Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Sakura12]

Yep the women know their place on the Flash, they are only there to be love interests and support the hero no matter what stupid decision he's making, then disappear when the men need to talk about the important stuff. That's probably why the Flash is so beloved, it's keeping the comics back in the past. And maybe once a season the women can do something heroic or talk to each other so they can pretend they are keeping with the modern times.

Arrow has heroic women and people are ragging on it that it sucks now. I really hope the going back to the basics doesn't mean the comic basics. If Arrow becomes like the Flash then it will really be gone from my radar. 

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. One of the main reasons I always want live action adaptations to outright disrespect comic book canon is because comic book canon is very very rarely on the side of women/minorities.

[SmallScreenDiva]

18 hours ago, foreverevolving said:

Wow, Grant DOES generate more heat with Naya. So that answers my question as to whether he can with other partners. Also, are those the actual 2Cellos guys?

[catrox14]

Just some thinky thoughts re the Women in Arrow vs Women in The Flash

When I look at the women in Arrow most of them have layers and they actually DO things and make their own decisions, Thea too.  Even as I couldn't stand Laurel , I think she was shown to be her own messed up person even if I didn't KNOW WHO that messed up person was, she was still making some of her own bad decisions much like Thea and Moira. They also were given some redemption as clunky and bad as it was. I don't consider Felicity being unaware of BM as something sexist because it had to be that way to tear down Oliver to break them up eventually. It was stupid and cliched but I still don't think it shows the same kind of dismissive attitude towards women as the Flash does.

Moira
Thea
Laurel
Felicity
Sara
Helena
McKenna
Cupid
Lyla
Amanda Waller
Shado- probably the worst because of how she started and where she ended up) 

Baby Mama - She is the outlier because her role is stupid and contrived and her existence in the show nearly derailed the entire thing and they have to do a LOT to smooth my ruffled feathers. Yet she did have autonomy because she lied for years about William. So I hate her but she is her own person.

Whilst they are all tied to Oliver because Oliver is the main character (or at least he was!)  they still had their own internal life.  At least that's how they came across to me. Even with Thea who has struggled with a severe lack of agency more than most did make her own stupid decisions to use drugs and drive. She did make a choice to become Speedy in the end and made a choice to take a break. And most importantly she did finally renounce Malcolm as her father. That's progress IMO.

The best part is that they were NOT perfect paragons of virtue. Yes, there were absolutely sidelined and mistreated at times and Laurel notwithstanding, I have LIKED or loved to hate most of the women that have appeared on Arrow. I have been able to find something interesting or the potential for something interesting even Poppy could have been interesting. I LIKE the women in Arrow. I don't really LIKE the women of the Flash because they seem like such non-entities to me.

The loss of Moira hurts me deeply because she was IMO the most compelling female on the show who had so much more to do. She wasn't answering to Malcolm because he was a man but rather because he was batshit crazy and a danger to her family. She finally stood up to Malcolm, her nemesis, and yet he wasn't the one that killed her. She wasn't punished by the man who fathered one of her children, and he had arguably more of a reason to kill Moira than Slade. To me even in death, Moira had some measure of autonomy, as much as one could being kidnapped and threatened with death. But she chose to sacrifice herself to save her children and I think Robert would have made the same choice.

Arrow needs another Moira. I wonder if Thea could become the new Moira at some point. That would be kind of cool. 

Just my up way too early on a Sunday to watch Wimbledon thinky thoughts.

Edited July 10, 2016 by catrox14
Grammar and stuff

[ruby24]

See, I don't even know if it's a conscious decision that females belong on the sidelines, or just lack of interest in the two women they have on the show. I tend to think it's the latter, because we all saw the way the writers/producers pounced on the Felicity character as soon as they saw what EBR brought to it.

Is it up to the actors to prove they can be more interesting than what's written for them, perhaps? They obviously came to love Cisco, imo for similar Felicity-esque reasons, because Carlos Valdes showed how funny he is with a one-liner.

I think it might be that. I think Candice Patton is good and can be great when they give her more to do, like in the E2 episodes and the Kevin Smith one (that one had to be her best E1 Iris ever), but I don't know that she came in and did the EBR/CV thing where she brought extra attention to herself based on her own special delivery of what might not have been on the page already. And I've mentioned before, I think Danielle Panabaker is a flat out terrible actress, so that's sort of a lost cause there.

It's kind of unfair in a way, because there are plenty of actors who are only as great as what they're given to do, and not everybody can jump in and bring something extra to what's not even there. That's a little more rare, I think.

[AyChihuahua]

Candice Patton is an excellent actress, and Iris is boring as hell. So I think it's definitely on the writers. They are obsessed with Barry and his twelve thousand daddies.

[bettername2come]

They need to write better for both women. Danielle Panabaker is a weak actress, but in nearly everything I've seen her in she's better than this - and that includes Lifetime and Disney Channel movies. What bugs me is that Caitlin reminds me so much of Simmons from Agents of Shield, only without a storyline.

[kismet]

Yea I put it on the writers. Flash is very Barry and my Dads heavy. It is sorta like "3 men and a baby" most of the the times. You'll never hear me say that the Flash is not enough about the titular character.

An actor can elevate her material, but she needs screentime. Sometimes, it is easy to forget Iris is even on the show. Thank goodness they brought in her brother last season, otherwise she could have been on assignment in Ivy Town finding the deeper secrets of slow cookers.

I think DP is a boring actress in this role, she's got the screentime but no spark or storyline. I just don't think she is well cast for Caitlin.

[ruby24]

I'm guessing Iris is probably going to have much more screentime this season, since they no longer have to do "other love interests" for Barry or her. It was obvious Patty Spivot took over her screen time in Season 2, at least for the first half of last year. 

But actually, the first half of the first season Iris was in it quite a bit, despite being excluded from the secret. That was when people complained not about her screentime, but about her being annoying because she was left out of the loop.

Now, she's in on it and there's no replacement/stalling love interest, so I do believe her role will increase. I just think they ought to probably make her a cop instead of a journalist, because I don't think they know what to do with the reporter thing. But as a cop on Earth-2 she was great, so...maybe that's the way to go.

And you know what? Assuming there's going to be some changes after Barry fixes the timeline, that would be a very convenient way to do it, lol. Iris is the same, but now she's training to be a cop or something. Voila. 

I'm expecting Barry to have been gone for six months or so by the time he gets back, too. He won't go back to the exact minute he left I bet, because they want it to line up with all the other shows as usual. So when he does come back, there's now new changes in his own world that he has to catch up on (but nothing that alters core relationships, probably).

Edited July 11, 2016 by ruby24

[apinknightmare]

10 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I'm guessing Iris is probably going to have much more screentime this season, since they no longer have to do "other love interests" for Barry or her. 

I wouldn't count on that. At all.

[kismet]

I don't think Patty Spivot took any of Iris's screen time. And at least she was an interesting female with an actual storyline that had more notes about her life than others, so that was a welcome change. Baby steps Flash team.

Big hopes for Iris as always, but little expectation. Like ant mound high after a breeze goes by.

[ruby24]

Oh, I think it was 100% obvious that Patty Spivot took over Iris's screentime. At least for those 10 episodes she was on.

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, ruby24 said:

Oh, I think it was 100% obvious that Patty Spivot took over Iris's screentime. At least for those 10 episodes she was on.

What about the other 13? Genuinely curious b/c I don't watch the show anymore

[ruby24]

Well, yeah, after she left Iris suddenly had more screen time again. 

[quarks]

I have the U.S. Olympics women gymnastics trials on in the background and now I want all of these women bouncing around on the floor to come and be stunt people on all of the Arrowverse shows.

[wonderwall]

19 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Well, yeah, after she left Iris suddenly had more screen time again. 

Don't you think, out of everyone on the show, it's actually Joe that takes away Iris' screentime?

Also, blaming it on Patty just shows to me that Iris is only good as Barry's love interest. Why can't she have meaning outside of her relationship with Barry? That's sort of the issue. I even heard that when Mama West came back to town, they barely touched upon how Iris felt. So the issue is MUCH deeper than another female character being Barry's love interest.

Edited July 11, 2016 by wonderwall

[kismet]

For me, its Joe that sucks up her screentime he did it with her mother & her brother. Iris could have a plethora of story outside of BA, love interest role and spot holder for the next mask. Sadly, I think the writers don't feel that way. They have a very narrow vision of what they want for the character.

[Starfish35]

Bringing Skye/Daisy discussion over from Small Talk:

I think for me, the turning point for me with her was the episode where she hunted down that guy from his online postings, and scared him into giving her information about his group.  That just crossed a line for me I guess.  Yeah, the guy was a jerk.  But I really felt like she crossed a line with that, and even when the mission blew up in her face, it felt like she never suffered any consequences.  And the closer we got to the end of the season, the more it seemed like everyone was obsessed with Daisy.  Coulson was obsessed with her, Lincoln was obsessed with her, Mack was obsessed with her, HIVE/Ward was obsessed with her.  Even Lash sacrificed himself for her. And I suppose, if I found her a more interesting character myself it wouldn't annoy me.  But I don't find her all that interesting, I find most of her relationships to be as dull as dirt, and I don't think Chloe Bennett is that interesting of an actress.  I'm fine with her as part of the group, but I'm just really done with the story revolving around her latest drama every season.  *shrug*  Everyone's mileage is going to vary.  I don't hate her.  But to be honest, I wouldn't have been at all upset for her to have been the one who died, either.  

[tv echo]

Suicide Squad’s TV and Animated Appearances Did Not Inform Movie At All
Russ Burlingame- 07/11/2016
http://comicbook.com/dc/2016/07/10/suicide-squad-s-tv-and-animated-appearances-did-not-inform-movie/

Quote

"They're completely separate," producer Richard Suckle told reporters during a set visit. "They're treated completely separately. Whatever similarities or differences that may actually occur are really coincidental. What we're doing is what we're doing. What they do on Arrow, like when you see Amanda Waller or whomever it may be, that's their version, that's their incarnation of Amanda Waller or whichever character you would necessarily see that may also appear in other versions in other medium."

Of course, you're not seeing Amanda Waller –or Deadshot, or Captain Boomerang – on Arrow anymore, as it seems the TV producers have opted to kill off or write off most of the Suicide Squad characters so as to not deal with "brand confusion" stemming from an upcoming movie.

SCOTT EASTWOOD's SUICIDE SQUAD Character = GREEN ARROW?
by Chris Arrant, EditorDate: 11 July 2016 Time: 05:00 PM ET
http://www.newsarama.com/30070-scott-eastwood-s-suicide-squad-character-green-arrow.html

Quote

Early paparazzi set photos from May 2015 caught Eastwood in full military garb with the initials "GQ" emblazoned where typically a soldier's last name would go. Then on Saturday, German theater chain Cinemaxx listed Eastwood's character as "Lieutenant 'GQ' Edwards," something that embargoed set reports that began being published Monday have corroborated.

...but who the heck is Lieutenant "GQ" Edwards? There's no character by that name in DC Comics. Some might simply say it's a new character a la Arrow's Diggle, introduced to serve a plot point where a pre-existing character couldn't. But not so according to Suicide Squad producer Andy Horwitz, who infers that the true identity of Eastwood's character is a mystery.

"No one has guessed right," Horwitz told ComicBook. "I've seen some of the guesses [online] and no one has guessed right."
*  *  *
But if Lt. "GQ" Edwards has an established DC identity to be "guessed right," we have one pet theory that hasn't yet gotten any play yet: Oliver Queen, a.k.a. the Green Arrow.

What made us think of Green Arrow? To be upfront the 'Q'. There aren't many comic book characters with a Q in their name, so could "GQ" be a sly dare-you-to-guess-it nod to Green-Queen?

Edited July 12, 2016 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

That is...idiotic. First, it's imply, not infer. Second, when something is written "Lieutenant 'Whoever' Blank," the part inside single quotes is a nickname. See, e.g., "Templeton 'Face' Peck." "GQ" is the guy's nickname, presumably bc he looks like a GQ magazine model.

(Re idiocy, not you, obviously - the writer.)

As an aside, I'm working from home today, and the evil truck episode of Supernatural is on. The one with the actress who plays Vixen. Holy CRAP on a cracker is she terrible.

Edited July 12, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[SmallScreenDiva]

Oh, I remember that ep ... she was bad. She's improved ... slightly.

[FurryFury]

She wasn't good on The 4400 as well. It's quite possible LoT dodged a bullet with her being unavailable, as the actress they've cast seems to be well-regarded due to her previous work.

[Sakura12]

I still remember how awful she was on the 4400 and I never got past that. The actress playing the character when she was a baby was better. That kid could give some great evil eyes. 

In other news it looks like Kid Flash is showing up on the Flash this season. Not having a full cowl looks kind of stupid and it looks like they chopped up the Reverse Flash costume to make this one.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Sakura12

[manbearpig]

I don't remember her performance, but I still find it hilarious that an episode with a racist truck made it to air. I know finding stuff for twenty two episodes is hard, but...no.

[Starfish35]

Wally West gets a costume, although it's unknown whether this is just for Flashpoint or not.

http://tvline.com/2016/07/12/wally-west-kid-flash-photo-the-flash-season-3-spoilers/

[FurryFury]

5 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I still remember how awful she was on the 4400 and I never got past that. The actress playing the character when she was a baby was better. That kid could give some great evil eyes. 

In other news it looks like Kid Flash is showing up on the Flash this season. Not having a full cowl looks kind of stupid and it looks like they chopped up the Reverse Flash costume to make this one.

Ugh. The character bores me to death and the costume sucks. I'd be mildly interested in Jesse Quick but this dude doesn't do anything for me at all.

[Starfish35]

Quote

Not having a full cowl looks kind of stupid and it looks like they chopped up the Reverse Flash costume to make this one.

It's not practical not having the full cowl, but I think that is the classic Kid Flash costume.  It's almost exactly like Wally's costume on Young Justice, except without the googles.  Edit: And that version had yellow boots instead of red.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

Hopefully he's just a Flashpoint outcome. Otherwise I feel Iris will be pushed even further back because Joe has an actual superhero son to dote on now along with his pseudo son Barry. 

[way2interested]

Remember that time they released the sidekick's costume that was set to premiere in 301 a few weeks before SDCC? Am I referencing Arrow or this moment right here? Who knows?

I'm not bitter or knocking the costume or anything. I'm just laughing at these too easy comparisons. 

[Trini]

Both shows have the same PR person, right?

[quarks]

It usually seems as if the entire network has just one PR person. But there's two.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, quarks said:

It usually seems as if the entire network has just one PR person. But there's two.

I know there is Suzanne Gomez  but who's the other one?

[dtissagirl]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I know there is Suzanne Gomez  but who's the other one?

There's also a dude that does publicity stuff for the DCTV shows. The CW's PR site lists everyone and which shows they're responsible for, it's a teeny tiny corporate team: http://www.cwtvpr.com/the-cw/contacts

[Delphi]

Mandy Ellis,  but she doesn't handle any of the super shows. 

[statsgirl]

On 7/10/2016 at 3:04 AM, kismet said:

I don't think the Flash audience or writers room could handle a passionate or sexy Barry... There would be too many cooties. And it's really hard to treat/cure cooties. :)

This is the real problem with the Flash, that it's basically a show for 12 year old boys.  It's all about the bromance and the daddy issues and the dead mommy issues.

I liked Patty but the show didn't do her any favours. As a female she wasn't allowed to have any real part in any storyline other than being a temporary love interest to stall Barry/Iris (the first of many I bet).  She was Joe's partner but he wouldn't tell her Barry was The Flash, she was Barry's girlfriend but he lied to her even when she found him out.  They wanted her to be clueless enough to shoot well, which is disrespecting her character.

There was no need for Iris to lose any screen time because of Patty.  The problem was, and always has been, is that Iris is only important in terms of the men in her life -- Joe, Eddie, Barry and now Wally.  I'm sure given 20 minutes a number of posters here could write really good storylines for Iris but the truth is that AK and his writers don't care about any of the women on the show other than set dressing.

I was worried when I heard that AK was leaving Arrow to work on The Flash but now I think Arrow really dodged a bullet. Under him, Felicity would have been relegated to being a Caitlin with the teasing of being Oliver's Iris while the real work was done by Oliver and Diggle.

I think that also affects Supergirl, which AK also has his hands on.  Yes, it has great female characters (Kara, Cat, Alex) although I suspect that's because Berlanti had his hand on it, but the romantic relationship on that show suck as badly as they do on The Flash.  As Laura Hurley said, she can't root for Kara/James because he's an adult and she acting like a kid.

[Trini]

39 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think that also affects Supergirl, which AK also has his hands on.  Yes, it has great female characters (Kara, Cat, Alex) although I suspect that's because Berlanti had his hand on it, but the romantic relationship on that show suck as badly as they do on The Flash.  As Laura Hurley said, she can't root for Kara/James because he's an adult and she acting like a kid.

Besides Berlanti, I'd also give credit to Ali Adler; and while Supergirl isn't perfect, it doing better than some of the other DC shows.

[AyChihuahua]

17 minutes ago, Trini said:

Besides Berlanti, I'd also give credit to Ali Adler; and while Supergirl isn't perfect, it doing better than some of the other DC shows.

It was on a network with a much, much larger reach. Where it was not successful enough to remain. It will be a much more even playing field when it's on the CW as well.

[way2interested]

36 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I was worried when I heard that AK was leaving Arrow to work on The Flash but now I think Arrow really dodged a bullet. Under him, Felicity would have been relegated to being a Caitlin with the teasing of being Oliver's Iris while the real work was done by Oliver and Diggle.

I think that also affects Supergirl, which AK also has his hands on.  Yes, it has great female characters (Kara, Cat, Alex) although I suspect that's because Berlanti had his hand on it, but the romantic relationship on that show suck as badly as they do on The Flash.  As Laura Hurley said, she can't root for Kara/James because he's an adult and she acting like a kid.

I'm never one to ever really blame one sole person entirely for how a show turns out, so I'm not really quick to blame AK with Flash's women problem, especially when Flash had 3 additional showrunners for s2. At this point, it just seems to me like its the culture of the show in general with no one person causing it and no one really being able to change it. I do wonder if they even notice or if they think this is a spot that might need improving in the midst of all the other male characters' stories. 

Like @Trini said, Supergirl has Ali Adler as a prominent showrunner, so I would give partial credit of the female characters to her, where I would actually give partial blame of the Kara/James romance to GB. AK and Adler deserve some blame for the awkward execution of the romance, but the idea that Kara/James was always going to be focal romance/subplot, along with large decisions about how to execute it (i.e. introducing comic character Lucy Lane) sounds like it would come from the original developer/showrunner of the show and its characters, GB (along with AK and Adler).  

[kismet]

Can someone explain to me why Wally's costume is missing a top? It looks like an overgrown turtleneck with a hole for his face. I see no functional or non-functional purpose to chop off the top. Unless running fast requires one's hair follicles to have necessary breathing room?

[Trini]

It's the classic Kid Flash (usually Wally West) costume:

[kismet]

Thanks for the info, so its classic in its stupidity.

[kismet]

 Bittersweet casting news from SG. I have loved Ian Gomez since Felicity and he will make a lovely addition to the show. I do think him & MB will have amazing chemistry. However, I am really sad that the show needed to find someone to replace Cat Grant. Although I saw that coming from the minute they lost their CBS & LA homebase. I hope they accommodate and include her in a substantial role in whatever way possible, she was one the best parts of SG.

http://zap2it.com/2016/07/supergirl-snapper-carr-karas-new-boss-what-about-cat-grant/

[Trini]

With the TV Guide Comic Con covers, I don't think it's any sort of diss toward Arrow just because other shows were chosen. It's had covers before, and there will be features about the show in the magazine itself. WB picked the 4 shows they wanted to promote. Maybe they factored in which shows/covers were popular last year; maybe they wanted variety and not only comic book shows; or the picked the shows aligned with the target audience they want to reach.  ::shrug::

[Delphi]

Ugh,  I knew it was coming,  and I love Ian,  but c'mon! half the reason I was watching was for Cat.  I may tune in for the premier but I doubt it's going to be able to hold my interest. 

[Sakura12]

Cat was one of the only reasons I watched Supergirl. I liked the sister relationship between Alex and Kara, I really enjoyed the relationship between Cat and Kara. I guess I'll only be watching the big crossover event. 

[catrox14]

I don't get why they couldn't find another female boss for Kara. There are so many excellent actresses that could be Cat 2.0.  OH I have the answer. Susannah Thompson as Moira Queen on E2 running a media conglomerate instead of Queen Consolidated.

[thegirlsleuth]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't get why they couldn't find another female boss for Kara. There are so many excellent actresses that could be Cat 2.0.  OH I have the answer. Susannah Thompson as Moira Queen on E2 running a media conglomerate instead of Queen Consolidated.

Holy crap that's genius.

[FurryFury]

I wasn't THAT big of a fan of Cat. And I still think she'll be present, even if in reduced capacity. So I don't mind a new boss. Who knows, maybe he'll be better.

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

Holy crap that's genius.

Heh. Well, garsh, thanks! (/blushes).

As much as I like Cat, I wasn't much of a Flockhart fan. And selfishly I look for any and all opportunities to bring back Moira. She was my 2nd favorite character after Oliver. And I just LURVE Susannah Thompson. I've never not liked her any anything. But I highly doubt it would happen because Susannah was pretty pissed off when they killed off Moira and she wouldn't come back for a cameo. But a gal can dream you know?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, FurryFury said:

I wasn't THAT big of a fan of Cat. And I still think she'll be present, even if in reduced capacity. So I don't mind a new boss. Who knows, maybe he'll be better.

I enjoyed Kara having a female boss. It's a different dynamic than a male boss. I appreciated that Cat, whilst being an asshole much of the time, did IMO try to guide Kara in a way that would help her succeed.  Too often I see female boss/female subordinate relationships portrayed as being a completely contentious with no redeeming value where the boss is threatened by the other woman, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, too much like mother/daughter or sisters.  I don't care for either of those portrayals so for me Cat and Kara was a nice change of pace. 

Edited July 13, 2016 by catrox14