Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[SmallScreenDiva]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

It seems like they had to bring in Earth-2 Laurel/Black Siren since they wanted to bring back Katie Cassidy, and Earth-1 Laurel had to stay dead because "we're killing off someone for real this time, we mean it!" But that's the only character from another universe, right? I don't think they'd do that again.

I truly doubt they wanted to bring Katie Cassidy back. I think they thought they were finally done with her after they killed her off. I still think the S5 appearances were part of the "severance package." But S6 regular status? That was something totally forced on them, I think (as to why? I think a lot of people BTS are still scratching their heads, too). I mean, Black Siren isn't even THAT popular. She didn't even trend on Twitter during her appearances, if I recall correctly. She may be slightly more entertaining as BS, but that's a pretty low bar since she was an absolute disaster as LL/BC.

Edited June 25, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva

[Morrigan2575]

If they actually include a wedding in the crossover (and I'm not convinced they will) I don't think it will complete/happen for real. It'll get broken up, erased, a flash forward or part of some AU. I don't think Berlanti or CW would ever allow WestAllen to get married in S4 when they're obviously expecting/hoping Flash will last as long as Smallville. 

IF there's a wedding it'll be used to put the breaks on WestAllen for a season or 2 just like Arrow did with Olicity.

[SmallScreenDiva]

8 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

How are their own words not proof? Then how can we believe anything that they say, just by picking and choosing?

Easy enough, don't. I just roll my eyes at whatever they say these days. And then I compare what they say to what actually happens on screen. Like, they keep saying you can't tell the GA story without BC, except for 5 seasons they were actually able to do it just fine. LL, SL — they were more relevant to Oliver as their regular personas than as BCs. Dinah? She doesn't really add anything to his GA story right now other than as a sidekick. 

[apinknightmare]

Personally, I don't think there's much of a point to keeping Iris and Barry apart or breaking up a wedding as a precursor to keeping them apart, even for the CW. There doesn't seem to be a lot of fervent interest there, and the show made it known from the beginning that Iris and Barry are endgame. 

Just seeems like a lot of wasted angst when the fanbase's biggest complaint about the last two seasons was the angst. They could plan a wedding for whatever reason and have it not happen for dramatic plot purposes and still stay together. Like Meredith and Derek on Grey's who offered their wedding to Izzy and Alex and then went and wrote their vows on Post-Its. They didn't actually get married for another two years and even then it happened offscreen. 

Unless Candice Patton just got tired of her character being nothing but a cheerleader for a shitty, stupid person and left the show, IDK...I'd be surprised if anything broke them up at this point. 

[Guest]

I honestly don't care who gets married first tbh. As long as Olicity do get married at some point, I'm good. I also don't want a crossover wedding so WA are welcome to get married then. Seriously. 

[tangerine95]

After the last 2 crossovers,a wedding then sounds like a bad idea imo.I mean there's like 15 characters from 4 shows they have to give screentime to,then there's the villain plot to fit.So unless it's a wedding stretched out over every show which I doubt would happen,I don't see how whatever couple would get much time and I would love for olicity to get an episode focused on them when they get married,at least as much as 4.09 was when they got engaged.And I really don't trust these writers to do that during a crossover considering they couldn't even focus the 100th episode on main characters and crossover guest stars got more screentime and story than some of the main cast.

[Morrigan2575]

21 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Personally, I don't think there's much of a point to keeping Iris and Barry apart or breaking up a wedding as a precursor to keeping them apart, even for the CW. There doesn't seem to be a lot of fervent interest there, and the show made it known from the beginning that Iris and Barry are endgame. 

 

I think it's just standard writing 101 and Berlanti's crew absolutely falls for that we have to do it because that's what you do mentality. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

All I'm hoping for at this point is for them not to introduce a downer of a story line for Arrow. Arrow S4 started sucking for me beginning 408. It just tainted all the episodes after that because we kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. And made me sideeye everything Oliver said and did with Felicity.

[statsgirl]

Since they set up the WestAllen wedding with the 'keep the date' cards (do people do that in real life?), I can see it as being the set-up for people getting together for the cross-over, and maybe being a note in it.  But it won't be the point of the crossover though

But I want Olicity established as a couple that if firmly and happily together before that. Because we've earned it, dammit.

9 hours ago, wonderwall said:

The Flash is the Flash and Arrow is Arrow - which is why it annoys me to no end when Arrow has to accommodate for Flash and deal with metas and crap like E2 characters and having to deal with Flashpoint. Alas - it's Arrow that always has to bare the brunt of the whole shared universe thing whereas Flash gets off unscathed. I guess that's the perk of being the golden child?

And honestly? Even with the romantic drama crap, I'm glad the Flash and Arrow writers/producers are different.If Arrow writers were Flash writers then Felicity would have little storyline and agency and would only be there to be Oliver's cheerleader. Felicity's development over the years has been great. You can totally tell she's a more developed, evolved character than she was when we first met her in season 1. You can say the same about Thea as w ell... Can't really say the same for the Flash ladies. :/ 

I'd much rather have better writing for the female characters than my ship getting married first, but that's just my opinion.

This is pretty much me.  There was no reason for Sara Diggle to be erased other than the fact that Flash had Flashpoint and Arrow had to come up with something to show that they are a shared universe and came up with what they thought was the least thing to affect their storyline. You can tell that they didn't want to do it because if they had, it would have been something significant, like Moira still alive but in prison, or Laurel married to and then divorced from Tommy, but instead they chose something that wouldn't affect Arrow's storyline since they had been forced to accommodate Flash's

If you bring it down to basics -- would I rather have ridiculous annoying stalls to their relationship but Felicity written like the kickass character she is, or would I rather Oliver and Felicity get married sooner but Felicity is only a prop for Oliver rather than a real character -- I'll pick the former every time.  So I guess I should accept the lesser of two evils.

9 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

It's a bit different from how the writers interpret things to how they come across on screen. Their reality does not match our own. But they weren't forced to bring in Black Siren into 5x10, they wanted to in order to tell that story, just so happens that The Flash already gave them the ammo they needed the year before.

I agree that the Black Siren was a good way to explore "Oliver is desperate for a miracle".  But if Flash hadn't created her, the Arrow writers would have found another way to tell the story.

I strongly feel that having to use Flash's universe hurts Arrow more than it helps it.

Edited June 25, 2017 by statsgirl

[Trini]

14 hours ago, quarks said:

 

I kinda have to disagree with this.

First, none of the longest running shows currently on the air in the U.S. are procedurals - they are all news shows (Meet the Press, CBS Evening News), late night talk shows (The Tonight Show) or religious programming.  The runners up are General Hospital and Days of Our Lives, followed by various sports shows.

Even sticking to scripted prime time U.S. television (aka, not news, soaps, sports and educational shows) I'm not sure this is true. Within that category, we currently have:

The Simpsons (28 seasons), not a procedural

Law and Order: Special Victims Unit (18 seasons) procedural

Family Guy (18 years, 15 seasons), not a procedural

NCIS (14 seasons), procedural

Grey's Anatomy (13 seasons), not a procedural

Supernatural (12 seasons), not a procedural

Technically still on air, but now on cable:

American Dad (14 seasons; began on Fox, now on cable)

Even if I just restrict this to the top four and leave out American Dad, the procedurals are still just half of the shows. If I bring in the just ended Bones (12 seasons) I have to add Grey's Anatomy and Supernatural - making it four non-procedurals to three procedurals. And that's it - all other scripted primetime shows have been on for fewer than ten years.

Of those six (seven if we count American Dad), one is a dark fantasy and two more (The Simpsons and Family Guy), while primarily comedies, have played with genre tropes.  So, half of the longest running scripted primetime shows right now are either genre or play with the concept.

Looking back, at least four genre shows have lasted at least ten seasons - Supernatural, Smallville (10 seasons), X-Files (technically 10 seasons, even if most of us - well, ok, me - would prefer to believe that it only had seven seasons), and on cable, Stargate SG-1 (10 seasons).  In the "more difficult to categorize by straight seasons but wow these franchises never seem to die" category we have Doctor Who, Star Trek, and Red Dwarf, and a few shows with relatively decent seven or eight season runs - Charmed, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and The Vampire Diaries.  Pretty impressive given that even now in the post Game of Thrones era, genre shows are still in the minority.

And if the CW does cancel Flash, WB could always follow the example of Fox and American Dad and just sell it to another network - sister networks TBS or TNT, or the upcoming DC streaming service.  So, again, at this point, nobody knows, but a ten year run for Flash is not unthinkable.

 

I did clarify that I was talking about the categories that applied to The Flash - hour-long dramas. And I did say that it is possible that it could last 10 seasons; I just think it's unlikely because TV watching is different from even a decade ago with more outlets and services and lower ratings overall.

As for the longest running, primetime, network dramas currently on the air, there's:

L&O: SVU - 18 seasons
NCIS - 14
Grey's Anatomy - 13
Supernatural - 12
Criminal Minds - 12
NCIS: L.A. - 8
Hawaii 5-0 - 7
Blue Bloods - 7

So 5 out of those 8 are procedurals, and only 1 genre show. And if we include the recently cancelled Bones and Vampire Diaries, it's 6 out 10, and only 2 genre shows. And even if you only count the shows that have lasted at least 10 seasons (including Bones) it's 4 procedurals out of 6, and only 1 genre show.

So, yes, when it comes to categories that apply to The Flash, it's more likely for a procedural to last long and less likely for a genre show. Especially looking at recent history.

----------

Then there's also the possibility of them doing a spinoff to extend the show.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Trini

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

If they actually include a wedding in the crossover (and I'm not convinced they will) I don't think it will complete/happen for real. It'll get broken up, erased, a flash forward or part of some AU. I don't think Berlanti or CW would ever allow WestAllen to get married in S4 when they're obviously expecting/hoping Flash will last as long as Smallville. 

IF there's a wedding it'll be used to put the breaks on WestAllen for a season or 2 just like Arrow did with Olicity.

Does anyone know when Clark and Lana* officially get together on Smallville?
 

*(who were never going to be "endgame" because Clark would have to move on to Lois eventually)

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, Trini said:

Does anyone know when Clark and Lana* officially get together on Smallville?
 

*(who were never going to be "endgame" because Clark would have to move on to Lois eventually)

I think season 5..

[Starfish35]

15 minutes ago, Trini said:

Does anyone know when Clark and Lana* officially get together on Smallville?
 

*(who were never going to be "endgame" because Clark would have to move on to Lois eventually)

I think it was season 7.   Before that it was a lot of back and forth (and Lana married Lex in season six).

[Trini]

8 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I truly doubt they wanted to bring Katie Cassidy back. I think they thought they were finally done with her after they killed her off. I still think the S5 appearances were part of the "severance package." But S6 regular status? That was something totally forced on them, I think (as to why? I think a lot of people BTS are still scratching their heads, too)....

They already had her replacement, and yet they clearly still wanted to work with her again. I mean, we've never heard or seen the Hawks again since LoT season 1, but yet Wentworth Miller has made multiple guest appearances despite clearly not wanting to commit to the show. If they really didn't want her back she wouldn't be; especially not as a regular.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Trini

[SmallScreenDiva]

10 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

It's a bit different from how the writers interpret things to how they come across on screen. Their reality does not match our own. But they weren't forced to bring in Black Siren into 5x10, they wanted to in order to tell that story, just so happens that The Flash already gave them the ammo they needed the year before.

Responding to this in Villains thread ...

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Another reason fans expect WestAllen to get married is because of the inevitable appearance of Bart Allen on the show eventually. Whether as their grandson like he is in the comics, or more likely, their son in this version. I suspect that's got to be coming soon.

With time travel, Bart could pop in anytime.  They don't actually have to already be married in show.  Also, as long as Wally is on, I have a hard time thinking they'd rush to bring on Bart.  

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I think it's just standard writing 101 and Berlanti's crew absolutely falls for that we have to do it because that's what you do mentality. 

I do think WA will get stalls and separations (Which I think Barry stuck in the speedforce sort of count as but not really since it's all offscreen) but frankly, I don't think the show is interested enough in Iris to do a real break up (meaning lasting months) because then they'd have to show her off doing her own thing and yeah, that just doesn't happen.  I think it's more likely they'd brain whammy her, maybe make her some other character and only then follow that storyline, rather than a real one for Iris. (Poor Iris).  Or they just leave her as Barry's emotional support center and make Barry pull away for "reasons" while she waits patiently again.    So maybe just stalls rather than break ups.  

[ruby24]

16 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I do think WA will get stalls and separations (Which I think Barry stuck in the speedforce sort of count as but not really since it's all offscreen) but frankly, I don't think the show is interested enough in Iris to do a real break up (meaning lasting months) because then they'd have to show her off doing her own thing and yeah, that just doesn't happen.  I think it's more likely they'd brain whammy her, maybe make her some other character and only then follow that storyline, rather than a real one for Iris. (Poor Iris).  Or they just leave her as Barry's emotional support center and make Barry pull away for "reasons" while she waits patiently again.    So maybe just stalls rather than break ups.  

This is far more likely to me as well, in terms of any kind of separation. This could even happen after they're married- Iris goes missing and is replaced for a while by one of her doppelgängers or something, and there's this weird, new dynamic between Other Iris and Barry while he's trying to get her back. I could see them doing something like that.

The problem with a break-up lasting a long time is the angst factor, which is really bad for this show. They don't even like to have family fights last longer than an episode or two, haven't you noticed? The show is better off lighter and funnier.

[wonderwall]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

So 5 out of those 8 are procedurals, and only 1 genre show. And if we include the recently cancelled Bones and Vampire Diaries, it's 6 out 10, and only 2 genre shows. And even if you only count the shows that have lasted at least 10 seasons (including Bones) it's 4 procedurals out of 6, and only 1 genre show.

So, yes, when it comes to categories that apply to The Flash, it's more likely for a procedural to last long and less likely for a genre show. Especially looking at recent history.

----------

Then there's also the possibility of them doing a spinoff to extend the show.

You forget to take into account that this is the CW. Flash is still in the 0.9-1.1 range and its streaming/netflix/merch numbers are allegedly fantastic. It'll be a LONG while till they hit the 0.4-0.5 range (which a lot of shows on the CW still get renewed for such as iZombie, The Originals etc.)

So yeah, it's incredibly likely - even with a slow decline - that Flash will have healthy enough numbers to go to 10 seasons. The only thing that will likely stop that will be Grant wanting to leave which I doubt he will. 

[ruby24]

9 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

You forget to take into account that this is the CW. Flash is still in the 0.9-1.1 range and its streaming/netflix/merch numbers are allegedly fantastic. It'll be a LONG while till they hit the 0.4-0.5 range (which a lot of shows on the CW still get renewed for such as iZombie, The Originals etc.)

So yeah, it's incredibly likely - even with a slow decline - that Flash will have healthy enough numbers to go to 10 seasons. The only thing that will likely stop that will be Grant wanting to leave which I doubt he will. 

He might though. His sm postings have increasingly hinted at how much he HATES the filming schedule.

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

He might though. His sm postings have increasingly hinted at how much he HATES the filming schedule.

LOL really? That's so bratty and not a good look at all. I get complaining about the hours once in a while but hinting to how much you hate it? OK Grant! Next time don't audition for the lead role! I'm sure there are other actors who would be grateful for the opportunity...

[LeighAn]

He should try being Stephen who essentially filmed and starred in two shows for five years. In fact I'd be curious what Grants screen time is like vs Stephens.

[TwistedandBored]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

He might though. His sm postings have increasingly hinted at how much he HATES the filming schedule.

Maybe he is aiming for a better filming schedule. So, if network and creators see that he is unhappy, they can accommodate him by increasing the others actors hours. They could also do what Arrow did by increasing their character ratio with a lot of newbies.  Out of all the comic shows on CW, I think Flash would be the only one to last up to 10 seasons. So, he better buckle up. 

[lemotomato]

DR has mentioned on several occasions how much longer shooting days are for Arrow compared to Flash. 

And honestly, I can see Flash continuing even without Grant, because even in the comics there have been different people who have been The Flash. If he wanted to leave, they could promote Wally or introduce Bart to take his place. I don't think GG carries the show the way SA does. 

[Guest]

Maybe they could try giving some of GG's screentime to CP seeing as she deserves more than love interest/pep talk giver.

[TwistedandBored]

10 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Maybe they could try giving some of GG's screentime to CP seeing as she deserves more than love interest/pep talk giver.

I am all for CP getting more screen time. She deserves it. 

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

DR has mentioned on several occasions how much longer shooting days are for Arrow compared to Flash. 

And honestly, I can see Flash continuing even without Grant, because even in the comics there have been different people who have been The Flash. If he wanted to leave, they could promote Wally or introduce Bart to take his place. I don't think GG carries the show the way SA does. 

I imagine all the CGI would cut down a lot of The Flash Supergirl and Legends cast film time so it wouldn't surprise me if they had a better deal then the Arrow cast. 

 

I can can see the set up for The Flash to carry on with out Barry Allen , whether it would remain successful is another question. Although Vampire Diaries lasted a lot longer then I thought it would with out Nina. But I agree they have built Arrow so much around and reliant on Oliver and Stephen that there's just no way I could see the show carrying on without him. Diggle is probably the closets to being ready made to take his place but it would be a very different show. 

[tarotx]

7 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

DR has mentioned on several occasions how much longer shooting days are for Arrow compared to Flash. 

And honestly, I can see Flash continuing even without Grant, because even in the comics there have been different people who have been The Flash. If he wanted to leave, they could promote Wally or introduce Bart to take his place. I don't think GG carries the show the way SA does. 

1

GG's charisma is the only reason I still watch at all. Even if it is just kinda of watch. I think all the shows technically can lose anyone but that doesn't mean the lead actors aren't carrying the show or that the characters the fans enjoy aren't what keeps the ratings as stable as they can be in this market and being on the CW. Imo. 

11 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Maybe they could try giving some of GG's screentime to CP seeing as she deserves more than love interest/pep talk giver.

I hope they go this route. CP is awesome and Iris has a ton of potential if they used her. At all. 

[statsgirl]

GG is charismatic but the storylines have got awfully repetitive.  If he does decide to leave, I can see replacing Barry with Wally as the Flash could be a possible creative boost and revitalizing the show for a few more seasons.

[Mellowyellow]

I don't know that Wally can replace GG's Flash. Wally is so dull and doesn't have the perky GG charm.

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

LOL really? That's so bratty and not a good look at all. I get complaining about the hours once in a while but hinting to how much you hate it? OK Grant! Next time don't audition for the lead role! I'm sure there are other actors who would be grateful for the opportunity...

Hinting at it doesn't seem bratty, outright complaining about it would be. And how much time is he spending "hinting" at it?

[wonderwall]

18 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Hinting at it doesn't seem bratty, outright complaining about it would be. And how much time is he spending "hinting" at it?

Hinting at how much he hates it is bratty IMO and comes off as a bit ungrateful. To me mentions of how his work schedule doesn't allow for much of a private life but it's part of the job etc. is a better response.

If he hates the hours - something he should've known what he was getting into - then he shouldn't have auditioned for the lead role at all. It's the job. You don't talk about how you hate the hours to the public. Heck I work 90 hours a week and I rarely say a word about it. It's just part of the job. 

But this is just my opinion. TBH I don't see anyone in the arrow cast or SG cast complaining or hinting at how they hate the hours. They just treat it as a part of the job

[Guest]

1 hour ago, tarotx said:

I hope they go this route. CP is awesome and Iris has a ton of potential if they used her. At all. 

I agree. I haven't really watched Flash since s1/couple of episodes of s2 but I've always thought she deserved more than what she got. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Guest

[ruby24]

45 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Hinting at it doesn't seem bratty, outright complaining about it would be. And how much time is he spending "hinting" at it?

Well, I just definitely noticed stuff like his posting several "countdown to hiatus" posts when they still had like over 4 months of filming left. Lol. And comments on other people's posts referencing how he couldn't stand it, etc. It's not like it's blaring headlines, but believe me, it's there and it's consistent. And when they weren't even anywhere near done yet, so it made me raise my eyebrows, and his attitude does seem very different compared to Stephen Amell and Melissa Benoist, who I'm sure have similar hours.

But it's not like he's the only person who couldn't handle this kind of network, 22 episode season schedule. I saw a fairly recent interview with Leighton Meester where she was talking about how it was filming Gossip Girl and how she could never do another network show due to the hellish filming hours, because you basically don't see sunlight. She said she'd never go through that experience again. 

Everyone handles things differently- for some people maybe working 12 hour days, five days a week really is too much for them. (Personally, I think the money they make ought to more than make up for it- even on the CW, a salary like that means you're set for life. You don't have to do anything else once the show's over, if you don't want to).

Edited June 26, 2017 by ruby24

[SmallScreenDiva]

Flash may be set up with successors but I'm not sure anyone among the speedsters right now can carry the show. Flash's success has a lot to do with Grant's appeal to viewers. Same with Arrow, I don't think you can replace Stephen either. If he decides to leave at the end of S7, the show should just end with him. 

[ruby24]

23 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I don't think  you ever really know a person until you've lived with them and had to make serious accommodations for the other person..  I had a good friend from college who was a good friend for 4 years until the summer after college when we lived together.  I don't think our relationship ever really recovered from that.

I agree with this. I also think it's a really bad idea to get married if you live in different states and haven't lived together yet. (I know someone who's doing this in real life and I just totally think it's doomed).

[Delphi]

My sister and my best friend moved in together this time last year.   They are also bffs... or were.   Living together changes things.

 

I also think they siblings cohabiting is different from mates.   I don't mind if my sister stays the night and fucks up my face wash but there is a very good reason that my boyfriend and I have our own toothpaste. 

[BkWurm1]

25 minutes ago, Delphi said:

but there is a very good reason that my boyfriend and I have our own toothpaste. 

A squeeze from the middle or end of tube issue?  

[Delphi]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

A squeeze from the middle or end of tube issue?  

Heh,  he's a middle guy.   Which is wrong,  by the way.   He's also drunk and trying to paw at me with headphones on super loud. Opposites attract I guess. 

[BkWurm1]

11 minutes ago, Delphi said:

Heh,  he's a middle guy.   Which is wrong,  by the way.   

Fightin' words!!  ;)  lol

I have trouble seeing why the middle is wrong.  It works fine for more than half the life of the tube.  I only worry about starting to roll from the end once the middle method no longer works. 

To make this more on topic, I wonder how Oliver, Felicity and Barry treat their toothpaste tubes.  

I can't decide if Oliver would be super methodical and roll from the end right away or realize it's not something he's going to waste time worrying over.  I think Felicity might be a from the end of the tube girl or at least when she is busy.  Saturday mornings she probably is more laid back.   Barry absolutely squeezes from the middle.  

Edited June 26, 2017 by BkWurm1

[quarks]

10 hours ago, Trini said:

I did clarify that I was talking about the categories that applied to The Flash - hour-long dramas. And I did say that it is possible that it could last 10 seasons; I just think it's unlikely because the TV watching is different from even a decade ago with more outlets and services and lower ratings overall.

As for the longest running, primetime, network dramas currently on the air, there's:

L&O: SVU - 18 seasons
NCIS - 14
Grey's Anatomy - 13
Supernatural - 12
Criminal Minds - 12
NCIS: L.A. - 8
Hawaii 5-0 - 7
Blue Bloods - 7

So 5 out of those 8 are procedurals, and only 1 genre show. And if we include the recently cancelled Bones and Vampire Diaries, it's 6 out 10, and only 2 genre shows. And even if you only count the shows that have lasted at least 10 seasons (including Bones) it's 4 procedurals out of 6, and only 1 genre show.

So, yes, when it comes to categories that apply to The Flash, it's more likely for a procedural to last long and less likely for a genre show. Especially looking at recent history.

----------

Then there's also the possibility of them doing a spinoff to extend the show.

You're right to point out that I forgot Criminal Minds. Mea culpa. But otherwise, you're changing the goalposts here, not just from your original "long running shows" to "hour long dramas" but from the original ten years to your new goalpost, seven years.

Look. I get why, because unless you make it seven years, and stick only to hour long scripted shows that are either still on or ended within the last year, the argument doesn't work.  But I do hope you can understand that it's pretty annoying to go from "long running shows" to "hour long dramas" and from "ten years" to "seven years." This is not a fair comparison - especially when you then restrict your shows to those either still on or ended within the past year. Because overall (not just looking at shows still on the air or just cancelled this season) non-procedural hour-long dramas lasting ten or more years slightly outnumber procedural dramas lasting ten or more years (more than slightly if you count Murder: She Wrote and NYPD: Blue as non-procedurals, slightly if you do count them as procedurals); if we expand that to seven or more years, non-procedural hour long dramas strongly outnumber procedural dramas.  (Sitcoms outnumber both.) 

In addition, to make your argument that procedurals are more likely to last longer than other hour long dramas, you have to ignore that networks frequently cancel procedurals as well. Two of the Criminal Minds and two of the Law and Order spinoffs only lasted one season. And ignore that although the networks certainly cancelled a number of genre shows this season, they also cancelled several procedurals and crime dramas (Criminal Minds: Beyond Borders, American Crime, Conviction, Ransom, Training Day, 24: Legacy, Aquarius) and renewed several genre shows, including a few questionable for renewal (Timeless, Agents of SHIELD, Once Upon a Time, Gotham, Lucifer, multiple CW shows.)

The numbers are funky for a completely different reason, though - even now, in the post Game of Thrones age, the major networks tend to shy away from genre shows - so outside of the CW and Syfy (the networks that have, not incidentally, hosted the longest lasting genre shows) there's been fewer genre shows with a chance to succeed in the first place. I checked, and the networks released plenty of other hour long dramas along with Law and Order: SVU in 1999 - Judging Amy, Ally, Freaks and Geeks, Once and Again, Popular, Providence, Snoops, and several more. Of those, only four - a definite minority - were genre: Harsh Realm, Angel, Roswell and Now and Again. Interesting twist: Angel and Roswell were both on the WB (which later turned into the CW) and lasted more than one season, although WB cancelled non-genre Popular within one season. Harsh Realm was cancelled by Fox after one season; Now and Again was cancelled by CBS after just one season. Incidentally, CBS also cancelled another 1999 show after just one season - the procedural Turk, and Sons of Thunder, a non-genre spinoff of Walker: Texas Ranger that barely made it through six episodes. 

To bring this back to Flash, arguing that procedurals have a better chance of lasting than hour long scripted dramas means ignoring that Flash is on the CW, which hasn't had a procedural (unless we count iZombie, and let's not) since Veronica Mars, which only lasted three seasons and was only arguably a procedural to begin with.  In general, the exact opposite has happened on the CW: genre shows have thrived; more realistic dramas (7th Heaven and Gilmore Girls, both of which started on the WB, excepted) have tended to fail.  This has been particularly true in recent years: yes, the CW has had some recent genre flops, no question, but all of their recent successes were genre shows. Their top six shows last season were genre shows. Their longest running series - Supernatural, Smallville, 7th Heaven, Charmed and The Vampire Diaries - have mostly been genre shows.  

That genre success is the only reason we are even having this conversation at all. It's pretty publicly known that the CW was in a panic in 2011 when Smallville was ending - their only other successes were Supernatural and The Vampire Diaries. It's not at all surprising, therefore, that they chose to replace Smallville with Arrow, another genre show, and cast it with Stephen Amell, who had appeared on TVD, Katie Cassidy, who had appeared on Supernatural and the closest thing the CW had to a non-genre success at that point, Gossip Girl, and Susanna Thompson and Paul Blackthorne, both known for genre work. When Arrow was a ratings/viewing success in its first season and a critical success in its second season, the CW went all in for genre until this season.

If I seem to be obsessing over this, well, I am, for two different reasons. One, as said, I found the shifting goalposts annoying. But more importantly, I'm getting increasingly aggravated with the "realism/procedurals/etc will last, genre won't" argument when I see it. It's not true. It's not even entirely true for Fox, which does have a habit of cutting off its genre shows quickly (sniffle, Firefly). But worse, it feeds into an argument that I am beyond tired of, which is that genre can't succeed and/or isn't popular and will never do as well as reality-based television/film/books.

AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH.

Look.

Ok, yes, as I type, it looks like the most recent Transformers film has bombed. (I'm not sorry about this.) Otherwise, four of the top five grossing films of the year so far are genre films: Beauty and the Beast, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2, Pirates of the Caribbean Will This Franchise Never End Please Someone Save Us, and Wonder Woman. Of the next five films, three are genre: Logan, Kong: Skull Island and Your Name.  The longest lasting television franchise is a genre franchise, Doctor Who. The most financially successful television franchise of all time is not a procedural, it's Star Trek. The longest lasting kid's television show features talking puppets and had Grover playing a superhero, Super Grover. The highest grossing film series are all genre - the MCU, Harry Potter and Star Wars. (Yes, James Bond is fourth, but still.)  The most critically acclaimed/awarded television show of the last few years is Game of Thrones. Even adjusted for inflation, four of the top ten grossing films of all time are all genre (Avatar, Star Wars, E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.) Stephen King, J.K. Rowling and Stephenie Meyer are all best selling authors. Our previous president waved a light saber around. To quote John Scalzi, yes, geeks, WE HAVE ARRIVED. 

And yet, I can still come into a forum about a GENRE COMICS SHOW, one which admittedly has gone down in viewers/ratings/critical regard, but one which helped launch an entire new subgenre of new comics shows (the spinoffs, plus Agents of SHIELD and Gotham, which would not have been greenlit without Arrow), and which popped into a number of critical top ten lists in its second season, and be told by a fan of the show that oh, no, a genre show is unlikely to go ten seasons because genre shows just aren't as successful as procedurals. On the same network whose longest lasting show ever is Supernatural, followed by Smallville.

So not to pick on you exactly, but it's frustrating. 

[And after that, I think I'll spare all of you my thoughts on toothpaste squeezing.]

I do, however, feel obliged to add that sure, Flash could end in the next few seasons - its numbers just dropped last season and a number of you added some pretty compelling arguments/evidence about Grant Gustin not being happy on the show. But there's plenty of evidence in the show's script - mostly all of the time spent focused on 2024 - to strongly suggest that the showrunners think there's a strong chance of this show continuing for ten years, even if Gustin takes off. Which was the point that we were originally discussing before everything got sidetracked into the "What's really the longest running show ever" - that is, have the showrunners been thinking long term? The script says, sure. Will that long term thinking impact the potential timing of the potential WestAllen wedding? Well, we'll have to watch season four to find out. 

[tv echo]

I can see Grant Gustin eyeing a movie career. He's already landed a key role in The Last Full Measure (starring Sebastian Stan, Samuel L. Jackson, Ed Harris, Christopher Plummer, and a lot of other big name stars), which will give him more exposure to a lot of people who don't watch CW shows. Grant has that kind of everyman appeal that would make him easy to cast in a lot of movies, provided he shows some big screen presence. Being tied to a tv show's shooting schedule would limit his ability to take on other projects.

As for giving more screen time to Iris and making her role less dependent on Barry, the show is called The Flash, and not Barry & Iris or Iris & Friends, don't ya know? ;) Just kidding, of course. I'm all for giving Iris more screen time.

Edited June 26, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

This is an interesting poll (I picked Iron Man's suit and Thor's hammer, which apparently were the most popular choices)...

USD POLL : In the Marvel Universe which weapon would you want in a fight?
Posted by Raina at June 26, 2017
http://www.spoilertv.com/2017/06/usd-poll-in-marvel-universe-which.html

[tv echo]

‘Marvel’s Inhumans’ Gets Premiere Date On ABC
by Denise Petski  June 26, 2017 
http://deadline.com/2017/06/marvels-inhumans-premiere-date-on-abc-1202119830/

Quote

We knew it was coming this fall and now ABC has set Friday, September 29 for the premiere of Marvel’s Inhumans, its anticipated series based on the comic books.

The first two episodes will air back-to-back September 29 from 8-10 PM on ABC. The linear premiere follows a two-week run in Imax theatres beginning September 1.

Edited June 26, 2017 by tv echo

[kismet]

I think the appeal of the crossover wedding now is just not that exciting for me. I was intrigued by the idea of Arrow's 100th and Xover being the same episode, and a wedding being a good idea to bring everyone together. Plus it felt fitting for O/F relationship to have a big moment on the 100th. But then s4b happened and TPTB refused to budge from their stupid ideology, so the prospect of a wedding vanished along with a lot of my good will to Arrow.

I do like the idea of the xover being a happy occasion and not just being some tragic multiverse villain actionfest. Does it need to be a wedding? I don't think so. In fact, I can see how people would get upset having their show be taken over by another show's life-changing event. Someone earlier suggested that the wedding could be what brings the crew together, but it gets disrupted and then the actual wedding is on the actual show's regular season, not in the crossover. That could work. But honestly, I have seen how Flarrowverse handles weddings & weddings for plot. And frankly I'm not sure I look forward to any of them. I want O/F & I/B married. I don't care who gets it first, but I'm not sure I care about their weddings anymore. Ill fitting gowns. Cliched tropes. Ridiculous make a new character happen moments. And never enough time actual devoted to the couple or why fans love them. It's just not on my wishlist anymore.

On a related note - @statsgirlyes Save the Dates are big in USA. A lot of people send out magnets or fridge reminders. It's more important to get those out than the actual invitations sometimes. The are basically the invite. The formal invites are just a head count mechanism.

I really crave a for HAPPY REASONS crossover. I actual think the best crossovers are the smaller ones that add one show's characters to another to help the other team. I liked the first one because it was about teams helping teams. The two other BIG Event Xover were actually kind of busts for me. I get that it appeals to the comics crowd, but I really thought the intro to the Hawks and Aliens were distracting and ill-fitting. Personally, I think if they are doing big event Xover unconnected to the individual main plots of the show, they should retime it and make it separate. Put it right before the Winter Break, or have it bring back one of the many breaks. Make it a sustained cliffhanger. It's timing is destructive right now, if the shows continue to do the big bad plot arcs. It breaks all the fall momentum.

[LeighAn]

Since they aren't scared of avenger comparisons I wouldn't be opposed to them doing the whole Flarrow crew get together for a mission that requires all of them, think they've saved the day but then realise there's a greater threat that needs all of them. 

[Primal Slayer]

I've been waiting for them to do that. Start it up at one years crossover and have it finish at the following year with little sprinkles here and there.

[statsgirl]

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

To make this more on topic, I wonder how Oliver, Felicity and Barry treat their toothpaste tubes.  

I can't decide if Oliver would be super methodical and roll from the end right away or realize it's not something he's going to waste time worrying over.  I think Felicity might be a from the end of the tube girl or at least when she is busy.  Saturday mornings she probably is more laid back.   Barry absolutely squeezes from the middle. 

I wonder if Sara squeezes it very carefully and then folds the tube into the smallest possible package so she can hide evidence that she lives there.  Ray probably just uses it extravagantly.

13 hours ago, quarks said:

But there's plenty of evidence in the show's script - mostly all of the time spent focused on 2024 - to strongly suggest that the showrunners think there's a strong chance of this show continuing for ten years, even if Gustin takes off.

Kind of says it all about where their hopes are, just as Arrow was a five year island/hero's journey.

Quote

I really crave a for HAPPY REASONS crossover. I actual think the best crossovers are the smaller ones that add one show's characters to another to help the other team.

In terms of convincing me that the shows exist in the same universe, the small crossovers with a few member visiting another show.work better for me than all four shows getting together or the events on one show affecting another (cough, cough Flashpoint).

Thanks for the info on Save The Date.  I'd never heard of it before.

Edited June 26, 2017 by statsgirl

[Trini]

13 hours ago, quarks said:

You're right to point out that I forgot Criminal Minds. Mea culpa. But otherwise, you're changing the goalposts here, not just from your original "long running shows" to "hour long dramas" but from the original ten years to your new goalpost, seven years.

I didn't change any goalpost. Again, I always meant hour-long dramas. I don't think the show is comparable to a news show or sitcom; networks treat each slightly differently.

And I didn't set any number of years. I did choose to stick to shows that have lasted longer than Arrow (the oldest of the CW/DC shows) in my list; sorry if that confused you. But I did also make a point using the shows that had lasted at least 10 seasons.
 

13 hours ago, quarks said:

This is not a fair comparison - especially when you then restrict your shows to those either still on or ended within the past year.

Debatable; I restricted it to that because I think that recent TV history is a more accurate predictor than show and network behavior from a generation ago, because of the changing TV landscape.

 

14 hours ago, quarks said:

And yet, I can still come into a forum about a GENRE COMICS SHOW, one which admittedly has gone down in viewers/ratings/critical regard, but one which helped launch an entire new subgenre of new comics shows (the spinoffs, plus Agents of SHIELD and Gotham, which would not have been greenlit without Arrow), and which popped into a number of critical top ten lists in its second season, and be told by a fan of the show that oh, no, a genre show is unlikely to go ten seasons because genre shows just aren't as successful as procedurals. On the same network whose longest lasting show ever is Supernatural, followed by Smallville.

And I still stand by that. AGAIN, I don't think it's impossible, but less likely to last that long. I'll give you Smallville; I think Supernatural is a fluke.

I simply compared Flash to what are the current longest running, comparable shows. Thanks for the extra analysis.
 

14 hours ago, quarks said:

I do, however, feel obliged to add that sure, Flash could end in the next few seasons - its numbers just dropped last season and a number of you added some pretty compelling arguments/evidence about Grant Gustin not being happy on the show. But there's plenty of evidence in the show's script - mostly all of the time spent focused on 2024 - to strongly suggest that the showrunners think there's a strong chance of this show continuing for ten years, even if Gustin takes off. Which was the point that we were originally discussing before everything got sidetracked into the "What's really the longest running show ever" - that is, have the showrunners been thinking long term? The script says, sure. Will that long term thinking impact the potential timing of the potential WestAllen wedding? Well, we'll have to watch season four to find out. 

I agree that the showrunners could be thinking long-term. However, The Flash is a show with time travel; it doesn't need to run 10 years for it to show us 2024.

[lemotomato]

Danielle Panabaker got married this weekend. Grant Gustin, Carlos Valdes, Tom Cavanagh and Jesse L. Martin, as well as Katie Cassidy, Victor Garber, and Rose McIver. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by lemotomato

[Chaser]

Well thats one Arrowverse wedding down.

Lovely dress. I'm glad she didn't use Arrow's costume department.