Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Carrie Ann]

I'm happy for Adrianne Palicki, and I think she's great as Bobbi, but Nick Blood does nothing for me and I don't feel any chemistry between them so I'm kind of bummed they're building a show with that relationship at the center. But I'm not even a regular AOS viewer, so I will probably just skip this one and hope AP finds something better sometime.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[FurryFury]

Considering how Gotham ratings tanked last week, it's probably too little, too late. I hated Barbara from the first sight, personally. She was even worse than Laurel for me. But then, I was wary of Gotham's female representation ever since before the premiere, and I think I was proven right. Fish Mooney was the only one who seemed somewhat interesting, and they are still killing her off soon.

 

I just read in the Agents of SHIELD forum that the AOS spinoff is going to star Adrienne Palicki and Nick Blood as Bobbi (Mockingbird) and Hunter.  Not sure how I feel about that.

 

I can't stand Hunter and their "romance", so I'm not sure I'll bother watching. Depends on the rest of the cast, I guess.

Edited April 21, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

On Gotham, they're starting to salvage the Barbara character.   When she was part of a couple with Jim Gordon, she was a whiny rich girl who had zero chemistry with Gordon.  Then they separated.  Now she's paired up with a serial killer and is showing a dark side.  The Arrow EPs could take a lesson from this...

 

Agreed. Barbara is finally interesting now and I want to see her storyline play out. It's still the first season and they managed to go with what works with her so far. Don't know how long it's going to last. But they have succeeded where Arrow is still failing 3 seasons later.

 

Also even BabyBatman had a successful first date with Catween. Take that Oliver Queen.

 

Yes, I know this was after she just murdered a guy and they only went to so they could steal and make a copy of a key from the guy that ordered them killed. But, hey points for being pro-active. 

 

I just read in the Agents of SHIELD forum that the AOS spinoff is going to star Adrienne Palicki and Nick Blood as Bobbi (Mockingbird) and Hunter.  Not sure how I feel about that.

 

Love Bobbi, not so sure about Hunter. He's okay and has some good lines other than that he doesn't do much for me. Their relationship is also the least interesting thing about both of them. If they are the same show I hope they remain just friends. Also this better not be the reason Agent Carter is not picked up. If so, Netflix please step in. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by Sakura12

[tv echo]

The Villains Take Center Stage in These New ‘Arrow’ and ‘Flash’ Posters
Posted on April 20, 2015 by Staff in Arrow, The Flash
http://cwtvsource.com/2015/04/20/the-villains-take-center-stage-in-these-new-arrow-and-flash-posters/

 

Edited April 21, 2015 by tv echo

[Lokiberry]

I just read in the Agents of SHIELD forum that the AOS spinoff is going to star Adrienne Palicki and Nick Blood as Bobbi (Mockingbird) and Hunter.  Not sure how I feel about that.

 

On Gotham, they're starting to salvage the Barbara character.   When she was part of a couple with Jim Gordon, she was a whiny rich girl who had zero chemistry with Gordon.  Then they separated.  Now she's paired up with a serial killer and is showing a dark side.  The Arrow EPs could take a lesson from this...

I like Bobbi and Hunter, but I like them livening up AoS. I'm not sure it's a good idea to send away the really good characters from a show that's had so much trouble keeping people interested in the past.

 

I also agree that they're starting to do something interesting with Barbara. She looked absolutely stunning at the Wayne Charity Ball, and she's got really strong, disturbing chemistry with 50 Shades of Milo. As someone said in the Gotham forum, Jim might end up having  to save him from her. It's encouraging that the producers of Gotham recognize their problems (instead of blaming the audience for reacting the way it does) and take steps to correct them. It bodes well for the future of the show.

[calliope1975]

I like Bobbi and Hunter, but I like them livening up AoS. I'm not sure it's a good idea to send away the really good characters from a show that's had so much trouble keeping people interested in the past.

 

Agreed. I like AoS, but I watch it and pretty much forget it. I'd rather they have more interesting limited series like Agent Carter or the rumored Kamala Khan/Ms. Marvel limited series. Mockingbird brought some much needed oomph to AoS; now's not the time to remove her from the show. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Poor Oliver is barely on that new Arrow poster, but I guess he still doesn't have it as bad as Barry, who doesn't even manage an appearance on The Flash poster.

[Sakura12]

Since I'm not going to bother looking, did "Black Canary" get a poster? 

Edited April 21, 2015 by Sakura12

[FurryFury]

Well, she's on Malcolm poster that's on this page. With Oliver, Barry (why?) and Oliver. There's only another one, with Reverse Flash.

 

It's a bit weird Malcolm got a poster, of all characters. Isn't Ra's the current big bad of Arrow?

[Delphi]

It's hardly the weirdest thing though, considering Roy got that fancy promo pic in his Arsenal get up about thirty seconds before they booted him off.

[BkWurm1]

Not sure if this is the place for it and it's probably already been talked about, but what are your guys' thoughts on Arrow!Oliver against Smaillville!Oliver? And for that matter Oliver/Felicity and Oliver/Chloe? Neither of those shows stayed with canon on the whole Black Canary/Green Arrow romance.

They're such different characters I tend not to compare them.  Ollie of Smallville, while a lighter character was in an odd way at times a more noticeably dysfunctional character though he clearly suffered a lot less horror in his "island" experience (I recall him complaining about mosquitos).  He by Smallville standards crossed lines he shouldn't have and then wallowed in his drunken guilt becoming ineffective until Chloe pulled out an elaborate plan to knock sense into him.  He evolved into his best self the last two seasons I think but even then he was still crossing lines (like falling to the darkness and being used against Clark) but that almost seemed secondary to the happy warm and stable guy he seemed to become (which credit goes IMO to Chloe and Justin and Allison's great chemistry). 

 

Oliver of Arrow by comparison is a more consistent character.  He always carries around his guilt and while he does sometimes wallow, (I mean more than normal) he I feel comes off more sympathetic because his pain and regret just radiates off the screen and he benefits from not just the occasional save but constant support from his team.  His guilt and suffering actually make him the fighter he is.  Arrow is more emotionally rich but it is his show so again it isn't entirely fair to compare.  Plus his emotional journey is still so much underway.  He's grown a lot but for every step forward he's been brutally shoved back by life. 

 

I adore both Chloe and Felicity but I won't compare them too deeply.   They are both information specialists, bottled blonds, and the secret weapon in Oliver Queen's quiver but I feel that is where their similarities largely end.  They are so different with different motivations and agenda's and histories.   It's funny, Chloe remains the younger character but she feels older to me, like she personally has gone through more heartache and sacrifice and disappointment while Felicity had a chance to achieve some of her goals before she was put in a position where the question of personal sacrifice comes up and apart from a stint as an EA, she's managed to put herself forward and not get entirely lost in the mission while Chloe sacrificed her very existence and name and was only managing to find something to individually hold onto at the end of the series.   

 

Don't get me wrong, I truly love both characters and after ten years with Chloe she's ranked up there with my permanent favorites ever and I suspect Felicity will to but Chloe still has the edge for now.  

Edited April 21, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Trini]

Poor Oliver is barely on that new Arrow poster, but I guess he still doesn't have it as bad as Barry, who doesn't even manage an appearance on The Flash poster.

 

The Flash has his own poster.

[Tangerine]

So, was it just me or was Laurel actually like a zillion times better on tonight's episode of The Flash than she ever was on Arrow?

[apinknightmare]

So, was it just me or was Laurel actually like a zillion times better on tonight's episode of The Flash than she ever was on Arrow?

 

She was, but the whole canary cry exchange was about a million times lamer than I could have ever imagined. But yeah, the lighter tone definitely did her some favors.

[Tangerine]

She was, but the whole canary cry exchange was about a million times lamer than I could have ever imagined. But yeah, the lighter tone definitely did her some favors.

 

Totally. I hated the nature of the conversation and the reason for it, but she was actually fairly enjoyable to watch for once.

[tennisgurl]

I`ll watch the spin-off with Bobbi and Hunter on AoS, because I like those characters, but I am disappointed they're leaving AoS. And I wish they chose to focus on some new characters, or someone with powers, to mix things up.

[kismet]

So, was it just me or was Laurel actually like a zillion times better on tonight's episode of The Flash than she ever was on Arrow?

Totally forgot the Flash was on tonight! Ooops. Do I need to watch the episode to actually know anything about Arrow? Or can I just catch up with this episode later in few days/weeks?

[statsgirl]

Cisco (Carlos Valdez) makes everyone better. First Ray last week, and Laurel this week.  I refuse to let Cisco represent me as part of the audience and I still fail to see KC's comedic timing, but the scenes were okay.

 

 

Totally forgot the Flash was on tonight! Ooops. Do I need to watch the episode to actually know anything about Arrow? Or can I just catch up with this episode later in few days/weeks?

Nope.  Cisco fangirled Laurel and gave her the canary cry choker, and Joe told Quentin to forgive his daughter.  I wanted Quentin to impress on Joe how bad lying to your relative is, but instead we got Joe 'splainin' it  and telling Quentin his heart would be better if he made up with Laurel.

 

Still pretty great to see Paul Blackthorne and Jesse Martin share scenes.

[BkWurm1]

I'm sorry all I did was cringe during Laurels scenes. Also Quentin thought it important to remind us all he has a heart problem. Not so hopeful for his survival. :(

[looptab]

So, how did Laurel know about Barry? Did they say who told her?

[statsgirl]

She said she met Barry when he came by Starling City to see her friends, John Diggle, Felicity Smoak and Oliver Queen. nudge, nudge, wink, wink.  Then she asked Cisco to work up some tech for Sara's canary cry gizmo, which Laurel just happened to have in her briefcase.  (Does she carry it around all the time?  How does she keep other people from seeing it?)

 

When was Barry in Central City so that Laurel could have met him?  After the Arrow vs Flash battle when Caitlin and Cisco had left?

 

Cisco was cute being all excited puppy dog around her but no way does he stand in for me as a part of the audience.

[tessaray]

Totally forgot the Flash was on tonight! Ooops. Do I need to watch the episode to actually know anything about Arrow? Or can I just catch up with this episode later in few days/weeks?

 

Well, they did discover tachyons still hanging around after 15 years in SC, where Harrison and Tess Wells had their car accident.  Not that even time travel could help S3 to date but there's always hope...

[quarks]

I have no idea how Laurel knew about Barry or Cisco, and to be honest, the main question that raised for me was "Why is no one telling Iris?"

 

I'm having problems working out how the Joe/Cisco visit works in the Arrow timeline. My thoughts:

 

1. Joe/Cisco showed up sometime before episode 318 on Arrow. Problem: if so, why didn't Laurel use her Canary cry in episode 318 against the League of Assassins?  So I think they had to show up later than this.

 

2. Joe/Cisco showed up sometime between episodes 318/319.  This explains why Laurel didn't use her Canary cry, but leads to the question of why, exactly, Quentin called off his hunt for Oliver to go chat with Joe about father/daughter issues and hunt for dead bodies in the wood, while leaving Oliver and Roy at the police station - since it seems that Roy gave himself up at the end of episode 318, but was still in the police station, not yet booked, in episode 319.

 

3. Joe/Cisco showed up at some point in episode 319 after Roy went to prison and Oliver headed back to the lair, possibly after Quentin searched the loft. This at least explains why Oliver and Roy weren't at the police station when Cisco and Joe arrived, and allows Cisco to be back at Star Labs for the main "there's metahumans everywhere" reveal, and explains why Laurel didn't help defeat the metahuman in episode 319 - she was busy having her picture taken with Cisco.

 

4. Joe/Cisco showed up at some point between episodes 319/320. Right now, this sort of makes sense, depending on what happens in episode 320, but doesn't explain why no one said, "Hey, didn't we just prove that Oliver Queen isn't the Arrow?"

 

5. Tachyons!  Everyone on Flash keeps using that word to explain stuff, so I think I'll borrow that trend. 

[Chaser]

LOL Oliver would face plant so hard at that photo. WE DON'T DO THIS FOR FAME LAUREL. 

 

I see tons of issues with cross overs coming up. No matter how hard they try, if the wrong episode gets thrown off the season goes up in smoke.

[statsgirl]

The problem is that Arrow has been ending each episode in a cliff-hanger lately (317 - Ray shot; 318 - Olver/Roy outed; 319 - Thea dies) so there's no place to put the Flash episode in on it's own.

 

There isn't even time to put it in the middle of Broken Arrow because Quentin is still on full-hunt mode with a search warrant for the lair when Deadbolt shows up so he wouldn't have time to casually go looking at an old accident scene with Joe and Cisco.

 

Maybe it takes place in the middle of 3x20, after

Oliver, Diggle, Felicity and Malcolm have left to take Thea to Nanda Parbat.

.  That would kind of make sense because there is supposed to be a 3 week time break between 320 and 321.

[BkWurm1]

Maybe it takes place in the middle of 3x20, after  Spoiler.  That would kind of make sense because there is supposed to be a 3 week time break between 320 and 321.

 

Yes, this.  It's really the only thing that makes sense for were Quentin's headspace could be.  Can I repeat how much I hated that he brought up his heart condition again.   Oh Quentin, don't die on me!!!

[FurryFury]

Watching the episode right now. Laurel: "I'm the Black Canary". Gah! I wanted to punch her this second to wipe this smug look off her face! I've dropped Arrow to escape her, but she keeps following me!

[Sakura12]

Laurel and Barry should get along, they both love telling everyone their secret identity. I think they want a cookie for being special.

 

I've said it many times, if a person is running around telling everyone they are a hero, they are not a hero in my eyes.  Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Sara and Roy are true heroes because they are not looking for accolades, they are just doing it because it's the right thing to do. Well at least past two seasons Oliver, not this season struck with the idiot stick Oliver. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by Sakura12

[nksarmi]

So, was it just me or was Laurel actually like a zillion times better on tonight's episode of The Flash than she ever was on Arrow?

And they do this ON PURPOSE!  I read somewhere that we would see a difference in tone for Laurel on Flash and that actress really enjoyed it.  Ugh!  Why are we suffering through the Laurel we get when we could have one who cracks a smile and jokes around a little?  I know it was a dark season because Sara died, but I fail to see WHY she needed to die.  Everything that has happened this season......from Malcom's blood debt to Ra's to Laurel becoming BC could have happened in a different way without killing Sara.  Ok maybe not Quentin's rage, but I'm sure they could have contrived something to make that work.

[Carrie Ann]

The BC posturing (and that is ALL it is right now, posturing) still really irritated me on The Flash, and that's when I realized: KC was basically playing Laurel-playing-Sara last night. Laurel was trying to be this cool badass that she isn't (the threat about Cisco telling anyone was laughable), and she seemed more open and light-hearted (like Sara was, despite her trauma). But she was still Laurel underneath that. She was charmed by a guy who was fawning over her, and when she realized who he was, her first thought was to ask him to do something for her. Very in-character. Someone here mentioned that the only thing she really "did" in the episode was to accept a gift, but it wasn't a gift. She made a...request for an upgrade to her sister's gear, and accepted it as her due, then threatened the person who made it for her.

 

So, I didn't actually like Laurel more on The Flash, but I DID like KC more. She's just such a poor fit for the Laurel character, who is a poor fit for the BC role, which is a poor fit on Arrow in general. It's...frustrating.

[Sakura12]

I'm still wondering what Laurel did that was all that great for Cisco to have heard about her and been impressed by her? Is Laurel really living off her sister's glory? Do the people of Starling know that the woman in black is not the same woman in black that was beating up rapists and saving children from burning buildings?

 

Laurel's mask is still so weird. Sara had the best mask, the texture on it made her seem more badass.

[Carrie Ann]

I'm wondering the same thing about the Canary/Black Canary's notoriety. If the "Canary" was a name known widely enough that the Star Labs people would know who Felicity was talking about when she asked Caitlin for help with the DNA sample, but no one knew that she died (except a group of people who wouldn't be spreading that around), then it makes no sense that suddenly "she" would start to be known as the Black Canary instead. I have to conclude that the general public thinks this is the same person, and they've always called her the Black Canary, in which case, yes, that's just Laurel bein' Laurel.

 

Also...pretty sure she casually revealed to Cisco that Sara was the Canary in this ep, which I don't think any of them knew beforehand. People just lose all ability to keep a secret around these Central City guys I guess.

[apinknightmare]

I think Cisco already knows that Sara was the Canary. 

 

Felicity asked Caitlin to help her with DNA from Canary's murder in the Flash episode of the crossover, but when Caitlin returns to Starling City (with Cisco) to get it, she refers to Sara by name.

[Carrie Ann]

Ah, gotcha. I didn't remember that.

[Sakura12]

Then that still leaves the question, what has Laurel done for CIsco to be impressed by? Or does he just think it's hot that a woman in black leather is beating up bad guys?

[tv echo]

Nope.  Cisco fangirled Laurel and gave her the canary cry choker, and Joe told Quentin to forgive his daughter.  I wanted Quentin to impress on Joe how bad lying to your relative is, but instead we got Joe 'splainin' it  and telling Quentin his heart would be better if he made up with Laurel.

So I guess Quentin will end up forgiving Laurel but not Oliver?

[SonofaBiscuit]

I did not watch The Flash, but I saw a gif set online where Cisco talks about quadrupling the range and tripling the resonance of the Canary Choker of Bleeding Eardrums.  Laurel should be able to "do some serious damage with this thing" according to Cisco.  I do not think that the writers have thought this through.  Is Laurel just going to go around shattering people's eardrums?  Seriously.  God help any man or woman who is in the field with her.       

[KirkB]

I'm still trying to work out how Laurel is supposed to use this thing without rupturing her OWN eardrums. Sara had a device which focused them away she held in her hand or threw like a grenade (which Laurel says she has been using but we only saw her use once) and the Dinah in the comics was metahuman so it's fine that she could scream without affecting herself. Putting it around her neck and quadrupling the power is just asking for trouble.

[calliope1975]

Putting it around her neck and quadrupling the power is just asking for trouble.

 

I'm imagining a Scanners type head explosion scene. At the least, it should blow her throat open.

[statsgirl]

Laurel being able to "do some serious damage with this thing" without thinking it through how to avoid innocent bystanders being hurt, and threatening Cisco (which seemed to turn him on more than anything else)  seems to be par for the course for Laurel being so badass.  If we keep complaining that she's not good enough, I'm sure the EPs will throw in some more things.

 

So I guess Quentin will end up forgiving Laurel but not Oliver?

If I'm right about Flash 119 supposed to follow Arrow 320, I guess we'll find out next week.

 

I'm dreading Quentin apologizing to Laurel for being angry with her with his last breath and then dying.

[nksarmi]

I'm still trying to work out how Laurel is supposed to use this thing without rupturing her OWN eardrums. Sara had a device which focused them away she held in her hand or threw like a grenade (which Laurel says she has been using but we only saw her use once) and the Dinah in the comics was metahuman so it's fine that she could scream without affecting herself. Putting it around her neck and quadrupling the power is just asking for trouble.

I was so hoping he was going to give her matching earrings or something to protect her ears!!!

[Delphi]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/iceman-comes-out-of-the-closet

Just thought I'd put this here in case anyone hasn't heard about it. Just another example of Marvel is progressing a lot quicker than D.C.

[Morrigan2575]

No! Fucking bullshit...finally got Bobby and Angelica in the same Fucking comic. Angelica was even going gaga over Bobby's bod and now out of the blue he's gay? So pissed off.

[FurryFury]

It has been brought up on The Flash forum already. Apparently, it's a clusterfuck. The poster there who reads comics (I don't, I only remember Iceman from the X-men movies) says he's somehow gay in the past but straight in the present. WTF?

Edited April 22, 2015 by FurryFury

[Morrigan2575]

It has been brought up on The Flash forum already. Apparently, it's a clusterfuck. The poster there who reads comics (I don't, I only remember Iceman from the X-men movies) says he's somehow gay in the past but straight in the present. WTF?

one of the comments on the linked article is that teen bobby (from All New X-Men) is from an AU not the 616 Universe. So teen Bobby brought into the present is teen!AU Bobby not adult 616 Bobby. I don't know I don't read ANXM (hate Jean Grey) but in Amazing X-Men, Bobby was dating Kitty Pryde, he's also dated Lorna (Polaris), Anne and the chick that became a man because she fell in love with Moon Dragon.

Which, if true pisses me off because it's kind of chicken shit, they want to play at being LGBT friendly/accepting but don't have the balls to go all in.

My original objection was losing out on FireStar/Ice Man pairing...that's straight up Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends payoff! Hell we even got a reunion in early Amazing X-Men issues with Bobby, Angelica and Peter on an adventure.

[FurryFury]

the chick that became a man because she fell in love with Moon Dragon.

 

It really feels like this should be the last sentence. Oh, comics.

 

Which, if true pisses me off because it's kind of chicken shit, they want to play at being LGBT friendly/accepting but don't have the balls to go all in.

 

Well, I've already said in The Flash thread that I think that if you want to be diverse, just create a new character that's gay/PoC/whatever from the start. Changing an established character's sexuality is just as stupid as making them change their race. Sexuality is not a dress you can just discard and choose a new one.

[Morrigan2575]

It really feels like this should be the last sentence. Oh, comics.

Well, I've already said in The Flash thread that I think that if you want to be diverse, just create a new character that's gay/PoC/whatever from the start. Changing an established character's sexuality is just as stupid as making them change their race. Sexuality is not a dress you can just discard and choose a new one.

I agree, if they want LGBT characters or more diversity add it. There's nothing stopping them from creating new characters. They're introducing new Inhumans right now so make them diverse. We've got new Mutants rising post Avengers vs X-Men story, why not make some of them LGBT (they actually made fairly racially diverse).

[Delphi]

It really feels like this should be the last sentence. Oh, comics.

Well, I've already said in The Flash thread that I think that if you want to be diverse, just create a new character that's gay/PoC/whatever from the start. Changing an established character's sexuality is just as stupid as making them change their race. Sexuality is not a dress you can just discard and choose a new one.

I agree in regards to the last sentence, but I'm not sure I agree with the argument as a whole. Not specifically in the case of Bobby Drake so much as other characters in various other mediums. For the sake of argument I'll use the DC Comics pre52 universe. I'll start with Katherine Kane who when introduced was...well. nothing. It wasn't until they had long discarded of her character that they reintroduced her as both a Jewish and lesbian woman. Which, as far as I'm concerned, very good for both communities. Serves better as paramour of Batman. Is stronger, more rounded character for it.

I'll also use Renee Montoya as an example, probably a better one, considering when she was introduced she wasn't conceived as a lesbian, rather as a widow, however during her growth as a character she was eventually outed by Two Face, embraced her new identity and without any change in her character as a person. If anything she's more interesting than she was before. It's actually helped the character enter into a more mainstream part of the universe and is on the whole applauded for it.

If the writers of a series decided along the way that Tim Drake identified as gay and simply didn't know or was closeted or complete denial, as long as it was written well and true to the character I don't see anything wrong with it. In fact, I'd enjoy watching the characters evolution unfold.

[SleepDeprived]

When was Barry in Central City so that Laurel could have met him?  After the Arrow vs Flash battle when Caitlin and Cisco had left?

 

Laurel met Barry in Starling City during her 2.5-second appearance in "The Brave and The Bold" when Oliver and Barry went to the SCPD to ask Quentin about some criminal associated with Captain Boomerang. How she knows Barry is The Flash, I have no idea. Not like Barry would care, anyway, about people outing his alter-ego to anybody not named Iris.

[KirkB]

the chick that became a man because she fell in love with Moon Dragon.

 

 

 

Cloud. I actually remember this story line because I was big into the Defenders at the time. And while not great in the representation department it was even weirder than it sounds because Cloud wasn't really a person at all but a sentient nebula who had taken human form for some reason. Back in its real form it later briefly reunited with Moondragon and her girlfriend Phyla-Vell as they were traveling through space.

Edited April 22, 2015 by KirkB