Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[tv echo]

[way2interested]

29 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Here's my nonspoilery (no spoilers as to plot) review of the tie-in novel, Arrow: A Generation of Vipers, by Susan and Clay Griffith, which MG has said is part of show canon...

This novel is a sequel to The Flash: The Haunting of Barry Allen. From what I can tell, the events in these two books take place sometime between 408 and 415 of Arrow.

It's supposed to be relatively before s2/s4 from The Flash book. The first one had references to it being October and there's mentions about Zoom coming, but then again the timeline's all over the place (Diggle and Felicity already have their codenames but there's no wheelchair mention, no Jay/Darhk/mayoral race mention, Thea seems to be a teenager in the flashbacks even though Oliver "died" when she was about 12, etc.) (Also, it's probably just my rationale, but since I figured it was pre-s4, I just rationed that the son reference was just Oliver remembering seeing Samantha in Central City and thinking of a *what almost happened* scenario, even though I figured it actually is some kind of a real-time reference, but again, messed up timeline)

34 minutes ago, tv echo said:

This novel is what I wish the show would be. It has plenty of dark, gritty moments, lots of tension and fight scenes. It also has lighter, humorous moments. There's a mystery or two to unravel, as well as a new character from Oliver's pre-island past who turns up in the present. The characters act in character for the most part. But notably, this novel has heart. There's the mentor-mentee relationship between Oliver and Barry (think first Flash/Arrow crossover) that is further developed. We get more insights into their 'big brother-little brother' dynamic and how they help each other, both in crime-fighting and character development. Oliver & Felicity are depicted much better in the book than in the show this season, as a couple who love each other, support each other, and work beautifully with each other to unravel the puzzle and defeat the bad guys. At the same time, the book notes the significant differences between Oliver and Barry, as well as the differences between Oliver and Felicity. In addition, Lyla and ARGUS play a key role in this novel (there's even a Felicity and Lyla team-up!). We also see how ARGUS and Team Arrow don't always have the same goals (perhaps foreshadowing future conflict in the show?).

Same, although let me tell you, that "this dialogue would sound better out loud than on the page" nitpick that comes up a lot in Arrow did come up quite a few times in the book (made me wish that the cast could read some of these things out loud for scientific purposes, I swear). Really liked how Barry and Cisco were utilized as younger support and how Thea got in a few one-liners and nice moments (although I was actually really hoping for more of a Malcolm/Felicity showdown ngl, but it turned out fine since Lyla and Felicity won out in the end).

[tv echo]

I see your rationale for Oliver's son and why it might be earlier in S4. I also forgot about Felicity's paralysis from 409-415 (like the writers) and that she was in a wheelchair then.

But I think it still has to be after S4 begins, because Oliver & Felicity were traveling the world and then living in Ivy Town during the summer between S3 and S4. It wasn't until 401 that they even returned to Star City, and then Oliver and Diggle did not reconcile as friends until 403 (aired Oct. 21, 2015). But you're right, the timeline is a little off in places. So now I'm guessing the Arrow book took place between 403 and 408?

Edited April 7, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Legends of Tomorrow boss teases Rip's return in even crazier season 3
NATALIE ABRAMS APRIL 6, 2017
http://ew.com/tv/2017/04/06/legends-tomorrow-season-3-spoilers/

Quote

Whichever route the show goes next season, the consequences of the Legends’ actions will not reverberate throughout the full Arrow-verse. “There will be an explanation in season 3 about why you’re not seeing dinosaurs running through Central City,” Guggenheim says. “We’d rather keep the shows separate in that regard.”

Edited April 7, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Oh, this is funny...

[tv echo]

Here's how Diggle, Felicity and Oliver were introduced in Chapter 25 of The Flash: The Haunting of Barry Allen...

Quote

"Barry." John nodded. The ex-military man stood six-foot-five, broad-shouldered like a linebacker, enough to make any criminal think twice before angering him. Barry knew him to be an effective fighter, a loyal friend, and a dedicated husband and father. Former bodyguard turned crime fighter. The right hand of the Green Arrow.
*  *  *
"Always, Barry." She hugged him enthusiastically, reminding him of a sprite made of pure electricity and intellect. Beneath her open and expressive persona, she had one of the keenest minds in the country, particularly when it came to computer theory and network operations. Her blonde hair was pulled back and her eyes shone out from behind glasses. She broke off her hug and stared hard at his face.
*  *  *
The Green Arrow pulled back his hood and removed his mask to reveal Oliver Queen, the scion of one of Star City's wealthiest and most powerful families. Or at least they had been - the Queens had fallen on dark times, and he was one of the few who remained alive. Oliver was tall, powerful, and athletic. His face was sculpted and still, his dark hair closely cropped.

Steady, calm eyes regarded the room. Some saw quiet confidence in them, Barry knew, while others found them cold. He hadn't been able to decide. Still, because of that sturdiness, Oliver exuded an intoxicating, commanding poise. A hint of violence lurked beneath that, however, as if he was constantly on the verge of lashing out.

Edited April 9, 2017 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

From https://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/ ...

bones-bb asked:
Hey Marc! Sorry if this has already been asked and answered in some way, but what are the chances of Nate being Mari's grandfather? Or am I way off in thinking that? #LoT #Arrow #Vixen
I really need to master putting GIFs in these things.  Imagine a whistling one…

blackcanarydinah asked:
First, I just want to say Dinah (Juliana) is amazing and she's an amazing Black Canary and I hope we get to see more of her. Second, does Sara (Lance) have a middle name and do you know what it is? Season 5 is amazing!
So glad you like Dinah/Juliana.  We love her, too.
Sara DOES have a middle name.  In my perfect world, it’s my daughter Sara’s middle name.
And thanks for the kind words!

I'm assuming the whistling comment means Mari had a grandad Nate. No real surprise there.   I am a bit disappointed it means if I want Amaya around I'm stuck with Nate as well.  

Edited April 7, 2017 by BkWurm1

[GHScorpiosRule]

After reading all his responses, Guggenheim has only cemented what an uber passive aggressive douchetastic ratbastard LYING prickish fucktard he is.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

Here's how Diggle, Felicity and Oliver were introduced in Chapter 25 of The Flash: The Haunting of Barry Allen...

Thanks. That sprite made of pure electricity and intellect bit is terrific. But I wouldn't say that Dig is 6 foot 5 or that Oliver is dark haired.

[BkWurm1]

The dark haired thing I get cause often when it's short it looks dark but how hard is it to google how tall David Ramsey is?  Not hard.  He's 6'2"

[legaleagle53]

8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

After reading all his responses, Guggenheim has only cemented what an uber passive aggressive douchetastic ratbastard LYING prickish fucktard he is.

Don't sugarcoat it, @GHScorpiosRule -- tell us what you really think of him!  ;-)

[catrox14]

8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

After reading all his responses, Guggenheim has only cemented what an uber passive aggressive douchetastic ratbastard LYING prickish fucktard he is.

So what you're saying is that you are not a fan :P

[Sakura12]

This is why Sara is my one and only true Black Canary. 

[statsgirl]

I'll take your word for it.  I stopped watching his videos after  his "Why CW Arrow fans hate Felicity Smoak" one in which he says that" the grand majority of Arrow" viewers hate Felicity and explains why.

Edited April 9, 2017 by statsgirl

[lemotomato]

15 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'll take your word for it.  I stopped watching his videos after  his "Why CW Arrow fans hate Felicity Smoak" one in which he says that" the a grand majority of Arrow" viewers hate Felicity and explains why.

I'm not going to give it a click either, but who made the video? 

Gotta love someone that speaks on behalf of "the grand majority of Arrow viewers". Every time I see claims like that, I wonder what their source is. Or when we had an election for fandom representatives. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by lemotomato

[Sakura12]

I saw the video on Tumblr, I didn't click to see the rest of his videos. It just explains the 16 different martial arts Sara's used as well as the 5 forms that Caity Lotz is trained in. 

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

I'm not going to give it a click either, but who made the video?

Godzilla aka Adrian Acevedo-Smith.  I saw his "how many fighting styles does the Green Arrow have" which was interesting because I didn't know some of them.  He also has another vid on "Why Arrow seasons 1 and 2 are the best".  I presume one of the reasons is that those seasons Felicity stayed in her box with her crush on the unattainable Oliver Queen. (Yes, that's when he liked her.)

He thinks the show was ruined when Oliver started liking Felicity back but she didn't care about him at all in season 3 when he was crushing on her but dated Ray Palmer instead.  That's when I stopped watching.  He also thinks that the show should had Oliver with Laurel, not Felicity.

I'm sure the Sara vid is interesting. That's a lot of different fighting styles.

[wonderwall]

2 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I'm not going to give it a click either, but who made the video? 

 

[BkWurm1]

9 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Godzilla aka Adrian Acevedo-Smith.  I saw his "how many fighting styles does the Green Arrow have" which was interesting because I didn't know some of them.  He also has another vid on "Why Arrow seasons 1 and 2 are the best".  I presume one of the reasons is that those seasons Felicity stayed in her box with her crush on the unattainable Oliver Queen. (Yes, that's when he liked her.)

He thinks the show was ruined when Oliver started liking Felicity back but she didn't care about him at all in season 3 when he was crushing on her but dated Ray Palmer instead.  That's when I stopped watching.  He also thinks that the show should had Oliver with Laurel, not Felicity.

I'm sure the Sara vid is interesting. That's a lot of different fighting styles.

Didn't see his other video or I wouldn't have watched, but while he probably does a good job on identifying fighting styles, he's not one for accuracy clearly.   He calls Sara "Black Canary" through the whole video even though he also acknowledged she was only called Canary in the show and went on to be the White Canary.  I sort of liked the BC shade, but at the same time the inaccuracy (even if I agree with him in that) bugged me.  

[Sakura12]

He explained why he was calling Sara the Black Canary and I was fine with it. The fact that she knows 16 forms of martial arts is why she's the Black Canary in my eyes. I'm good with anyone giving CL her dues for playing the closest version to comic BC. 

[Mellowyellow]

11 hours ago, statsgirl said:

 

He thinks the show was ruined when Oliver started liking Felicity back but she didn't care about him at all in season 3 when he was crushing on her but dated Ray Palmer instead.  That's when I stopped watching.  He also thinks that the show should had Oliver with Laurel, not Felicity.

 

Is this why the Comic dudebros hate Felicity? Besides her not being the right comic character for the pairing?

They want a hot leather clad doormat who can fight but will take back the cheating, lying boyfriend over and over again and still pine for him on her deathbed even though he's moved on with someone else and is pining for someone else?

Felicity is reasonably sensible and tried to move on with Ray in s3, dumped Oliver’s lying ass when he lied to her about a huge thing. They basically hate her because she behaved like how any normal rational woman would.

Ha! I wonder if we should even watch these shows as a female. It's such a trial!

[Sakura12]

Of course they'd like Laurel, the one that would pine for the great hero until death. Never being able to move on always there waiting for him. While most women would try to move on if the guy was being dumbass and not realizing what being a relationship actually means. 

[tv echo]

TV shows like Arrow or The Flash have always been super powered soap operas – and there’s nothing wrong with that
Alex Moreland  YBN TV  9 April 2017
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/tv-shows-like-arrow-flash-always-super-powered-soap-operas-theres-nothing-wrong-155934138.html

Quote

Often there’s an inclination amongst comic book fans to decry TV shows they don’t like as being akin to soap operas. It was particularly prevalent during Arrow’s fourth season, when a focus on Felicity Smoak’s family lead to much outrage amongst (some sections of) the cult audience that the CW hit had built up.

The common complaint was that Arrow was no longer the programme they believed it to be, and was now a soap opera – they pointed to executive producer Wendy Mericle’s background on Desperate Housewives in particular, highlighted perceived similarities between Arrow and various soap operas, and continued to denigrate the programme based on this comparison.

Quality of Arrow aside, because that’s a thorny issue in and of itself, there was a fundamental mischaracterisation of the genre here: Arrow didn’t become a soap opera. Quite the opposite, in fact – Arrow had always been a soap opera.

And it’s far from the only one; The Flash, also, is a soap opera and always has been. The same is true of Gotham, or Smallville, or Supergirl. In fact, it’s not limited to these TV shows – it’s not difficult to argue that a lot of comic storylines are essentially soap operas, an obvious example being the story of Batman and his ‘batfamily’, as they’re often known.

At its most basic definition, a soap opera is an ongoing serial, focused on examining the personal lives of their characters. They’re often melodramatic, too, with a sensationalised and exaggerated plot.

What part of that doesn’t fit superhero programmes?

Arrow, from the beginning, was always about the personal lives of its characters. Yes, there’s the obvious angle of the love triangle between Oliver, Tommy and Laurel – but it’s not as though Oliver’s mission wasn’t deeply personally motivated, or inextricably tied to the affairs of his father. That’s demonstrably a soap opera plot, right from the beginning!

The same is true of The Flash, with its focus on Barry’s family, and the attempts at personal revenge made by Dr Wells. Equally, you’ve got the West family and their lives taking centre focus, with Barry’s unrequited love of Iris a key plotline across the course of the show.

Superheroes keep secrets, living double lives, and hiding parts of themselves from those around them that they love. That can surely be considered a soap opera story, no? And surely no one would ever argue that these superhero TV programmes don’t rely on sensationalised and exaggerated plotting – lest you forget, the Flash fought a race of sentient gorillas just a few weeks ago. Besides, everyone loves a good scenery chewing villain, and that’s the epitome of melodrama.
*  *  *
Well, the fact of the matter is that it isn’t a bad thing. While the term “soap opera” might have developed negative connotations for whatever reason, in the end it’s just a way of describing the genre – and it describes the CW superhero shows to a tee.

There’s nothing wrong with that, in the end – after all, Arrow was still a soap opera when people loved it – and a problem only arises when people begin to mistakenly believe this genre is the root of their problems. It’s really not – in fact, a lot of what they love about these shows is a facet of the soap opera tradition.

Edited April 10, 2017 by tv echo

[kismet]

16 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

This is why Sara Is my one and only true Black Canary. 

While I dont agree that knowing all these fighting styles definitely make her the one true BC. I will say It makes her the most beliavable and fun to watch.

It also reminds me of why I liked earlier season fight scenes better. They had technique, talent and finesse. Now It Is a bunch of relatively untrained people hitting or shooting each other up. The same reason It no longer matters who Is given a mask and who Is not. Talent and skill are no longer valued or Important on the show. They give out masks like Oprah gives out cars.

It also reminds me of why I am annoyed they never gave LL any background In martial arts. You know where the character Is headed, have her do It as a hobby or something after Tommy dies. I mean you have this uber talented and trained BC from the comics; and u give her TV character a night stick and boxing lessons for a few weeks. Its bullocks that we should be expected to believe she Is this amazing & talented superhero. The new one Is almost as pathetic but at least she has the sonic voice and years of police fight training.

[Guest]

I won't be giving that video a click but I definitely think Sara was the true BC, regardless of CL knowing certain fighting styles. I think she had the most believable origin story. She was trained. She had that history with Oliver, even though I didn't care for them together romantically. She always made sense as BC. Just IMO.

[Sakura12]

It's more then knowing multiple martial arts that make Sara the true BC. It's her personality and other traits that go along with the fighting skills that remind me of comic/animated BC.

I think we also got the true BC and GA team up with Sara and Oliver in season 2. They were dating and fighting crime, fulfilling their comic roots. Then they both moved on to their own thing, yet will always be there for each other if needed.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Sakura12

[kismet]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

It's more then knowing multiple martial arts that make Sara the true BC. It's her personalitys and other traits that go along with the fighting skills. 

Agree to some extent. But the show went out of Its way to make sure to never call her BC. AND then the show made the BC moniker a throwaway Insult from QL.

While I believe SL would have made a better BC. The fact Is she was never BC on the show. I know the BTS press used the titles Interchangeably. BUT on the show SL was only ever Canary & WC.

Now why the writers and showrunners decided to do that IS up there on the list of dumb things and ways they failed the BC.

They had a perfect BC and discarded her like trash. 

[Sakura12]

I don't care what the show called her. Sara's the true BC in the Arrowverse for me. The other 2 or 3 are pale imitations. Sara was the Canary and wore a Black outfit. 

[Mellowyellow]

I reckon there was some really shady bts stuff! How else can you explain them bringing CL back and giving her, her own show.

They clearly didn't dislike her but were forced to kill her character off. I don't think I even blame them. Something about that decision and the fact that she was given such a good role on LoT makes me think there was heaps of fishy stuff going on!

[statsgirl]

Sara not only has the best origin story and the most realistic fighting style, she's also a leader (see LoT: Captain Lance) and she has the tortured soul of the classic superhero model.  It's like they played a game and used up all their free gotchas on Sara and there was nothing left for Laurel but to inadequately SWF her.

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Didn't see his other video or I wouldn't have watched, but while he probably does a good job on identifying fighting styles, he's not one for accuracy clearly.   He calls Sara "Black Canary" through the whole video even though he also acknowledged she was only called Canary in the show and went on to be the White Canary.  I sort of liked the BC shade, but at the same time the inaccuracy (even if I agree with him in that) bugged me.  

I think that's a case of deliberately putting on blinkers to fit his preconceived ideas.  Sara acted like the Black Canary so in his mind, she is the Black Canary. Laurel was called the Black Canary but she's not.   He even excludes Sara's White Canary on LoT not because she's different but because she's the wrong colour.  It's picking and choosing to a ridiculous degree.

3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Is this why the Comic dudebros hate Felicity? Besides her not being the right comic character for the pairing?

They want a hot leather clad doormat who can fight but will take back the cheating, lying boyfriend over and over again and still pine for him on her deathbed even though he's moved on with someone else and is pining for someone else?

Felicity is reasonably sensible and tried to move on with Ray in s3, dumped Oliver’s lying ass when he lied to her about a huge thing. They basically hate her because she behaved like how any normal rational woman would.

That's exactly what they want.

It reminds me of health class in grade 11 when the teachers did a co-ed dating class and the boys were asked what they wanted in a girlfriend.  The general reply was someone who looked good and gave them status but who never bothered them made demands on them or expected them to change in any way.  Looks like some guys never grew out of that.

[way2interested]

[Chaser]

I've never been a big fan of the Thor movies, but that looks really good.

[Sakura12]

I found the Thor movies to be the worst of the Marvel line up. However that one looks good.

I don't think anyone really calls Sara White Canary on LoT. The only time I remember that name being used was in the crossover. She goes by Captain Lance now. 

[kismet]

24 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I've never been a big fan of the Thor movies, but that looks really good.

Agree, I have never liked the movies too much. But I have always loved Chris Hemsworth as Thor. Hopefully, this one is good.

17 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't think anyone really calls Sara White Canary on LoT. The only time I remember that name being used was in the crossover. She goes by Captain Lance now. 

They should have just kept her as Canary. They really never use WC anymore. And as a non-comic fan, I'm annoyed they stole a comic title and have not done anything related to that story. I can't imagine if there are WC comic fans that watch the show, they are happy about their character's title being used but her story not being told. Or if they really need colors just give her another non-taken color. SL looks good in most colors, they could have chosen any other color.

[Starfish35]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

And as a non-comic fan, I'm annoyed they stole a comic title and have not done anything related to that story. I can't imagine if there are WC comic fans that watch the show, they are happy about their character's title being used but her story not being told.

I don't see how they could possibly have told the comics WC story with Sara in that role, and I'm glad they didn't try, personally.  White Canary in the comics is a total villain, and seems to only exist as an antagonist for Black Canary. I don't think they ever intended for Sara to be any version of that character.  It might be the same code name, but it's completely different characters.  

This is something I've wondered about, but I don't know how much leeway they have in making up completely new code names.  Even Diggle's Spartan is taken from an obscure comic character if I understand correctly, although his story has no resemblance to that character's either.  Felicity's Overwatch is not, I don't think, but that might be the only one.  

This is not to say that I'm attached to the White Canary name.  I'm not fond of it, and I'm not fond of the WC costume either.  I'm just not sure, with Black off the table, how many options they had.  Could they have made her the Fushia Canary? (Lol) I just don't know.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

I really don't care about stealing comic titles and whatnot. But when stealing comic titles leads to white washing that's where I have an issue. The writers as well as caity really do seem a bit tone deaf about white washing tbh. It's a shame. 

[Starfish35]

To me it's only whitewashing if Caity was playing the same character.  She's not, so I don't see it as any different than the different people who have used the Green Lantern name, or the Batgirl name, etc.   Code names are reused all the time in comics. 

That's not to say that the shows haven't been guilty of that (Sin, for example, though I love Bex Taylor-Klaus).  I just don't think Sara using the WC name is the best example.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Starfish35

[leopardprint]

2 hours ago, Angel12d said:

She had that history with Oliver, even though I didn't care for them together romantically. She always made sense as BC. Just IMO.

I totally agree that the show really succeeded in making them platonic soulmates in a sense. They have the history as screw ups, betraying Laurel and then transforming to survive. You really got that they truly understood each other. It was an epic friendship. Laurel's BC was set up for failure from the getgo. They honestly should have had her disappear looking for Sara during the 5 years and then had her show up halfway through 1a fully trained then she gets the cry in S2 with Barry. 

[wonderwall]

I mean... They could've chosen ANY other color ANY other name - or even left her as the Canary because there clearly was a difference that the EPs/KC stressed... But nope! They decided to give her the moniker of an Asian woman. I still don't think that's cool at all. 

[Sakura12]

27 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

To me it's only whitewashing if Caity was playing the same character.  She's not, so I don't see it as any different than the different people who have used the Green Lantern name, or the Batgirl name, etc.   Code names are reused all the time in comics. 

That's not to say that the shows haven't been guilty of that (Sin, for example, though I love Bex Taylor-Klaus).  I just don't think Sara using the WC name is the best example.

I agree with that too. Sara is not playing White Canary from the comics, that character wasn't even given a name. She's just using the code name as many different people used the Flash and Green Lantern code name. 

To me whitewashing is when they use the characters name, country of origin and story then changed the characters race to White. Ghost in the Shell and Avatar the last Airbender whitewashed their characters. 

I wouldn't even consider Sin whitewashing since they told us her real name was Cindy, she was American and had no training with the LOA. 

[leopardprint]

I think they didn't want to leave her as "The Canary" because then "Black Canary" seems derivative (which she is). I agree they shouldn't have used an existing POC's name, they actually should have both been Black Canaries as a nod to the comic books. 

[statsgirl]

Could have been worse.  They could have made her the Pink Canary.

[leopardprint]

Green Canary. ?

[Starfish35]

31 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I wouldn't even consider Sin whitewashing since they told us her real name was Cindy, she was American and had no training with the LOA. 

Ehhh, yes, but Sin is clearly still meant to fill the same (or a very similar) role in the Black Canary story, back when they were still telling the BC story with Sara.   Black Canary adopts a very young Asian girl named Sin.  Sara took a teenage homeless girl nicknamed Sin under her wing.  Adopted daughter, adopted little sister.   

Whereas with Sara, there is literally no connection whatsoever between her and the comics version of White Canary, other than the code name.  

Edited April 10, 2017 by Starfish35

[Starfish35]

26 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Could have been worse.  They could have made her the Pink Canary.

 

8 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Green Canary. ?

Purple Polka Dot Canary. :D

Edited April 10, 2017 by Starfish35

[Delphi]

I don't really think White Canary is a character with legions of fans or anything,  she was pretty much a one and done villain. 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Delphi

[Starfish35]

6 minutes ago, Delphi said:

I don't really think the comic White Canary is a character with legions ood fans or anything,  she was pretty much a one and done villain. 

Yeah from what I could tell she only appeared in one Birds of Prey storyline written by Gail Simone, and never appeared again.

[Proteus]

2 hours ago, wonderwall said:

I really don't care about stealing comic titles and whatnot. But when stealing comic titles leads to white washing that's where I have an issue. The writers as well as caity really do seem a bit tone deaf about white washing tbh. It's a shame. 

There was no whitewashing so there's nothing to be addressed. Saras White Canary has zero to do with the comic character aside from using the same color name before Canary.

Caity Lotz nor the writers have done anything wrong.

[tennisgurl]

I'm really never sure what the writers were thinking with Sara. It just never made any sense. They gave her this whole big backstory with Oliver, gave her this badass training, showed her kicking ass and being awesome, and spent all this time with her, only to kill her off pointlessly to inspire her sister to take her place, despite said sister having no martial arts training whatsoever, having shown no interest in being a vigilante, and needing everyone to prop her up and say how awesome she was over and over, instead of showing it. But, when the fans got super pissed off and there was controversy about killing off their own LGBTQ character for stupid reasons in the lamest way possible, they brought her back. I think they liked Sara as a character, but they planned on her staying dead, and just being a plot device for Laurel to become the Black Canary. I just don't get why they spent so much time on Sara if they always meant to kill her, which I'm sure they did. They were probably really surprised to see how angry people were, and desperately tried to cover their asses, and when they started getting LoT ready, they realized they could stick her there, and leave Laurel as Black Canary on Arrow.

Sara even seemed closer to Oliver, as others have said. I just never bought that Laurel and Oliver were this great romance. I buy that they had history, and by the end they were friends and respected each other as team mates, but I never saw them as being really in love. Sara and Oliver seem to really get each other, in a way that no one else does. Not really in a romantic way, but as really close friends who are always going to be connected, no matter how long they go without seeing each other. I guess I ship them as friends?

Edited April 10, 2017 by tennisgurl

[statsgirl]

I'd like to know if it's DC who won't let them create a whole new name for what is essentially a new character or if the EPs want to use the names that exist in the comics to give their characters more validity.  (Overwatch is MG's book so I don't see that as counting.)

ETA:  I'm still hoping for that tell-all book but meanwhile, I wonder if at any time they intended making Sara the permanent Black Canary and DC/CW just wouldn't let them do it and insisted KC's Laurel had to be the Black Canary so they killed Sara off.

Edited April 10, 2017 by statsgirl