Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[tennisgurl]

I love how Beebo has become this running gag throughout the Arrowverse. Please tell me someone is planning on selling those Beebo socks. Or some interprising fan is working on it? Please?!? 

[catrox14]

BOO! I am really annoyed that Sara broke up with Ava. Don't do that show.  Sara has been down this path so many times. Just let her be happy. Let Ava be happy. I am irritated.

[Mellowyellow]

 Need to send in Oliver to give Sara his "Vigilante Advice" of everyone needing to find a Felicity equivalent for themselves so they can be happy. 

[Featherhat]

3 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

 Need to send in Oliver to give Sara his "Vigilante Advice" of everyone needing to find a Felicity equivalent for themselves so they can be happy. 

Yes, but Sara's nearest Felicity equivalent is ........Ray ;)......That does not compute for them (and really truly please don't close that circle writers.)

Edited March 20, 2018 by Featherhat

[Mellowyellow]

5 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Yes, but Sara's nearest Felicity equivalent is ........Ray ;)......That does not compute for them (and really truly please don't close that circle writers.)

keke @JJ928 would be happy =P

[BkWurm1]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

BOO! I am really annoyed that Sara broke up with Ava. Don't do that show.  Sara has been down this path so many times. Just let her be happy. Let Ava be happy. I am irritated.

It was funny.  I have not been an Ava fan with or without Sara - never hated her but just felt nothing from her, but I did feel something from her and for her this episode.  Not convinced she's Sara's soulmate, lol, but she believes in Sara in a way I love and more than it being about Ave, I was rooting for Sara not to push her away.  I know CL isn't as strong an actress as some but something she does when she conveys her pain and brokenness just guts me.    

4 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

keke @JJ928 would be happy =P

Honestly, if they let Ray be move beyond his normal kind of silly man like they do when he gets the episode focus, I could so easily see a great romance develope between Ray and Sara.  There's been no indication they will go there, but I'd be so up for it if they did.   So you could put my name on the list.  :D  Someone could probably write them an amazing fan fic romance.  

[JamieLynn832002]

Jessie's not dead, right? I was somewhat confused about that since everyone else Sara/Mallus impersonated was but I guess it was just about the relationship to the person and being dead was just chance.

 

I don't like AvaLance since I don't really care for Ava (although I did like her here) but I do wish Sara hadn't broken with her. I'd like to see Sara be happy for a while especially since I'm fairly convinced more pain's coming her way because her father seems headed for death.

Edited March 20, 2018 by JamieLynn832002

[quarks]

Black Panther and special effects budgets:

https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/24/black-panther-vfx-models/?sr_source=Twitter

[JJ928]

9 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

keke @JJ928 would be happy =P

Yes. Yes, I would lol.

[Starfish35]

Unrounded preliminary numbers and half-hours from RJK at SpottedRatings.com:

Quote

Legends of Tomorrow .......... 0.391 ... (0.407 ... 0.374)
iZombie ................................ 0.239 ... (0.257 ... 0.220)

Last night's numbers (finals):

Edited March 20, 2018 by Starfish35
Updating with final numbers

[JJ928]

Question for you guys. I've seen a couple people say that LOT changed the incident, where Sara killed that father last night, from how she originally described it. Is this true? Does anyone remember what's different? I asked on twitter but haven't gotten an answer yet.

[Sakura12]

I think the only difference was she said she saw his kids find him in the morning. There was another kid and it didn't happen all at once. 

I could go with MallusNora dream showing her what happened instead of the actual memory. 

[Katsullivan]

The new Supergirl promo seemed to have a lot more James Olsen than usual or is it just me? More evidence of AK's stamp being erased from that show? 

[JJ928]

Thanks @Sakura12

[Starfish35]

I haven't seen last night's episode yet, but here's what Sara said in "League of Assassins": (Source)

Quote

A year ago, I was in Guyana. I was sent there for a man named Suarez.  He was a local diplomat. And I slit his throat.  In his bed. And his kids...They found his body in the morning. I'm a murderer, Ollie. You think that my family will be happy to see me?

5 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

The new Supergirl promo seemed to have a lot more James Olsen than usual or is it just me? More evidence of AK's stamp being erased from that show? 

Here's the promo:

[Sakura12]

Right, she slit his throat and didn't just throw a knife at him. That would've been a more personal kill. I guess they didn't want to show Sara be too dark. Even though they showed Rip snapping her next last season. 

[Katsullivan]

On 22/02/2018 at 4:00 PM, quarks said:

During Flashpoint, Cisco was depicted as the extraordinarily successful leader of Star Labs.

He wasn't a leader. He was a businessman - who resented being involved in "Superhero business". 

 

On 22/02/2018 at 4:00 PM, quarks said:

Caitlin was also shown taking a leadership/management role at Star Labs before the explosion. She's also taken on leadership roles during the crossover episodes and occasionally during missions. Killer Frost has definitely been shown to have leadership potential.

I don't know where to start with this one: what between the fact that Caitlin/Killer Frost is schizophrenic under high pressure situations or that Killer Frost betrayed and helped murder a member of Team Flash should qualify her to even be a member of Team Flash, much less lead it?

[Starfish35]

5 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Right, she slit his throat and didn't just throw a knife at him. That would've been a more personal kill. I guess they didn't want to show Sara be too dark. Even though they showed Rip snapping her next last season. 

Was it the same incident?  (Again, I haven't watched last night's episode yet.)  Sara never said in "League of Assassins" that this incident was why she left.  She's just using it as an example of why she's a murderer and her family wouldn't want to see her.  In fact, since she says "a year ago", she apparently stayed with the League for several more months after that.  

[Sakura12]

They made it seem like it was that incident. Or she had another similar incident and went to do it again later. 

[Cleanqueen]

The Sara and Ava stuff just fell flat for me, I dont see any chemistry between them so I am glad they broke up and I hope she doesn't return after next week. 

Sara and RIP are my fav pair on the waverider. 

[Starfish35]

Unrounded finals for last week from RJK at SpottedRatings:

Quote

Here were some unrounded L+SD FINALS for last week (March 12-18):

CW
The Flash ....................... 0.718
Black Lightning ............... 0.477
Riverdale ........................ 0.422
Legends of Tomorrow .... 0.386
iZombie .......................... 0.261
Jane the Virgin ............... 0.226
Life Sentence ................. 0.180
Dynasty .......................... 0.136

Edited March 20, 2018 by Starfish35
Added Dynasty numbers

[tv echo]

So DC's next two big movie releases are Aquaman and Shazam - and Shazam is going to be released a month after Marvel's Captain Marvel. Who makes these decisions?...

DC's Shazam! movie sets 2019 release date
JAMES HIBBERD January 12, 2018 AT 03:11 PM EST
http://ew.com/movies/2018/01/12/shazam-release-date/?utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly

Quote

After years in development, DC’s Shazam! movie officially has a release date.

The film starring Zachary Levi (Chuck) as Captain Marvel is going to be released on April 5, 2019. The film has also reportedly cast Mark Strong (The Kingsman franchise) as its as-yet-unidentified villain and has David F. Samberg (Lights Out) as director.

Shazam! tells the story of a young boy (Asher Angel) who is able to transform into a grown-up superhero named Captain Marvel by saying the magic word “Shazam.”

The DC Comics character is not to be confused with Marvel Comics’ Captain Marvel, a.k.a. Carol Danvers, who was originally known as “Ms. Marvel.” (That character is getting her own movie on March 8, 2019, starring Brie Larson as the Air Force pilot who gains superpowers thanks to some alien genetics.) After Marvel Comics trademarked the name “Captain Marvel,” DC began marketing its own Captain Marvel as “Shazam.”
*  *  *
Next up: The Aquaman standalone film, which comes out Dec. 21, 2018.

Edited March 20, 2018 by tv echo

[Starfish35]

CW L+7 Ratings for the week of March 5. Source

• The Flash 1.48, 3.869M
• Supernatural 0.92, 2.733M
• Black Lightning 0.92, 2.481M
• Riverdale 0.88, 2.223M
• Arrow 0.75, 2.155M
• Legends of Tomorrow 0.74, 2.049M
• iZombie 0.51, 1.398M
• Jane the Virgin 0.51, 1.121M
• Life Sentence 0.44, 1.190M

I didn't see any numbers for Dynasty.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Starfish35

[quarks]

4 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

I don't know where to start with this one: what between the fact that Caitlin/Killer Frost is schizophrenic under high pressure situations or that Killer Frost betrayed and helped murder a member of Team Flash should qualify her to even be a member of Team Flash, much less lead it?

1. Oliver Queen spent the first season of Arrow and five seasons of flashbacks murdering multiple people. He also betrayed his entire team, arranging for the kidnapping of a teammate's kid, and landing the rest of the team in a small cell to be slowly killed by poison gas. He still leads Team Arrow.

2. Dinah Drake killed people in her introductory episode, spent the entire first half of this season lying to her teammates about her involvement with Vigilante, and concealing her knowledge about the extent of Diggle's injuries. She still leads Team Not Arrow.

3. Sara Lance spent several years as an assassin, something that still haunts her as of last night's episode, to the point where she feels unworthy of being in a happy relationship, just spent last episode nearly murdering her entire team and gravely injuring several of them, and still leads Team Legends. 

This is even more egregious than Team Arrow and Team Not Arrow, since those teams have always been comprised of ethically compromised people. Team Legends, in contrast, usually consists of a mix of ethically compromised people (Mick, Leonard, Sara, Rip, more arguably Zari this season, and now Constantine) and unambiguously good characters who have never murdered or intentionally harmed anyone (everyone else). Ok, there was that one time back in Arrow season three where Ray left poor Roy twitching in a puddle, but as Arrow later confirmed, that was a production error. Ray, Nate, Amaya and Wally aren't killers. Nor were Stein and Jax back when they were members of the team, and Zari, although not exactly straitlaced, hasn't murdered anyone. Nonetheless, the leaders of Team Legends have always come from the ethically compromised side (Rip and Sara).

Also, as Legends of Tomorrow has said, Mick Rory remains a full member of their team despite betraying them more than once. Sara was immediately welcomed back as team leader even after nearly murdering the entire team (and Ava and Gary). Sure, she was under the control of another personality during last night's episode when she nearly murdered her entire team - but that's pretty much the same situation that Caitlin/Killer Frost was in last season (under the control of another personality), and the script was clear: just like Killer Frost is partly Caitlin, the Death Demon totem is also partly Sara. 

4. At the end of last season, Kara Danvers deliberately released lead, a toxin, into the atmosphere, knowing it would result in the genocide of several people, and killed Rhea. She previously briefly turned into a villain while under the influence of Red Kryptonite.  She is still a part of Team Supergirl and the DEO. Mon-El, who told her to release the toxin, despite knowing it would kill his own mother, is the leader of the Legion of Superheroes. J'onn J'onzz has killed/murdered more than one character, and remains the leader of the DEO. 

5. Iris murdered Savatar - a future version of Barry - at the end of last season. Barry directly killed various metahumans at the start of season three - and that's without even getting into the major ethical mess of his time traveling. Bear in mind, this season alone several people are dead as a direct result of self-absorbed choices that Barry Allen made. Barry's emergence from the Speed Force turned them into metahumans, and thus targets of the Thinker, because of Barry's emergence from the Speed Force - a Speed Force that he was only in because of his selfish decision to change the past, something he was warned multiple times would have severe consequences.

Meanwhile, Julian was also temporarily turned into a villain/killer thanks to outside influences, and later welcomed into the team.

6. That is, every single leader of the CW superhero shows has killed/outright murdered at least one person, and at least three other characters have temporarily turned into villains (or in Sara's case, kinda back into a villain) only to be welcomed back into their teams.  And that's not even including the various times when the teams have temporarily teamed up with villains (or quasi-villainous group ARGUS) out of necessity.

So while sure, we could argue that killing/betraying team members should get you kicked off a team, for the most part, the shows disagree. To the point of making the exact opposite argument, with Arrow this season showing that refusing to forgive betrayals and splitting up the team has left both teams less effective, leading to the deaths of multiple extras and Rene's severe injury, and Legends of Tomorrow just last night showing that splitting up the party nearly got everyone killed. 

So if you're going to argue that Caitlin/Killer Frost doesn't belong on the team, you need to argue why that standard applies only to Caitlin (who, remember, only has this dual personality problem in the first place because of Barry, not because of any of her decisions/actions) and not to other characters - including characters on Flash. 

7. Caitlin is not schizophrenic. She has a dual personality order. The two are not the same thing. 

8. My real problem, however, is with your argument that people with mental disorders aren't even qualified to be members of teams. I find this statement not just offensive, but absolutely appalling. I think it's one thing not to like a character (especially Caitlin, who hasn't exactly been written/performed to be as likable as Iris and Kara, or as sympathetic as Sara and even, to an extent, Laurel). It's another thing to make an argument like this, and suggest that disabled people can't be leaders or superheroes. 

And not an argument embraced by any of the Arrowverse shows, all of which have welcomed members dealing with an assortment of mental illnesses or metaphorical stand-ins for mental illnesses. 

9. Meanwhile, this all completely misses my original point, which was to note that Flash has previously shown Caitlin in leadership roles at both Star and Mercury Labs, while failing to do so with Iris. That isn't an argument that Caitlin should be the leader of Team Flash; it's yet another observation of the way that Flash has often failed to write some very needed character beats for Iris. In this particular case, a simple side comment back in season one about Iris getting a promotion to assistant manager at Jitters or something, or saying something back in season two about leading a group investigation into some sort of weird thing in Central City, would have eliminated most of this issue.

[Katsullivan]

@quarks: 

(1) - (4) - the most significant thing in the list of examples is that it's Arrow-heavy and includes nothing from The Flash (show). Which makes sense considering that the two shows have always emphasised the differences in the moral tone of their heroes, and the show in general. "The Flash" is not expected to endorse the same kind of morality as the "Arrow".

(5) & (6) - I stated that Caitlin/Frost's murder of a team member, specifically describing it as a betrayal - as opposed to just killing in general. Apart from the fact that The Flash generally treats the taking of human lives differently from the other shows (see above. also Grodd), I should hope that it's clear that there's a difference between Captain Singh, a career police-officer who has undoubtedly taking the lives of alleged criminals being able to lead CCPD as opposed to if he deliberately murdered one of his officers.

Also:

Quote

Barry's emergence from the Speed Force turned them into metahumans

Is a good example of why Iris is more suitable than any other member of the Team to lead. 

(7) - I agree partly. She has neither. Her condition is undefined, and does not even qualify as a metaphorical stand-in for a mental disorder since it is curable* (as opposed to treatable). 

*A cure that Caitlin refused to take. 

(8) - Caitlin's conditions make her unqualified to lead team Flash for the same reason that a visually impaired person is unqualified to be a school-bus driver. 

I'm not sure the real-life implications of a police office shooting his partner because of a psychological condition, but I imagine that at the very least he would need to demonstrate that his condition is being treated such that the situation is not going to re-occur, not so much due to a prejudice against mentally impaired people but in order to ensure the safety of his colleagues after he has already demonstrated that he can be unsafe to them.

So while the origins of her affliction are sympathetic, they do not absolve her from taking responsibility for making herself safe/not a threat to the other members of the team. By refusing the Cure and her associations during the hiatus, the show has not demonstrated that she has done so. (Generally, the show has written the entire Killer Frost/Caitlin arc very problematically anyway.)

(9) - Agree to disagree. Caitlin is not qualified to lead, both for the reasons caused by her Frost personality and because pre-Killer Frost, she did not demonstrate any significant leadership skills that made her suitable for the position in comparison to Iris. Pre-Killer Frost, Caitlin Snow was a competent follower, not a leader. Perhaps you can give tangible examples of her showing leadership skills in Star Labs or Mercury Labs. The latter surprises me because I thought her escape to Mercury Labs was a clear example of how she lacked both the ability to compartmentalize, and the commitment to be a team Leader. 

Iris, on the other hand, has shown cool-headness under great personal crisis, the ability to remain steadfast to a code of conduct regardless of circumstances, and prioritise others above her own needs. In addition she has demonstrated the ability to motivate herself and others, and great personal courage - and all this before season 4. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Katsullivan

[apinknightmare]

15 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

(9) - Agree to disagree. Caitlin is not qualified to lead, both for the reasons caused by her Frost personality and because pre-Killer Frost, she did not demonstrate any significant leadership skills that made her suitable for the position in comparison to Iris. Pre-Killer Frost, Caitlin Snow was a competent follower, not a leader. Perhaps you can give tangible examples of her showing leadership skills in Star Labs or Mercury Labs. The latter surprises me because I thought her escape to Mercury Labs was a clear example of how she lacked both the ability to compartmentalize, and the commitment to be a team Leader. 

You guys aren't disagreeing, though? Quarks wrote that she wasn't arguing that Caitlin should be leader, just that Flash had written Caitlin in leadership roles, beats she believes should've have been written for Iris before she was made leader of the team. 

[Katsullivan]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

You guys aren't disagreeing, though? Quarks wrote that she wasn't arguing that Caitlin should be leader, just that Flash had written Caitlin in leadership roles, beats she believes should've have been written for Iris before she was made leader of the team. 

I disagree that: The Flash had written Caitlin in leadership roles and that Iris was written without leadership qualities. 

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

. Ok, there was that one time back in Arrow season three where Ray left poor Roy twitching in a puddle, but as Arrow later confirmed, that was a production error.

LOL that will never stop being funny.  

[Mellowyellow]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

Ok, there was that one time back in Arrow season three where Ray left poor Roy twitching in a puddle, but as Arrow later confirmed, that was a production error.

They did??? OMG serious?

Lol guess that absolves my Ray.

I am pretty sure he meant to kill Dark Arrow in the Crossover though. He said something like "I thought that guy was dead" and he shot him earlier so I think that was intended to be a kill shot.

[apinknightmare]

14 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

I disagree that: The Flash had written Caitlin in leadership roles and that Iris was written without leadership qualities. 

But you're asking her to show you examples where Caitlin was shown to have leadership skills, and that's not what she's arguing? You can write a story where someone is a CEO of a company without ever demonstrating the skills that got them there. That's why she mentioned that a side comment about Iris getting a management position at Jitters would've done the trick to make this story click more for her, not that she needed to see Iris actually being the manager. 

[statsgirl]

17 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

I disagree that: The Flash had written Caitlin in leadership roles and that Iris was written without leadership qualities. 

Iris has been written as having qualities that could potentially make her a leader, as has Caitlin (pre-Killer Frost she had a number of good ideas that the rest of the team followed), but when Iris gets around Barry, it's all about him and not about what she herself can do. That's not leadership.

Iris thinking that the way to bring Barry back was to get herself kidnapped so he could save her should have knocked her out of the leadership position for good.

[Mellowyellow]

I honestly think they realised Iris has no role and skills besides being a LI and it would take too much time to develop her journalist skills so they whacked her into the team leader position and it is a quick and handy solution for them to keep Iris relevant besides being the LI.

This is Arrowverse! I just go with it! They could declare her to be frigging BC next season and I'd go with it not expecting much logic.

[Katsullivan]

11 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

But you're asking her to show you examples where Caitlin was shown to have leadership skills, and that's not what she's arguing? You can write a story where someone is a CEO of a company without ever demonstrating the skills that got them there. That's why she mentioned that a side comment about Iris getting a management position at Jitters would've done the trick to make this story click more for her, not that she needed to see Iris actually being the manager. 

Because even though they're easy enough to confuse and there's a tendency to use them inter-changeably, leadership and management skills are not the same. The ability to run Jitters, Mercury Labs, or any other well-oiled organisation is entirely different from being able to motivate and inspire people, make objective decisions during external and personal crisis, prioritize the team above one's own self, all the while not compromising your moral code. 

10 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Iris gets around Barry, it's all about him and not about what she herself can do. That's not leadership.

Patently false. Given the choice between saving Caitlin and Barry, she chose to save Caitlin because she knew objectively that Barry had a better chance of saving himself. 

10 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Iris thinking that the way to bring Barry back was to get herself kidnapped so he could save her should have knocked her out of the leadership position for good.

 A twofer that not only neutralised the Samurai but cured Barry/brought back The Flash ... is an example of bad leadership?

Edited March 20, 2018 by Katsullivan

[Morrigan2575]

24 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

They did??? OMG serious?

Lol guess that absolves my Ray.

I am pretty sure he meant to kill Dark Arrow in the Crossover though. He said something like "I thought that guy was dead" and he shot him earlier so I think that was intended to be a kill shot.

It was hilarious. The show was so focused on the Epic Hero Bonding (between GA/ATOM) moment that they forgot about poor Roy, electrocuted, flung against a fence and laying in a puddle of water.

Right after the episode everyone started tweeting MG. What happened to Roy? is he dead? GA just left him there!

Ooops ?

Edited March 20, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[Mellowyellow]

ahhh the boys fighting over Felicity! *insert repetitive comment about how S3 was the best*

[apinknightmare]

9 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Because even though they're easy enough to confuse and there's a tendency to use them inter-changeably, leadership and management skills are not the same. The ability to run Jitters, Mercury Labs, or any other well-oiled organisation is entirely different from being able to motivate and inspire people, make objective decisions during external and personal crisis, prioritize the team above one's own self, all the while not compromising your moral code. 

Quarks didn't argue that Caitlin had leadership and management skills that Iris doesn't - just that she show had shown Caitlin in leadership roles and she would've liked to have seen that with Iris. I'm really not sure where the lines are getting crossed here, LOL.

Edited March 20, 2018 by apinknightmare

[Katsullivan]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Quarks didn't argue that Caitlin someone had leadership and management skills that Iris doesn't - just that she show had shown Caitlin in leadership roles and she would've liked to have seen that with Iris. 

And again, I said that Caitlin was not shown in any leadership roles (which is not equivalent to management roles) and that she has demonstrated negative leadership skills i.e. skills that objectively make her a bad leader. Which is why we don't agree. 

Quote

I'm really not sure where the lines are getting crossed here, LOL.

And neither do I. *shrugs* If it's all the same to you, I'm moving on from this. 

[way2interested]

32 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I am pretty sure he meant to kill Dark Arrow in the Crossover though. He said something like "I thought that guy was dead" and he shot him earlier so I think that was intended to be a kill shot.

That was a comment about seeing Reverse Flash, since he died back in the LoT s2 finale yet was still running around with Team Nazi. Ray's still the boy scout.

Edited March 20, 2018 by way2interested

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

That was a comment about seeing Reverse Flash, since he died back in the LoT s2 finale yet was still running around with Team Nazi. Ray's still the boy scout.

Ahhh that makes sense! Not that I would have judged him for wanting to kill Dark Arrow but that makes more sense! 

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

And again, I said that Caitlin was not shown in any leadership roles (which is not equivalent to management roles) and that she has demonstrated negative leadership skills i.e. skills that objectively make her a bad leader. Which is why we don't agree. 

But...she specifically wrote that she wasn't arguing that Caitlin should be the leader of Team Flash, which was why I was confused. 

2 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

And neither do I. *shrugs* If it's all the same to you, I'm moving on from this. 

Yes, let's!

[Trini]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

9. Meanwhile, this all completely misses my original point, which was to note that Flash has previously shown Caitlin in leadership roles at both Star and Mercury Labs, while failing to do so with Iris. That isn't an argument that Caitlin should be the leader of Team Flash; it's yet another observation of the way that Flash has often failed to write some very needed character beats for Iris. In this particular case, a simple side comment back in season one about Iris getting a promotion to assistant manager at Jitters or something, or saying something back in season two about leading a group investigation into some sort of weird thing in Central City, would have eliminated most of this issue.

Not true. The show has shown her in leadership roles at STAR labs in previous seasons. Her Season 4 leader role wasn't planned that far back, but was not completely out of the blue.

 

47 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

... Iris thinking that the way to bring Barry back was to get herself kidnapped so he could save her should have knocked her out of the leadership position for good.

?? Her plan that worked exactly as intended and saved the day?

[BkWurm1]

Quote

A twofer that not only neutralised the Samurai but cured Barry/brought back The Flash ... is an example of bad leadership?

 

58 minutes ago, Trini said:

Her plan that worked exactly as intended and saved the day?

Except that all she did was get incredibly lucky.  She'd been to see Barry before and couldn't break through.  The way it was presented wasn't that she thought her actions were what would fix Barry but she was finally going to just blindly have faith that everything would be alright.  That was what her father (I think it was her dad) convinced her she needed to have but he never meant deliberately give the enemy an advantage and risk your life with not reason to believe Barry COULD save you.  Iris took a message that was supposed to have her thinking positively about the future and holding onto hope that Barry would be ok eventually to her PUTTING her life at risk when she knew Barry was still trapped in his own mind.  If she'd been certain the way to fix Barry was to make him think her life was at stake, they could have conveyed that info to him without her ACTUALLY (and IMO extremely stupidly) putting her life at risk. And more than just at risk. It was certain death had he not miraculously finally woken up.  

I won't give Iris any leadership credit for making a terrible choice and just getting lucky. 

She did show some skills in the Flashpoint world where she worked with her brother, but then Barry erased that as well.  So we could say she had leadership potential given what we'd seen before but yeah, the season opener this year really undermined her IMO.  And even now, even if she's not doing a bad job, it still feels like everyone is just letting her be leader so she has something to do (and is the wife) not because no one else could step up and do the job.  

[Mellowyellow]

8 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

She did show some skills in the Flashpoint world where she worked with her brother, but then Barry erased that as well.  So we could say she had leadership potential given what we'd seen before but yeah, the season opener this year really undermined her IMO.  And even now, even if she's not doing a bad job, it still feels like everyone is just letting her be leader so she has something to do (and is the wife) not because no one else could step up and do the job.  

hehe I bet the Flash writers thought they were incredibly clever to insert in "We are The Flash" comments repeatedly as part of their set up for Iris's "leadership".

[Primal Slayer]

I understood Iris stepping up when TF was just her/Cisco/Wally but since the entire team is back, they really dont need to have a designated leader. Especially in this show you don't really get to "lead"

[Trini]

12 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Except that all she did was get incredibly lucky. ...

I disagree. I think she knew it was what was needed to get Barry back. Their special connection (between each other and the speed force) is one of the recurring themes of the show. And there was an element of risk, but that's a part of leadership.

In any case, it's great that Iris is inspiring this conversation about leadership. Some thought her role was only going to last for a couple episodes.

[BkWurm1]

45 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I understood Iris stepping up when TF was just her/Cisco/Wally but since the entire team is back, they really dont need to have a designated leader. Especially in this show you don't really get to "lead"

I think Iris has at this point been designated leader but members of the team frequently just do their own thing without running things by her.  And if she disagrees, unless it's about an in the field moment, I don't think she could or even would stop them.  

44 minutes ago, Trini said:

I disagree. I think she knew it was what was needed to get Barry back. Their special connection (between each other and the speed force) is one of the recurring themes of the show. And there was an element of risk, but that's a part of leadership.

 

 

If that was the intended case, I wish they done a much better job of conveying it as a reasonable choice as opposed to setting it up as a random leap of faith after getting an inspiring pep talk.  She and the show overcorrected, going from almost unfeeling and cold logic to abandoning any sense as a display of love.  

I mean think of it this way, if Barry had stayed in a catatonic state and someone else had to save Iris, would it mean that Barry didn't actually love Iris?  That's the kind of lack of logic her actions seemed to me.  

It's not like Barry was a bit drugged or fighting some kind of mind control and needed to be reminded of his love for Iris to help him fight off the condition.  He was recovering from having his mind scrambled by the Speed Force.  Nothing about the situation suggested it was something he could overcome if he really wanted to.  But that was how what was basically Iris's ultimatum to Barry rang.  If you love me, you will save me.  She got lucky and he responded but I wouldn't have assumed he didn't care if he couldn't have woken up.  

Edited March 21, 2018 by BkWurm1

[WindofChange]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

the season opener this year really undermined her IMO.  And even now, even if she's not doing a bad job, it still feels like everyone is just letting her be leader so she has something to do (and is the wife) not because no one else could step up and do the job.  

I actually noticed this just recently but one of the biggest reasons Iris became the leader is because she supposedly kept the team together over the summer... LoT (and Flash) sorta destroyed this foundation that was shakily built by having Wally say that he felt unnecessary and not necessarily a part of the team. What makes it worse is that we didn't even see how she kept the team together. From what we saw she was barely keeping the team together as Caitlin wasn't even on the team, Cisco was going behind her back, and Wally felt unneeded. 

If Iris' big role was to keep them together she failed miserably at the ONE REASON she became leader in the first place.

So yeah I agree that both Flash/LoT undermined Iris becoming team leader. 

[Primal Slayer]

I dont think Wally feeling unneeded had anything to do with anything that went down over the summer. It was more that he didnt feel needed after Barry came back and was shoved to background.

[statsgirl]

Wally feeling that he wasn't valued or needed is a result of poor leadership.  A good leader makes everyone feel valued.

Another example of where the longterm plotting failed Iris is that Caitlin had an MD and a PhD while Iris was still floundering around trying to figure out what to do with her life.  Later, when Ronnie died, Caitlin mourned then continued on with her career.  When Barry was trapped at the end of last season, Iris gave up her career for Barry's.  Leadership involves having a sense of who you are and a direction to head in, not waiting for someone else to point your way.

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Their special connection (between each other and the speed force) is one of the recurring themes of the show. And there was an element of risk, but that's a part of leadership.

It seems more like magical thinking to me. 

I will accept that it's part of the show's world that Iris and Barry have a special connection to each other but that doesn't make counting on it good leadership.

4 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

ahhh the boys fighting over Felicity! *insert repetitive comment about how S3 was the best*

How I hated that episode, where Ray completely dismissed Felicity asking him to give the Arrow a chance and Ray dismissing her entirely because she has girly girly feelings. And then Ray listens to Oliver instead, Oliver who he had been fighting all episode, instead of the woman he professes to care for.

[WindofChange]

But again... If the biggest reason Iris became the team leader was to keep the team together in the end she failed because she let Wally feel the way he did... That automatically undermines the reason she became the leader in the first place.