black Canaries (insert beating dead horse gif) and saddle them both with this garbage backstory with their Green Arrow? So the audience's choices are either the Black Canary who boned her the sister's boyfriend in a publicly horrible way or the Black Canary who got cheated on in a publicly horrible way.

 

Now they're also paying for the boneheaded decision to go for Laurel/Oliver demolition over Sara/Laurel bonding and development in S02. There was so much to freaking work with! Can you really forgive that kind of betrayal? Is it really possible to make up for it? Is the relationship worth salvaging? How do you move past it? Instead, Laurel apologizes(??) and gives Sara relationship advice. Oh well. Hopefully their LOT scene is brief and not too heavy with the "light" metaphors.

[statsgirl]

I'll take the relationship part to the Heartaches thread.

 

Has anyone heard of Arrow - Vengeance?  It's a paperback by Oscar Balderrama and Lauren Certo and published in late January. Is it worth getting?

[Sakura12]

I'm sure Laurel's whole purpose on LoT is to give us the "light" metaphors while her stunt double trains with Sara. Which I hope doesn't include one year of training and heroing Laurel giving advice to Sara on being a hero. 

 

I also hope Sara tells Laurel to stop leaving her body so wide open for attacks. 

 

[Primal Slayer]

Katies stunt double is also Laurel in the show, just as everyones stunt doubles are. 

[AyChihuahua]

I feel a little guilty for ripping on KC for being so uncoordinated and unbelievable as a non-superpowered superhero, bc I am incredibly uncoordinated.  But, I'm not an actress playing a non-superpowered superhero.  She was just totally miscast.  I don't know whether she can do anything to fix it, take martial arts classes or something, but currently KC is totally unbelievable in her role.  

[Menrva]

Just saw this article this morning. 

 

http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Legends-Tomorrow-So-Expensive-It-Probably-Won-t-Get-Second-Season-102157.html

[quarks]

I don't think there's any question that Legends of Tomorrow is a very expensive show for the CW (four flying characters! Two more characters with special effects! Brandon Routh! Victor Garber! Time travelling = costumes/props expenses!)  But speculating that it's going to get cancelled before a single episode has aired - or even this Arrow/Flash crossover featuring a couple of the LoT characters has aired - seems to be a) jumping the gun just a tad, b) a desperate ploy to get viewers to tune in. I mean we've had the carefully planted "Look, if for any reasons you don't like some of the characters, don't worry! They'll get dumped!" rumor, and now this.

 

I will go on record as saying that, right now, I have no idea if LoT will get a second season, because although yes, it's an expensive show, a) I have no idea how many people will watch it, b) I have no idea what the post-view numbers/revenue will be, and c) we're talking about the same network that renewed a number of shows with seriously questionable ratings last year - hi, Reign! Why, exactly, are you still with us? - and hasn't cancelled The Originals. Yet.  

Edited November 29, 2015 by quarks

[Morrigan2575]

I agree with Quarks. LoT is definitely expensive but it's too early to tell if the show will get renewed or not. It hasn't even aired yet.

[tarotx]

LOT doesn't need to be as expensive next season. LOL if must they could drop most of the expensive characters and get stuck in a setting. They could also follow these legends back on Earth how they cope after a year of incredible highs and lows. If they make the characters rich&interesting "people" you want more from them.

Also we also don't know how the rest of the season will look for LOT. Pilots/first episides often get a lot more money than the rest of the episodes because it's what has to attract an audiences eye.

[Sakura12]

I wonder to make it cheaper if the foreground will be Sara fighting while the others are in the background or only sounds are heard from them. Having a flame shoot by Sara while she's fighting is cheaper than having Firestorm on fire.  The time stream stuff can be just re used or not shown all the time. 

 

On Jessica Jones they got away with her

flying by only showing her taking off and having others react to her flying. The only time we saw part of it was in the finale which was more of what she calls guided falling.

 

If that is the case then I can see them dropping some of their CGI heavy characters and getting some heroes that don't require that much of it. Constantine and Zatanna's powers are probably easier on the CGI budget or the martial arts trained characters like Lady Blackhawk, Huntress or Cassandra Cain or even Nyssa if KL is available. 

[Menrva]

I don't think there's any question that Legends of Tomorrow is a very expensive show for the CW (four flying characters! Two more characters with special effects! Brandon Routh! Victor Garber! Time travelling = costumes/props expenses!)  But speculating that it's going to get cancelled before a single episode has aired - or even this Arrow/Flash crossover featuring a couple of the LoT characters has aired - seems to be a) jumping the gun just a tad, b) a desperate ploy to get viewers to tune in. I mean we've had the carefully planted "Look, if for any reasons you don't like some of the characters, don't worry! They'll get dumped!" rumor, and now this.

 

I will go on record as saying that, right now, I have no idea if LoT will get a second season, because although yes, it's an expensive show, a) I have no idea how many people will watch it, b) I have no idea what the post-view numbers/revenue will be, and c) we're talking about the same network that renewed a number of shows with seriously questionable ratings last year - hi, Reign! Why, exactly, are you still with us? - and hasn't cancelled The Originals. Yet.  

Oh, I'm not worried about cancellation personally. I'm not super excited about LOT - I'll give it a shot. I just thought it was weird to see that article about a show that hasn't even premiered yet, especially one that seems to have garnered positive buzz. Plenty of pilots never see the light of day, and certainly shows have even been cancelled after one episode, but this just seemed strange to me.

[kismet]

I think they've released very little about LoT so the websites are desperately trying to find something to talk about.

Personally it's way to early to call anything, but budgets always change... I can imagine that they would want to trim costs in a s2, however there are so many different ways to do it.

Edited November 29, 2015 by kismet

[Morrigan2575]

I wonder if these rumors are deliberate leaks to drive interest, attention and help bulster ratings?

[tarotx]

We were talking about it here and then all of a sudden it was being talked about elsewhere. It was weird. I do think someone is directing the conversation.

I wonder if these rumors are deliberate leaks to drive interest, attention and help bulster ratings?

[apinknightmare]

Seems like unsubstantiated clickbait to me. 

[AyChihuahua]

I'm sure it'll be fine, although if it tanks it will prove my belief that Ray Palmer ruins everything.  There is a potential difference bw LoT and Reign, etc., which is that I bet LoT isn't just expensive, it's REALLY expensive, for the CW.  Several bigger name actors as well as all the fx.  I think it'll have to have good ratings out of the box. 

[Morrigan2575]

What caught my attention is that the last 2 LoT rumors all originated at Bleeding Cool News. Now of course the site could be totally full of crap. But I did wonder if they're "source" is just a PR attempt to get people talking about the show. We're leading up to the big LoT backdoor pilot and then after that the official media push probably won't start until January.

It could be nothing, could just be people talking put of their ass, could be clickbait. It just got me curious

Edited November 29, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Trini]

I'm going with 'full of crap'.

[apinknightmare]

I'm not in PR, but it seems a little counterintuitive to attempt to garner positive buzz by telling people this thing they want you to get super hyped for is probably not gonna come back. But maybe that's just me.

[kismet]

We were talking about it here and then all of a sudden it was being talked about elsewhere. It was weird. I do think someone is directing the conversation.

Perhaps do we wield some type of power here :)

 

I'm not in PR, but it seems a little counterintuitive to attempt to garner positive buzz by telling people this thing they want you to get super hyped for is probably not gonna come back. But maybe that's just me.

From a PR/sales perspective, It sometimes garners more attention if something is advertised as limited engagement, short run, special series. Make people feel that if they miss it they will regret it. Make must watch TV. Limited supply sometimes drives up demand.

 

Likewise, it also helps to spread these rumors so if it does tank for whatever reason, they have more to blame stuff on. They are laying the groundwork if they need to for a failure. See even before the show started it was rumored to be having certain concerns or issues.

Edited November 29, 2015 by kismet

[Morrigan2575]

I'm not in PR either but deliberately leaking episodes to gain attention/ratings seems counter intuitive to me and yet it's apparently a thing. So, I don't know.

I just know that these rumors have gotten spread to a lot of different sites and I see a lot of people talking about LoT. I've seen comicbook sites pick it up, especially the last one and already geek out over who they want on the team in S2.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

I'm not in PR either but deliberately leaking episodes to gain attention/ratings seems counter intuitive to me and yet it's apparently a thing. So, I don't know.

I just know that these rumors have gotten spread to a lot of different sites and I see a lot of people talking about LoT. I've seen comicbook sites pick it up, especially the last one and already geek out over who they want on the team in S2.

Most leaked episodes tend to get good buzz going. I can't think of any way a rumor about the show getting canceled generates positive buzz. Even if they were worried about viewership and wanted to put something out there, it seems like the way to do that would be to spread the word that a second season is in the bag if ratings are good. That would get people excited instead of floating that a show that hasn't even premiered yet is dead in the water due to budget issues. 

From a PR/sales perspective, It sometimes garners more attention if something is advertised as limited engagement, short run, special series. Make people feel that if they miss it they will regret it. Make must watch TV. Limited supply sometimes drives up demand.

 

The EP has talked about it being an anthology though, which already puts out there that it's a limited engagement, with zero negative connotations attached.

[tv echo]

Here's a suggestion... Laurel dies at the end of this season.  Sara returns to Arrow and changes her name to Black Canary to honor her deceased sister.  She subsequently mentors or adopts a young Asian female orphan (future White Canary).

[Primal Slayer]

If they hadn't whitewashed Sin, they could've done that exact story for Laurel.

[tv echo]

Apparently

Matt Nable was at the Supanova Pop Culture Expo in Brisbane (Australia) this weekend and may have spoiled that he will be appearing in LoT.

http://www.spoilertv.com/2015/11/legends-of-tomorrow-matt-nable-to-appear.html

[SmallScreenDiva]

Here's a suggestion... Laurel dies at the end of this season.  Sara returns to Arrow and changes her name to Black Canary to honor her deceased sister.  She subsequently mentors or adopts a young Asian female orphan (future White Canary).

 

Warning: Unpopular opinion:

 

No, please no. Not the Laurel dying part. I want that but I'm on record here many times saying I don't think that's ever gonna happen because DC TV seems intent on collecting masks. But even if they do kill off Laurel, I don't want Sara coming back. That's why I'm hoping, kinda, that LOT is successful. So her fans can enjoy her on her own show. There will be crossovers; I'm resigned to that. But I don't want her on Arrow on a regular or even recurring basis again.  

 

Arrow, as a show, does not need a Canary or a Black Canary.This show has repeatedly displayed an inability to integrate a masked character that's supposed to be the Green Arrow's equal in skills without screwing with the balance and chemistry of the show. It happened with Season 2B; and it's happening with Laurel now when they try to include her in scenes that make more sense with other characters (e.g. Diggle's breakdown in "Brotherhood"; I feel that would have been more powerful if that was with Felicity or Oliver). 

[Primal Slayer]

I don't even get people wanting Sara back on Arrow full-time, it would probably be worse for her in the long run. Her shipping off to LoT is the best thing that could happen to her.

[tv echo]

Warning - these articles contain some Flash spoilers if you're interested (I don't visit the Flash forum anymore)...

 

The Flash Season 2 Spoilers:

Candice Patton teases dramatic Christmas episode

29TH NOVEMBER 2015 BY Martin Lamont
http://primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/the-flash-season-2-spoilers-candice-patton-talks-the-christmas-episode/

 

The Flash Stars Preview

Wally West's Arrival, Mistletoe Action, New Power

By Vlada Gelman / November 28 2015, 10:45 AM PST
http://tvline.com/2015/11/28/the-flash-iris-meets-wally-west-season-2-spoilers/

Edited November 29, 2015 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

If they hadn't whitewashed Sin, they could've done that exact story for Laurel.

Except they had already established Sin as Sara's protege. If there was one good thing about Bex Taylor-Klaus not being available to film Arrow, it was that at least Sin wasn't given to Laurel just like everything else that was Sara's first.

[tarotx]

I don't think most Sara fans want her full time on Arrow. (Though Part time for sure imo). I think some people feel that if we are to have a full time Black Canary, they rather it be Sara. Sara and Oliver work as equals and as friends. But I still think having so many other masks every fight would still be too much even with someone as skilled as Sara. In a team you need people who do different jobs or to be family. Oliver as the "mask" works the best. Now original Arrow plus Thea works because this is Oliver's family. It's hard to have old lovers as full time family members. Black-Canary can't work full time because why integrate past lovers? Why do you want to put that much tension. You let past lovers visit but you don't move them into your home. The Arrow cave is pretty much another home imo. 

[Primal Slayer]

That's why I said if they hadn't whitewashed the charecter. Different story that wouldn't have been done with Arrows Sin.

[tv echo]

This poster also works for me (posted by CW Arrow on twitter, facebook & tumblr)..

 

Edited November 29, 2015 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

I'm surprised. I thought they would have released a Hawks poster first and saves the Arrow/Flash team up poster for Tuesday night.

[tv echo]

I wasn't sure where to post this, but anyway...

 

9 Gift Ideas for TV Fans Who Love Comic Book Shows
Robert Chan  November 17, 2015
https://www.yahoo.com/tv/9-gift-ideas-for-tv-fans-1301662327308342.html

Interestingly, because television shows like Arrow, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., The Flash, and Gotham come with a built-in following from the comics world, the amount of official studio merch is being dwarfed by the output of crafting fans. Here is a selection of the best show-related gifts — official and otherwise — for your superhero-crazy loved ones...

Edited November 29, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

So I just posted the news in the Golden Arrow thread that GB is Adweek's TV Producer of the Year.  In that article, GB distinguishes among his four superhero shows as follows:

"I can very easily justify how each one of those shows is very different and distinct from the other," he says. "Flash has a family drama element, Arrow has a epic saga/crime element, Supergirl has a young-woman-in-the-city and a workplace element, and Legends is like the Dirty Dozen teaming up.

His distinctions between Arrow and Flash make no sense to me.  Arrow also has a family drama element.  Flash also has an epic saga/crime element.  Their primary difference is in tone and characters.

Edited November 30, 2015 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

I love The Dirty Dozen, it's one of my favorite movies. That's setting some pretty high expectations for LoT.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Morrigan2575]

http://www.spoilertv.com/2015/11/supergirl-picked-up-for-full-season_30.html?m=1

This gets it to 20 episodes, not sure if they didn't pick up the back 9 because of scheduling or because they're not confident in the ratings.

Guess we'll see where it sits in May. I'm guessing it'll get a 2nd season on a smaller budget. Unless Supergirl is bringing in a lot of down stream revenue.

[bijoux]

I love The Ditty Dozen, it's one of my favorite movies. That's setting some pretty high expectations for LoT.

I know it's a typo but I find The Ditty Dozen both funny and intriguing.

[nksarmi]

I hope Supergirl goes for 3 or 4 seasons.  If it does, I would call that a success and it should open the door to other DC female-led shows. I personally want them to revisit the Birds of Prey concept so bad that I almost don't care if I have to take Laurel (she might be more tolerable away from Oliver) as a part of it.  But I think I'd need Earth 2 Huntress or a Huntress by a different name.  As much as I enjoy this Huntress in small doses - I don't think I could invest in a show with both her and KC's Laurel.

[way2interested]

As much as I am beginning to like Supergirl a bit more (Cat Grant being my favorite character), I honestly wish CBS or Berlanti went in a different direction for a new female-led superhero series. I understand the effort that this show, and Agent Carter, has to being good, but something feels off about them to me. Don't get me wrong, I love Peggy and Kara as characters because of the way the actors portray them and the way the story portrays them as multi-faceted, but the execution of these shows falls a bit flat to me. The best part of Agent Carter was when Peggy and Jarvis (and the Howling Commandos) went on missions together while Peggy dealt with the mourning of Steve. The best parts, in my opinion, of Supergirl are when Kara learns to gain the emotional confidence to be Supergirl or when we see the different sides of Cat Grant in her relationship with Kara. These parts are genuine and character-driven, but have one thing in common: they are not what the EPs and the show have been pushing at us. Both of the shows stress the idea of a girl working in this male-dominated field, but I believe that plots centered around this idea are actually where the shows fall flat.

 

Just take a look at Jessica Jones and AoS (although AoS is more of an ensemble than a female-led show). Both focus on character rather than pushing an idea, giving receptive characters and story lines and overall making a better-executed show. Some people argue that audiences might not be receptive to female-led superhero shows (looking at the low-rated AoS, AC, and now declining Supergirl), but I believe that audiences are just not receptive to poor execution that these shows sometimes have. The rather difficult thing about this is that instead of focusing on the actual problems behind not capturing the audience (the writing, the plotting, the execution), networks, and sometimes audiences, are quick to blame the female aspect of it instead. Female-led shows do have an unfair higher standard to live up to in terms of execution, but I don't like it when shows proclaim that they have definitely changed the superhero genre when in actuality their own quality has held them back (AC, Supergirl). If you want to have a female-led superhero show, have quality female characters and story lines that support them as characters (JJ and AoS) without having to push this female ideal show behind it.

 

That being said, I would love if Supergirl did succeed if only for networks to have confidence in establishing these types of female-led superhero shows. BoP would be awesome to see in general just to see a show portray several women with conflicting views, attitudes, and crime-fighting styles choosing to work together. Side note: Honestly, my biggest dream last year was that instead of the 3rd spinoff be about Ray, or in this case LoT, that the CW would have a third series on Zatanna to fill out a superhero triumvirate of reality, science fiction, and mysticism for the Arrowverse with a female POC as the lead. I had a whole season planned out in my head in terms of characters, arcs, crossovers, and finales, but then they announced LoT and my dreams were dashed forever. *sigh*